back to article Hide and seek in outer space highlights a battle here on Earth

The true measure of technology is not how well it matches human intelligence, but how well it survives human stupidity. Humanity's most iconic robots, the Voyager space probes, seem to be up to that job. Nearly 20 billion kilometers from home and nearly 50 years in deep space, Voyager 2 has just been told to point its antenna …

  1. Paul Crawford Silver badge
    Pint

    Thanks for that article.

    The Voyagers were and still are an amazing achievement and show what good engineering can do, they really are a testament to those behind a huge project that no doubt has seen more than one generation come and go from inception to conclusion. Similarly the DSN 70m dishes were a huge project in both cost and engineering, but years on, and numerous upgrades to RF and signal processing over the years, they are still #1 in terms of deep space comms. I don't know if anyone has looked at the value for money, but those have definitely repaid in terms of over a half century of science.

    How many of us will ever do anything that has such a lasting impact on mankind?

    1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      How many of us will ever do anything that has such a lasting impact on mankind?

      Make a lasting impact isn't necessarily a good thing.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "Make a lasting impact isn't necessarily a good thing."

        Or a mix of the good and bad with somebody such as Fritz Haber.

      2. Flat Phillip
        Unhappy

        Wow, they weren't wrong describing him as a one-man environmental disaster.

        1. oliversalmon
          Mushroom

          Not as much as this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.

          1. Arthur the cat Silver badge
            WTF?

            Did you even look at the hover text for the link?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The solution was to enable the additives in petrol to lubricate the tappets.

        Otherwise engine wear would be such that the industrial processes to make disposable cylinder heads would far exceed the impact of the exhaust fumes themselves.

        Perhaps his legacy was to delay the electrical car revolution we're experiencing today - isn't that a good thing?

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

          The solution was to enable the additives in petrol to lubricate the tappets.

          In 1916, Midgley began working at General Motors. In December 1921, … he discovered (after discarding tellurium due to the difficult-to-eradicate smell) that the addition of tetraethyllead (TEL) to gasoline prevented knocking in internal combustion engines. … Oil companies and automobile manufacturers (especially General Motors, which owned the patent jointly filed by Kettering and Midgley) promoted the TEL additive as an inexpensive alternative superior to ethanol or ethanol-blended fuels, on which they could make very little profit

          It was all about corporate profits. Plus ça change, …

        2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          Lead lubricated the valve seats, not the tappets, which are oiled. The solution was hardened valve seats, which Citroen (for example) fitted to the 2CV from the 40s.

  2. Version 1.0 Silver badge
    Joke

    But these AI days ...

    The true measure of technology is not how well it matches human stupidity, but how well it survives human "intelligence". - just a joke because this story is a very good opinion in El Reg - THANKS!

    1. PeterM42
      Megaphone

      Re: But these AI days ...

      "The true measure of technology is not how well it matches human intelligence, but how well it survives human stupidity."

      Is actually a VERY profound statement.

  3. Ian Johnston Silver badge

    What are we sending up now which scientists in fifty years will use in the way that current scientists use the Yoyagers? Shouldn't we have been sending up something programmable every ten years or? As things stand it's going to take design and construction time plus fifty year - 75 years altogether? - to replace the Voyagers when they finally conk out.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You can't really replace the voyagers unless you're doing it for your children (or possibly grandchildren) to undertake science with. It would also probably be more useful to gather more data on the solar system, unless the aim is to build an interstellar probe which will send data home eventually from another star, but that's a much harder task than what voyager 1 and 2 have achieved.

      1. lidgaca-2

        Anonymous Coward wrote

        You can't really replace the voyagers unless you're doing it for your children" ...

        Well you can't really replace the Voyagers for another ~ 130 years ... The Voyager program was specifically designed to use a rare planetary alignment that allowed the craft to transit the outer planets via gravity assist.

        Delta Vee is still a problem.

        -- Chris

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          "Delta Vee is still a problem."

          But not insurmountable. if there was the will and the finance, it should be possible to "launch" a fully fuelled rocket from LEO having refuelled in orbit, with a final stage ion engine for a much faster trip further out. Whether it would have a useful ability to gather planetary data on the way may not be an issue given the primary mission of catching up to the Voyagers and getting data from that part of space. But there's no way that sort of expenditure is going to happen anytime soon. (Possibly when/if Starship proves its mettle and SpaceX actually does go ahead with it's "space tanker" development)

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "But not insurmountable. if there was the will and the finance, it should be possible to "launch" a fully fuelled rocket from LEO having refuelled in orbit, with a final stage ion engine for a much faster trip further out."

            That's a whole bunch of moving parts and I really wouldn't pin too many hopes on the long term survival of SpaceX. Orbital fuel depots have been talked about a lot for decades. They will get done at some point, but only when they are part of an important program. Utilizing the moon might be that program. It will be a good place to perfect technologies to go further out, but also a very good place to do biological research and possibly manufacturing where a low G environment and lots of free vacuum are key factors.

          2. ThatOne Silver badge
            Unhappy

            > if there was the will and the finance

            Unfortunately you said it, right there: Why would the bean counters want to spend outlandish amounts of their precious money to send something into deep space? For them there is only one important thing in the world, and that's the quarterly earnings statements.

            We nerds might get all starry-eyed about some old piece of technology zooming through the great void, but we're exceptions, for the average Joe the whole idea is absolute nonsense, and that money should better be spend for them and their immediate creature comforts. (We have some people of that persuasion even here.)

            TL;DR: Unlikely to happen, bordering to impossible. Unless you convince them there is an asteroid of massive gold waiting for them out there in the Oort cloud...

            1. red19

              Even then that's a long game that they would not likely see the return on.

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              "Unless you convince them there is an asteroid of massive gold waiting for them out there in the Oort cloud..."

              If you mean Voga, there was a documentary about it;s discovery many years ago :-)

              And it's only as far a Jupiter, so much easier to reach :-)

            3. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "Unless you convince them there is an asteroid of massive gold waiting for them out there in the Oort cloud..."

              Even pure gold wouldn't have any ROI for a round trip out that far. It's the same as Mars being coated with 1,000 carat diamonds. Flooding the market with anything has a big downward force on prices.

      2. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        unless the aim is to build an interstellar probe which will send data home

        I recall a tale in (probably) Analog in which the residents of some distant sun are waiting on Earth at NASA to check that the data received from the probe (before they blew it up as a threat!) was good enough to give a suitable grant to the instrumentation makers...

        1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          What does that mean? Are they residents of a distant sun, or on earth. Why would good data get a grant to instrumentation makers?

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      What are we sending up now which scientists in fifty years will use in the way that current scientists use the Yoyagers?

      We sent the New Horizons probe to Pluto, and that's travelling at similar speeds to the Voyagers. It's planned to do some Kuyper Belt fly-by's - and will also be gathering data on the edges of the solar system. When it reaches them.

      But the problem with going fast is that you don't get to do as much science as you go zooming past things too quickly. So as we've got better, we've put orbiters round Saturn, and soon Jupiter. Rather than sending the Voyagers on past. Plus several round Mars and have sent one off to Mercury.

      Space agencies have limited budgets, and lots of things to do with them.

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        "Space agencies have limited budgets, and lots of things to do with them."

        There's also a question of focus. The "out-far" missions are exciting, but are also expensive in an exchange for pure science results. Really getting stuck into Luna could yield both science AND engineering results. It's also an easier sales pitch to taxpayers the more spinoffs there are that can be pointed to that have an impact on people's daily lives.

        1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

          "Luna"? Is that the moon?

        2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          There's also a question of focus. The "out-far" missions are exciting, but are also expensive in an exchange for pure science results.

          Something I should have added there. Probes sent out to the distant planets take ages to get there. So the budget is going to be higher, given that you're spreading your mission life over many more years - and also the return on your budget is over a much longer period. It took New Horizons 9 years to reach Pluto, funding was approved 2 years before that - obviously there will have been preliminary work for years before that and then it was another 4 years until it did its Kuiper Belt fly-by. I thought they had found it another target, but it's got budget until 2025 at least. The probe is expected to have power until at least 2040.

          There's also a career issue. If you're a space scientist, you don't have many outer solar system missions in you before retirement. Especially if you want to see the results.

          I went to a Register lecture many moons ago from Dr Geraint Jones. The thing he said was that in a career as a space scientist, you start by working on other people's missions. Then you work on missions that you get to study the results of. Then you get to a certain age and start to work on missions that you are unlikely to see the results of until you're in your 70s. I guess that depends on how much you enjoy the process of designing the mission and the spacecraft, and how much you love the pure science of poring over the results.

          1. ThatOne Silver badge

            It is true that many of those deep space missions are akin to the building of cathedrals in the middle ages: You started the ball rolling, knowing very well you'll never see the end result, it will be for your children (or even your great-great-grandchildren!) to see The Work finished.

            And yet people did it nevertheless, Europe is full of cathedrals, some of which took centuries to build... Apparently there were more of men of vision back then, and less instant gratification junkies...

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            "The thing he said was that in a career as a space scientist, you start by working on other people's missions. Then you work on missions that you get to study the results of. Then you get to a certain age and start to work on missions that you are unlikely to see the results of until you're in your 70s. I guess that depends on how much you enjoy the process of designing the mission and the spacecraft, and how much you love the pure science of poring over the results."

            A really good book on that is "Roving Mars" by Steve Squyers. He goes through all of the trials and tribulations of getting an experiment on a spacecraft and getting a whole mission. I've met a few people at JPL that worked their whole careers on numerous projects and never had anything fly.

    3. RegGuy1 Silver badge
      Pint

      Gaia

      What are we sending up now which scientists in fifty years will use in the way that current scientists use the Yoyagers?

      Easy: Gaia. That is quietly transforming our knowledge of the galaxy. Beer, naturally. ====>

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Slightly misleading?

    I refer to: "Nearly 20 billion kilometers from home and nearly 50 years in deep space, Voyager 2 has just been told to point its antenna away from Earth and await further orders."

    This sounds like the Voyager 2 was TOLD specifically to point it's antenna away from Earth...when in actual fact it was an error. (And it could not receive any "future orders" if the antenna was pointed away from Earth !!)

    But thanks to the DSN near Sydney, Aus, they were able to bombard the suspected location of V'Ger 2 and get it to re-orientate itself back towards Earth. And all is now well again.

  5. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Boffin

    Science

    is all about convincing someone to fund your latest project which will do some science

    Then after the project is underway/completed , convincing them that the answer you found was the one you were looking for not just some random breakthrough in quantum entanglement which means all crypto is now worthless and computers 2000 times faster(except when running windows 12)

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Science

      Yeah, lots of "green", "carbon neutral" and so on in the grant request should do it :-)

      1. Sir Sham Cad

        Re: Science

        Or "The other guy might get there before you". That used to get Space Budget allocated!

  6. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Mandatory watching

    "It's Quieter in the Twilight" - 2022 documentary about the aging Voyager team still keeping things going in a dinky office and on a shoestring budget.

  7. bazza Silver badge

    Troubles in Physics

    From the Article:

    That experiment took place in an ordinary university lab on an ordinary budget: no wonder the proposed successor to the LHC, the FCC or Future Circular Collider, is no shoo-in for its €20 billion price tag. The LHC was guaranteed to prove or disprove the Higgs; the FCC lacks such a clear goal. That doesn't help.

    This has long been a prolem in particle physics. The times when a theoretician has come up with a believable and testable idea are remarkably few. Abdus Salam and Co came up with the electroweak force unification theory, and the SPS at Cern was modified to do the job. Success and Nobel prizes. Peter Higgs had his boson too.

    But, really, that's about it. There's been a lot of experimental "WTF is that?" data, and not a lot of theory to explain it.

    We've been here before. Back in the 60s, 70s, they thought that a productive area for research would be nuclear structure physics. This was especially appealing because the type of accelerator needed to probe it was quite small, and within reach of individual universities, which in part made the field appealing (everyone likes to have their own particle accelerator, right?). Oxford had one, there were a fair few scattered all over the place. The problem was, having built the accelerators and starting to get data, it turned out that the physics was very complex, hard to explain, and everyone met with little success.

    That's when fundamental particle bashing started to look a lot simpler to understand, but needed bigger machines / more energy. The politics and funding arrangements drove things in a direction where success was predicted.

    Should they build the FCC? Probably, yes. It's a bit like sending a deep space probe to Pluto. Everyone's expecting dullness. Could be exciting (and of course, New Horizons and the team did spectacularly well, and found the complete opposite of dullness). We won't know till we try.

    Fundamentally, if we can produce higher energy collisions we're going to see stuff; it might just be an awful lot of Higgs bosons, but it might be something new. Just because the theoreticians have no real idea what's out there doesn't mean that we shouldn't look. There's also the point that, if our achieved collision energy starts oustripping mother nature, what might we find? The answer is not "nothing". Look at the periodic table; quite a few elements from Neptunium upwards are artificial, didn't exist on the planet until we started making them (though natural plutonium has been hypothesised). Anyone got a use for an artificially constructed fundamental particle? Imagine, building a bespoke boson. That'd mean inventing your own force field. Isn't that what we want to be able to do?

    Ok, some will rightly point out that mother nature's collision energies are a lot higher than what we've achieved so far in an accelerator. But that just means that we've not yet fully explored all of what mother nature does. So there's something we don't know.

    1. Xalran

      Re: Troubles in Physics

      "though natural plutonium has been hypothesised"

      I'll points you towards Olko and it's natural reactors... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor

      over their *operational time* they produced the whole set of fission products you'd expect to see coming out of any nuclear power plant n the world.

      The French version of the page state that it's estimated that about 1.5T of Plutonium was produced :

      https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9acteur_nucl%C3%A9aire_naturel_d%27Oklo

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Troubles in Physics

      There is an argument to be made that much of the research output of colliders, like the LHC, is in fact little more than the end result of heavily (and obviously, unconsciously) biased computer models interpreting random noise. The raw data that comes out of an accelerator is a huge mess of signals from a multitude of sensors, which has to be refined and interpreted by computer models. Those computer models are written on the assumption of certain results (particle decay paths and the like), derived from mathematical models. The only way to test those mathematical models is with a fuck-huge particle collider, which costs billions to build.

      Independent validation by third parties is effectively impossible, as anyone who invests in the incredibly expensive machinery necessary to replicate the results will also be hugely invested in a positive outcome (i.e. that the machinery will produce the same results), otherwise the cost of construction will be perceived as a waste of funds. Meanwhile, anyone who tests the mathematical models against the computer-model-interpreted results is a priori accepting that the mathematical model is correct, and therefore that the interpreted results must also be correct. This means that everyone working on the project will be unconsciously biased to produce computer models that favourably interpret their inputs to match the theoretical, mathematical models.

      The standard model is reliably predictive, though most of its predictions are about things that are only observed through the lens of the standard model itself; many elements of the standard model are modifications to the model to explain why observations didn't initially match it. Nevertheless, it is predictive. The problem is, a model can be accurately predictive and still be completely and utterly wrong.

      There is a distinct and very high probability that this possibility has not been seriously considered by the last few generations of scientists working on this, because it would invalidate over a century of prior (largely mathematical) research, and consequently invalidate entire lifetimes of expended effort and prestige. They are operating within a paradigm that has, in many cases, been the prevailing mode of thought since before their parents were born. They cannot perceive the possibility of an alternative, let alone begin to develop a framework to explore it.

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: Troubles in Physics

        It's true that the results from particle physics are statistical in nature, rather than definitive. But I think they're pretty thorough, looking for consistency good to 5 sigmas. That's pretty damned certain.

        The "scandal" in the field involved a more publicity-minded group leader declaring results to the world ahead of their data having achieved 5 sigmas of certainty, trusting that by the time they've completed the work they'd actually have got 5 sigma. This happened in CERN when they were running the SPS looking to confirm the existence of the W & Z vector bosons; Carlos Rubia was the publicity-minded group leader. It paid off - he / they got the Nobel prize, the other more steadied group working with data from the other detector took their time and have been lost to history, even though they published the same result at about the same time. Since then, CERN has insisted on being in control of the release of results, etc, to prevent a similar occurence.

        Incidentally, having 2 detectors working and two research groups working independently but supplied by the same accelerator is the way they get "validation by third parties". It's all done at CERN, but the results from one detector and the data processing performed by that team are effectively verifying the results produced by a different team on the other detector. They know that building one accelerator with one detector would mean a lack of verification, which is why they put 2 in.

        Pulling signals out of noise is not a magic process, it's a designable, demonstrable, testable, assurable process, to whatever level of certainty one wishes (5 sigmas in the case of particle physics, I understand). The same kind of process is used in probing the structure of the earth using shockwaves from earthquakes; they've been able to determine an awful lot that way, to high degrees of certainty. Radio receivers have become increasingly complex and have been doing the same thing for a long time. No one bats an eyelid at a mobile phone working...

        With regard to the Standard Model, they do appear to be somewhat stuck for ideas. It's a model that's grown up around physical measurements. But as for whether it's an adequate model for what Mother Nature actually does is somewhat doubtful... The Wikipedia page on it is straightforward about its frailties. Alternatives are considered - the Standard Model is not the only model people work on, String Theory being another.

        The good thing today is that there is an awful lot of data - from accelerators, from astronomy, etc - sitting around and so if some bright spark with an Einstein brain fitted gets their teeth into the problem, there's a lot of accurate experimental data to try fitting to it. My biggest worry is that curating that data is actually a major challenge - there's so much of the raw stuff that they can't even get it out of the detectors without some pre-processing. Someone needs to curate and care for that data, so that it remains available indefinitely waiting for that bright spark to come along. We're not very good at data curation.

        NASA nearly came a cropper with the Voyager missions. They've been undoubtedly successful of course. However, a little known activity of the missions was to record the interplanetary magnet fields, things like that; dull, dull data of no apparent value, endless reams of it collected and stored, with no apparent purpose in mind. Until one day (about 10 years ago I recall), someone clever so and so thought of a use for it and requested copies of the data. At this point it was found that, whilst the data had been recorded, much of it was on old reel to reel tape dating back to the 1970s and 1980s, and it had become more or less unplayable. Some tape had become brittle and crumbly. Some had become sticky. Etc. They actually embarked on a massive data recovery exercise, and developed techniques to play these old tapes. The crumbly ones they found they could play once, with dust coming out of the tape pull capstain, which had to be hoovered up as the tape played. The sticky ones they found they could play once, if they put the tape / player into a deep freeze. They actually managed to recover a good proportion of the data, and a pretty good research paper was produced from it. But it was a good lesson in how preemptive data curation is a hell of a lot easier than data recovery off ancient decayed media. I just hope CERN and all the research groups who collect the data take the task seriously.

        Oddly enough, the folk who are expert these days in data curation / preservation are accountants in the USA. The data preservation requirements in the Sarbanes Oxley act that was born out of the Enron scandal are pretty tough, with jail terms for failure. There's now a significant industry in accounting data preservation...

    3. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Troubles in Physics

      "Should they build the FCC? Probably, yes."

      I think there should be a solid theoretical goal to go after first and a design that's not too hard to modify. You don't want to be $40bn into something (the cost of a $20bn project) and find you need another $15bn to modify something when a goal is identified.

      It's always hard to do the really big projects when the same money could fund scores of other endeavors. There's often not enough money to fund science programs in schools and that means we lose loads of potential new scientists.

  8. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

    "...they are designed to do a periodic realignment of their orientation by means of the Sun and the star Canopus [PDF] – neither of which is going to randomly throw out dodgy instructions..."

    Two days later: KABOOM!!! Canopus goes supernova.

    (I looked it up. It's in the blue loop and at 10 M probably not heavy enough to go supernova once it's exited it.)

  9. miken101
    Angel

    What we need going forward is the FOBC

    Feck Off Big Collider

  10. Locomotion69
    Trollface

    Those engineers must have been teachers as well. They must have realised that their students are actually idiots and then decided to protect their "baby" from mistreatment from those students once grown up.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Or they had at least one experienced network engineer on staff. One who was experienced enough to have accidentally misconfigured a router, and didn't want to drive a few billion km in the middle of the night to reset the dang thing.

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