back to article Former IBM Canada worker wins six-figure payout for wrongful dismissal

IBM Canada has lost its bid to challenge a judgment that it wrongfully dismissed a former employee. On Monday, the Court of Appeals of Ontario dismissed IBM's appeal, which sought to reverse a lower court's decision that the company had failed to provide adequate notice when it dismissed veteran employee Greg Milwid. As a …

  1. Ace2 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    38 years and they didn’t even say GOODBYE or THANK YOU?

    Sounds like a place I want to spend my career - where can I apply?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      India; where the pay is low and need for A/C high.

      Some IBM facilities near me still exist, mostly to hold hardware that needs to be in the country of use to improve latency. They are largely devoid of personnel - unlike 5-10 years ago when they were hives of activity.

      Apart from a few server racks, the other use for them is meeting / marketing facilities for country in question.

    2. Blank Reg

      And they really tried to screw him on the severence. In ontario you typically get 2-4 weeks per year of service for IT roles, and given his title and age it would be at the higher end if the range. The one time I was let go I got 14 months severence after 17 years, and I was almost 20 years younger than he was when they fired him.

    3. Sam not the Viking Silver badge

      Paying Off

      The first time I was made redundant, after 12 years of service, the severance amounted to statutory minimum: a week's pay per year of service, capped at £220/week for not more than 12 weeks. One of my colleagues, who had over 40 years mostly in Sales received the same. He had brought in millions of pounds of orders from all over the world. Indeed, the week before the news was announced we were in Germany finalising a major order (which was subsequently rescinded). This was also the year after the Directors imposed a 'pension holiday' for contributions to the employee's pension fund but managed to put £1 million into each of their personal pension pots.

      As we stood in the courtyard for the last time he said sadly: "I thought someone from management might say something before I left." Of course they stayed away under their stones.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Paying Off

        The legal minimum in Canada is a week/year of service.

        However - the courts order a "reasonable amount", which includes how senior you are, how specialised your skills, how difficult to get another job locally, etc etc

        So if you are offered 1 week, you get a lawyer to write a letter saying 'see you in court' and wait for their next offer

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Behind every mean termination

    Lurks a nasty HR Gruppenfuhrer.

    1. Erix

      Re: Behind every mean termination

      Some 20 years ago, when yet another IBM software tender failed and the project team was to get the sack, they flew in a special guy from the states to assist with the dismissals. This was a professional Terminator specializing in "smooth transitions" for smaller local offices without an HR department trained in the arts of head chopping. Needless to say that not a head was spared with only the statutory minimums all around. Some say they even saw a black cape and a flash of a scythe as he mounted his white horse and flew off to the next appointment.

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: Behind every mean termination

        they flew in a special guy from the states

        Many years ago (post y2k but only just) I was made redundant at a well-known RTOS manufacturer. I'd known it was possible and, when I saw my Paris-based manager in the HR office as I parked my bike I suspected that I was gone.. (he'd always said that he'd always turn up in person if he made someone redundant - I learnt a lot from him about being a good manager.)

        Our usual (very good) HR lady was on annual leave at the time so they bought over one of the German HR staff who processed us with the legal minimums.

        Our HR lady came back and blew a fuse - our contracts, unlike Germany, had specified much more generous redundancy terms. Our severance pay got more than trebled and our stock grants likewise. I suspect she used the situation to get us more than our contracts specified.

        One of the few *really* good HR people I have ever worked with. Actually cared about the staff rather than just trying to make sure that they didn't cause the company any discomfort.

        I had a nice, long hot summer of doing very little other than wandering around our local dogs with our then new GSD/Rottie pup.

        1. druck Silver badge

          Re: Behind every mean termination

          I bet she was out the door shortly after you though.

    2. bregister

      Re: Behind every mean termination

      so lets say you're shutting down a whole organisation, who gives HR the chop?

      Auto-da-chop?

      1. Gordon 10 Silver badge

        Re: Behind every mean termination

        Years back a company I worked for did this. Shut down the whole office. HR had to sack everybody whilst also sacking themselves about a week later.

        TBF to them they did a really good job of being human about it. About the only time I had respect for them.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Behind every mean termination

        The first thing to know about any HR business function is that it exists to serve the business.

        Staff are never the first concern, no matter what is said.

  3. EricB123 Silver badge

    Oh, Now I Get It

    "IBM has deep pockets and can drag a case out to its ultimate end, regardless of cost or merit"

    Ah, the sounds of a true democracy.

    1. nematoad Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Oh, Now I Get It

      Ah, the sounds of a true democracy.

      No, Capitalism.

  4. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    This guy sounds incredibly professional. I'm really not sure that I would be able to keep the emotion out of it if it was me...

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Don't get mad, get even.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        More like don't get mad, get paid!

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          That's how you get even.

      2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Unfortunately, deciding what feelings to have is not your option. To paraphrase Richard Ayoade, that's why they're called "feelings". And not, say, "doings".

  5. Tubz Silver badge

    Years back was offered a job by IBM, wages and T&Cs much better but on visiting what would be my place of work, I could feel a disturbance in the force and my inner voice saying, run away. So glad I stayed with ICL (Fujitsu), yeh I know better the devil you know, at least they acknowledged by length of service.

    1. blackcat Silver badge

      It is sad to see how far IBM has fallen. My old man worked there for many years and I even did some summer work for them. Visting the old place in the early 2000s was such a shock as it was so different. I'd always wanted to follow in his footsteps and work for IBM but I am very glad I didn't. So many things pioneered by big blue over the decades and now they seem to be consultants pushing X as a service.

      My old man was also lucky enough to get the magic IBM early retirement package.

      1. Robert 22

        I recall being interviewed by IBM when I graduated in the late 80s. The interviewer made a big deal about how they had never ever laid anybody off. How times have changed.

        1. damienblackburn

          Gerstner really changed that.

          I worked for IBM for a few years about a decade and a half ago. It was just a sweatshop. Doing almost the same thing I do now for a literal fourth the pay.

          They constantly cut US staff and send the positions over to India. Cutting staff became a regular cost-saving mechanism. I saw managed services shrink and customers leave them because the service became so bad. One of the notables was Disney leaving them.

        2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Yeah, I left in 1991, turning down an offer to continue. That's not a decision I regret in hindsight. I feel sorry for my friends there who stayed.

        3. ZX8301

          IBM UK boss Sir Edwin Nixon was granted an honorary degree at my graduation in 1985, pontificating about ‘the growth of the spatial marketplace’. I happened to be sitting next to a new grad with a first in Comp Sci, who’d just applied for a job at IBM and been turned down, saying “they said they’re not hiring anyone from here because they took too many last year.” Go figure.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    lower than a maggots scrotum

    Heard of a case recently where a long serving and absolutely brilliant IBM'er was targeted and their status downgraded and salary dropped for no apparent reason. I know them personally and was so shocked and saddened to hear this. They were extremely dedicated so it must have been such a kick in the teeth. Really makes me wonder what is going on, but I suppose it's about $$$ and power. The customers need to start making a fuss about it to wake the bastards up.

    1. blackcat Silver badge

      Re: lower than a maggots scrotum

      The sorts of customers big blue has these days are likely the ones that would find it INCREDIBLY hard, if not impossible to move elsewhere.

      So much for 'no one ever got fired for buying IBM'.

      1. disgruntled yank Silver badge

        Re: lower than a maggots scrotum

        @blackcat

        Well, but if most of IBM's revenue these days comes from services? IBM is doing its best to increase the number of personnel out there who are a) trained by IBM and b) not employed by IBM.

        1. blackcat Silver badge

          Re: lower than a maggots scrotum

          LOL True!

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: lower than a maggots scrotum

          Trained by IBM and no longer employed by IBM, but would they recommend IBM to their new employer? ;-)

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ah Stock options…

    Not only jam tomorrow but it’s somebody else’s jam and the employer retains the option to swoop in, scrape it back off your toast and put it back in the jar[1] at any time up to the point they actually vest…

    They’ve got their place, but I’m very cynical about them as part of a regular remuneration package…

    AC because reasons…

    [1] OK, they didn’t get away with it in this case, but it can and does happen…

    1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: Ah Stock options…

      Agreed. I've always looked at mine as a potential windfall that might well not pay off. Nice if it does, but don't plan on it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ah Stock options…

        [The same anonymous coward continues]

        Quite. The first tranche of options I got back in my employers half-a-dozen guys in a serviced office days lapses next month, but since multiple rounds of financing over the last 10 years have diluted them to the point of being valueless that’s kind of a moot point.

        On the one hand the lights have stayed on, the pay cheques have kept coming, and I’ve seen the company grow into a grown-up, viable business with actual customers, some of them very big names indeed.

        On the other hand it’s not much of a reward for the hard work, long nights, and periods of uncertainty.

        We’ve now got a shiny new LTIP (long term incentive program) which apparently is structured in a way which should work better, but we’re all starting on an even footing with no recognition for those of us who’ve been here more or less since the beginning and, as things currently stand, we cease to be eligible when we leave the company for *any* reason, meaning that unless something (IPO, being bought out by another company, that sort of thing…) happens to trigger a payout in the couple of years I’ve got left before retirement it’ll be a washout for me…

  8. TVU Silver badge

    Former IBM Canada worker wins six-figure payout for wrongful dismissal

    Ha Ha! as Nelson Muntz would say. IBM has just found out that Dinobabies can bite back very hard indeed.

    Seriously though, Greg Milwid gets a 10/10 from me for taking on IBM over their age discriminatory practices and, best of all, he won!

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Former IBM Canada worker wins six-figure payout for wrongful dismissal

      Agreed, except, of course, the article specifically quotes that they didn't go for the age discrimination as that's much harder to prove. He won on technicalities over his contracted "lay off" terms and the terms they actually implemented along with Canadian "best practices" and "tradition" where his age and length of service was considered.

  9. Randy Hudson

    "he emigrated to Canada"

    This should be "immigrate". You emigrate FROM somewhere.

    1. JoeCool Silver badge

      how about ...

      he emigrated, to Canada.

    2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: "he emigrated to Canada"

      That doesn't seem right. I am assured by many of my fellow citizens that emigrants are plucky, cosmopolitan world travelers who are generously spreading their talents, while immigrants are horrible monsters who must be separated from their children and locked up in concentration camps until we can find some other country, or an island off Massachusetts, to dump them in.

      1. collinsl Silver badge

        Re: "he emigrated to Canada"

        > or an island off Massachusetts

        The UK has a name you know!

  10. aerogems Silver badge

    I mean...

    How many cases are there where there's pretty damn compelling evidence for IBM's default being to fire people based on age? We have literal comments from top executives laying out that very strategy. So, I think at this point we can safely assume age was a factor unless proven otherwise.

    That said, good for this guy. I hope he enjoys his retirement in the frozen tundra that is Canada. Or maybe he'll move back to his native South Africa. Whatever he decides, I wish him a happy remainder of his life.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like