back to article Four more months of Section 702 snooping slipped into $890B US defense budget bill

US lawmakers today approved an $886 billion defense policy bill that includes a four-month extension to Section 702, the controversial surveillance tool that allows American intelligence to potentially spy on its citizens and permanent residents. On Thursday, the US House of Representatives voted 310 to 118 to approve the …

  1. IGotOut Silver badge

    I love how the US government works...

    Every year it lurches from one financial crisis to another, the people throw in some shitty policies that would never pass otherwise, and it's good to go ....until next year.

  2. HuBo
    Mushroom

    Oh schnitzel!

    I'm with Laperruque on this. Disappointed, but if it was the only way to ensure sustained funding of the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters, then so be it, for 4 months. But really, if this doesn't end up preventing Vladimir Putin from being re-pseudo-elected as dictator-for-life of the Russian Federation, then I think we'll have to kill the remainder of 702, and up the ante properly by, along with the EU, declaring war on Russia. His stupid tsarist beligerence and wholesale cyber-propaganda has lasted long enough!

    A policy of appeasement is surrender-monkeyism, not defense.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Oh schnitzel!

      But really, if this doesn't end up preventing Vladimir Putin from being re-pseudo-elected as dictator-for-life of the Russian Federation, then I think we'll have to kill the remainder of 702, and up the ante properly by, along with the EU, declaring war on Russia. His stupid tsarist beligerence and wholesale cyber-propaganda has lasted long enough!

      Err.. what? Warrantless surveillance and co-opting Starbucks into your snooping program is something you might expect of a paranoid dictator, not the land of the free. But that's what the wholesale cyber propaganda has been all about. Deflect attention from increasing authoritarianism at home, and project that onto Russia instead. But there's no need to declare war on Russia. After all, Russia's apparently lost 90% of it's armed forces -

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-has-lost-almost-90-of-its-prewar-army-us-intelligence-says/ar-AA1lotmt

      WASHINGTON—The war in Ukraine has devastated Russia’s preinvasion military machine, with nearly 90% of its prewar army lost to death or injury, and thousands of battle tanks destroyed, according to a newly declassified U.S. intelligence assessment shared with Congress.

      The intelligence assessment, according to a congressional source, says that 315,000 Russian personnel have been killed or injured since the February 2022 invasion, or 87 percent of Moscow’s prewar force of 360,000.

      This is originally from the WSJ, so it must be true, right? Russia's army is in tatters, it's economy is in tatters. So I'm a bit puzzled. The EU's about to give Ukraine 50bn, the US 60bn.. Apparenly because if we can't eliminate that last 10% of Russia's military, then it's going to sweep into Poland, Germany, Estonia, Finland etc. I.. Don't get it. They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops and a few clapped out tanks? Congress doesn't need to give Ukraine another $60bn when according to this 'intelligence assessment', Ukraine's already won.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Proud of yourself JE?

        Here comes Putin's stooge again.

        Putin's strategy is crystal clear:

        1/ use Hungary and the GOP fringe crackpots to stall Western support.

        2/ while exhausting Ukraine's current ammunition stocks as fast as possible by sending as much canon fodder as possible to the front line

        You're part of [1] and implicit agree to [2].

      2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

        Are you conveniently or deliberately ignoring the last 300,000 callup round? There will be more, both voluntary and conscription, but after the upcoming Russian "election". Once that little constitutional wrinkle is out the way, Putin will happily throw millions of Russian citizens into his meat grinder. Sure, they won't have had as much training as whatever the pre-war force had, but that's irrelevant.

        Meanwhile, Ukraine's so-called allies still can't seem to get past only just giving Ukraine enough support to vaguely hold their ground. Certainly not enough for a swift and decisive victory. A victory they claim is essential to avoiding a future, much larger global war. Unitl it gets a bit pricey and the US right-wing GOP nutters start tying to pull the funding plug.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

          Are you conveniently or deliberately ignoring the last 300,000 callup round? There will be more, both voluntary and conscription, but after the upcoming Russian "election". Once that little constitutional wrinkle is out the way, Putin will happily throw millions of Russian citizens into his meat grinder. Sure, they won't have had as much training as whatever the pre-war force had, but that's irrelevant.

          Not me guv. I'm just curious what the problem is when the story says Ukraine's destroyed 90% of Russia's existing army already. Most of the MSM's picked up that story and ran with it, and have no problem with the cognitive dissonance.

          Meanwhile, Ukraine's so-called allies still can't seem to get past only just giving Ukraine enough support to vaguely hold their ground. Certainly not enough for a swift and decisive victory. A victory they claim is essential to avoiding a future, much larger global war.

          Another person calling for widening the war when Russia's military is down to it's last 10%. But fear not, Ukraine will be leading the EU to victory! Or, the EU's just completed a cynical publicity stunt voting to think about letting Ukraine join the EU.. Much like Turkey. But the propaganda machine is duly bigging up this 'deal' because Ukrainians are rapidly losing confidence in Zelensky's attempt at government. Much like many people in the EU are. Still, the EU's cracking down on freedom of speech and 'misinformation', and expanding it's surveillance of dissenters, much like the US.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

            Heavy sigh.

            "Prewar combat troops" does not comprise the entire army. "Casualties" does not mean "dead". Russia's army isn't a static force, they normally (even without dealing with Ukraine) conscript over 200,000 soldiers each year, so there's no "last 10%" (or "last 13%" to use the quoted numbers).

            If Russia had 360,000 combat troops at the start of the war, and Ukraine killed or wounded 315,000, yea, they eliminated 87% of the "pre war combat troops". In the mean time, some of the wounded will heal up and return to battle, and another 200,000+ will join them (actually more, due to the mobilization and recruitment efforts). If you think that the WSJ is claiming Russia only has 45,000 people left in their armed forces, that seems like either a reading comprehension failure or intentionally pretending to be obtuse in order to craft a "WSJ so dumb" narrative.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

              If Russia had 360,000 combat troops at the start of the war, and Ukraine killed or wounded 315,000, yea, they eliminated 87% of the "pre war combat troops". In the mean time, some of the wounded will heal up and return to battle, and another 200,000+ will join them (actually more, due to the mobilization and recruitment efforts). If you think that the WSJ is claiming Russia only has 45,000 people left in their armed forces, that seems like either a reading comprehension failure or intentionally pretending to be obtuse in order to craft a "WSJ so dumb" narrative.

              You know that, I know that, but 97% of the population, including a depressingly large number of El Reg readers don't seem to see through the propaganda, and the way we're destroying Ukraine to save our 'leaders' own egos. It's 'fake news', crudely crafted to create a false impression. Dissenting may harm your social credit score, get you added to the naughty lists, or even locked up. Remember, as the US and EU crack down on dissenters, we're on the side of freedom, right? Interestingly, I don't think the Bbc ran this 'story', but then they've been partnering with a Ukrainanian company to try and more accurately track Russian casualties, and their figures are a lot lower.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                > the way we're destroying Ukraine to save our 'leaders' own egos

                Yeah, the West is preventing Ukraine to willfully surrender and be "denazified". Typical pro-Putin talking point.

                > Remember, as the US and EU crack down on dissenters

                Did you mean Russia and "denazified" Belarus?

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                  Yeah, the West is preventing Ukraine to willfully surrender and be "denazified". Typical pro-Putin talking point

                  Well, the West obviously has zero interest in peace. All this could have been avoided at the peace talks at the start of this conflict. Russia wanted Ukraine to remain neutral, BoJo and his masters wanted Ukraine to die. There have been no serious attempts at peace or a meaningful cease fire ever since.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Mushroom

                    Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                    Hey JE, corrected it for you.

                    > "West obviously has zero interest in peace."

                    Yeah. And The West had zero interest in peace in 1943 either. West stubbornly pursued war until Nazi Germany was defeated, and the genocides were halted. How did the West dare!?

                    > "Russia wanted Ukraine to remain neutral"

                    Weird that so many former Russia vassal countries don't want to remain "neutral" - Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Moldavia, Ukraine. Do they fear anything from their benevolent former master?

                    > "BoJo and his masters wanted Ukraine to die"

                    Did you mean "remain free to sovereignly choose their economic and political alliance"?

                    Did you mean Russia wanted "Ukraine to die"?

                    > "There have been no serious attempts at peace or a meaningful cease fire ever since."

                    What part of Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 did ever Russia and Putin comply with? Ever?

                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                      Yeah. And The West had zero interest in peace in 1943 either. West stubbornly pursued war until Nazi Germany was defeated, and the genocides were halted. How did the West dare!?

                      And how many people did Russia lose fighting that war against a fascist state? You don't seem to understand Ukraine's history though, much like Trudeau didn't when he proclaimed an SS volunter a 'hero'. Those heroes that committted genocide against Poles, Romanians and Jews during WW2 whilst waving the same red & black flag OUN flag that Ukrainians are proudly flying now. The same Ukraine that's arguably committing genocide, or ethnic cleansing since 2014. The same Ukraine that's been disproportionatly conscripting ethnic minorities to be used as cannon fodder, whilst protecting it's Galacian 'pure' Ukrainians. Or the same Ukraine that Orban asked to permit Hungarian to be taught to kids in ethnically Hungarian parts of Ukraine.

                      Do they fear anything from their benevolent former master?

                      Some may now be regretting it, after all they've lost billions in trade thanks to the policies and sanctions imposed by their new masters. Poland's agricultural sector lost billions when sanctions were first imposed, and demanded compensation. Poland's now facing Ukraine's products being dumped because they've lost Russia as a trading partner as well. That can't be replaced with the EU's internal market, and the EU's losing external trade partners as well. It's suited the US because the EU is now much less of a competitor, and the US did very little trade with Russia anyway.

                      Did you mean "remain free to sovereignly choose their economic and political alliance"?

                      I think you're forgetting the 2014 coup and regime change. They weren't at all 'free' to choose to keep trading with Russia. They're also by no means free to choose their economic or political alliances, but are now entirely dependent on doing whatever Brussels orders them to. Which is also an internal challenge for Ukraine given their nationalists actually want a sovereign Ukraine, and are now very heavily armed. So 2014 is ever more likely to repeat.

                      What part of Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 did ever Russia and Putin comply with? Ever?

                      Most of it, but then as Merkel said, Minsk was just an excuse to let Ukraine re-arm in preparation to retake Crimea and Donbas by force and ethnically cleanse those regions. This is why the SMO started because Ukraine was about to start those offensives..

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Mushroom

                        Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                        > "And how many people did Russia lose fighting that war against a fascist state?"

                        WW2 Russia, just as 2023 Russia, has the kind of "heroism" that only countries with millions of destitute, vodka addicted, poorly educated, people can count on. Heroism is about willful, conscious, chosen, altruism. Like in the RAF during the Blittz. It's not about being unable to escape one's canon-fodder destiny under a repressive regime.

                        There was no heroism in 1939 Russian mujiks invading Poland from the East whilst Nazi Germany was invading it from the West (which Russian disliked the "nazis" then?). There is no heroism in 2023 Russian prisoners, invading Ukraine. You need to get real, at some point, Mister Lavrov.

                        The rest of your post is just more 100% BS. In the 21st century, you can't invade nations like the tsars did for 10 centuries. It's over. Decline is inescapable.

                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                          Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                          It's not about being unable to escape one's canon-fodder destiny under a repressive regime.

                          Sure it is. But that takes money and patronage. So Ukraine's Fortunate Sons (and daughters) either fled the country, or thanks to their patrons, avoid being conscripted. The draft dodgers that fled have created an awkward problem for the EU because even though Ukraine is in desperate need of fresh cannon fodder, the EU doesn't want to send them back to almost certain death. But Ukraine will need them back at some point because it's rapidly depopulating. As for 'repressive regimes', you can find videos of Ukraine's recruiting efforts, either snatching people off the street.. Or more amusingly, raiding gyms and handing out draft notices. Those gym bunnies will get plenty of free exercise when they're sent to the front.

                          But see also-

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets

                          I'm sure other EU nations proudly run public kill lists..

                          In the 21st century, you can't invade nations like the tsars did for 10 centuries. It's over. Decline is inescapable.

                          Sure you can. How many bases do we have in Syria at the moment? And isn't Israel in the process of invading and cleansing Gaza? But I think you're right. More nations are seeing just how hypocritical and authoritarian the West is, and it's decline is pretty much inevitable.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Trollface

                            Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                            Russia has recruited over 100,000 convicts from penal colonies to fight in Ukraine since the war began in February 2022, Newsweek has found."

                            That's your heroes.

                            In total, more than 100,000 Russian prisoners have been offered pardons to fight, and every week more than 1,000 of them are killed in the war, Osechkin said.

                            Osechkin said he received the information from officers inside Russia's FSIN system, the country's federal executive body responsible for the detention of suspected and convicted individuals

                            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                              Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                              That's your heroes.

                              In total, more than 100,000 Russian prisoners have been offered pardons to fight, and every week more than 1,000 of them are killed in the war, Osechkin said.

                              Ukraine did exactly the same thing. Well, it emptied it's prisons and gave the prisoners weapons. It also makes a certain kind of sense. If they're in prison, they cost money and serve no real purpose. If they're recruited serve well, they're doing something useful. Also.. if 1,000 a week are being killed, that's basically all of them given the 100k prisoners = 100 weeks.

                              But it may also suprise you to learn that we did the same during WW2, as did the US and other countries. People in prison for poaching turned out to have some rather useful skills as an example.

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Trollface

                                Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                                What? Not even a link to some Russian propaganda news outlet? You tired?

                                The two occurrences of battalions made of convicts are Hitler's Strafbataillon and Stalin's Shtrafbat. Birds of a feather. Stalin again being much more efficient than his German inspiration.

                                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                  Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                                  What? Not even a link to some Russian propaganda news outlet? You tired?

                                  Of trolls? Yes, sometimes. But perhaps you should just look at the history of the UK's SOE, and some of the agents they recruited. Set a thief to catch a thief, poachers turned gamekeepers etc etc. But if you want a link, try this one-

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keretsky_grenade_incident

                                  Ukrainian politics has always been.. interesting with regular punch-ups in their parliament. This one was a little more brutal, but Batryn was apparently a member of Zelensky's party. The council was apparently trying to give themselves big pay rises and bonuses, which we currently pay for and were attacked with grenades that we probably paid for as well.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                  Soooo... when this all kicked off in like 2014 what did the west do? Back when Russia annexed Crimea and moved troops into eastern Ukraine. Oh yeah, we did nothing. Then followed 7 years of Ukraine shelling civilians in Donbas.

                  Now we have hundreds of thousands of dead all in the name of 'our democracy'.

                  We could sent an infinite amount of money to Ukraine and it sadly wouldn't make a difference. Their trained troops are all dead and the conscripts don't know how to operate the western equipment so are getting obliterated along with the equipment.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Mushroom

                    Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                    >> "Then followed 7 years of Ukraine shelling civilians in Donbas."

                    Thanks for parroting Russia propaganda. You're just showing where you stand and that your empathy with Ukraine is just a facade.

                    >> "We could sent an infinite amount of money to Ukraine and it sadly wouldn't make a difference. Their trained troops are all dead and the conscripts don't know how to operate the western equipment so are getting obliterated along with the equipment."

                    Don't worry about that. Russia's economy is living on printed money and borrowed time. Elections are coming. Inflation is unavoidable. The system can only collapse.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                      OK, we are in 'everything is Russian propaganda' mode today I see. You been watching Rachel Maddow?

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022)#War_crimes

                      The Ukranians are far from innocent in this whole thing. This should have all been resolved in 2014.

                      The Russians seem to be making a pretty penny selling gas and oil to China and India which is then sold on to us.

                      The US economy is living on printed money too.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Thumb Down

                        Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                        > everything is Russian propaganda

                        Everything Jellied Eel is saying is 100% Russian Propaganda. We've established that a long time ago already. He's anti-vax, anti-mask, climate change denier, pro-Russian beyond salvation, and much more. The whole Monty. He's even been banned from Digital spy for this.

                        But this is a free country, Anonymous Coward. You can pin your hopes on crackpots and parrot Russia Today. You will just get more and more frustrated when the Russian Federation collapses. Just like the USSR did, just 22 years ago. The vast majority of Russians want to see a change. The vast majority of vassal republics want to emancipate.

                        In the end, what matters is who buys your printed money. For the USD, it's the whole world - including the Russian bohatyi, ironically. For the Ruble, it's only Russia. Big difference. Try some economy books, when you have time.

                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                          Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                          The whole Monty. He's even been banned from Digital spy for this.

                          Yey! More ad homs from the idiocracy! It's no more 'Russian Propaganda' than Hunter Biden's laptop was, or Hilary's 'election interference'. And I was actually banned from DS for pointing out some of the oddities around the Charlottesville march & counter-march.

                          But this is a free country, Anonymous Coward

                          Not any more. It's an increasingly authoritarian and repressive country where you can get banned, fined or even jailed for wrongthink. Read the article about renewing and extending warantless surveillance for more info..

                          The vast majority of Russians want to see a change.

                          I'm sure you have polling data to back that up. Putin's approval rating was around 80% last time I looked. How does that compare to say, Trudeau, Macron, Scholz, Sunak, Biden.. or a potentially fun one, Sisi?

                          For the USD, it's the whole world - including the Russian bohatyi, ironically. For the Ruble, it's only Russia.

                          Remind me.. What currencies are Russia, China and India trading oil in? De-dollarisation is a thing, and ironically a thing the West is encouraging by cutting Russia off from the 'global' financial system. Russia can't trade dollars as easily as it could. Ohnoes! Perhaps it can find some other currencies to trade in? But the fun part is obviously that runs the risk of inflating the ruble. A surplus of dollars just runs the risk of deflating the dollar, making imports more expensive and exports less valuable.. And the Fed is helping it along by continually printing more dollars.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Facepalm

                            Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                            You are soooo ignorant. Irrespective of the good - oil or else - Russia CANNOT trade in dollar. They are locked out of it. So of course, they won't trade in USD. But they don't trade in Ruble either.

                            India (60% of seaborne Russian crude export) insists on paying in Indian Rupees. The rest is traded in Yuan offshore, HK dollar and UAE AED (pegged to the dollar). Not in Ruble. Especially because the Ruble is losing value against the CNY.

                            You're obviously not following FX. The greenback has been appreciating against all [non pegged] currencies, except CHF, for the last 10 years.

                            I don't think you understand even 1% of the FED's policy. It's necessary to "print money" to compensate for productivity gains (now back in USA) and to maintain slightly positive inflation rates (now back to just above 3%). The US economy is by far the most important and the most innovative in the world. Today, instead, Russia prints money to fuel its war economy. Everything that is produced is destroyed on the front, equipment, ammo and soldiers. That's got nothing to do with productivity.

                            The USD is still around 60% of global reserves. Lost 6% in 100 years. Mostly due to the introduction of the Euro. Together USD and Euro account for 3/4 of global payments. CNY is much less than 5%. So, don't hold your breath. Now who's going to be silly enough to hold reserves in CNY when its value is depreciating against the USD? China's FDI collapsed already and outflow is around 50 BUSD per month. You're dreaming awake.

                            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                              Re: They're going to conquer the EU with their remaining 45,000 troops...

                              You are soooo ignorant. Irrespective of the good - oil or else - Russia CANNOT trade in dollar. They are locked out of it. So of course, they won't trade in USD. But they don't trade in Ruble either.

                              Sure it can. Cash would be easy, if harder to transport but the main reason Russia can't trade in dollars is being disconnected from SWIFT. If, however Russia has dollars, and China has dollars, they can trade in dollars as long as they have a trusted system to settle those trades. But sanctions have just accelerated the usage of SPFS and CIPS as alternatives to SWIFT.

                              Now who's going to be silly enough to hold reserves in CNY when its value is depreciating against the USD?

                              Anyone who wants favorable trade deals with China? Then what matters is the value of your local currency vs CNY. What the USD is doing is irrelevant, unless for some reason you need to convert your cash to USD.

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Anonymous Coward

                                Write less. Read more.

                                Man. More nonsense. Sure it can... Russia can't.

                                what matters is the value of your local currency vs CNY. No. If stock A or currency A appreciates faster than stock B or currency B, I'm a fool to invest in A - assuming decent market liquidity. Simple math, neurodeg.

                                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                  Re: Write less. Read more.

                                  Man. More nonsense. Sure it can... Russia can't.

                                  Perhaps you should try explaining why it can't? A basic economic principle is that money is fungible, at least until CBDCs are imposed on us. If I have dollars, and you have stuff I want and are willing to accept dollars, we can trade. Sure, historically that was more complicated with China given their currency controls, but that was soo last century.

                                  No. If stock A or currency A appreciates faster than stock B or currency B, I'm a fool to invest in A - assuming decent market liquidity. Simple math, neurodeg.

                                  No, you grasp economics as well as you grasp politics. Suppose I have RUB, and only trade with China.. So the important rates are RUB and RMB. If I have no need to trade in USD, the RUB-USD isn't relevant other than the way China still somewhat pegs RMB to USD.. Which is also part of the devaluation of RMB-USD given the US wanted devaluation due to their massive trade imbalance with China. The only time you'd worry about whether to invest in USD, RMB or RUB is if you're an FX trader, or a treasurer worried about hedging currency risks.

                                  1. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Write less. Read more.

                                    I'm just citing your own sentence. You saying a and non-a in the same line. And you don't even realize, Don Quixote!?!?

                                    > "Sure it can. Cash would be easy, if harder to transport but the main reason Russia can't trade in dollars"

                                    And then more nonsense. Stop digging. You have zero understanding of FX trading and jumping from one instrument to another. What a wreck!

                                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                      Re: Write less. Read more.

                                      Stop digging. You have zero understanding of FX trading and jumping from one instrument to another. What a wreck!

                                      Et tu Brute. I refer my unlearned friend to the question I asked earlier-

                                      Perhaps you should try explaining why it can't?

                                      It's trade, not FX trading. They're entirely different things and rely on entirely different systems, not to mention a wide range of financial instruments that have no real interest outside of the FX markets. Do you understand what a fungible commodity is, and why currency is fungible? A simple example. There is a multi-billion dollar trade in white powder. This trade is illegal, yet has continuously been traded in dollars. How can this possibly happen, according to your world view? As long as dollar denominated trades can be trusted, cleared and settled, the trade happens. Cutting Russia off from SWIFT, or real or perceived issues (ie the politics) behind SWIFT have just lead to the creation of alternatives that are outside of the West's control and influence.

                                      For another simple example. Look at the way the West is using food as a weapon against Russia. Russia is the largest global producer of grains in the world. The West has prevented customers from buying those grains by blocking Russia from SWIFT. Most of the Russian businesses have nothing to do with the conflict, so it's simply collective punishment, but also has the handy effect of boosting the EU's grain prices, even though it harms EU consumers along with the rest of the world by creating food price inflation. Plus of course stuff like Poland's farmers objecting to Ukraine grain products being dumped in their markets.

                                      1. Anonymous Coward
                                        Facepalm

                                        Re: Write less. Read more.

                                        I stopped reading after:

                                        > It's trade, not FX trading. They're entirely different things

                                        Man, each time you write sth, it's nonsense. Why do you think FX trading is a thing? Even without payment terms, even without the need for FX hedging (which is an expertise of it own), you would still need FX trading. You're apparently confusing FX trading with FX speculation (which is also necessary and beneficial, btw).

                                        Besides, you were initially responding to a remark about depreciation of CNY and its role as a reserve currency. This is different from FX trading. Stop digging, old man; this becomes disturbing.

                                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                          Re: Write less. Read more.

                                          Besides, you were initially responding to a remark about depreciation of CNY and its role as a reserve currency. This is different from FX trading. Stop digging, old man; this becomes disturbing.

                                          No, I was responding to your gish-gallop and this specific comment from you-

                                          You are soooo ignorant. Irrespective of the good - oil or else - Russia CANNOT trade in dollar.

                                          Which you can't explain. So instead you do the normal troll thing and change the subject. Russia can and does trade in dollars because dollars are fungible. An extremely simple concept that you clearly don't understand. The only thing it can't currently do is use banks and systems that we've sanctioned Russia from using. So those banks lose fees, so does SWIFT, and there are plenty of countries left in the world that are basically ignoring the West's sanctions. There's also been capital flight away from EU banks due to the risk of being sanctioned for either political leverage, or as the EU's doing, trying to find a way to steal billions in sanctioned funds and re-allocate those to the most corrupt country in Europe.

                                          Unsuprisingly, other businesses and economies are realising their capital and assets just aren't safe in the EU, unless they abide by EU diktats. But that's always the blow-back problem with ill thought out sanctions. Alternative arrangements are made to bypass them, and the EU kisses good bye to trillions in trade. It's also hard to find a better example of fascist or authoritarian behaviours that 'sanctioning' Russian citizens and business assets, selling them, and then pouring the proceeds into Zelensky's black hole.. minus fees and expenses of course. This is a clear violation of UN and EU Human Rights legislation, ie property rights and rights to life, but our 'leaders' just don't care.

                                          1. Anonymous Coward
                                            Trollface

                                            Icon for you

                                            Man, really... So you can't even remember (or don't want to concede) that, back in June 2022, Russia was in technical default of its dollar denominated eurobonds debt. Precisely because it could not repay its maturing (dollar denominated) eurobonds in dollar and was attempting to repay in rubles.

                                            Of course they can put dollar bills into briefcases. Like mafia folks do. And sure enough that happens all the time. But volumes of RUB/USD electronic transactions are extremely low (which incidentally also allows the central bank to manipulate the exchange rates - in addition to hiking interest rates and controlling businesses and individuals transactions).

                                            But even the Russian central bank proudly states that less than 2% of Russia's exports are denominated in what it calls "toxic currencies" (euro, dollar, British pound, etc). So, you're better at repeating Lavrov's BS than Elvira Nabiullina's official stats.

                                            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                              Re: Icon for you

                                              Man, really... So you can't even remember (or don't want to concede) that, back in June 2022, Russia was in technical default of its dollar denominated eurobonds debt. Precisely because it could not repay its maturing (dollar denominated) eurobonds in dollar and was attempting to repay in rubles.

                                              Again, thank you for making my point. Russia had the dollars. The only reason why there was any 'technical' default was entirely political. The EU and US wouldn't let Russia pay because of sanctions, and the EU had stolen.. I mean seized/frozen Russian central bank reserves, from memory $3-600bn. The EU is an armed robbery masquerading as a democracy, and it's latest wheeze is to put Russian money into escrow accounts, pending the EU finally figuring out a legal way to just take it. But congratulations, you found one slightly relevant exampe of a transaction Russia couldn't complete due to political interference. If a Russian company has dollars, and wants to buy from China in dollars, what exactly is stopping them from completing that transaction? Or, Russia and Brazil, S.Africa etc etc. The only barrier is if the West leans on the counterparties and threatens them with sanctions as well.

                                              But even the Russian central bank proudly states that less than 2% of Russia's exports are denominated in what it calls "toxic currencies" (euro, dollar, British pound, etc)

                                              Again, thank you for making my point. Less than 2% of $600bn+ is priced in USD, so why would USD rates be at all relevant, or a supposed inability to trade in dollars be harmful? Russian policy has been to move away from hostile & risky currencies for some time now. Oh, and for added amusement. The US was rumored to be blocking imports of uranium. Russia may now be thinking of blocking exports to the US. No problem, the US has a booming uranium mining, processing and enrichment industry that can produce enough fuel for US reactors.. doesn't it? It's a pretty evil move, but then one area where Russia has been interfering is promoting 'renewables', because they knew that would increase dependency on gas and other fuels Russia can supply..

                                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                                Trollface

                                                Re: Icon for you

                                                Sorry, I did not make your points. I made my points. And I proved you wrong. With facts.

                                                Do you still need more facts? No problem. Since March 11, 2022, and Executive Order 14068, the USA prohibits "(iv) the exportation, reexportation, sale, or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a United States person, wherever located, of U.S. dollar-denominated banknotes to the Government of the Russian Federation or any person located in the Russian Federation.

                                                But your sick brain is moving the goalposts again, and jumping from one rant to the next. Now you're ranting about another of your pet peeves: Uranium, SMRs and renewables. We're only missing vaccines, covid, and the anthropogenic nature of climate change. You're running in circle, in full paranoid mode. Trumpism is a neurodegenerative disease.

                                                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                                                  Re: Icon for you

                                                  Do you still need more facts? No problem. Since March 11, 2022, and Executive Order 14068, the USA prohibits "(iv) the exportation, reexportation, sale, or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a United States person, wherever located, of U.S. dollar-denominated banknotes to the Government of the Russian Federation or any person located in the Russian Federation.

                                                  Oh.. my. NLP, that you? So ok.. let me dissect this for one second by highlighting the salient points in bold.. If you're notaphilyated with those groups.. Then guess what, you can still trade with Russia in dollars. But again, thankyou for making my point for me. If I'm in Moscow, holding a 'Grand Watermelon', I could happily sell that to a Chinese collector for whatever we can agree on and in whatever currency we agree on.

                                                  Again, you really don't have a clue, do you?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Political Theatre..........

    ......and a seat in the theatre only costs billions of dollars (with a "b")!!!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    US government is based on same ideals as DDR was: Claim to be a democracy but in real life it's a paranoid dictatorship where secret police does what ever it wants.

    Basically DDR v.2 with a lot of BS propaganda to hide the reality and megacorporations instead of central commitee. Congress&Senate have long been corporate puppets so they're irrelevant. Secret police (all of them) serve whoever they want but mostly serve their corporate masters. Citizens? Those are the cannon fodder, no-one cares about them.

    EU is even more like DDR: Literal central commitee ("commission") has absolute and direct power over anything and all of the members are bribed to the hilt. None of them is elected in elections either. Secret police is 'co-operating' with CIA, NSA and DHS, i.e. using NSA to spy on everyone and then buying the data from NSA. Totally legal, they say.

    There is a parliament, but it doesn't have any power (formally it has but that's meaningless in practise) and central commitee rules with iron fist.

    OK. Do we have any *actual* democracies left? Norway?

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      >OK. Do we have any *actual* democracies left? Norway?

      You trying saying anything bad about Herring

      (in case any vikings are listening in: I love Herring, the more rotten and stinkier the better, I'm glad your entire culture is based on the worship of reject cat food)

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ...And In Other News, The UK STASI Is Also Hard At Work.....

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/17/prevent-programme-anti-radicalisation-data-shared-secretly

    Yup...."secret", "database", "illegal sharing"......all the hallmarks of the western STASI in Cheltenham and Fort Meade......

    Why am I not surprised?

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