back to article Web Summit CEO's comments on Israeli conflict 'war crimes' sparks boycott

Meta and Stripe have joined Google, Intel, and Siemens in a growing boycott of next month's Web Summit in Lisbon after the event's chief executive compared Israel's actions in response to attacks by Hamas as "war crimes." The comments, made by Web Summit CEO Paddy Cosgrave earlier this week on social media, criticized the …

  1. ragnar

    He's right.

    Shame on the companies that have pulled out, especially the likes of Stripe who should know better.

    1. DS999 Silver badge

      Why? They can boycott someone for any reason. You are free to boycott those companies if you don't agree with their reason.

      The CEO was exercising his right of free speech. Free speech doesn't mean speech free from consequences. Even consequences you think are unfair.

      1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

        They can boycott someone for any reason. You are free to boycott those companies if you don't agree with their reason.

        They can.

        But it doesn't look good to me when they boycott for calling out war crimes as war crimes when they are by any objective definition.

        Not in my name.

      2. Max Pyat

        You're missing the point

      3. Ace2 Silver badge

        Oh, you mean like Boycott, Divest & Sanction? Which is actually ILLEGAL now where I am. I *have* to do business with Israeli firms whether I want to or not.

        Free speech, my ass.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        A Saudi prince has now said the same thing. Is Saudi Arabia going to be boycotted in the same way ?

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67177684

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          Saudi princes are a special case. They can say whatever they want, because your car runs on their fuel.

      5. JoeCool Bronze badge

        Duuuuh

        Intel et al are caving to the exact same type of pressure as Apple did in droping Jon Stewart's show.

        This actually the opposite of free speech, and is certainly anti-democracy.

        1. Plest Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Duuuuh

          Apple, Intel, et al are not public services, I don't pay to fund them, they private entities and entitled to as they wish. As a right minded, free thinking adult I'm allowed to make up my own mind as to whether I choose to use their products or not. Welcome to capitalism!

      6. FeepingCreature Bronze badge

        Freedom = Freedom from consequences

        Free speech has of course always meant freedom from certain consequences. The term "freedom" is worthless if it doesn't include consequences - by that metric, China and Russia have free speech. You just have to deal with the consequences, which may include torture and murder.

  2. Tron Silver badge

    There should be no free pass for killing civilians. Not for anyone.

    'War crimes are war crimes even when committed by allies'. 100% agreement.

    Anybody who kills civilians, directly or by denying them food, water or medical aid, deserves to be condemned and charged with crimes against humanity. It is not an acceptable response.

    An acceptable response to the murder of your civilians is to target those responsible and take only them out. Even if it is difficult, costs money and takes time. Being angry is not an excuse.

    The tech companies are running scared of governments and politicians have no ethics at all.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1

      Anybody who kills civilians, directly or by denying them food, water or medical aid, deserves to be condemned and charged with crimes against humanity. It is not an acceptable response.

      An acceptable response to the murder of your civilians is to target those responsible and take only them out. Even if it is difficult, costs money and takes time. Being angry is not an excuse. ..... Tron

      The nationalised offer of unconditional moral support and additional foreign military allied aid to regimes committing war crimes surely has those national leaderships and Prime Ministers and Secretaries of State for Defence etc., responsible for the committing of prime primed foreign allied assets, actively complicit in the crime and therefore legitimate accurate targets for appropriate attention/sanction/prosecution/persecution/disdain ‽ .

      Surely such persons of interest cannot be imagining themselves to be unworthy and immune from punitive repercussions whenever they be such obvious cheerleaders/rabble rousers/quislings?

      Whenever things are complex to solve, such a keeping of things simple is surely a viable and suitably unpleasant and discouraging response to troublemakers, both enthusiastic and otherwise.

      Methinks though differently, Tron, regarding the first half of .....

      The tech companies are running scared of governments and politicians have no ethics at all.

      ....... with the true ACTive state of present and future affairs being governments and politicians running scared and being terrified of and petrified by the unknown possibilities freely available to/from absolutely fabulous tech wielding companies.

      1. Dacarlo

        Re: Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1

        UK Gov. PLC is/has flogged hundreds of millions of £££ of arms to Israel. This goes a long way to explain why they're so big on supporting the committing of said heinous acts.

        https://caat.org.uk/news/statement-on-uk-arms-exports-to-israel/

        Money talks.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1

          "UK Gov. PLC is/has flogged hundreds of millions of £££ of arms to Israel."

          So what? We've sold a whole lot more to Arab states, primarily Saudi Arabia.

        2. Snowy Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Removing the head avoids collateral damage/saves the body from suffering pain. Lesson #1

          The more rockets they fire the more they will need to replace?

  3. Ace2 Silver badge

    Look out, here comes the “anti-semitism” brigade to explain to all of us how blowing up starving children isn’t a crime, if Israel does it.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Let us not forget, the children are starving because of previous actions by the Israeli government…

      1. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

        Let us not forget that the reason there is a blockade is that from the moment that Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip they were firing rockets into Israel. Or are they supposed to just sit back and be bombarded.

    2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?

      1. Jedit Silver badge
        Stop

        "Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"

        Were all war crimes. Especially the second nuke on Japan - for the first one at least there was the argument that they were trying to force Japan to surrender without an invasion of the Home Islands which would have had a far higher death toll on both sides than the mere loss of one city. The second one was used after Japan was already planning to surrender, purely to hurry them up and to show that America could destroy anyone they wanted.

        As the first commenter on this article said: war crimes don't stop being war crimes just because the winner committed them. But only losers are prosecuted for them.

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: "Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"

          The second one was used after Japan was already planning to surrender, purely to hurry them up and to show that America could destroy anyone they wanted.

          This is false, as confirmed by Japanese military and diplomatic archival materials that were decrypted by the US during the war but only released to the public in the 1990s. See Frank's Downfall for a comprehensive discussion, with citations.

          That does not necessarily justify the Nagasaki bombing, or the Hiroshima one for that matter; but the common complaint that "Japan was already preparing to surrender" is not supported by the preponderance of available evidence.

          1. Jedit Silver badge
            Thumb Up

            Re: "Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"

            Thanks, Michael. I always appreciate a correction with citations.

      2. Mooseman Silver badge

        "Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Dresden?"

        You could argue about the rights and wrongs of nuking Japan all day, although it's not a coincidence that Russia was eyeing up chunks of Japan and needed to be shown who was boss...

        Dresden of course is a case of everyone still using the faked figures produced by Goebbels in 1945 - the Germans' own official figures were roughly 25000 killed, which while dreadful were no worse than any one of a dozen similar attacks at that time, but the propaganda multiplied if by a factor of 10, and that's the figure everyone still quotes.

    3. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

      They share the ideology, methodology and personnel as the people who perpetrated the Deir Yassin atrocity. [2]

      Ezra Yachin, who was involved in the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre, tells troops 'these animals can no longer live', referring to Palestinians [1]

      [1] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children

      [2] https://www.deiryassin.org/

    4. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

      Vengeance for stealing the dream that Zionists could live in safety while occupying people.

      The dehumanization of Palestinians and the softening up of the public to accept genocide and ethic cleansing is heartbreaking.

      There is no going back now, the world saw a people define their own narrative, the world is seeing a government saying children deserve death because of their ethnicity, 4,000 unarmed Palestinian men, women and children have been slaughtered indiscriminately. 1,600 Palestinian children including babies are dead. Over 50 entire families have been wiped from the population register.

      As the Zionist enemy declares 2 million people in Gaza, half of them children, to be "human animals," cuts off food and water to all of them and openly massacres them ... the whole rotten Western elite, endorses this savagery"

      The last hospital they bombed: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion

      The one they are threatening: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-ehud-barak-warns-gaza-shifa-hospital-target

      I hope that a end to the fighting is called, with all people being give equal rights in a democratic Free Palestine.

      Sadly I think this is going to results in the Zionist State Terrorist group murdering so many people that other countries will get involved.

  4. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Looking forward to US big tech sector leaving Ireland

    After all, it's exactly the same position that the Irish government has.

    You've got to wonder how most politicians can keep up the cognitive dissonance, just compare and contrast their response to this with their response to Ukraine.

  5. demon driver

    While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

    ..., his position completely ignores the factual differences between both sides and thus trivialises Hamas' attacks and demonises Israel's defence. While Hamas wantonly and maliciously targets civilians, Israel targets Hamas facilities and hideouts and warns civilians in the area about the bombings. The death of every single person is terrible. However, to ask Israel not to bomb Hamas even though civilians in their vicinity have been warned is to ask Israel to stop defending itself.

    So the reactions to Cosgrave's comments are perfectly in order. And it is bewildering how widespread such factually pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel opinions are, based entirely on *not* applying the same standards to both sides, whether out of malice or lack of information.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

      Congratulations, it seems you're the first who dared.

      Perhaps neighbourhoods in Ireland should have been bombed in air strikes because of the IRA or people in the Basque Country because of ETA? With a two hour warning first as it's only fair.

      And even that doesn't capture the how much of a war crime it is because Gaza is a confined area with nowhere for civilians to escape to.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        "Perhaps neighbourhoods in Ireland should have been bombed in air strikes because of the IRA or people in the Basque Country because of ETA? With a two hour warning first as it's only fair."

        Both in Ireland and Spain, the terrorists were a small and fragmented rabble, setting off a few bombs and carrying out a few murders that in the bigger scheme of things amounted to nothing. Admittedly they kept at it over a long period of time, but at no point did they pose a major threat to Spain or the UK. So your logic doesn't hold up.

        Hamas on the other hand are a small army, and carried out a mass attack on Israel, killed 1,300 people mostly civilians in two days, kidnapped a couple of hundred hostages, and have fired something of the order of 6,000 rockets into Israel and continue to do so. I've no love for Israel, but Hamas set out to provoke Israel, they succeeded, and now they have got a proportionate reaction.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        The warnings come minutes before complete destruction of civilian housing, as seen live on TV.

      3. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        >because Gaza is a confined area with nowhere for civilians to escape to.

        The correct term for this is "ghetto" but you'll find that open use of this term will get you into trouble. (BTW -- I'm in the US, I'm an insignificant person and I'm retired so I can say what I want without my career being threatened......)

        (Incidentally, been in Europe recently and I was somewhat taken back by the level of censorship there. There wasn't even any attempt to disguise it.)

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          (Incidentally, been in Europe recently and I was somewhat taken back by the level of censorship there. There wasn't even any attempt to disguise it.)

          I must congratulate you on your advanced knowledge of 30 different languages that meant you were able to understand the press to such a level that you were able to see where all the censorship was.

        2. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          Correct term is not ghetto. It’s a standalone region with borders.

          The reason there is a blockade is because they keep bringing in weapons to stack Israeli. Hamas are not like this because they are trapped in Gaza, they are trapped in Gaza because they are like this.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          《The correct term for this is "ghetto" 》

          Oddly I was thinking of parallels with Warsaw which should get one canceled into oblivion.

          As far as I am concerned the whole of the Levant, and middle east in general, is an utter obscenity with basically no redeeming features. How any of the parties involved can begin to imagine facing their creator on judgment day is totally beyond me.

          1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

            Oddly I was thinking of parallels with Warsaw which should get one canceled into oblivion. .... Anonymous Coward

            When/If the parallels of the Warsaw ghetto with its historically well documented trials and tribulations, starvations and hardships and imprisonments are more valid than not, is Israel then to deny and not realise it is become an unwelcome and barbaric pariah fascist state ..... a Third Reich-like clone apparently intent, at great cost to everybody and the dogs of war on the planet, on expanding its empire and influence on power and energy whilst expropriating land and raw field and rare earth assets with catastrophic bloodlettings and organised chaos dispensing and exercising madness and mayhem?

            What else would they see themselves as being extremely similar to as would make no difference to anyone with a titter of wit and load of pure common sense about them?

            And those are the sorts of very awkward questions all the leaderships of Israel's presently supportive allies need to be asked and asking of themselves, methinks, lest they be easily able to be charged and prosecuted and persecuted as wilful co-conspirators in a joint criminal enterprise and war crimes venture.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

      Israel targets Hamas facilities and hideouts and warns civilians in the area about the bombings

      Nope. Israel announced it was switching to no-knock bombings and has been levelling city blocks in Gaza. Sure, there may have been Hamas soldiers or weapons in some of those buildings, but an awful lot of collateral damage as well.

      Problem is one of hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. Only a few days prior, a cafe with allegedly 300 people sitting down to mourn a dead soldier was all over the news as a heinous 'war crime'. The building didn't look big enough to seat 300, there were almost certainly military personnel there, and we don't know for certain who caused the explosion. Then there was the hospital bombing. 500 claimed dead, which seems.. excessive for a small car park. We don't know who caused the explosion there either.

      But there's also been smaller war crimes committed. There's been video of Israeli soldiers on a patrol boat shooting swimmers in the water after a Hamas boat was blown up, or executing Hamas soldiers that were surrendering. There was also video of Hamas soldiers executing some IDF personnel hiding under a desk. All are arguably war crimes, but the reactions differ. The danger is unless we consider all war crime equally, our enemies will just point at the hypocrisy and double standards. And yet we're supposed to be the force for good in the world, upholding the Western ideals of democracy, freedom and justice.

      1. Stork Silver badge

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        For once, I completely agree with the esteemed Mr Eel

      2. demon driver

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        As I said, Cosgrave is formally correct, I never claimed there were no war crimes committed by IDF, and I never claimed that they shouldn't be called out for what they are if there are any.

        There is no such thing as truth in Palestine, though, not in whatever might count as peace and even less in war, and reports around the world are mostly biased. For example, official continental European news channels were eager to cite those hundreds dead in an allegedly Israeli hospital bombing, while it indeed seems excessive for a small car park, and evidence rather points to a terrorist rocket that failed and broke in two above that hospital. But you won't ever hear any Palestinian voice admitting that.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          There is no such thing as truth in Palestine

          There's no such thing as truth in war, or politics. This is the problem.

          ...while it indeed seems excessive for a small car park, and evidence rather points to a terrorist rocket that failed and broke in two above that hospital. But you won't ever hear any Palestinian voice admitting that.

          Or Ukraine, which is the danger. You assume it was a terrorist rocket that failed, broke in two and did the damage. There's some video of an erratic missile that exploded, possibly over the hospital. Most of the missiles fired from Gaza have both small propellant and payloads, so would those create the damage seen in the videos and photos? Or, did the missile explode in the air as a result of an intercept from an Iron Dome or Patriot interceptor? If so, the terrorist's missile may still have had a viable warhead, the interceptor wouldn't, but there'd still be debris from both missiles obeying gravity.

          Israel knows this through experience, ie trying to define 'safe' intercept zones where failed intercepts minimise damage. In Ukraine though, every errant missile or debris from an intercept is reported as a 'war crime' rather than physics. It's also the same with reporting, ie an explosion near a market when Blinken visited Ukraine was a Russian war crime, even though it turned out the missile was Ukrainian. These things happen.

          It's also whether the existing definitions of war crimes are fit for purpose. So there's two kind of conflicting requirements. Beligerents must minimise civilian casualties, and must not use human shields. But in a very densely populated place like Gaza, how do you avoid both? Should the laws of war be updated to clarify the kinds of armed conflicts we're seeing now, especially with the weapons being used? But by not applying those laws equally, we just risk perpetuating the violence. Hamas knew very well what Israel's reaction would be, and Israel has delivered. Hamas and extemists are now using images of the devastation to recruit. We condemn and sanction Russia when it bombs apartment buildings, we support and arm Israel when it does the same thing. Extremists use that apparent hypocrisy to recruit because the West doesn't care about Arabs.

          1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

            Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

            When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked. Same with Hamas/Israel, any war crime committed is a war crime committed by Hamas. Hamas can end this today by surrendering, and they could see improvement in their situation by accepting that Israel isn't going anywhere.

            What prople seem to forget is Hamas, Palestinians and Muslims in general have publicly stated for years that Israel has no right to exist, and all Jews must be exterminated. They have performed/funded/cheered actions that work towards this goal. Israel has had to live with Palestinians setting off bombs and lobbing mortars for decades, to the point that 2-3 explosions in a day no longer makes the news outside local. Quite frankly, I'm surprised at the restraint they've shown to date, as by now I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them.

            1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

              Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'... @L.V.Lipvig

              When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked. Same with Hamas/Israel, any war crime committed is a war crime committed by Hamas. Hamas can end this today by surrendering, and they could see improvement in their situation by accepting that Israel isn't going anywhere. ..... M.V.Lipvig

              Are you really being serious and truly believe what you have said there, M.V. Lipvig, believing that there be others too who would find that perfectly acceptable and just and supportive of that...... well, surely no one could viably argue it is not a radical fundamentalist view ?

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

              When a criminal commits a crime, unintentional damage or damage caused by the response is on the criminal, not the responder. Any war crime committed in Russia/Ukraine is a Russian war crime as it would not have happened had Russia not attacked.

              That's an interesting interpretation of the law, which you probably shouldn't try to rely on in court. The Laws of War don't really make any distinctions like that, only to try to impose a lawful code of conduct on beligerants, and protections for non-combatants.

              What prople seem to forget is Hamas, Palestinians and Muslims in general have publicly stated for years that Israel has no right to exist, and all Jews must be exterminated.

              Extremists are everywhere. One just talked about how there would be a 'New World Order'.. Which will have conspiracy theorists heads exploding. Oh, and people yelling that we must nuke Iran because Iran is evil. Despite having a modest population of Jews who live there quite happily.

              Quite frankly, I'm surprised at the restraint they've shown to date, as by now I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them.

              Give them time. Some Israelis want this because they want the land and to develop new beach front properties, and exploit the offshore oil & gas. But forcibly deporting Palestinians would be ethnic cleansing, and a crime against humanity in itself. And this situation happened because once upon a time, there was a state called Palestine, which has steadily been shrinking. Once upon a time, there was a state called Ukraine, which is now 20% smaller than it was in 1991? Why is it lawful for one state to seize territory, but not another? And of course if you go back further in time, there was thing called Exodus, which many Israelis, and some Jews seem determined to recreate with 'forcible deportations', concentration camps and ghettos.

              Not all Israelis and Jews believe in this idea, and many think a peaceful solution would be better. But that's just one of Israel's problems. Bibi the Bomber is back in business, and doing what he does best.. creating 'martyrs' and helping breed the next generation of extremists and terrorists.

              1. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

                Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

                "Some Israelis want this because they want the land and to develop new beach front properties" - where do you make this stuff up from?

            3. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

              > What prople seem to forget is…

              The zionists who founded the modern state of Israel and their hard line followers have similar no shades of grey views over what the extent of modern Israel will be and who gets to live there.

              If the current residents of Gaza leave and cross the border into Egypt, expect Israel to block their return and occupy Gaza in the same way they have occupied the West Bank…

              The only real way forward is to neuter the firebrands and rabble raises, who are predominantly men, on both sides…

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

                The only real way forward is to neuter the firebrands and rabble raises, who are predominantly men, on both sides…

                A bit sexist, but broadly true. One obvious solution would be war crimes tribunals, but Israel ignores the ICC as do the US and Russia. Sanctions could work, but they haven't against Russia, Iran, DPRK and can also be illegal under anti-BDS legislation. But again this is the problem. If war crimes aren't prosecuted, then there's no real incentive to stop committing them. Short of a coup in Israel, they can't do anything either because Israel has declared war, so Bibi's existing legal problems, as well as any future ones are currently on hold.

            4. Zolko Silver badge

              Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

              I would have expected them to clean Gaza out to the last Palestinian by either killing or forcibly deporting them

              so you acknowledge that you think that Israel is the same type of criminal state ready for mass murdering as the Nazis were ? You should be careful, such discourse can land you in uncomfortable places

              1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

                Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

                so you acknowledge that you think that Israel is the same type of criminal state ready for mass murdering as the Nazis were ? You should be careful, such discourse can land you in uncomfortable places ....... Zolko

                Who would venture that such actions are not worthy of an uncomfortable place, Zolko?

                Here’s some not entirely to be unexpected news of some possibly quite devastating collateral damage with Great Game changing possibilities/opportunities to boot and praise or lament giving life and revolutionary zeal to ......... https://www.zerohedge.com/political/i-will-never-vote-biden-michigan-muslims-betrayed-blank-check-backing-israel ..... if one is content with the obvious creative failures of the current status quo .

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

      > While Hamas wantonly and maliciously targets civilians

      One of the purposes of having Reservists and National Service is to permit military personnel (both present and future) to hide in the civilian population.

      It is notable that Israel isn’t disclosing how many of its “civilian” casulties are military personnel hiding behind the fig leaf of civilian life…

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        It is notable that Israel isn’t disclosing how many of its “civilian” casulties are military personnel hiding behind the fig leaf of civilian life…

        That isn't really relevant. They were mostly non-combatants, and if they weren't active duty, they count as civilians. There were also other war crimes committed, ie 'perfidy', or Hamas terrorists dressing up as IDF troops. It's one of those smaller details that's routinely ignored. So again in Ukraine, international volunteers have been wearing their national flags on their uniforms, which is contrary to the laws of war given flags on uniforms identify the nationality of the beligerants.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          If you live in Israel, or have ann Israeli passport and support its annexation of land then you aren’t really a civilian…

          1. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

            Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

            There is a a difference between combatants and non-combatants. Attacks on non-combatants are war crimes.

            Nobody can choose where and to whom they are born. I hope never to understand what it's like to struggle against such oppression as the Palestinian people are condemned to exist under.

            All perpetrators of war crimes, and crimes against humanity must be held accountable.

            There is a difference between the International Law position that an occupied people are allowed to use what means are available to them and abrogating the belligerent parties responsibility to protect non-combatants, This is a basic human value as much as a legal one.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

        Not one of the palestinian rapist murderers were wearing a military uniform when they carried out their rape/murder attack.

        1. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          There are no substantiated reports of rape. The other atrocity propaganda has been repeatedly debunked.

          There is a photo in the Israeli press of a uniformed man with a headband and a gun - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-18/ty-article-magazine/.premium/we-are-light-years-behind-hamas-in-the-battle-for-public-consciousness/0000018b-3d0f-d07d-a99b-fdcf93100000

          or https://archive.ph/x1fDk

        2. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

          Re: While Cosgrave is, of course, formally 'right'...

          The survivors tell a different story...

          The accounts of survivors[5] that directly contradict the propagated image of bloodthirsty Hamas fighters indiscriminately raping and killing civilians are, of course, being routinely ignored by mainstream media outlets

          [1]

          It is telling you are so ready to accept atrocity propaganda

          Furthermore, while the widely repeated claims that “Hamas fighters raped women” are unverified, it is well documented [2] that the sexual torture of Palestinian detainees by Israeli authorities is “systemic,” and includes verbal sexual harassment, forced nudity, and physical sexual assault.

          This sexual abuse also extends to Palestinian children kidnapped by Israeli forces.[3]

          Similarly, while the claim that Hamas beheaded babies remains unverified, the decapitation of multiple Palestinian children in Gaza – just some of the hundreds murdered by Israel’s bombs in the last week – has already been confirmed by the heartbreaking eyewitness account of a CGTN reporter[4].

          James Baldwin once noted: “Whatever you see in other people is what you see in the mirror … everybody knows, or every writer knows … no matter what I may be describing, I am describing myself.”

          Israel’s routine depiction of Hamas as barbaric, sadistic torturers brings the searing truth of Baldwin’s words sharply into focus.

          [1]

          [1] https://electronicintifada.net/content/worse-isis-debunking-israeli-propaganda/38941

          [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26718999/

          [3] https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_interrogator_sexually_assaults_palestinian_child_detainee

          [4] https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1713819567552700438

          [5] https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

  6. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

    Missing the point

    The reason for much anger over Paddy’s comments is on the day of the tragedy and for days afterwards - including before the response had even begun - he tweeted and liked multiple comments criticising Israel, not once acknowledging the horror of what has been done. One can support Palestinians and a two state solution and feel terrible for Gazans without implicitly condoning the cutting up of pregnant women, beheading and burning alive babies, killing children in front of their families etc. He chose not to do that.

    If he had really wanted to open his well known big mouth he could have respected that.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Missing the point

      I believe the timeline was he opened his well-known big mouth on the 13th of October after the IDF were unable to (and are still are unable to till this day) confirm reports news reports from i24News about "beheading and burning alive babies".

      So why would he need to mention it? It was a war crime by terrorists, that's blatantly obvious. Why the need to qualify support for people trapped in Gaza while it's being razed to the ground by having to mention unconfirmed news reports about a terrorist group from an outlet which is has a history of bias when it comes to Israel-Hamas war, the IDF, and Netanyahu?

      1. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

        Re: Missing the point

        No. He opened his big mouth on the 7th.

        And the beheaded babies (not clear on exact number - does it really matter?), beheaded pregnant woman with fetus cut out and stabbed stories have been confirmed. Sorry if that does not fit in your world view. Does it change your opinion?

        Guess they are only Jews so it doesn’t really matter to you.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Missing the point

          I put Jews on exactly the same level as Palestinians and wish neither to be killed. I can distinguish terrorists (non-state-sponsored and state-sponsored) from the civilian population. Sorry if that idea is too difficult for you to understand.

          1. well meaning but ultimately self defeating

            Re: Missing the point

            So do I. An innocent life is an innocent life.

            But there is a sharp moral distinction between a genocidal organisation that is sworn to destroy Israel - and has happily provided lots of video evidence of what that means in terms of brutally murdering civilians, and is ideologically supported in polls by more than 50% of Gaza; and a country defending itself and doing its best to avoid collateral damage in a military conflict, especially where the numbers of Palestinian casualties are reported in aggregate by a recognised terrorist organisation that has proven itself to lie on multiple occasions.

            Sorry if that idea is too difficult for you to understand

            And let's get a grip here - most Israeli's would give land for peace any day of the week. However as the Palestinian's have shown - the only option with them at this time is land for terrorism.

        2. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

          Re: Missing the point

          Since Oct 7, the Israeli occupation forces has killed 4,651 Palestinians in Gaza, including 1,873 children, 1,023 women, and 187 elderly people, in addition to the injury of 14,245 people.

          The Health Ministry has received 1,450 reports of missing people still under the rubble.

          Electronic Intifada published a long interview with Yasmin Pora[2], describing how she was held hostage by Palestinian militants in Kibbutz Be’eri. According to her account, the kidnappers treated her and other hostages “humanely,” believing they would be allowed to retreat safely to Gaza due to the protection of the Israeli captives. However, when the Israeli soldiers arrived, “they eliminated everyone, including the hostages. There was very, very heavy crossfire.”

          Her testimony is complemented by evidence from Israeli soldiers who described how the Israeli military shot tank shells into buildings where militants and their hostages were hiding.

          On October 11, Quique Kierszenbaum reported in The Guardian [3] about his tour of Kibbutz Be’eri, a tour organized by the Israeli Army’s propaganda unit. He writes:

          “Building after building has been destroyed, whether in the Hamas assault or in the fighting that followed, nearby trees splintered and walls reduced to concrete rubble from where Israeli tanks blasted the Hamas militants where they were hiding. Floors collapsed on floors. Roof beams were tangled and exposed like rib cages.”

          In another report in Haaretz in Hebrew (it does not appear to be available in English) on October 11, probably following the same army-guided PR tour, Nir Hasson and Eden Solomon interviewed “Erez, deputy commander of an armoured reserve battalion.” He described how he and his tanks unit “fought inside the kibbutz, from house to house, with the tanks.” “We had no choice,” he concludes.

          [1]

          Sure your atrocity propaganda has been "confirmed" confirmed as the clear bullshit it so obviously was.

          I'm getting a lot of question [sic] about the reports of "Hamas beheaded babies” that were published after the media tour in the village. During the tour we didn’t see any evidence of this, and the army spokesperson or commanders also didn’t mention any such incidents. During the tour, journalists were allowed to speak to the hundreds of soldiers on site, without the supervision of the army's spokesperson team. [...] Soldiers I spoke with in Kfar Aza yesterday didn't mention "beheaded babies”. [...]
          [4]

          [1] https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/

          [2] https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

          [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/it-was-a-pogrom-beeri-survivors-horrific-attack-hamas-terrorists

          [4] https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

      2. Shuki26

        Re: Missing the point

        Dan 55, get on Telegram for all the barbaric Palestinian snuff you can handle. All the graphic evidence is there posted by Palestinians themselves to be proud of.

    2. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

      Re: Missing the point

      A two state solution is a complete fiction, there is no land which makes that possible, the settlers in the west bank, in Hebron and the rest of Palestine, make it impossible.

      The people repeating this idea know this, ZST is not going to retreat to the 1967 borders, it's not logistically, nor politically possible, but equality can be delivered with the stroke of a pen.

      A one state reality exists, and all people from river to sea must be given equal rights, and protections under the law. A Free Palestine from River to Sea. A single state with a vote for each person, and an end to armed conflict and the murder of innocents.

      There is a genocide happening under the eyes of the world, we can see it happening, we are complicit in this monstrous crime.

      1. TVU Silver badge

        Re: Missing the point

        "A two state solution is a complete fiction, there is no land which makes that possible, the settlers in the west bank, in Hebron and the rest of Palestine, make it impossible"

        It is not impossible and the joint Palestinian-Israeli Geneva Initiative* is the way forward. Once this conflict is over, I want significant international pressure applied to both sides to reach an agreed solution along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.

        *I should add that they accept donations.

        1. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

          Re: Missing the point

          The real objection to a one state solution, is the end to depriving millions of people of their rights based on a racist premise that some people are "human animals".

          A "two state solution" is a mere rhetorical fig-leaf for entrenching the injustice of the violent dispossession of the Palestinian people. It's also been tried, what happened is one of the States occupied the other in 1967 and is still occupying it. Today the lack of territorial continuity means there exists no land for a state to occupy quite aside from the presence of "human facts on the ground" in the form of circa 700,000 armed settlers.

          So a One state solution where all people have equal rights is the only answer.

          Equal rights means the perpetrators of crimes against humanity as well as the crimes against the person will need to be held accountable before the law.

        2. GNU SedGawk Bronze badge

          Re: Missing the point

          The fiction that an apartheid regime on 78% of Palestine can be seized by force is not going to fly. For everybody's sake, Palestine needs to be liberated, and all it's inhabitants given equal rights in a single democratic State, with a constitution based on the UN declaration of human rights.

          All the perpetrators of crimes against humanity must be brought to justice, and the rights of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes respected and implemented in full.

          So equal rights for everybody, equality under the law for everybody, everybody gets to vote, everybody gets freedom of movement, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience.

  7. Kraggy

    The FACT IS that what Israel has done to Gaza, turning off water/power/food to a civilian population IS a war crime as defined by the UN and other partisan bodies, so called it out is entirely reasonable .. just as calling Hamas a terrorist organisation for what it did.

    I am sick and tired of the 'West' gining Isreal free-reign to do as it likes with impunity.

    1. Spazturtle Silver badge

      Since when are nations required to provide free water, power and food to their neighbours?

      Can the UK shut down all it's power stations and demand that France supply it with free electricity?

      1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        Ok, let’s try another awkward question verging on concentration camp type ethnic cleansing

        Since when are nations required to provide free water, power and food to their neighbours? .... Spazturtle

        Since when were nations allowed to prevent the provision of free water, power and food to exterminate their neighbours is the question to be asked here, Spazturtle?

        1. Spazturtle Silver badge

          Re: Ok, let’s try another awkward question verging on concentration camp type ethnic cleansing

          Nations have always been allowed to close their borders and refuse to allow goods through.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        > Can the UK shut down all its power stations and demand that France supply it with free electricity?

        Yes, however the French are free to ignore the UKs request…

        However, things get a little m less clear cut if the French government were to instruct EDF to shutdown all the UK power plants it operates.

      3. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Since when are nations required to provide free water, power and food to their neighbours?

        Gaza pays for it's power, water, fuel and food. There was a desalination plant, but I think that's been bombed now and would require power anyway. But Gaza's been under strict blockade anyway with limits on what can be imported. Sometimes for good reason, ie it might want to import tons of sugar because Gazans have a sweet tooth, or because sugar can be used as rocket fuel.

        Money for this comes mostly from Qatar and Turkey, not Iran. Iran's been bigged up as being behind everything, which ignores the falling out between Hamas and Iran. Hamas was fighting againts the Syrian government in Syria, so bizarrely, sided with the US, Israel, and all of Obama's 'Moderate Terrorists', like ISIL and AQ. This may also explain where some of Hamas's weapons came from. But politics are strange in that region. Iran, Russia, Hezbollah and Syrian government forces have been fighting Hamas in Syria.

  8. Snowy Silver badge
    Holmes

    A rocket is a bomb

    When it goes off it destroys things and people. It does not care if your innocent or guilty it is indiscriminate.

    The collateral damage and lives lost are never going to be seen by the Palestine's as a an acceptable lost and by some it is going to be a call to arms and recruiting for the next round of the conflict.

    They talk about Hamas fighting in a cowardly way when they are also fighting in a cowardly way, shooting a rocket from miles away is hardly brave.

    The "brave" thing would be going in on "foot" this would allow a "better" application of force but it comes with a lot more risk to their armed forces and Israel would see a lot more causalities in their armed forces.

    Ultimately this conflict is not going to end with the use of force it is going to need a pollical solution, the problem is neither side leaders want it, due to the hard liners on both sides.

    1. Shuki26

      Re: A rocket is a bomb

      "this conflict is not going to end with the use of force" This is a post-modern concept that has no truth to it. To get to the political solution, force is needed. In Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel and wherever.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: A rocket is a bomb

        To get to the political solution, force is needed. In Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel and wherever.

        So are you saying that Russia was right to use force to end Ukraine's civil war and the oppression of it's ethnic Russian population? It's right to occupy and effectively annex a large part of Syria? It was right to destroy Libya? And of course it's right to destroy Gaza.

        You're right that political force could have been used to solve the Palestinian problem. There are a long list of UN Resolutions that define what the state of Israel should be, but isn't. Palestine has steadily been eroded, land and property seized without any compensation, and thousands of Palestinians and Israelis have died as a consequence of a 'might makes right' policy. One which is often contrary to international law. That has also lead to wider terrorism and extremism problems, and more innocent victims because our 'leaders' have been unwilling to solve this problem.

        Force demonstrably hasn't worked, and has simply created more extremism and political problems.

        Again I think this demonstrates whether the UN and International Law is fit for purpose. UN Resolutions can be ignored, war crimes go unpunished, and actions that go directly against international Treaties and Conventions are routinely ignored. Israel, and other beligerants have a legal duty to protect civilians, both their own and others caught up in armed conflicts. Israel, as an occupying power has a duty de facto and de jure to protect Palestinians. But, as the other poster said, it also has a problem of loss tolerance. When it's previously done ground operations into Palestinian or Lebanese territory, it's taken fairly heavy losses. If it tries again, those losses will be worse. Especially as it's busy creating conditions in Gaza that will make it very difficult and very dangerous for IDF vehicles and troops to operate. So it's sitting back and bombing Gaza out of existence.

        But that's been the desired 'Final Solution' for the Israeli war hawks that have long wanted the land Gaza currently occupies. Israeli officials have already talked about an 'expanded DMZ', which is very unlikely to be created on Israel's territory. It's talked about entirely severing responsibilities for Gaza, even as an occupying power. I suspect it's unlikely to mean Gaza will be allowed to rebuild it's ports and airport, and trade freely. But that's unlikely to work while some Palestinians and Arabs are determined to kill each other. One possible solution is to maybe put it under UN administration, similar to the Cypriot partition. That mostly works, but then the Greeks and Turks seem less determined to kill each other.

        1. SundogUK Silver badge

          Re: A rocket is a bomb

          "...for the Israeli war hawks that have long wanted the land Gaza currently occupies"

          Israel owned Gaza from 1967 to 2005. They voluntarily vacated it and gave it to the palestinians, with a fully functional economic base. Which the palestinians destroyed and then voted Hamas in to power 9 to 1.

          Israel isn't the problem here.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: A rocket is a bomb

            Israel owned Gaza from 1967 to 2005.

            No, they occupied it after capturing it from Egypt.

            They voluntarily vacated it and gave it to the palestinians, with a fully functional economic base.

            No, they vacated it as part of the Oslo Accords, and blockaded it ever since. Part of the Oslo Accords were also supposed to prevent settlement expansion, which Bibi promptly ignored. Now Bibi's back and doing what he does best, which is bombing stuff and creating more problems.

            Israel isn't the problem here.

            It, or some Israelis (and Jews) certainly are part of the problem. Others want peace. If you want to learn more about the politics though, look at the curious history of Hamas. Originally an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, it arguably became controlled opposition to counter the PLO. And as with other manufactured opposition groups, it quickly span out of control. But also consider..

            In September 1997, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hamas leader Khaled Mashal who lived in Jordan. Two Mossad agents entered Jordan on false Canadian passports and sprayed Mashal with a nerve agent on a street in Amman.

            Remember the outrage when Russians allegedly did similar in Winchester? Again, it's part of the hypocrisy and double standards that fuel these types of conflicts.

      2. Snowy Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: A rocket is a bomb

        I wonder if you idea would have worked in Ireland?

  9. SundogUK Silver badge

    His 'apology' is weaselly as shit. Very much assumes that Israel is going to break international law and commit war crimes from the get-go. Israel is the least likely country to do that.

  10. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Better late than never

    https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505

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