He's right.
Shame on the companies that have pulled out, especially the likes of Stripe who should know better.
Web Summit CEO's comments on Israeli conflict 'war crimes' sparks boycott
Meta and Stripe have joined Google, Intel, and Siemens in a growing boycott of next month's Web Summit in Lisbon after the event's chief executive compared Israel's actions in response to attacks by Hamas as "war crimes." The comments, made by Web Summit CEO Paddy Cosgrave earlier this week on social media, criticized the …
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Monday 23rd October 2023 06:21 GMT FeepingCreature
Freedom = Freedom from consequences
Free speech has of course always meant freedom from certain consequences. The term "freedom" is worthless if it doesn't include consequences - by that metric, China and Russia have free speech. You just have to deal with the consequences, which may include torture and murder.
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Friday 20th October 2023 21:57 GMT Tron
There should be no free pass for killing civilians. Not for anyone.
'War crimes are war crimes even when committed by allies'. 100% agreement.
Anybody who kills civilians, directly or by denying them food, water or medical aid, deserves to be condemned and charged with crimes against humanity. It is not an acceptable response.
An acceptable response to the murder of your civilians is to target those responsible and take only them out. Even if it is difficult, costs money and takes time. Being angry is not an excuse.
The tech companies are running scared of governments and politicians have no ethics at all.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 09:08 GMT amanfromMars 1
Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1
Anybody who kills civilians, directly or by denying them food, water or medical aid, deserves to be condemned and charged with crimes against humanity. It is not an acceptable response.
An acceptable response to the murder of your civilians is to target those responsible and take only them out. Even if it is difficult, costs money and takes time. Being angry is not an excuse. ..... Tron
The nationalised offer of unconditional moral support and additional foreign military allied aid to regimes committing war crimes surely has those national leaderships and Prime Ministers and Secretaries of State for Defence etc., responsible for the committing of prime primed foreign allied assets, actively complicit in the crime and therefore legitimate accurate targets for appropriate attention/sanction/prosecution/persecution/disdain ‽ .
Surely such persons of interest cannot be imagining themselves to be unworthy and immune from punitive repercussions whenever they be such obvious cheerleaders/rabble rousers/quislings?
Whenever things are complex to solve, such a keeping of things simple is surely a viable and suitably unpleasant and discouraging response to troublemakers, both enthusiastic and otherwise.
Methinks though differently, Tron, regarding the first half of .....
The tech companies are running scared of governments and politicians have no ethics at all.
....... with the true ACTive state of present and future affairs being governments and politicians running scared and being terrified of and petrified by the unknown possibilities freely available to/from absolutely fabulous tech wielding companies.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 17:20 GMT Dacarlo
Re: Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1
UK Gov. PLC is/has flogged hundreds of millions of £££ of arms to Israel. This goes a long way to explain why they're so big on supporting the committing of said heinous acts.
https://caat.org.uk/news/statement-on-uk-arms-exports-to-israel/
Money talks.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 12:05 GMT Jedit
"Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"
Were all war crimes. Especially the second nuke on Japan - for the first one at least there was the argument that they were trying to force Japan to surrender without an invasion of the Home Islands which would have had a far higher death toll on both sides than the mere loss of one city. The second one was used after Japan was already planning to surrender, purely to hurry them up and to show that America could destroy anyone they wanted.
As the first commenter on this article said: war crimes don't stop being war crimes just because the winner committed them. But only losers are prosecuted for them.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 20:01 GMT Michael Wojcik
Re: "Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"
The second one was used after Japan was already planning to surrender, purely to hurry them up and to show that America could destroy anyone they wanted.
This is false, as confirmed by Japanese military and diplomatic archival materials that were decrypted by the US during the war but only released to the public in the 1990s. See Frank's Downfall for a comprehensive discussion, with citations.
That does not necessarily justify the Nagasaki bombing, or the Hiroshima one for that matter; but the common complaint that "Japan was already preparing to surrender" is not supported by the preponderance of available evidence.
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Monday 30th October 2023 11:31 GMT Mooseman
"Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"
You could argue about the rights and wrongs of nuking Japan all day, although it's not a coincidence that Russia was eyeing up chunks of Japan and needed to be shown who was boss...
Dresden of course is a case of everyone still using the faked figures produced by Goebbels in 1945 - the Germans' own official figures were roughly 25000 killed, which while dreadful were no worse than any one of a dozen similar attacks at that time, but the propaganda multiplied if by a factor of 10, and that's the figure everyone still quotes.
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
They share the ideology, methodology and personnel as the people who perpetrated the Deir Yassin atrocity. [2]
Ezra Yachin, who was involved in the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre, tells troops 'these animals can no longer live', referring to Palestinians [1]
[1] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children
[2] https://www.deiryassin.org/
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
Vengeance for stealing the dream that Zionists could live in safety while occupying people.
The dehumanization of Palestinians and the softening up of the public to accept genocide and ethic cleansing is heartbreaking.
There is no going back now, the world saw a people define their own narrative, the world is seeing a government saying children deserve death because of their ethnicity, 4,000 unarmed Palestinian men, women and children have been slaughtered indiscriminately. 1,600 Palestinian children including babies are dead. Over 50 entire families have been wiped from the population register.
As the Zionist enemy declares 2 million people in Gaza, half of them children, to be "human animals," cuts off food and water to all of them and openly massacres them ... the whole rotten Western elite, endorses this savagery"
The last hospital they bombed: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
The one they are threatening: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-ehud-barak-warns-gaza-shifa-hospital-target
I hope that a end to the fighting is called, with all people being give equal rights in a democratic Free Palestine.
Sadly I think this is going to results in the Zionist State Terrorist group murdering so many people that other countries will get involved.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 08:23 GMT Dan 55
Looking forward to US big tech sector leaving Ireland
After all, it's exactly the same position that the Irish government has.
You've got to wonder how most politicians can keep up the cognitive dissonance, just compare and contrast their response to this with their response to Ukraine.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 11:48 GMT demon driver
While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
..., his position completely ignores the factual differences between both sides and thus trivialises Hamas' attacks and demonises Israel's defence. While Hamas wantonly and maliciously targets civilians, Israel targets Hamas facilities and hideouts and warns civilians in the area about the bombings. The death of every single person is terrible. However, to ask Israel not to bomb Hamas even though civilians in their vicinity have been warned is to ask Israel to stop defending itself.
So the reactions to Cosgrave's comments are perfectly in order. And it is bewildering how widespread such factually pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel opinions are, based entirely on *not* applying the same standards to both sides, whether out of malice or lack of information.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 12:16 GMT Dan 55
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
Congratulations, it seems you're the first who dared.
Perhaps neighbourhoods in Ireland should have been bombed in air strikes because of the IRA or people in the Basque Country because of ETA? With a two hour warning first as it's only fair.
And even that doesn't capture the how much of a war crime it is because Gaza is a confined area with nowhere for civilians to escape to.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 12:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
"Perhaps neighbourhoods in Ireland should have been bombed in air strikes because of the IRA or people in the Basque Country because of ETA? With a two hour warning first as it's only fair."
Both in Ireland and Spain, the terrorists were a small and fragmented rabble, setting off a few bombs and carrying out a few murders that in the bigger scheme of things amounted to nothing. Admittedly they kept at it over a long period of time, but at no point did they pose a major threat to Spain or the UK. So your logic doesn't hold up.
Hamas on the other hand are a small army, and carried out a mass attack on Israel, killed 1,300 people mostly civilians in two days, kidnapped a couple of hundred hostages, and have fired something of the order of 6,000 rockets into Israel and continue to do so. I've no love for Israel, but Hamas set out to provoke Israel, they succeeded, and now they have got a proportionate reaction.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 16:37 GMT martinusher
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
>because Gaza is a confined area with nowhere for civilians to escape to.
The correct term for this is "ghetto" but you'll find that open use of this term will get you into trouble. (BTW -- I'm in the US, I'm an insignificant person and I'm retired so I can say what I want without my career being threatened......)
(Incidentally, been in Europe recently and I was somewhat taken back by the level of censorship there. There wasn't even any attempt to disguise it.)
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Saturday 21st October 2023 18:55 GMT Dan 55
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
(Incidentally, been in Europe recently and I was somewhat taken back by the level of censorship there. There wasn't even any attempt to disguise it.)
I must congratulate you on your advanced knowledge of 30 different languages that meant you were able to understand the press to such a level that you were able to see where all the censorship was.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 07:17 GMT well meaning but ultimately self defeating
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
Correct term is not ghetto. It’s a standalone region with borders.
The reason there is a blockade is because they keep bringing in weapons to stack Israeli. Hamas are not like this because they are trapped in Gaza, they are trapped in Gaza because they are like this.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 11:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
《The correct term for this is "ghetto" 》
Oddly I was thinking of parallels with Warsaw which should get one canceled into oblivion.
As far as I am concerned the whole of the Levant, and middle east in general, is an utter obscenity with basically no redeeming features. How any of the parties involved can begin to imagine facing their creator on judgment day is totally beyond me.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 15:34 GMT amanfromMars 1
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
Oddly I was thinking of parallels with Warsaw which should get one canceled into oblivion. .... Anonymous Coward
When/If the parallels of the Warsaw ghetto with its historically well documented trials and tribulations, starvations and hardships and imprisonments are more valid than not, is Israel then to deny and not realise it is become an unwelcome and barbaric pariah fascist state ..... a Third Reich-like clone apparently intent, at great cost to everybody and the dogs of war on the planet, on expanding its empire and influence on power and energy whilst expropriating land and raw field and rare earth assets with catastrophic bloodlettings and organised chaos dispensing and exercising madness and mayhem?
What else would they see themselves as being extremely similar to as would make no difference to anyone with a titter of wit and load of pure common sense about them?
And those are the sorts of very awkward questions all the leaderships of Israel's presently supportive allies need to be asked and asking of themselves, methinks, lest they be easily able to be charged and prosecuted and persecuted as wilful co-conspirators in a joint criminal enterprise and war crimes venture.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 12:40 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
Israel targets Hamas facilities and hideouts and warns civilians in the area about the bombings
Nope. Israel announced it was switching to no-knock bombings and has been levelling city blocks in Gaza. Sure, there may have been Hamas soldiers or weapons in some of those buildings, but an awful lot of collateral damage as well.
Problem is one of hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. Only a few days prior, a cafe with allegedly 300 people sitting down to mourn a dead soldier was all over the news as a heinous 'war crime'. The building didn't look big enough to seat 300, there were almost certainly military personnel there, and we don't know for certain who caused the explosion. Then there was the hospital bombing. 500 claimed dead, which seems.. excessive for a small car park. We don't know who caused the explosion there either.
But there's also been smaller war crimes committed. There's been video of Israeli soldiers on a patrol boat shooting swimmers in the water after a Hamas boat was blown up, or executing Hamas soldiers that were surrendering. There was also video of Hamas soldiers executing some IDF personnel hiding under a desk. All are arguably war crimes, but the reactions differ. The danger is unless we consider all war crime equally, our enemies will just point at the hypocrisy and double standards. And yet we're supposed to be the force for good in the world, upholding the Western ideals of democracy, freedom and justice.
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Saturday 21st October 2023 18:44 GMT demon driver
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
As I said, Cosgrave is formally correct, I never claimed there were no war crimes committed by IDF, and I never claimed that they shouldn't be called out for what they are if there are any.
There is no such thing as truth in Palestine, though, not in whatever might count as peace and even less in war, and reports around the world are mostly biased. For example, official continental European news channels were eager to cite those hundreds dead in an allegedly Israeli hospital bombing, while it indeed seems excessive for a small car park, and evidence rather points to a terrorist rocket that failed and broke in two above that hospital. But you won't ever hear any Palestinian voice admitting that.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 12:03 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
There is no such thing as truth in Palestine
There's no such thing as truth in war, or politics. This is the problem.
...while it indeed seems excessive for a small car park, and evidence rather points to a terrorist rocket that failed and broke in two above that hospital. But you won't ever hear any Palestinian voice admitting that.
Or Ukraine, which is the danger. You assume it was a terrorist rocket that failed, broke in two and did the damage. There's some video of an erratic missile that exploded, possibly over the hospital. Most of the missiles fired from Gaza have both small propellant and payloads, so would those create the damage seen in the videos and photos? Or, did the missile explode in the air as a result of an intercept from an Iron Dome or Patriot interceptor? If so, the terrorist's missile may still have had a viable warhead, the interceptor wouldn't, but there'd still be debris from both missiles obeying gravity.
Israel knows this through experience, ie trying to define 'safe' intercept zones where failed intercepts minimise damage. In Ukraine though, every errant missile or debris from an intercept is reported as a 'war crime' rather than physics. It's also the same with reporting, ie an explosion near a market when Blinken visited Ukraine was a Russian war crime, even though it turned out the missile was Ukrainian. These things happen.
It's also whether the existing definitions of war crimes are fit for purpose. So there's two kind of conflicting requirements. Beligerents must minimise civilian casualties, and must not use human shields. But in a very densely populated place like Gaza, how do you avoid both? Should the laws of war be updated to clarify the kinds of armed conflicts we're seeing now, especially with the weapons being used? But by not applying those laws equally, we just risk perpetuating the violence. Hamas knew very well what Israel's reaction would be, and Israel has delivered. Hamas and extemists are now using images of the devastation to recruit. We condemn and sanction Russia when it bombs apartment buildings, we support and arm Israel when it does the same thing. Extremists use that apparent hypocrisy to recruit because the West doesn't care about Arabs.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 13:56 GMT M.V. Lipvig
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked. Same with Hamas/Israel, any war crime committed is a war crime committed by Hamas. Hamas can end this today by surrendering, and they could see improvement in their situation by accepting that Israel isn't going anywhere.
What prople seem to forget is Hamas, Palestinians and Muslims in general have publicly stated for years that Israel has no right to exist, and all Jews must be exterminated. They have performed/funded/cheered actions that work towards this goal. Israel has had to live with Palestinians setting off bombs and lobbing mortars for decades, to the point that 2-3 explosions in a day no longer makes the news outside local. Quite frankly, I'm surprised at the restraint they've shown to date, as by now I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 14:48 GMT amanfromMars 1
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'... @L.V.Lipvig
When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked. Same with Hamas/Israel, any war crime committed is a war crime committed by Hamas. Hamas can end this today by surrendering, and they could see improvement in their situation by accepting that Israel isn't going anywhere. ..... M.V.Lipvig
Are you really being serious and truly believe what you have said there, M.V. Lipvig, believing that there be others too who would find that perfectly acceptable and just and supportive of that...... well, surely no one could viably argue it is not a radical fundamentalist view ?
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 19:12 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked.
That's an interesting interpretation of the law, which you probably shouldn't try to rely on in court. The Laws of War don't really make any distinctions like that, only to try to impose a lawful code of conduct on beligerants, and protections for non-combatants.
What prople seem to forget is Hamas, Palestinians and Muslims in general have publicly stated for years that Israel has no right to exist, and all Jews must be exterminated.
Extremists are everywhere. One just talked about how there would be a 'New World Order'.. Which will have conspiracy theorists heads exploding. Oh, and people yelling that we must nuke Iran because Iran is evil. Despite having a modest population of Jews who live there quite happily.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised at the restraint they've shown to date, as by now I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them.
Give them time. Some Israelis want this because they want the land and to develop new beach front properties, and exploit the offshore oil & gas. But forcibly deporting Palestinians would be ethnic cleansing, and a crime against humanity in itself. And this situation happened because once upon a time, there was a state called Palestine, which has steadily been shrinking. Once upon a time, there was a state called Ukraine, which is now 20% smaller than it was in 1991? Why is it lawful for one state to seize territory, but not another? And of course if you go back further in time, there was thing called Exodus, which many Israelis, and some Jews seem determined to recreate with 'forcible deportations', concentration camps and ghettos.
Not all Israelis and Jews believe in this idea, and many think a peaceful solution would be better. But that's just one of Israel's problems. Bibi the Bomber is back in business, and doing what he does best.. creating 'martyrs' and helping breed the next generation of extremists and terrorists.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 19:16 GMT Roland6
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
> What prople seem to forget is…
The zionists who founded the modern state of Israel and their hard line followers have similar no shades of grey views over what the extent of modern Israel will be and who gets to live there.
If the current residents of Gaza leave and cross the border into Egypt, expect Israel to block their return and occupy Gaza in the same way they have occupied the West Bank…
The only real way forward is to neuter the firebrands and rabble raises, who are predominantly men, on both sides…
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 23:33 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
The only real way forward is to neuter the firebrands and rabble raises, who are predominantly men, on both sides…
A bit sexist, but broadly true. One obvious solution would be war crimes tribunals, but Israel ignores the ICC as do the US and Russia. Sanctions could work, but they haven't against Russia, Iran, DPRK and can also be illegal under anti-BDS legislation. But again this is the problem. If war crimes aren't prosecuted, then there's no real incentive to stop committing them. Short of a coup in Israel, they can't do anything either because Israel has declared war, so Bibi's existing legal problems, as well as any future ones are currently on hold.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 06:25 GMT Zolko
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them
so you acknowledge that you think that Israel is the same type of criminal state ready for mass murdering as the Nazis were ? You should be careful, such discourse can land you in uncomfortable places
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Monday 23rd October 2023 07:06 GMT amanfromMars 1
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
so you acknowledge that you think that Israel is the same type of criminal state ready for mass murdering as the Nazis were ? You should be careful, such discourse can land you in uncomfortable places ....... Zolko
Who would venture that such actions are not worthy of an uncomfortable place, Zolko?
Here’s some not entirely to be unexpected news of some possibly quite devastating collateral damage with Great Game changing possibilities/opportunities to boot and praise or lament giving life and revolutionary zeal to ......... https://www.zerohedge.com/political/i-will-never-vote-biden-michigan-muslims-betrayed-blank-check-backing-israel ..... if one is content with the obvious creative failures of the current status quo .
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 19:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
> While Hamas wantonly and maliciously targets civilians
One of the purposes of having Reservists and National Service is to permit military personnel (both present and future) to hide in the civilian population.
It is notable that Israel isn’t disclosing how many of its “civilian” casulties are military personnel hiding behind the fig leaf of civilian life…
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 23:27 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
It is notable that Israel isn’t disclosing how many of its “civilian” casulties are military personnel hiding behind the fig leaf of civilian life…
That isn't really relevant. They were mostly non-combatants, and if they weren't active duty, they count as civilians. There were also other war crimes committed, ie 'perfidy', or Hamas terrorists dressing up as IDF troops. It's one of those smaller details that's routinely ignored. So again in Ukraine, international volunteers have been wearing their national flags on their uniforms, which is contrary to the laws of war given flags on uniforms identify the nationality of the beligerants.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 12:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
There is a a difference between combatants and non-combatants. Attacks on non-combatants are war crimes.
Nobody can choose where and to whom they are born. I hope never to understand what it's like to struggle against such oppression as the Palestinian people are condemned to exist under.
All perpetrators of war crimes, and crimes against humanity must be held accountable.
There is a difference between the International Law position that an occupied people are allowed to use what means are available to them and abrogating the belligerent parties responsibility to protect non-combatants, This is a basic human value as much as a legal one.
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:47 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
There are no substantiated reports of rape. The other atrocity propaganda has been repeatedly debunked.
There is a photo in the Israeli press of a uniformed man with a headband and a gun - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-18/ty-article-magazine/.premium/we-are-light-years-behind-hamas-in-the-battle-for-public-consciousness/0000018b-3d0f-d07d-a99b-fdcf93100000
or https://archive.ph/x1fDk
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...
The survivors tell a different story...
The accounts of survivors[5] that directly contradict the propagated image of bloodthirsty Hamas fighters indiscriminately raping and killing civilians are, of course, being routinely ignored by mainstream media outlets
[1]It is telling you are so ready to accept atrocity propaganda
[1]Furthermore, while the widely repeated claims that “Hamas fighters raped women” are unverified, it is well documented [2] that the sexual torture of Palestinian detainees by Israeli authorities is “systemic,” and includes verbal sexual harassment, forced nudity, and physical sexual assault.
This sexual abuse also extends to Palestinian children kidnapped by Israeli forces.[3]
Similarly, while the claim that Hamas beheaded babies remains unverified, the decapitation of multiple Palestinian children in Gaza – just some of the hundreds murdered by Israel’s bombs in the last week – has already been confirmed by the heartbreaking eyewitness account of a CGTN reporter[4].
James Baldwin once noted: “Whatever you see in other people is what you see in the mirror … everybody knows, or every writer knows … no matter what I may be describing, I am describing myself.”
Israel’s routine depiction of Hamas as barbaric, sadistic torturers brings the searing truth of Baldwin’s words sharply into focus.
[1] https://electronicintifada.net/content/worse-isis-debunking-israeli-propaganda/38941
[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26718999/
[3] https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_interrogator_sexually_assaults_palestinian_child_detainee
[4] https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1713819567552700438
[5] https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 06:41 GMT well meaning but ultimately self defeating
Missing the point
The reason for much anger over Paddy’s comments is on the day of the tragedy and for days afterwards - including before the response had even begun - he tweeted and liked multiple comments criticising Israel, not once acknowledging the horror of what has been done. One can support Palestinians and a two state solution and feel terrible for Gazans without implicitly condoning the cutting up of pregnant women, beheading and burning alive babies, killing children in front of their families etc. He chose not to do that.
If he had really wanted to open his well known big mouth he could have respected that.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 12:37 GMT Dan 55
Re: Missing the point
I believe the timeline was he opened his well-known big mouth on the 13th of October after the IDF were unable to (and are still are unable to till this day) confirm reports news reports from i24News about "beheading and burning alive babies".
So why would he need to mention it? It was a war crime by terrorists, that's blatantly obvious. Why the need to qualify support for people trapped in Gaza while it's being razed to the ground by having to mention unconfirmed news reports about a terrorist group from an outlet which is has a history of bias when it comes to Israel-Hamas war, the IDF, and Netanyahu?
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 17:43 GMT well meaning but ultimately self defeating
Re: Missing the point
No. He opened his big mouth on the 7th.
And the beheaded babies (not clear on exact number - does it really matter?), beheaded pregnant woman with fetus cut out and stabbed stories have been confirmed. Sorry if that does not fit in your world view. Does it change your opinion?
Guess they are only Jews so it doesn’t really matter to you.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 11:13 GMT well meaning but ultimately self defeating
Re: Missing the point
So do I. An innocent life is an innocent life.
But there is a sharp moral distinction between a genocidal organisation that is sworn to destroy Israel - and has happily provided lots of video evidence of what that means in terms of brutally murdering civilians, and is ideologically supported in polls by more than 50% of Gaza; and a country defending itself and doing its best to avoid collateral damage in a military conflict, especially where the numbers of Palestinian casualties are reported in aggregate by a recognised terrorist organisation that has proven itself to lie on multiple occasions.
Sorry if that idea is too difficult for you to understand
And let's get a grip here - most Israeli's would give land for peace any day of the week. However as the Palestinian's have shown - the only option with them at this time is land for terrorism.
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: Missing the point
Since Oct 7, the Israeli occupation forces has killed 4,651 Palestinians in Gaza, including 1,873 children, 1,023 women, and 187 elderly people, in addition to the injury of 14,245 people.
The Health Ministry has received 1,450 reports of missing people still under the rubble.
[1]Electronic Intifada published a long interview with Yasmin Pora[2], describing how she was held hostage by Palestinian militants in Kibbutz Be’eri. According to her account, the kidnappers treated her and other hostages “humanely,” believing they would be allowed to retreat safely to Gaza due to the protection of the Israeli captives. However, when the Israeli soldiers arrived, “they eliminated everyone, including the hostages. There was very, very heavy crossfire.”
Her testimony is complemented by evidence from Israeli soldiers who described how the Israeli military shot tank shells into buildings where militants and their hostages were hiding.
On October 11, Quique Kierszenbaum reported in The Guardian [3] about his tour of Kibbutz Be’eri, a tour organized by the Israeli Army’s propaganda unit. He writes:
“Building after building has been destroyed, whether in the Hamas assault or in the fighting that followed, nearby trees splintered and walls reduced to concrete rubble from where Israeli tanks blasted the Hamas militants where they were hiding. Floors collapsed on floors. Roof beams were tangled and exposed like rib cages.”
In another report in Haaretz in Hebrew (it does not appear to be available in English) on October 11, probably following the same army-guided PR tour, Nir Hasson and Eden Solomon interviewed “Erez, deputy commander of an armoured reserve battalion.” He described how he and his tanks unit “fought inside the kibbutz, from house to house, with the tanks.” “We had no choice,” he concludes.
Sure your atrocity propaganda has been "confirmed" confirmed as the clear bullshit it so obviously was.
I'm getting a lot of question [sic] about the reports of "Hamas beheaded babies” that were published after the media tour in the village. During the tour we didn’t see any evidence of this, and the army spokesperson or commanders also didn’t mention any such incidents. During the tour, journalists were allowed to speak to the hundreds of soldiers on site, without the supervision of the army's spokesperson team. [...] Soldiers I spoke with in Kfar Aza yesterday didn't mention "beheaded babies”. [...]
[4][1] https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
[2] https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/it-was-a-pogrom-beeri-survivors-horrific-attack-hamas-terrorists
[4] https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/
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Monday 23rd October 2023 09:40 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: Missing the point
A two state solution is a complete fiction, there is no land which makes that possible, the settlers in the west bank, in Hebron and the rest of Palestine, make it impossible.
The people repeating this idea know this, ZST is not going to retreat to the 1967 borders, it's not logistically, nor politically possible, but equality can be delivered with the stroke of a pen.
A one state reality exists, and all people from river to sea must be given equal rights, and protections under the law. A Free Palestine from River to Sea. A single state with a vote for each person, and an end to armed conflict and the murder of innocents.
There is a genocide happening under the eyes of the world, we can see it happening, we are complicit in this monstrous crime.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 12:49 GMT TVU
Re: Missing the point
"A two state solution is a complete fiction, there is no land which makes that possible, the settlers in the west bank, in Hebron and the rest of Palestine, make it impossible"
It is not impossible and the joint Palestinian-Israeli Geneva Initiative* is the way forward. Once this conflict is over, I want significant international pressure applied to both sides to reach an agreed solution along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.
*I should add that they accept donations.
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Tuesday 24th October 2023 15:15 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: Missing the point
The real objection to a one state solution, is the end to depriving millions of people of their rights based on a racist premise that some people are "human animals".
A "two state solution" is a mere rhetorical fig-leaf for entrenching the injustice of the violent dispossession of the Palestinian people. It's also been tried, what happened is one of the States occupied the other in 1967 and is still occupying it. Today the lack of territorial continuity means there exists no land for a state to occupy quite aside from the presence of "human facts on the ground" in the form of circa 700,000 armed settlers.
So a One state solution where all people have equal rights is the only answer.
Equal rights means the perpetrators of crimes against humanity as well as the crimes against the person will need to be held accountable before the law.
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Tuesday 7th November 2023 17:48 GMT GNU SedGawk
Re: Missing the point
The fiction that an apartheid regime on 78% of Palestine can be seized by force is not going to fly. For everybody's sake, Palestine needs to be liberated, and all it's inhabitants given equal rights in a single democratic State, with a constitution based on the UN declaration of human rights.
All the perpetrators of crimes against humanity must be brought to justice, and the rights of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes respected and implemented in full.
So equal rights for everybody, equality under the law for everybody, everybody gets to vote, everybody gets freedom of movement, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 12:43 GMT Kraggy
The FACT IS that what Israel has done to Gaza, turning off water/power/food to a civilian population IS a war crime as defined by the UN and other partisan bodies, so called it out is entirely reasonable .. just as calling Hamas a terrorist organisation for what it did.
I am sick and tired of the 'West' gining Isreal free-reign to do as it likes with impunity.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 15:20 GMT amanfromMars 1
Ok, let’s try another awkward question verging on concentration camp type ethnic cleansing
Since when are nations required to provide free water, power and food to their neighbours? .... Spazturtle
Since when were nations allowed to prevent the provision of free water, power and food to exterminate their neighbours is the question to be asked here, Spazturtle?
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Monday 23rd October 2023 18:16 GMT Roland6
> Can the UK shut down all its power stations and demand that France supply it with free electricity?
Yes, however the French are free to ignore the UKs request…
However, things get a little m less clear cut if the French government were to instruct EDF to shutdown all the UK power plants it operates.
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Tuesday 24th October 2023 09:10 GMT Jellied Eel
Since when are nations required to provide free water, power and food to their neighbours?
Gaza pays for it's power, water, fuel and food. There was a desalination plant, but I think that's been bombed now and would require power anyway. But Gaza's been under strict blockade anyway with limits on what can be imported. Sometimes for good reason, ie it might want to import tons of sugar because Gazans have a sweet tooth, or because sugar can be used as rocket fuel.
Money for this comes mostly from Qatar and Turkey, not Iran. Iran's been bigged up as being behind everything, which ignores the falling out between Hamas and Iran. Hamas was fighting againts the Syrian government in Syria, so bizarrely, sided with the US, Israel, and all of Obama's 'Moderate Terrorists', like ISIL and AQ. This may also explain where some of Hamas's weapons came from. But politics are strange in that region. Iran, Russia, Hezbollah and Syrian government forces have been fighting Hamas in Syria.
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Sunday 22nd October 2023 18:21 GMT Snowy
A rocket is a bomb
When it goes off it destroys things and people. It does not care if your innocent or guilty it is indiscriminate.
The collateral damage and lives lost are never going to be seen by the Palestine's as a an acceptable lost and by some it is going to be a call to arms and recruiting for the next round of the conflict.
They talk about Hamas fighting in a cowardly way when they are also fighting in a cowardly way, shooting a rocket from miles away is hardly brave.
The "brave" thing would be going in on "foot" this would allow a "better" application of force but it comes with a lot more risk to their armed forces and Israel would see a lot more causalities in their armed forces.
Ultimately this conflict is not going to end with the use of force it is going to need a pollical solution, the problem is neither side leaders want it, due to the hard liners on both sides.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 09:23 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: A rocket is a bomb
To get to the political solution, force is needed. In Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel and wherever.
So are you saying that Russia was right to use force to end Ukraine's civil war and the oppression of it's ethnic Russian population? It's right to occupy and effectively annex a large part of Syria? It was right to destroy Libya? And of course it's right to destroy Gaza.
You're right that political force could have been used to solve the Palestinian problem. There are a long list of UN Resolutions that define what the state of Israel should be, but isn't. Palestine has steadily been eroded, land and property seized without any compensation, and thousands of Palestinians and Israelis have died as a consequence of a 'might makes right' policy. One which is often contrary to international law. That has also lead to wider terrorism and extremism problems, and more innocent victims because our 'leaders' have been unwilling to solve this problem.
Force demonstrably hasn't worked, and has simply created more extremism and political problems.
Again I think this demonstrates whether the UN and International Law is fit for purpose. UN Resolutions can be ignored, war crimes go unpunished, and actions that go directly against international Treaties and Conventions are routinely ignored. Israel, and other beligerants have a legal duty to protect civilians, both their own and others caught up in armed conflicts. Israel, as an occupying power has a duty de facto and de jure to protect Palestinians. But, as the other poster said, it also has a problem of loss tolerance. When it's previously done ground operations into Palestinian or Lebanese territory, it's taken fairly heavy losses. If it tries again, those losses will be worse. Especially as it's busy creating conditions in Gaza that will make it very difficult and very dangerous for IDF vehicles and troops to operate. So it's sitting back and bombing Gaza out of existence.
But that's been the desired 'Final Solution' for the Israeli war hawks that have long wanted the land Gaza currently occupies. Israeli officials have already talked about an 'expanded DMZ', which is very unlikely to be created on Israel's territory. It's talked about entirely severing responsibilities for Gaza, even as an occupying power. I suspect it's unlikely to mean Gaza will be allowed to rebuild it's ports and airport, and trade freely. But that's unlikely to work while some Palestinians and Arabs are determined to kill each other. One possible solution is to maybe put it under UN administration, similar to the Cypriot partition. That mostly works, but then the Greeks and Turks seem less determined to kill each other.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 10:33 GMT SundogUK
Re: A rocket is a bomb
"...for the Israeli war hawks that have long wanted the land Gaza currently occupies"
Israel owned Gaza from 1967 to 2005. They voluntarily vacated it and gave it to the palestinians, with a fully functional economic base. Which the palestinians destroyed and then voted Hamas in to power 9 to 1.
Israel isn't the problem here.
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Monday 23rd October 2023 12:12 GMT Jellied Eel
Re: A rocket is a bomb
Israel owned Gaza from 1967 to 2005.
No, they occupied it after capturing it from Egypt.
They voluntarily vacated it and gave it to the palestinians, with a fully functional economic base.
No, they vacated it as part of the Oslo Accords, and blockaded it ever since. Part of the Oslo Accords were also supposed to prevent settlement expansion, which Bibi promptly ignored. Now Bibi's back and doing what he does best, which is bombing stuff and creating more problems.
Israel isn't the problem here.
It, or some Israelis (and Jews) certainly are part of the problem. Others want peace. If you want to learn more about the politics though, look at the curious history of Hamas. Originally an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, it arguably became controlled opposition to counter the PLO. And as with other manufactured opposition groups, it quickly span out of control. But also consider..
In September 1997, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hamas leader Khaled Mashal who lived in Jordan. Two Mossad agents entered Jordan on false Canadian passports and sprayed Mashal with a nerve agent on a street in Amman.
Remember the outrage when Russians allegedly did similar in Winchester? Again, it's part of the hypocrisy and double standards that fuel these types of conflicts.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
