back to article Take Windows 11... please. Leaks confirm low numbers for Microsoft's latest OS

Windows 11 is consistently failing to capture hearts and devices, if recent figures are to be believed. First reported in WindowsCentral, active device usage of the operating system has apparently inched past the 400 million mark, according to an internal Microsoft document that leaked. This is far behind that of Windows 10 at …

  1. 43300 Silver badge

    Yep, agree with the article. W11 isn't that bad and can be made more palatable by configuration, but it offers no clear advantages over W10.

    What's the betting that next year will see a new version which removes some of the more annoying W11 changes (centred taskbar icons, fake-Teams, etc), and they push that hard as a W10 replacement?

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      I'd take the 'under' on that bet. First, Micros~1 would have to (tacitly) admit that their Holier-than-thou Millennial-infested "user-experience" thing that continues to foist unneeded and unwanted UI changes upon us "just because", is more holey than Holy. Second, Teams is their X, so they will continue to follow their oh-so-successful IE playbook for that one. And there is still the problem of TPM, which they will similarly not back away from. So from an odds-making point of view, I see this happening about as likely as me winning the lottery. Twice. On the same day. With two different sets of numbers.

      1. 43300 Silver badge

        My point was that the thing called 'Teams' which is preinstalled in W11 isn't Teams as everyone understands it though - it's a consumer chat program which nobody I've ever come across uses. Proper Teams has to be installed separately (and both appear on the start menu - really helpful!). Apart from confusing business users, it seems to serve no purpose whatsoever.

        The way they might well do the OS thing is a 'Windows 12' (or perhaps it's time for some wanky name - they've not had one since 'Vista') which rolls back on a few of the W11 things which get the most criticism, possibly including some of the hardware requirements, then not back down on the W10 end of support. Many organisations will then go for 'WIndows 12' as it seems the least-bad option. It is after all pretty much what happened with Winndows 10, where many businesses went to it from W7 to avoid 8 and 8.1. Not that W10 was exactly sparkling as released, of course - but it was better than 8 and 8.1.

        The hardware requirement which is actually the biggest issue with older machines is the CPU one, followed by the TPM version. Bog-standard desktops from Dell, Lenovo, etc have had at least TPM 1.2 and supported secure boot for ages. It's the CPU version and TPM 2 requirements which are going to get them scrapped as things stand.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Most of the businesses I deal with, primarily local/national Govt and associated institutions, replace their laptops after the 3 year on-site warranty expires, so odds are their current fleet is Windows 11 ready now. But only one that I visit has switched to Win11.

          "Other than occasional nags, Windows 11 has not been forced down the throats of users of Windows 10 in quite the same way." is probably the prime reason most home users have not switched, maybe MS can actually learn from their mistakes. Sometimes. Rarely.

          1. 43300 Silver badge

            Lots of organisations seem to leave things to the last minute! I try to avoid it as if something unexpected crops up (which is hardly unlikely with Windows) it would be all too easy to run out of time.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Downvoted this one mostly for the juvenile comments like "Micros~1" and then the bit about Millennials. Try to show a level of maturity commensurate within at least a decade of your age. But, also because the OP doesn't seem to understand what TPM is, but they're against it.

        1. Someone Else Silver badge

          "Micros~1" is the El Reg officially sanctioned euphemism for that (alleged) software company headquartered in Redmond, Washington. Which you'd know if you spent any time here. Please do try to keep up.

          You do know whose forum you have logged into don't you?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Apology accepted

        2. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

          I'm twitching quite hard resisting the urge to just reply to that with "OK Boomer".

          How about replying to, or up/down-voting comments based on the content rather than the writing style, instead of responding with snarky (anonymous) comments of your own? That would be more constructive all round, don't you think?

          It's 2023, and people seem to still not get "netiquette," even if it is a hideous portmanteau word from the 1990s.

          1. georgezilla

            It's okay, you don't have to resist. Because like many, you don't seem to understand that "okay Boomer" isn't actually the insult that you seen to think it is. And us Boomers just laugh and shake our heads at people that use it out of ignorance.

            Think about the things that you wouldn't have if it wasn't for us Boomers. Things like oh say ..................... the internet?

            1. MrDamage

              > Think about the things that you wouldn't have if it wasn't for us Boomers. Things like oh say ..................... the internet?

              This coming from the same generation that often has a Facebook status update of "How to open a pdf"

            2. Cagey Bee

              And PFAS - don't forget PFAS boomer! Recall might be getting tough but don't forget PFAS.

            3. Vic Not 20
              Mushroom

              There's nothing more boomer than welcoming being labelled a boomer...

              Nobody denies that boomers moved science and technology forward greatly, it's just unfortunate that they neglected the health of the planet and hence damaged the chances of survival of our species so badly in the process.

          2. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

            > It's 2023, and people seem to still not get "netiquette,"

            Where were you since 2016? It is spiraling downwards. So bad that old Ptahhotep, Confucius, Knigge and other ethical behaviour schooling are coming back again...

            But you got an upvote from me, 'cause you are not wrong per se...

        3. georgezilla

          So you're not actually old enough to have been around BEFORE there Was a Windows OS and have lived thru Microsoft's history?

          Or if you have, you also have memory issues?

          1. Someone Else Silver badge

            ...or, you really do like the taste of that Kool Aid...

          2. Version 1.0 Silver badge
            Windows

            It always seems that every "new" version of Windows makes people start to really appreciate using the older versions. Windows 8 made people start really liking Vista ... and now Windows 11 is making Windows 10 users more comfortable.

        4. MJI Silver badge

          MiICROS~1

          Run DIR in dos file name mode

      3. MrDamage

        I didn't expect to see "Millennials are killing the user interface" listed on today's bullshit bingo card.

        1. Someone Else Silver badge

          Bingo cards change with every new session...

      4. PeterM42
        Thumb Up

        TPM is no longer an issue......

        From an ISO, just run setup.exe /product server to upgrade.

        It doesn't install server, but does the upgrade!

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        And there is still the problem of TPM, which they will similarly not back away from.

        But they said the same about W10 and Secure Boot. When they decided that they couldn't get customers to move off W7 if they had to have UEFI they relented and the W7 to W10 updates ran fine on Legacy BIOS boxes.

    2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      FAIL

      Maybe it's the installer

      It would help if Windows 11 could actually install correctly. I have an Origin laptop running Windows 10 22H2 that has been trying to update itself to Windows 11 for years. It's an early 2021 with a 16-core Ryzen 16-Core CPU. (3950X I think, but I'm at work & it's at home) Occasionally I will let it try once again for shits & grins, most recently about a week ago. It takes roughly 15 hours to download & "install" Windows 11, and on the final reboot after a couple of in-process reboots, it mysteriously decides to revert the PC back to Windows 10. Not my problem to troubleshoot Microsoft's upgrader issues.

      If Microsoft can't even get the Windows 11 installer to work, well, maybe that's part of their problem.

      1. Lon24

        Re: Maybe it's the installer

        I'm a Linux user but I keep Windows on some machines as a dual boot "just in case". But frankly the days when third party apps were exclusively Windows have rapidly diminished so its mostly symbolic,

        I really can't see much difference between 10 & 11. It.s only a click or two to put the taskbar back where it belongs which was my major nag. I rather stupidly upgraded a Win10 laptop to 11 but the installer screwed up the MBR banishing Linux into the place that Microsoft keeps for any competition. OK I can re-Grub to bring back my default desktop but it's a faff. So in 2025 do I upgrade or ditch Win and donate the partitions back to Linux?

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Maybe it's the installer

          Virtual box works very nicely on modern CPUs and if you can live with the "please take my firstborn" Oracle license, even USB3 works

          1. GraXXoR Bronze badge

            Re: Maybe it's the installer

            Your "please take my firstborn" epithet made me chuckle more than is healthy for a man of my age.

          2. collinsl Silver badge

            Re: Maybe it's the installer

            If you're running Linux as your base OS use KVM instead. A proper virtualisation environment which doesn't need additional licensing and which supports hardware passthrough of basically anything.

            1. Grunchy Silver badge

              Re: Maybe it's the installer

              I haven’t tried KVM, but I am using QEMU with successful passthrough. I also set up a Hackintosh (despite there being zero use for that) but also a creaky old Solaris installation.

              I’m having way more fun just monkeying around with abandonware. I don’t care what Microsoft does anymore, they are irrelevant now.

              1. The Spider
                Thumb Up

                Re: Maybe it's the installer

                This, exactly. Originally the only choice was Micros˜˜01 as I didn't have enough dough for an Apple (although I was already building my own machines), but since Linux came along, I haven't needed either - unless forced to at work, and then for "compatibility" with other users rather than any real utility above or beyond that of an alternative.

                Having said all of this, maybe I should (as stated elsewhere) be grateful that the constant trials of early Windows prepared my mind and gave me experience of installation and maintenance which come in handy whenever I "do" something potentially (or factually) injurious with modern Linux. It's always good to have an "alternative".

        2. grprst

          Re: Maybe it's the installer

          You can restore the Grub menu from Windows in a faff-free way with a command like this:

          bcdedit /set {bootmgr} path \EFI\ubuntu\grubx64.efi

          Run from Windows cmd with administrator access. The path to Grub will vary depending on the Linux used, the line above works for Ubuntu and derivatives such as Mint.

        3. Chz

          Re: Maybe it's the installer

          The only thing that truly got my goat was hiding half the right-click menu behind yet another click. But like most of 11's annoyances it's fixed easily enough and doesn't even require much Clue to do.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

        4. TonyHoyle

          Re: Maybe it's the installer

          The double step right click is a PITA.. it annoys me more than a feature so minor really should - probably because I do a lot of right clicking. I lasted less than a day on win11 before rolling back due to that. It's just so pointless.. it worked before, why change it?

          Other things like the ads in the start menu I'm sure you can switch off, but staying on 10 means you don't have to.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Maybe it's the installer

            >it worked before, why change it?

            Because the muppets at Microsoft clearly don't recognise the word shapes "Cut", "Copy" and "Paste" to mean what they say, but can recognise some random ideograms as meaning "Cut", "Copy" and "Paste".

            Fundamentally, the change is all about self-centred attention seeking, to justify the ever increasing subscription Microsoft feels it is entitled to charge its customers.

      2. veti Silver badge

        Re: Maybe it's the installer

        Funny, but that was pretty much my experience of trying to "upgrade" from Windows 8.1 to 10. It did actually work, eventually, but the poor machine was never the same again, and eventually gave up the ghost about six months later.

        8.1 was a perfectly good system. 10 gave us back the start menu (which was nice), but introduced many new annoyances (no, Microsoft, I do not want your idea of news or weather in my taskbar or start menu, that's not what those things are for, and I certainly don't want to search from there). But the Internet hivemind had decided "8 bad, 10 good" - without even trying to distinguish between 8 and 8.1, of course - so here we are now, everyone convinced that 10 is the system of their dreams and it'll have to be pried from their cold dead keyboards.

        10 was successful because it followed a failure (8). 11 is a failure because it follows a success. It's all about perception, nothing more. There is no real reason to stick to 10, it's just the devil we know.

    3. RegGuy1 Silver badge
      Linux

      But can I get a refund?

      It would be nice to see a version that gives the user a choice: to keep the hardware they have just bought but ditch the virus, along with a process to recoup the cost of the unused software.

      I haven't used Windows for decades but seeing the amount of shit that seems to be loaded onto a new laptop I'm glad that my first task is always to format the entire drive. The feeling of total control Linux gives me is wonderful. (Using Firefox with AdBlock and Noscript helps too. :-)

      1. aerogems Silver badge

        Re: But can I get a refund?

        You can buy systems that come preloaded with Linux you know. Even from some of the major OEMs. I think Dell still offers some. You may have to look a little for them, but pretty sure they're still there. Think HP and Lenovo have one or two as well. And there are other companies that will build and sell you a system if you don't want to do it yourself.

        1. collinsl Silver badge

          Re: But can I get a refund?

          The major OEMs are very limited in how many different specs of device they offer without Windows preloaded because MS has licensing requirements with them which mean they have to comply with a very high % of devices having Windows otherwise they have to pay more per license, driving up the cost to the customer and driving customers to a competitor.

    4. andy gibson

      "no clear advantages over W10"

      I manage a lot of old hardware (by "old" I mean core i5s and i7s with 8gb of RAM dating back from around 2016 that I'm not replacing because it works fine) and I've found that at start-up Windows 11 uses 1Gb less RAM than 10.

      It also comes on and closes down much faster than 10.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: "no clear advantages over W10"

        "It also comes on and closes down much faster than 10."

        I suspect they have just increased what is dumped to disk such that a shutdown/startup is even more of a hibernation than a shutdown than Win10 does. Is it notably faster at doing a restart, which, at least in Win10 is a proper shutdown/startup, reinitialising all the hardware etc.

        Revealing that a standard boot to idle uses 1GB less RAM is useful info though. Clearly a lot less cruft being loaded by default at boot time.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: "no clear advantages over W10"

          >Revealing that a standard boot to idle uses 1GB less RAM is useful info though. Clearly a lot less cruft being loaded by default at boot time.

          Not necessarily, it may simply not be pre-allocating so much RAM in anticipation of usage.

      2. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

        "core i5s and i7s with 8gb of RAM dating back from around 2016"

        I also manage quite a few machines that fit this description, and though we have been able to do clean installs of W11 on them without problems by bypassing the hardware requirements, we have not been able to get them bypass the requirements again to do feature updates (from 21H2 to 22H2, for example). As far as we can tell, we will have to wipe them and reinstall every few years when the version they are on loses support. This wouldn't be a huge deal if there weren't a few hundred of these machines. I'm hoping there is a way and that we just haven't stumbled upon it yet. Does anyone else here have experience with this?

      3. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: "no clear advantages over W10"

        I've found that at start-up Windows 11 uses 1Gb less RAM than 10.

        See what happens when you no longer have to stuff IE into Ring 0?

      4. veti Silver badge

        Re: "no clear advantages over W10"

        Every new Windows system launches and shuts down quickly. Then they gradually slow down as cruft gets added through updates.

        When 8.1 was new, I was delighted that it would give me a usable desktop in less than 20 seconds from a cold start. It made a welcome change from Vista, which would often take 20 minutes to get to that stage (no exaggeration, I actually timed it more than once). But by the time it finally obsoleted (only ten months ago, in fact), it was up to over a minute. I'm sure Win 11 won't be so snappy in five years' time, either.

    5. katrinab Silver badge
      Windows

      The centered task-bar and fake Teams are both things you can fix post-install.

      However, if you like your taskbar somewhere other than the bottom of the screen, that isn't such an easy fix.

    6. worldtraveller2

      They have taken a first step to boosting uptake numbers by allowing the bypassing some of the requirements, such as 7th Gen processors, which quite frankly was a rather arbitrary choice in the first instance!

    7. navarac Silver badge

      Similar thoughts. It is basically Windows 10.1. Unless you are happy with Ads and Edge being trust in front of you, I'll just stay with Windows 10.0 (secondary to Linux for gaming in my case).

    8. Alan Hope

      Re centred taskbar icons - it's a yes from me.

      I actually liked W10 a lot, but my new PC has a 43 inch 4k screen and having taskbar buttons left-justified are a pain from the mouse-movement point of view.

      So I like them centred, my muscle memory has quickly adapted, and I wouldn't go back now.

      Maybe MS foresaw the rise of bigger screens.

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: Re centred taskbar icons - it's a yes from me.

        Well, half. My gripe: Centered Startmenu is fine, but the area left and right of the taskbar buttons is unused. They should have gone the full way to shrink the taskbar horizontally as well, only as big as needed, giving more space to programs, occupy less of the screen. And transparent (which can be fixed with TranslucentTB.)

        Windows 11 is the first Windows version since Windows 95 where I actually use Taskbar-Auto-Hide.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Re centred taskbar icons - it's a yes from me.

        It would be more useful if they fixed the Windows button in the centre of the taskbar, so it doesn't move when you open more applications; better still allow it to be placed vertically down one side of a wide screen. But I suppose they are now expecting users to use the Windows button and cursor keys to navigate the toolbar rather than mouse etc.

    9. Keith Langmead

      Binning off the Toolbar option

      For me the big deal breaker is them removing Toolbars, suggesting that no one uses them even though when in testing LOADS of responses from users said they did! If you use RemoteApp it can be near seemless when used with a toolbar on Win10, but without the toolbar functionlity they've made RemoteApp use far more clunky in Win11.

  2. keithpeter Silver badge
    Windows

    Costs

    Quote from OA...

    "Which, in a nutshell, is the problem. Windows 11 is simply OK. There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements."

    In the case that existing hardware can't run Windows 11, many smaller public sector organisations are faced with significant replacement costs. Budgets are under pressure at the moment and that is likely to get worse.

    1. TReko Silver badge

      Re: Costs

      The odd thing is why Microsoft has forced these hardware requirements.

      Many systems capable of running Win 11 are "not compatible". Yes, I know one can hack an installation, but why force these requirements for no reason. It will lead to a lot of e-waste.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Costs

        I think because they want their "security" coprocessor, pluton, to be in the machines that install windows, so they can have more control over everything the computer does, like google with android and google play services. That way you can't block ads, or refuse updates, etc.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

    The Microsoft account requirement gets a pretty hard 'Nope!' from me. Yes there are technically ways to circumvent this, but Microsoft has gone out of its way to try to play whack-a-mole with these, so it's clear where their intentions for the future of the OS and our role in that lie.

    1. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

      On the Pro version this isn't difficult to avoid, although they don't make it obvious - select that it's a work computer, then domain join (it doesn't actually join it to a domain!) then it prompts for creation of a local account.

      I did notice recently that the latest W11 installer stopped and refused to go any further if it didn't have an internet connection. Didn't have time to look for workarounds but there ay well be some.

      1. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        I did notice recently that the latest W11 installer stopped and refused to go any further if it didn't have an internet connection

        Yet another reason to avoid it like Ebola.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          Rather like when Visual Studio stops building if it can resolve an external NuGet package because you've disconnected your network.

        2. Chz

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          Given the likely security flaws out of the box, I'd think it wanting an internet connection at setup was a good thing. One of the first things it does is patch itself.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

            Maybe not so much for home users, unless the inbuilt firewall is already active before it tries to connect externally. I remember re-installing XP for a friend and forgot his home PC wasn't part of a network with a firewall like mine was. His PC was infected before the install finished because I forgot to unplug the NIC before installing. Had to start again, this time with the NIC unplugged.

      2. DoContra

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        There is a workaround, which I don't quite remember (easily found on your favourite search engine): Do the magic incantation to obtain a CMD window on the installer (Alt-F10?), run the magic command, and presto! The other, potentially easier way around it (and many more nonos) is to create your bootable media from a sufficiently official ISO using Rufus, which can (at your command) add that workaround and a couple more (TPM/Secure Boot bypass).

      3. cmdrklarg

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        1. Keep PC unplugged from Internet

        2. When Setup is started do a Shift-F10 for a command prompt.

        3. Enter OOBE\BYPASSNRO and then Enter.

        4. PC will reboot; during OOBE you will be able to choose "I don't have internet" and "Continue with limited setup" again.

        5. ????

        6. PROFIT!

        (YMMV, some restrictions apply, see your dealer for details)

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          Wow, good job I only use Linux. I'm obviously not smart enough to install windows anymore

          1. aerogems Silver badge

            Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

            Let me guess, you've only just been converted to the Church of Linux? Most people go through the honeymoon phase where they have to find a way to bring it up in every single conversation, and drive everyone around them batshit crazy in the process, but then grow out of it by the end of the first year and reach a point where they don't need to advertise the fact the fact that they use Linux. They're secure enough in their person that they don't need others to validate their choice, and it's simply enough that it works for them. So, either you're still fairly new to using Linux, or you seem to have gotten stuck on the journey of emotional maturity.

            Besides, installing Linux these days is nothing special. Try going back and installing Gentoo circa 2001-2002 where you still had to do a chroot install and compile everything and use a text mode fdisk to partition your drive. Let me know when you've had to manually add modeline values to your xf86config file to get a monitor offset correct. Most Linux users today don't even know how to compile their own kernel, or anything else, from source. They rely on binary packages put out specifically for their distribution. It's not some big badge of honor to run Linux when someone else did all the work. Shit, I once wrote a script that would automate pulliing the up-to-the-second CVS source for KDE and then start compiling it for me using my custom set of compiler flags. Sometimes I was even able to fix little bugs in the code that caused the compiler to bomb out. Didn't always fix the logic errors in the code, but it would compile! I actually knew how to use pipes and redirects at the command line, and how to use the command line period. I'd occasionally make edits to my init.d scripts -- yes, yes, I know most distros have replaced it with systemd now, but same difference. That's not even all that impressive really. It's not even the bare minimum that should be expected out of someone who runs around acting like they're hot shit because they use Linux. I was barely considered more than a noob. Linux these days is just Windows by another name. Everything is handed to you, and they even go out of their way to ape Windows and macOS so people don't have to deal with the shock of the new. I used to change window managers at least once a month, because I'd probably get bored with one by then. I even made contributions to a few open source projects. Someone I know noticed my name in the credits for some code editor I had completely forgotten I contributed anything to. No idea if they're still using the syntax rule files I submitted, but I guess they never removed my name from the credits. And again, this doesn't even qualify me as anything special, unless you compare me to the modern Linux user who would probably stare blankly if I asked them to give me a directory listing from the terminal.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

              ...We used to *dream* about a cardboard box..

              c.f. "Secret Policeman's ball"

              1. Kristian Walsh

                Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

                ..that’s Monty Python’s “Four Yorkshiremen” sketch, not the Secret Policemen’s Ball.

                1. Tim Hines

                  Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

                  Originally from "At Last the 1948 Show" with Marty Feldman.

                  1. ChrisElvidge Bronze badge

                    Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

                    ITYF originally ISIRTA

            2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

              >Besides, installing Linux these days is nothing special

              ThatWasTheJoke.jpeg, I've been installing Linux since SLS and the boot and root floppies and you had to write your own xorg.conf modelines and hope you didn't blow up your CRT getting phase correct

              Nothing was as opaque as that list of Windows instructions

              1. tux_is_god

                Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

                I miss those days. Now its so easy, everyone and his/her dog can have linux running. Where's the fun in that?

            3. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

              >installing Linux these days is nothing special. Try going back and installing Gentoo circa 2001-2002...

              I'm glad installing an OS these days isn't anything like installing Unix on a new system back in the 1980's.

              It really is quite pleasant being able to install a batch of systems with just a few mouse clicks.

              The Linux install had to become like Windows, likewise the UI/UX; if it hadn't it would have an even smaller marketshare and almost certainly be restricted to servers.

        2. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          Also for minimal install don't forget the "English (World)" setting. See https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-clean-install-windows-11/

      4. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        Apparently, there's some magic key combination that brings up a terminal where you can tell it to continue without being online by entering some runic command that you just have to know exists. How's that for "User Experience"?

        (I looked into this after setting up a new laptop for my wife, and then trying to remove any link it had made to my microsoft account which somehow exists linked to my personal email address, despite having no memory of creating it)

    2. Marty McFly Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

      It all has to do with monetizing the user after the sale. Create a Microsoft account just to install, now they know who you are. Send you a text to your cell for MFA, now they have hooked in your mobile device as well.

      All for a better "advertising experience" of things you don't want.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        >Send you a text to your cell for MFA

        Not sure about this one, I've already used one of my three legacy send a code to my phone/email account login allowance, it seems now I should be using the Microsoft Authenticator app on my phone, which if not set up in the right way the authorisation credentials won't be transferrable to another phone in the event of the loss of my current phone...

      2. Grunchy Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        “It all has to do with monetizing the user after the sale. Create a Microsoft account just to install, now they know who you are. Send you a text to your cell for MFA, now they have hooked in your mobile device as well.”

        Seems that Microsoft has become a peddler of “shitware.”

        1. tux_is_god

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          "Microsoft has become", it's always been that.

    3. aerogems Silver badge

      Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

      Serious question: Why is it acceptable for Google and Apple to require an account to use their mobile OS, and Apple requiring an account to use most of the functionality in their desktop OS, but it's not OK for Microsoft to do the same thing?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        It's not. People only accept it because they lock the ability to install anything behind their app stores — yes technically Google allows sideloading but not in a way most people would be capable of. It's also implemented relatively invisibly. Once you're logged in, you're always logged in on that device.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        Serious question: Why is it acceptable for Google to let you use Android without an account and Linux requiring an account to use it, but it's not OK for Microsoft to do the same thing?

        1. 43300 Silver badge

          Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

          Linux* doesn't require an account which is tied to any identifiable individual - you can give the local account(s) any name you want. You can with Windows too (currently, at least) although they put obstacles in the way.

          Android is different because it doesn't have a concept of multiple user accounts on the same device - so the single account is either anonymous (but has limitations), or is tied to an identifiable user through a gmail address.

          *Referrring to common desktop distros here, not necessarily commercial systems based on Linux.

      3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        FWIW, Android will happily accept multiple users for the Playstore. I think most data grabbing (location, SSIDs, location, etc.) is done for aggregation for selling elsewhere, e.g. in search suggesting when certain places are busiest. Google goes a long way to force people to use Chrome, Maps, et al. where accepting ads is part of the T&Cs to be able to use them in a way that the device account does not.

      4. georgezilla

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        Well you assume that because some people use them, that it's okay. Here's a clue: It's NOT okay! But there are alternatives. And it's easier to start with something that's NOT from Microsoft or Apple. Then deal with Google.

      5. Piro

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        You don't have to have a Google account to use an Android phone.

        If you don't want to use their store or any sync functionality to Google (of course, how would it know where to store your data otherwise?), then you don't have to use an account.

        If you're happy with local contacts, sideloading using F-Droid and the like, you can go without using a Google account.

    4. thondwe

      Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

      Hardware reqs are disappointing - two kids laptops - OK bit old HP kit, but do have TPM - it's just their i5 CPUs which are missing some obscure instruction which means it's not on the MS list

    5. garwhale

      Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

      I have a PC I inherited from work (with Windows 10). Unfortunately, I can't delete the inherited work Microsoft account. It demands I use my work email, which no longer exists …

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        Wait, you inherited a PC from work and it was NOT formatted-all-data-nuked? Get an Windows 10 USB stick and install fresh, preferably do a full-zero-overwrite, which format does when you untick "quick". Do it to protect yourself too, cause if company data is still there and something weird comes along you can be sure NOTHING is on there. You can do that full-format when booted from a Windows install stick using "repair computer" and "command line" (diskpart + format), or use gparted live etc. Don't wait, do it, nuke the data with overwrite.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements.

        So is it still joined to the work domain and you do not have local administrator privileges?

        If this is the case then your only option is to do a full wipe and reinstall - the W10 installer will guide you through this.

        If you have local admin privileges then you can create new local user accounts (admin and limited) and via the “advanced system settings” > User Profiles > Settings. delete the old work profile, which will probably be listed as unknown user.

  4. Mishak Silver badge

    My experience so far

    "Forced" back into using Windows (Mac user) in a new position, and the machine came with Windows 11.

    1) There is no control to change the direction of the scroll wheel on the mouse. It can be done, but requires a registry entry to be manually changed - I do not have admin rights, so I have to get support to do this, and it needs setting for each USB port it's plugged into (on the machine, through a hub). All this needs it a control adding to the mouse settings :-(

    2) Talking of USB, it keeps "forgetting" that I have my KVM connected via a USB C hub so I have one plug to pull when I go mobile. The machine is normally run with the lid closed and in a vertical stand in the office, but this means I have to keep taking it out to wake it up so it re-enumerates the USB devices.

    3) Connected to the above, the machine keeps running its battery down as it receives power over USB PD through the hub that keeps being dropped.

    Other than that, I've not really found it to be too much of a pain to use - but it's not great that USB still seems to be an issue for Windows.

    1. hoola Silver badge

      Re: My experience so far

      I have an OEM docking station and Windows 10 still "loses" certain audio devices periodically. More recently I have come to the conclusions this is linked to the silent Teams updates. Somehow the update renders the device (from a monitor that is the same manufacturer as the laptop & dock) in a failed state.

      The only way to recover is to clear all the devices from the Registry and reboot.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: My experience so far

        >I have come to the conclusions this is linked to the silent Teams updates

        On Android teams updates remove the ability to call 911 so you're ahead just losing desktop audio

    2. Peter X

      Re: My experience so far

      Linux user using Windows for the first time (properly anyway) in years. I don't completely hate it... winget is a bit shit when compared with anything on Linux, but good considering it's a Microsoft product.

      One thing (aside from not being able to move the taskbar from the bottom to the side of the screen) that I find irritating is:

      1. Finding the setting to change the key repeat rate was bloody hard; the old control panel is hidden away and the new settings thing is... sometimes lacking.

      2. Once I found it (checks notes... oh yeah, Super+R "control keyboard"), it turns out that the repeat-rate is already at it's fastest. However, I'd like it just a smidge faster!

      So after Googling, it seems I can change the keyboard repeat rate, but the GUI keeps such things within reasonable limits. But maybe a bit too reasonable? Anyway, I can change it but this involved faffing around with the registry.

      Whats annoying is, I'm fairly certain that Cygwin allowed access to the WIndows registry via the file-system? If MS supported that, then I could easily manage it. As it is, I can't be arsed... making the key-repeat-rate a smidge faster just isn't worth the time Googling this, and then backing up my registry and all that crap.

      Otherwise though, Windows 11 is... a lot less shit than previous versions. I like that OpenSSH is on it. I like that Windows Terminal is... not terrible.

      Windows still takes for ever to update anything though... why is it sooooo slow at updating?!!! And even winget installing anything is slow.

      Still, I don't like to complain. Their terminal font is quite nice!

      1. DoContra

        Re: My experience so far

        Haven't daily-driven windows for a loooong while, although I do have to support Windows users (and keep a couple Windows VMs around). I can see how many things in Windows 11 are deal-breakers to many people (esp. the hardware requirements), but for me Windows 11 is juuuust better enough to make it worthwhile over 10.

        Otherwise though, Windows 11 is... a lot less shit than previous versions. I like that OpenSSH is on it. I like that Windows Terminal is... not terrible.

        Yup! OpenSSH has been available (with the client installed by default!) in Windows 10 since sometime between 1804 and 1907 (can't quite remember the exact version). The terminal emulator is very usable and is available for Windows 10 from the Microsoft store. The new-style control panel is much better than in Windows 10 (to the point where calling it usable isn't that much of a stretch) and FWIW the GUI looks/feels a lot prettier to me. But the killer feature of Windows 11 (one shared by a colleague of mine who upgraded to Windows 10 ~2 years after 7 fell out of support) is tab support on Explorer.

        ( And both 10 and 11 have a just-good-enough NFS client :) )

  5. MrGrumpy

    Windows 10 - Last version

    Well that's what they said, now we've got to do a upgrade, for little benefit, when we have better things to do. FFS.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WTF would you install win 11

    it's a GUI fucking mess, rammed with kernel level spyware and cloud shit.

    win 10 is barely bearable as they keep ramming the same shit into it.

    a lot of which is un-installable garbage

    1. karlkarl Silver badge

      Re: WTF would you install win 11

      Indeed. I look at my non-tech colleagues and family members struggling with Windows 11 and feel so sorry for them.

      Its actually tragic to see people who have worked hard with computers most of their life being left dealing with this defective crap. Its an absolute moral failing. One that I feel transcends the whims of companies like Microsoft and should actually be protected against at a government level.

      Even something as mundane as my father using Microsoft Money 97 for his finances has been taken away from him and there is literally no replacement that isn't a foul cesspit of monetization and spyware.

      This isn't sustainable.

    2. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

      Re: WTF would you install win 11

      Nested-V for AMD, and robocopy has /iorate now for a real control of speed.

      Wouldn't have upgraded if nested-V would be in Windows 10, like in Insider build 19645. A annoying "political" decision.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: WTF would you install win 11

        Intel: " And nested virtualization is only supported on Intel CPUs with virtualization (VT-x) and Extended Page Tables (EPT)."

        AMD "Nested virtualization is available on Windows 10 build 19636 and later."

        [ https://petri.com/how-to-enable-nested-virtualization-in-hyper-v/ ]

        Personally, given WS2019 is a supported OS for Thinkpads, if I really needed Nest-V etc. I would probably install that rather than W11...

        But agree MS have form going back decades in making political decisions on what does and doesn't get included in a still in support OS.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Re: WTF would you install win 11

          Well, it isn't a Thinkpad, it is a Ryzen 5950x gaming machine which was installed in 2012 (by that time i7-2500k@4.8 GHz) with Windows 7 and ever since upgraded through all Windows versions and quite some Hardware changes. Too much stuff in there to make it new. And a Thinkpad is by far not flexible enough regarding the Hardware, and with that much Hardware it would look more like an Osborne 1.

          Server 2019 does not support Nested-V on AMD. I forgot to specify AMD here, Nested-V for Intel is available since Server 2016.

          I was there in June 2020 when the first Windows 10 insider version appeared to enable Nested-V. The "windowsserver.uservoice.com" Feedback thread has been deleted by MS tough, but the two threads on the AMD forum are still there. Be aware that there is no official Windows 10 version now supporting this on AMD, as it is stuck at 19045.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: WTF would you install win 11

            Thanks for the feedback; I really need to increase the priority of playing around with my AMD systems as one of the reasons for putting WS2019 on to an AMD Thinkpad was to permit the running up of complete WS instances which contained Hyper-V environments for diagnostic/investigative purposes.

            Aside there was nothing wrong with luggable computers, I remember my Compaq Portable… - and people today get upset because their laptop weighs more than 1kg…

  7. eswan

    "...there were those, after all, who raged at the imposition of the Start Menu over the Program Manager of old."

    And progman.exe was included as an option in Windows 95, 98, NT4, 2000, and XP upto SP2.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Which, in a nutshell, is the problem.

    "Windows 11 is simply OK."

    It's not just "simply OK". There are actually a number of nice improvements under the hood, for example a single UX which mostly works in both desktop and touch mode (vs WIndows 10's abhorrent dual interface mode with a touch UI that was completely mangled from what it was on Windows 8.1). Or the lower memory requirements (Windows 11 performs admirably well on an old 4GB Dell venue Pro tablet where previous Windows versions were almost unusable, and that includes Windows 7 which was shit on touch devices anyways).

    Windows 11 is also the first Windows where the change between tablet, laptop and multi-monitor desktop mode using a convertible now works seamlessly, i.e. Windows finally remembers where (application) windows are located in each mode, and puts them back.

    "There's nothing particularly wrong with it except for its hardware requirements."

    Oh, there is a lot more wrong than just the idiotic hard block of "unsupported" hardware (most of which, once the blocks are circumvented, run Windows 11 just fine). There are numerous other issues, such as the online requirements, the monetization, the ads, and the constant nag screens and notifications. All which are only getting worse with each release.

    And then there's fact that long-standing Windows problems still exist in Windows 11. Like the fact that updates are still a regular, convoluted and time consuming shit show, bringing even fast systems to a crawl where other operating systems do them in one simple quick swoop or even in the background. That this mess often also ends up breaking important functionality is just the cherry on top.

    The problem is that the good things in Windows 11 still pale to all the negatives. And that doesn't even include Microsoft's chosen path of more ads, more nags, more monetization, more subscriptions.

  9. Tron Silver badge

    W12 will be arriving soon.

    W11 with some of the crappier design choices removed. Have people forgotten? Most versions of Windows have been bollocks.

    1. spuck

      Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

      It seems like Microsoft is keeping a consistent track record of doing a decent job on alternating versions of their consumer OS:

      Win 95 Ok

      Win ME No good

      Win XP Ok

      Win Vista No good

      Win 7 Ok

      Win 8 No good

      Win 10 Ok

      Win 11 ?

      Win 12 ?

      It's kinda like Star Trek movies...

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

        You skipped Windows 98 and Windows 2000, which are Ok as well. I let skipping Windows 8.1 slide, which was Ok too, though not as Ok as Win10.

        1. PhilipN Silver badge

          Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

          98 then 98 SE. Fits the pattern.

        2. milliemoo83

          Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

          Win2K wasn't a consumer edition.

      2. aerogems Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

        Why do people keep posting this nonsense? Tell me you never actually used any of these versions without saying it.

        Win95 - Everyone called it a poor man's MacOS at the time, saying how Microsoft shamelessly copied Apple (which, frankly, they did). And it still sucked if you ran even a single 16-bit app.

        Win98 - So bad they had to release a second version

        Win98SE - Aside from FAT32 making it into a non-OEM version of Windows, there wasn't really that much different about it because it was still of the DOS lineage

        WinME - The only thing I've ever seen people complain about with ME is that Microsoft moved around things like control panel icons

        XP - Everyone HATED XP when it launched. They called it the Fisher Price OS, complained about how slow it was, people bitched because all their old DOS games wouldn't work since the OS was enforcing the policy of apps requesting data from hardware via drivers, everyone was making claims about monopoly abuse because of the Windows firewall... Let's also not forget that, literally -- that's not hyperbole, I am being literal with my use of the word literally -- literally for about the first two years of XP's existence there was a new RCE CVE for either IE6 or XP every. week. It took until SP2 for it to finally stabilize a little to where it was usable for most people. Of course this was still the golden age of malware, which was helped along by a lot of shortcuts Microsoft took to try to win the browser wars. For pretty much the entire XP lifespan, everyone had a collection of at least 2-3 different malware remover apps that would live along side the AV program.

        Vista - Was a very important release. Mac OS X was eating Windows' lunch at the time, and without Vista laying a lot of very important groundwork, Windows and Office was in significant danger. Vista rewrote the GUI as a DirectX app, allowing for full hardware acceleration, there was significant work done on improving security, the process scheduler learned the difference between dual-core and dual-CPU (a subtle, but oh-so-important difference), and big chunks of the under the hood components of the OS were ripped out and replaced with modern replacements.

        Win 7 - Just a warmed over Vista, though it did have some improvements to security and the process scheduler. It also refined UAC a bit to make it a bit less obnoxious. Granted the whole point of UAC was to be obnoxious and make people stop and think about whether they really wanted to do something that could cause problems. They maybe overshot the mark a little with Vista, and 7 was maybe a bit of an undershot.

        Win 8 - Another very important release. For starters, for all the talk about how bloated Windows is, no one seems to give Microsoft any credit for shrinking the size of Windows by 2-3GB during the Windows 8 years. Sure, it was part of a misguided effort to shoehorn the OS onto low spec tablets and laptops that didn't pan out, but they still debloated the OS quite a bit and no one gives them credit for it. There was significant work done improving security on Windows 8, the process scheduler started to learn more about things like CPUs with more than 2-cores. For the first time ever Windows had a search system that didn't completely suck. The file copy/move dialog box got a makeover and the ability to pause/resume transfers, and the task manager also got a major facelift. I'm not going to defend the decision to try to cram a mobile UI onto a desktop system, but the OS taken as a whole was excellent.

        Win 10 - Had a pretty bumpy rollout, but after a few years of plugging away at it, it got to be pretty good. The Creators Update is probably where things started to turn the corner with Win 10. Has a lot of important security updates added, even if a lot of them are switched off by default. While I dislike the forced installation of updates as much as everyone else, I do recognize that ever since Microsoft started imposing updates on people, the number of issues that can be traced directly to known security exploits in Windows has gone down significantly.

        Win 11 - Using the incomplete 10X UI was certainly an... interesting choice, and I'm not sure what they were smoking when they came up with the supported hardware list, but the OS as a whole is quite good. It's the only version that understands the big.LITTLE core layout on Intel CPUs, a lot of those Windows 10 security features are now switched ON by default, and it adds a few more. Everyone whines about the superficial crap, like the icons being centered on the taskbar, but honestly, after about a week you stop even noticing unless you're one of those people who gets hard by holding a grudge over stupid shit.

        Win 12 - We still know next to nothing about it, so too early to say, but odds are it'll be more of the same. Improved security, refinement of key under-the-hood components, and a lot of people mewling because Microsoft moved a button by 1px.

        1. FIA Silver badge

          Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

          Vista - Was a very important release. Mac OS X was eating Windows' lunch at the time, and without Vista laying a lot of very important groundwork, Windows and Office was in significant danger. Vista rewrote the GUI as a DirectX app, allowing for full hardware acceleration, there was significant work done on improving security, the process scheduler learned the difference between dual-core and dual-CPU (a subtle, but oh-so-important difference), and big chunks of the under the hood components of the OS were ripped out and replaced with modern replacements

          ..unfortunately, they left a global lock in the compositing window manager, which meant window re-draws were done in a round-robbin fashion and a single rogue app could lead to the desktop appearing to hang. Also, the more windows you opened, the slower it got.

          So if you had a nice GPU vista appeared really slow.

          I'll also add another voice of support for the MiniNT efforts around the Windows 8 time too. The reality is you could install Windows 7 and 10 on very similar hardware.

          Win 11 - Using the incomplete 10X UI was certainly an... interesting choice, and I'm not sure what they were smoking when they came up with the supported hardware list

          That's a future decision, from Win 11 onwards you can assume a base level of hardware, it's just a pain point to give them a newer baseline hardware level. I expect we'll see the implications of this a couple of releases down the line.

      3. Elongated Muskrat Silver badge

        Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

        They tried to trick us by breaking the pattern of "odd numbers OK, even numbers bad" by skipping Windows nein nine.

        BTW, Windows 95 was the shite one, and Windows 98 was the "better" one, before the bug-ridden mess of Windows chronic fatigue syndrome ME.

    2. nowheredevel

      Re: W12 will be arriving soon.

      Hopefully they'll remove some of Windows 11's less favorable features, however, considering the plausible rumors of Microsoft's obsession with consumer AI I fear that Windows 12 will be a cloud-based data-stealing nightmare.

  10. mickaroo

    I Run Linux Mint Mate

    Why should I give a Xit...?

  11. Fred W

    Two fairly simple mods would convince me to upgrade.

    First, fire most of the UI/UX designers that fsck around making changes seemingly just to justify their continued employment.

    Second, provide a Get-out-of-my-face button at the first screen presented when starting an upgrade. Go ahead and play net-nanny and warn of all the dire consequences that will indubitably befall upon the fool clicking the button, but then just install. My nearly decade-old multi-core, 3-point-something GHZ processor and 16 GB DRAM is more than adequate to handle my SW development needs even though it's not on the list of processors blessed by Microsoft. No TPM or secure boot? Nobody other than me on my network to get it infected.

  12. aerogems Silver badge
    Flame

    <Shrug>

    I'm not really sure why articles like this are really necessary. They just seem to be fodder for people to prove their e-penis length is longer because... yeah, I don't know either. Something to do with the bandwagon logical fallacy. Windows 10 support ends soon, so people will either move on or we'll start seeing an uptick in malware related issues like spam and botnets.

    Windows 11 is a fine OS, even if Microsoft made a few... odd... decisions with its development. The fact that they still haven't been able to come up with a good explanation for the bizarre system requirements, where it's like they just threw a bunch of CPU models into a bag, and pulled them out raffle style, and those were the ones that were supported. Then there's the use of the 10X UI, which would be fine, welcome even, if they hadn't basically abandoned it about 75-80% of the way through development. Microsoft hasn't really shown the necessary discipline to overhaul the UI since Windows95/NT4. Windows 10X/11 isn't really any different.

    But those two bizarre decisions aside, it's a solid OS. For all the whinging about the start menu or icons being centered by default, you get used to it after about a week and then stop thinking about it. Look past the superficial and there are a number of improvements, like improved security, and a process scheduler that understands the big.LITTLE core design of Intel's 12th gen and later CPUs. Sure, it's basically a warmed over Win10, but for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth you hear from some quarters about how Microsoft moved something 2px to the left and it's the end of the world as we know it, the fact that it's basically more of the same should be a good thing, but somehow it's a bad thing. I just wish some of the people who will make the inevitable "I'm going to switch to Linux" comments would actually follow through. Then when they come crawling back, they'll be appropriately humbled. Or, if they find Linux meets their needs better than Windows... I don't give a shit, as long as they stop complaining all the time. I really don't give a flying fig if you are perfectly happy with your 8088 running CP/M. As long as you're not bleating endlessly about how CP/M doesn't do X, Y and/or Z and you're going to switch to Minix. Shit or get off the pot already!

    <End Rant>

    1. NewModelArmy

      Re: <Shrug>

      I think there are multiple aspects which are in the backs of peoples mind, but the annoyance of the day is what they type.

      For me, it was the telemetry, the shenanigans of forcing you to upgrade to W10 even when you clicked the "Close Window" X taken as wanting to upgrade, the back porting of telemetry to W7 and W8, the ads in your menu etc., the forced software not needed, the bad UI design, and all the changes, the constant cockups upgrading, losing the ability to print, losing data, nearly forcing you to have an online account (non tech people may not be able to circumvent), with the latest that you must have TPM v2 which means new hardware for many people at the time of an economic downturn etc.

      I am sure that there are more such as moving to a subscription model for stuff etc. .

      I run Linux as my main OS and don't have any of those issues, apart from Wayland being buggy, but then there is X11. I have choices galore in Linux for the front end etc.

      Maybe people say what they do because in contrast to Linux, Microsoft treats it customers like c*nts.

      1. aerogems Silver badge

        Re: <Shrug>

        Well, good luck with the telemetry. Apple does it, Linux does it... If you have a cell phone... well, you probably don't even want to know.

        The various tricks used to try to get people to upgrade is definitely fair, but also has nothing to do with the OS. The "ads" people go on about are actually quite a bit less than Apple, but for some reason people don't seem to complain about those. I always find that curious. But it's kind of a tradeoff. They're giving the OS away for free, which is good because it means more people can be on a version of the OS that is actively supported with security updates. The number of issues related to people not patching their systems has basically fallen off a cliff since Windows 10 with it's forced update policy. Still, software engineers at Microsoft aren't going to work for free, so Microsoft needs to make up that sales revenue somehow, and that seems to be by selling ads, which is bad. I'd like to see a paid SKU that removes all the ads, but it probably won't ever happen. On balance, a few ads is probably the lesser evil compared to dealing with all the shit that comes from unpatched systems.

        I also don't get the bit about the online account. You need one to use your iPhone or Android phone. You need one to post here. You are basically forced into making one if you buy a Mac... No one complains about any of those, but when Microsoft does it, the entire village comes out with their pitchforks and torches. It's fascinating to me from an anthropological perspective.

        Granted it may be beyond the ability of some to bypass the requirements check on Win 11, it's not really a requirement... yet.

        But, if we're being honest and fair, installing and using Linux is probably beyond most users. It's come a long ways since the 90s when I used it as my primary desktop for a few years, but if things don't work perfectly the first time, a lot of users would be hopelessly lost trying to troubleshoot. My problem with Linux is they can't just leave well enough alone. Every time some major subsystem gets to like 80-90% complete, they decide it's time to just rip the entire thing out for this new alpha level (and that's being generous most times) replacement. I'm amazed X11 lasted as long as it did without someone trying to create a replacement. I suppose until 3D graphics cards came along, there wasn't a lot of point. Trying to shoehorn 3D support into X11 was always a very ugly hack because X11 just wasn't designed with that sort of thing in mind. You really needed something like Wayland that can be built from the ground up to support it. But X11 is still about the only time I've ever seen the Linux community try so hard to use what they had instead of throw it out and create something new. I guess eventually they reached the point where trying to pound the square X11 peg into the round hole that is supporting 3D graphics was more painful than creating a new windowing system.

        1. Old Used Programmer

          Re: <Shrug>

          As regards "most people can't install Linux"... The Raspberry Pi folks have a solution to that one. It's still in beta, but if you update the EEPROM on Pi4B/Pi400, just put in a blank uSD card, connect to the internet and you'll get prompted to install the OS. While that feature will--I'm sure--be in the Pi5, I don't know if it'll be there right out of the box. Still, it'll probably be in the EEPROM as it comes off the production line within the next year. (And, if it comes to that, the Pi5 is probably enough machine for 90-95% of all users. Had a chance to play with one over the weekend.)

        2. Alumoi Silver badge

          Re: <Shrug>

          They're giving the OS away for free

          No, they are NOT giving it away for free. The price is included in the total if you buy a new computer.

        3. NewModelArmy

          Re: <Shrug>

          If a person were to implement the tracking, control and subversive tactics used by Microsoft, against their partner, the person would be seen as an abuser.

          Microsoft's behaviour is quite disgusting, and peoples ignorance to it is no defence.

          It is strange that if a government were to behave in such a way, there would be an uproar of opposition. Yet Microsoft, through the use of con tricks and stealth, get away with it.

          1. Matthew 25

            Re: <Shrug>

            Yes. I totally agree, but it's not just Microsoft. Google, Facebook, Apple, and just about all companies with any sort of online presence do the same to the best of their ability. It is worth more to them than the products they are peddling. Why do you think most of these 'services' are without money cost to the end user?

        4. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: <Shrug>

          Well, good luck with the telemetry. Apple does it, Linux does it...

          Linux? As well as the distros which have absolutely no telemetry whatsoever there are the well-known distros which are certainly not on the same scale and you have more control over it.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well, good luck with the telemetry.

          "Apple does it,

          Apple doesn't do forced telemetry on mac OS. Users are asked if they want to opt-in and even if they do the amount of telemetry that mac OS sends to Apple pales in comparison what a current version of Windows does even in the most benign level of telemetry.

          Apple also reset telemetry settings randomly after certain updates.

          "Linux does it."

          You mean Ubuntu does it, and again the amount of information is hardly comparable to the data sent to Microsoft by any newer Windows variant.

        6. Smirnov

          Re: I also don't get the bit about the online account.

          "You are basically forced into making one if you buy a Mac... No one complains about any of those, but when Microsoft does it, the entire village comes out with their pitchforks and torches. It's fascinating to me from an anthropological perspective."

          No-one complains about it because what you wrote is BS, plain and simple. There is no online requirement for Macs, and never has been. During installation, users are asked if they want to login using their Apple ID, but that's optional (and unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't even hide the option).

          "I also don't get the bit about the online account. "

          My feeling is that this isn't the only thing you don't seem to get.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why?

    I haven't used W11. I am typing this on my own machine which has an i7 6800k processor, 64GB of RAM, an m.2 boot drive and a bunch of other solid & spinny disks. It is more than adequate for making snarky remarks on the internet, viewing smut, dicking about with tech and playing the odd game. The only reason I have it running Windows is because of audio production software/hardware. If I could be arsed, I could probably get that working on Lunix.

  14. LenG

    Hoping to get rid of Win 10 soon

    To be honest, the only reason I have windoze at all is that there are gamers in the house. I run on an ultrawide monitor which makes a vertical taskbar more or less mandatory if you don't want to suffer from neckache. Anything which stretches across the whole screen (apart from games) is very difficult to handle. I do not have a M$ account and have no desire for one. I gather from what I have read that it is actually possible to install W11 without one, although much more difficult than it was for W10. Not sure if you could do an upgrade in place without the account, though, or if you can get rid of it later.

    I'm told you can now run many windows games under linux so my current plan is to build a linux boot stick and see what I can get working.

    1. Boothy

      Re: Hoping to get rid of Win 10 soon

      Worth having a look on Proton DB if you are switching to Linux for gaming. Basically Steams game compatibility with Steam Deck and Desktop Linux. With tips from users to get things working.

      Steam Deck is based on Arch Linux, so if it works on the Deck, it works on Linux.

      Also, whilst you can use nvidia gfx, AMD gfx is generally easier under Linux.

      I switched back around Jan this year. I dual boot with Win 10, but perhaps use Windows around 5% of the time now.

      Good luck and have fun.

      1. Mostly Irrelevant

        Re: Hoping to get rid of Win 10 soon

        I hear this a lot, but the fact that you have to check Proton Db just demonstrates that Proton isn't there yet. To be a real replacement Proton would have to work well enough that people just assume it works and in any case where it doesn't get irrationally angry. That's when you know it's a real replacement for Windows.

        1. Yankee Doodle Doofus Bronze badge

          "...demonstrates that Proton isn't there yet."

          Have you tried it lately? The pace at which it has been improving is incredible. I never check ProtonDB first anymore, things just seem to work. Once in a blue moon I might have to try a slightly older version of Proton, but I haven't found a game which didn't work at all in about a year. In fact, the only game I have had any issues with on Steam recently was Team Fortress 2, using the actual native linux version, on a fresh install of Arch. I switched to using Proton instead, and that worked fine.

  15. dag42
    Thumb Down

    "Design choices" might be generous. For example, hiding the context menu inside a new context menu... I mean wow. For power users, Win11 means going through a series of hacks to get productivity back to Win10 level... which is rich given the outrageous commercials MS published bragging about productivity in Win11?! It didn't help that Win11 had serious technical issues that lasted well over a year. That makes me question if it should be trusted here in Oct 2023. Is it actually ready for prime time? Or is it still the realm of experimenters and the oblivious? I just don't trust it's ready for developers and power users.

  16. Kev99 Silver badge

    I'm still trying find any advantages win10 had over win7, other than mictosoft coercing it's sycophantic software vendors to make their wares incompatible with win7. And before the wow-boyz start saying how much safer win10/11 is, I NEVER had a lick of security problems with win7. Of course, part of the reason is I didn't open every URL or email that comes along, or downloaded every new & improved bit of software that showed up in who knows what website.

    1. Vista

      I mean in my experience, Windows 10 seems to break less than Windows 7 and is easier to recover from a borked state than Win7.

      The newer task manager design is a major improvement over 7's and SMB 3.1 with AES is a nice to have too.

      1. druck Silver badge

        The design of Task Manager might be an improvement, but the functionality is downgraded - it no longer runs as a high priority task, so is useless to kill off something borking the machine.

        1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

          Then use the task manager from Windows NT 4.0, or 2000 or Server 2003. I'd recommend Server 2003 R2 x64 (with all updates installed) as source. Never bothered to test whether the Vista/2008 (without R2) Task Manager works just by copying the binary but it is worth a try. I'd have to dig out my Test-VMs to see whether it works. The original author of the task manager tested it, and the NT 4.0 Task Manager still works on modern systems. Though, if you read the info, you better grab the one from Service Pack 6 as he recommends.

          1. druck Silver badge

            That's a great selling point; you have to extract an executable from a decades old version of the operating system to replace a less functional component of the current one.

            1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

              Yes indeed! That why there are no news articles anywhere about bad acceptance of Windows 11!

  17. riva

    history repeats itself

    dont we see such post after a year of a microsoft OS release? when win12 is released and win10 is retired, everyone will be rocking win11 and resisting win12. lets set a 3 year challenge for a similar article

    1. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: history repeats itself

      It's alternate versions which flop (assuming 8 and 8.1 are counted as variations on the same turd)!

      So Windows 12 is due to be the next one with widespread take-up.

      1. aerogems Silver badge

        Re: history repeats itself

        That alternate version thing only works if you're the sort of person who 1) seeks validation of their opinion from others, and 2) never looks past the surface level. Microsoft proved that one pretty conclusively with their Mojave Experiment. Take Vista, change all instances of "Vista" to "Mojave", tell people it's some experimental new build -- even though it's just bog standard Vista -- and it gets two enthusiastic thumbs up from people who claim they hate Vista. You could do the same thing with any other version of Windows people love to hate and the results would be the same. We're social creatures, and being part of the group means making sure our behavior conforms to within an acceptable level of deviation from the norm. That's all like Sociology 101. So, if the group claims it doesn't like Vista, most people will claim they don't like Vista regardless of what their personal opinion might be, just so they can remain part of the group. Again, this is like the basics of the basics of sociology. Give people an "out" by claiming it's not Vista, it's "Mojave," which the group doesn't have an opinion on, and they are free from the constraints of social norms letting you get their actual opinion.

        It's both fascinating, and a little depressing, just how easy it is to predict people's behaviors. As individuals we're intelligent beings capable of complex reasoning, but as a group we're just big dumb animals.

        1. Alumoi Silver badge

          Re: history repeats itself

          The experiment was done (to/on) with ordinary people. Ordinary people who don't give a damn about the operating system as long as they cat pictures keep rolling.

          Most people here are, at least, PFY-in-training level so they can glance the difference between a turd (Windows 10) and a polished one (Windows 11).

        2. 43300 Silver badge

          Re: history repeats itself

          "That alternate version thing only works if you're the sort of person who 1) seeks validation of their opinion from others, and 2) never looks past the surface level."

          No, I look ad business take-up - and certainly since XP the business take-up of alternate versions has been poor: Vista, 8/8.1, and now probably 11 too. 'Ordinary' people just usually put up with whatever comes on their new computer when they buy it, unless a new version is pushed into their faces by Microsoft.

          I didn't actually dislike Vista - the UI was probably the best they've ever done. The biggest issue with it was that it was quite resource-hungry for the time, and they set the minimum hardware specs too low (probably under pressure from manufacturers). If people wanted to make an effort to install it on old hardware which didn't meet the spec that would have been their look out, but the specs were so low that brand new lower-end computers meeting them were absolute dogs in terms of speed. There were other issues, such as how intrusive the UAC prompts were - W7 largely fixed this.

          We didn't use VIsta on our work machine largely because I didn't want mixed versions, and at the time many of the computers wouldn't have run it acceptably fast. By the time the machines were all up to it, W7 had appeared so we went striaght to that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: history repeats itself

        Right, because we all remember what a flop Windows 4 (95) and 4.1 (98) were. Prognostications based on version numbers are stupid. There is no reason to think Windows 12 will be successful or 13, or 14.

        1. 43300 Silver badge

          Re: history repeats itself

          As I commented above (and you have ignoed, presumably because it doesn't fit with your point), the alternate version thing has largely existed since XP. In the days of 95 / 98 the situation was more complicated as they were largely consumer OSs - the business version at the time was NT4. The two lines weren't merged until XP.

          Partly the alternate-version thing since XP is probably to do with how often businesses are prepared to go through the hassle of an OS upgrade. If a new version doesn't offer anything they really think they need, and has some notable issues for whatever reason, it's hardly unsurprising that they hold off until the following version.

  18. Blackjack Silver badge

    Any laptop from before 2018 is not likely to be on Windows 11 approved list.

    Lets say you got your desktop early in 2018 and want to keep using it with upgrades for about a decade? Well hopefully you got lucky and it meets Windows 11 requirements because otherwise once Windows 10 expires you are out of luck.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      >Any laptop from before 2018 is not likely to be on Windows 11 approved list.

      Don't expect any CPU that doesn't have an "AI accelerator" being on the Windows 12 support list. so that early 2018 system may only have a relatively short life and that recently purchased 2023 system an even shorter life...

  19. wobbly1
    Windows

    The last window box on my network remains a thorn in my side. Its replacement has arrived and will have Debian Bookworm installed. Microsoft's constant meddling with settings lost any appeal it had long ago. It is currently objecting to Google Drive. It was quite happy with it before the last "update" or tranche of telemetry software as it should be known, and I can't be arsed to fix it. When Bookworm fires up on the new machine, for the first time since 1979 (a Commodore PET), I will not own or support any machines running a Microsoft operating system.

    1. sabroni Silver badge
      Meh

      Millions of people do manage to work with Windows, often on large deployments of hundreds or thousands of pcs.

      Not sure "I can't work with this OS" is the brag you think it is.

      1. Smirnov

        Re: Millions of people do manage to work with Windows

        "Millions of people do manage to work with Windows, often on large deployments of hundreds or thousands of pcs."

        That's like saying "eat shit, billions of flies can't be wrong!"

        It's probably more accurate that millions of people are forced to work with Windows and Microsoft applications, mostly because of the heard mentality of their employer. Which is also reflected in their TCO, which is notably higher than for other platforms like Macs or ChromeOS (both easier to manage across large fleets than Windows).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Wasn’t Commodore Basic written by Microsoft?

      1. Jou (Mxyzptlk) Silver badge

        Indeed it was. Depending on which Commodore device you used it said "Microsoft Basic" or "Commodore Basic" on the screen after turning it on. But it always was Microsoft.

        Bill even put a easter egg in some versions of that Basic.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    PC not compatible with W11

    Wallet not compatible with new PC

    </end>

  21. sabroni Silver badge
    Stop

    re: Windows 11 isn't a particularly bad version of Windows by any stretch of the imagination.

    Bollocks.

    11 is basically Windows 95.

    Eww.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Other than occasional nags, Windows 11 has not been forced down

    other than occassional nags, yes.

    1. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: Other than occasional nags, Windows 11 has not been forced down

      It's been nowhere near as intrusive as the W10 upgrade was, where active efforts had to be made to stop it from installing.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Other than occasional nags, Windows 11 has not been forced down

        Maybe not as intrusive, but just as penicious.

        For some reason, even though you've selected the "stay on W10" option, it will still after a month or so offer W11 in the updates section as the only available update, dismiss the offer and W10 will go away and find a whole bunch of updates that may date back several months that need to be applied...

  23. FIA Silver badge

    So the story here is an OS that would run on (pretty much) anything that would run Windows 7 has better uptake than the OS that requires much more modern hardware?

    This is surprising?

  24. MarkMac

    MR

    Win11 won't run on my desktop (intel core i5-6500, tpm1.2) but WILL run in a hyper-v VM on the same hardware. So clearly, MS have a way either to bypass the TPM2.0 requirement if running in an emulator, or emulate TPM2.0 in software. Presumably therefore all they'll need to do is add a low-level driver that emulates TPM2.0 on older machines....

    1. 43300 Silver badge

      Re: MR

      So far as I recall, Hyper-V does emulate TPM 2 - I've run W11 on VMs on older servers under these circumstances.

      However, it does still notice that the CPU (older Xeon) isn't supported - it will clean install, but when it comes to feature updates it absolutely won't install that and a clean install with the newer version is the only option.

      From testing I did with the original release of W11 (not tried with newer feature update versions to the same extent), the actual 'hard' minimum was TPM 1.2 and Secure Boot - if a computer had those, irrespective of CPU version, it would clean install - if they were't present it would refuse. However, if the machine didn't meet the 'soft' requirements (TPM 2, Secure Boot and CPU on the supported list) then the 22H2 feature update would not install as an update. It also wasn't possible to do an in-place upgrade from W10 if the 'soft' requirements were not met.

      All the above is using standard MS media - I am aware that workarounds are possible using Rufus and other tactics.

  25. JavaJester

    Windows 10.5?

    I understand Microsoft's goal of wanting to make the OS and underlying hardware more secure. Here's a compromise: All new computers get Windows 11. Aging hardware that isn't up to scratch for the new hardware requirements gets "Windows 10.5" which is Windows 11 sans the new security hardware requirements.

    Microsoft and laptop manufactures can continue to crow about how much more secure Windows 11 is, and perfectly good hardware is not chucked into the landfill due to a diktat from the Microsoft Overlords. Of course, this will never happen because it is far to sensible.

  26. may_i Silver badge

    Windows 11 is not OK

    Windows 11 is a targeted advertising and user profiling system. It follows on from and expands upon the data collection technology which started with Windows 10. The way that it coerces people to link an account hosted at Microsoft to their computer so that they can build detailed profiles about their users is something that the EU should already be looking very closely at.

  27. Grunchy Silver badge

    Back to Windows 7

    Since I’m running Ubuntu now and I can run any Windows I want as a virtual machine, I’ve ditched Windows 10. I’m back on Windows 7. (By the way: with full GPU passthrough. I solved the puzzle!)

    Virus protection is irrelevant since Windows isn’t used for internet anymore. Just for legacy software, which is also prohibited from any more “update” meddling. Everything works good enough the way it is!

  28. tiggity Silver badge

    Used 11 at work

    Enforced upgrade from W10 (due to upcoming W10 EOL) quite a while ago.

    It was a pain at first as still quite buggy, but a lot of those now ironed out, though still lots of niggly issues - but W10 had niggly issues too.

    UI changes are a pain (I did some reg hacks to get right mouse click menu behaviour back to not needing 2 clicks to do most things), but its generally just about fit for work purpose (like W10) - but neither are great, and neither would be my choice for personal home use.

    .. Both W10 and now W11, normally needed a daily reboot or 2 (though machine is a dev machine so, to be fair, it is pushing OS very hard with IIS, SWL Server, lots of Visual Studio debug sessions, etc., etc. )

    As often the case most niggly issues often with MS products (e.g. Teams - often have sound dropout issues, not to mention huge amounts of RAM consumed, VS copes badly with multi monitor setup, e.g. some selection dropdowns in VS only work on "main" monitor!).

  29. Anshu

    Have to admit that when it was announced i simply thought 'Uughhh Win 11, damnit 10 is decent now which means 11 will be another Vista'.

    With Win 11 preloaded on a new laptop, I thought I'd give it a chance before nuking it with a 10 install and to be honest I don't hate the 'user Experience' on 11 and it runs fine so far.

    I'll never be installing it out of choice on my 9th gen gaming rig as the TPM standard is a fail and to be honest I'm not going out and buying a new MB, RAM and CPU for a PC that functions fine for everything I play just because Micro$hit want to make all the hardware suppliers happy.

  30. Paul Cooper

    Its a bit Meh!

    I'm writing this on a Windows 11 Laptop, and I actually had to look to see what OS I'm running! In terms of my user experience, it's pretty much indistinguishable from the Windows 10 desktop machine I use at home.

    I guess that's the problem: Windows 11 is "So what?" After all, what I use are applications; the OS is almost irrelevant to me as long as it runs the applications I need. I keep being a bit annoyed at the dumbed-down "Settings", but that's really all I notice!

  31. Tim Roberts 1

    I don't claim to be any sort of Windows expert as I've only migrated over from mac's in the last 2 years - mainly a cost/benefit exercise if anyone cares.

    So, my home PC runs win 10, and I'm gradually getting the hang of how to do things, and am able to work out all issues given a bit of time. When I do system updates, I get told that win 11 won't work on it.

    My work laptop ( I own it but take it to work each day) is win 11. Really I see no advantage in win 11 for what I do.

    Some text - I use Libre office, some internet - I use duckducgo, some email - I use thunderbird, some PDF, I use adobe, some photos - I use various bits of software depending on what I'm trying to do, but happy to use GIMP, some audio/video - I use Audacity and VLC.

    Yeah yeah, I'm a boring old fart but win 11 is just not worth the upgrade effort for my home pc, and won't be unless it dies in the arse and I'm forced to upgrade.

    Point is, I suspect I'm not alone.

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not won't, but can't upgrade

    I have 9 Windows based PCs and laptops in my house and only two (8th Gen Intel, 3000 Series AMD) have upgraded to W11.

    My work provided Intel 7th Gen Mobile Workstation won't officially upgrade, nor will my work provided Microsoft Surface Pro 5 (that one feels particularly ironic), my 7th Gen HP Omen gaming rig won't upgrade either, nor my Windows tablet (which did upgrade from W7 to W10), add in an old 2nd Gen i7 that acts as local file storage for the family, plus an old Netbook I use as a print server and a few old random 5th and 6th Gen laptops and that's a lot of perfectly functional W10 machines that will have to be bullied/tricked/cajoled into upgrading to W11 with no guaranteed future support from MS.

    As support to W10 draws to an end, many of these machines (non work ones anyway) will be moved to Linux or Steam's depending on their current use case, as I've no intention of creating unnecessary e-waste due to the whims of MS.

  33. J. M. H.

    Not won't but can't (officially) upgrade

    I have 9 Windows based PCs and laptops in my house and only two (8th Gen Intel, 3000 Series AMD) have upgraded to W11.

    My work provided Intel 7th Gen Mobile Workstation won't officially upgrade, nor will my work provided Microsoft Surface Pro 5 (that one feels particularly ironic), my 7th Gen HP Omen gaming rig won't upgrade either, nor my Windows tablet (which did upgrade from W7 to W10), add in an old 2nd Gen i7 that acts as local file storage for the family, plus an old Netbook I use as a print server and a few old random 5th and 6th Gen laptops and that's a lot of perfectly functional W10 machines that will have to be bullied/tricked/cajoled into upgrading to W11 with no guaranteed future support from MS.

    As support to W10 draws to an end, many of these machines (non work ones anyway) will be moved to Linux or Steam's depending on their current use case, as I've no intention of creating unnecessary e-waste due to the whims of MS.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    All Windows updates have potential problems

    I recently had a Cybersecurity Inquiry from the Mayo Clinic, requesting our software application "patch management" details. I had to try and explain why we have never seen any infections:

    All our applications are safe, most likely as a result of their design to meet the defined military safety standards years ago with absolutely no internet and operating system accessing – we were told that “patching” had potential issues - so we stopped patching our applications originally, errors and bugs have always been resolved since then by simply replacing the whole application, not downloading an “update” because internet access was eliminated to meet the security requirements.

    An additional feature is that the software was created to be fully functional while unrelated to the user’s current windows updated environment, so it does not require any other (potentially updated or infected) computer software accesses – this means that it runs fine on all Windows versions from XP to the current Windows 11 versions. As a result it never needs “patching” to resolve any operating system bugs or changes, and although it's sold and installed worldwide, there have never been any infection reports or complaints in 20 years now. An anonymous response to potentially maintain security these days.

  35. Mostly Irrelevant

    I've been using Windows 11 since release. The UI is a bit more consistent than 10. That and the improved window snapping are the only differences that really affect me.

  36. TimMaher Silver badge
    Coat

    Xenix

    Why don’t we just go back to that? No? I’ll get my coat.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like