back to article Amazon on the hook for predictably revolting use of concealed clothes hook spy cam

Two years ago, a Brazilian minor came to the US as an exchange student in the US and stayed in a West Virginia home in which her host had placed a spy camera bought on Amazon.com. The minor – said to have been an "aspiring actress" in an amended legal complaint [PDF] filed earlier this year against e-commerce giant Amazon – …

  1. Doctor Evil
    Unhappy

    WTF?

    There may be a legitimate use for such a device -- but there are so many opportunities for abuse that such use should probably be tightly controlled/monitored. I just hope (a) that the homeowner carries the principal liability for the harms done and (b) that the actual product manufacturer is also being sued in addition to Amazon. And I hope that nobody involved gets off at all. This is scurrilous!

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: WTF?

      I'm not sure how you tightly control or monitor use of that. You probably have to either forbid it entirely and ban the sale of such devices or accept that you can't prevent abuse of them. The most logical non-abusive use I can think of is installing the hook in an entrance, as if designed to hold a jacket, as part of a covert security system, but you have no way of knowing if I'm going to do that or something more abusive when I buy one and no real way to check what I've done with it afterward.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: WTF?

        An overt camera in a public space, or other place with no expectation of privacy, is likely to be far more effective than a covert one. And if there is a use case for a covert camera, there's a vast array of options. I can't see any legitimate justification for this particular device.

        Unfortunately, because there is a vast array of options, and they're very easy to come by, I don't expect this case — satisfying though it may be to see, and whatever its outcome — to change the situation.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: WTF?

          "I can't see any legitimate justification for this particular device."

          In a place as wide-ranging as a equestrian center, a petty pilferer will move on to uncovered areas if you put up obvious cameras. With non-obvious cameras, you can quickly catch the perp red-handed and remove him or her from the premises permanently. Covering the entire place with obvious cameras is a non-option due to budget and logistics reasons.

          I have obvious cameras up to cover "the approach and the getaway" for insurance reasons, but those are all outdoors. The Mare Motel (except the Vet's private apartment) is completely covered inside and out (insurance again), and that's about it around here. If I had a need to catch a pilfering perp, I would mount cameras like the ones in the article[0] in places that the perp was operating in. Once the cameras were no longer necessary, I'd remove them. Only myself, my Wife, and the foreman and his wife would know they existed, where they were located, and when they were taken down.

          I sincerely hope I never need to use this option ... but I'm glad it exists.

          [0] I'd probably go with some kind of wireless connectivity rather than dump the pics on a card to be collected later. That might work for gamecams, but I wouldn't want it for keeping an eye on humans.

          1. GoneFission

            Re: WTF?

            How would you feel regarding your wife / eligible children / someone else you care about being surreptitiously recorded at their workplace without their knowledge, by an owner or manager whose intent you have no insight into? Would you treat it as one of those "nothing to hide" situations where they should have naturally assumed that there's a 50/50 chance of being unknowingly filmed / recorded / tracked outside of their home anyway, or would it be concerning?

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: WTF?

      One of the barns over in Petaluma put a couple hidden cams in a tackroom to catch the party rifling the coat pockets and purses of riders out taking lessons. We haven't had a need for such a thing here, but I can assure you that I'll have something similar installed at the slightest sign of that kind of breach of trust.

      People don't change clothes in the tackrooms, though ... they use the restrooms and/or the showers.

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: WTF?

      I used one of these coat hook devices in a Thriller that I wrote last year.

      While I hope that AMZN get taken to the cleaners over this (unlikely) it is nice to know that my research into spy products being sold by AMZN proved to be accurate.

      One tip people outside the USA, use 1) a private window and 2) a VPN that makes out that you are in the US before you start. Otherwise, AMZN will bombard you with 'We think that you might like' ads for all the [cough][cough] dodgy stuff that you looked at but with no intention of buying. The same goes for Etsy, especially if you are looking for some toys to use in bed (wink-wink, nudge-nudge).

      1. katrinab Silver badge
        Gimp

        Re: WTF?

        I (in the UK) have just bought some toys for use in bed, and it isn't suggesting I buy any more of them. It is suggesting I buy the shoes I looked at that have a delivery date of next March-April, some face cloths, some NVME drives and related stuff, and bizarely, some live streams for sportsball matches and men's shavers.

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: WTF?

          Funny. I usually get ads for the product I've literally just bought. In some cases cheaper than the price I paid.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. katrinab Silver badge

            Re: WTF?

            The face cloths are the ones I bought a few months ago.

            To be fair, that is something people are likely to re-purchase, though I probably won't buy those ones again.

          3. Arthur the cat Silver badge

            Re: WTF?

            I usually get ads for the product I've literally just bought.

            Ditto. Plus variants on books – you've just bought ${TITLE} by ${AUTHOR} on Kindle, would you like the hardback version, the paperback version, the audiobook, the US edition, the French translation, the German translation, …

        2. sedregj Bronze badge
          Coffee/keyboard

          Re: WTF?

          "I (in the UK) have just bought some toys for use in bed"

          Scrabble or Ludo probably.

          1. jonathan keith

            Re: WTF?

            The mattress movement really ratchets up the tension in a game of Jenga.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: WTF?

            > Scrabble or Ludo probably.

            Or Bucking Bronco..

        3. cookieMonster Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: WTF?

          Sport live streams and bed toys….

          Wow, I’m definitely old

        4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: WTF?

          I bought some toys for use in bed, but it was a disappointing experience. It turns out sleeping on Lego is really uncomfortable.

          1. Francis Boyle

            Re: WTF?

            I don't know. I suspect some people might find the studs, er, stimulating.

      2. Dave559

        Re: WTF?

        What are these "ad" things you speak of? (As ever, thank you, NoScript, etc…)

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: WTF?

          Y'know, I don't block advertisements online (just as I don't block them in print magazines), and I haven't been "bombarded" with them.

          Anecdotal? Yes, of course. But that's my experience. I see some advertisements. Usually they're for things I'm not interested in. Occasionally they're redundant, as many people complain (my feeling is: so what? I'm capable of ignoring them). Once in a great while they've informed me about something I didn't know existed, but now want.

    4. MacroRodent

      Re: WTF?

      Not sure if there are any legitimate uses, except maybe by law enforcement. If you own the property and want to monitor it for unwanted activities, like employees pilfering stuff, it is better to install visible cameras. That way they also act as a deterrent to the funny business.

  2. aerogems Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Another frivolous case

    By frivolous I mean the person suing clearly went after whoever has the deepest pockets.

    The beef this person has is with their US "host" who bought the thing in the first place, maybe even with the maker and seller of the device, but not Amazon. It becomes particularly clear this isn't really a serious case when they mention how Amazon allows people to search for things like "hidden camera". Well of course they fucking do. If porn filters have taught us anything, it's that you can't write a regex rule so precise it will target porn proclaiming something about the female talent's breasts and a PSA about breast cancer screening.

    If this young woman wants to sue the person who installed the camera in her room, I'm all for it. She wants to go after the specific Amazon seller who seems to be targeting the pedo and pervert demographic, I'm again all for it. However, Amazon is like three degrees to Kevin Bacon in this particular case. It's like someone suing a gardening supply store for selling shovels that could be used by a serial killer to bury the bodies of their victims. The lawyer is just hoping Amazon will throw some money at them to make them go away.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Another frivolous case

      Like the drug dealer arguing they are just "the middleman" and really it is the growers of opium who should be arrested?

      1. aerogems Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        In your analogy, the drug dealer would be the host who put this young woman up when she was in the US, and the growers of the crop would be the individual/company that listed the camera with all the pedo/perv bait language. Amazon would be like the store where the drug dealer bought the plastic bags to store the drugs, and claiming that Amazon didn't do enough to determine the guy is a drug dealer and those plastic bags might be used to store illicit drugs.

        1. trindflo Silver badge

          Amazon is supplying more than plastic bags

          I'll go with the host as the dealer (I'd say something harsher like a pusher). I'd say the manufacturers are more like the farms (the supply origin); the problem doesn't exist without them. Amazon is the power in the equation though, so I'd say that makes them closer to the drug cartel. Admittedly that falls apart because Amazon is not killing anyone (at least not directly). Amazon was definitely supplying more than a wrapper; they were supplying shelf space if nothing else.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        Bad simile. Possession of illegal drugs for sale is an offense in and of itself. Possession of cameras is not.

        Yet.

        1. krakead

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Arguably, in this tortured analogy, Amazon is the smuggling operation that gets the drugs to the pushers.

      3. Manolo
        Childcatcher

        Re: Another frivolous case

        No, because growing poppies (you can't "grow" opium) has legitimate uses.

        Where do you think the perfectly legal (but controlled) morphine comes from?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another frivolous case

      The gardening store is selling shovels that are not really good, somehow, for much other than burying bodies in shallow graves.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        Personally, if I am burying ANYTHING I want a shovel that works, not a cheap one.

        Bad tools aren't worth the money you pay for them. Buy it right, pay a little more, buy it once.

        1. b0llchit Silver badge

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Yeah, tools must be good tools. I'd consult the BOFH for the best deal on shovels. He has ample experience and intricate insights in the world of shovels.

        2. AndrueC Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Well quite. It's so annoying to find yourself stuck in the woods with a dead body at your feet and a broken shovel. It's not so bad at the moment I suppose since the rain has made the ground very wet but the summer before last you practically needed a jack hammer and of course you can't be doing that so you need a damn' good shovel.

          1. cookieMonster Silver badge

            Re: Another frivolous case

            Freeze the body then use a good big woodchipper, preferably beside a river

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: Another frivolous case

              Oh, are we not using quicklime any more? If it was good enough for granddad...

              Or, y'know, throw it in the hog pen. (True story: A member of my extended family went that way. They think he might have had a heart attack or stroke and then fallen in, but no way to know after the fact.)

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Another frivolous case

                Re: Death by Hogs ... I have a rather deep well that has been dry[0] far longer than we've owned the property. I'm saving it just in case we have that particular issue. Logically, the "input protein" has no bearing on "finished product" anymore than eating chicken turns you into a bird or eating salmon turns you into a fish. The "ick" factor does come into play, however, even for this backwoods hick ...

                [0] Thus no longer connected to the water table. In this part of California faulting is weird sometimes.

        3. Duncan10101

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Oh you're so right. I have a really good shovel (which I didn't get from Amazon) that I've used for *every* body that I've buried in the garden. Trust me- you don't want one that breaks or bends when you're in a hurry ... like when trying to complete the job before it gets light.

        4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Buy it right, pay a little more, buy it once.

          I'll agree, with the caveat that sometimes "good enough" is, in fact, good enough. Particularly if you don't expect to use the tool much, or if you expect to use it so much that it's going to burn out regardless of quality.

          My hammer drill? That's a quality tool that I paid good money for. You want a powerful motor, heavy-duty bearings, etc. Even for simple tools that I use frequently — hammers, screwdrivers, pliers, pocket multitool — are decent quality. It's amazing how much time you can waste because you're using a lousy screwdriver.

          But my plate joiner (biscuit-slot cutter) is just a Harbor Freight purchase, because I plate-join some boards maybe once every three or four years. It'll probably last the rest of my lifetime. No need for a higher-quality one; the cheap one does the job.

          And my belt sander is the fourth Harbor Freight one I've owned, because I bought a bunch to sand down the clapboards on the Stately Manor after we cut the paint off them, and 1) I needed at least two at a time (there were four of us working on the project), and 2) I knew we were going to beat the hell out of them. As they broke down I cannibalized them for parts. Those four cheap belt sanders ended up costing about as much as one good belt sander, and they let us work in parallel, and the last one is still useful for those occasional jobs.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        >The gardening store is selling shovels

        But if the gardening store sold packs of shovel+rope+ski mask and advertise it as ideal for dealing with the family at Christmas and showed clips from Goodfellas in the ad...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another frivolous case

      The lawsuit argues that Amazon's Product Safety team was aware the clothes hook camera was intended for unlawful purposes. And to support that claim, it cites marketing that says the hidden camera "'won't attract attention' from the victim, who would presumably hang a towel to be used in drying her undressed body."

      Personally I'd like to see 230 revoked for on line sales, which has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        What in the name of His Majesty's Crown Jewels is 230?

        1. AndrueC Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Another frivolous case

          The best time to have a dental appointment?

        2. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: Another frivolous case

          Section 230 is a part of an American law exempting online platforms from liability for user-published content. It's not clear whether this already doesn't apply to a marketplace, especially one where you can list things without getting specific approval from the administrators of the marketplace, nor is it necessarily Amazon's defense here. However, they're clearly assuming that it will be and don't think it should apply. I'm not sure it would apply anyway and am more confident that Amazon's argument will be unrelated, so it doesn't seem very relevant to me.

          1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

            Re: Another frivolous case

            And in general, anyone making a statement about §230 without presenting a careful, detailed, nuanced, well-cited argument is almost certainly talking rubbish. It's a favorite hobgoblin among sophomoric critics of online expression.

    4. youmon

      Re: Another frivolous case

      I agree that the lawsuit sounds like someone trying to get a big payday. Sadly the article doesn't even mention the people who installed and spied through the hidden camera, hope they're getting some time in jail for this at least.

      https://www.amazon.com/ZXWDDP-Security-Recorder-Detection-Needed-Black/dp/B0CC95SXXF/

      It's still available on Amazon (assuming this is the same product). Finding more options available on other sites too (https://spycamcentral.com/product/cengferder-clothes-hook-hidden-spy-camera/). It's even being advertised for bathroom recording WTF.

      It's obviously not legal recording in a bathroom, so I don't understand why it's legal to even purchase a camera like this. Shouldn't there be some kind of checks or records for who buys these? The amount of different objects these spy cams are disguised as is truly concerning.

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        "Shouldn't there be some kind of checks or records for who buys these?"

        If you mean that there ought to be some checks, then you are free to propose that, but if you mean that those checks should exist already, I'm curious who you think would be doing that and what they would be doing specifically? The devices are not illegal. Their most popular uses probably are, and other uses may be limited, but they're not checking up on buyers because buyers haven't broken any law just by buying them.

    5. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

      Re: Another frivolous case

      Signed up after years of reading just to respond to this. You clearly didn't read the article. They didn't search for "hidden camera", they searched for "bathroom spy camera" which is an obvious illegal use pretty much everywhere, but definitely everywhere in the US. They also claim marketing of the item specifically mentioned usage that would be illegal (where someone would hang a towel and be naked), AND the product was reviewed and accepted by their Product Safety Team. All of those things are why Amazon MAY have some degree of liability, and why the judge allowed it to go forward. I'm not sure how Amazon would be expected to filter out all possible combinations of words that might end up indicating an illegal use, but they probably could with all the new "AI" capabilities, and probably before that even.

      I do question the idea that the marketing showed usage for hanging a towel in a bathroom where someone might be undressed. They just show a couple of towels, no bathroom, no other items that might suggest it's a bathroom. They're not even obviously what you might call bath towels. That probably will be a strong argument in Amazon's defense that it was not explicitly marketed for an illegal use. That single image is the only thing the plaintiff could base the illegal marketing claim on. It's probably all going to fall apart on that in the actual trial, if it ever goes to trial instead of being settled. I'm kind of surprised this wasn't brought up and used to dismiss the case already.

      However, the girl should absolutely be suing the actual "host" as well, either in the same case or separately, but you're right that they went for the party that has the deepest pockets. They should have also gone to the authorities and had the host arrested, as recording someone in a bathroom without consent IS absolutely illegal. I'll never understand why people let stuff like that go so long without taking the action that NEEDS to be taken, then after the statute of limitations has passed they come forward and just use a lawsuit, but I don't understand a lot of human behavior. I get that they're in Brazil, but they had plenty of time to take action, and I wonder how it ended up sitting for so long but eventually going to lawyers and a lawsuit. Did they talk to a lawyer early on? Sit on it for a long time then finally make a decision to talk to a lawyer?

      As someone else said, such devices may have legitimate uses, but the illegitimate uses may be so overwhelmingly bad and so much higher a percentage of the sales as to justify making them illegal, but it's unlikely this will happen.

      Some states in the US require two-party consent for recording of telecommunications, though West Virginia isn't one of them. This needs to be expanded to video recording and made a national law. I see no reason that you should be able to make a video recording of someone without consent, but just recording their voice can be illegal.

      1. aerogems Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        I read it, but I wonder if you read my comment in full.

        I agree the woman should be suing the people who bought the camera, and maybe even the company deliberately targeting the pedo/perv demographic, but saying Amazon is somehow responsible because they didn't stop someone from searching for a hidden camera is bullshit and an obvious "pay us and we'll go away" sort of argument. Large companies get sued like this all the time, and usually it is cheaper to just throw a few grand at people than to fight the individual case, which is exactly what this lawyer is betting on happening. This is a prime example of why people tend to hate the legal profession. There's no way you can write a filter so precisely that it will block a porn video talking about "breast exams" but will let through a video about doing a self-exam for lumps that might be cancerous. AI is nowhere near ready for that kind of task either. There's all kinds of things sold on Amazon that could be used for nefarious means, but are also full of perfectly legitimate uses. As George Carlin once mused, you could probably beat someone to death with the Sunday New York Times. Should we start banning the Sunday edition of newspapers, or regulating how thick they can be?

        I don't even disagree that filming people should require consent, assuming they're in a place where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, like a bedroom. I hope the WV police have taken action, though it's WV so it's probably a coin flip. However, unless they have evidence showing that Amazon had been made aware of this particular product and then failed to act, I'm simply not convinced that Amazon is in any way a legitimate party to the lawsuit. If they had such evidence, they would have presented it already.

        1. xcdb

          Re: Another frivolous case

          "However, unless they have evidence showing that Amazon had been made aware of this particular product and then failed to act"

          The judge's order references this multiple times:

          e.g.

          "Amazon failed to properly inspect John Doe’s camera three times—including an inspection by Amazon’s Product Safety team tasked with preventing the type of harm alleged here. ... (looking to the

          defendant’s conduct in light of its own policies in duty analysis). Despite these inspections, Amazon approved the camera"

          "These allegations raise a reasonable inference Amazon sold a camera knowing it would be used to record a third party in a bathroom without their consent."

          "Despite these inspections, Amazon approved the camera. ... Amazon then exercised control over the camera’s product description—including over the photographs encouraging using the camera in

          a private bathroom as a towel hook. ... Amazon then promoted the camera. ... Throughout all this, Amazon knew hidden cameras were used to spy on individuals in private spaces. ... Collectively, these allegations “permit the inference” Amazon knew its actions and omissions might expose others to a foreseeable high risk a third party would use the camera exactly as advertised—to surreptitiously record an individual in a private bathroom by using the camera as a towel hook."

          1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

            Re: Another frivolous case

            Amazon knows knives are used to kill people but still sell them and they must know they can be used for murder!

            1. xcdb

              Re: Another frivolous case

              Indeed. Again, covered many times in the judge's order.

              "Amazon approved and helped market John Doe’s camera. ... Amazon knew the camera’s product description suggested using the camera as a towel hook in the bathroom. ... Amazon cannot claim surprise when a consumer uses the camera that way."

              "It is not simply that Wells used the camera to capture illegal images of a minor. What matters is Wells used the camera “precisely as depicted on Amazon’s online retail store.” ... This use was foreseeable."

              So if Amazon were to advertise and sell a knife, explicitly suggesting it can be used for murder, I would imagine they could face similar legal consequences.

              1. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

                Re: Another frivolous case

                The description doesn't suggest using it as a towel hook in a bathroom. The image doesn't suggest using it as a towel hook in a bathroom. The image suggests using it as a hook to hold something that looks possibly like a towel, in an undefinable location with absolutely nothing that looks like a bathroom item other than a towel that can exist in any room.

          2. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

            Re: Another frivolous case

            >> "Amazon failed to properly inspect John Doe’s camera three times—including an inspection by Amazon’s Product Safety team tasked with preventing the type of harm alleged here. ... (looking to the

            defendant’s conduct in light of its own policies in duty analysis). Despite these inspections, Amazon approved the camera"

            "These allegations raise a reasonable inference Amazon sold a camera knowing it would be used to record a third party in a bathroom without their consent."

            "Despite these inspections, Amazon approved the camera. ... Amazon then exercised control over the camera’s product description—including over the photographs encouraging using the camera in

            a private bathroom as a towel hook.<<

            There is no indication that it "failed to properly inspect" the listing. You and the victim and lawyer are still basing all of this on the assumption that the image is of a bathroom towel hook. You're deciding with absolute certainty that the image is a bathroom towel hook. There is nothing in that image that implies that it's in a bathroom. So it comes down to whether a judge will think that it's reasonable that someone looking at the listing might have thought it was a bathroom towel hook AND therefore was advocating use of it in a bathroom. The victim and her lawyers are biased in their evaluation of the image, as is everyone reading about this case who knows that it was in fact used in a bathroom. A hook that is capable of being used in a bathroom is not automatically a bathroom hook, and a camera that is capable of being hidden in an illegal location is not automatically an illegal camera, just as a knife that is capable of stabbing someone is not automatically a murder weapon.

      2. Cliffwilliams44 Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        This is like suing Ford because someone drove an F-150 into your living room!

        It's the same twisted logic that gun control nuts want to use to sue gun manufacturers.

        We have an incident in the US where the mother of a criminal, who was shot and killed when be pulled a gun on an armed store clerk. Her claim is that the "store does not allow guns in the store, so her son believed no one would be armed in the store. Her lawyer is suing the store and the clerk for misleading her son! Seriously, you can't make this shit up!

    6. AVR Bronze badge

      Re: Another frivolous case

      Amazon run the marketplace and its search engine (the quoted search term was 'bathroom spy camera' BTW not 'hidden camera'), the issue with this particular camera in a coathanger was raised with them some time ago, and they didn't decide to do anything about it. They have the resources to do something about it because they're not a small to medium size company using off-the-shelf software with one guy figuring out how to write relevant regular expressions, they're one of the biggest companies in the world and they write their own damn software.

      Also while they have deep pockets that cuts both ways - wanna bet they've got good lawyers?

      1. doublelayer Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        I'd like to see your attempt at a regular expression that determines evil search terms versus normal ones. For example, I recently performed a few search terms for audio recorders that had to be very small, changing my wording of small over and over because the product listings kept giving me larger ones. That easily could have been to have a covert recorder, but that was not my intent. A filter would not know that, and dealing with false positives if it sounded an alarm on that would have wasted people's time. If Amazon is to blame here, it's for allowing that product, which is already not a definite victory. Also arguing that they should have detected abuse from a search string and done ... I'm not really sure what they were supposed to have done with that is a pretty ridiculous request.

    7. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Another frivolous case

      There's a medium sized elephant in the room that nobody's talking about.

      There' is no such thing as an 'aspiring actress' who's a minor, especially if the person is from another country. There's just no visa category for them. The process for sending children off to the US to go to school -- a legitimate activity -- requires active participation of her parents or guardian and someone to act as 'in loco parentis' to manage the welfare of the student. (The way its done at my wife's school is that the child ends up with a host family who usually has one or more daughters at the school.) Its a bit preposterous to assume that some minor girl is going to be allowed into the country to stay at some random person's place so they could 'aspirigly act' -- the closest our kids would get to showbiz would be the school play.

      We live quite close to Hollywood so we know all about the myth of Hollywood. (We also live adjacent to the San Fernado Valley which as most Reg readers won't know is a major hub of porn production.)

      Anyway, there's an expectation of a payday....but, seriously, I hope Amazon dukes it out. This sort of thing needs to be discouraged.

      1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        Aspiring actress just means someone that wants to be an actress. It’s not a job description.

        Also, filming a naked child here seems to be the big issue, not what she may have put on her immigration form,

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Another frivolous case

        She was just an exchange student, of which this country hosts many.

        Some editor at some tabloid somewhere probably found out she wanted to become an actress (many little girls do), and threw that in as a piece of tawdry titillation, which all the other news outlets picked up as is their wont. Or perhaps they made it up out of the whole-cloth to fill column-inches. Regardless, that's not what she was in the country for ... if it WAS, she kinda missed her target. West Virginia isn't exactly a hot-bet of cinematography.

        On the other hand, if she was looking for an education, there were much better states to choose from. WV also isn't exactly known for the quality of its education system.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hard to believe that case wasn't immediately thrown out. Amazon isn't spying on anyone, and there are plenty of legitimate uses for the camera, and its not illegal to sell it...

    The court systems are screwing America.

    1. Malcolm Weir

      What the article doesn't say is that at this stage, for a "motion to dismiss" to succeed, the court must treat every allegation in the complaint as true. So if the complaint alleges that Amazon encouraged the illegal use of the thing, then the court (at this stage) has to assume that's true. The next stage -- discovery -- is where the plaintiff tries to assemble supporting evidence for the allegations.

    2. Mostly Simian

      The article itself says that one claim before the court is that it is "categorically illegal to sell" these things in that state. ie it is part of a whole category of things that you are not permitted to sell.

      Now that hasn't been established (that's part of what the case is for) but you can't just assume it either (or that claim would have immediately been thrown out).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re: The court systems are screwing America.

      By not upholding the 14th?

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: re: The court systems are screwing America.

        What is this 14th you speak of?

        It just sounds like an unfinished sentence here in good ol' Blighty.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: re: The court systems are screwing America.

          The 24th you ask about is in referance to The 14th Amendment of the US Constution introduced after The (un)civil War in The US.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: re: The court systems are screwing America.

        >By not upholding the 14th?

        No member of the Corps should ever report for active duty in a ginger toupee

        I fail to see the relevance Mr Lister

        1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: re: The court systems are screwing America.

          >By not upholding the 14th?

          No member of the Corps should ever report for active duty in a ginger toupee

          I fail to see the relevance Mr Rimmer

          FTFY

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: re: The court systems are screwing America.

            Smeeeeeg Heeeeeed

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Accessory before the fact (that's Amazon, not the product!) and incitement seem clear enough from the account of the product description.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

    They need to shut this shit down.

    1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

      Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

      I'll get heavily downvoted by the gun-totin' second-amendment nutjobs (feel free to indicate that you are one by clicking that button: I like having my worldview confirmed), but yes, people who make and sell devices that are designed specifically to be used for mass killing (see, for example, assault rifles, which have no legitimate purpose whatsoever in the hands of the general public) while taking no responsibility for the endless mass killings they're used for should certainly be held accountable.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

        So, when the time comes to take up arms in order to get rid of the opressing government you'd have the peasants armed with single shooters, right?

        1. Lyndication

          Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

          An AR15 with civvy .556 ain't much better when plates are rendering .556 almost obsolete, hence the step-up to newer high-pressure 6.8mm cartridges to defeat modern plate. You're not far off turning up with the ol' family Springfield at that point, and that's to say nothing of mechanised/airborne support.

          I find it laughable that any weekend militia group thinks they can take on the same US Army they lionise with granddaddy's Vietnam era rifles.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

            But what is the critical mass of an American ?

            If you ran two examples of Homo Americanis-Walmartian together in their mobility scooters could you create an explosion?

            Or at least a small black hole

          2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

            >thinks they can take on the same US Army they lionise with granddaddy's Vietnam era rifles.

            Presumably if they used whatever Vietnam era rifle the winners were using they would stand a better chance?

        2. collinsl Silver badge

          Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

          And what are you going to do with your pop-gun against an M1A1 or an Apache with hellfires?

        3. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

          Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

          Quite a few in the US would (amd do, loudly) argue that time has already arrived several times over, yet somehow this taking up of arms never happened.

          And it never will. The shear number of people needed to overthrow the current government, the organsiation and logistics required... it just ain't gonna happen. 2nd Amendment might have made sense back when it was written, but the size of the population, the sophistication and power of military equipment, training, supply etc. make any concerted action against the US government a short-lived mass suicide.

          Frnakly, another civil war seems much more likely.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

            >2nd Amendment might have made sense back when it was written

            Which is why it needs to be read in a modern context - and people need the right to own thermonuclear weapons

            This ridiculous 7 day waiting period for doomsday weapons is unconstitutional

            1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
              Boffin

              Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

              7 days? What's the free world come to!?! I want my Sphere'o'boom now, damnit! NOW!!!

              [Hubert Farnesworth ==> ]

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

            Yet somehow a bunch of unarmed people and a bloke in a stupid horned hat were on the verge of overthrowing the govt...

            1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

              Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

              Hardly.

              They scared some politicians on Capitol Hill and smashed up the place. That's 100% nowhere even close to "overthrowing the government".

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                I was told they were worse than 9/11!

                1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                  Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                  >I was told they were worse than 9/11!

                  Well it was Antifa and CIA actors and all setup by the MMB

                  1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

                    Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                    The Milk Marketing Board?

                    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                      Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                      Obviously they are the 3letter agency behind everything.

                      It's not even a good cover. Why does milk need marketing? It's milk, you drink it, it tastes like milk!

                      1. jake Silver badge

                        Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                        "Why does milk need marketing?"

                        Because intelligent humans are slowly realizing that milk is made for baby cows, not humans. The dairy industry is running scared and has massive numbers of lobbyists at both the state and federal level.

                        On the bright side, the price of cheese isn't rising.

                        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                          Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                          >milk is made for baby cows, not humans.

                          Well if you fall for "big milk" and their claim that the milk they sell comes from cows....

          3. Richard 12 Silver badge

            Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

            A lot of scholars believe that the 2nd Amendment was about states having their own armed forces (National Guard?), instead of delegating all defence to the federal government (which barely existed at the time).

            Others that it was about ensuring a critical mass of well-trained individuals able to use arms, much like the old English requirement for regular archery practice.

            Sadly, the "well-regulated" phrase seems to be completely ignored by rather a lot of people. The NRA used to be all about training and marksmanship, not blind worship of all firearms.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

              I'm sure we've been through this before... the well regulated bit has no relation to the right to bear arms.

              Lifted from someone else on el reg forums:

              A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

              In the first clause "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State...", the word "militia" was understood at the time to mean all able-bodied male citizens committed together to defend each other from foreign invaders or a tyrannical government (should the need arise) in order to secure and defend the freedom of the states. The phrase "well-regulated" was similarly understood to be a requirement that these citizens remain armed, trained, and vigilant. don't make the mistake of applying the modern use of "regulation" onto this phrase.

              This understanding is enhanced by the second clause, which clause plainly states that citizens have the right to own and carry weapons, and the US government is prohibited from infringing on that right:

              "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

              Thus, the constitution protects Americans' right to be armed and ready to defend the US and the Constitution, against all aggressors both foreign and domestic.

              1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

                Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                However you interpret it, it's undeniable that it's very badly and ambiguously written. I say this as a professional editor. It's not even a proper sentence.

              2. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

                Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

                The State, capitalized, means the US Government, not individual states composing The United States of America.

          4. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

            Re: So, when the time comes to take up arms

            The second amendment made sense when it was created because the definitions of the words used were clearly understood and not deliberately obfuscated. The militias of the time were needed because a national military could not be present everywhere or respond quickly enough to an outside invasion. They were not there to prevent the national government from enforcing its own laws in its own territory just because some dickheads thought they had the right to violate laws. (And the current "militias" and other gun rights advocates create the situation themselves that they are afraid the government will attack them for. They want to have guns to prevent the government from coming for their guns.)

        4. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

          So, when the time comes to take up arms in order to get rid of the opressing government you'd have the peasants armed with single shooters, right?

          Didn't they try something like that a couple of years back in the US?

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

            "Didn't they try something like that a couple of years back in the US?"

            No. Those idiots were only armed with a massive case of willful, intentional and stubborn ignorance. They were doomed to failure from the git-go.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

      If only the perv bathroom spy camera had included a built-in gun it would be allowed

      1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

        Re: I imagine gun manufacturers and sellers are watching very closley

        I was thinking not arm as in gun but arm (and hand) as in take off the balaclava so we can see the face

  5. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    In this case yes it sounds like a correct decision - the express and stated purpose of the device is a felony, even if the device itself is legal - but cases like this need to be viewed with a very jaundiced eye. Holding manufacturers or retailers liable for the illegal use of an otherwise legal product is a very slippery slope indeed.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Doesn't Texas ban the sale of almost all lab glassware cos of the WarOnDrugs™

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        I don't know; I'm in the UK.

    2. biddibiddibiddibiddi Bronze badge

      Hidden camera recording without consent is not, in itself, a felony anywhere in the US. (Yet for some reason, audio recording without consent CAN be illegal, depending on the state.) It only becomes illegal if the recording is being done in a location where the recorded person has a reasonable expectation of personal privacy for certain activities, such as changing rooms, a bathroom, a breastfeeding room. At no point in the marketing is usage in such private places mentioned explicitly, all the uses described are legal, and the image used in the claim which they say indicates that it is meant to be used in a bathroom is questionable. All it shows is some towel-like things on the hooks, and a shelf. There are no bathroom-specific items shown. So the plaintiffs will absolutely first have to get a judge or jury to decide that the image could be understood by a "reasonable person" as being a picture of a bathroom and therefore a suggestion that the camera be used in an illegal manner. IF they decide that is the case, then they have to show that Amazon willfully or negligently ignored the "obvious" marketing of illegal usage during their normal review process. The fact that "bathroom spy camera" searches bring these devices up can support the claim that Amazon doesn't do enough to block it, but it doesn't necessarily support a claim that Amazon facilitates illegal uses, since Amazon's search functionality is WILDLY variable in its ability to return relevant results and often will return results that only match a single word, or no words at all. And just not preventing people from finding items that could be used illegally probably isn't an actionable thing, legally. (There doesn't seem to be any indication that anyone actually REPORTED the item as being marketed for illegal uses and it was ignored. The plaintiff is only claiming that Amazon's normal review processes didn't catch it.)

      But none of this will ever actually come up, because it will be settled before going to trial, like so many things that desperately need legal precedent to be set but never do.

  6. Herring` Silver badge

    Amazon

    Since it's turned into a bazaar of dodgy shite, I did wonder whether they might be liable for something. Selling spycams wasn't at the top of my list though - I thought it was more likely electric transportation things with charger/battery combos that would burn

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Amazon

      It would be illegal for them to sell electrical stuff without CE/UKCA but in the USA you are free to kill yourself.

      But if course Amazon doesn't sell you anything, it merely recommends the product, takes your money and delivers the goods. They are actually sold by DodgyChineseElectronics Inc and so Amazon can't be held in any way responsible

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Amazon

        Amazon Echo?

  7. sketharaman

    Fastest way to bankrupt Amazon

    Please tell me this hook spy cam is the only product sold on Amazon that can be used for illegal purposes? The other day, I was watching a movie called THE K!LLERS on Netflix. At one point, the protagonist buys a FOB COPIER from Amazon to duplicate the keycard to the villain's home. If the villain sues Amazon... If everyone starts suing Amazon for such products, it would be the fastest way to bankrupt the world's fourth largest company. While on the subject, it would also be the fastest way to bankrupt the world's largest company WalMart, which also sells similar products.

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