Electric vehicles earn shocking report card for reliability

Consumer Reports' latest car reliability survey suggests electric vehicles (EVs) are causing owners more problems than their hybrid or conventional counterparts. According to the survey, based on owner responses on more than 330,000 vehicles, EVs from the past three model years suffered a whopping 79 percent more problems than …

[cyberdemon]

Encoders

Rotary position encoders are probably the most sensitive piece of an EV. It lets the drive electronics know what angle the rotor is at, so that it can apply the correct field to produce maximum torque. Without it, the motor cannot produce much torque at all. If the motor-encoder coupling slips by one degree, or if the electrical shielding is sub-par, it would force the EV into an extremely low power limp mode, if not disable it entirely.

I would guess that encoder issues are probably the second most common EV drivetrain trouble, the first being battery problems. If one of thousands of temperature, current or voltage sensors in the battery is dodgy, it probably also would put the vehicle into limp mode. (Yes, thousands of single-point failure possibilities. That should make any reliability engineer shudder. An 800V battery needs 200 (parallel groups of) cells in series, the voltage and temperature of each needs to be individually monitored. If one goes above 4.2V or below 2V then it is a safety hazard. So voltage sensors are often doubled up for safety, and series cell strings are often doubled up for reliability)

[vincent himpe]

Re: Encoders

Some technical information to get rid of misconceptions:

1) Encoders are not used for rotor position (for exactly the reasons you mention : slipping. The three phase motor has a PWM drive mechanism using half bridge topology. A hardware block monitors the current in each winding. The hardware can predict, based on the currents, when the magnetic field will cross a pole. For a very short time (called the commutation window) the PCM drive to the winding is stopped by tristating the H-bridge. A voltage comparator checks when the polarity of the back-emf changes. At this eact point the rotor has passed the winding and commutation in the H-bridge resumes.

This is nothing new. It has been done in harddisks for 20 years. It's called a torque optimiser. No need for magnet sensors, magnetic couplings.

It used to be you needed access to the center tap of the motor but there is a solution to create an artificial center tap using a resistive bridge and some sample and hold amplifiers.

2: There is no thousands of sensors in a battery pack. i can't speak for all batteries but the ones i know of have only a few tens. the heat gradient over short distance is not large due to the thermal conductivity. Also the cell topology not a parallel lump of strings. you would lose the stirng if one cells goes out or if the fuse blows. They are a single string- of parallel cells. more like a heavy chain. each cell has its own fuse in the form of a bond wire. if a cell gets damaged the fuse will pop and the cells isolates itself from the parallel bank. In practice they use banks and chains made from banks. if you make strings of individual cells you would lose the entire string. if a single cell goes out in a bank the rest of the bank still works and does not interrupt the string so you don't lose the string.

The battery management system can sense the loss of cells in a bank and instructs the balancer circuitry to take this into account.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

No, having worked for a manufacturer of BMSs, I can tell you, each supercell (a bunch of cells in parallel, producing 2-4.2V collectively) is individually monitored, twice. You can't rely on string voltage to tell you if one cell is failing. Similar for temperature. This is why E-Scooters (which are not well-regulated, unlike automotive batteries) keep exploding, whereas EVs don't explode quite so often. The only thing that you can monitor at string-level is current.

As for encoders, some (less efficient) drivetrains use Hall sensors for low-speed commutation and back-EMF for high-speed, but the more efficient designs use synchronous commutation, i.e. they rely on an encoder. They can fall back to other methods of commutation in the 'limp mode' that I mentioned.

> if you make strings of individual cells you would lose the entire string. if a single cell goes out in a bank the rest of the bank still works and does not interrupt the string so you don't lose the string.

As I said, they use multiple strings, made of parallel groups (called supercells). But if a cell within a supercell fuses, then the capacity of the supercell is lowered, so you need to monitor the (super-)cell voltage to detect this, otherwise the lower-capacity supercell will reach a dangerous voltage before the whole string does.

[vincent himpe]

Re: Encoders

and how many supercells are there in the pack ? not thousands.

Again , i can't speak for every manufacturer how they do it. I only know how the ones i worked for did it. I've worked on several, for cars, space (launcher, rocket and payload) and aircraft. Same for the encoder. You can use contactless encoders that sense the magnetic field ( not hall ) . Use rogowski coils for current and melexis field sensors for rotation. I'm well aware how BMS systems work. . Matched cells in a supercell, each individual cell bonded with a fusable wire. If the cell shorts or is mechanically damaged the fuse will blow and the cell detaches from the pack. Voltage does not change but the max current does. During charge the cell voltage will climb faster for this supercell and the load balancer will kick in on this supercell first. This gives you feedback of how many cells are lost in the supercell. There are techniques to determine the overall state of the chain.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

There are ~200 supercells per parallel string in an 800V pack as I said. But there are multiple sensors for each supercell, and if there are multiple strings, then multiply that again. We are splitting hairs between "hundreds" and "thousands" of sensors. Contactless encoders are still encoders.. But the fact remains that there are many more things to go wrong in an EV than in an ICE vehicle, which can be largely mechanical, and easy to maintain.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

Are you sure all the sub battery components are all individuall monitored and they are not wired in parallel for less sensors ?

[Dafyd Colquhoun]

Re: Encoders

Decent battery systems monitor each cell. I developed analytics for a stationary grid battery system that had lots of cells in a module, multiple modules in a string, and several strings in the overall battery. Voltages and temperatures were monitored at cell, module and string levels. Yes, that's a lot of cells (784 in this system). But a good module-level BMS talking to a system-level BMS can manage it.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

> Are you sure all the sub battery components are all individuall monitored and they are not wired in parallel for less sensors ?

You need high voltage to get the power, you can't transfer hundreds of kilowatts at four volts because you'd need 100,000 Amps (more, because the heating losses go with the square of current), so the "wiring" (copper ingots) would weigh more than the car. The top speed of the motor is also limited by the voltage.

So EV batteries run at 800 Volts, that is the most common standard.

The way to get more volts out of a battery is to put cells in series. Not all of them, but groups of them, called supercells. An 800V battery has at least 200 of those (some have multiple strings in parallel, so 400 or 600 supercells), and yes, they are all individually monitored.

[MachDiamond]

Re: Encoders

"So EV batteries run at 800 Volts, that is the most common standard."

Nominal 400v packs are much more common.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

THis is the America thing, where World Series means the world, except world doesnt mean world, it means Tesla.

[EricB123]

Re: Encoders

Wow, it's been ages since I got to read a cyberduel on El Reg!

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

If this was half true, then how come there are quite a number of EV car fires caused by spontaneous combuston of the cells ?

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

Because even if you monitor every super-cell and have fuses between each cell in a super-cell, it is still possible for a li-ion cell to burst into flames spontaneously, at what should be a safe voltage and temperature. Microscopic dendrites can grow inside (when it is charged too quickly when nearly full, for example), they don't completely go away on discharge, and they grow bigger on the next charge. When they are too big they can internally short circuit the cell. And if its neighbours were already warm, the whole pack can go up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: reliability engineer shudder

I'm not a reliability engineer. But I had an EE class in it in University. Yes, all those connections do reduce reliability.

My room is cold, that's what really made me shudder reading that, right?

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

I find this hard to believe, we have lot of spinning components from fans, to motors in vacuum cleaners, and rotors and i dont think ive heard them produce this much trouble. I would say ESC are a smostly solved problem.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

An EV traction drive is not an "ESC" like you would have on a toy helicopter.

It needs to work at high stall torque, even a hobby ESC can't do that without sensors. It needs to be powerful and efficient across a wide range of operating points, unlike a fan, vacuum cleaner or a HDD platter, and it needs to respond to rapidly changing loads.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

Rapid changing loads ?

What rapid changing loads, are we are talking dynamic roads that go from flat to vertical or are we tlking about adding and removing a trailer with a wind farm on the back whilst on the road ?

[J. Cook]

Re: Encoders

... More like "driver has pushed pedal to floor from a dead to show off how much starting line pull their new toy has" rapidly changing load. I know I've done that in a few vehicles I've test driven, just to see what they do on a straight line from the stop sign. :D :D :D

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Encoders

Those machines are at their limits, they just appear to be small comapred to a car. I would argue a helicopter with its tiny ESC and 3S or whatevedr battery has far more variable load than a car and its thousands of batteries.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

Er, no.

Basically a toy helicopter rotor has no friction until it gets up to speed. It doesn't need to produce power at low speeds, so it is possible to use sensorless (back EMF) commutation.

Encoders allow a brushless motor to produce torque at low or zero speed.

Even a (brushless) toy car needs Hall sensors, because it cannot, without low-speed torque, spin the brushless motor to a speed where the back-EMF can be measured, because the wheel is in contact with the road.

An EV doesn't need a clutch, but it does need an electronic sensor (an encoder) instead.

While it's possible to maintain and replace a mechanical component after the manufacturer has gone bust, it's harder to maintain and replace an electronic component

[Dafyd Colquhoun]

Re: Encoders

Who is still using encoders on variable speed induction motor drives? Back EMF is more than enough to precisely control the motor. I've seen demos where a scoop on an arm is connected to the shaft of an induction motor and it can throw a ball into a basket.

Back EMF sensor-less drive tech is more than 20 years old. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/955655

[heyrick]

Re: Encoders

"Back EMF is more than enough to precisely control the motor."

Isn't this pretty much how modern washing machines handle their motors?

[cyberdemon]

Re: Encoders

Back EMF commutation of a synchronous motor can't produce torque at zero speed. EVs use synchronous motors, not induction motors, as far as I am aware.

[werdsmith]

Re: Encoders

the FUD campaign against EVs has moved up a gear lately.

So much bullshit and counter bullshit, anything unreferenced just disregard.

[jake]

Re: Encoders

Turnabout's fair play, no? It's about time the reality of EV's problems were brought to the fore instead of studiously being ignored.

It'll all come out in the wash.

[chriskno]

Re: Encoders

I'm not competent to engage in the argument from a technical viewpoint. What I can say is that my EV is now 5 and a half years old, is totally reliable and still has 100% of its battery capacity available. This sounds like FUD from the ICE community.

[elaar]

Hardly surprising though is it. Who would have thought that newer technology, electrically far more complex, would be more unreliable to begin with than a combustion engine that's had a century to be perfected/refined reliablility wise?

My 25year old gas boiler far outlived my brother's condensing boiler than had a corroded heat-exchanger after just 3 years. Far more reliable, but an awful 65% efficiency. We need the technological progress, and the reliability will catch up.

[cyberdemon]

Like most technologies, design focus has shifted towards performance and efficiency, at the expense of lifetime, with a whiff or forced obsolescence. There is no fundamental reason why a condensing boiler can't have a cast iron heat exchanger like your 25yo boiler probably has, but it would be more expensive, it would take longer to warm up (so can't be used as a combi boiler) and would be (slightly) less efficient than a heat exchanger made with the thinnest possible stainless steel to get it past its 3 year warranty.

After the 3 year design life, you need a new boiler. Bonus for the manufacturer. It's the lightbulb cartel all over again, but scaled up.

[DS999]

There's no way it has a 3 year design life. Something like that would have a far longer warranty. I helped my mom get her furnace/AC replaced a couple years ago, and parts like heat exchangers were warrantied for 10 years. If one corroded out after three years she would get two free replacements under that warranty!

[Richard 12]

10-12 year warranty

All mains gas boilers on the market in the UK have at least a 10 year warranty.

Some have 12 years to differentiate them in the market.

Various companies offer service plans that cost about 10-15% of a boiler installation, and cover all aspects of maintenance, including full replacement should it be irreparable.

Obviously their cost to replace is under half what a consumer pays to install a boiler, but the average boiler must last more than a decade before "expensive" repairs or these companies wouldn't offer those products.

[ilovesaabaeros]

Re: 10-12 year warranty

"All mains gas boilers on the market in the UK have at least a 10 year warranty."

Not true, my new build house has an Ideal boiler with a pathetic 2 year warranty.

[Roopee]

Whoosh!

@cyberdemon was using an analogous example, ie illustrating a principle…

[david 12]

A condensing boiler is designed to extract so much heat from the exhaust that exhaust cases condense into sulfuric acid and water. Older, less efficient boilers were specifically designed to not be condensing, to protect the exhaust system from corrosion. Newer, more efficient boilers are designed to require low-sulfur fuel to protect the exhaust system from corrosion.

If your supplier is cheating and not providing low-sulfur fuel, or if your condensing furnace is not adjusted exactly right, it will corrode. A cast iron heat exchanger, no matter how heavy, will not protect you from these problems.

[DS999]

No it does not require any sort of special fuel

The condensate is acidic, so you want to have a neutralizer (which is literally just a tube along the pipe that is filled with calcite) to prevent acidic discharge from damaging pipes or etching concrete (if it is drained into a nearby floor drain)

I had a condensing hot water heater installed in the restaurant/bar I used to own, and it ran off ordinary natural gas.

[david 12]

Re: No it does not require any sort of special fuel

https://www.britannica.com/science/natural-gas/Composition-and-properties-of-natural-gas

"Sulfur compounds are removed in processing, as they are toxic when breathed, are corrosive to plant and pipeline facilities, and are serious pollutants if burned"

Condensing boilers. if burning lean for high efficiency, and condensing for high efficiency, condense nitric acid, which corrodes cast iron and requires stainless steel. If the (variable amount of) natural sulfur hasn't been removed from the "natural" gas, the condensate also includes too much sulfuric acid, even if the burner isn't set lean.

The requirement to treat the condensate depends on your jurisdiction and the size of your boiler and where you are discharging the condensate. In any case, the point where it condenses is subject to acid attack, and must be thermally conductive and corrosion resistant. Cast Iron isn't suitable. The condensate pipes used to be stainless steel, but are now often plastic.

[John H Woods]

Re: We need the technological progress...

This is often neglected --- even if EVs are never as good as ICEs, we're going to have to switch to them. ICEs will always consume a finite resource, not oil as we first thought, but "space" in the atmosphere to put the resulting CO2.

[Snowy]

Re: We need the technological progress...

ICEs will always consume a finite resource

We could make unnatural petrol with the CO2 from the atmosphere and in doing so create a new technological carbon cycle.

[cyberdemon]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Yes just like the "negative emissions" from BECCS that Drax pretends exists.

In reality, they are chopping down forests to burn, destroying ecosystems and polluting the air with far worse emissions than the dirtiest of dirty brown coal, all the while collecting "green" subsidies from the UK Taxpayer!

[Snowy]

Re: We need the technological progress...

You can add carbon credits into that scam too.

In theory if you grow more wood than you cut down it is carbon negative but that is still going to come at the cost of the ecosystem.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"We could make unnatural petrol with the CO2 from the atmosphere"

That would be ethanol, no?

_{Some prefer methanol, but I'm lazy and have taken the easy route.}

[StudeJeff]

Re: We need the technological progress...

No, not ethanol, we can combine CO2 and hydrogen and create gasoline, Diesel, or any other hydrocarbon. All it takes is CO2 (from carbon capture or the atmosphere), hydrogen and lots of energy.

You could, theoretically, set up such an installation on a seashore, use direct solar energy to distill seawater, and then electricity from panels or windmills to make the gasoline. No input other than seawater and sunlight, and gasoline output.

More efficiently you could set up the installation over a white hydrogen well. The hydrogen could power the system as well as being feedstock for the fuel.

Porsche is has a pilot plant in operation even now. https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/20/porsche-pumps-first-synthetic-fuel-as-chilean-plant-finally-starts-producing/

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Why waste the time and energy converting it to gasoline when every gasoline powered car on the planet runs just fine on the very easily produced Ethanol? (Sometimes with a little rework that amounts to nothing more than replacing seals and slightly increasing the amount of fuel entering the combustion chamber).

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Yes what a brilliant idea. we could destroy all the forests of the world and turn the planet into one big corn field to grow ethanol, so morons could spend hours upon hours driving just to get out and buy a coffee and drive back home again.

[Snowy]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Did not say grow stuff to make the fuel out of.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

I don't recall you suggesting driving for hours just to get a cup of coffee, either.

The CowHorseFrog entity is inventing things to argue about. There's a word for that ...

[Graham Dawson]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Politician?

Ooh! Journalist?

[IamStillIan]

Re: We need the technological progress...

The sad part is that this could have been a major part of the solution.

Unfortunately vested interests denying we had a problem inhibited progress, so the technology isn't ready, and we don't have time to wait for it.

[vtcodger]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"We could make unnatural petrol with the CO2 from the atmosphere."

WE can do no such thing. At least not at any scale beyond that required to run a demo. Our great, great, ever so great grandkids might be able to do it. BUT ONLY IF "we" plug away at developing the technology and have it on the shelf when we start to run short of fossil fuels. My guess is that we will start to run short of fossil fuels sooner than anyone expects. Yes, the supply of stored hydrocarbons is vast. No one really knows how vast. But don't underestimate the vastness of the demand as billions of goat herders and subsistence farmers/workers in the developing world get richer and demand stuff like heat in winter, refrigeration, tractors, game consoles, vacations in distant lands, and other essentials of modern life.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

WE are doing exactly that.

Grow corn[0]. Corn takes carbon out of the atmosphere. Harvest corn, leave all but the kernels in the field. Plow the trash under, thus sequestering most of the plant's carbon[1]. Mash the corn. Ferment it. Distill it. Presto: Fuel from the atmosphere that virtually any petrol/gasoline engine can be run on.

Not only fuel, but fuel that sequesters far more carbon than it re-introduces to the atmosphere when burned, and is thus a net carbon sink.

[0] In the coming year I'll be experimenting with a corn/sorghum hybrid that promises more fermentables.

[1] Seriously. Try weighing a complete dried corn/maize plant (including roots!) against the kernels produced by that plant. We're talking over 90% being carbon-filled trash. (Perhaps you don't know that most corn stalks, which can easily top 8 feet, only produce a single ear of corn?)

[cyberdemon]

Re: We need the technological progress...

What you've basically just said is that Corn is an extremely inefficient extractor of CO2 from the atmosphere, and that all of the Biofuels industry are effectively burning food.

Your idea could work if we had an unlimited amount of land and fertile soil to grow crops on, but the fact that there are many people in the world going hungry, suggests that we do not.

Also, do your corn stalks not rot down and produce Methane / CO2? I doubt if it is all really sequestered

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Are you on a crusade against ICE, or are you on a crusade against atmospheric CO2?

The corn is a great extractor of carbon, only a portion of which is (easily) converted to alcohol.

I'm not extracting fuel from food. I grow the food elsewhere on the farm (I give my excess away. too.), Sometimes I grow food in the same space as the corn, alternating a soybean crop with the corn crop improves the productivity of both.

Yes, the bugs decomposing bio produce methane (itself a fuel; don't think I haven't been thinking about this aspect ... ), however the bulk of the carbon still remains in the ground. Dig into any compost heap, anywhere. and do the analysis for yourself.

I'm doing my part, and this place has effectively become a net carbon sink.

The world's overpopulation problem is WAY outside the scope of my little farm. The only answer that I am aware of is truly effective and freely available birth control, and women being in charge of their own bodies. Sadly, the pandemic called "religion" will never allow either to happen.

[vtcodger]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"WE are doing exactly that. ... Distill it. Presto: Fuel from the atmosphere that virtually any petrol/gasoline engine can be run on."

Sorry, I guess I should have addressed that in my post. But it would have made a rather long post. The major problem with your somewhat utopian scenario is distillation. Making fermented corn mash into 190 proof whiskey -- which is what corn ethanol pretty much is -- takes a lot of energy. In the US, that's mostly done with natural gas which is abundant and pretty cheap. Cheap in North America. Not necessarily elsewhere. There have been a number of studies that conclude that the energy budget for corn ethanol is slightly positive in the best growing areas and actually negative in less favored areas. Bottom line -- after one takes into account fertilization, mechanized field work, harvesting, and conversion to fuel, corn ethanol is a relatively inexpensive way to convert natural gas to a liquid fuel. That's not a bad thing. But a replacement for fossil fuel it is not. (BTW petroleum from Alberta Oil shales is pretty much the same story. How to the get the hydrocarbons out of the shale? Steam heated by Natural gas.)

Can ethanol be distilled more cheaply? Maybe. Solar distillation MIGHT work. But I suspect only in lower latitudes. Almost certainly not here in Vermont where corn is grown, but making a crop is problematic some years because of the short growing season. By the time you got your mash fermented, you'd be trying to use solar heat with an eight hour day, a maximum sun angle of about 25 degrees and solar collectors likely covered with ice or snow. The only study I've seen says solar distillation of ethanol is not economic even in the tropics, but I'm not sure that's the final word.

How about ethanol from sugar cane? Maybe. I've never seen an energy budget for that. Maybe it'll work. But Sugar cane is a tropical crop and it won't grow well even in some parts of the tropics. It needs a LOT of water.

How about biofuel crops that don't require distillation? Maybe. I tried once to figure out if it was possible to grow enough oil palms to support modern air travel. My conclusion. Maybe, probably not. Too many unknowns to be sure. BTW, environmentalists loathe palm oil. I'm not sure I disagree. Endless rows of oil palm trees are not my idea of living in harmony with nature.

My point remains. We do not currently have the technologies to feed 7 or 8 o 10 million people and fuel a modern civilization. It might be a good idea to have those technologies in hand before we run out of fossil fuels.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"Making fermented corn mash into 190 proof whiskey -- which is what corn ethanol pretty much is -- takes a lot of energy."

Yep. Fortunately I have a planet full of free energy. I use a GSHP to provide heat for mashing, fermenting and distilling. The various electronic bits are powered by a solar+battery setup.

"after one takes into account fertilization, mechanized field work, harvesting, and conversion to fuel"

My fertilizer is produced by cows, sheep, hogs, horses and chickens, and I alternate soy beans and corn (25 acres of each. The beans are sold to artisan tofu and soy sauce makers). The field work is done by gasoline to ethanol converted tractor (itself a potential hazard, admittedly, especially when it comes to combining), and I've already addressed conversion. Note that I'm only producing about 175 bushels of corn per acre. I could easily up that to around 250 or more with modern seed, fertilizer and pest control techniques ... but I'm experimenting with near-zero input costs. Even my seed is the family varietal, developed by my Grandfather in the 1920s for animal feed and sour mash whiskey.

Bottom line: With the current setup, it takes under 250 gallons of fuel to produce 12,000 gallons of fuel on 25 acres. If I cared enough, I could probably drop that to well under 200 gallons.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Perhaps we could just grow lots of sugar cane, use solar energy to turn that into sugar and instead of putting it in our tea and coffee just store it - which would be sequestered carbon...

[cyberdemon]

Re: We need the technological progress...

> My point remains. We do not currently have the technologies to feed 7 or 8 o 10 million people and fuel a modern civilization.

But we do! It was called Nuclear Power, but the green lobby killed it.

It is now prohibitively expensive because the more it spends on safety, the less the uninformed masses trust it.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"but the green lobby killed it."

Yep. The hippies have effectively destroyed the planet for humans.

As we told the uneducated fucking idiots they were doing back in the '70s.

[Snowy]

Re: We need the technological progress...

The technology while not here to do a scale is not as far away as you think https://news.mit.edu/2023/engineers-develop-efficient-fuel-process-carbon-dioxide-1030

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

"ICEs will always consume a finite resource"

My over-the-road fleet of formerly petrol/gasoline powered ICEs now all run on ethanol, made from corn/maize grown here.

"but "space" in the atmosphere to put the resulting CO2"

I put far more carbon into the ground (I leave the trash in the fields when combining) than I exhaust out of the vehicles, making the running of those ICE vehicles a net carbon sink. At 175 bushels per acre, each bushel of which can make about 2.75 gallons of alcohol, my little 25 acres of corn can provide about 12,000 gallons of fuel, which is much, much more than we need. Rocket surgery it ain't.

_{To answer the obvious question, no, I'm not aging the excess fuel in oak barrels. Yet. Need the licenses first.}

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: We need the technological progress...

You do realise that EV consume significant amounts of resources and produce lots of carbon as well.

Mines dont run on trees and sunshine, Those roads that cars rn on, well setting concrete also produces carbon co2. Anything that keeps cars of all kinds running is part of the problem and not the solution. There are many many parts of EV and ICE that produce co2, yoau re a fool if you think its only about the exhaust pipe.

And we havent even mentioned the toxic waste that are the batteries...

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Or we could just drive less....

But hey fatsos want to drive for hours just to get out , buy a coffee and ghen drive tens hours back home, so they can call that a holiday.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: We need the technological progress...

If this is how you spend your holidays I'll take your word for it that that happens. However we could start by looking at a daily occurrence for many people: commuting for work. Let's get it into the heads of TPTB that this is unsustainable.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: We need the technological progress...

My statement never said I do that on my holidays, i was clearly commenting on others.

I live in a small town hours from a big city, i see it all the time, people drive hours and just sit in their caravans and they NEVER walk more than a few steps. How do i know , i know this because they tie up their dogs and i make suggestions like taking them to the dog beach just round the corner, and NONE Of them have a clue there is a beach there.

There are plenty of others that come down and all they do is eat, they are literally massively overweight and every time there a long weekend or holidays the same community comes down and thats what they do.

One can watch countless shows on tv or other places and its always the same loser just sit down and eat. Every single holiday or travel show is the same, they show us the beds in the hotel and they show us the coffee place nd thts basically it. The presenter is too fucking lazy to go anywhere else, ive seen the same story about my own town.

[jake]

Re: We need the technological progress...

So basically you sit in your little town, doing nothing ... and yet when other folks come to your little town to sit and do nothing, it is somehow a bad thing?

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: We need the technological progress...

Obviously if i walk, ride a bike around town and see these individuals i must be doing more than them.

You are obviously one of those losers who doesnt do more than eat, shit and drink and for the rest of the year you waste your life in traffic and at the office.

Congratulations on your prize.

[elsergiovolador]

Add to that, these designs are created by poorly paid engineers who don't have reasons to care much about the work they do.

Engineer wage no longer buys you a nice house with a garage, large garden and two cars. I know engineers in their 40s who still do flatshare and still save for a deposit while the ladders keep going up each year.

Since every big corporation don't value their workers and customers get accustomed to poor products there is no reason for any change to happen.

If the trend goes on, we will be looking at completely different metrics of EV quality. Like you are expected to drive it X years before it explodes and tears you to pieces or this 10/10 car can do 100 journeys without a service!

People are still going to buy it because there will be no alternative. Unless someone comes up with retrofitting ICE into EV. Then we will have:

(officer) "Do you know the reason I stopped you?"

(driver) "No, sir. What seems to be the officer, problem?"

(officer) "I think I saw your car was giving up smoke and I can't smell cannabis. May I see your batteries?"

(driver) "I swear, officer, I just had a spliff. It's like my battery, I cannot drive when I am not high!"

(officer) "I really don't care about that. Again, can I see your batteries?"

(driver) (unzips trousers) "Here are my two batteries and a stick".

(officer) "Step out of a suspected ICE car now!"

(driver) (speaks to the car) "Oh Tessie, I knew this was a bad idea. What have I done!" (cries)

(officer) "I count to 5 and if you don't step out, I'll zap you with the taser!"

(officer) "1... 3... 2... *Steve!* What's after 2?"

(steve) "yhmm... Let me ask Chat GPT. Hi ChatGPT what's after two?"

(ChatGPT) "I am sorry I can't answer that. All numbers are equal. Can I help you with anything else?"

(steve) "Chat GPT says all numbers are equal. Why did you want to put them in order anyway?"

(officer) (starts crying) "This is what we used to do in my days"

(driver) (plays Charlie - Spacer Woman loud)

(officer) (starts bopping his head)

(steve) (starts crying)

(driver) (slowly drives away)

[ecofeco]

Bravo. Brav-effing-o.

I would bet good money on this future. Unfortunately, I'm poor so I'm having to bet my life. No, not happy at all about that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless someone comes up with retrofitting ICE into EV.

My suggestion is a diesel Hilux engine and running gear in a stainless steel Cybertruck.

Probably have to take to the floor pan with a sledge hammer to install a transmission tunnel...

[Neil Barnes]

Pretty sure I've already seen (though not watched) someone dropping a V8 into a Tesla.

[Mark #255]

Condensing boilers

As a counter-anecdote, my condensing boiler (Worcester Bosch) is 19½ years old, and going strong.

[en.es]

Re: Condensing boilers

oops - jinxed it! :)

[Lurko]

Re: Condensing boilers

"As a counter-anecdote, my condensing boiler (Worcester Bosch) is 19½ years old, and going strong."

On the other hand, it probably hasn't been in condensing mode for any worthwhile fraction of it's life for the simple reason that most heating systems don't deliver lower enough return temperatures. I suppose if you live in a new build with a custom design heating system where the return temperature is 45C or lower then maybe it has. Sadly the overwhelming majority of system cannot ever achieve that except in the first 15 minutes from cold start.

[Snowy]

Odd

That the hybrid cars did not have more problem seeing that it has both a conventional engine and EV parts I wonder why this was.

[AndrueC]

Re: Odd

Some hybrids (maybe all but certainly Toyota's) actually have fewer moving parts than a conventional ICE vehicle. Toyota's Hybrid Synergy drive doesn't have a gearbox for instance. Instead it uses a set of planetary gears that remain meshed all the time. As a result the power train of an HSD equipped vehicle is simpler than that of a traditional ICE mechanically. The only clever bit is the ECU logic which adjusts the inputs to the power split device.

The traction battery is of course an extra not present on conventional ICE vehicles but at present they use fairly conventional technology (the older Corolla/Auris models use Li-On for instance) although later models have moved to NiMh and solid state batteries are apparently coming soon for hybrids.

But overall it's established technology with just some moderately clever programming and fewer mechanical parts. It's not surprising that hybrid vehicles like Toyota's are reliable.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Odd

Personally, I am waiting for a "series hybrid" with a decent-sized battery and a compact high-speed gas turbine generator. It could be lighter than a BEV yet not suffer the range anxiety. It would double as an off-grid generator for your house.

On the other hand, it would suffer the same reliability issues of an EV, with the extra issues of a high-speed gas turbine, so not surprising that it doesn't exist yet :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Odd

Isn't that the BMW i7 "range extender" option? Basically a small gas powered electric generator you can have installed.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Odd

Or the Mazda MX-30. Wankel-engined generator in the boot.

[cyberdemon]

Re: Odd

> Isn't that the BMW i7 "range extender"

That's just a ~3kW 4-stroke petrol genset, similar to what you'd have for a building site, albeit integrated into the car. It takes up a lot of boot space and it's not powerful enough to run the car without the battery. A gas turbine generator could be 10 times as powerful in the same or smaller package, so it would make for a true series-hybrid powertrain

[Piro]

Re: Odd

They did this, the Volt/Ampera.

The second gen was excellent, but it never came to Europe, and because it wasn't a pure BEV, it didn't get that much attention

[Zolko]

Re: Odd

I rather think it's called Abrams M1

[Captain_Cretin]

Re: Odd

1st gen Ampera came to Europe; it didnt gain much traction as it was a heavily compromised design; cramped interior, with only 4 seats, no roof rack or towing allowed; and the petrol engine was pretty crude.

Also, the prices were far too high.

[AdamWill]

Re: Odd

There's a good theory on this in another story I read on it: this isn't really a story about powertrain technology, it's a story about car manufacturers.

If you look at the overall reliability chart by manufacturer, there are some strong correlations. The most reliable manufacturers do not, yet, make a lot of EVs or even PHEVs. But they *do* make a lot of mild hybrids.

OTOH, the manufacturers that *do* make a lot of EVs and PHEVs seems to be the ones that just just generally suck at making reliable cars.

Or to put it another way: when Toyota et. al. start making more EVs and PHEVs, these results are likely to change.

[Zolko]

Re: Odd

Interestingly, hybrid vehicles had 26 percent fewer problems than conventional vehicles

easy explanation : because they're made by Japanese manufacturers (Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi), and they've been optimised for such hybrid use since 20 years.

Plug-in hybrids on the contrary combine the problems of BOTH platforms, with high power petrol engines (because these beasts are heavy) and new technology pushed to the extremes. Since they're so heavy they put more stress on all mechanical elements like brakes and clutches and dampers, since they are full of comfort gadgets these inevitably fail at some time, and since they're quite new and built in small numbers the manufacturers didn't have time to sort out all the issues. Plug-in hybrid drivers are the equivalent of beta-testers for Windows Vista.

I feel no pity for them out of my 20 year old, 300 000km Peugeot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Odd

Not brakes, regenerative braking handles most of that. After 15,000 miles my brake pads are still only 20% worn.

It's great, 250+ BHP, clean and cheap local motoring, but 500+ mile range with 5-minute fill up when required. Fuel consumption is no worse than my previous 170 BHP 2L diesel, despite the extra weight.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Odd

Theres something serious wrong that you need to drive 500+ miles ?

Maybe its me, but that basically limits the number of times you can actually goto a nice place, because well 500+ miles means you cant do that every weekend...

But hey if you think driving 1000 miles is great, i feel sorry that you prison yourself like that.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Odd

He said 500+ miles range. He never said he drives that far in a single trip. He may do, but he didn't say that. You assumed it.

[jake]

Re: Odd

Some of us do.

I routinely do the 680 mile round trip between Sonoma and Solvang in a day.

The trip to the Nevada property plus a side trip (or two) is usually just a tick over 500 miles, and I do that pretty much weekly.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Odd

What a loser, so you waste 12 hours driving in a day which basically leaves zero heroes to actually do anything.

You jsut admitted to driving 500 miles, tht means every week you are wasting the equivalent to a whole day sitting a car...

Congratulations on your prize.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Odd

Why would you need 500+ range if it wasnt for a single trip ?

If it was for multiple trips over multiple days then the 500 number wouldnt be needed becaus eyou could recharge overnight.

[Casca]

Re: Odd

Yea, he is a troll.

[jake]

Re: Odd

"Theres something serious wrong that you need to drive 500+ miles ?"

Nothing wrong with getting out and exploring. It's what humans have been doing for tens of thousands of years. It's embedded in our very genetics to go find out what's over that next hill.

"Maybe its me, but that basically limits the number of times you can actually goto a nice place, because well 500+ miles means you cant do that every weekend..."

If you've found a "nice spot" to stagnate in, enjoy! Personally, I much prefer going over that next hill.

"But hey if you think driving 1000 miles is great, i feel sorry that you prison yourself like that."

Let me get this straight ... I'm in prison because I like getting out and about and seeing new places, but you are free because you sit in one place and don't go anywhere? Ohhh-kayyyyy ...

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Odd

cow: "Theres something serious wrong that you need to drive 500+ miles ?"

jake: Nothing wrong with getting out and exploring.

cow: Sitting in a car for 10 hours to drive 500+ miles is not exploring.

jake:

It's what humans have been doing for tens of thousands of years. It's embedded in our very genetics to go find out what's over that next hill.

cow:

BULLSHIT.

Sitting a car for 10 hours is not the same as walking or riding a horse or a bicycle.

One takes effort and is good for your health, sitting in a car or train or plane is nothing more a prison.

jake: Let me get this straight ... I'm in prison because I like getting out and about and seeing new places, but you are free because you sit in one place and don't go anywhere? Ohhh-kayyyyy ...

cow: Again you cant read.

You are a in a prison when you sit in a car. Freedom is being outside a box.

Weekend s are only so long, if you drive 5-10 hours each way you just lost MORE than half your weekend. A far smarter option would be to drive less or not at all, or live in a place you like so again you dont have to travel.

But its obvious you arent smart enough to have the skills to make this possible because you couldnt even judge that sitting in a car is dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Odd

Since they're so heavy they put more stress on all mechanical elements like brakes and clutches and dampers,

Except this is not actually true.

Take a Mitsubish Outlander.

PHEV gross weight 2370 kerb weight 1880

Petrol gross weight 2355 , 1690

Spec'd gross (i.e design) weight is the same,

Kerb weight is only 10% different.

This does not make the brakes, clutches and dampers suddenly fail.

Quite the opposite - after 170k, my Outlander PHEV has original brake pads - like most electric-ish vehicles. Oh, and no clutch. The engine is only up to about 40,000km.

It is indeed more complicated, and has batteries which are wearing out (as I expected). But apart from the battery, it has significantly less wear and tear than a petrol one.

The only issue, is that the cells in the battery would be trivial to replace, but no one can buy them (and I would buy a new set tomorrow if I could get them). This is a consumer protection law thing to be sorted out.

[Zolko]

Re: Odd

Reading helps: I explicitly mentioned Mitsubishi as "good" hybrid cars, and you write that indeed your Mitsubishi hybrid car is "good", but somehow what I say is not true ?

[Alf Garnett]

In a free ecomony, the debate over EVs vs fuel burning cars will settle itself. Some types of driving are better suited to EVs. For example; someone who lives close enough to their work that they can drive to work and home on one charge. They have all night to charge the car at home before going to work the next day. Cars that burn fuel are better suited for longer trips or when you need a car before the EV can charge. An example is the driver who just got home in his EV. He plugged in the EV then he gets a call that his mom, grandma or some other family member 150 or more miles away is in hospital and he needs to get there asap. He gets in his car that burn diesel of petrol, goes to the filling station, fills up and is on his way. If he had to rely on the EV, he might be stuck at home for hours before he could go. Maybe he's lucky enough to live near one of those fast charging places. He drives the EV there, but there are several cars in the queue ahead of him. Assuming each one needs 45 minutes to an hour to charge, he still could be stuck there waiting for hours. The people who like EVs, have a use for them and can afford them will buy them. Like any early adopters, they'll have to deal with problems that come with a new technology. As manufacturers get better at making EVs and the technology gets better, they'll appeal to more and more people. As more people buy them, more people will invest in charging stations. Also more companies that don't build better cars will leave the EV market as other makers do improve the quality of their EVs.

One problem with EVs that won't end soon will be getting the electricity to charge them. In some places there have been rolling blackouts whent the weather turns exceptionally hot or cold. It's not going to helpl the flexibility of the power grid if people keep suing to stop the construction of new power stations. All that electricity has to come from somewhere.

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally don't see why the short EV trip concept is worth the cost of buying one outside of the US.

It might be true in a US context where public transport and cycling networks are poor. But in Europe/Australia/high income asian countries what is the point?

Almost everywhere that is practical to drive an EV I can get to via public transport, bicycle or ebicycle/escooter. So why would I buy one? My carbon footprint during transit is already 0 and all I did was was buy a 200 euro folding bike and get it serviced for $30 euros a year.

[CowHorseFrog]

What high income asian countries ?

Are you referring to the ones that have more slaves than citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

My carbon footprint during transit is already 0

Not even one fart? Come on, we're all friends here, you can admit it.

[Mike 137]

"My carbon footprint during transit is already 0"

You mean you don't even breath out?

[IamStillIan]

If you're lucky enough to live somewhere that's possible and be able to make it work for you, then that's definately the greener option.

Unfortunately not everywhere has invested in infrastructure to make that possible, and not everyone is physically capable of the more active options.

I agree, this should be the prefered model, and demand reduction (i.e. reducing needless travel) is essential regardless, but it's never going to provide 100% coverage, so some EV's along side it makes sense.

[CowHorseFrog]

Sorry..

While people like yourself pretend that EVs are green, basically nobody is going to try the truely green option of remote work and other less travel options.

Just look how many morons already commute for hours a day and cant even see what a monumental waste of their life it is. Not a brain cell in their heads.

[Doctor Syntax]

"My carbon footprint during transit is already 0 and all I did was was buy a 200 euro folding bike and get it serviced for $30 euros a year."

Let me guess. You're young, fit, have a good enough sense of balance to be able to ride a bike*, live somewhere reasonably flat, don't have a long commute (or if you commute by public transport live and work close to the same route) and don't have any obligations for transporting other people.

* Not everybody has.

[SCP]

It might be true in a US context where public transport and cycling networks are poor. But in Europe/Australia/high income asian countries what is the point?

ROFLMAO!

Public transport might be fine where you live, but that is far from the case in a great many other places. Also cycling is not really a good option when you need to navigate unlit roads alongside heavy traffic (no separate cycle lane). Poor weather and needing to carry a shopping load add to the impracticalities of cycling in many circumstances - did it in my youth (when traffic was less intense), but not something I would want now.

However, in the case of two car families [boo hiss] having one ICE and one EV might be a way of optimizing utility and availability of personal transport.

[John Brown (no body)]

"However, in the case of two car families [boo hiss] having one ICE and one EV might be a way of optimizing utility and availability of personal transport."

Especially if you live in a part of the UK that has just come out of an "all out" bus drivers strike, which took the majority of buses off the road over a large densely populated area. The bus companies not on strike and were still running, found their buses full during rush hour and suffered major delays due to all the extra traffic on the roads.

Add to that the bus networks themselves. Despite many jobs and shopping facilities now being "out of town", the network is strongly based on the hub/spoke model where all the buses head in to the city centres, few link the suburbs with the out of town locations. And being privately operation by profit driven companies, they only want to run the "busy" routes and will only run other routes if the local council pays them a subsidy.

It's been a major story in the local news for weeks, not just because they actually got a big long running story, but because of the human interest angle where many, many people in outlying towns and villages without a car have been more or less completely cut off without the help of friends, family, neighbours or expensive taxis.

[CowHorseFrog]

SCP: Public transport might be fine where you live, but that is far from the case in a great many other places. Also cycling is not really a good option when you need to navigate unlit roads alongside heavy traffic (no separate cycle lane).

cow: so move to a nice place. The price is often lower and your health will improve.

SCP: Poor weather and needing to carry a shopping load add to the impracticalities of cycling in many circumstances - did it in my youth (when traffic was less intense), but not something I would want now.

cow: I live in a small town in AU and we get home deliveries from the big supermarkets, im sorry i dont believe your fake crap, you arent trying.

SCP: However, in the case of two car families [boo hiss] having one ICE and one EV might be a way of optimizing utility and availability of personal transport.

cow: Brilliant, so you waste your life in cars, because you made bad decisions and your family and friends are far far away...or maybe you make genius moves like going too a gym hours way, instead of just walking the dog or riding a bike

[CowHorseFrog]

AC: My carbon footprint during transit is already 0 and all I did was was buy a 200 euro folding bike and get it serviced for $30 euros a year.

cow: BULLSHIT

Even trains and buses run on zero carbon, roads and all the supporting infrastructure costs over 10% of all carbon. Setting concrete releases a lot of carbon and i have only started.

I live in Australia and i make it a personal statement to refuse to come into any office. Thats far closer to carbon zero than your claims.

[CowHorseFrog]

The free economy doesnt alwas make the correct decisions.

Just ask the slaves of the ancient world what the economy selected.

[Doctor Syntax]

That wasn't a free economy.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

I think CowHorseFrog's point was that abolition was perceived by slave holders as a restriction on trade.

The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of society, which is in turn a subsidiary of the environment.

[CowHorseFrog]

Bene: I think CowHorseFrog's point was that abolition was perceived by slave holders as a restriction on trade.

cow: No my point is for thousands of years in many many cultures, basically none eliminated slavery.

Claiming that free economy makes the right choice is stupid and this is a monumental exmaple of it being a failure

[CowHorseFrog]

For most of human history a large portion of humans were slaves, its clear that the free economy didnt serve the majority. YOu have been brainwashed by american culture of leader worship which of course serves their purpose, that they earned their position on merit.

[CowHorseFrog]

In other words you are talking bullshit, because its only a free economy if and more ifs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Steady on now Ted

A negative story about EVs?

This is not consistent with the media’s penchant for slavishly reporting on the glowing electric revolution and coming utopia!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Steady on now Ted

Nah - there's been a huge uptick in media stories about how EV cars aren't ready.

There must be a vote in congress soon, or something.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I’m not sure what slavery has to do with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I blame the Romans.

What did the Romans ever do for us?

[jake]

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"

Preserved the important bits of the ancient Greeks.

[Benegesserict Cumbersomberbatch]

Like the Antikythera Mechanism - a 2000-year old computer.

[Casca]

I would not say they preserved it when it sank

[Anonymous Coward]

10-20% of new car sales are EV

Depending on where you live, the early adopters are out in force already. We don't really need to rely on rumour and speculation anymore. Just ask your friend who has already bought an EV.

Heck - the last time my parents went on holiday, they rented an EV to see what it was like.

[Lon24]

Redmond Law

Hey - this is an IT forum and are we forgetting Microsoft? Version 1 of any product is best regarded as an alpha release, version 2 is a beta and version 3 is actually usable.

Most EVs available have yet to get to version 3 when the most obvious bugs have been fixed. EVs are best regarded as 4 wheel computers. I rest my Excel :-)

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Redmond Law

Yes, but once you get past version 3 everything successive version is a public beta for version + 1 which will be wonderful.

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me old fashioned

But there’s no way I’m parking an EV under my houses roof-line (garage).

I’m surprised the insurance industry hasn’t gone nuclear on policy prices.

[Adair]

Re: Call me old fashioned

You do realise that statistically your ICE car (assuming you have one) is far more likely to incinerate your house?

[Piro]

Re: Call me old fashioned

Not agreeing or disagreeing, I'd just like a link to the data. Thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Call me old fashioned

Son, it’s not about what burns, it’s about how they burn.

Thermal runaway is in a league of its own.

[Tessier-Ashpool]

Re: Call me old fashioned

All cars burn in a similar manner once they are alight. What most people don’t realise is that the bulk of the heat energy produced in a vehicle fire does not come from the fuel or battery. Rather, it is the burning plastic, rubber and other combustibles in the car that supply most of the energy in the fire.

https://lashfire.eu/media/2022/09/2022-08_Facts_and_Myths.pdf

There are approximately 300 petrol and diesel fires in the UK every day. It’s a really common thing, too common for the MSM to report on.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Call me old fashioned

Tessier:

How many of those 300 ICE fires take out an entire carpark and roast 1500 cars ?

EV fires in a confirned place are unspottable, fire services basically cannot stop them, and secondly EV batteries burn significantly hotter, which is why the the LUton airport melted and collapsed.

[Adair]

Re: Call me old fashioned

'How many of those 300 ICE fires take out an entire carpark and roast 1500 cars ?'

Except that was a Range Rover (or similar ICE vehicle), which does rather spoil the FUD over EVs being catastrophically more dangerous than ICE vehicles. As already stated, your cuddly ICE car is far more likely to incinerate your home than the nasty EV.

[CowHorseFrog]

Re: Call me old fashioned

Haha, how many ICE cars have taken out 1500 cars in a fire ?

It wont be long when another EV takes out a shopping center and they will be banned from underground car parks, because well ...

[Adair]

Re: Call me old fashioned

O dear, I do hope that was sarcasm, but I suspect not. The 1500 vehicle carpark cremation was started in an ICE vehicle. Perish the thought that 'the truth' might get a look in, in favour of prejudice, misinformation, and lies.

[Joe Dietz]

As an EV fan... still rings true

I've had I think 6 EVs now:

- 1 Chevy Spark EV died due to a minor crash that caused the insurance to total it due to the cost of electronics.

- 1 Chevy Bolt EV was sold on the used market at a loss - it was basically a Chevy malibu and had tons of software glitches and piss poor design possibly due to the retro fit.

- 1 Tesla Model X died 30 minutes after delivery upon arriving home. Some sort of central computer had stopped working. This was a COVID build, so Elon himself may have fitted the QA failed part from the scrap bin in it himself. Twas returned to Tesla.

- 1 Chevy Spark EV died after 2 years due to the charge controller failing. GM was unable to find a replacement board after 9 months of it sitting at the dealer... I got a buy out check from them.

... Kia rental EV was 'fine'.. but it was a rental so who knows what happened after I returned it 9 months of me driving it around....

- current Nissan Leaf - still going strong. Very boring car... but I've high hopes of it having a natural end as a result.

The Chevy Spark EV is still my favorite... But I suspect the fundamental problem is that people expect more from EVs due to the price, so the normal build quality issues stand out more and when it does go wrong, its very wrong. What you might accept in a $25k malibu, you are going to be pissed about in a $37k bolt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: As an EV fan... still rings true

Four American EVs with problems, and two asian EVs with no problems. I wonder what inference we should draw from that?

(As it happens I have both a Kia EV and Nissan Leaf. And I too have had no problems).

[The answer is 42]

What about the hard of hearing?

One more problem with EVs- they are too quiet. The hard of hearing don’t look before leaping, so all EVs must make a noise. Buyers choice- Formula 1 on the start line. Concorde on full reheat. Any nitro dragster. To keep the vehicle quiet, try the Lotus trick that listened to the sound and out-putted the same signal but inverted. I don’t think it got into any road cars.

[Spanners]

Re: What about the hard of hearing?

One of the things that is causing me to keenly look forward to the demise of the internal combustion engine is the ones that are "specially modified" to sound like a tractor doing 70mph!

I'm not far from a main road and these things sound ghastly and then when they slow down they gough, pop and splutter because they are so badly tuned

There is a Tesla living near me. They do make a little noise. It wouldn't be hard to turn that up a little. Someone could make a law about it. The law could get them to be quieter in the evenings and at night. That is not something that the chavmobiles do,

[jake]

Re: What about the hard of hearing?

"I don’t think it got into any road cars."

That's essentially how a muffler works.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What about the hard of hearing?

We could let Darwin sort them out and soon pedestrians will learn to look both ways when crossing a street.

Too much noise in our cities, we must do something to cut down on noise pollution but God forbid we let silent cars on our roads.

[Spanners]

Tesla Build

Over the years, I have not developed a good impression of US engineering build quality. Tesla has merely confirmed this.

Do we know if the ones made in China are better? I expect that when they start churning them out in Germany, they certainly will be!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tesla Build

I was watching some YouTube videos about this. Just look up "tofu dreg EV".

In China, apparently there are fields FULL of EVs just sat there. Lots of stories about them just catching fire, and serious build quality issues. However, given the secretive nature over there, who knows what the truth actually is....

[Tessier-Ashpool]

Re: Tesla Build

fullfact is a useful place to find the truth.

https://fullfact.org/online/electric-vehicles-from-failed-business/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tesla Build

https://thecritic.co.uk/how-neutral-is-full-fact/

The Left Wing "truth".

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: Tesla Build

You're criticising an article from a fact-checking website not because it's not true (the article is 100% correct) but because you don't like the people that wrote it?

And then you link to an article which criticises the same website because "perhaps none of this would matter if their day-to-day staff also included former Telegraph or Mail journalists" - the Mail, an organ that is synonymous in the UK with simply making shit up.

Brother, you need to take a long hard look at yourself. You don't get to choose your own facts, no matter how much you dislike the people that find them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tesla Build

Yes, correct. I don't "like the people" because they don't seem to be making enough effort to be balanced. It seems that all these so-called "fact checker" sites are left wing biased, which is not surprising considering that around 95% of silicon valley are left / liberal leaning. And they receive a lot of their funding from Google.

I would trust Twitter's community notes more than this, which actually seems to put useful context on things on the few times I've looked.

But really I just object to the whole concept of fact checking... UNLESS they go to great efforts to make sure they are staffed by a diverse mixture of people across the political spectrum, and not simply have a token tame tory donor somewhere on the board. And I haven't found one which does that yet, so I feel they are worse than useless.

Oh, and the statement "fullfact is a useful place to find the truth.". Well, it's clearly not because of the reasons mentioned above. I really wish there was a single place where I could find "the truth", as it would make my life so much easier.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: Tesla Build

"But really I just object to the whole concept of fact checking." - yes, I can see that.

A fact is a fact is a fact, and even if it were unearthed by Adolf Hitler, provided it's shorn of opinion and objectively true (a criteria no-one gets to weaken) I'll accept it, regardless of my distaste for the messenger. I'm genuinely bemused that you can't - it's just wilful ignorance. But I suppose if facts have a liberal bias, the result is that some people are simply going to reject reality.

[Zolko]

Re: Tesla Build

A fact is a fact is a fact

no, it wasn't during the covid idiocy and especially with the "vaccine" hold-up : that these "vaccines" weren't any vaccines in the medical sense, that they didn't protect from being ill, that they didn't protect from transmission, that they weren't needed at all for most of the population, that they had dangerous side-effects ... all these facts – which are now being confirmed, but at that time we were accused of being flat-earthers – didn't matter to the media.

So no, facts are not facts.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Tesla Build

"which are now being confirmed, but at that time we were accused of being flat-earthers"

No they're not and yes you are.

[Adair]

Re: Tesla Build

O boy, an objective 'fact' is true regardless of whether you or I believe it, and regardless of who communicates it, e.g. the planets of this solar system orbit the 'Sun'.

Likewise, a vaccine that demonstrably significantly reduces the percentage of a national population from suffering life ending symptoms, without significantly raising the probability of serious side-effects, is one worth receiving—if only for the sake of the well being of the population at large, regardless of whether you or I happen to think it's a 'good idea' or a 'conspiracy confected by the capitalist alien lizard overlords'. Unless of course we are self-regarding/self-pitying prats who don't give a shit about anyone else's well being, so long as we are free to spout our nonsense without consequence to ourselves.

[Casca]

Re: Tesla Build

Good little antivaccer. Now crawl back into your hole

[jake]

Re: Tesla Build

What is sadder?

Being a congenitally lying orange-arsed small handed vulgarian?

Being a supporting act for the congenitally lying small-handed vulgarian?

Being an anonymous coward, happily slurping up the lies of the small handed vulgarian's supporting acts, and then parroting them?

_{Note: There is more than one kind of lie, some more heinous than others.}