back to article Musk's mighty missile is ready for launch once FAA says OK

SpaceX supremo Elon Musk has declared that the next fully stacked Starship is primed for blast off. Sadly, the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) doesn't see things in quite the same way. Musk trumpeted: "Starship is ready to launch, awaiting FAA license approval" on his mouthpiece, X - formerly known as Twitter. That approval, …

  1. gecho

    Cost

    The marginal cost of building another ship / booster is about 3 orders of magnitude less than an SLS. The development cost will also be spread out over thousands of launches vs maybe 8 total for SLS. Hell current billion dollar launch tower will only be used twice for SLS before being scrapped because they need a new billion dollar one after switching to a taller second stage.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Cost

      Not just money. SLS+Orion takes a bunch of ride share cubesats to a distant orbit. Small solar panels and a small antenna far away require a big antenna on Earth. NASA's Deep Space Network is already oversubscribed, under funded and long overdue for maintenance and upgrades. A bunch of cheap cubesats added to make SLS look useful take DSN time away from more productive spacecraft like JWST.

    2. gecho

      Re: Cost

      Perhaps one of the more unsettling things about Starship is the power it will give SpaceX in space. They can launch everyone else's cargo at just enough under competitors rates such that the competitors will find themselves unprofitable. Probably at least 8 years until anyone beside Blue Origin has a hope of fielding something similar since they'd have to develop both heavy lift and propulsive landing at the same time. Meanwhile SpaceX can launch all their own stuff at cost giving all their ventures a huge cost advantage. Right now that is just Starlink, but that could quickly expand into other areas either developed in-house, through acquisition or partnerships.

      1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

        Re: unsettling

        Already happened.

        Delta IV has one more launch before retirement. There is a stock of Atlas Vs waiting for payloads but no new ones will be built. They were killed off by Falcon 9/Heavy.

        Vulcan has very few takers: There are a few customers like Amazon opting for anything but SpaceX - even at the expense of shareholder litigation. The US government want assured access to space via diverse launch vehicles. For the next batch that will be Falcon + Vulcan. ULA can charge what they need for Vulcan because there isn't a third choice yet.

        The batch after that becomes interesting because there will be several choices: a few startups aiming to compete with Falcon 9, Falcon 9 itself (with Starship providing the diversity) and Gradatim Mañana might have New Glenn flying by that time.

        I think one of the startups will survive as a launch provider (some of the others may continue by switching to satellites / 3D printing / space components or whatever their secondary business is). When New Glenn flies, Bezos will ramp the price of BE-4 engines until ULA cannot offer a competitive bid. Bezos is patient and not afraid to spend a huge amount of money to control a market (eg paying everything over $3B for the Blue Moon Human Landing system). New Glenn will fly and get government contracts. If Bezos lives long enough New Armstrong (just a name today) will have a similar cost to Starship.

        I would love to see one of the startups get established because I would love someone other than Musk+Bezos owning space.

        1. ChrisC Silver badge

          Re: unsettling

          All of the above makes sense from someone who NEEDS their launch vehicle to be operated by and launched from the USA.

          In more general terms, depending on which countries/agencies you're willing/able to do business with, and what your payload/orbit requirements are, then you may find there are already options available to you outside of the US, or which may become available once these other operators reach the next steps in their own development programmes.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: unsettling

          "There is a stock of Atlas Vs waiting for payloads but no new ones will be built. They were killed off by Falcon 9/Heavy."

          The Atlas 5 was killed off due to not being able to buy the Russian RD-180 engines anymore. They could have come up with a new engine, but it made more sense to build Vulcan rather than take on the expense of engineering new engines and integrating them on an old platform. F9H isn't taking Atlas 5 work. There isn't much call for the F9H as it is and the Atlas 5 was far more configurable to meet the needs of launches.

      2. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: Cost

        > Perhaps one of the more unsettling things about Starship is the power it will give SpaceX in space. They can launch everyone else's cargo at just enough under competitors rates such that the competitors will find themselves unprofitable

        Is it SpaceX's problem though, if their competitors can't get their shit together?

        They sunk a LOT of time, money, and exploded boosters into the reusability angle, and even now that they've proved it's possible to all the naysayers, nobody else seems to be able to do it. Even Rocket Lab is doing some half-assed thing with parachutes and fishing the booster out of the water.

        1. TheMaskedMan Silver badge

          Re: Cost

          "Is it SpaceX's problem though, if their competitors can't get their shit together?"

          Exactly this! A single point of failure, particularly when controlled by his Muskiness, is always a risky thing. Competition is better. But in order to have that, people have to actually, you know, compete. How spacex run their business is no more their competitors' problem than how the competition runs their business is spacex's problem.

          Right now, all the upcoming competition looks decidedly limited, while falcon 9 looks almost effortless. Rocket go up, rocket come down, repeat. It isn't effortless, of course - it's the result of time, money and the willingness to keep blowing up expensive boosters until they got it right. I have no doubt Starship will go the same way - iteratively explody until they make it work.

          If nobody else is willing to fund that level of risk until they get something as good - if not better - than falcon 9, that is not spacex's problem.

          1. fg_swe Silver badge

            No

            The idiotic approach of launch-testing does not work well anywhere.

            Systematic simulation, HIL testing, expensive ground test rigs are the way to go.

            Then launch with lots of telemetry.

            Musk has the education to make this happen, unlike many others.

            1. eldel

              Re: No

              Which is provably incorrect. The development costs for space-x in total is less than that of the SLS. Systematic simulation is great, as long as it's accurate. How do you get that accuracy with no actual testing.

              Sure, you can spend 13 years and huge amounts of money if you are the recipient of the bottomless pork barrel. On the other hand you can test to destruction with lots of instrumentation and know where it went wrong then fix and try again.

              The orbital launch totals for space-x this year stands at 62 out of the global total of 144. Pretty damn good for the result of a process that does not work well anywhere.

              1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                Re: No

                Musk has also received billions in EXTRAS from the tax payer... Feel free to give a list of all the launches verses all the money given...

                1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

                  Re: Government subsidies

                  If you were talking about Tesla: hell yes.

                  Starlink: more nuanced - Starlink was in line for a significant payday for rural broadband as were other ISPs. The other ISPs were furious because Starlink was delivering, making them look bad and reducing the chance of another round of funding for pretending to provide rural broadband. The entire scheme was cancelled - because it was flawed by design - and a replacement is being considered. Gwynne Shotwell got most of the way through getting DoD funding for operating Starlink in Ukraine. Musk said he donated terminals which may be true but he added in numbers donated and paid for by others. Musk tried charging extra for high data rates that Ukraine did not need or want. Gwynne's work was undermined when Musk thwarted a Ukrainian submarine drone attack on Russian ships. The DoD payment was later paid but with conditions limiting Musk's ability to support Putin.

                  For launches, US tax payers have benefited mightily from SpaceX. Adding in all the payments SpaceX received and subtracting what government Falcon launches would have cost from ULA gives tax payers a generous profit. The Fool even has an article moaning about lost dividends to old space shareholders because nasty SpaceX was taking away potential cost plus contracts.

                  I suppose there is an extra billion per year you can charge to SpaceX: adding up the list prices of competitors launches misses out the billion per year paid to ULA to maintain ground support equipment that was essentially idle because SpaceX took their commercial launch market.

                  1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                    Re: Government subsidies

                    You said many words but you completely skipped addressing the point of how much the tax payers have actually paid SpaceX.

                    How about you actually address the question asked instead of talking about other things to divert attention.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Government subsidies

                      The point: tax-payers have given money to SpaceX and in return received launches. If they did not give that money to SpaceX but managed to get launches from another provider then overall the tax payer would have spent more money.

                      Actual numbers are not relevant, unless you want to gripe about "wasting money on space" as a whole rather than just "SpacX is ripping everyone off".

                      1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                        Re: Government subsidies

                        Of course numbers are relevant... because if you list the true numbers of launches and multiple avenues of payments from tax payers you will find the cost is significantly different.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9

                        > In 2014, SpaceX released combined development costs for Falcon 9 and Dragon. NASA provided US$396 million, while SpaceX provided over US$450 million.[41]

                        in just one year tax payers gave $400M.. for ONE year.

                        https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12

                        > According to a Los Angeles Times investigation, Musk's companies had received an estimated $4.9 billion in government support by 2015, and they've gotten more since.

                        ...

                        > In 2020, Musk's SpaceX and United Launch Alliance won two contracts for National Security Space "launch services" worth a combined $653 million, which they will provide between 2022 and 2027

                        ...

                        > SpaceX also received $15 million in economic development subsidies from Texas, in exchange for building the world's first commercial rocket launchpad in the state

                        So how many billions has Musk received and ARE you including them in the final cost for each launch ? The more you look the mor eyou find out is multi millions often billions all over the place..

                        350M for each launch and that doesnt even include the other grants... when you start to factor those in the cost of ttwo luanches ends up being much much higher and hardly different from the old firms.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Government subsidies

                          > when you start to factor those in the cost of ttwo luanches ends up being much much higher and hardly different from the old firms.

                          So you agree: the final costs are equivalent, so it makes no difference whether SpaceX got the taxpayer money via one route or the other, the cost came out "hardly different from the old firms"

                          So your beef just comes down to "SpaceX is horrid, nyaah".

                      2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                        Re: Government subsidies

                        https://gizmodo.com.au/2023/04/elon-musks-spacex-and-tesla-get-far-more-government-money-than-npr/

                        > SpaceX is, after all, primarily a government contractor, racking up $US15.3 billion in awarded contracts since 2003, according to US government records. Its most important businesses are launching astronauts and scientific missions for NASA, and flying satellites for the US military.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Falcon_9_and_Falcon_Heavy_launches

                        > Since June 2010, rockets from the Falcon 9 family have been launched 261 times, with 259 full mission successes, one partial failure and one total loss of the spacecraft. I

                        I have no idea how many of those 250 launches are for the US gov, but lets say 1/4 have been, thats a cost o $150M for each launch. Thats quite different from $70, thats already double the claimed cost.

                        Is it honest to pretend each launch cost $70 when basic math using incomplete government grants is $150 ? The more you look the more ytou find even more government grants or gifts in other ways...

                  2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                    Re: Government subsidies

                    "Starlink was in line for a significant payday for rural broadband as were other ISPs"

                    Given the costs, it isn't a significant payday and could be a loss.

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: No

                "The development costs for space-x in total is less than that of the SLS."

                Reference needed. SLS, while stupid expensive, is already building serial number 3 with 2 coming up for launch. The SLS system works, Starship/Booster keep blowing up.

            2. RobDog

              Re: No

              You said something positive about Musk. Expect downvotes.

          2. anothercynic Silver badge

            Re: Cost

            I suggest reading the book about SpaceX to see where things went well for SpaceX.

            Find $400 million plus in investment money, then you can do what Elmo did... Most companies (or rather, their investors) won't simply burn $400 million in a few years. Uber & Co are different because people actually see cars on the streets etc, but burning that money to send a big metal cylinder to space... nope, not interested.

            And of course, if you buy (i.e. hire) the right people with the right connections (like Gwynne Shotwell), you can open doors a lot easier than if you don't.

            Elmo did a lot of things right in that regard.

        2. gecho

          Re: Cost

          > Is it SpaceX's problem though, if their competitors can't get their shit together?

          More of a humanity problem with so much power in the hands of one unstable individual.

        3. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Cost

          How will resusability work on the moon when theres no pad there ?

          We all saw what happened to the minimalist pad the first time starship took off...

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Cost

            It would be great if launchers could be from somewhere that had much lower gravity and minimal atmospheric density.

            Then perhaps somebody could land and launch a spacecraft like it was 1969.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Cost

              The apollo moon landers have a base, the return vehicle didnt blast against the moons surface, they used the bottom half which must have provided the protection equivalent to a launch pad.

              With starship we have a large rocket with nothing underneath it which means those engines will be blasting shitloads of gas into a surface made of fine dust and lots of rocks, which must reasonably destroy the engines just like what happened a few weeks back in that launch.

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: Cost

                > which must have provided the protection equivalent to a launch pad.

                Pure supposition on your part - you continue to claim that some protection is needed, so you glom onto anything that might support your conceit.

                Try finding some actual evidence that the Apollo designers ever said "we can not take off without having a pad" instead of "there is no need to carry that lump back up into Lunar orbit, it has done its job and leaving it behind makes the rocket equation for the ascent so much nicer".

                There is no shortage whatsoever of technical details from Apollo. You are making a positive claim, it is up to you to demonstrate the accuracy of that claim.

                > those engines will be blasting shitloads of gas into a surface made of fine dust and lots of rocks, which must reasonably destroy the engines just like what happened a few weeks back in that launch.

                Dust will be raised. Already admitted that. Now, think for a minute - what direction will that dust be going? Outwards and a little upwards. AWAY from the engines. Even you point out that the engines will be producing GAS - which will be moving outwards, carrying dust with it. Once the gas dissipates into the vacuum and no longer has the pressure to push the dust onwards, the dust will simple continue moving outwards, in a parabolic arc, until it lands on the ground again. How would it destroy the engines by moving away from them?

                Damage on Earth was caused by the gas being restricted by the atmosphere - leading to lots of energy being carried UP by soundwave - and by dust and larger particles being supported by and carried along by the atmosphere.

                The Moon does not have an atmosphere!

          2. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: Cost

            Let me have a think and get back to you, maybe the next time you ask this question.

          3. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

            Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

            You are referencing Superheavy (the big booster that takes a fully fuelled Starship half way to orbit) taking off from Earth. Starships have taken off from Earth and landed several times. They took off from much closer to the ground than the Superheavy launch table and landed on stubby little legs in six times Luna gravity without damaging the landing area.

            If you want the real scandal: The NASA requirements for the uncrewed HLS demonstration mission do not include taking off from the Moon. This is because only one provider (SpaceX) could do it. The others required astronauts to spend valuable time on the Moon unbolting bits of their vehicle to make it light enough for the return journey. A difficult task made impossible by the lack of any crew on the demo mission.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

              Im not asking whether Starship and its booster have taken off from earth, where its very much possible to prepare a pad and the associated systems to make this safe. We all know what happens when you have a basic pad without the water system that NASA has recommended and used for a long time. ON the moon or mars there are no pad of any kind.

              Im discussing how is starship a vehicle that weighs ove ra 1000 tonnes and produces a shitload of thrust is going to manage to take off from bare ground on another planet without a prepared pad of some kind.

              1. John Robson Silver badge

                Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

                Well you start off with the dry mass of the ship (not the booster), then add on reasonable cargo (organic and otherwise) and fuel to reach NRHO... and come up with a number well below 1000 tonnes.

                You then look at the proposals and see the sets of engines mounted way up near the top of the main tanks, and realise that the system will barely breath on the regolith.

                1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                  Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

                  Theres only one problem, your engine position claim is not used on any of the Starship designs today or in the past and has never been mentioned. Putting large enough rockets at that position would require significant engineering changes to support the pumps and so on, which have not been done.

                  > Mk1 was 9 m (30 ft) in diameter and about 50 m (160 ft) tall,[106] with an empty mass of 200 t (440,000 lb

                  It cant be completely empty again thats a lot of mass...

                  1. John Robson Silver badge

                    Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

                    Starship dry mass is 100t, not 200t - and the lunar version doesn't need flaps or heat shielding - it's not designed to get back to earth at all, it only needs enough fuel to land from and return to NRHO (i.e. land with ~3km/s)

                    It's not that hard to put some smaller methalox engines up there, it's still rocket engineering, but of all the challenges it's not a show stoppingly complex one. It was used on their proposals - and with or without them, there isn't an issue. The plan was to use gaseous methane/oxygen fuelled engines, which allows them to avoid complex plumbing.

                    Three vacuum raptors, operating throttled way down in a vacuum do not pack the same energy or damage potential as 33 sea level raptors at 100% thrust in a full atmosphere of pressure.

                    1. John Robson Silver badge

                      Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

                      For reference if we assume just 300s of specific impulse, a 100t dry mass, and 3km/s requirement after landing (gives 250m/s margin for getting back to NRHO).

                      NASA are happy with Blue Origin's 20 tons of payload...

                      SpaceX have said "up to 200 tons".

                      So that's between 120 and 300 tons of mass to get back to NRHO, needing between 205 and 515 tons of fuel, for an all up landing mass of 325 and 815 tons.

                      I was putting my finger in the air when I said well under 1000 tons, and looking at the maths, I was right.

            2. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

              "Starships have taken off from Earth and landed several times. "

              And there was even one time when it didn't explode. Yes, just one. Most of the landings have been at speed with one flight done in the fog landing thousands of times in small bits. The last one "landed" in Mexican territorial waters.

              1. John Robson Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: Reuse landing on the Moon

                There have been several hops, you're only thinking about the high altitude tests, which were testing the flip manouvre.

          4. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

            Re: Cost

            The Moon's gravity is less than 1/6 of Earth's. They don't nee as much thrust to get off the surface of the Moon (and the Starship will be considerably lighter anyway!)

            Will probably create quite a blast crater for the first launch from the moon, but I wouild guess that one of the first things to build will be a pad for subsequent landings.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Cost

              The moon is covered in significantly more fine dust than earth, what happens that dust gets sucked into Starship rockets when all that blast happens ? Does that dust just melt and clog everything inside the rockets ?

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: Cost

                > what happens that dust gets sucked into Starship rockets

                *snigger* He thinks that rockets suck stuff in!

                CowHorseFrog, you yourself have pointed out that the rockets push out GAS - they don't suck anything in from the outside! That is the entire point of a rocket engine!

                Oooh, maybe this is why you referred to them as "aircraft" in an earlier comment?

                Come on, at least *try* and learn a little bit about rockets - this is something we started covering in junior school, for pity's sake: quarter-filling a plastic bottle with water, pumping it up with air and Whooosh! I had a two-stage plastic water rocket when I was about 7 years old, nobody is trying to keep this sort of physics a secret from you.

          5. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Cost

            "How will resusability work on the moon when theres no pad there ?"

            No pad. No fuel. No Ground Support Equipment (GSE) etc. If the moon becomes a constant destination, facilities will need to be constructed and they will need to be either very generic or highly defined. It would be silly to spend any taxpayer money to build out a spaceport on the moon that can only accommodate one company's rocket(s).

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Cost

              So whats the point of having reusable rockets then if you cant land and reuse them from the moon ?

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: Cost

                > So whats the point of having reusable rockets then if you cant land and reuse them from the moon ?

                Because everyone, including engineering types who have been looking at this problem since, oooh, the 1940s, and everyone - except CowHorseFrog and a few total nutters, such as Flat Earthers - calculate that we CAN land them on the Moon and take off again - then land, take off, land, take off ...

                Which is not to say that it *will* be StarShip that manages that - not because the whole concept is unworkable, as you claim, but simply because its development hasn't got to that point *quite* yet. Maybe next year.

        4. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Cost

          "Even Rocket Lab is doing some half-assed thing with parachutes and fishing the booster out of the water."

          They have a very different problem to solve - parachutes for small loads are well established, the F9 booster is far too large for that to be realistic, but the fairings do use them.

          The Electron booster is somewhere in the middle... and not having to deal with engine relighting in flight is quite a benefit if they can get away without doing so.

      3. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Cost

        "They can launch everyone else's cargo at just enough under competitors rates such that the competitors will find themselves unprofitable."

        There isn't a market for jumbo payloads. Just look how how little Falcon 9 Heavy gets used. It's not like a years worth of satellites can be taken up in one go as they need to go into specific orbits as much as up really high. There's also no real understanding of the launch costs SpaceX will have to support for the Starship since it isn't done. The only thing that can be said is they are spending billions and billions on development with no end in sight.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Cost

          Well.. if they can nail the reuse then the launch costs will be fuel and mission control time.

          Propellant is ~$1m for a full stack - and even an electron costs ~$5-7m.

          Let's allocate a couple of million for "mileage" on the vehicle, and a further million for mission control costs, and the starship is still cheaper per launch than the electron, even if you just want to launch a single cubesat into a weird orbit.

          The benefits of scale here are quite staggering.

          And believe me there will be payloads that want the full capability, once it's available at a reasonable cost... then both commercial and military customers will want to use it... not very often, but it will get used. The other customer for starship is of course spaceX who need it to launch their V2 starlink birds.

  2. aerogems Silver badge

    Will Twitler Be A Passenger?

    If Twitler's not going to be a passenger, and the rocket isn't bound on some one-way trip to the moon or Mars or a galaxy far, far away... what's the point? Well, except for SpaceX to be the butt (pun very much intended) of some rather amusing jokes by the Harley Quinn writers.

    https://youtu.be/ArDy1Cuq1gw?feature=shared

  3. Mishak Silver badge

    "A lack of a sound suppression system"

    It was the lack of anything to "manage" the flames that was the problem, not the lack of a sound suppression system.

    There was expected to be some erosion of the pad under the rocket, but the designers had expected it to last for one launch, after which the new deluge system was to be installed. In reality, they failed to allow for the huge pressure wave generated when the engines went to 90%. This cracked the pad, allowing the blast to get underneath it, rip it up, and throw it about.

    The new deluge system will stop this, but it will not act as (much of a) sound suppression system - Musk has stated this is not needed, as Starship itself is far enough away from the booster's engines to not be overly stressed by the acoustic shock waves that are generated many, many meters away. The shuttle did need sound suppression, and it had to be upgraded after the first launch as parts of the rear were bent!

    This video shows the difference the deluge makes for a 50% power run (jump to about 10:30).

    There is another video somewhere in which you can see the sound blast travel through the deluge plume as the engines light, but I can't find that one right now.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

      Drops of water absorb and scatter sound so the bidet will suppress some of it. The rocket may not need sound suppression as the plume is travelling far faster than the speed of sound but there may be some benefit to the ground support equipment and the neighbours.

    2. ravenviz Silver badge

      Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

      This is why NASA have always been on top of things, thinking everything through to the nth detail. Sure it’s expensive but it’s also robust! (No comments about STS failures please, it’s old hat).

    3. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

      How will starship work on the moon with no pad and no suppression system etc ?

      1. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

        > How will starship work on the moon with no pad

        You mean, just the top bit, not the entire Earth-launch stack? Just the teeny bit from the very tippy top? How will that ever manage without a pad?

        > and no suppression system etc ?

        Flame and sound suppression on the Moon? How *are* they going to stop the sound waves propagating across all that vacuum? Hmmmm....

        1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

          ROckets produce a lot of gas, The starship vehicle that lands on the moon will be significantly larger than the Apollo lander, and when it returns because its reusable it will be pushing a lot of hot gas. Gas not sound waves, GAS.

          Are you seriously going to tell me an aircraft that large is going to be able to hit the moon or mars or anywhere without throwing up a lot of rocks and dust ?

          WOuld you want to bet human life on landing and firing up for return a rocket that large on bare land anywhere ?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starship_(spacecraft)

          The Starship spacecraft is 50 m (160 ft) tall, 9 m (30 ft) in diameter, and has 6 Raptor engines, 3 of which are optimized for usage in outer space.[7][8] Future vehicles may have an additional 3 Raptor Vacuum engines for increased payload capacity. The vehicle's payload bay, measuring 17 m (56 ft) tall by 8 m (26 ft) in diameter, is the largest of any active or planned launch vehicle; its internal volume of 1,000 m3 (35,000 cu ft) is slightly larger than the ISS's pressurized volume.[9] SpaceX will also provide a 22 m (72 ft) tall payload bay configuration for even larger payloads.[10]

          Starship has a total propellant capacity of 1,200 t (2,600,000 lb)[11] across its main tanks and header tanks.[12] The header tanks are better insulated due to their position and are reserved for use to flip and land the spacecraft following reentry.[13] A set of reaction control thrusters, which use the pressure in the fuel tank, control attitude while in space.[14]

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

            > . Gas not sound waves, GAS.

            Yes, and? On the Moon that gas will immediately expand and be harmless very quickly. You do understand that the problem on Earth *really* is sound, don't you? The exhaust gasses push atmospheric gasses and they push other atmospheric gasses, carrying the energy of the exhaust gasses up and onto the rest of the vehicle structure and onto nearby structures? This transmission of energy occurs as pressure waves, which we call "sound".

            > Are you seriously going to tell me an aircraft that large is going to be able to hit the moon

            No, because it is not an "aircraft" - the hint is in the name! A Mars landing by Starship will also be in "rocket mode" for the landing portion, even if it manages a bit of aerobraking, so - ditto.

            > is going to be able to hit the moon or mars or anywhere without throwing up a lot of rocks and dust ?

            Well, the Moon, Mars and "anywhere" all have very different characteristics. Stick with the easiest, the Moon: yup, when it comes down on its 1/6th G thrust, as it gets very close (so enough of the glasses hit the ground at a reasonable pressure, instead of just harmlessly blossoming out the sides, dust will be kicked up. Maybe pebbles, doubt that "rocks" wiil be shifted. And it will all do a nice little (near as dammit) parabolic curve in the (still, despite that gas rushing away) near vacuum and come down a short distance away.

            For the first landings, no trouble at all. When we land next to the 100-plus occupant colony, come down a kilometre away and use a bus.

            > (lots of numbers copied from Wikipedia, absolutely none of which are telling you anything at all about the conditions when landing on the easy case, the Moon, let alone anything about Mars landings)

            Well done, nice bit of cut'n'paste, but, if you don't mind me quoting one of your own earlier posts on this article:

            > How about you actually address the question asked instead of talking about other things to divert attention.

            1. that one in the corner Silver badge

              Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

              > enough of the glasses hit the ground at a reasonable pressure

              Ah, autocorrect.

              But it is possible to generate thrust by throwing glasses out at high enough velocity (so take contact lenses as a backup, just in case there is a need for emergency extra power).

            2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

              The moon is covered in very fine dust, when the starship rockets blast thata dust will go everywhere including being sucked into the rocket motors.

              When the astronauts visited the moon about 50 years ago they were covered in significantly amounts of dust when they returned inside from walking about the surface.

              The moon isnt hard rock with no dust, the dust gets everywhere...

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_soil

              The fine lunar soil is made of sharp and very adhesive particles, with a distinct gunpowder taste and smell. That said, lunar soil is prospected as a lunar resource, particularly for lunar in situ utilization, such as a lunar building material and soil for growing plants on the Moon.

              1. that one in the corner Silver badge

                Re: "A lack of a sound suppression system"

                > thata dust will go everywhere including being sucked into the rocket motors.

                Rocket motors don't suck! See reply to your previous comment.

                > The moon isnt hard rock with no dust, the dust gets everywhere...

                Yes, yes it does. Unless you happen to have a large blowy thing that can push the dust AWAY - like, say, the exhaust gasses from a rocket!

                Ok, once blown, it can settle onto stuff in the surrounding area - but it won't travel far, as there is no atmosphere or wind to carry it a long way (unlike on the Earth, where the UK is currently being covered in dust blown off a desert).

                As far as risk to a Moon mission goes, the dust will be - as it was with Apollo, as you so correctly described - a nuisance when it is dragged indoors on spacesuits. It is very abrasive[1] and will oxidise (giving off that characteristic smell), so for long-term survival something will have to be done about it. Possibly something electrostatic in nature, as you don't want to be using water or any other consumable to clean it off (unlike after landing back on Earth where we can just turn a hose onto everything).

                [1] abrasive because there is no wind on the Moon, unlike on the Earth, so the particles are not being continually rubbed against each other and having the roughness knocked off them - i.e. it is not being turned into sand. Compare the difference between volcanic "ash" and volcanic sand on Earth: the same basic stuff, only one has been weathered by the wind and the rain and the ocean and, well, the weather.

  4. Brian 3

    "could charitably be described as eventful" OR you could accurately describe it as "typical of an early development launch platform"

  5. cookieMonster Silver badge
    Trollface

    Starship

    Silly name, but at least it doesn’t look like a cock

  6. Mister Dubious
    Trollface

    "Fully stacked Starship?"

    That's how Elon hopes to get his rockets off.

  7. bazza Silver badge

    Premature Stackulation?

    Hmmmm, are we going to be treated to another "the FAA is in my way" tirade? Musk has previously just gone ahead and rolled something out to the launch pad without bothering to wait for FAA clearance, and used that as a PR lever to bash the government regulator. After the many, many things that went wrong on the first launch, I'd not be surprised if SpaceX and the FAA have had and continue to have differences of opinion about "corrective actions".

    From the FAA's point of view, the first launch's safety ended up relying on pure luck - the uncontrolled rocket chose not to fly off towards Port Isabel - and that is something that really, really cannot be allowed to happen again. For the first launch, they'd assessed material / evidence from SpaceX to demonstrate the launch's safety, and reached the wrong conclusion about the reliability of that material / evidence. That's got to have raised the bar for how convincing material / evidence from SpaceX has to be for the FAA to, once again, accept it.

    Also, it has got to have also raised questions inside the FAA about their ability to accurately assess such material / evidence. They made an assessment, and got it wrong. What have they got to change, to be sure that their next assessment for the second launch is more reliable? It's possible that the FAA cannot reach a conclusion about the safety of the second launch, for it to happen in the way that SpaceX want it to. This could mean that, no matter what material / evidence SpaceX has presented, the FAA may decline to make a pronouncement on it.

    The tricky thing for SpaceX is that, if the FAA reaches such a position, it's not like there is not another way. For example, SpaceX can demonstrate the robustness of the launch facilities without actually launching a booster. They could fuel one up, clamp it down, fit it with the Mother of All Destruct Systems (i.e. a lot more explosives than last time) in case it breaks loose, and do a full power firing for an extended period of time. If the launch pad survives undamaged, then the FAA could be convinced that an actual launch would take place without the rocket getting damaged by a disintegrating launch pad. I know they have recently done one small test along those lines. Whether or not it was a "big" enough test for the purpose of fully derisking the launch pad is something I don't know. Arguably, even if it was, doing that test only once is probably not adequate for certainty. Pressing for an actual launch after just one test forces the FAA to consider the possibility of damage occuring during the launch, which after the last debacle is possibly asking too much.

    From the FAA's point of view, if they permit a second launch and that too goes wrong and causes injury (say, Port Isabel gets wiped out this time), they'd have totally failed in their statutory role. People would ask, "why did you believe them the second time?". Personally speaking, if I were in that position, I'd want a lot of other people looking at vehicle, launch site and launch design before I'd even think about putting my name to a second launch. I'd also be reluctant to put my staff in a position of - having got it wrong once - having to be put their names (and, only their names) to new assessments.

    1. TheMaskedMan Silver badge

      Re: Premature Stackulation?

      "I'd also be reluctant to put my staff in a position of - having got it wrong once - having to be put their names (and, only their names) to new assessments."

      While I understand what you're saying, if your staff have got it wrong once, and are afraid of getting it wrong again, perhaps you might need new staff.

      You can only ever do so much. Starship is a new toy, which might well behave in unpredictable ways. Sure, you need to identify and mitigate as many potential problems as you reasonably can. I'm sure spacex will be doing just that, too - it's in their interest to make the thing works, and it's very hard to reuse a heap of burning debris. But when you're done that, it's time to light the blue touchpaper and see what happens. Being totally risk averse achieves nothing; the benefits come from trying, failing, learning and trying again.

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: Premature Stackulation?

        >While I understand what you're saying, if your staff have got it wrong once, and are afraid of getting it wrong again, perhaps you might need new staff.

        Absolutely so. Thing is, the FAA is not exactly staffed by amateurs, and it's hard to imagine from where better more capable people would come from. If they say, "we cannot make a reasonable assessment of this launch request", then that's probably that. No launch permission can be given.

        >But when you're done that, it's time to light the blue touchpaper and see what happens. Being totally risk averse achieves nothing; the benefits come from trying, failing, learning and trying again.

        There's nothing wrong with trying, failing, and having another go. Except that, if the backup safety measures are not assured to work (specifically, the flight termination system), then you should not be allowed to try and try again. What was so concerning about the first flight is that, had it deviated off towards Port Isabel, it turns out that they had no way of destructing the rocket before it would have hit Port Isabel.

        The FTS is quite intriguing on Super Heavy and, in particular, on Star Ship. Star Ship is the first proposed orbital vehicle that is intended to take a lot of fuel up into orbit, keep it, and bring it back into the atmosphere for a powered vertical landing. It has to have a flight termination system, because it is in itself quite a chunky rocket carrying a lot of fuel / LOX. That FTS is always going to be some sort of explosive device on the outer skin of the rocket. Yet, they're going to have to ditch that FTS before reaching orbit, and certainly before re-entry into the atmosphere. Having explosives on the outside during reentry is not a good idea.

        I think the FTS on the first launch failed because they used point charges (which didn't do enough damage), and they used point charges because these are items that can be detached from the rocket and dumped. If they're forced to switch to linear cutting charges running the whole length of StarShip (much like the Shuttle tank and SRBs had), then that sounds like something a lot, lot harder to detach from the rocket and dump. It's just possible that there isn't a viable, detachable dumpable FTS design. If that proves to be the case, then StarShip is an impossible concept.

        1. Hardrada

          Re: Premature Stackulation?

          "It's just possible that there isn't a viable, detachable dumpable FTS design. If that proves to be the case, then StarShip is an impossible concept."

          It seems that an old W54 would address all of those issues quite nicely :) No need to detatch it, since it could do the job from anywhere inside the heat shield and wouldn't be exposed to the heat of re-entry. The FTS would then be available during re-entry if needed, and would be fully re-usable after a successful mission.

          1. bazza Silver badge

            Re: Premature Stackulation?

            I had to look that up. Yes, that'd do the job.

            Though I think there might be some people concerned about the idea of a privately launched rocket with a nuke inside it. Especially if Musk has got anything to do with it.

            1. Hardrada

              Re: Premature Stackulation?

              "I think there might be some people concerned about the idea of a privately launched rocket with a nuke inside it."

              They might have a point. It would more prudent to have two, in case one fails.

      2. Richard 12 Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Premature Stackulation?

        The way all of this works is that the FAA get handed a massive stack of paperwork that basically says "we did some tests and simulations, it'll be fine".

        Historically, the FAA then do a few spot checks on which failure modes have been considered, and that there aren't any glaring issues.

        In short, for the most part they believe what Boeing, SpaceX et al tell them.

        The Superheavy launch attempt have rather broken that trust. They now have to go through the entire stack and examine everything - almost certainly running their own simulations to verify the SpaceX ones aren't just "the only time this emergency system actually worked".

        They may also require some physical tests of particular parts.

        That all simply takes a lot more time. Same as with the 737-MAX.

        Longer term the regulatory capture problem needs solving, but at the end of the day it's a small industry so a revolving door between the regulator and the businesses is inevitable. Can't regulate if you don't understand the engineering.

        1. bazza Silver badge

          Re: Premature Stackulation?

          Regulatory capture is a problem to solve, though I think that since the 737-MAX the FAA, US Gov, and for the moment US politicians (who fund the FAA) have realised the importance of an independent regulator (and, more importantly, one that is very evidently independent) to the reputation of the USA and its industries.

          The MAX crashes and the independent actions of regulators globally was effectively the rest of the world deciding - officially, at national leader level - that "Made in the USA" was not to be trusted.

          A Problem that is Uniquely Unfixable in the USA?

          The rest of the world fully understands how the FAA got captured by Boeing, and part of it is related to how the FAA is funded (by US politicians), and how the politicians in both parties down the decades consistently cut the budget, staffing, and scope of the FAA's work. However, the means by which the FAA's budget is set (and therefore its capabilities) has remained unaltered. The politicians still hold the purse strings. The politicians will change, forget, and so on.

          We're probably (at best) only 10 years away from US politicians once again saying, "why do we put so much money into the FAA when there are no crashes happening?", and once again cutting the budget. The meta-issue going forward is that the rest of the world sees this, sees no changes to protect the FAA from politicians, and knows that the FAA is still vulnerable to a reduction in funding / scope. Other world regulators have to report to their lords and masters that there is no guarantee coming from the USA that effective regulation continues indefinitely.

          In other words, "Made in the USA" still cannot be fully trusted. And given that this is essentially a political problem and the USA seems to have a lot of paralysis over such matters, there seems little prospect of change.

          Geopolitics

          In my view, this is a huge geopolitical / industrial problem for the USA going forward. The implication is that the US's former dominance in aviation came into being despite the polticial set up in the USA, not because of it. If a political system is effectively loaded against the success of an industry, that industry will, long term, cease to be.

          It has other consequences. With rockets, ineffective regulation by one country might have disasterous consequences for another. One country's failed experimental rocket launch can look to another country like a deliberate act of war, especially if it keeps happening. This very thing is going on at the moment with one of China's launchers, where they simply abandon the booster to fall back to earth in some random, uncontrolled location.

          To date, with rockets launched from the USA on the eastern seaboard, so far as I can tell launches are either in the drink or safely in orbit long before they could trouble countries on the other side. Similarly any worst case hypothetical re-entry mishap would result in minimum damage caused by an errant capsule, or a Shuttle gliding in to open countryside somewhere. It's very easy for other countries to be relaxed about it.

          However, with StarShip, the USA is in a particularly interesting position in that StarShip is intended to re-enter the atmosphere still carrying a load of fuel and LOX to be used for landing. It's not called a bomb, no one is intending it to be a bomb, it's not got "bomb" painted on the side. But, coming back into the atmosphere uncontrolled and detonating on impact, it would definitely go off like a pretty convincingly big bomb.

          By "big", well; Wikipedia lists it as having a capacity for 1,200 tons of fuel/LOX, some of which will have been used up getting into orbit. But, it's easy to see it still having a couple of hundred tons after re-entry for landing. If that detonated on crash landing, it'd not be on quite the same scale as the explosion in Beirut explosion in 2020, but it'd be up that way (depending on the explosive equivalence to TNT of a methane/LOX explosion).

          So the USA and the FAA are on the hook to make certain that StarShip re-entry accidents do not ever occur. Especially not in other countries' cities. Can you imagine the ramifications if that happened in, say, Beijing, or Moscow? How comfortable can we be, knowing the fragility of the FAA's funding / effectiveness, and that the company boss seems to have a "send it" approach to getting things right? The USA and the rest of us is depending on the FAA to ensure that SpaceX / Musk doesn't cause a major geopoliticial incident, either by accident or by design. It's one of those low probability, high impact events that people like to dismiss, but probably shouldn't.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Premature Stackulation?

      Musk xcreted that photo resembling steel workers building the Empire State building then months passed before the FAA completed the Programmatic Environmental assessment. Even more months passed before Starship actually launched because SpaceX was not ready. Much to my embarrassment many rocket enthusiasts forget that.

      This time, SpaceX only handed in their final report on orbital flight test one to the FAA two weeks before Musk pulled this similar stunt. If the FAA license does not appear this month I will blame SpaceX for taking this long to complete the report - and be glad that they did not slow development by handing in a low quality rushed report. If the FAA grant the license this month I will blame SpaceX employees for discussing mitigations with the FAA over the last few months and testing them with SpaceX's abundance of prototype Starships - some of which show signs of damage from flight termination system tests. That hard work has done far more to progress the launch license than some silly publicity stunt.

      Musk is a hype man who has demonstrated the ability to raise Tesla stock price far in excess of the amount justified by the company's performance. I thank him for the start up money he gave SpaceX and wish he would just shut up and not cause further embarrassment by trying to blame delays on the FAA.

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Premature Stackulation?

      'From the FAA's point of view, the first launch's safety ended up relying on pure luck "

      The stack lost steering at 85 seconds in addition to a whole bunch of motors going off bang. The termination system didn't activate automatically as advertised and only punched holes in tanks rather than ripping the airframe to bits as finally happened in the end, but wasn't due to a RTS. It's not just the FAA, it's loads of nature and wildlife management agencies that are showing how SpaceX hasn't lived up to the mitigations they agreed to in writing, ever. For a deluge system, SpaceX is required to work with the Army Corps of Engineers, but the application was closed after SpaceX failed to respond to inquiries. Elon instead goes off and has built a "not a deluge" system that will pollute a saltwater habitat with millions of liters of fresh water and may not even function as sold under the pounding of 20 something Raptor engines (maybe more if they can light them all at once). Even being optimistic and believing the water system will work, the question becomes how many times in a row will it where and where will all of that fresh water come from and go to. The top of the milk stool the grain silo sits on gets heavily eroded. That turned out to be a bigger issue than first thought due to the slow liftoff speed. 12mm/second is the number Elon throw out. That's 12mm of steel eroded from the top of the OML every second for greater than 5 seconds. That's not going to be replaced between the time the stack lifts off and the booster comes back to be caught with the chopsticks and flown again the same day.

      Sadly, I know the FAA representative who's signature is at the bottom of the last authorization. She was great to work with when I was in aerospace and she was part of the group that kept our group from behaving badly. It makes me think she's being handed decisions from on high rather than it being her discretion.

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: Premature Stackulation?

        >Sadly, I know the FAA representative who's signature is at the bottom of the last authorization. She was great to work with when I was in aerospace and she was part of the group that kept our group from behaving badly. It makes me think she's being handed decisions from on high rather than it being her discretion.

        If that's the situation she is in, and that's what's happening to her, she is in an impossible situation. It's also something that other world regulators would like to know about, in some detail. Because if that is the way the FAA is operating, then their reputation around the world is toast. One can imagine what that'd do to Boeing's prospects...

        My advice to engineers in a position of undue and dangerous managerial pressure is to print out all the emails (including headers, delivery receipts, read receipts if available), especially the one saying "if you make this happen it will kill people" (or its equivalent), lodge them with a lawyer immediately, witnessed as such by the lawyer, and only then quit. That way if something bad does happen, you have the evidence you need to save your own neck, under your lawyer's control, and submissible as evidence in a court of law. I would do that with another lawyer too for certainty, and keep copies oneself just in case. You are then not dependent on your former boss / employer to stump up that evidence on your behalf at a time when their own necks are on the line.

        If one wants to continue to strive to prevent a disaster, you need to get legal guidance, and that possibly then results in a joint approach to law enforcement. Never go to the police / press without a lot of top cover.

        The alternative - just quitting - is dangerous, because whilst you might eventually be exonerated by a court case, it's going to be one hell of a rough ride getting there.

        Far better to have incontrovertible exonerating evidence on hand to show investigators, police, because that way one is very likely to avoid arrest should a disaster occur. And if they do arrest you, then it's probably a wrongful arrest (which has its compensations).

  8. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Mushroom

    environmentalist wackos throwing a sueball

    [environmentalist wackos] "questioning the decision-making process of the FAA in granting SpaceX a license to launch in the first place."

    I wonder how many of them use things like cell phones, internet, and satellite TV? You know, things that (often) need A ROCKET to put a mini-moon into orbit.

    Vexatious SLAPP sueballs - there needs to be a SERIOUS PUNISHMENT for doing that, but it seems there never is...

    (it's an example of 'Tyranny of the MINORITY')

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: environmentalist wackos throwing a sueball

      It's not really a matter that anyone needs a court to comment on. They had a process, it came up with an answer, and it was widely seen by the millions watching to have been the wrong answer. Any other assurance based on the same process (e.g. mitigation of worse harms) is also weakened.

      The FAA does need to tread fairly carefully. There's more than just environmental safety at stake, there's also human safety. Although the rocket itself is uncrewed, it's more than capable of flying to Port Isabel in only a few seconds and blowing the whole place - and everyone living there - to smithereens. The events of the last launch showed that whatever process was followed to assure launch safety was wrong - the loss of directional control soon after launch and the failure of the FTS to T the F meant they'd been relying on pure luck for that one. If they just follow the same old process, and come up with another wrong conclusion, well that could be a very bad day for everybody. There's 5000+ people over there who are counting on the FAA ensuring that they come to no harm. Less proximate, but still of concern, there's lots of other people down range who are kind of hoping that an errant, out-of-control rocket with a defective FTS doesn't come landing on their heads.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: environmentalist wackos throwing a sueball

        " it's more than capable of flying to Port Isabel in only a few seconds and blowing the whole place"

        Brownsville isn't that much further away and much larger. There's also people living just a couple of kms over the border in Mexico. The last joy ride did land in Mexican territorial waters and didn't come crashing down on any fishing boats, but that doesn't mean it might not happen the next time especially if the rocket is returning in lots of chunks rather than just one big lump as has been the case a few times with this model. Crossing the border and causing problems just compounds the issues.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: environmentalist wackos throwing a sueball

      >> questioning the decision-making process of the FAA in granting SpaceX a license to launch in the first place

      > I wonder how many of them use things like cell phones, internet, and satellite TV? You know, things that (often) need A ROCKET to put a mini-moon into orbit.

      What is your argument supposed to be? That they objected to one launch setup therefore they are hypocritical because they use stuff launched by another setup?

      I rely on trucks to deliver goods to shops so that I can buy them.

      Bloggs Trucking Ltd are running their trucks in a reckless fashion and have just demolished half their own yard when a badly maintained truck went off. The responsible examiners gave them a licence & clean (whatever is needed to run a trucking company) but still I am concerned that next time the damage may be spread farther and impact more innocents.

      Based on your logic, if I complain about Bloggs and get the authorities to take a closer look at their operations, and the examiners' decision, that makes me a hypocritical whacko because I still happily accept the fruits of all the responsible truckers?

    3. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: environmentalist wackos throwing a sueball

      They are not environmental wackos. The Center for Biological Diversity are a bunch of Washington lawyers. Go to their website (do not confuse them with the Centre for Biological Diversity who are environmentalists based in Scotland). Ignore the donations pages and look at who they say they are: lawyers. Look at what they say they do: start litigation. Look at what they want: donations. Look at their complaint (it is on their website but I will not enhance their search engine ranking by linking to it):

      The first page says who they are. The last page says what they want (unrealistic). The middle is supposed to be the evidence to support the plea (it doesn't). For a bunch of lawyers it looks completely amateur. That is because it is not written to be taken seriously by a judge. The purpose of the litigation is to get publicity for fund raising.

  9. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Elon

    Is Elon going to be on board?

    Earth could do with a little break from this miscreant.

    1. Mister Dubious

      Re: Elon

      The proposed launch is only an early attempt at flying the beast, and I'm old enough to remember the USA's early attempts to reach orbit (every month or so they'd blow up a fresh Vanguard). Putting Elon actually on board so untested a craft seems unreasonable.

      However, requiring that he be physically present in Port Isabel during the launch, outdoors and unshielded... Now, THAT seems entirely just.

  10. Andy 73 Silver badge

    Gotta keep the hype train running

    ..doesn't do any harm if the FAA now drag this out for a few months. Investors will be pleased that so much is being done - and no pesky testing to show how far they've actually got towards the fantasy goal of landing on Mars.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Gotta keep the hype train running

      Not sure how many investors care about Mars. They do care a bit about launch contracts - which are earning money. They care a lot about Starlink - which is making some money but would make more if the satellites launched on something bigger and even cheaper than Falcon 9. The principle behind Starlink is sufficiently sound that a competent businessmen like Jeff Bezos (hhchh - tttuh) is trying to enter the market without cheep launch.

      Remember you are not talking about the courageous retail investors in Tesla who are not expecting the next rug pull or even the Twitter bankers who thought they could sell debt to bigger fools. SpaceX is a private company which limits the number investors and restricts share ownership to people with some understanding of how investments work (retail investors interested in SpaceX can get defrauded with a long list of schemes like fake SpaceXcoin). These are people who can see through a bit of Musk theatre. I would like to think the only people Musk is fooling is himself but Tesla's share price shows I am completely wrong there.

      SpaceX is going to Mars. The Boca Chica manufacturing site built on pristine wild life reserve (formerly Sanchez Oil and Gas) is oversized even for proposed expansions of Starlink. The size only makes sense for starting a Mars colony... eventually.

  11. HammerOn1024

    OR

    "Starship Super Heavy to remain on terra firma until US watchdog ticks off the corrective actions"

    OR

    Musk gets annoyed again, as has happened before, throws a Brox Cheer at the FAA, and launches anyway. He'll pay the fine out of petty cash.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: OR

      > He'll pay the fine out of petty cash

      He'll just add it to the list of unpaid bills.

      Then post Xits moaning about how The Man is harassing him with demands for payment and legal threats.

      When he has wrung out the drama, and promised his fans that he will never back down, then he'll quietly pay the fine (and additional non-payment fines and whatever) out of petty cash.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: OR

        The FAA have the legal power to simply end SpaceX.

        If they launched without a licence at all, there wouldn't be a fine. The FAA would be legally required to walk in, lock or confiscate everything and shut them down, permanently.

        This would of course be followed by a few months of legal wrangling.

        The most probable end result of that being a publicly-owned "NuSpace" with a new management team, with Musk (and others) permanently barred from having a controlling interest in any US aerospace business.

        The SpaceX management team know this, of course, so they won't do that, no matter what Musk Xits out.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: OR

      "Musk gets annoyed again, as has happened before, throws a Brox Cheer at the FAA, and launches anyway. He'll pay the fine out of petty cash."

      That sort of defiance couldn't go unpunished. Elon would be picked up and put in a cell along with the flight director and perhaps even Gwynne. If you look at a map, you can see how easy it would be to block a couple of roads to contain everybody in the area and spend a bit of time separating the wheat from dirty rotten scoundrels.

  12. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    Surely landing on the moon with no pad, and then take off from there will simply repeat the destruction to the base and itself that happened on earth in the first big test of starship ?

    Explain ?

    1. dave 76

      you keep asking that but they are stupid questions. I'll take one for the team and reply.

      - The booster part which caused the damage to the launch pad is not going to the moon.

      - The starship that will be landing on the moon will be a variant on the existing (test) starship so no one (outside of SpaceX) knows even the proposed design at the moment.

      - It will be several years of testing before we get to that point and the designs will be iteratively tested and improved.

      1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

        ALL the testing in the world isnt going to change the fact the Starship that does land still needs a pad to take off. When Apollo visited the moon, the lander was two parts, one part remained on the surface and acted as a pad protecting the return vehicle when it blasted back to the command module. Starship is a very large rocket, its always going to create a lot of blast, on a bare surface it will be significantly damaged by that blast.

        Your answer is all bullshit, you havent addressed how the blast from starship will be protected from the vehicle itself, because as we can see they couldnt do that on earth... Big rockets make a big mess when they blast off, you cant avoid that with a complex launch pad and the water system they are now building, something that is missing from the moon.

        A pad which is not present on the moon today and wont be there in time in the future simply because of the massive amount of material required to construct one.

        1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

          Oh no!

          Clearly you have spotted a fatal flaw missed by everyone at NASA. If only there was a video showing you are completely wrong. Oh - here it is. A video showing take off and landing at 6 times Lunar gravity without the oversized landing legs expected for HLS.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Oh no!

            "Oh - here it is. A video showing take off and landing at 6 times Lunar gravity without the oversized landing legs expected for HLS."

            You call that an "unprepared launch site"? Order up a load of JSC1a simulant and try using that under a small model rocket. A dry lake bed is a big upgrade from that stuff since the soil will have undergone a lot of consolidation through being wetted and dried multiple times. Lunar regolith is nothing like that.

        2. that one in the corner Silver badge

          > When Apollo visited the moon, the lander was two parts, one part remained on the surface and acted as a pad protecting the return vehicle when it blasted back to the command module

          Nah.

          They left the bottom part because there was simply no point in taking it back.

          Its supplies had been used up (the first landing was famously made with a rapidly emptying tank), they weren't going to pack up the rover (on later missions) and take that home.

          > Your answer is all bullshit, you havent addressed how the blast from starship will be protected from the vehicle itself, because as we can see they couldnt do that on earth.

          On Earth[1] there is this little thing called "atmosphere" (or "air" to use fewer syllables) which is thick and good at constraining the expansion of gas plumes[2] and transmitting the energy in that plume as "sound" (you may have heard of it).

          > Big rockets make a big mess when they blast off,

          And little rockets make a little mess, even on Earth with all its nasty gravity and horrible old air.

          The Starship is a little rocket[2], the Falcon stack lifting Starship off from Earth is far away.

          [1] not "earth", as you acknowledge they used a pad and not just sitting on the unprotected earth

          [2] have a watch of any big launch - see how the plume of the exhaust gets wider and wider as the atmospheric pressure lessens, so it goes from a searing lance of light, heat and destruction to a rather pretty blue-tinged almost sphere that is many, many times wider than the vehicle itself.

          [3] by comparison

        3. MachDiamond Silver badge

          "Big rockets make a big mess when they blast off, you cant avoid that with a complex launch pad and the water system they are now building,"

          I suppose you meant to say the "can" avoid the issues with a deluge system. The downside is that Elon is building a "not a deluge" system since he doesn't have approvals but insists on blundering on anyway.

      2. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "- The starship that will be landing on the moon will be a variant on the existing (test) starship so no one (outside of SpaceX) knows even the proposed design at the moment."

        They are well into the CGI phase of development and NASA has given them money for development. I'm pretty sure the contract award came with some sort of presentation from Elon. In fact, I know it did. The money for propellant transfer isn't as well defined since they are just now "looking into it" and don't even have prototypes of the connectors they would need.

  13. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

    I doubt the FAA

    really care about the pad destruction beyond a brief bit about how far some of the concrete chunks got(out to sea if you watch one of the replays)

    I suspect the focus will be on the APUs as in why one quit at 36 seconds, and then the other at about 2 mins, followed by the FTS not actually working when the controllers realised they'd lost control when the last APU failed..

    Still the flight proved starship could fly with multiple engine failures, the lost of an APU and the structure is strong enough to hang together as it fell back into the atmosphere...

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I doubt the FAA

      "I doubt the FAA

      really care about the pad destruction beyond a brief bit about how far some of the concrete chunks got(out to sea if you watch one of the replays)"

      The FAA cares more about the welfare of the uninvolved. Toxic pulverized concrete raining down on a city and the impact to neighboring wildlife preserves are a big deal. SpaceX could wreck things all day long and not have an issue with the FAA if it doesn't have a chance of impacting others.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: I doubt the FAA

      "I suspect the focus will be on the APUs as in why one quit at 36 seconds, and then the other at about 2 mins, followed by the FTS not actually working when the controllers realised they'd lost control when the last APU failed.."

      Steering was lost 85 seconds in and past that point, the rocket was out of control. Elon is saying they had already planned to move away from a common manifold hydraulic system to all electric actuators (so why did they fly?) and that's another thing they haven't tested before on just a Starship.

    3. bazza Silver badge

      Re: I doubt the FAA

      The FAA does care about pad destruction, because it pertains to the possibility (and, in the first launch, certainty) that the booster gets damaged as a result.

      The difficulty is that they can carry out a launch safety analysis against only the design of the rocket, but if the rocket gets damaged by a disintegrating pad it's no longer as per the design. Thus the thing flying is now different to the thing that was assessed, and your safety case has no validity from that point onwards. You are then trusting to luck.

      For example, if a lump of debris took out the radio antenna for the flight termination system, it would no longer be possible to remotely destruct the vehicle. You now have a rocket flying that you may very much want to stop, but you cannot. If it's also started heading off towards, say, Port Isabel, perhaps because a bunch of engines on one side of the rocket got taken out, you're going to wind up with 5,000 dead people.

      This is why "Foreign Object Damage" (FOD) is such a big deal in aerospace. One tiny piece of the wrong material in the wrong place can cause disaster. Lumps of launch pad flying around the place at high velocity is almost certainly doing to result in FOD on a truly grand scale, with a high potential for major problems as a result.

      Other things going wrong (e.g. an engine explosion) can be modelled, assessed, allowed for in the design and deemed safe. Though it looks like they got quite a lot of that kind of thing wrong last time too.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: I doubt the FAA

        "For example, if a lump of debris took out the radio antenna for the flight termination system, it would no longer be possible to remotely destruct the vehicle. "

        The flight termination system is supposed to be autonomous. SpaceX had said it was self-contained when it turned out that it wasn't. While there can be remote activation available, the system is supposed to detect issues onboard and terminate flight with no user input.

  14. spireite Silver badge

    SpaceX killing competition is a problem?

    I'm not sure I buy that argument necessarily.

    They've proven that they can do this stuff very reliably.

    They have proven they can do it at sensible prices,

    They have proven that the corporations doing the SLS are money-sucking/grabbing.

    If SpaceX were massively undercutting and failing to deliver, then that's a different thing.... but they aren't.

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