Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop

If you count Android and Chrome OS as Linux, which I do, the Linux desktop accounts for 44.98 percent of the end user market. But if your idea of the "Linux desktop" has a front end of Cinnamon, GNOME or KDE, then it's more like 3.06 percent. Better than it has been at times, but it's no "Year of the Linux desktop." Maybe, …

[Snake]

They'll try

Microsoft will try but it won't be the world-replacing product that they wish for. After all, Chromebook already exists and is a cloud-based system and look, it does not dominate the laptop market - the major reason that Chromebook has the market share it does, as of 2021 at 10.8%, is because of the education market.

People already have a choice of going with a cloud-based OS, and overwhelmingly when given their own choice in the matter, prefer their OS on their own bare metal.

That doesn't mean that Microsoft's idea is a dead-end: what it MEANS, reading through the lines, is that MS wants a slice of Alphabet's educational market cloud services pie. And a big one, if they can help it. 10.8% is still 10.8% that MS *isn't* a part of and that grinds on [any and *all* mega-corp's] plans for world domination.

-------------------------------------

And I'll keep say it to the detriment of downvotes but Linux will NEVER dominate on the desktop. It's the APPS people care about, the OS is just the 'enabler', and Linux client-level apps just do NOT measure up to the commercial products that they compete against. I'm sorry, but (for the vast, vast, vast) majority of cases, that is true, has been true for decades, and is why so many people (besides noob-unfriendly learning curve) stay away. Linux developers needs to step up their end user program designs and stop paying so much attention to just the OS, as the OS is but one of many decision points in a potential user/buyer's decision on what system they use.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: They'll try

"It's the APPS people care about"

Read your first part again. Those people using Chromebooks and Google online services are not caring about using Microsoft's apps.

The home users I know with W10 are also not paying Microsoft whatever it is a year to run Office 365, they're using one of the several alternatives.

When it comes to having to fork out money it's not APPS people care about it's FUNCTIONALITY. They're discovering they don't need MS Office to provide that functionality. By your own argument if they don't need Microsoft for the functionality they don't need it to provide the OS because those alternative apps all run on Linux as does much else. Why should their next desktop OS not be Zorin, Mint or whatever? It doesn't need to be Windows any more.

[Snake]

Re: functionality

You missed my point but made it with your discussion, which is correct: it IS about functionality. That's WHY people care about what applications they can run versus what OS is doing it. At least for the most part: for example, when people choose MacOS they then consider what applications they will / can be using and then decide that their choice of hardware / OS-pairing is acceptable.

Those people using Chromebooks and Google online services are not caring about using Microsoft's apps.

Exactly. A large majority of Microsoft's Office users are...surprisingly...office workers. Who knew?? Mom and Pop end users don't have MS Office on their radar when they pick their new computer, "But honey, will it run Office?" isn't a common discussion. In the U.S., "Will it run TurboTax?" is a much more common concern, never mind "But how does it do when I'm on the internet?", "Will Joe Jr. be able to do his homework?", "Will it run my games?", and of course cost.

Business users are the main user of Office, and switching to Linux isn't even on the radar because of a combination of lost productivity during the switch, retraining concerns, and support questions.

I'm terribly, terribly sorry for your Linux fanaticism, but 3% of the desktop market after DECADES of trying PROVES my point. You people keep pushing and pushing and pushing the OS as if it's the savior for the average person, yet 3% market is proof that THEY DON'T CARE. They care about functionality, compatibility and support, plus a few other topics, and Linux simply can't do that for Joe Average, no matter how much you've promised that (yet failed to deliver) for decades.

A constant stream of new kernels to follow and decide if you want / need to update to; an overwhelming choice of distros to figure out based upon what functions & hardware support it provides; a learning curve that only directs you to user forum boards in hopes of finding a friendly helping hand; applications that not only have unfamiliar user paradigms but less functionality and questionable compatibility with what most other people are using...

Unix-based users JUST DON'T GET IT. Unix was hyped for the desktop...it failed (Apple's adoption of BSD, and their taming of it for the Average Joe, aside). Linux fails because of the same ARROGANCE that users want the 'superiority' of Unix / Linus OS, but then have to sacrifice on end-user application functionality and friendliness. Get a grip, they won't make that compromise - and HAVEN'T, for DECADES - but nothing changes with the Linux crowd. They're wrong, you're right, but then you wonder how your Pet Baby never gets the desktop respect you think it deserves, because "Unix!". Average Joe ALREADY has a choice for Unix-system stability - it's called MacOS - and people attuned to that go there, with far more support, far more polish, and a joyous user learning curve and end-user experience. Linux, as it stands, doesn't stand a chance against that - that can change, but hasn't, for decades.

[LionelB]

Re: functionality

> I'm terribly, terribly sorry for your Linux fanaticism, but 3% of the desktop market after DECADES of trying PROVES my point.

Um, no it doesn't, and shouting doesn't make it any more true.

Bottom line: people use Windows because that's what they get pre-installed on their (consumer or business) machine. And they're not going change OS even if they know they can (which the vast majority probably don't), because they have no motivation, nor the tech knowledge* to do so. It really is as simple as that. The same holds for Linux. It's not going to gain a substantial slice of the desktop market until such time (if ever, and for whatever reason) as it is comes pre-installed on commercially-marketed consumer machines. The same has been true of Windows, MacOS and ChromeOS, and indeed iOS and Android in the mobile phone sector. It has virtually nought to do with the quality of the OS or available software.

See also my earlier post below.

_{* If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine was any simpler than the reverse case, I've got news for you...}

[Anonymous Coward]

If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine was any simpler than the reverse

Indeed. Someone of my acquaintance recently installed Windows on his (fairly unremarkable) linux PC, specifically because they decided to want to play a game that is very Windows specific. They could have bought the PC with windows pre-installed, but at the time it didn't seem either necessary or competitively priced.

Amusingly - I suppose - the windows usb boot/install image we downloaded didn't work (missing media drivers, it claimed); and we had to use a couple of linux-based workarounds involving fun command-line furtling to actually get Windows onto the desired partition. One of which was to format the partition as ntfs, because even that was apparently beyond the powers of the installer.

Naturally, the install, which was based entirely on the usb image's contents - when booted, worked fine without extra drivers.

I suppose our experience might be an outlier, but it's one that the like of which has never occurred to me when installing linux on various things for over 25 years. And even though I myself am admittedly very penguin, I really cannot understand how MS hasn't got something as core as a basic install from usb right...

[LionelB]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine ...

Yeah, I experienced something like that, admittedly some years back (probably Windows 7 or 8). The hard drive hosting the original Windows installation had died, so having purchased a new unformatted drive, we attempted to reinstall from CD(s). The problem, as I recall, was a missing network card driver. Ended up having to download the network driver on a different machine, burn it onto CD, and then commenced a protracted faff trying to get the semi-functional half-installed Windows to actually read the CD and write the driver to somewhere it could find it again and complete the installation. Eventually got it working, but never want to go there again...

Doesn't sound like it's got a whole lot better.

[43300]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine ...

The Windows installer not having the required network card drivers is an irritation which has cropped up periodically for years. What is more recent (and more annoying) is it not having the storage drivers so it can't see the SSD. This used to be very rare (and normally it involved RAID controllers), but now it's common - the latest clean (Microsoft) W11 installer cannot see the SSD on recent Dell Latitudes, and it's necessary to download the driver installer from the Dell site and extract the relevant files from it, then pull them in off a USB stick (could probably slipstream them - I've not bothered as we don't process enough laptops for it to be worth the effort). This is all pretty poor!

[chriskno]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine ...

None of this is poor for 99.9999% of users who aren't interested in that sort of furtling. Linux in the consumer space is for furtlers and there aren't many out there.

[43300]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine ...

I think you'll find that more than 0.0001% of Windows machines are sold to businesses, many of whom will want to do exactly this sort of thing!

Try to get a new machine with a clean Windows install without any crap (including trial versions of Office) - it's nearly impossible. We've found that trying to deploy them with Intune using the preinstalled image gives loads of trouble - in theory Intune should customse the preinstalled Office trial according to the config specified in Intune, but in practice this frequently doesn't work properly. It's not worth the hassle - we now just wipe and clean install everything straight out of the box.

[LionelB]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine ...

> None of this is poor for 99.9999% of users who aren't interested in that sort of furtling.

Of course not, because they don't have to. Their machine came with Windows preinstalled. That was the entire point of the thread your're responding to.

[Teknix314]

Re:

You can reformat into ntfs using the windows usb boot installer. If not you can use the usb to boot into command prompt and do it that way quite easily.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: You can reformat into ntfs using the windows usb boot installer

I am not going to say you can't, but we saw no way to do that, or any similarly useful thing. We could see a choice of install or repair - but it wouldn't do an install, and there was nothing to repair; and none of the "repair" options seemed of any use. Further, the "i-cant-do-that" error messages we got were so vague as to be useless to us (e.g. it did not say what "media drivers" it thought were missing, so we could find them and add them). I'd have been more than happy to format to ntfs - or any other miscellaneous config and/or setup - from the usb boot stick / command prompt had it been apparent.

It's not like we /wanted/ to muck about doing a tediously complicated via-linux install following some method found only after far too much time spent search for something that worked...

[Martin-73]

Re: You can reformat into ntfs using the windows usb boot installer

Yes, like everything MS, when it works as planned, it's seamless, but when it doesn't, it's unhelpful.

With Linux, the errors should they occur are often informative, and if not, they're googlable. MS tends to alter stuff for no reason so fixes that come up on a search are often out of date.

Have a beer because weekend, and to wash the memory away

[DiViDeD]

Re: You can reformat into ntfs using the windows usb boot installer

The most informative error "message" I got from a recent install of Win 11 Pro was:

Oops! something seems to have gone wrong :(

Hold on while we try to fix it for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Re:

Yes you can, but it is not easy or intuitive for Jack or Jill computer user who have probably never in their life seen a command line.

[Richard 12]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine was any simpler...

Because nobody does it anymore

Everyone buys Windows pre-installed by the OEM, or uses their corporate disk image.

The OEMs use their "corporate" disk image.

So in reality, the only method actively used is a disk image.

There's a ridiculously hard to use tool for creating the images, which Microsoft have absolutely no reason to bother improving because nobody is going to refuse to use Windows because it takes a week to sort out the corporate image.

Apple is worse of course, as macOS is only legally available pre-installed.

Linux has really good installers because it has to!

[43300]

Re: If you thought installing Windows from scratch on a Linux machine was any simpler...

A clean install and then deploy the programs and settings via Intune is actually often the better option now - much more flexible than an image and multiple variants van easily be deployed, rather than needing multiple images (and having to keep them all updated).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: functionality

I am into computers and have been since childhood. I've always had windows pcs. I decided to try Linux mint as a test. I spent 20 minutes trying to get it to do something then gave up. Linux isn't useful to the end user. The man makes a valid point. It doesn't compete with windows because the end user experience is niche and not intuitive like windows is. Mac OS is also niche. Android fixed Linux by making the end user experience intuitive and preinstalling it on devices. Both points are valid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Linux isn't useful to the end user.

There is not one "end user". There are many types of end users, and they will have different ideas of "useful", some of which ideas overlap with other users, and other ideas which do not. They will also have "intuitions" about computer operations with a similar diversity.

It could be argued that "Linux isn't useful to most end users". But whether one agrees with such statements or not, the unitary "end user" you refer to does not exist. Your argument is not helped by pretending that it does.

[Updraft102]

Re: Linux isn't useful to the end user.

I'm an end user. I'm using Linux now to read this comment. Linux seems pretty useful to me.

[RegGuy1]

Re: Linux isn't useful to the end user.

Me too. :-)

[Task 1 whenever I get a new laptop: format c: -- there, the virus is gone. Whoop!]

[georgezilla]

Re: functionality

" ... I spent 20 minutes trying to get it to do something then gave up ... "

I'm willing to bet that is because you don't actually understand what ............. "It's not Windows" ................... actually means. And when you tried to do Window's type things ( which is ALL you know how to do ), they didn't work. Surprise! No shit.

Installing Linux is really very simple. Find a distro with a live version, put it on a thumb drive, boot the thumb drive and give it a test drive. If it found everything and it works, there's likely an icon on the desktop that says "install". Click it, answer 3, maybe 4 questions and LEAVE. When you come back, remove the thumb drive and reboot. And unless you messed with shit you didn't understand, you have a working system.

It didn't work? Find someone, anyone that understands the meaning of ....................

"It's not Windows!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: functionality

@georgezilla

I quote "Installing Linux is really very simple. Find a distro with a live version, put it on a thumb drive, boot the thumb drive and give it a test drive. If it found everything and it works, there's likely an icon on the desktop that says "install". Click it, answer 3, maybe 4 questions and LEAVE. When you come back, remove the thumb drive and reboot. And unless you messed with shit you didn't understand, you have a working system."

That is simple? Really? Get fucked. You have obviously never done a clean install of either Windows or macOS. And as for your remark about messing with shit that lesser Gods than you don't understand? Your arrogance is breathtaking.

You stick with your fartarseing around with your O/S. the rest of us will just use our machines and get on with it.

I grew out of the "my operating system is better than yours" thing back in the early 80's.

[katrinab]

Re: functionality

Sure, a clean install of MacOS on Apple hardware is very painless, because there is a limited range of supported hardware configuration options to support. On anything else, it is extremely complicated to get it working.

Windows is definitely more complicated to install than the majority of Linux distros.

[LionelB]

Re: functionality

> That is simple? Really?

Yes, it really is - and if you think otherwise you should not be allowed anywhere near a computer.

Of course what's even simpler is buying a PC with Linux preinstalled - y'know, like your PC came with Windows preinstalled.

> You have obviously never done a clean install of either Windows ...

I have. It was a car-crash (see my earlier post).

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Re: functionality

Yes, Linux is useful to the end user.

In my case, it's useful for doing 3D graphics i.e. modelling, rendering, texturing yada yada, editing raw photographs, video editing plus all the usual banal stuff like web surfing, etc.

20 minutes you say?

That's some quality time with an OS.

[Yankee Doodle Doofus]

Joe was sent to a special prison...

The white zone is for loading and unloading only. If you gotta load or unload, go to the white zone.

[navarac]

Re: functionality

Within 20 minutes, you should have been able to install the OS (simple - just follow the prompts) and load all the software (harder using the terminal). Obviously no staying power - it would certainly take far longer installing Windows 11 with all of its catch questions.

[Updraft102]

Re: functionality

Installing Windows 11 from scratch on a typically equipped PC won't even work unless you download the Intel RST driver and have it ready when Windows is unable to find any drives. Most PCs come with RST mode enabled and in some you cannot turn it off... and each of these will choke the moment you start the USB installer.

If you don't have a recovery partition (as you wouldn't when installing from scratch), all of the various drivers and what not you need to operate things will be missing. Your touchpad on a laptop may not work without the i2c drivers. Device Manager will be full of those horrible yellow bang symbols.

Once you get all that sorted, then you need to start undoing all of the stupid stuff MS puts in... the ads, the promos, the unwanted tie-ins and downloaded apps you never asked for.

It's quite tedious compared to installing Linux, which is straightforward and simple. It sees the drives without an issue, you pick one, start the process, it finishes pretty quickly, and then you use it. All the drivers are installed and working, and there are no ads or Candy Crush things to get rid of.

I used to use Windows, and I've been blissfully Windows free for most of the years since I left, but recently I had some experience with installing and configuring Windows (11), and... wow, it's really bad. Even once it's running and no longer has to be wrangled into position, I look at it and wonder how people put up with this crap.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

"If you don't have a recovery partition (as you wouldn't when installing from scratch), all of the various drivers and what not you need to operate things will be missing."

Even reinstalling W10 from a restore image isn't a bundle of fun either.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

" I spent 20 minutes trying to get it to do something then gave up."

Rather vague. What were you trying to get it to do?

[Erik Beall]

Re: functionality

I love how you concluded Android fixed one of the two major reasons preventing uptake, by forcing it on users...

[Martin-73]

Re: functionality

You have the same experience I had. What you need to do with Linux Mint is forget the windows paradigm... then it's simpler.

Windows is Niche also, it's just that you (and I) are used to it.

[kmckaig]

Re: functionality

Both my son who is 20 and a friend/co-worker of mine have installed and are using Linux for themselves. My friend was/is a Windows user and my son has never used anything other than Chromebooks.

My friend is now using Blender and PrusaSlicer on a decade-old ThinkPad to run his 3D printer and my son is using his $200 bargain laptop to play retro games on Steam. Both required very minimal assistance from me, who has been using Linux every day since 2012.

Also, my wife's computer has been Linux since I bought it for her, first Kubuntu and now Debian with KDE Plasma. Loves it and has needed minimal help using it in almost three years. She is not tech savvy in any way.

Just because you lack any determination at all to learn something that isn't Windows doesn't scale to the rest of humanity.

[CAPS LOCK]

Re: functionality

This anecdote seems unlikely to me. I suspect a Microsoft Reputation Manager at work...

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

I suspect a Microsoft Reputation Manager at work

FTFY

[AJ MacLeod]

Re: functionality

Remember when Windows 8 came out and once you'd made the mistake of opening a program you suddenly found there was no obvious way out and no obvious way to shut down the PC without pressing the physical power button? What about the Mac method of ejecting floppies back in the old days... drag them to the bin. As for Android... how do I get to the full list of installed apps on most launchers; somehow I should just intuitively know to swipe up from beyond the bottom edge of the screen?

I've yet to see a computer desktop interface that is actually intuitive - some are less logical than others (and Windows is high up that list - which of the many control panels do I need to go into to do X?) but none of them is intuitive.

That said, this particular user has found Linux to be invaluable for the past quarter of a century...

[Chronos]

Re: functionality

It has *always* been because of preinstallation. MS knew this right from the start, right from the 8086 clones, that getting the user from first boot means they'll stay with what's familiar. It goes back even further; remember the arguments we had about the BASIC on the Speccy vs. the BASIC on the C64? Don't get me started on the Beeb...

Quite frankly, nobody cares about operating systems outside of these hallowed halls. They're not religions, they're a means of abstracting the hardware and then, ideally, staying the hell out of the way. Most don't, and I include many of the "desktop environments" penguiney in this critique.

[43300]

Re: functionality

"Bottom line: people use Windows because that's what they get pre-installed on their (consumer or business) machine. And they're not going change OS even if they know they can (which the vast majority probably don't), because they have no motivation, nor the tech knowledge* to do so. It really is as simple as that."

That only really applies to home users and the smallest businesses. Larger businessers will set up whatever they want on the computers, and mostly this will be WIndows: it's what the users know and it runs the software required: most business software is geared around Windows, and in particularly anything financial tends to have heavy Excel integration, Business IT departments could stick whatever compatible OS was required on there, but the fact is most don't install Linux - it's usually Windows, and I don't see that changing in the near future.

[LionelB]

Re: functionality

Well, my point still stands: PC users at work as well as home get what's preinstalled on their machine. Sure, I might have remarked that in the workplace there is almost certainly no option to change even if you wanted to.

And yes, MS exploited their hegemony on PC hardware very effectively to lock the business world into their software, and I don't see that changing anytime soon either - unless perhaps MS overplay their "cloud" hand (and pricing) to the point that it starts to make financial sense for business to bite the bullet and begin to disengage their MS dependencies*. But I'm not holding my breath.

_{* My own workplace (an academic institution) dived gleefully into MS's pocket about five years ago - since which time the IT infrastructure and support has become steadily and progressively more dysfunctional. It wasn't broke, didn't need fixing and IT costs have soared. I die a little every time some new crappy cloudy "solution" is foisted upon us. And don't even get me started on Outlook and Teams...}

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

"it's what the users know"

It's probably all the IT departments know as well.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

"You missed my point but made it with your discussion, which is correct: it IS about functionality."

I think you missed mine.

You don't need MS Office to provide the office functionality that users want.

Let me repeat that in case you missed it.

You don't need MS Office to provide the office functionality that users want.

People are discovering this. Having paid (via their H/W purchase) for Windows which doesn't provide the functionality itself they find that Microsoft are demanding either a very expensive four-year-old product or rent to add that functionality. They then discover they can actually get the functionality they want for free elsewhere. What's the value proposition of Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: functionality

What's the value proposition of Windows?

Familiarity.

It's the same "computer" that their friends and family have. It does the same stuff, they can phone their kids and ask how to make something work, and get an easy answer.

Linux is different, and so they don't want it. Even if they can do the same stuff.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

Use KDE. Put some Microsoft-style artwork on the splash screen. Tell the user it's W12. They might get a bit suspicious noticing that the menu layout is more logical and it's not trying to sell stuff all the time but it won't be any more unfamiliar than any new Windows version. Familiarity? How do you explain W8? How does anyone explain W8?

[georgezilla]

Re: functionality

So "other" is bad? Just because it's other.

Now where the hell have I heard that before? ( Pppssstttttt..............I live in "Merica". )

[mirachu]

Re: functionality

Microsoft keeps breaking that "familiarity". Linux desktop environments are more likely to stay stable.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

My sister-in-law has a laptop running W7 which keeps nagging her to upgrade. Despite having a degree in physics long ago she's quite technology-timid I have a laptop which came with W10 which I'd converted to Linux only but when I retired it as the daily driver I restored W10* and set it up as dual boot. So a couple of weeks or so ago I took it along for her to look at what she might get if we ran the 7>10 upgrade. She decided against it. W10 was too unfamiliar to this W7 user.

* Always make a restore drive when you convert a Windows machine to Linux. If it develops a non-fatal H/W fault it might be best to have it running Windows when you take it back to the sop.

[Updraft102]

Re: functionality

That was when I left Windows too.

I am not one who loves change for the sake of change. If it is change for the better, that's great, but change that doesn't improve anything is bad change, as is (of course) any change that makes things worse, as is the norm.

I used Windows from 3.0 in 1990 to 7 in 2015-6. What finally got me to move was the massive amount of change in Windows 10. Linux was in many ways closer to the pre-8 Windows than any Windows since has been. I use KDE, with the cascading menus and everything... much like the Win95 menu, but implemented much better. It's what it should have evolved to, and maybe what it would have if MS didn't keep reinventing the wheel for marketing purposes.

[Martin-73]

Re: functionality

KDE recommended twice in this thread for windows user... I may install that on me olde netbooke

[43300]

Re: functionality

Hope she's not using this W7 device for online banking / shopping!

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

I'm afraid she is. However having had somebody from Microsoft phone her up a good while ago (followed by her calling me) she is pretty careful.

Ideally I'd like to get her running Linux. I have a cousin in law who years back got an email apparently from someone she new (I never explored the ins and outs of that) with a rather primitive ransomware on it. All the ransomware did was to write out the encrypted versions and delete the old ones. Photorec recovered everything. In fact it recovered far too much including all the little gifs etc from the browser cache. I just repartitioned the disk, installed Zorin with the old C drive available as another partition. She's perfectly happy with that.

The only real issues since are that Thunderbird updated its address book format to sqlite without automatically migrating the data and she sometimes gets the Epson printer offline.

[DiViDeD]

Re: functionality

Back in the days of the Last Great MS Office Overhaul, I was tasked with training the office staff (especially Accounts staff, PAs and secretaries) on the wondrous new world of The Ribbon.

The accounts guys had Excel workbooks with custom menus which were no longer supported, and they were faced with trying to recreate their old menus in that bloody Ribbon xml - they were beancounters, not developers. And "why isn't there an option for Range on the Insert menu anymore? Oh it's now in the Formulas menu. For why?

And PAs and secretaries who knew Word and Outlook backwards were like fish out of water for months!

I remember a sharp uptick in water cooler conversations that started with "have you seen this thing called Open Office? It's more like our old Office..."

[doublelayer]

Re: functionality

"You don't need MS Office to provide the office functionality that users want."

I think that might be missing their original point, and I'd like to say right now that I use both Linux and LibreOffice, so I'm aware that the sentence I'm quoting is correct. However, I don't think that's what they were arguing against. A lot of users who are interested in an application aren't particularly focused on office software in general or Microsoft Office in particular. Many users have something else they care more about, and they may be content using either Microsoft or Google's cloud-based offerings which work fine from Linux or they are in the group of users for whom LibreOffice is completely capable of doing what they want. However, there are users who want other kinds of software that are less available on Linux. What makes this harder to generalize is that there isn't as much software that nearly everyone will use frequently, but there are lots of types that some people use very often, often enough to make an OS decision based on it.

One example that I'm more familiar with is audio production and editing. There are some programs that do that on Linux. For basic audio editing, there are tools for it. I would have no problem cutting or mixing some things on my Linux PC. For more complex things, people tend to use rather large and expensive programs like ProTools (Mac and Windows), which is probably the most popular, or one of a few commercial alternatives which also target one or both of those platforms. They then add additional plugins which are also commercial and proprietary, and those don't target Linux either. Even when someone uses a program like Ardour, which provides some of the features of the large DAWs, they find that the extra functionality that is added by plugins are unavailable on Linux. Depending on what they want to do, they may learn to work without that and learn the new interface, but people tend not to want to, especially if they need that for their job.

It's not just that. I've heard arguments about Adobe photo editors versus GIMP. I don't do that, so I don't know about the power or usability differences. There are probably other categories of software that some people want, and this is a situation where Linux doesn't have as many options because a lot of proprietary companies don't target Linux. Many users don't object to running proprietary software, but companies often assume that Linux users will, and the market share is small enough that they ignore us. I don't have a simple solution to this, but if we're going to discuss it, know that it's really not about Office, except for some heavy users of Excel for which LibreOffice doesn't have perfect compatibility.

[Spanners]

Re: functionality

You don't need MS Office to provide the office functionality that users want.

At both School and university, my daughter was lied to about that. She was repeatedly told that Whatever Open Office, or anything else, said Word documents and Excel spreadsheets could ONLY be made by genuine MS Office. Use of anything else would be obvious and would result in a fail.

As was no doubt intended by Microsoft, this has resulted in her having her own 365 account and she will be paying them far more money than is reasonable. I do pay Google a monthly cstorage fee - £1.59 for cloudspace. Their, perfectly cromulent, suite is free.

If you are doing anything remotely confidential, none of them are remotely adequate. The only satisfactory means is encrypted and physical in a secure building with thermite autodestructs with every HDD. Google gets to see my holiday trips, bad poetry and any books that I might be writing. If it was possible to make any money from that, I already would have. They just don't get so much of my money or to lock me into their system.

[wintergirl]

Re: functionality

In these cases, the university should provide the necessary software. I've just completed a degree and an Office 365 account was provided by the university for the duration of the course, as was access to the other required specialist software (in my case, the Esri GIS stuff), plus the Adobe suite (Photoshop etc). I've never heard of a case of a university requiring students to go out and purchase essential software needed to complete their course.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: functionality

"At both School and university, my daughter was lied to about that. She was repeatedly told that ... Word documents and Excel spreadsheets could ONLY be made by genuine MS Office. Use of anything else would be obvious and would result in a fail."

Translation: "We don't have time to deal with any compatibility issues, so just don't go there, okay?"

Once upon a time I'd have been pissed off by that, but now my older, grizzled self, who's done plenty of time on the user-support hell desk, has to reluctantly concede that it's a defensible policy: it makes a whole class of support issues Just Go Away.

Whether their first statement is a lie hinges on whether they mean "could ONLY be made" to be about possibility or permission -- "can" vs. "may". If it's the former, then yeah, their statement is false, but if it's the latter, the question doesn't really arise.

As for whether there are in fact compatibility issues, it's been quite some years since I've had to deal with it -- in connection with OpenOffice -- but back then, the compatibility was mediocre. The basics worked, but fancy formatting? Nope. I know that LibreOffice has put a lot of effort into improving things since then. But MS Office is a moving target -- it's to MS's advantage to make it one, as your story amply demonstrates -- so it's hard to imagine compatibility *ever* being perfect. The same presumably applies to any other alternative software one might care to name.

[nightflier]

Re: functionality

In that case, it is not enough to just specify "Genuine Microsoft Office (purchased and activated)". You have to insist on a specific version and a specific OS. Different versions of MS Office are not compatible with each other.

[Kevin Johnston]

Re: functionality

I recall in the past before the Lotus products died a death there were repeated updates from MS which were specifically designed to break any compatibility. Sadly that mindset has never gone away

[43300]

Re: functionality

The norm these days is the subscription version, which auto updates itself so all installs will be on the same version. They've made the one-off purchase versions progressively more difficult to buy and install, and they are only guaranteed to work (allegedly!) with the Microsoft cloudy services for a limited time.

One option, if they check metadata, might be to sign up for a free online Microsoft account, which will include the cloudy verssions of Office, then upload files created in Libre Office to them and re-save as a new file (admittedly I've not checked what that does to the metadata).

[Cliffwilliams44]

Re: functionality

Word vs Writer the compatibility is good, never ran into any issues but I don't do anything that complicated.

Excel vs Calc is a whole different animal. Calc has many, many incompatibilities, Tables don't exist in Calc^ and if you open a workbook created in Excel with tables they will lose all formatting in Calc. Datasets and PowerQuery are non-existent in Calc and do no work. So if you have any Excel PowerUser they cannot migrate to Calc.

Re: Linux desktop, this is the crux of the biscuit! If MS released a Linux compatible version of Office, then this might allow Linux to make inroads, but we all know that won't happen.

This has been brought up time and again on the Libra support lists/forums and the Libra team is adamant about "you don't need tables" of some such like this. They don;t see it as an issues and that there is one of the greatest hurdles Linux has to overcome! The "stupid arrogance of the development team that they NO BETTER than the end user!"

[katrinab]

Re: functionality

Also, spillable functions are not supported in Calc. I use them very extensively.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

Translation: "We don't have time to deal with any compatibility issues, so just don't go there, okay?"

I think the real translation is "We work for a cheap employer who will only employ people who 'know a bit about IT'. Windows and Office are all we know."

[Number 39]

Re: functionality

My malicious compliance would be to use office 97.

[James O'Shea]

Re: functionality

You _do_ know that Office 97 will work in Win 10, don't you? The installer won't work (and neither will the installers for Office 2000 and 2003) but if you can figure a way to get it on the system it will, mostly, kinda-sorta, run. I know one guy who absolutely refused to move from Office 2003, and has been doing ever more elaborate hacks to get it to work on newer versions of Windows. I just let him know that he's on his own for support, the younger guys in the office back off slowly when 20-year-old software is mentioned. And he's responsible for getting it to read DOCX etc files, there was an extension that provided compatibility, I have no idea if it still works or where to find it, nor do I care.

[jake]

Re: functionality

"You _do_ know that Office 97 will work in Win 10, don't you?"

No, as a matter of fact I did not.

But I do know that Libre Office runs perfectly on Slackware 15.0, and reads/writes Office 97 files quite nicely ... unlike Office 362 (or whatever Redmond's marketing department has decided to call it this week).

[James O'Shea]

Re: functionality

Around here, the school will usually provide a 'free' Office Education account. They are good for four years; they used to be renewable, now not so much, but it's trivial to just get a new one instead... if you still have anything to do with an educational institution. At the place I do adjunct instruction for, the Office account can be installed on four devices without complaining. Guess how I know.

In addition, the school puts a copy on every school computer, including the ones they lend to students. All students (and staff and faculty, even peons like adjuncts) get Official School Accounts. I have an Official School Laptop, which has the Official School Account installed. I have access to multiple school desktops, all of which can have the Official School Account, all I have to do is log in with my school ID. I also have the other account, installed on my home desktops (one Mac, one Win10) my laptop (Win10) and my iPad Pro. And I have the office account as well. I have, for example, four OneDrive accounts, three 'business' and one 'personal'. The 'business' accounts are the school account, the office account, and a school account for a place I no longer work at, it's been a year and they haven't turned it off yet, the installer for Office still works, too; the 'personal' account is my Office Education account. Apparently you can have unlimited 'business' accounts but just one 'personal' account, I had OneDrives available from other places, including OneDrives which shipped with the desktop and laptop, but turned them off as There Can Only Be One.

In any case, unless the school is taking the piss, your daughter should not have to pay a penny.

Meanwhile, it is correct that many formatting settings in LibreOffice and _especially_ in OpenOffice have problems with MS Office. Every now and again I install either or both and test them; they still manage to mangle certain DOC, DOCX, and most especially PPTX documents, and they do it in predictable ways and have been doing it since at least the days of Office 2010. I have reported the problem to both LibreOffice and Microsoft; in both cases, the report sank without a trace. (LibreOffice is at https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/enter_bug.cgi?format=guided; it's incredibly difficult and annoying to report bugs to MS... and then the daft buggers just ignore you. Why, it's almost as if they don't give a fuck.)

I have no idea who causes the problem, MS or LO/OO. I just note that there were problems moving from Office 2004 (Mac) and Office 2008 (Mac) to Office 2010 (Windows), problems mostly fixed with Office 2011 (Mac), and a good thing too, as there was no Mac version of Office 2013 and the next Mac version was 2016. I know that if you have complex documents, including tables, tables of content, tables of authority, indexes, and multiple images (such as, oh, a 175 page annual report, and yes, there's a reason why I pick that particular example), LO/OO barf all over.It's not that particular original document, subsequent documents also caused barfage. As I said, it's quite predictable. Note that Google Docs and Apple iWorks do NOT have this problem; indeed, a way to get Office 2004 or 2008 files to work properly in Office 2010 was to run them past iWorks first, just open them and save them in DOCX or PPTX or XLSX. Problem goes away.No, I can't explain it.

Note that I have a _lot_ of iWorks documents... and both MS Office and LO/OO can't handle them properly, if at all. But iWorks can read MS Office and LO/OO documents...

Frankly, I am about to stop even trying with LO/OO, it's been over a decade and the problem persists. I'll just be using MS Office, or iWorks, and have done.

[jake]

Re: functionality

What a clusterfuck you have built for yourself.

If you just want to use it to do work, Libre Office is fine for probably well over 95% of use cases.

If you go looking for problems, you will most assuredly find them.

[M man]

Re: functionality

Android is due to be merged with chromos.

This will make it a desktop os.

And one that may offer the best of both worlds.

Local Android components when needed that seemlessly convert to much more powerful remote version when connectivity picks up.

This seemlessness might be the holy grail of the web os.

[Updraft102]

Re: functionality

That would make it the worst desktop OS on the market. Phones and PCs are too different to be covered by a single UI. Hasn't the lesson of 8/10/11, Unity, and GNOME 3 sunk in yet?

[43300]

Re: functionality

Some of the higher end Samsung phones have a function (think it's called Dex?) which allows them to be connected to a full size monitor / keyboard / mouse, and presents a full desktop. Never used it, but someone at work who I would regard as very IT literate had done and reckoned it was OK for basic use.

[Gerhard Mack]

Re: functionality

"Will it run TurboTax?"

I use TurboTax to file my taxes and it works fine on Firefox/Linux. I have not installed anything in years.

[C R Mudgeon]

Re: functionality

Of all the things not to store in the cloud, my financial and medical information are at the top of my list.

To each their own, but for me personally: doing my taxes on a web app? No. Just no.

[Gerhard Mack]

Re: functionality

You would rather do it on a PC, which feeds data to the web app that in turn feeds data to the government? Unless you are doing it on paper, all you are doing is adding a layer on top of the web app. Strangely I trust the mail system even less than I trust the cloud.

[JimboSmith]

Re: functionality

“ Unix-based users JUST DON'T GET IT. Unix was hyped for the desktop...it failed (Apple's adoption of BSD, and their taming of it for the Average Joe, aside). Linux fails because of the same ARROGANCE that users want the 'superiority' of Unix / Linus OS, but then have to sacrifice on end-user application functionality and friendliness. Get a grip, they won't make that compromise - and HAVEN'T, for DECADES - but nothing changes with the Linux crowd. They're wrong, you're right, but then you wonder how your Pet Baby never gets the desktop respect you think it deserves, because "Unix!". Average Joe ALREADY has a choice for Unix-system stability - it's called MacOS - and people attuned to that go there, with far more support, far more polish, and a joyous user learning curve and end-user experience. Linux, as it stands, doesn't stand a chance against that - that can change, but hasn't, for decades.”

Yeah except if you want to use MAC OS you have to use the Apple Hardware which is a bit on the pricey side. Yes I know you can create a Hackintosh but that’s hardly a “joyous user learning curve” creating one of those. Plus I wouldn’t call Finder a great “end-user experience” either, but it might appeal to some people.

Mom and Pop end users don't have MS Office on their radar when they pick their new computer, "But honey, will it run Office?" isn't a common discussion. In the U.S., "Will it run TurboTax?" is a much more common concern, never mind "But how does it do when I'm on the internet?", "Will Joe Jr. be able to do his homework?", "Will it run my games?", and of course cost.

Now most people aren’t even aware that there is another operating system they can use on their computer. Have you tried to buy a PC without Windows pre installed? Difficult isn’t it, and nigh on impossible on the high street. My last laptop had Windows pre installed and part of the purchase price was paying for that. I’d rather have had a cheaper laptop than pay to have a copy of windows I don’t want or need.

Windows 11 is painful to use and if I didn’t have to use it at work I wouldn’t. That was released far too early, without everything working correctly and some redesigned programs that are worse to use than their predecessors.

[hoola]

Re: functionality

And this is where the article is failing. Lumping all the mobile & tablet OS types together rather misses the point on how people use the end devices.

Tablets and mobiles are devices mostly used for consumption not creation.

A full OS is primarily used for creation, that latter is Windows iOS & Linux. What ever people on El Reg think, Linux is never going to be the primary OS of choice because for the average user it is too complicated.

You cannot go to your local retailer or online and buy a laptop with Linux preinstalled. It is as simple as that.

Now look at all the distributions and this is where Linux is it's own worst enemy, You don't install "Linux". You have to find a distribution and then install it, With Windows, iOS & Chrome the devices makes the choice.

Yes the Apps matter and for the average user they are going to take what they are familiar with and what works. For Office that is O365. The average user simply does not want to try various free offerings that may or may not work and frequently have issues with formatting.

As far as education is concerned, establishments want a simple one-stop-shop and only Microsoft of Google offer those. Google made inroads because they gave away the devices.

People commenting on the Register see the Linux/Windows debate from their own perspective as expert users, not the average user. It does not matter how easy we perceive installing Linux is, you need expertise to do it and mess around with dual boot or destroying the default OS and not being able to put it back. The average user is just not going to do it.

[jake]

Re: functionality

And yet, I've spent the last 20 years convincing people to switch to Linux. Once they make the switch, they are quite happy when they discover how it blissfully fades into the background, and they never have to think about it. Unlike Windows, which is constantly in their face, wasting their time with shit they are not interested in.

You can make all the claims in the world about how this is impossible, and I'll just quietly keep on converting people. Eventually, Microsoft will be gone (all corporations are ephemeral), but FOSS by it's very nature will continue on. Do you want to go with the eventual guaranteed winner, or stick with the eventual guaranteed loser and then have to play a very fast game of catch-up when Redmond goes TITSUP, as it must?

_{[0]This Is The Sad Universal Pathology}

[MonsieurAardvark]

Re: functionality

Jake AKA Walter Mitty said:

And yet, I've spent the last 20 years convincing people to switch to Linux. Once they make the switch, they are quite happy when they discover how it blissfully fades into the background, and they never have to think about it. Unlike Windows, which is constantly in their face, wasting their time with shit they are not interested in.

I say. Bullshit.

[jake]

Re: functionality

You can say bullshit all you like, it doesn't alter reality.

[Updraft102]

Re: functionality

"You cannot go to your local retailer or online and buy a laptop with Linux preinstalled."

I went online and bought a Dell XPS 13 with Linux preinstalled a few years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: functionality

Yep but the cheapest machine Dell supply with Ubuntu installed is ~£800 whereas the cheapest Windows one is ~£420.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: functionality

Linux is never going to be the primary OS of choice because people are told, by people who haven't used it but have themselves been told, that for the average user it is too complicated.

And yet, those of us here who have switched very non-technical people from Windows to Linux for various reasons know that those people do not find it too complicated at all, nor do they find it that different from Windows.

[Number 39]

Re: functionality

The lack of apps could be mitigated by including an android system out of the box (or preferably as a choice on install).

[Wzrd1]

Re: functionality

The functionality goes away with cloud based craplets when the connectivity goes away.

I'm sure that Corporate types will love an outage resulting in paychecks for the now idle, as no apps are available for them to grind money out for the company.

Meanwhile, I'll happily be chilling, using my LibreOffice, Thunderbird and well, actual applications on my desktop, be it running Linux or *BSD.

I do keep one Windows box alive here, that for my wife's glucometer. She's dead, so my need for that interface is just as deceased.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: They'll try

It won't fly, we can agree on that. But I see many businesses falling for Microsoft's marketing talk...until they start receiving the invoices.

Consumers? No way! They'll all move over to Linux Mint.

[Anonymous Coward]

@StrangerHereMyself - Re: They'll try

I simply do not agree with you.

Moving to Linux is like quitting smoking. All those who wanted to do it they've already done it and those remaining will never do it.

Oh, and Microsoft will have it its way. They have an obligation to make more and more money for their shareholders, that's capitalism.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I've already postulated that at least half of all consumers wouldn't even notice if you switched them from Windows to Linux. Both operating systems work generally the same and most users have only very limited usage scenarios, mostly involving the Web, which Linux handles much better than Windows.

Also, Linux's performance is far greater since there's no need to run a CPU wasting antivirus daemon. Not to mention all the bloat and crapware Microsoft installs on Windows these days.

I'm running Linux on a 12 year old desktop and I never have a want for more performance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I've already postulated that at least half of all consumers wouldn't even notice if you switched them from Windows to Linux.

I would bet that if one of the large stores, Currys, Argos, BestBuy, FNAC or whatever your local one is, started selling PCs that came only with Linux installed and not windows, 95% of the customers would be back in a week saying "This computer is broken".

[katrinab]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Look at when the original Asus Eee PC came out. It wasn't quite 95% return rate, but it was pretty high.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Since those days people have learned that there's more than one GUI - including Android on Linux.

[Roland6]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

In some ways MS exiting the smartphone market was a blessing, people have no expectation that their mobile works like their desktop/laptop.

The problem with the desktop/laptop is branding. People are aware that Apple are different, but have been educated that everything else runs Windows.

It probably needs one of the high st. majors (Dell and HP) to do an Apple and only support a specific Linux distro. Trouble is the Linux community is good at messing things up, so will muddy the waters sowing doubt in people’s minds as the chosen distro isn’t their preferred distro.

[hoola]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

But it needs a single consistent, working release. Linux does not have that.......

Let's just say that a major retailer persuaded one of the brands to bundle a device with Linux?

Which version?

Ubuntu stands out but then all that would happen is El Reg would be full of people ranting that was wrong, it should be Mint, it should be Fedors, Manjaro.

Then we have the minor issue that the majority of consumers would not be able the install the Applications they want.

The gulf between the average users and expert user is huge.

[jake]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

"But it needs a single consistent, working release. Linux does not have that......."

Yes, actually, Linux does have that. It's called a Long Term Support (LTS) kernel.

"Let's just say that a major retailer persuaded one of the brands to bundle a device with Linux?"

Like your set-top box or telephone, for example?

"Which version?"

The latest LTS kernel, obviously[0]. That's what it is for.

"Then we have the minor issue that the majority of consumers would not be able the install the Applications they want."

Like with Windows, you mean?

_{[0] Actually, being me, I'd probably go with the latest SLTS kernel.}

[hoola]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Linux LTS is not a distribution, it is the kernel.

I cannot download and install Linux. It is simply not possible as it does not exist as a unique OS (I suppose with enough knowledge one could roll your own).

I can however download a distribution (of which there are many) and install it. Just like Windows & iOS there are different releases within each distribution, all with their subtle differences.

[jake]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

"Linux LTS is not a distribution, it is the kernel."

You said Linux, you did not specify a complete distribution. I am not a mind reader.

"I cannot download and install Linux."

I do it all the time :-)

"It is simply not possible as it does not exist as a unique OS"

Just because YOU don't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

"I suppose with enough knowledge one could roll your own"

Yep. Which is what I would do if I were selling a hardware thingie that required a full-blown OS. Select an SLTS kernel, tweak it for my specific hardware, and then bring in all the bits & bobs that I need to make Jake'sHardwareThingie fully functional.

_{If I take it to market, my toy will be a trifle less sophisticated ... in all likelihood, I'll be using an ATMega328 processor.}

[jmch]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

It used to be that people's first experience with a computer was with MS windows at their school lab or employer's office, and so that is what they expected of their home computer.

Nowadays, people's first experience with computers are tablets / phones that get shoved into their hands at an early age as proxy babysitters. For many people reaching adulthood now, they will comfortably be able to work out how Linux works without much difficulty.

[jake]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Fondling an Android phone or iPhone does NOT teach one how to properly use *nix, regardless of the underlying OS on the phone.

[jmch]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

"Fondling an Android phone or iPhone does NOT teach one how to properly use *nix"

No it doesn't and it's not what I was claiming at all. My point is that presenting someone raised only on Windows with a Linux desktop often results in WTF is this give me back my Windows. While presenting a Linux desktop to someone who has experience using multiple different interfaces will get them to poke around* here and there until they work out how to operate it. Using an interface is, of course, a very far cry from being an expert in the OS, but pretty much every Windows user is equally clueless about the nuts and bolts of Windows as well.

*Quite possibly literally - my kids have very often tried swiping at my monitor assuming it's a touchscreen!!

[jake]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

"My point is that presenting someone raised only on Windows with a Linux desktop often results in WTF is this give me back my Windows. While presenting a Linux desktop to someone who has experience using multiple different interfaces will get them to poke around* here and there until they work out how to operate it."

How many times has Microsoft changed the Windows interface in the last 25 years? Switching Windows users to Slackware+KDE (for example) is not hard.

[mirachu]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

TBF, Eeepc wasn't exactly fast. It had a first gen Atom and drivers weren't exactly mature.

[Jay 2]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I seem to recall they came in Linux and XP flavours. The Linux ones were most likely returned because people thought as it had PC in the name it would run Windows apps, which it obviously wouldn't. They XP ones may have been returned as they were horrendously underspec'd to run Windows no matter what Microsoft said.

That second point led to the netbook, in the original concept, effectively failing. As pretty much all consumers wanted something that ran Windows OK and had a suitable screen size. And so netbooks got bigger, bulkier and more expensive until they were pretty much normal laptops.

I had a Linux one and rebuilt with either Ubuntu/Mint as the default distro it came with was a right mess. It was a useful bit of kit once you could sort it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I loved my eee-pc. I saw one with windows on it once, but I was never tempted to install it myself. (I replaced the original OS with Gentoo and it was nice and quick, but given how much space it takes on my current laptop,, I have no idea how I managed it then....)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I'm still running a eeepc, loaded with Bunsen labs OS (Linux). Sits there 24/7/365 receiving incoming files acting as a device to backup files. Bunsen Labs runs fine on it. Would I use it as my main system? absolutely not, screen is too small for me. Not to mention it probably incapable of running a browser like crime.

[John H Woods]

re: ""This computer is broken"

I've heard a lot of Windows customers say that when they realize Word isn't included.

[Zolko]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

It's even more perverse as that: my Mum purchased a new laptop, and she wanted Windows because that's what she knew (or thought she knew). Duh, I couldn't talk her out of it, so it was a nice Lenovo Yoga with Windows 10. On first boot, it wanted an MS account which she didn't have. Duh ! After creating one dummy, then creating a new admin account, and deleting the fake MS-online account, she had a traditional MS-Windows PC as she wanted.

To her delight, MS-Office was already installed ... but of course only a trial version that would always ask her for an MS account, that was XX$/month. So now she uses LibreOffice and is happy. That and Zoom.

So basically, most people (I'd bet on 90%) only use 3 apps: office, web, and some video/text/image chat things (Skype, Zoom, WhatsApp ...). Which means that most people (I'd bet on >90%) have the EXACT same functionality on Linux than on Windows, except that the MS marketing has somehow convinced all those ignoramuses that anything else is "broken".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

Rookie mistake

You’re meant to install windows 10 with no internet available, when Microshit asks you to connect to internet, tell it you have no internet, it will ask you again and this should be the red flag, if Microshit are ignoring your inputted information and pestering you for the answer THEY want, then it’s probably not in YOUR best interest.

With no internet, windows 10 can’t demand you log in to or set up a windows account.

Local accounts are perfectly fine

[SundogUK]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

That no longer works on Windows 11

[Updraft102]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

Correct. It demands an internet connection, and if there is none, it just sits there and continues to wait for you to give it one.

Once online, you can still install 11 with a local account by giving it a fake email address for the Microsoft account, then letting it fail to connect. After that it will let you set up an offline account. For now.

[jake]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

"Correct. It demands an internet connection, and if there is none, it just sits there and continues to wait until you format the drive and install a non-privacy invading OS."

FTFY

[bikernutz]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

I don't like Windows 11 but have installed it to use knowing at some point family, friends or even strangers in the village who neighbours have told them will come and ask me about it and as a free source of help.

It installs fine without Internet, it installs fine with Internet on local storage or to Win2go on a USB. No need for a Microsoft account even on the basic edition. Simply use Rufus when creating the install media or switch to console and use net user /add Works easily. Would a none techie person do that - NO. But it is easy. A none techie person would just buy a new computer or take their current one to a computer service shop. I wouldn't but you could argue that Microsoft doing what they do keeps more people in work!

personally I retired early instead and still keep being 'tapped up' to help.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

"I don't like Windows 11 but have installed it to use knowing at some point family, friends or even strangers in the village who neighbours have told them will come and ask me about it and as a free source of help."

My response would be simply "Sorry, I don't know anything about Windows 11." Firstly I know that if it's any variety of Windows there'll be too much going wrong and secondly why on Earth would I want to learn something I don't know about to help those who know even less?" As with Jake, I know that if people who are having problems with Windows move over to any suitable Linux distro they will make far fewer demands on my time asking for help.

[jmch]

Re: re: ""This computer is broken"

"only use 3 apps: office, web, and some video/text/image chat things"

Absolutely!!! On my (very very) old iMac, I basically run LibreOffice, Firefox and Zoom. There are tons of other apps on it that I almost never use and can definitely do without.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

That was maybe a decade ago but these days Linux Mint works generally as good if not better than Windows.

Also, usage scenarios have changed. People only use the web for most of their daily tasks. LibreOffice comes preinstalled with Linux Mint so viewing and printing a document will work also.

Like I said, I suspect only half the PC's will be returned and most people won't even notice the difference.

[mark l 2]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

As the author of the article points out though you can walk into high street stores and buy PC with Linux pre-installed, in the form of Chromebooks.

I don't know what the return rate in on Chromebooks compared to Windows laptops, but I doubt its anything close to 95%, and yet they don't look or feel like Windows laptops to use.

People access the internet from all sorts of different devices now, my father is in his 70s and uses an Iphones, a Windows laptop and an Amazon fire tablet. So thats 3 different OS he had to learn and was for years quite a technophobe. Yet hes managed to work out how to do stuff on each device without resorting to returning any of them because it they look or work a bit differently than his other devices.

FYI i know some might argue Chromebooks are not running true GNU/Linux, But they are running a Linux kernel and can run Linux apps inside containers. So I would say they are a form of Linux distro.

[georgezilla]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

" ... would be back in a week saying "This computer is broken". ... "

At which time I would start it up, use it and then ask them ...... Broken? How? it's works just fine. And in fact it actually does. Because it's not the computer that's broken, it's the customer that is.

What if a customer buys a hammer, and comes back and tells you it's broken? Is it broken?

[Spanners]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

That is tecnically known as "non-warranty damage". I have read enough from www.notalwaysright.com to realise that there are often enough incompetent managers around to give them what they want though.

[georgezilla]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

" ... would be back in a week saying "This computer is broken". ... "

So when a Windows users buy a Mac, 95% of them bring it back saying it's broken?

Oops! there goes that argument.

Now what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Assuming that they didn't know it was a Mac, and hadn't noticed the price difference, I'd say yes.

I've seen so many Windows users sit in front of a Mac, faff around for 5 minutes, and then declare "I can't get this to work, is there a proper computer somewhere?"

[vistisen]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

That's me. I do that... I do it when I get confronted with windows 11 as well.

[georgezilla]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

" ... to make more and more money for their shareholders ... "

No that's not actually their obligation. It's to make them money. To make them a "reasonable" return on their investment. NOT obscene amounts of money.

[doublelayer]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

They have an obligation to act as their investors tell them to, since their investors will name them, vote for them, and can remove them*. Some investors will have goals other than "give me as much money as you possibly can", but a lot of them are focused on getting the cash. If I was running a company owned by others and I decided how much profit was reasonable to me, the chances are high that they, the ones with the final authority, would suggest that my idea was wrong and they want more. I could resist that for a while, and it would probably work in the short term, but as my idea of reasonable and their idea of possible started to diverge, my ability to prevent them from getting what they want would degrade.

* Well, investors who have enough of the company. Investors like you and me who don't own a lot get to live with whatever the largest investors and the strongest parts of the company decide to do, and while we have the choice only to invest in companies that pursue lower profit margins, they tend to grow less so not as many people choose to do so.

[SundogUK]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

And your point is? The shareholders own the company. You don't. You are hired help.

[mirachu]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

Moving to Linux is nothing like quitting smoking. Quitting smoking has roughly one value proposition. Moving to Linux is any number of things.

[Spanners]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

I can think of several

smoking kills

smoking is expensive

smoking makes you smelly

I bet there are plenty other values in giving up...

[druck]

Re: @StrangerHereMyself - They'll try

%s/smoking/Windows/g

[Anonymous Coward]

@Snake - Re: They'll try

Please tell what would Linux domination on the desktop bring to me as a long time Linux user ? Something that I don't have and I've been longing for ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Snake - They'll try

how about anything between $30 and $70 and over

[keithpeter]

Re: They'll try

If I could just chuck an idea into the mix here (and I have absolutely no skin in this game, I could not give a kipper's todger who 'dominates the desktop' as long as I can carry on using my stuff - see icon)

Suppose Microsoft achieves their aim of moving to a cloud based system for most people. Office people, home users, students &c.

Why would they wish to maintain a unique bare metal operating system?

Why not just have a nice lean Linux install with Wine running local apps and a Web browser for most things? Spaff a few million a year to the Wine project - or even just buy Crossover - and increase their existing donations to the Linux Foundation. Hopefully a few bob from down the back of the couch for the likes of the OpenBSD project (ssh and all).

Huge cost savings to keep the shareholders happy, shifting the whole caravanserai to new machine architectures becomes a piece of cake (Apple having done that a couple of times since their Unix adoption), much lower cross-section for anti-trust actions as people always have the option to run Linux applications native. All good.

Just a thought...

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: They'll try

"Why would they wish to maintain a unique bare metal operating system?"

Fear that punters would discover they neither need the cloud facilities nor the proprietary bare metal OS.

[3arn0wl]

Re: They'll try

There was some thought, before Windows11, that Micro$oft would rebase its GUI on the Linux kernel. I understand that there is such a beast, but it isn't for general consumer use.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: They'll try

Microsoft's been doing that for 20 years at least, just to see if it could work (and it did). But never have they contemplated putting it onto the market since they would lose their USP: a unique operating system which they can modify to suit their needs (mostly to make more profit).

[Doctor Syntax]

Windows 2025

The discussion here has prompted me to ponder the following.

Take a KDE-based Linux. Set application style to MS Windows 9x, window decorations to Reactionary and colours to Windows2000 and plasma style to Arc Oxygen or Arc Color. This gives a passable overall appearance to W2K except for the icon set*. Now rummage round the KDE store for a W10-like icon set and install that (some of the other things suggested will also come from the store). Also rummage for some Windows-like splash screens, SDDM login screens etc - there's even one which says "Windows Starting". Tag Dolphin as Files Explorer, Kate as Notepad etc. Strip back a lot of the functionality that might give the game away that it's rather more than Windows but leave basic stuff like Okular**, Gwenview and, of course, an Office package.

Now show it to Windows users with a spiel along the lines of Microsoft deciding to bring out a new edition to celebrate the 25th anniversary of W2K and also trial a reversion to simpler times. I wonder how many would realise it wasn't Windows and how many would look on it as a distinctly better than current Windows.

* This, along with the Oxygen icon set, is essentially my desktop. It's conserved my desktop appearance from my last Windows through a couple of decades or so of Linux use.

** Linux lulls one into assuming that a desktop OS will just open a PDF on demand. Trying to open one on the W10 laptop mentioned elsewhere tries to sell me Foxit. W10 is really just a selling platform.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Windows 2025

"Take a KDE-based Linux. Set application style to MS Windows 9x, window decorations to Reactionary and colours to Windows2000 and plasma style to Arc Oxygen or Arc Color. This gives a passable overall appearance to W2K except for the icon set*."

And thus produce a desktop that many users, especially younger users, have never seen before :-)

I was chatting with one of the helpdesk techs at a university the other day and he barely remembers WindowsXP from back when he was a kid. 9x is pre-historic for him :-)

[doublelayer]

Re: Windows 2025

"Linux lulls one into assuming that a desktop OS will just open a PDF on demand. Trying to open one on the W10 laptop mentioned elsewhere tries to sell me Foxit. W10 is really just a selling platform."

Something has messed with the file associations. Normal Windows 10 will open that PDF in Edge by default. PDFs are common enough that I think including a reader makes sense, and that was annoying before Edge gained that power, but it works now.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Windows 2025

"Something has messed with the file associations. Normal Windows 10 will open that PDF in Edge by default."

Of course something has. Probably the H/W vendor who wants their commission selling the extra application. W10 is a great selling platform.

In fact it subsequently did open in Edge. I wonder how many modes Edge offers for presentation and copying compared to a real PDF viewer.

[doublelayer]

Re: Windows 2025

"Of course something has. Probably the H/W vendor who wants their commission selling the extra application. W10 is a great selling platform."

It's as much a selling platform as Linux would be if someone provided a version which tried to sell you a program that you already had. In short, it's not at all connected to Windows, which would not do that without the manufacturer or whatever software changed it making a decision to do so. That action is possible on any operating system, but no operating system does it on its own.

"In fact it subsequently did open in Edge. I wonder how many modes Edge offers for presentation and copying compared to a real PDF viewer."

Nobody said Edge was good at it. It has some modes, and if you want something with more features, you install it. It's there to provide basic functionality, the same way that even a basic Linux image will probably have some text editor, but you'll still install the one you want because the built-in one is there so you could fix a config file, not because it's the one you'll always want to use.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: Windows 2025

Except that no Windows programs will run on this Frankenstein creation. An operating system is merely an (empty) shell for the user. It's the applications that give it usefulness.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Windows 2025

And therein lies the difference between a typical Linux distro and the OS Windows. The Linux distro will provide you out of the box with a lot of stuff the bare OS will try to sell you. You don't need to buy this Windows compatible application if there's already something there with the functionality you need. Note I said I'd have to remove some stuff - it would need to look like a credibly bare cupboard.

[jake]

Re: They'll try

"that Micro$oft would rebase its GUI on the Linux kernel."

ESR's been babbling about this for some years now. IMO it will never happen. Too many differences in architecture to overcome. And no, WSL is NOT Windows running on the Linux kernel.

"I understand that there is such a beast, but it isn't for general consumer use."

That makes zero sense. In general, consumers don't even know the kernel exists, much less what it does. I will be perfectly happy to be shown otherwise, though ... do you have proof of this assertion?

_{Besides, the licensing suggests they'd use a BSD kernel, not a Linux kernel. See: Apple.}

[Updraft102]

Re: They'll try

BSD works when you have a limited set of hardware you need to build for. You build whatever hardware support that is missing for your intended products, and you're good to go. All the drivers and what not that you need can be built in-house when you have control over all of the hardware combinations that will be sold witjh the new os.

That will not work for Windows, which needs to run on every PC and with every bit of hardware. Linux is a whole lot closer to that than BSD, which makes Linux a better fit for a Windows-type product that needs to run on a broad variety of hardware.

The GPL presents some potential issues, but nothing that can't be overcome. History tells us that quibbles between FSF members tend to just evaporate, and MS is a platinum member now. Kinda helps sweep any such transgressions under the rug.

[Updraft102]

Re: They'll try

I have thought for years that they had some plan like this in the works. They did it with their browser, which no one would have believed 20 years ago. Any old bare metal OS can get you to the cloud, so if the cloud is the destination, why not let someone else handle most of the development and do the cloud thing the way they want to?

[JohnTill123]

Re: They'll try

It's unlikely they would be able to "buy" OpenBSD and their projects. They are a pretty independent bunch.

However, "buying" them is not needed. Under the BSD license, they can use the code for whatever they want. Indeed, Microsoft used some FreeBSD network stack code for a while (NT 3.1): https://web.archive.org/web/20051114154320/http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory%3Bsid%3D2001%2F6%2F19%2F05641%2F7357

Why would they bother to buy the cow when the milk is free?

[Groo The Wanderer]

Re: They'll try

Microsoft won't give up the market; they'll morph Windows for desktops into a cloud-client with improved graphics and gaming capabilities compared to a "standard" terminal device. There is too much money at stake, and no American company is willing to give up money or market share - it kills your stock portfolio's value.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: They'll try

The problem is Microsoft is trying to rake in even more money by bullying everyone to rent their desktop from them. People will balk at this and jump ship towards Linux Mint, which is more than good enough for at least half the Windows population if not more.

If Microsoft had just improved Windows with each release they could've milked this market for a long time, but its their greed that does them in.

[vistisen]

Re: They'll try

" the major reason that Chromebook has the market share it does, as of 2021 at 10.8%, is because of the education market."

Not so much longer in Denmark GDPR is putting a stop to Google learing about what your chiolder learn:

https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/18/denmark-bans-chromebooks-and-google-workspace-in-schools-over-gdpr/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIMh8Y6B8Frd3BmfOZNnOaqAEKg83EcRf89QcQlddR19_7ky02YyDcjT0mB2I60SPJJGV-99EYXYY6vht-s31T32PmbFr5fzFPVNxIeBQtqLs_Ssrt8SQPa_foHP9z4IiLJp9HtuyKhTsMZOgg_XAmRJtb5sNzSwlWXWQ19a8AbP

[Jo Ma Sepoes]

Re: They'll try

Linux wont be a dominant desktop for decades to come. A few key reasons:

1) It cannot handle simple configuration changes like customised locale settings and enforces strict locale standards even though many users and/or countries have diverted from the specific documented standards. In some cases this makes Linux applications incompatible with their Windows counterparts due to the inability to accept transfers of data between customised locales. (Windows allows and handles customised locales very well.) Another is a decent Remote Desktop setup that can compete with the slickness of the Windows version.

2) It still relies on the command line and a lot of Googling to do certain things which 90% of the people in the Windows world can do by clicking a mouse and being semi-computer-literate.

3) The online support environment for Linux is polluted with hostile geeks and keyboard warriors that tell the users that they are stupid or to read through tedious documentation to get simple answers.

4) I have been all for the Linux cause since the early 2000s but over the past 20 years, Linux has done little to fix many issues that have been raised by proponents and instead headed for the enthusiast route of development of new features rather than the professional route to address the issues of those who wanted to adopt Linux. Many from those days have since moved on or simply become apathetic.

Bottom line is that as much as Linux has some nice desktop designs, it still has a very, very long way to go in terms of GUI features and technical support before people will switch en masse. Most people follow what their worksplace uses and so until Linux can satisfy workplace configurations and requirements, mass adoption simply wont happen. They can't even get locale customisation right for a country like South Africa that has a case for mass adoption.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: They'll try

1) Locale is non-issue for most desktop users since most users never have the need to change it.

2) With modern Linux distro's there's no need to use the command line. I've migrated family members and acquaintances to Linux Mint who've never touched the CLI and happily use it every day!

3) As is the case with Windows almost everyone has someone in their vicinity that can solve problems for them.

I believe Linux is more than ready to takeover the desktop. At least for a sizeable chunk of the population.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: They'll try

"They can't even get locale customisation right for a country like South Africa that has a case for mass adoption."

I find it difficult to believe that there are no Linux developers in South Africa who can't generate a suitable locale and push it upstream - apart from the 8 which KDE lists for me under "Formats".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: They'll try

I have used Linux now and then, but I eventually get annoyed and give it up.

90% of the work I do is on my Pixelbook Go. I wish I could do everything on it, but I have something like 4 programs I need to run on Windows. Scrivener, Calibre, a couple health programs tied to hardware. I forgot I sometimes need Adobe Digital Editions.

I enabled Linux on my Chromebook recently. Ran into problems immediately. Following command line instructions to install something, I copied the command line text... and of course it did not work. I don't know how much time I wasted on figuring out what was wrong. I know that probably reflects on me more than anything. But I started programming in Fortran in the 70s, along the way... CP/M, DOS, OS/2, several flavors of Linux, Windows, and Chrome OS. I am not an "ordinary" user. So ubiquitous Linux Desktop, never going to happen in my opinion.

[b0llchit]

Mind you, it's going to be a much smaller PC market than the one we have today.

Right until the cloud is penetrated and all their beans get spilled. Then people want to get rid of the raining and dissolving cloud with only one way left :-)

[Cruachan]

Been saying this for years. Everyone was happy routing their email to their phones via Blackberry. Until Blackberry went down for a week or so, and the company never recovered from the loss of business that ensued.

Cloudflare is the one that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, every time they have an outage most of the internets most popular sites go too.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Cruachan: “Until Blackberry went down for a week or so, and the company never recovered”

Blackberry failed because of lack of vision and it didn't respond to competition from Android and Apple iOS. They could also got ahead of the pack by offering financial and other services and owned the whole stack.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Blackberry failed when people found out their encryption was fake and they could read all their email. And the company subsequently claimed it would hand over customers' email to authorities without even a court order.

Customers were scrambling for the exit when they found out and the company then quickly imploded.

[Anonymous Coward]

@b0llchit - Right until the cloud is penetrated...

Bad news for you here. It already happened and nothing happened.

[doublelayer]

It won't even get that far. Sure, some people pay for Office365 in the cloud, but most of those are businesses who are using that for email, chat, and also they get Office on the machines. Home users might be buying that for OneDrive, as that's relatively competitive for other cloud storage, or because they misunderstood what kinds of Office are available. However, they're going to balk at a cloud-based PC when they already have a computer and the cloud one is so ridiculously expensive. Businesses may at least have a reason to deploy VMs there, as they've been doing that for years before Microsoft came up with the idea of multiplying the price and doing the hosting themselves, but home users don't have any reason to use it and, in my experience, hold onto hardware much longer than it holds on to modernity*.

Macs are even less likely to get put in the cloud. Yes, you can rent one, and people do, but those are people who either have something Mac-specific which benefits from location in the cloud or want a Mac, but not all the time. Apple does not provide that service themselves and the authorized services don't let you run Mac OS on something other than a Mac they built. As the remaining Intel Macs get deprecated, this will become even harder to work around because one Intel processor is a lot more like the one in a Mac than any given ARM processor is like the M1-2 range. Outside of short-term rental or wanting someone else to run the power and networking, there is no advantage to a cloud Mac.

* A computer can last a long time if it's running efficient software and is regularly maintained. I have some rather old machines that are still usable. I've seen a lot of home machines that are as old as mine, but they have not been maintained and using them has started to get painful. This is usually why I'm seeing them, because I've been asked to help clean them up and make them functional again. Sometimes, it's better to replace them anyway, and the people I know aren't very eager to do so even when it's warranted. They're not going to be paying $31/month for a low-spec VM.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Why would anyone consider cloud storage where the service provider has access to their files is beyond me. I use Mega which is similar to OneDrive but which end-to-end encrypts your files, making it impossible for them or anyone else to know what files you're storing or their contents.

Mega sprouted from MegaUpload whose owners were accused of facilitating piracy. The owners are still fighting extradition over that, but notice that there haven't been any reports on pirated content on Mega even though it might be chock-full of it

[Gerhard Mack]

"I use Mega which is similar to OneDrive but which end-to-end encrypts your files"

Given how vocally pro Russian Kim Dotcom has been lately, I would be very worried about believing his security claims.

[jake]

I've been wary of Mr. Dotcom's claims since the year dot.

_{Seriously, would YOU buy a used car from the guy?}

[StrangerHereMyself]

Like I said: there haven't been any reports or court cases involving pirated or illegal content on Mega.

And the service has been operating for a decade. To me that's proof that it's secure enough.

[jake]

"Why would anyone consider cloud storage where the service provider has access to their files is beyond me. I use my local file server, which is similar to Mega or OneDrive but uses no WAN bandwidth and can end-to-end encrypt my files if I like, thus taking responsibility for my own shit."

FTFY

_{It's not like the price of local storage is at a historical high or anything ... I've seen 8TB of name-brand spinning rust for under $100.}

^{_{Note: This is NOT a backup! You DO have proper backups, right? RIGHT? RIGHT‽‽‽}}

[StrangerHereMyself]

Too much effort for most people and the rest don't even know what you're talking about. I don't want to run my own file server if there are providers with E2EE who do it for me. And they have clients for almsot every platform you can think of, including mobile.

[jake]

"Too much effort for most people and the rest don't even know what you're talking about."

And yet large external drives sell by the metric butt load. Methinks the people are figuring it out.

[doublelayer]

"Why would anyone consider cloud storage where the service provider has access to their files is beyond me."

Three reasons:

1. They don't know that.

2. They don't know what the alternative is.

3. They have looked at the alternative and found it more complex than they want.

Option 3 depends on what they're considering. For example, there is the option of self-hosting. That is nice, and it works pretty well for me, and I know how to manage the networking and configure the disks for resiliency inside a machine I built and software I installed. Not everyone knows how or wants to do those things. For example, my box is on a private network, and if I'm not on that network, I can only access it by connecting to the VPN I also set up. People who want their files accessible from anywhere but don't know how to have their own VPN endpoint are unlikely to do the same.

Alternatively, maybe they're considering some hosted service with encryption like the one you described. I've never used it, but I start wondering how key management works with this. Are you responsible for having keys on any machine that can read the files? Or does it depend on your ability to log in? If it is the latter, do you lose your data if you forget your password? If you don't, then it sounds like the encryption key is stored somewhere that's out of your control. If the data would be lost, that is a good sign that there is probably encryption, but it introduces a weakness if you need that password reset for some reason. If encryption is too easy, I start questioning its quality.

I don't use OneDrive, but I know people who do. Some may use it without thinking of the security, but others understand that it is not encrypted storage and treat it as a big, convenient, insecure disk. For a student, they aren't very worried about Microsoft taking a peek at their homework, and if their laptop breaks, they've got a copy of it that they can quickly pull down from somewhere else. There are many services that can be used for that, and doing it yourself would be nicer (and is what I did even as a student), but there is still a reason that someone might opt for it anyway.

[Spazturtle]

This might be a good thing...

because it makes it easier to block all the bloated services they keep adding to Windows.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: This might be a good thing...

Is this Poe's law at work?

[Arthur the cat]

The Wheel of Reincarnation turns

At Microsoft, we believe that the cloud will power the work of the future

And will be until the fashion is for taking it back in house because of security/privacy problems with cloud services and we'll bounce between 1 user, 1 machine and servers with many users again and again just like we have done before. The personal machines may be in your pocket or clothes or head in the future, but they'll be the new thing until they're the old thing and everyone switches back to running everything in the service fog.

[Yes, I'm old. Just call me Koheleth, or Ἐκκλησιαστής if you prefer Greek.]

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: The Wheel of Reincarnation turns

"or head in the future"

I think this could be Microsoft's head in the clouds moment.

[Anonymous Coward]

Games will run…

…locally like an Xbox sandbox. Games and Desktops generally don’t exist at the same time…

[Doctor Syntax]

Now you may say, "There's no way I'm going to 'subscribe' to a cloud version of Windows." Really? Tell me, are you running Office 2019/2021 or Microsoft 365 (formerly Office 365) at a cost of at least $70 a year? 345 million of you are already paying for Microsoft 365. The various flavors of Office 20xx? Not so many. Nothing like as many.

Various friends who now have W10 are not paying $70 or anything else to Microsoft to run Office. They have found other, free equivalent applications. And me personally? I'm running LibreOffice on Linux.

[alain williams]

Alternatives to MS applications

I am helping/telling people to install LibreOffice on their MS Windows boxes. It does what they want. The operating system is not important to them, the only other tool that most of them use is a web browser.

Some ask for help to install Linux (I suggest Mint). Typically older machines where the version of MS Windows is no longer supported.

Small numbers: but others see what is happening and follow suite. When MS starts charging real money more will move.

I do warn that there is a cost: go and get a couple of memory sticks and do backups.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Default

So Linux wins by default?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we just all lose.

M$ will never stop trying to sell you on the idea of renting all of your software, and that as a company with little traction in the hardware market (despite decent surface hardware) it dosen't care what you run it on, but it desperately wants to break the chains holding it to your hardware update cycle.

Apple could hardly be more different, as the hardware sales are the lions share of their business, and while they will be clad to sell you cloud over the top, they REALLY like selling you a shiny new watch, tablet, phone, and laptop every few years, and even when their users stretch their devices an extra couple years, they still tend replace at least one every year or two at most. Apple's play is just to converge their app and service layers so their full OS can run the same apps as their mobile OS can. The cloud is secondary in that play.

So Apple is and remains the defacto desktop Unix. Hate it as much as you like, but they are the ones picking up most of the declining windows desktop/laptop market share. Chromebooks ate netbooks, but in turn got eaten by tablets, and the market share for desktop to chromebook migrations is a fraction of the way tablets and chromebooks have traded blows.

[Anonymous Coward]

I may have to amend this if ChromeOS carries through with the newly announced changes

Splitting the core Linux OS and switching to the Linux Chrome browser code base starts to make it look a lot less mickey mouse.

Won't necessarily fix the ones running bog standard hardware, or the mass of out of support hardware that won't recive an OS update. It would make them much closer to a "real" OS, and much less dependent on their previous "only browser" services and engineering philosophy.

[georgezilla]

Re: Default

" ... So Linux wins by default? ... "

No.

Why?

People.

Ignorant people.

Lazy people.

Frightened people.

You know, people.

[ecofeco]

Re: Default

Have my upvote.

Fact.

The technical term is market inertia. The non-technical term is numpties.

[alisonken1]

Re: Default

The common clay (y/t link)

And I wish the icon were true.

[Miss Config]

"Move Windows 11 increasingly to the cloud"

As it happens, yesterday I created a Windows 11 VM on this iMac.

My 'main' version of Windows is on a HP PC.

I used the same Microsoft/Windows ID on both versions of Windows ( as proven by the fact that they both use the same mugshot of me ).

What surprised me was that several G worth of folders/files etc. were copied from the PC version to the iMac without my even thinking of asking.

Presumably that was done via OneDrive.

Serious question :

could it possibily be that folders supposedly on my own hardware are actually stored/maintained on OneDrive ?

[StrangerHereMyself]

Re: "Move Windows 11 increasingly to the cloud"

No, they are not.

[DJ900]

Re: "Move Windows 11 increasingly to the cloud"

“could it possibily be that folders supposedly on my own hardware are actually stored/maintained on OneDrive ?”

It depends on how you have configured onedrive - accept it’s default setup and you’ll find your Documents folder (and many others) are being synced to onedrive - and will appear on any new machine you configure with the same account. Still held locally, but also available in the cloud.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It depends on how you have configured onedrive

I didn't configure it but the constant nagging messages from MS, I gave in, set it up and then added some firewall rules that stopped it dead in its tracks.

I colleague had it install itself on her MacBook as part of Office. She simply deleted it. Job done.

[TrevorH]

Last time I looked Office 2019 was the last version you could install on your own computer.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Isn't everyone (at least consumers) using LibreOffice already? I am loath to pay Microsoft one iota for Office. It's a complete rip-off. That application was finished decades ago and they're only bolting on features that are hip. The last version starred Cloud connectivity.

I hear the next version of Office will have ChatGPT-like AI built-in to scam you into buying yet-one-more version of Office.

[Pascal Monett]

Unfortunately not.

A few years ago, as a partner in a small services business, we landed a contract with an organization that was building itself up on providing training for, shall we say, people in need (who didn't have the money, by far, to go and pay for a €650/day training course in the swanky spots in Luxembourg).

We set up the server, gathered the client PCs, set up the network, etc. Somebody else was tasked with making the classrooms functional.

At one point, I overheard the responsible person complaining that the cost of Office was prohibitive (yes, even the Education license, which is something they should have had no difficulty obtaining - that's the financial level of this whole thing). They had to use it on the student PCs, but they apparently wanted to avoid that on the "personnel" equipment.

So I said no problem, I can install LibreOffice for you. When I told them that it's officially free, their eyes lit up and I was the savior of the day.

A week later, I learned that they were still using Office - unregistered - because LibreOffice was "too complicated".

As I left the company shortly after and rescinded my partnership, I don't know how it all ended, so I'll just leave you to conclude on your own.

[Doctor Syntax]

"I don't know how it all ended"

Not well if they were on the receiving end of an audit.

[StrangerHereMyself]

LibreOffice has near perfect interoperability with Office formats, so how can it be "too complicated"? It works similarly. Some functions may be in a different place but I doubt there's much functionality in Office that isn't present in LibreOffice also.

[NATTtrash]

so how can it be "too complicated"?

You don't get out much do you? Interact with other specimens of the human species? Just stay behind the trusted screens, only having to deal with logic..?

[ecofeco]

That Twix ad about left and right Twix?

It's no joke.

[Gerhard Mack]

They didn't even try.

'A week later, I learned that they were still using Office - unregistered - because LibreOffice was "too complicated".'

I bet they didn't even try LibreOffice.

I have redirected more than a few people who come to me asking about either their trial office subscription expiring to Libre Office or where to find an affordable Office for their new PC. These people are not what I would refer to as "technical" and I have had no complaints.

[The Oncoming Scorn]

I have Office Pro Plus 2021 installed on my machines.

Grey Market Licences are nice. :)

[Sandtitz]

"Last time I looked Office 2019 was the last version you could install on your own computer."

Last time you looked was years ago? Office 2021 is the latest version you can buy without subscriptions.

Also, all but the cheapest 365 Business Basic edition come with locally installed full Office version (including version for tablets/phones).

[Pascal Monett]

I have the install files for Office 2013.

It's enough for me for my professional use.

On my home PC, it's LibreOffice all the way.

[katrinab]

Since you last looked. Office 2021 has been realeased and is available from all the usual retail channels.

[StrangerHereMyself]

So Redmond caught on that people aren't willing to rent software? Good for them.

[Doctor Syntax]

Have you looked at the price?

[HMcG]

You’re talking bollocks, I’m afraid. Office 365 lets let install locally perfectly well, The real difference is that Microsoft have moved Office to a yearly subscription model, it’s nothing to do with not allowing a local install.

[DoctorNine]

It's like real estate...

People developing internet destinations have an innate bias toward trying make that sure they have iron-clad control of those destinations. So they have designed systems that work like home-owners' associations, which require anyone who lives there to cede a substantial portion of their rights to that organization. In some destinations, you aren't even allowed to own the property. It is only leased to the occupants.

This works only if the destination is so compelling, that most people are willing to buy in. If either the destination is insufficiently unique, or the relationship requires cedeing too much control, then buyers will vote with their feet, and not participate.

In my estimation, we are nearing that last condition, but have not quite gotten there yet. Developers will always continue to try to get purchasers to cede more and more control. They will dance on the edge of that knife ad infinitum, because it is in their interest to do so.

It's a 'boiling frog' question. Will this strategy will lead to a rebellion, or total control of the end user? Understanding the Dunning-Kruger curve, I am not optimistic about the former outcome.

[LionelB]

Wunnerful was never the point

> That's not because suddenly, everyone will realize that the Linux desktop is wonderful. Sorry, folks, if it hasn't happened by now, it never will.

No indeed, and it's worth bearing in mind that that's certainly not how Windows gained hegemony in the desktop PC arena. They did that by making sharp deals with the PC hardware industry - you simply got MS Windows pre-installed as the OS that came with the PC (and later laptop) you bought from any major consumer outlet. Likewise in the workplace, it was simply on every machine that your company purchased. Whether you liked it or not -- let alone thought it was "wonderful" -- was a non-question. And the average consumer (or indeed business user) would most likely have no idea that alternatives were even available (not that they would be motivated to change for change's sake anyway).

The same will be true of Linux; it will never gain widespread traction in the consumer market until such time as it is routinely pre-installed on consumer PCs/laptops; and like MS Windows, it's wonderfulness or lack thereof will not be the issue. Whether this happens as suggested by the article -- through MS relinquishing the market (and failing to take their entire consumer base into cloud-cuckoo land with them) remains to be seen. I can, though, imagine a world where the (diminished) desktop-PC-as-we-know-it world becomes a Linux-dominated one, with major PC manufacturers/vendors bundling pre-installed, possibly Windows-like, bespoke Linux editions, with support. Perhaps even, with the overt co-operation of Microsoft, as thin-client gateway machines to the MS cloud...

_{I've left Apple -- and desktop gaming -- out of this discussion. The former will maintain a core/niche support of graphics/media bods plus people who genuinely do think it's wunnerful. As for the latter, I'm really not sure. I've never been a gamer so am not sure which way that market is moving. But if MS are really getting out of the traditional desktop market, another OS will need to take up that slack - and I don't see any alternatives to Linux there.}

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Wunnerful was never the point

"Perhaps even, with the overt co-operation of Microsoft, as thin-client gateway machines to the MS cloud."

It's not difficult to visualise the rise of the Windowsbook, the equivalent of the Chromebook. The security-conscious version, especially for those who regularly pass through border controls, would one completely agnostic about the service it connects to, including the company VPN and a completely bland alternative, and not preserving any trace of what it connected to last.

[Boothy]

Re: Wunnerful was never the point

Just on the gaming side, and granted this is a sample size of one, i.e. me.

But I recently decided to give Linux a go as a gaming system (around January), but wanted to be able to fall back to Windows if needed, so I went dual boot. So an existing Win 10 install (aka my main Gaming Rig OS), I then added Linux Mint, installed to a separate SSD (no real reason for Mint other than I was already familiar with it in various VMs).

The install went well, Mint recognised all hardware out of the box (Ryzen 5800X3D + AMD 6900XT). Including gaming specific keyboard and mouse. The only extra bit of software I needed to install was 'ckb-next', to get the back-light of my Corsair keyboard to come on (aka RGB).

Steam (which is where the majority of my games library is) has had a Linux native client for many years, and with the advent of the Steam Deck and Proton [1] (which is what prompted me to give this a go), this now makes installing Windows only titles a breeze on Linux.

A few games still work better under Windows, (MS Flight Sim for one, some of the Total war games), but most other games work just as well on Linux as they do under Windows, some actually performing better on Linux! For example some legacy games I've tried, that were written for Windows 7 or earlier, can be difficult to get running on Windows 10 (crashing etc), but work fine on Linux via Proton. Others that I had issues running under Windows 10, such as Knights of the Old Republic II (crashes regularly for me, tried all sorts), turned out to have a native Linux version, which works better (for me anyway) than the Windows version did!

Overall, I now spend probably 95%+ gaming on Linux, and if any new purchased don't work under Linux, they get refunded, or at least that's the plan, I haven't actually had one yet that failed to work! Can't see me ever going back to Windows now for gaming, at least not on any sort of regular basis.

If you want to see the state of Linux gaming, for Steam anyway, check out https://www.protondb.com/ as they list all the games in Steam and how well they work in both the Steam Deck, and in standard Linux.

Plus it's worth noting, often Steam Deck compatibility is rated poor for some games due to the controls, as the Steam Deck uses console like controls and a touch pad, rather than it being performance issues, this is a non issue for regular Linux, as you'll almost certainly have a keyboard and mouse, which is what most PC games expect to see of course.

1: For background, Gabe Newell (aka Mr Valve/Steam) is well known to really hate MS and Windows in general, and apparently really dislikes the direction MS is taking Windows in, and Steams currently reliance on that platform. As such Valve have been trying to move away from Windows for years. They released a Linux native Steam client many years ago now, and also worked on Steam OS based on Arch Linux (they were aiming at basically building a Steam based console, produced by other companies, but it didn't really pan out).

Work continued on Steam OS anyway, with Steam OS 3.0 being released last year to run on the then new Steam Deck, this is basically a portable PC running a tweaked Arch Linux, and includes Proton, a customised version of Wine, the Windows compatibility layer, but focusing on gaming. (There are also people working on a non Steam Deck version of Steam OS 3.0, for regular hardware).

The Steam Deck has been quite popular, and has pushed many developers and publishers in the last 18 months or so, to get their games Steam Deck compatible verified. This compatibility is shown on the games store page in Steam, so lots of effort gong on to get their games listed as Verified and with a big green tick. If the game works on the Steam Deck, then it's almost certainly going to run on a regular Linux install, as long as the hardware is up to the job of course.

[cjcox]

Volume, relationships, market, etc.

If Windows is "in the cloud", what did people buy to access it?

There's a lot more than just the "OS" to think about. There are all the partner relationships (the monopoly) you have consider as well.

I mean, does the future hold a whole lot of cheap Chromebooks?

What about enthusiasts, creators, gamers?

While Windows in the cloud is a good idea, it isn't going to displace Windows on end devices, probably not ever.

[breakfast]

Re: Volume, relationships, market, etc.

Counterpoint: Microsoft don't care about those of us who want to use Windows on end devices. We're a small part of the market and simply not interesting to them. If I was selling software that needed to run on a local machine - if I was an Adobe or a Cubase or whoever - I would be looking at how I could get my tools working on Linux because sooner or later Microsoft are going to kill my model of locally installed software running locally.

[Joe Gurman]

I find your lack of evidence…. disturbing

There is no quantitative evidence at all that Mac users feel any need to use cloud implementations of macOS for but a tiny percentage of niche cases — and those are mere substituting cloud versions for what had been, for decades, hosted services, e.g. running your own mailserver.

The vast majority of Mac users use the OS on laptops and, to a lesser extent these days, desktops. And though it should probably go without saying, the number of users of macOS continues to dwarf the number of people who like to fiddle with Linux on the desktop. To each their own.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: I find your lack of evidence…. disturbing

The number of people who just run stuff on Linux on the desktop also dwarfs the number of people who like to fiddle with it.

[georgezilla]

Re: I find your lack of evidence…. disturbing

" ... of people who like to fiddle with it. ... "

I've used Linux for 2+ decades. But my "fiddle" is a bit out of tune.

Not because I don't want to play it. But because I don't need to ( contrary to what many people think that you need to do, OFTEN ).

[breakfast]

Re: I find your lack of evidence…. disturbing

When I used Linux as my main desktop OS I found I couldn't avoid fiddling with it if I wanted to get anything working.

Eventually I realised Linux was free as in "free to spend all my free time trying to get basic things working on my Linux desktop" and switched back to Windows. I still complain about it a lot and I still run my machine in dual boot but on a day to day basis Windows just works with far more software than Linux does. Particularly with things like music software, simply being confident that VSTs will work consistently means I can confidently buy them, which opened a lot of doors for me.

I hope that we'll end up with a model that allows desktop software to work well under Linux, but I don't know that it will ever happen.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: I find your lack of evidence…. disturbing

"And though it should probably go without saying, the number of users of macOS continues to dwarf the number of people who like to fiddle with Linux on the desktop. To each their own."

And while it's not Linux, MacOS is basically a pretty GUI on top of a Unix-like OS.

Maybe we should stop talking about "Linux on the desktop" and talk about "*nix on the desktop" instead :-)

FreeBSD (and occasional Linux Mint on a Netbook) user here :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

The 'Everything is in the Cloud' mantra

Might work for some people but it won't work for me and many other laptop users.

We can work anywhere AND NOT BE RELIANT on WiFi or 4G/5G availability.

Besides, some of us value our privacy. The Cloud is just someone else's servers somewhere in the world. What is on my laptop stays on my laptop or my backups. Thanks to TimeMachine, my backups are right there and ready to move to another laptop should my main one die on me.

With the cloud, I am not in control whereas with my device sitting on my desk, I am.

[Cloudane]

Re: The 'Everything is in the Cloud' mantra

I think there will always be something for business users (and so something for privacy conscious home users to "acquire" if we're not given an option) for the simple reason there are some companies like ours who CANNOT work in the cloud. We're handling official sensitive information and at least at the moment, the entity we get most of our money from as very much NO BUENO when it comes to us letting any of that data anywhere near a cloud. And as a lot of professional software is Windows only, there's no getting around it.

[hoverboy]

So if Windows will run in effectively a web browser, the TPM requirement goes away and I can keep using my ten year old Ivy Bridge i7 box? (currently running W10 and Ubuntu 22.04)

[katrinab]

You can modify a couple of registry keys at install time, and Windows 11 will run great on your i7-3770.

[bonkers]

Aversion vs Preference

So far, Linux on a desktop has been adopted by those that have a strong preference for it, for all sorts of reasons.

Most people, currently, prefer windows or Mac, as the stats show.

That preference is being constantly diluted as excellent free programs (I'll not call them apps, that's for mobile devices imo) such as Libre Office, KiCad, LTSpice, just keep on getting better.

Now, with M$ being so expensive and shite, a new factor emerges, aversion.

I don't want an operating system that constantly trawls the internet for clickbait sites to present to you, that you can't switch off.

Nor do I want my every keystroke recorded, my every edit published, in a suite of Office programs that just get forever worse.

I've a strong aversion to any OS that locks me into cloud storage, sulks when offline, and regularly spends up to 30 seconds pleasuring itself - whilst ignoring any input.

I certainly don't want to have to pay for the misery, on top of everything, and at maybe twice the cost of the computer.

Now, it appears I don't have to - I can get all the things I like, from nice people, and for free.

[Mike007]

News headline from 2043

Revolutionary new operating system works without network connectivity.

[Zippy´s Sausage Factory]

The whole "Windows in the cloud" thing is going to be looked at askance by a lot of people. Not only will it cost more (of course), it will give the US government the power to order Microsoft to hand over your data (Cloud act) or worse.

That said, the NSA and GCHQ must be loving the idea.

[leppy232]

Pictured:

doesn't know about the Management Engine/PSP, and has a lot of trust in their ISP, and definitely doesn't see how the NSA could wiretap HDMI cables. I'm not saying any of these are necessarily happening, but they're definitely other vectors to have your life snooped on that doesn't require anything to change.

[SharpBritannia]

No way

Even the least tech savvy of users will almost certainly notice the 1000ms ping to their servers and wonder why their expensive Core 9 Ultra (whatever that means) is performing like an Athlon. Unlike Office, word processing and spreadsheet software, such hideous lags in a desktop OS experience would backlash harder than the Metro UI. The OEM hardware partners would also be very crossed if they had all these IBM PC-compatible paperweights without their IBM PC OS of choice. They've invested a lot into this ecosystem.

As for Linux desktop, I'd rather patch code manually to make sh1t work on FreeBSD. Gnuwu/Lunix is just too damn fragmented and incoherent for me or any of those OEMs to bother. With no RHEL-compatible desktops and the archaic packages of Debian; It'll never ever happen, ever.

[Pascal Monett]

Re: No way

Seems like you mention everything but Mint. I don't know anything about your specific gripes, but I've tried Mint. It installed flawlessly and it works fine.

The only reason I can't install and use it on everything for the moment is because I'm not yet retired.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: No way

Before retiring I had a laptop dual boot Windows and SCO.

[jake]

Re: No way

For my last 9-5, my laptop dual booted pre-Solaris SunOS and BSD ... but I digress.

_{My first new post-9-5 career laptop triple booted, adding Solaris ... anyone but me remember the early '90s SPARCbook from Tadpole?}

[FIA]

For years, I've been watching Microsoft working on moving you from PC Windows to a cloud-based Desktop-as-a-Service (DaaS) model. More proof has recently surfaced, further substantiating Microsoft's grand cloud desktop scheme.

For my entire IT career I've been hearing about how the thin client will change the way we work.

My scepticism remains strong.

Sure, there's use cases, but it's not 'replacing the desktop' any time soon.

[Anonymous Coward]

What is a Chromebook if it isn't a thin client?

Ok, the web browser is a larger size of "thin" than was anticipated (e.g. just an RDP client or an X terminal) but everything is bloated these days

(Remember, just because *your* way of working hasn't been changed doesn't mean that nobody's way of working hasn't changed)

[jake]

McNealy's Sun tried to sell us "Graphical Terminals", "Diskless Workstations", "X terminals", "Thin Clients" and "The network is the computer" ... I'm sure I missed a couple in there, but the idea is pretty much the same across the board. It didn't sell, at least not in any numbers in the real world ... The basic bottom line is that this kind of computing doesn't have legs now that CPU, RAM and disk are as inexpensive as they are.

Those of us who have been around for a while recognize it as it really is ... Basically, it's centralized computing, with modern bandwidth allowing a GUI instead of text terminals. Mainframe technology with a glittery interface ... but mainframe technology nonetheless. They are trying to sucker people back into the pay-it-monthly service bureau days It's an all-singing, all-dancing, brightly colo(u)red, dinosaur.

Barney, in other words. And targeting the same mental age group, computing-wise.

[ecofeco]

I've been saying this for some time.

The PC freed us from the mainframe, and here we are, not just begging to go back in chains, but effing paying for it!

[John Brown (no body)]

"For my entire IT career I've been hearing about how the thin client will change the way we work."

I remember being part of the instal team that set up Windows thin clients for multi-national. They weren't bad, as such, but the system was dog slow on a morning when everyone came in and switched on at the same time. Slow to the extent that from switch on to usable desktop was well over the time it took to go make a coffee (real, not instant!) for pretty m uch the entire org. And entire offices would be offline if there was a network issue, no local working at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't bet on the administration crackheads who set our institutional IT policies making a rational decision to move to Linux. They are too hooked on the 365 koolaid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft yes, Apple no

Apple is one of very few companies which will deliberately prioritise on-device processing and handling of data whenever it makes the most sense to, which is most of the time. It’s also one of the reasons why Apple doesn’t truly run their own public cloud, but instead resells Amazon/Google/Azure at a markup under the iCloud moniker - they’re not playing that game.

Microsoft on the other hand… well they’re eating themselves in the name of Azure/365 revenue. Linux distros might stand a chance of winning mass appeal if Microsoft fails to sell the public on subscription licences for everything. But what’s more likely is Microsoft providing “free” 3 year subscriptions with new prebuilt PCs to help OEMs sell more, and the public lapping it up.

[david 12]

Personal Computers were aways only a niche product

MS got their start in the small niche between Green Screen and Games. They've grown and expanded to the point where they are now major players where the money is, in Games and Green Screen (now "cloud" and in color). They are slowly abandoning the "Personal Computer" niche because they don't need it anymore, and it's only a distraction from the main game.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Personal Computers were aways only a niche product

That's a pretty big niche.

I seriously doubt Microsoft care whether they're in PCs, games or the cloud so long as it's where the money is. Long term they're utterly dependent on where the market goes and even they can't steer it as much as they'd like to.

The mainstream business market has swung about between centralised on-prem, centralised off-prem (or bureaux as they used to be) and, once the technology arrived, personal. It's worth looking at some of the more recent changes and try to work out what will happen next and how Microsoft will respond.

Early PCs - 8-bit Z80 & 6502. Microsoft were into OEM BASIC interpreters (they also did a nice FORTRAN compiler for CP/M, I know because I used it). The business inroads, however, were really made with the Apple II. Microsoft tried to get into that with a plug-in Z80 board to run CP/M. What drove this stage in business would have been small business individual managerial wants or maybe needs.

The IBM PC and its descendants. Due to a bizarre sequence of events Microsoft got their foot in the door with MS-DOS. They missed the main original 8-bit opportunity but finally got the message. What drove this initially was small business and departments. In the corporate world departments who were dissatisfied with their IT departments would be able to buy a few PCs to do what corporate wasn't supplying.

The GUI. Apple had the revelation ar Parc and came out with the Mac. Microsoft followed on with Windows.

The server. A lot of manufacturers got in the act with Unix - products such as the NCR tower. PC technology then allowed other products such as Netware to come along. Microsoft first did their own Unix port, again to PC architecture but then sold it to their distributor, SCO and switched to Windows for the server. Arguably at this time SCO had the best product in the PC architecture server until the management changed to one which thought it was in the litigation business, not the S/W business and fired the foot-gun. Linux mopped up that business; the large server business on proprietary architecture has thinned out as several players dropped out. Again Microsoft lagged in both the Unix and non-Unix servers. Initially this was driven by small to medium businesses and departments of big business but it eventually allowed IT to wrest control of the PCs.

The Internet. Very famously Microsoft ignored this one passing them by and had to do an about turn when it became too big to ignore.

The cloud. Initially this again seems to have been driven by user departments unhappy with corporate IT and able to buy some capacity from their own budget to do what they wanted. Yet again Microsoft was a follower and yet again corporate IT wrestled back control.

What happens next?

If history is any guide users will be unhappy with what IT is providing by the cloud and will likely look for something back on the desktop or possible a departmental server that they can buy out of their own budget. If Microsoft are still going full tilt on trying to drag everyone into the cloud and corporate IT are keeping firm hold of the existing desktop Windows and shoving into the cloud then it's not going to be Microsoft based, at least not until Microsoft do another about turn. It could, of course, be Macs but there could be a possibility of Linux moving in there.

[jake]

Re: Personal Computers were aways only a niche product

Microsoft can't even properly steer themselves, they are on a rail of their own making. Paraphrasing Gene Spafford's 1992 comment on Usenet, Microsoft is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea. Massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

[chololennon]

Working on Windows

Six weeks ago I landed a new job as a software developer... on Windows 11 (after more than 15 years of using Linux/KDE at home/work). OMG! the lack of configuration + PowerShell + Windows File Explorer + Start Menu + (add your is sh$%$ here) are killing my heart and soul. Every day I rely on hacks in order to tweak something. Even WSL + a buggy/limited version of Dolphin for Windows are not enough. At least I can use Vim/Kate/Okular/VSCode-VSCodium (instead of VS Studio), but my workflow is not the same, I feel miserable :-(

[HMcG]

Re: Working on Windows

So your lack of familiarity with the operating system is making you form a judgment that it’s a poor operating system? And you wonder why Linux has never caught on with the vast majority of users?

[chololennon]

Re: Working on Windows

> So your lack of familiarity with the operating system is making you form a judgment that it’s a poor operating system?

Wrong, I am not a newbie in the MS world. I was a hardcore Windows C++ developer for nearly 20 years, and I was using Windows since v1.0. Actually, I still fix Windows machines from friends and family, so, no, I don't have "a lack of familiarity with the OS" as you said.

[doublelayer]

Re: Working on Windows

However, a lot of your irritations are because all the things you've used for the past fifteen years are different. Many of them are possible, but you don't do them instinctively now. This is one of those things that people assume won't impact Linux, but actually does, because people become familiar with something and experience that momentary irritation when something they already know how to do doesn't work here. The new thing might be similarly difficult or it might even be superior, but while people regain their footing, it adds annoyance. Just because you don't have your routines set up doesn't mean that the system is at fault, as I've said to people who hate Linux because the desktop doesn't look the same, they could get used to that if they see it as the cosmetic rather than functional difference it is.

[chololennon]

Re: Working on Windows

> However, a lot of your irritations are because all the things you've used for the past fifteen years are different

Not different, worse. People have to rely on a lot of registry hacks or 3rd party app to configure the system or fix some deficiencies.

And I repeat it again, I am not a Windows or Microsoft newbie.

[doublelayer]

Re: Working on Windows

I got it, you know how Windows works. However, your idea of worse is kind of hard to separate from the main concept of "different", which you have also made very clear applies to your situation. For example, elsewhere in these comments, people have described reasons why they think Linux is worse. They sound a lot like your reasons: something they find easy on Windows is not easy on Linux because you need some other software for it, which you might have to configure in a text file somewhere, and that's before we pull in other possible sources of confusion. These things don't make Linux bad, which is why such posters get a lot of downvotes and disagreement in the replies. Neither does this always apply to Windows.

If you've been here for long, or really anywhere else where Linux has been debated, how often have you heard someone say something like this:

Linux is fine if you like the defaults, but as soon as something breaks, you'll have to go to the command line and edit configuration files based on flawed instructions from someone who posted them six years ago about an old version of the software.

Because I've heard that argument. It's very similar to the one you just made about the registry, in that both things do happen, both are annoying, and both are a bit easier if you're familiar with those OS structures and understand how they work (although that knowledge doesn't make either go away). The problem with the argument is that people who use it imply that some system is unique in requiring them. The one I quoted makes it sound like Linux needs a lot of CLI configuration and nothing else ever does, whereas the Windows-based argument suggests that users constantly need to go to the registry, but nothing like that is ever required on Linux. They've taken the starting point of truth and expanded it to the point of incorrectness.

[Tim99]

Re: Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop

"OPINION If you count Android and Chrome OS as Linux, which I do...": Err, I don't.

Perhaps if the first sentence of the article was something like: "If you count Google's de facto proprietary operating systems as having come from Linux..." followed by something like "which are now mostly connected to on-line systems that use Linux..." it might be a better approximation.

I go back to about 1971 with this stuff and am now in my dotage; but, I do wonder if we have replaced the mainframe/terminal model with something that is functionally similar - More useful, and prettier - With most of the data now stored somewhere where we have no direct ownership of it.

Background: My goto systems these days are an iPad Pro; followed by an iMac; followed by a couple of Raspberry Pis; followed, distantly, by Windows 10 in a VM on the iMac. The Windows VM will be retired when I update the iMac.

[Tim99]

Re: Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop

I should have mentioned that I now look after the "residents' computing" in my retirement village library. The last Windows computer (10 years old, running Widows 10) got upset after a recent Patch Tuesday. It was used mainly for Word, online Google, MS, etc., and printing. I replaced the tower with my spare 4GB Raspberry Pi 4. It now has a nice simple desktop showing the bowling green - I took most of the applications out except the Raspberry version of Chrome, the standard photo and PDF viewer/editor software and LibreOffice. The Pi is left on all of the time, compared with a few minutes startup of the old PC. The performance is entirely adequate, and like the previous Windows PC, everything a user did is reset when they log out.

It left a single A4 page of instructions, along with my name and phone number. Looking at the logs over the last few weeks, the usage has been about the same and nobody has contacted me to ask how to use it.

[jake]

Re: Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop

Funny story about my Great Aunt ... I brought her a Slackware box after spending four weekends in a row cleaning up malware on her XP system. She refused to use Slack, because it was "too hard to make a change at my age". Several weeks later, I realized that I hadn't had any support calls from her. I called to see what was up. It turned out that her sister in Finland had sent her some pictures right about the time that the XP box crapped out again. Out of desperation, she booted up the Slack box ... and hasn't looked back.

Several months later, she asked me to "get rid of that old thing", pointing at the now working again XP box. I couldn't convince her that I could install the same version of Slackware on it, with it's more modern CPU, more RAM, larger harddrive, etc. To her, the OS+hardware were a lemon that couldn't be fixed. She's a Linux advocate now, in her "over 90" club ... but unfortunately, she calls it "the version of windows that my nephew gave me".

The above events occurred over 15 years ago. Linux is a lot more mature and user friendly now.

[jojomj040]

Re: Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop

And still 15 years later the youth ain’t even talking about it, it still remains small and only used by small groups.

[Cloudane]

Why do people even WANT a laggy ass desktop (as anyone who's tried to do much over remote desktop can attest) that slows down further when someone else on the network is hogging the bandwidth and fails altogether whenever your internet goes down? It's bizarre.

I hope this doesn't price us out of ordinary desktops. Supply and demand etc.

[ecofeco]

Sadly, my main home and work PC requires programs that have not been ported to Linux nor work under Wine, or I would have ditched it years. My other "casual" machines are Minty.

[HMcG]

> Tell me, are you running Office 2019/2021 or Microsoft 365 (formerly Office 365) at a cost of at least $70 a year?

The writer seems to be suffering a fundamental misunderstanding about Microsoft 365 actually gives you, which is the ability to install the full Office suite, locally , on 5 computers , with no sign in restrictions other than a one time activation.

Now, I’m not a huge fan of Microsoft’s move to a yearly subscription rather than one time purchase, but the idea that Microsoft are forcing Office users to move to the cloud is just pure havering by the author.

And no, they don’t try to hide the local install option, it’s right there on the account page in huge font with a big ‘Install’ button.

Linux may catch on for the home desktop sometime, but it’s not going to happen by Linux fans spreading misinformation.

[Nathan 6]

3 Percent now and forever IMO.

I used Linux for years from the mid 90s all the way up to time of windows 7 when I transitioned to the MS OS. Never went back. The main issue with Linux I found was no consistent UI, way to install apps, and programming API. Those are things Android solved years ago, yet the main linux releases have no real interest in solving. Linux is and have always been about choice which is it strengths as well as it greatest weakness.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: 3 Percent now and forever IMO.

You haven't used Linux since the time of W7? But you still know all about it?

[doublelayer]

Re: 3 Percent now and forever IMO.

In their defense, I see posts by those who haven't used Windows in that time or longer (or claim not to) who are sure they're knowledgeable about modern Windows. Sometimes, they too have ancient ideas about how Windows works which are not true.

In my defense, I use Linux nowadays and don't agree with the rest of their complaints. There are differences, sure, but I find them on lots of systems and you basically have to put up with it on whatever systems you choose.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Consistency

@Nathan 6

"The main issue with Linux I found was no consistent UI!"

Whereas Windows PCs and Windiows apps and Windows APIs and Windows-centriic document fornats have remained consistent for decades haven't they?

.

No, afaict the main thing that's truly remained consistent in the Windows world is the ability for the MS-dependent players to abuse their significant market power, be it with system manufacturers, "the channel", high street retailers, etc.

[Slipoch]

Re: Consistency

Windows is the one desktop system at a time. They are usually good for legacy within reason too.

Linux has 3-4 all doing things completely differently at a time.

So if I want to develop a linux GUI app, I either have to limit my audience to using 1-2 of the desktops (KDE & Gnome would be my pick) or spend an awful lot of time adapting my GUI setup to work on other desktop systems.

Even if I make a windows 7 app today, it will work on windows 10 & 11 and everything in between. This is IMO the secret to MS's GUI App dominance, they make it easy to develop for. With Linux I either use something cross platform like Xamarin, or I don't bother. Developing for the linux desktops (at least about 5 years ago when I gave it a crack) was a pain, it was very fiddly and random crap would go wrong with no clear indication of why.

Now I could spend another few weeks determining why and getting it up and going on everything, but for a small market share it doesn't make financial sense.

If Linux could pull together and get a single dominant GUI that makes app development easy (or even incorporate a standardised webview system so we can use blazor for the interface) then you would get a lot more of the mainstream SME GUI applications being released.

[ecofeco]

Re: 3 Percent now and forever IMO.

We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Linux today is nowhere near what it used to be.

[leppy232]

Re: 3 Percent now and forever IMO.

"no consistent UI"

I dual boot with Windows 11 on my Surface Laptop 3 and in 15 minutes I can see the shiny new Windows 10/11 UWP stuff, some Windows Vista dialogs (like the long move dialog), some XP icons, and even a couple MFC windows still hanging around in the base OS.

"way to install apps"

You just tell the package manager to install something and it does it. I'm just a casual Linux user and even for me it's braindead easy, and I'd hope it would be for anyone who can read. But, there's also stuff like KDE Discover and GNOME Software and whatever the one Pantheon has is called, if you really insist on an app store interface.

"and programming API"

As I've said, I'm not a Linux power user by any means, I couldn't tell you how nice the Linux API is or isn't, but I couldn't tell you how nice the Windows one is either, and I doubt 90% of people could.

[thomasvenables]

What Microsoft is offering is basically what I want, nearly...

My ideal is to have a cloud based desktop that I can use as my daily Dev machine, with a different VM per contract customer to avoid any cross-pollination.

Most of my day to day tooling is either cloud or SAAS based. I don't compile code locally very often, I build CI/CD pipelines to do it.

For this same reason I'm Almost OS agnostic.

"Linux" seems to be falling behind (again) is building for this market. RH/Ubuntu/SuSE should all be offering this and optimising like crazy. Ideally undercutting Microsoft in cost.

If this comes to pass, then maybe my laptop doesn't need to cost thousands, but instead hundreds. With good monitor/keyboard instead of local CPU/GPU grunt.

[doublelayer]

So you would like some VMs? You can get those from nearly any cloud provider you like. I wonder what features you think the distro providers should be making, given that installing the distribution of your choice into a VM running on anyone's cloud takes about ten minutes. You can then connect to that machine from any system you choose using any communication system that's compatible.

I'm also not sure that you'll get the decrease in price you hope for by depowering the terminal. Sure, instead of a nice laptop processor, you could use a low-end, low-power CPU, which should save a bit off the total cost. The peripherals are still going to be the same, and you'll still need fast networking and sufficient graphics to be able to process the data coming out of your VM or your weak hardware will start to cause glitching. The main thing you can reduce is the disk, but unless you normally equip your laptop with a huge and fast storage array, the disk is likely one of the cheapest parts there already. A 256-512 GB SSD is not that expensive nowadays, so even if you decrease it to a 32 GB EMMC, there's a low cap on how much that can save you. You can see this by comparing Chromebook costs. Unlike what Google claimed when they started making those, there aren't a lot of cheap and good Chromebooks out there. You need to pay about the same as a Windows laptop with comparable performance, and your terminal will only be slightly less expensive than that, mostly from savings on the CPU.

[Kev99]

Great way to have your data stolen

Like anyone with an gram of grey matter would ever trust to put any of their private, proprietary, confidential, business critical, personal data in the bunch of holes held together with string or vapor. It's bad enough mictosoft's one drive insists on foisting its irritating icon overlays onto all my files even though I'm not now nor have I even been connected to one drive.There's no way on earth I'll let mictosoft have access to my data. If I absolutely need to access my data remotely, I'll either have it on a thumb drive or on my personal, encrypted NAS.

[TheMaskedMan]

If your desktop is in the cloud - presumably kept company by all the files you don't mind sharing with your cloud provider - what happens when your internet connection goes titsup?

Even if you can fall back to some kind of legacy local desktop/ applications, all your files are on the other side of a broken connection. Might be ok for organisations with redundant / backup connections, but small businesses, home-based workers, self employed etc are going to lose a lot of time.

[Slipoch]

video!? serious

"Over in Apple land, serious photography and video workers will still run high-powered and high-cost Macs."

- Nope and nope. When we were doing photographic prints for professional phtographers (on MF 5"x6" film for print sale, oils reproductions and gallery systems) we didn't touch a single Apple because they couldn't handle

1. the workload required

2. the profile setups where we had to be able to associate a printer and monitor with a single profile.

3. The colour accuracy.

For serious film very few use Apple, why? well if something goes down you need to get it back up ASAP and when a movie is costing ~$1m an hour for downtime (this is mid-budget film) and you cannot get support or a reliable system (FCP is not reliable) then you don't use that product. Most serious film production uses Avid for editing, Resolve for Colour, Nuke for compositing, and Houdini for VFX. Admittedly the music may use an Apple, but that is often outsourced to other houses. And the M1/M2 do NOT support the transfer formats used by these programs and M1/M2 systems are all slower for rendering than even the low-range video prod suites, let alone for hardcore VFX. Even in the magazine industry when I was using systems for magazine layout, none of them were Apple.

consumers and prosumers use Apple for video/photography, not the high end.

[Tron]

From empowering PC to Orwell's Telescreen.

It's a control freak power grab. All your data and all your software will be controlled and monitored by GAFA. You will have nothing but a dumb terminal - Orwell's telescreen. It's not just the internet but most of our computing infrastructure that will be re-engineered as part of the surveillance state. Allowing ordinary people to be able to write or run software as they wish in their own homes on their own kit is perceived as a threat to national security. Only when Big Brother can see everything you do, monitor everything you do, and control everything you do, can Big Brother protect you from yourself. A small bonus there for older readers, as you have enjoyed the last few decades. The future will be an utterly crappy Chinese-style dictatorship, online and offline.

[leppy232]

Re: From empowering PC to Orwell's Telescreen.

The time to be worried about PC invasion of privacy was in 1980 with the first ISPs that necessarily need to have access to whatever you do online, or in 1999 when the Pentium III came with serials, or 2006 when the Core 2 Duo came with a black box for monitoring your hardware that Intel claims is just for system administrators to monitor their servers even though it's still on chipsets that have never gone near a server room, or in 2009 when it was found that the NSA was wiretapping HDMI cables and Cisco routers, or in 2012 when AMD followed Intel's suit, or in 2015 with Alexa and its clones. This is really nothing, and honestly the least effective possible move they could do if they wanted that data, the IME/PSP thing is way more invasive because it's OS agnostic, you can't just neutralize it by installing Linux... or Windows 11.

[jake]

Re: From empowering PC to Orwell's Telescreen.

The real privacy speed bump occurred in the late '70s when Vint Cerf put a stop to us attempting to build privacy and security into TCP/IP. Seems that the .mil of the day told him that was a no-no for civilians.

_{PEE CEEs are not today, and never have been, what I consider "secure".}

[leppy232]

Re: From empowering PC to Orwell's Telescreen.

Certainly, anything connected to the internet is already compromised if you're going to go that route. For offline use, you can at least claw back a little more breathing room if you use hardware with fully open firmware stacks... good luck with that beyond Raptor and maybe 12 year old ASUS boards.

[bazza]

Exceedingly Unlikely

From the article:

Mind you, it's going to be a much smaller PC market than the one we have today. Those are the breaks. But for people who want a real desktop operating system, Linux will be their first and, indeed, almost their only choice.

Er, no.

If the PC market shrunk 97% down to those few hard core Linux users, it won't be worth anyone's while making PC hardware at all. So, you won't have a PC running Linux... You might have an RPI or similar; but in terms of a proper, grunty, lots of compute power computer one your desktop, no one is going to make one of those for just 3% of today's market, for today's prices.

And besides that, the price will have to drop. $30 per month for a mediocre desktop is quite a lot of money, more than the cost of buying a resonable desktop (which, these days, can readily be eeked out to 5, 10 years life).

[ecofeco]

Re: Exceedingly Unlikely

Redhat and SUSE would like a word with you about "a few harcore Linux users".

[Ilgaz]

I looked around, serious cloud "PCs" are extremely expensive

I have a i5 CPU with Intel HD5500 GPU which really can't work well with Photoshop. It even overheats and shuts down and I _hate_ Windows. So I thought "let's rent some good PC which does have a good (non pro) GPU, 16GB of RAM and Windows whatever just to run Photoshop with Neural Filters.

When I finally gave up, I was looking to an offer from Amazon which was worth $650/month. Adding Windows license and GPU makes the prices crazy. I am not even talking about the stuff you would want to rent while having a good GPU.

The real amazing thing is, Adobe doesn't offer any solution to advanced users/small companies who doesn't really want to keep up with new GPU every 6 months. They are already subscribed. Just add extra "cloud processing" thing.

[AndrueC]

So what you're saying is that Linux is going to be left behind again. "Billy no mates" in the cloudy digital age.

At least it's doing well in the server market.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

OS versus hardware death match

It will end up like cellphones where Google and Apple are strangling APIs needed local computing while manufactures are trying to sell phones at $1500 so you can have the fastest CPU and most RAM on an incredibly boring phone.

Nobody wins.

[bazza]

Re: OS versus hardware death match

I'm pretty sure that they're using RAM and CPU ramps as sales drivers, only because mobiles are not guaranteed to have connectivity. If they could rely on a subscription streaming model - MaaS - they would.

Which makes things pretty ironic in the "let's stream everything" world.

In that world, the one device that doesn't need RAM and a large CPU because it has constant network connectivity could run off batteries but has mains electricity available.

The device that has to run off batteries and doesn't have constant network connectivity ends up needing a decent CPU and a heap of RAM and storage, and costs a lot of money to make the design viable (tiny electronics, expensive batteries, support for up to 15 separate radio standards to get network and peripheral connections (the different flavours of cellular, wifi, Bluetooth and NFC), small yet clear displays, myriad sensors).

Mobiles are an engineering miracle, but they're not a desktop replacement. They're overkill, even if they were an open run what you want platform

[doublelayer]

Re: OS versus hardware death match

Most of the time, the incredibly powerful mobile CPU is completely unused. Same with the RAM; since the phone is generally tuned to evict anything except the app on your screen and the background daemons, it doesn't need very much. This is also true because no matter how much memory some manufacturer shoves into the high end model, there will still be people with 4 GB or less so, unless the app is a high-end game, it's probably designed to run on that kind of device. Of course, Android helps make the case for the CPU by having inefficient software so the lowest-end CPUs feel sluggish, but once you get into mid-range performance, telling that apart from the maximum becomes harder. I think it's a lot like the five high-resolution cameras they put onto them. Some people actually have a use case where those cameras or that CPU is useful, but often people just buy the expensive thing without knowing that they won't benefit from it.

[EricB123]

DAW Not!

I have thousands of dollars of Digital Audio Workstation software that runs under Widows. It can, like games, strain the fastest PC. It doesn't run on Linux. Now what?

I also refuse to pay for subscription software.

[bazza]

Re: DAW Not!

Relax. Desktops aren't going away...

The streaming game market isn't massively successful so desktops are going to persist.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

Re: DAW Not!

Linux isn't a huge problem for gaming as long as you're x86-64. Steam automatically wraps games in a Windows simulation and they run fine. If it's not on Steam, you can do the same manually with WINE. I've only seen DRM encumbered games fail.

[jake]

Re: DAW Not!

"Now what?"

Have fun with your toy? I hope it brings you thousands of dollars worth of entertainment.

[ecofeco]

Re: DAW Not!

Get teh Monster Cables! Don't worry about the cost, they'll see you coming!

[Tubz]

Gamers, for Microsoft they are a nice to have bunch at the moment bring in the coin, but do you think they won't be seriously looking at cloud only gaming subscriptions. Imagine if they do get Activision Blizzard and any other studios offering themselves up for purchasing, Microsoft graciously offer 10 year support for other consoles to appease everybody and then bang, cloud only Windows support and XBox becomes a thin client. Linux and game studios really need to start talking and supporting each other, problem is too too many splintered versions !

[Stuart Castle]

Hmm, reading through this, not sure I agree. Yes, Microsoft *are* actively pushing people to the cloud, but Apple don't seem to be going that way. Yes, they want you to use iCloud for your storage, and have web based versions of the main iCloud apps, but they don't seem to have actively gone beyond that. Microsoft appear to be pushing all Windows users down the VM route, with Onedrive storage being part of the journey.

I think ultimately, Microsoft would like all of us to access Windows via a (probably Microsoft branded) thin client or even a browser, with the xbox being an option for those who require a little more grunt for their gaming.

Apple don't seem to be going that way. They seem to be pushing to sideline macOS and replacing it with iOS.

Don't get me wrong: I don't like what Apple are doing, as I like knowing I can install software from wherever I choose (even some virus infested hell site).

[Tilda Rice]

Article by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols

Boring off anyone and everyone with anti MS bilge since the dawn of time.

Move along, nowt worth reading here.

[ecofeco]

I've spent 20 years working, professionally, supporting Microsoft.

It is indeed, bilge. And that's being nice.

[FirstTangoInParis]

AI-powered? Go away ….

If you use the web version of Word 365, you get all kinds of pop ups and suggestions that your grammar is rubbish. It’s like Clippy on speed. F the F off, and don’t come back. But then there’s a load of ‘features’ different to the desktop app; you can screw up a heading in one click, but you can’t unscrew it. In any case the undo buffer is only one deep, you can’t undo to the last time you asked for a save, not that you can anyway. If this is the future, I’m going to lose my mind.

[ecofeco]

Re: AI-powered? Go away ….

It's like Clippy on bath salts.

[xyz123]

Yes this is the year of the linux desktop..said every single damn year since 2000

[leppy232]

That year was 1998. KDE and Mandrake were released in '98, Windows 98 sucked horribly (and its 1999 expansion pack didn't really help), and Linux really started replacing Unix wherever it was used.

[Binraider]

Well, if Windows becomes a dumb(er) terminal than it already is.... The industry moved away from mainframe-and-terminal for a reason.

Major applications landing in browsers is one step along this road already.

And major applications working in browser is also one very much easier to migrate away from Windows desktop.

[43300]

"And major applications working in browser is also one very much easier to migrate away from Windows desktop."

Have you tried using the cloudy versions of Office? They are tolerable for basic stuff, but not for more complex work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux fanboys it ain’t happening

First up, Linux cannot always simply install there’s enough issues with that. But most importantly Linux will never, at least the foreseeable future, become dominant. Ofcourse there’s different type of end users but one group is the largest by far. And those prefer windows, whether it functions like your other electronics like a PlayStation or a phone the usage language is way more comparable to windows than Linux. The support of applications. Integration with other devices. Yes in the end you can do almost anything on Linux but you have to invest more to understand it than windows. And I do like Linux just realistically unless it dramatically changes which probably would agonize the current users it isn’t gonna be a hit for the masses.

[sfjuocekr]

I honestly fail to grasp why people stick up with Apple and Microsoft.

Sure, you don't know any better and you want to stay oblivious while being handheld. But the desktops delivered by both companies has increasingly been dumbed down to the point where customization is completely abolished as well.

[ecofeco]

Thanks to a couple of programs that aren't ported and will not run under Wine, I'm stuck with it as my production system.

But that's just my production machine. My others are Linux.

[Haeretic]

Has the borg taken over The Register?

Why does the article exclude the Linux desktops of choice, such as Mate and XFCE?

"But if your idea of the "Linux desktop" has a front end of Cinnamon, GNOME or KDE," no - a real desktop is not a default, imposed, one - a real desktop, is one chosen by the user, which is why Linux is a haeresy - a choice made by the person, not imposed upon the person.

Has the borg taken over The Register, also, in excluding Linux desktops of choice?

Does this mean that The Register will no longer recognise Linux Mint as a Linux distribution, and BSD as an operating system?

[ecofeco]

Re: Has the borg taken over The Register?

Perhaps read this site more often?

[RegularBloke]

Does it run Photos*** though ?

Yes, I wait for the day Linux desktops become so mainstream that popular apps (like a certain PhotoshXXX or LightrXXX) are able to run native on them. Been a linux 'user' on and off since the days of the RHEL cd-roms, and I'm still typing this comment from Windows 11. Like other's have said, it's all about functionality and having the right tools to run on Linux. The stigma that is one mush have Windows and Office installed to complete a PC/Laptop has been deeply embedded in all (most) of us regular users. My dad who's turning 85 soon, insists that he pays $70 a year for an Office subscription which he hardly uses. I tried linux (Mint, Pop, Manjaro) on him, all the time he just goes back to Windows...and all he does is read the news and track his retirement funds on a website. So yes, Windows on the cloud , like it or not, will still be appealing to the masses.

[leppy232]

Re: Does it run Photos*** though ?

The Affinity suite is compatible with Adobo formats and, while unofficial, I've seen Affinity employees in the forums helping people get it running in WINE. It's also a one time purchase, not a subscription model. In fact, I think that one time purchase costs less than a month of Adobo DD, but I might be wrong as I don't use it.

[jake]

Re: Does it run Photos*** though ?

Contrary to popular belief, Adobe products are not necessary to run any business.

The kiddies sure love using 'em to put captions on cute cat pics, though.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple?

Apple sells devices, providing macOS free of charge. Why would they be "happy" to provide it in the cloud. This goes completely against everything in their current business model and strategy.

[43300]

Re: Apple?

Apple doesn't provide macOS "free of charge" - it's simply included in the price of the device, no doubt factoring in how many updated versions they expect to provide before abandoning the device.

They won't sell / license it as a standalone product for use on any other device, bust that is less relevant these days as their hardware is effectively its own platform, as opposed to basically being slight variation on the standard PC from when they moved to Intel CPUs until a few years ago.

[lockt-in]

According to Wikipedia which uses statcounter.com:

"As of April 2023, Android, an operating system using the Linux kernel, is the world's most-used operating system when judged by web use. It has 42% of the global market, followed by Windows with 28%, iOS with 17%, macOS with 7%, ChromeOS 1.3%, then (desktop) Linux at 1.2% also using the Linux kernel. These numbers do not include embedded devices or game consoles."

That's from April 2023, Aug 2023: Android's marketshare is 43%, and Windows is 27%. Linux-wise, Linux's marketshare is 45%+, and Windows is 27%, so the Linux marketshare is approaching double that of Windows.

[Skiver]

This thread is the typical dumpster fire that this topic becomes every time it comes up.

[IceC0ld]

Windows v Linux

been in IT over 20 years now, Windows all the way

BUT I decided to have a go at Linux around 15 years back, IIRC, there was a big hoo hah over UBUNTU giving away 'FREE' CD's :o)

so, one old PC, with a new, clean HDD, and away I went, and yes, it ISN'T WINDOWS, so the first thing to do is admit that, and get stuck in, took a while, but got it up and running, and got online and posted to my forum of choice back then - ANTIONLINE - but never got comfortable with it, read about MINT, and its ease of use, to install AND run, so grabbed the ISO, got my set up routine ready, and quickly had a MINT machine ready to run, around this time - 2008 ish - got into the KALI side of things, and as I already had a Linux box, I dual booted it for MINT / KALI :o)

on the Kali, to save time, I had read of, and installed a quick updater ......

so now it was just a case of once in a blue, run that, get all the new stuff added, then go to Mint, and update that

in my defence, I am STILL a Windows kid, but am also happy running Linux, but you DO need to accept the Linux has a learning curve that is different to Windows, majority of us were initiated into IT on Windows, be it W2K / XP etc, and as such, we are happy to do the things that way, just accept you are NOT the same in Linux, and LEARN it, and boom, suddenly, you can run with both :o)

all this to say, the Windows has the edge over anything else out there, because it was in ALL offices / schools / HOMES ffs, IMHO XP was the system that turned the world onto the web, and let's be fair, it was ubiquitous, and having the same OS both at home AND work had to help it spread around

but I will always be glad I took the time to feel comfortable with Linux too, even if I am NO CLI guru

anyway, what was the thread about again :o)

[ecofeco]

Re: Windows v Linux

Modern Linux is light-years beyond where it was 15 years ago.

A modern Linux system will install, with all drivers, in far less time than modern Windows. And I have not had to faff about with a command line in years just to get one working.

[deaglecat]

Trades...

I (personally) will trade a little bit of work to get a popular Linux distro (Ubuntu, PoP, Fedora) working nicely, in preference to the constant battle to keep Microsoft from installing stuff I don't want.

That is all for me. Just less hassle now, on balance. Others may prefer to accept Windows "ease and familiarity" ... but on the back of that there is a lot of telemetry, clutter (O265, one drive, cortana, skype and (soon) copilot - none of which I intend to use).

[John Savard]

Possible

Since the MacOS is (legally) available only with Macintosh hardware - and now that it's moving to Apple Silicon from Intel, the qualifier will soon be droppable - even if only Microsoft went to the cloud, a lot of people would indeed have Linux as their only choice.

In packages of DOS, though, Microsoft used to include a registration card that bore the text "Do you want the phone number of the most important person at Microsoft?", the joke being "So do we" - you can't have a company without paying customers. Sure, Microsoft may get greedy, but they won't be stupid enough to go where customers will refuse to follow. So this kind of development is not certain - and, if it does happen, it may take quite a while before it does.

[MonsieurAardvark]

Can someone please enlighten me on how the linux desktop can:

Be managed in an enterprise situation:

* Group policy for the OS and Security

* Group Policy for the apps/software

* Updates including security

I'm asking, not denying it can be done

[ecofeco]

There are just as many ways as Microsoft.

You will have to google it. Too many ways to list here.

"linux desktop enterprise management"

[alisonken1]

You can ask the US DoD about that.

The Army is one of the largest subscriptions that RedHAT counts as a customer.

[DJ]

Making a list...

of apps that I truly need. Once I find a Linux version/flavour/distro that accommodates that list, I will be joyfully casting off the Microsoft shackle.

Until then, I'm stuck.

PS: @katrinab - what on earth are 'spillable' functions in Excel?

[jake]

Re: Making a list...

"what on earth are 'spillable' functions in Excel?"

It's this year's pivot tables. One of the things that was never necessary until Microsoft decided to put it into Excel to make it incompatible with LibreOffice.

"Office ain't done until LibraOffice won't open Excel files." ... doesn't quite have the same ring to it as "DOS isn't done until Lotus won't run", but it's the same old Microsoft. Refuses to play well with others, and resorts to dirty tricks because they are running scared.

[xyz]

I still think...

That in a few years if you're not "in the cloud" you'll be a terrorist or paedo or whatever. If you've nothing to hide etc.

Anyhoo, I'm off to Linux land. Got my VS code, SQL server, LibreOffice, something for graphics (not GIMP) and that's about that. I'm fed up wasting hours whilst my laptop farts around with constant updates and MS slurps whatever. That MS forced Edge install (read rape) really pissed me off given I'd managed to defend against any uodates for ages.

I now fucking hate MS.

[jake]

Re: I still think...

"If you've nothing to hide etc."

Here's a handy conversation starter for your government officials:

"Why do you have a door between your toilet and the rest of the house? Why don't you have a plate-glass window to the street in your shower? Why do you have curtains on your bedroom windows? What are you hiding? Are you a paedophile?"

[BPontius]

Old news

Where I work we do our work in the company cloud, yet we are still on PCs and laptops. If the network goes down or has problems you can't work, servers crashing, multiple incompatible platforms, networks, databases and programs. More problems and pain than benefit, no way I'm moving Windows, programs and data into the cloud. Especially since Microsoft and most cloud providers declare data stored in their cloud as fair game for mining. Microsoft is able to read zipped and password protected files stored on OneDrive, encrypted files can be read by Government (NSA). Since 9/11 they have cracked or backdoored most of the commonly used ciphers on the Internet. Since they share intel and data with other countries it is wide spread.

[indyH]

From Earl Grey to Soggy Sponges!

Ahoy there, fellow tech enthusiasts! Let me share a chinwag about the ever-evolving world of operating systems, and by Jove, it's a rollercoaster!

Imagine, if you will, the world of operating systems as a grand British tea party. Linux is like your ever-dependable Earl Grey – classic, no-nonsense, and always up for the task, even if the kettle's gone a bit old and rusty. With every brew (or update, if you will), it seems to get more refined, like a vintage wine locked away in the cellars of a stately manor, only to be unearthed during a surprise visit from the Queen.

Now, let's chinwag about Windows and MacOS. Initially, they're like a delightful Victoria sponge – fluffy, delightful, and a bit posh. But as time trundles on and more layers (updates) are added, the sponge starts to feel a tad... soggy. Before you know it, you're wrestling with a cake that's more like a trifle gone wrong, all because Aunt Mildred (or Microsoft and Apple) kept adding a bit too much custard!

Now, don't get your knickers in a twist! I'm not saying Windows and MacOS are all hat and no cattle. After all, both have had their moments in the sun, making old gadgets dance like they've had one Pimm's too many at a summer fête. But sometimes, their jigs feel more like a dad dance at a wedding – amusing, but not the sprightliest.

On the hardware front, it's a bit like having a classic Mini Cooper. With Linux, it feels like you've given the old girl a fresh lick of paint and a new engine, ready to zip around the winding roads of the Cotswolds. But with some of those 'fancy' OS updates, it's like trying to fit a lorry's engine into that Mini – a right dog's dinner!

In the grand tapestry of tech, there's room for every OS to have its day in the sun, even if some might need a bit of a nudge (or a swift boot) now and then. So, whether you're a Linux lover, a Windows whiz, or mad about MacOS, remember: it's all a bit of banter in the end. Just don't spill your tea on the keyboard!

[jake]

Re: From Earl Grey to Soggy Sponges!

Proof that ChatGPT isn't really all that the marketards claim it is.

_{No, it wasn't me. I don't use sockpuppets.}

[f4ff5e1881]

Re: From Earl Grey to Soggy Sponges!

Well, tally-ho with a bing and a bong and a zing zang spillip! Absolutely spiffing prose!

Marvellous to cross paths with a fellow Englishman who has, like me, been out in the mid-day sun, but whose dogs are certifiably not mad.

Alas, I have never been to a British tea party, grand or otherwise. But I have been to a street party – the King’s funny Coronation (Zadok the Priest is still rattling around my head). My giddy aunt, what a splendid day that was.

Let me set the scene. The sun was shining. The street was closed at both ends, and people had brought out tables and chairs. On the tables were sandwiches (of all sorts), crisps, little pies, pizza, sausage rolls, chicken wings – wonderful fare. Lots to drink as well with a choice a wines, beer, fizzy drinks, or just sparkling water. For dessert, on our table, we had an enticingly placed Victoria. Sponge.

The street was full of people chatting away, reminiscing about the BBC Micro, and having a jolly nice time. What bliss.

Sat opposite me was this one gent. Mr Windows. Everyone knows him. He’s a bit middle-aged now – not quite as sprightly as he used to be, and somewhat podgy around the middle. One of those chaps who lets out a little fart when he stands up, poor sod. He’s evidently a fairly dependable sort of cove, but for some time now I’ve felt there’s something a bit off with him. Not quite on the level, if you know what I mean. I’m not saying he’s a ne'er-do-well or anything like that, but let’s just say it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s living a double life involving a certain degree of espionage. I try to keep my distance from him these days.

At the next table was this chap who’s a right hoot! Young Mr Linux. Bags of energy. Can’t sit still for one minute! And so much personality – it’s like there’s ten people in there vying for attention! And there’s often a cadre of people around him who think the sun shines out of his…. well, you know what I mean. Apparently his old Uncle Unix (no longer with us) was a bit fruity too – I’m told he caused quite the sensation in the 70s. I gather young Linux is self-employed – something to do with computers – he’s apparently very capable, but desperately needs help with the marketing.

And then there’s old Mac. Kind of a strange old wizard. I’ve certainly heard of him. I’ve seen pictures of him in the local Gazette (it’s a local paper, for local people). But he wasn’t at the street party. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen him in the flesh. Neither has anyone I know. Apparently he just keeps himself to himself, and does his own thing. Which is fine. A bit like Dumbledore with agoraphobia.

And so here ends my little reverie. Toodle pip, stout yeoman!

[indyH]

Re: From Earl Grey to Soggy Sponges!

Well butter my crumpet and call me Beryl! I was absolutely tickled pink by your delightful meandering down memory lane! Truly, you have the gift of the gab!

I must say, your portrayal of Mr Windows made me snigger into my Earl Grey. I’ve always imagined him to be the sort who, if he were a beverage, would be a lukewarm cup of instant coffee – a bit bland but dependable enough when there’s naff all else. Your version of him letting off a cheeky parp is so on the nose, it's positively nostril-tickling!

Young Mr Linux sounds like the sort who'd be absolutely bonkers at a pub quiz – constantly whispering the right answers, but a tad too shy to belt out the tunes at karaoke. As for his Uncle Unix, I've heard he was the life and soul at discotheques, boogying down with wild abandon, afro and all!

Ah, old Mac... the tech-world's equivalent of the Loch Ness Monster. Frequently discussed, often admired from afar, but rarely spotted in the wild. Is he a myth? A legend? Or perhaps he’s just nipped off to the chippy and got lost on the way back. The man’s more elusive than a hedgehog at a balloon convention.

But let’s not forget Aunt Android, the groovy gal who keeps popping up everywhere, wearing a different hat each time. Just when you think you've figured out her style, she surprises you with another jig. I'd wager she's the one always pinching the last biscuit from the tin!

Your little soiree sounds utterly smashing, old bean. Makes one hanker for the simpler times, doesn't it? A street full of familiar faces, bantering away, with only the occasional car alarm to remind us of modernity.

Now then, tell me straight, old sport – are we just having a giraffe here in the comments? Is this all just a spot of trolling, British style?

Cheerio and keep your whiskers up!

[f4ff5e1881]

Re: From Earl Grey to Soggy Sponges!

No trolling, I assure you, governor! In fact, the only troll of note as far as I’m concerned is the one who keeps blocking my path to the bridge in ‘Sphinx Adventure’. But I will find the way past. Oh yes. It’s only been 37 years. Plenty of time yet. TTFN!

[rmstock]

Bill Gates Summer Book Reading List

The Book which has been on top on Bill Gates' summer book reading list [1], for many years now : "How to lie with statistics"

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtXuNUEM3vg

[itzumee]

I downloaded the MX 23 ISO file and tried installed it into a VMWare Workstation Pro VM, never got past the splash screen after the initial setup, the VM itself was nothing fancy, just a single processor, 8GB RAM a 40GB disk and I selected the correct option for the guest.

[CatWithChainsaw]

This world can't burn fast enough if this is the hell we're hurtling towards.

[MSArm]

"But for people who want a real desktop operating system, Linux will be their first and, indeed, almost their only choice"

Oh yawn... Been reading the same claptrap for almost 30 years now.