UK officials caught napping ahead of 2G and 3G doomsday

A worrying number of UK authorities are still unaware of the impending switch-off of 2G and 3G mobile networks, according to Local Government Association (LGA) figures. While 38 percent of respondents were fully aware, 27 percent were only partially aware, and 7 percent had no idea at all that the axe would be falling by 2033 …

[cyberdemon]

Traffic lights

For my sins, I worked at a traffic controller company for a couple of years.

The majority of traffic controllers, especially outside big cities, use 2G or 3G for remote monitoring and optimisation (control is always local, no 'italian job' possible, but they do rely on timing adjustments to optimise throughput). If a grey controller cabinet has two round or square black plastic blobs on it, one will be a GPS antenna just for an accurate clock, and the other is a 2G/3G antenna.

If the 2G/3G were to go away, then the local council's traffic controls maintenance dept would have no info except complaints from the public about borked signals, and optimisation along long roads would suffer slightly. Probably enough to cause congestion though.

[heyrick]

Re: Traffic lights

"Probably enough to cause congestion though."

In the brief time when I listened to Eagle radio from Guildford (before Bauer took it over and broke it), I used to be amused by the evening traffic report and the number of times there was heavy congestion around the Clock House roundabout in Farnborough. At the time, twenty years since I'd been there, and it was still causing traffic trauma...

[John Robson]

Re: Traffic lights

"At the time, twenty years since I'd been there, and it was still causing traffic trauma..."

Only to the extent tolerated by motorists.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Traffic lights

still lots of traffic around the clock house round about, but there are no traffic lights there.

a mess is the Queens (hotel) roundabout where they have put traffic lights which are totally unneeded

another mess is alexander road leading to Lynchford road where they have put in an unnecessary bus lane, removed parking from 1 side, narrowed the road on the other and put in zebra crossing at the junction to the roundabout that is barely a car length from the roundabout making the roundabout exit to alexander road dangerous to pedestrians

the bigger mess is the Lynchford road going to the a331 where they have caused huge disruption, digging up the road, laying it back with no discernible improvement.

70 weeks and £13m that could have been spent on other better things plus the extra pollution and delays for nothing.

https://www.hampshirelive.news/news/hampshire-news/north-camp-businesses-feel-misled-8826713

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-66553873

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: Lychford Road

The original plan was to widen it westbound into two lanes. They cut down a load of mature yet sound trees and started work.

Then they realised that there was not enough room without taking at least 1.5m of the road away on the other side and shifting it all over. So they went back to replacing the main sewer that runs under the westbound carriageway and... 70 weeks later the road is still closed westbound (or was last weekend).

Another example of the lack of joined up thinking by Government, Local Government and companies. Just like the smartmeter fiasco.

All those lovely smartmeters that use 2G/3G are going to have to be replaced. Guess who is going to pay for it? Yep, we are.

[stiine]

Re: Lychford Road

Don't feel special. The city I lived in in 1979 repaved a main 4-lane road and less than a month after that project was completed, they dug it up to replace the storm drain pipe down the middle of the southbound lanes... Yes, both projects were in the budget for that year, and both were on the DoT schedule and NO ONE questioned why they would repave the road just to dig it up again...

As for the smartmeters, do you think they'll replace the entire meters? Or just the electronics package?

[Stylee]

Re: Lychford Road

Usually replace the whole meter. It is possible to replace the communications module, but the meter batteries only have an expected 10-15 year lifespan and often don't last that long

[vogon00]

Re: Lychford Road

I can't name names here, but I can tell you that there are at least two utilitiy companies switching to/introducing metering over LoRA. There are a couple of networks building out infrastructure in targeted areas to accommodate this. It's a pretty good technology fit for metering, which is generally low bandwidth (comparatively tiny PDUs/packets of just a few bytes), sent very infrequently. LoRA is ideal for that sort of 'low rate telemetry' stuff. Considering the RF power used, the freqs used and the link budget available, the achievable ranges are ... Very impressive!

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Lychford Road

Yeah, but you need a 100m aerial strung out down the street from each house :-)

[nijam]

Re: Lychford Road

> As for the smartmeters...

Like most gadgets marketed with the word "smart", they're smart only in comparision to the people whose choose to buy/specify/madate them.

[hoopsa]

Re: Lychford Road

Misread that as '70 years later' and wasn't unduly surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Lychford Road

The original plan was to widen it westbound into two lanes. They cut down a load of mature yet sound trees and started work.

Then they realised that there was not enough room without taking at least 1.5m of the road away on the other side and shifting it all over.

The fact that they didn’t know there was enough room before starting the project is the true insult here, why embark on such a project with such disruption to not only those that live on that stretch of road but residents of the whole town and all those that commute in for work.

It’s increased pollution, forced people to move home, reduced home prices (likely gone back up a bit now their on start parking is safe) and caused misery for all yet is still not open after over 70 weeks and millions of pounds of unnecessary work because they didn’t realise they needed an extra 1.5m for 2 lanes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Traffic lights

I thought Princess Parkway in Manchester was bad, but 20 years stuck on a roundabout in Farnborough is a shade worse...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Traffic lights

GPS spoofing is, of course, a pretty widely known thing...

Gamers looking to cheat at Pokemon Go amongst other examples did rather spread the knowledge.

[Andy The Hat]

Going to be awkward

turning off 2g and 3g where there's no decent 4g let alone 5g is a recipe for disaster. I'm sitting here now with barely a signal registering on a 2g phone so I use phone semaphore most of the time but it's nice to know that, as it's also used as an emergency phone with the best signal, when 2g is completely turned off we'll be totally buggered ...

Basic premise of any system replacement is to install the replacement before killing the existing service to customers. So much for that idea.

[Chloe Cresswell]

Re: Going to be awkward

My primary phone has a 5G sim in it, and there's still lumps of Lincolnshire where it's on 2G *nods*

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Going to be awkward

there's still lumps of Lincolnshire where it's on 2G

There's still lumps of Lincolnshire where it's on runner with cleft stick

[Chloe Cresswell]

Re: Going to be awkward

That's Boston. As the joke goes, you know what Boston got in the late 70s? A road out...

[Rich 11]

Re: Going to be awkward

Ah, 1978. The year from which you could cycle to school on market day and no longer fear being crushed to death by agricultural lorries or choking on their fumes in a medieval bottleneck. It's 'elf and safety gorn maad, I tell you!

[NeilPost]

Re: Going to be awkward

You should not be choking on their ‘fumes’ (that’s an old tired trope) as Diesel Particulate Filters have been mandatory for Lorries for ages. Yes there are still some old ones on the roads but it’s orders of magnitude better than it used to be even a decade ago.

[Chloe Cresswell]

Re: Going to be awkward

You don't seem to have read it properly.

[Rich 11]

Re: Going to be awkward

I've given you my exact personal experience, from every Wednesday morning during school term, in Boston's Strait Bargate when I was 11 and 12 years old. Traffic usually ran slowly but smoothly enough through the centre of town, if unpleasantly, four days of the week, but on market days it was a nightmare. Once enough of John Adams Way had been built I could cycle along the stretches they weren't still working on (vehicles were excluded by the concrete blocks placed at each junction), but before that the construction traffic made the side roads as risky as the town centre.

[wolfetone]

Re: Going to be awkward

"turning off 2g and 3g where there's no decent 4g let alone 5g is a recipe for disaster"

Indeed.

Had to call the doctors this morning on my way to work. For most of the journey I spent most of my time on 3G. Even at points when I managed to speak to the rottweiler receptionist "care navigator" I was in an area of only 2/3 bars on 3G.

It's a bloody joke that the mobile network in this country, with more and more things depending on it, isn't treated as an essential utility. Maybe when this shit show begins someone will take notice and make it happen. My breath won't be held for it though.

[Tim Warren]

Re: Going to be awkward

I type this on a 3G signal because the 4G signal here in my Cambridge office is unworkable. I've had to force my Galaxy S23 Ultra to 3G only because it will cling to 4G despite zero bars signal and will give me "no internet" errors, yet the 3G signal is 3 out of 4 bars and works just fine. FFS. A situation repeated in several cities and towns. I can't change the phone's affinity for network types - probably set by the network itself.

[druck]

Re: Going to be awkward

Everytime a new G comes along the phones which support it will always desperately try to connect to a week signal and ignore the much stronger G-1, to pretend there is more coverage than there is.

[Mike 137]

Re: Going to be awkward

"a recipe for disaster"

The recipe book is replete with disasters. Turning off POTS will disable huge numbers of devices such as vulnerable person alerts and burglar alarms, and will render emergency comms only available while mains power is up and running, unless folks buy massive UPS devices (which incidentally often don't work well over long periods with small loads). Furthermore, nG connectivity (regardless of the n in question) is not assuredly available everywhere or at all times. The opportunities for adverse consequences are huge.

However the 'powers' believe that "everyone" will have continuous reliable access to high tech comms without question, which is why the NHS recently decided that the only way to book a medical appointment is via an online portal, thereby excluding any sick person without access to (or ability to use) a computer. You're on your own now unless you're "up to date" and not disabled.

[NeilPost]

Re: Going to be awkward

BoJo promised FTTP to 100% of the country by 2025 don’t worry. It’s going really well. Just like Brexit.

https://www.theregister.com/2019/07/17/boris_johnsons_promise_of_fullfibre_by_2025_is_pie_in_the_sky/

[MatthewSt]

Re: Going to be awkward

The _idea_ is that the 3G signal will be replaced by a 4G signal. So you'll go to bed with a 3G signal one day, and wake up with an "improved" 4G signal the following day. Same mast in use, same frequency in use, just different protocol on top of it.

[RockBurner]

Re: Going to be awkward

That's only of use if there's any form of signal at all.

The vast majority of the city closest to me (Chichester - ok, it's more of a small town than a city...) has no signal whatsoever (from EE at least), and what there is is very slow.

[Ian 55]

Re: Going to be awkward

Have I misunderstood that the higher frequencies used mean that you need more 5G masts than 4G ones and more 4G than 3G etc?

Similarly, they'll be an 'off' period while the actual kit is swapped, won't there?

[Orv]

Re: Going to be awkward

The higher protocols don't necessarily mean higher frequencies. It's just that you won't get the speed benefits of 5G on lower frequencies, where there's less bandwidth.

[vogon00]

Re: Going to be awkward

The difference in 'nG' is largely due to the changes/improvements in the RF side of things which allow you to squeeze more 'bits' into any given amount of spectrum/bandwidth. The more 'bits/Hz' you get, the faster things can go.

Improvements in RF transceiver technology have largely driven this, as they enable the use of more complex modulation schemes that carry more bits/Hz than before, whilst increasing the resistance to RF effects like multipath fading etc. If you fancy a headache, go read up on OFDM and QAM.

The reason for going ever upwards in frequency is that the higher you go, the more spectrum bandwidth - and therefore bits/Hz - is available. However, higher freqs run out of puff faster (AKA propogate worse) than lower ones, which is why you need a higher number of cells to give useable RF performance to a given geographical area, even with sectorised antennas and the really funky beam steering going on. Don't forget this works two ways - handset to cell and cell to handset. This all adds up to more capex for the operators, which is why...

We lost some terrestrial TV spectrum a while back so the operators could have access to more (comparatively) low freq/longer range spectrum to play with. 2G and 3G are elderly now and inhabit the lower parts of the spectrum available for mobile/cellular services....and are probably on the chopping block so that their valuable spectrum can be (re-)used for the more spectrally efficient and resilient newer 'G'enerations.

RF spectrum is in short supply and already congested. If you want to know how awkward this can get - in the UK at least - go have a look at the Ofcom spectrum interactive map. You've got to love this RF stuff. It's another example of a very analogue lower layer carrying the Digital World on it's back. Never doubt that analogue rules the roost!

[Alan Brown]

Re: Going to be awkward

The G is "generation", not frequency

5G signals are availabile in some areas on the old analogue TV bands - works better in rural zones, etc

1G is AMPS, 2G is basic GSM - and to be honest I'm surprised, as I thought that'd been sunsetted a decade ago

[Someone Else]

Re: Going to be awkward

Basic premise of any system replacement is to install the replacement before killing the existing service to customers.

Welcome to Business Thinking in the 21st Century!

_{Wait...what? Isn't "Business Thinking" an oxymoron? with the emphasis on the last two syllables}

[NeilPost]

Re: Going to be awkward

They are obviously doing it Agile.

[TheRealRoland]

Re: Going to be awkward

JTL instead of JIT?

(Just Too Late vs Just In Time?)

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Going to be awkward

Basic premise of any system replacement is to install the replacement before killing the existing service to customers.

Did anybody tell Beeching?

[NeilPost]

Re: Going to be awkward

Esp. With the in parallel Openreach 21CNing the phone network to digital only, no resilience (unless you can leverage a UPS for ‘vulnerable people’ out of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Going to be awkward

The place I was at at the weekend had no mobile signal whatsoever - failing to cover an entire village. Climbing onto the hilltops roundabout was not much better.

And yes, this was within English borders.

[xyz]

Millenium bug 2.0

This has the smell of "lessons to be learned" all over it.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

Either that or lessons will be learned.

Maybe it's a case of one in a thousand years events coming along every thirty years or so.

[Spazturtle]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

I think the landline switch off is going to be the next big screw up. They have already started to switch it off in some parts and it is already proving to be as poorly planned as expected.

Old people who use telephone connected services like LifeAlert were meant to contact Openreach beforehand to let to know so that they could delay the switch off in their area giving people time to find an internet connected alternative.

But nobody seems to actually know that the POTS landline service is being switched off so nobody has contacted Openreach.

[TelecommsCraig]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

The Telecomms industry has started to get its act together as Ofcom is, for now, leaving it mostly to the sector to sort out - look for Fit to Switch - but a lot of companies, when told about it, are parking the issue as 2025 seems far away...

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

"2025 seems far away"

Yes, but presumably that excuse will start to fizzle out in 11 days time.

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

No, it will be like phONEday. "Ah, 2025 is when they will start telling us they will be starting to turn stuff off". I was repeatedly banging my head against a wall back then repeatedly telling people NO!!!!! Date X is when they will FINISH TURNING THE OLD STUFF OFF, not when they start turning the new stuff on.

I saw way too many documents saying things like "From (date) please use (new dialling code). We don't know when the old code will be turned off, we presume it will overlap for some time after that date." NO!!!!! You *DO* know when the old code will be turned off. ON (DATE)!!!! You should be using the new code *NOW* to ensure you are no longer using it in plenty of time *BEFORE* (date).

For some reason all too many people thought "old X will stop on (date)" meant "you *must* *not* use new Y until after (date)".

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

Even for those of us who know POTS is going to be switched off it's quite obscure as to when in any given area.

[gryphon]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

BT switched me over to 'Digital Voice' a few months ago.

Give them their due, which I wouldn't normally, they e-mailed me a few times and sent me a letter explaining exactly what was happening and to contact them if I had any of x,y,z things to worry about.

From what I remember all the text was pretty clear about what to do and what the consequences would be if I didn't take action if I needed to.

Also got a voucher for a converter for extensions or hefty discount off a new cordless phone from the BT Shop.

I just plugged my existing one into the back of the SmartHub though and all was fine.

If you've tried to sign up for new broadband recently, it if includes phone, you are usually being asked do you have an emergency alarm, house alarm etc. etc. as a check.

[bemusedHorseman]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

That's a really scary thing that they're switching off POTS at all, considering so many rural places (especially here in the US) are dependent on "having a physical landline permanently tied to an actual street address" to have access to emergency services. 911 can only geolocate cell signals in urban areas, apparently.

[Orv]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

It depends on the type of geolocation. Most phones now can provide a GPS location. But the old method of triangulation doesn't work as well in rural areas because there are fewer towers. Another issue is that rural areas' 911 centers may not be equipped to handle geolocation data.

[david 12]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

911 can only geolocate cell signals in urban areas, apparently.

The old system of geolocation used cell-phone towers. It's less accurate where the cell-phone towers are further apart, and not accurate at all where there is only one tower.

The "new" system ("Enhanced 911") has been in place for very long time now. Was legislated ~ 20 years ago, was in operation ~10 years ago. Your Android or iPhone smart-phone tells 911 where it is. Using gps and google location services. That's accurate to 10-20 yards.

Legislated accuracy is/was 300 yards, but that was derived from the original cell-pone system and the original low-accuracy GPS civilian system back when only the military got the full signal.

Your local 911 may still be using a landline system of geolocation -- It's not impossible that they automated and computerized 20 years ago and are still using the same software. But they are already getting the location data from the phone companies.

Last time I was in the USA was ~ 10 years ago, and I was still using a "feature phone", not a smartphone. There was no legislated requirement for smartphones, and until smartphone usage reaches 95%, the carriers had to also provide tower-location services. On my reading of the situation then, I thought that they could turn off tower-location once they could provide location for 95% by smartphone. But I haven't heard that they've done that.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

e911 doesn't exist in Europe

and my IP is being geolocated by most "professional websites" as Glenrothes in Scotland (where my ISP is) rather than London (where I am)

I can't think that the scottish fire service will be happy about that

(Yes, whois shows where I am, IF using my ISP's whois server. Most sites can't be arsed looking beyond the AS whois or to the /24 at best)

[DaveMcM]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

I have the same issue with almost reverse geography - I’m in the highlands but most of the lazier sites are adamant that I’m in Manchester…

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

This has the smell of "lessons to be learned" all over it.

So many lessons to be learned, so little actual learning.

[BartyFartsLast]

Re: Millenium bug 2.0

If the old adage about they who never made a mistake never did anything is true that must mean the UK is the single most productive country on the planet.

[Doctor Syntax]

I thought Smart [sic] meters used 2G. And what, I wonder, do pacemaker monitors use?

I've always found the "generation" thing a bit odd. Back when TACS was introduced BT's existing car-phones were called System 4 so I assume they were the 4th generation, TACS became the 4th and the first GSM phones 6th.

[Arthur the cat]

I thought Smart [sic] meters used 2G. And what, I wonder, do pacemaker monitors use?

Mine says 4G when connecting. Possibly because 5G is still a bit spotty inside the house.

[heyrick]

I think "everything analogue" was lumped under the 1G moniker, even though it actually represents dozens of incompatible technologies, when somebody decided that the first digital mobile service would be "the second generation".

[Doctor Syntax]

No, they only started counting from the first digital, GSM. Obviously the marketing folk involved only had digital memories

TACS, like its predecessors in the UK was analogue but it was the first truly cellular system in that a handset could transfer from one base station to another in mid-call which the early versions couldn't. That allowed for more and smaller service areas, the cells.

[heyrick]

"No, they only started counting from the first digital, GSM"

...uh...yeah, isn't that pretty much what I said?

GSM is 2G and that's when the counting started (and everything before was lumped under "1G").

[Slx]

The G is only a loose categorisation until 4G

The use of the G terminology is only a way of categorising networks by eras of technology. 4G was the first time it began to be used as a trademark or shorthand for a single protocol.

1G just means any mobile phone service that was capable of carrying out basic, automated cellular voice services.

* NMT (Nordic Mobile Telephone), which was used in a lot of European countries and even supported roaming.

* AMPS - Advanced Mobile Phone System, used in North America.

* TACS, which is basically a Europeanised / Internationalised version of AMPS used in the UK, Ireland, Italy, Japan and several others. (This was extended to support roaming between Vodafone UK and Eircell in Ireland, by writing special software for the Ericsson AXE system both networks used, using techniques inspired by NMT.)

* JTACS a fork of TACS used in Japan.

* NTT (later NTT Hicap) - Japan.

* ‘C-Netz’ or C-450 used in Germany, Portugal and South Africa

* RTMS only used in Italy by SIP

* Radiocom 2000 - France Telecom (Iteneris GSM replaced it)

2G:

* GSM - the original version - TDMA based.

* D-AMPS - Digital AMPS, based on TDMA tech not unlike GSM, but with a more limited set of features, designed really to directly replace AMPS.

* CDMAone

* PDC - Japan

* Personal Handy-phone System (PHS) - Japan, Thailand and China (Microcells similar to DECT).

* iDEN - a Motorola developed platform also could communicate directly device-to-device, independently of cellular services. It was used in the US, Brazil, Argentina and Mexico by Nextel and rolled out by quite a few carriers in the americas, parts of Asia and Israel.

WiDEN was its later 2.5G tech. It was dropped by operators in favour of CDMA 2000 mostly.

3G:

* UMTS standards by 3GPP (the 3G successor of both GSM and PCD) which would generally be referred to as ‘3G’ and tends to have largely assumed that term. However it is not the only 3G tech:

* CDMA 2000 a successor or cdmaOne

* Mobile WiMAX was deployed as an upper 3G+ data enhancement and even almost 4G tech, but never really took off as a mobile standard. WiMAX found more use in fixed wireless networks eg rural broadband.

4G became synonymous almost exclusively with LTE (the next step in the GSM family) and 5G similarly became the general term for 5G NR standard we all use, and both can almost always be assumed to refer to those.

In general cellular networks that adopted niche standards all had their fingers burnt with expensive vendor lock ins, being left with dead end tech, limited handset ranges and expensive upgrade paths without backwards compatibility etc, so you see standardisation rapidly spreading from GSM > UMTS > LTE > 5G NR

You’re not really going to see deployment of incompatible tech anymore as nobody’s going to be stuck on the mobile equivalent of BetaMax…

[BenDwire]

I'm old enough to remember selling and using System 3 handsets. They were installed in such cars as Prince Charles' Aston Martin**, and 'one' had to ask the operator to connect you as there was no direct dialling back in those days.

It's amazing how far technology has improved over my relatively short lifetime.

(** Positive earth vehicle, so the transmitter had to be mounted in a wooden box in the boot. It was made by Mobira Oy, which eventually became Nokia IIRC)

[Doctor Syntax]

Please get it right: 'one' had to ask the operator to connect you one. "You" simply wouldn't have been U.

System 4 was subscriber dialled. It coexisted with TACS for quite a while.

[Big_Boomer]

G for Generation

TACS = 1G (Analogue), GSM = 2G (Digital + SMS), 3G (added the data only channel to 2G), 4G (LTE, faster data that can also handle calls & messaging), 5G (even faster data).

4G coverage is shocking given that it has been "out" for over 10 years. Perhaps OFCOM needs to step in and state that the networks cannot switch off 2G or 3G in each area until they can prove that all users in that particular area can get a usable 4G signal at a minimum. That would motivate the networks to get their shit together and sort out their coverage. As for those still relying on 2G/3G coverage for infrastructure, you need to get your fingers out of your collective rectums and get a move on. I still don't understand why that kind of data cannot be sent over the power lines. If it's low enough bandwidth it's not going to cause much RFI if any, and the power supply infrastructure isn't going to go away until cold-fusion becomes a reality.

[bemusedHorseman]

Re: G for Generation

I remember when the G was originally intended to stand for Gigabit, because that's what the digital cell networks were supposed to be capable of providing. In theory 5G is capable of "five gigabit" speed, but the previous generations were nowhere near their intended namesake speeds even in lab conditions.

[doublelayer]

Re: G for Generation

I'm not sure that was ever claimed. 3G, for example, was not ever attempting to get 3 Gbps to any device, and it got well over that if we're looking at the network as a whole. The fact that when they started using those names they kept incrementing the number suggests that it was always meant to stand for generation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: G for Generation

> I still don't understand why that kind of data cannot be sent over the power lines.

Sending data like that over power lines is technically doable, but you need supporting equipment at each substation. For end user to utility direction (basic smart meters) you put a current transformer on each phase, run that to some conditioning equipment, digitize and process.

Utility to user direction, you need a big cabinet of scary looking resistors and inductors hooked up to "low voltage" (480v in the US) with a big transformer (IIRC about 300 kW, size was necessary for the required impedance matching, not power) that hooked up to "medium voltage".

Harder than the data rates was contention. The system I was most familiar with (now part of Landis+Gyr) couldn't realistically do a CSMA/CD approach. Utility->user was easy, since you only had one transmitter. I don't remember if the user-> utility direction used timesslots or frequency division, or what.

Source: I used to work at a place that built and tested the things (although that was years ago).

[Orv]

Re: G for Generation

My understanding is utilities routinely use this for monitoring substation equipment, but it's just not that viable for customer meters.

[Dagg]

Re: G for Generation

I still don't understand why that kind of data cannot be sent over the power lines

Need to be able to step over/through transformers etc. Also be able to handle transmission issues caused by signal refection from branches.

I'm actually curious as to why 3G needs to be switched off?

[Colin Bull 1]

D for Dream world

You are living in a dream world if you expect Ofcom to step in and do anything. They have only just woken up to the fact that most suppliers are selling fibre/copper as fibre and think they need another year or 2 to get their act together and tell the truth in their adverts. And after years of conning people with hyper inflationary mid contract price rises Ofcom think perhaps that should not be allowed.

[WonkoTheSane]

"Smart" cars will also be affected

Cars that have an app to remote control functions like the heating, use a modem to provide comms to the manufacturer's cloud server.

Many of these modems are 3G or even 2G and are NOT forward-compatible!

Anyone think the car makers will offer an upgraded modem for an older car? I didn't think so.

[Neil Barnes]

Re: "Smart" cars will also be affected

Isn't there a requirement for all new cars to be connected (along with all the other mandated 'helpful' driver aids)? What system do they use?

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: "Smart" cars will also be affected

I've just had to replace the 3rd-party trackers in our cars. They were 2G/3G only, which I'd forgotten about until I had to pull one to check the battery.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I've just had to replace the 3rd-party trackers in our cars.

Well, that's a novelty. Around here usually people tend to go on and on about disabling trackers, and yet here you are....

:-D

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: I've just had to replace the 3rd-party trackers in our cars.

I put these in (after a previous car was stolen, stable doors and all that) so nobody tracks them but me.

[Orv]

Re: "Smart" cars will also be affected

GM sent out a warning about their earliest On*Star systems back when AMPS was shut down. They didn't offer an upgrade path, although there are third-party mirrors that incorporate On*Star (with less integration, of course.)

[43300]

I expect their IT departments are well aware and have tried to tell those higher up...

[hayzoos]

opportunity knocks

2G/3G sunset consultant - since in-house IT are simply not paid enough to bother listening to.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

NR71

You can always kick your TV stations off the 600MHz spectrum and use NR71 like us 'Mericans. You might as well if you're facing replacing a zillion cell radios anyway.

[IGotOut]

Re: NR71

And just replace a zillion TV sets?

[DS999]

Re: NR71

You don't have to replace any TV sets. The way it was done in the US was to reallocate channel numbering which used to go up to 51 and now goes up to 33 or something like that. TVs that can tune channel 51 just see garbage there, but there is no need to replace them because the stations that used to in those higher numbers have been moved to lower numbers.

Not sure if the UK is using 600 MHz for TV at all though, since you don't have nearly so many broadcast TV channels as we do in the US.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

Re: NR71

It's only part of UHF. The US reallocated the higher numbered channels that were perfect for small devices needing very long range communication.

The only TV hardware change is that mast amplifiers need a different low-pass cutoff. These things rust out every 5 years so odds are you'll have a new one before there are enough cellular deployments to cause interference.

I'm not sure about UK TV but this might have already happened for >700MHz. The original TV spectrum is enormous.

[DS999]

They just need to turn it off for mobile customers

Set a date after which its use won't be allowed for phones/tablets/etc. but leave a small sliver with very limited per client bandwidth available to handle stuff like fire alarms, traffic lights or anything else that is using 3G. That could be left around for the full 10 years, giving more than adequate time for that stuff to be upgraded.

Chances are we will never face this with LTE, because 5G supports an LTE coexistence mode where the same spectrum can do either one. So even after no one still has a phone that doesn't support 5G IoT devices that use LTE will continue to work seamlessly because base stations will still be able to talk LTE to them over the traditional LTE bands even after 99.9% of those bands' capacity are being used by 5G clients.

[djnapkin]

Aussie 3G going down fast

3G is already switched off by Vodafone in Australia and the two other carriers will be switching it off in 2024.

[jackalek]

Think of the cost!

I'm now involved in the upgrade of radio bits in public transport vehicles for passenger announcements, which is nowhere near critical, just convinence for public. New hardware (or add on as in our case, so just the radio bit is updated) is a fraction of the cost. Real cost is labour, and these bloody things got wheels and mind of its own so catching these to do the work is a challenge! I can't imagine headache to do it times millions of affected devices. It's years of project planning and a lot of £¥€$

[webstaff]

Alarm systems are another one.

With the pstn network rapidly disappearing a lot of BT redcare went GSM and a lot of those gsm modems are not 4g.

Also car trackers.

Be interesting to see what happens.

[tiggity]

Re: Alarm systems are another one.

@webstaff

Go beyond car trackers - most commercial vehicles have trackers.

When I last was involved with vehicle tracking software (although a few years ago now) - many companies were still ordering and installing 2/3G trackers (because they were still on the market, cheap & widely available & they were a proven technology that worked)

They will often have custom software on their trackers, depending what fleet management software solution is being used, so not just a simple replace tracker scenario, but hassle of setting tracker up correctly first.