back to article Judge tosses Sonos's $32.5M patent win over Google with savage slam down

A California judge has quashed one of Sonos's legal victories against Google – and the $32.5 million royalty payout that came along with it – declaring Sonos's patents at the heart of the matter were the unenforceable work of a "pretender" attempting to "punish an innovator … by delay and sleight of hand." Judge William Alsup' …

  1. ecofeco Silver badge

    A pox on both their houses

    But the judge's ruling of the laches is refreshing for a change.

    Obvious retroactive is obvious. And the way it qualifies seems to allow for individual and poor inventors still be able to sue. i.e. "...is applicable when there is an unreasonable and unexplained delay in patent prosecution despite opportunities to do so earlier."

    Sonos could always afford to file where as the small inventor could still claim hardship.

    1. blackcat Silver badge

      Re: A pox on both their houses

      You do get the feeling that this stems partly from Sonos losing market share after pissing off lots of customers by dropping support for its older products which customers paid quite serious money for.

      Very few companies last forever. Look at the squeezebox or the Rio MP3 players. Pioneers and long dead.

      1. Roopee Silver badge

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        I steer people clear of Sonos and regularly use what they did as the perfect example of why not to buy any kind of household appliance that relies on, or is beholden to, an Internet service or a mobile app.

        1. blackcat Silver badge

          Re: A pox on both their houses

          This is an ongoing issue. The baby camera that now needs a subscription, the home automaton thing that google bought and then ended (I forget the name), the Neeo remote funded by a kickstarter that was bought by Control4 who then said 'no more support for you plebs and we're shutting down the servers that make it work' (I got burned by this). The list goes on.

          I still have my squeezeboxes as the protocol is open and the server is open source and is all local to my network. A friend has an internet radio (I forget the make) that stopped working as it was cloud based.

          I don't want an internet speaker that needs a phone app as I don't always have my phone with me. I want a device with an ON button and controls for volume and what it should play so I can use it like a normal radio.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        San Francisco based judge finds for San Francisco based Google. Hmmmm...

        Lache defence is you didn't sue them immediately so your lawsuit has no merit. So much for trying to settle things outside of the courts first.

        Americans...

        1. Will Godfrey Silver badge

          Re: A pox on both their houses

          Alsop is well known for very reasonable, well thought-out decisions.

      3. OldSod

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        The Squeezebox was a digital music player from Slim Devices that came out as an evolution of their original SliMP3 (Ethernet-attached digital to analog audio player with display) to market in 2001, one of (if not THE) original pioneers in this space. Slim Devices also invented and distributed the Slim Server software that controlled the SliMP3 and fed it music files from a computer hard drive. Logitech bought up Slim Devices in 2006 and expanded the product line, including producing the Squeezebox Radio, and eventually re-named the server software to be the "Logitech Media Server". Although the Squeezebox line of products is no longer commercially sold by Logitech, the Logitech Media Server is still available in a community-supported version that runs on a wide variety of computing platforms along with a whole host of players, including a) original commercial hardware such as the SliMP3 and the Squeezebox Radios, b) free and open-source products like the Raspberry Pi-based PiCorePlayer, and c) a variety of commercial and DIY ESP32-based players. Logitech continues to support their products as far as the accompanying services go, albeit in a low-key way, still operating the on-line MySqueezeBox.com service that allows Squeezebox Radios to stream music through the Internet without a local Logitech Media Server-based music library and providing the free Pandora service originally offered with the Squeezebox Radio.

        I own a still-functional SliMP3 that I bought in 2001 in order to free my digital music to play on regular audio (HiFi) equipment instead of computer sound cards and small amplified speakers. Co-locating a computer with the stereo system and or using low-powered FM transmitters from the computer to a stereo receiver was a less than attractive configuration, both visually and aurally, generally speaking. The SliMP3 provided a way to get all of that music that everyone was ripping from CDs in order to store and playback digitally back into a high-powered, large speaker playback system. I haven't combed through the Sonos patents in detail, but I find it interesting that the battle between Google and Sonos never seems to mention Slim Devices and what may very well be enough prior art to sink most of Sonos claims, with the rest being lame claims of "innovation" that really amounts to nothing more than creating various combinations of equipment all based off of the tech behind the original innovation of the SliMP3 player combined with the SlimServer.

        My home's digital music distribution system includes seven perfectly functional Squeezebox Radios (now over 12 years old and going strong), one RPi4/PiCorePlayer with touch screen controls and its own built-in Logitech Media Server that I'm building as a birthday present for my daughter, and a household music server based on a RPi4 in an Argon One case with a 1 TB SSD that holds by 300 GB or so of lossless-format digital music ripped from my CD collection. This system plays all of my local music library as well as music from various streaming services, with certain Internet radio stations (Blues Cove) and the Pandora streaming service as favorites of mine. I'm in the process of adding two dedicated ESP32-based players with built-in 20 watt amplifiers for background music playback.

        Slim Devices and Logitech may no longer be commercially profiting from the players, but the ecosystem including the server that they invented and essentially gifted to the community, their original commercial products, and a variety of new player products (DIY and commercial) is still going strong. They represent the best of how manufacturers can support their products and user community, perhaps as a radical counterpoint to Sonos.

        1. blackcat Silver badge

          Re: A pox on both their houses

          "commercial and DIY ESP32-based players"

          Any links to the commercial players? I've had a play with Squeezelite-ESP32 on a WROVER board some years back but compiling was ungodly painful and then I got distracted with other projects. Maybe time to dig out the board and try it again as the project looks a lot more mature.

      4. CountCadaver Silver badge

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        Ditto iriver who despite producing products with better sound quality were outdone on the usability front by apple and then by smartphones

        1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: A pox on both their houses

          As a matter of interest I still have an H320 that gets regular use - I plug it into my car system so I get music I like instead of what others think I 'should' like.

          It's now on its second battery.

    2. imanidiot Silver badge

      Re: A pox on both their houses

      Agreed, somehow I feel like I'd like them BOTH to lose. In general I don't see how "devices can be in more than one group" is even innovative to begin with.

      1. garwhale Bronze badge

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        Agree, it's soo obvious, a basic part of set theory.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: A pox on both their houses

        " In general I don't see how "devices can be in more than one group" is even innovative to begin with."

        I did the same sort of thing waaaay back when designing and building audio systems for large facilities such as hotel ballrooms. It's obvious that you'd want to be able to combine room's audio when opening up partitions, but sometimes non-contiguous overflow rooms were needed or there may have been another group (execs, lawyers) that wanted the feed from one or more sources in addition to comms only between their private rooms.

  2. Headley_Grange Silver badge

    Bricking It

    It's a shame that Sonos didn't patent bricking their devices to make you buy new ones. If they had cornered the market on that then no one else would have been able to do it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bricking It

      They would have FRAND licensed it. Its a fundamental corporate right to screw us, and they would never be so gauche as to stop other corporations doing it. As the shark said to the lawyer: "professional courteousy"

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bricking It

      Apple would probably have sued, "prior art"

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This was a case of the industry leading with something new

    New?

    Putting things into groups is "something new"? Just in order to send some music to one lot and something different to another? And the filings go all the back to the distant past of 2006?

    My sister used to group her dolls and one lot had a beat party whist another had a nice tea orchestra with the pretend cakes. In the 1960s.

    In the 1970s we were shown by the hobby magazines how to put little transistor amps on the living room stereo stack, extra speakers into other rooms and the miracle of ganged switches for "all around the house party" or "FM in your bedroom, mum's favourite LP in the kitchen" (which was lot of hard work! "You WILL fix that hole in the plaster! NOW!").

    I'm sure you can all come up with examples of groups of things on computers from the 1980s onwards, to cover the "doing it with wires is obvious, but sending data is an innovation".

    Glad to hear Sonos claim being rejected, shame it wasn't on the basis these "ideas" are just too stupidly obvious to patent in the first place.

    1. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: This was a case of the industry leading with something new

      Indeed.

      Remember helping my dad sort out similar multi speaker setup (with various switches & some amp circuits) as he liked option of music in different areas of the house. where speakers could be in multiple "groups"

      Had speakers in 4 rooms

      A & B downstairs

      C & D upstairs

      Could switch it so went to (one or more) individually specified rooms or all downstairs or all upstairs or all rooms

      Obviously the upstairs & downstairs options each included 2 rooms, and the all option 4 rooms, so speakers in multiple groups & this was not complicated (just a bit tedious planning it all out, hardest part was ensuring sound quality OK and correctly dealing with different speakers that had vastly different peak / RMS capability so as not to accidentally blow some of the small speakers (the 2 downstairs rooms had decent speakers but upstairs were small))

      Lots of people cobbled together similar multi room HiFi solutions (as there were not really decent off the shelf solutions (certainly not at a sensible cost) for it then & back in the day sorting out round the house music options was a popular DIY tinkering about project).

      .. Though to my mind it was a waste of effort when the music coming out was mainly James Last, Elvis etc.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This was a case of the industry leading with something new

        And the difference between the James Last Orchestra and a cow is .... ?

        One has the horns at the front and the arsehole at the back

    2. Drat

      Re: This was a case of the industry leading with something new

      Yes, apparently Venn diagrams were introduced in 1880, that seems like reasonable prior art

  4. garwhale Bronze badge

    Luckily, google has the resources to fight off patent trolls.

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Tell us you're stating that ironically, right?

  5. MachDiamond Silver badge

    It was pointed out...

    by Cory Doctorow that nearly everything that Google has tried to make has failed. The things they are well known for were mainly made part of Google through acquisition.

    1. Matthew "The Worst Writer on the Internet" Saroff

      Re: It was pointed out...

      That is why Mr. Doctorow gets to wear the cape and goggles.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like