Framework starts taking orders for 16-inch repairable, upgradeable laptop You can now order the new 16-inch model of the Framework user-repairable – and user-upgradeable – laptop. Framework Computer continues to confound expectations by the tactic – quite unusual in this industry – of actually delivering on its promises. The company was founded as recently as the start of 2020 by Niruv Patel, the …
Indeed. Ever since Linus Sebastian got in as a share holder, their profile has been on the radar and promoted conveniently (sure with disclaimer, but still it is self-serving advertisement). As for the Framework ProdDev, I might even dare to say that it were the Linux users who got them to offer also AMD instead of just Intel. The next hurdle to take, looking at the forum messages, is the Windows key. That discussion has been dragging on for some considerable time now, but doesn't seem to move. Curious when true colours will be shown. Meanwhile here in Europe, some cloggers got in on the same game like Framework, albeit not with the innovative extension units or design specialties like Framework (and continuous promo push from LTT), but similar max repair and upgrade, contrary to Framework with open coreboot and *nix front and centre (NovaCustom - https://configurelaptop.eu/). Of course there has also been Tuxedo in Germany for quite some time now with *nix specific laptops, but they don't do the DYI/ max repair thing... No Windows key though (https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en)
Isn't that the shouty version?
* 'Was kann ich für Sie tun?'
* 'I need some assistance here.'
* 'Wie kann ich Ihnen helfen?'
* ' I. Need. Some. Help. Here.'
* 'Ja, ich verstehe. Wie kann ich Ihnen helfen?'
* 'I. NEED. SOME. HELP. HERE.'
That sort of Englsh. (Or is that just British English?)
Usually, it's an existing English layout modified with one or more keys used as modifiers to add diacritics. I've seen them made from both the UK and US layouts, usually with one or two of the less used punctuation keys set to diacritic mode. For people who primarily type in English but who speak a language that uses Latin letters, but not the subset used in English, this layout can allow them to use one layout for both languages and to have labels on the keys telling them what they do.
As a touch typist, I don't find this necessary; when I use a different language, I switch my layout to that one and it doesn't matter that the symbols on the keys don't show up when I'm typing in that language. This is not true of every user, which is why the international variants have been created. You can always get an international English variant and set the OS keyboard layout to something familiar. The only downside is that a few keys will have symbols that don't represent what they do under your new choice of layout. The only thing you have to be careful about is that the keyboard has the keys in the shapes you prefer, so if you're used to an extra key near your Z key, getting a keyboard that doesn't have one could be more annoying and vice versa.
So the thing that gets me here is that for the British English language pack on Windows one has to download the International English edition. Just getting the English edition gets you the Left Pondian version. Who had English first? Discuss, yes it's probably the Saxons, Angles etc but definitely not the First Nations in North America.
Did someone already produce a motherboard upgrade for one of the old Thinkpads?
There are a lot of decent Thinkpad models to choose from. Just need an enterprising company to produce some compatible motherboards with recent silicon to allow users to upgrade.
In the days of the PS/2 Model 70 and 55sx, there was a 3rd party producing motherboard upgrades.
I always use a portable mouse with a laptop and disable the touchpad, because having it where my palms rest is guaranteed to create unintended mouse moves and clicks while typing. But when I went to the site to customize one to see how it worked I didn't see such an option. Just a keypad.
Other than that while it is a marvel of engineering that they got this level of DIY/repairability in a not terrible form factor like previous efforts, that price point is too much to pay. You can get something of equal capability for a lot less money, and use your savings to buy an extended warranty or self insure and buy another (more capable since technology improves) one in the unlikely event something breaks.
I know some people dearly want a repairable laptop. Personally I just don't see the point unless the price difference is so low it is a no brainer.
The upgradeability is only useful over a relatively short time period. When AMD comes out with the next generation CPU it will have a different socket. The motherboard is unlikely to support denser memory than what it can support now, so even if bigger DDR5 DIMMs become available you probably can't use them (something that many of us face with current laptops even if they do have user replaceable DRAM) They can't do anything about stuff like that, that's just how the OEMs roll.
1. The entire mainboard is replaceable as they did with the 13" to support new socket configs. This way you only pay fro a CPU + mainboard instead of a whole new lappy.
2. I agree the price is a bit high particulalrly for that monitor.
3. The mainboard should support the ddr 5 specs the chipset supports, so you may be stuck with 5600 on intel till a new chipset comes out, but on the new AMD platform you should be right.
4. You can get a NAS/Media center case for the older 13" mainboards to turn them into entertainment units for the living room, don't see why this wouldn't happen for the 16" models too.
I suppose that depends when you replace your laptops normally and why. If you need the latest processors at all times, the new mainboards are a somewhat expensive way of doing it, but if the old ones are still used, then it might work out for you. I don't think it would prove that much differently than buying new laptops as frequently, although the old ones could be more useful than the old mainboards. If instead you are like me and replace computers because hardware has failed, then the Framework's model makes more sense. The last computer I replaced was replaced because the following had happened to it:
1. The battery was weak (relatively cheap and easy to fix on a Framework machine)
2. The disk had failed once and I didn't like that it was in an unusual form factor (Framework, along with many other computers, uses a standard M.2)
3. I had worn out the included keyboard, which wasn't too bad a problem but a bit annoying sometimes (also replaceable)
4. Apple had blocked me from installing new Mac OS versions without overriding them.
Of this list, only point 4 would require a processor change, that only happened because the computer was nine years old when they dropped support, and I was still fine with the performance I got out of that CPU. Had the other parts of the hardware kept up, I would have used it for longer, and I do have it running a few things, just in a less primary role.
You could, of course, just look at how much they are selling upgrades for the 13in series to get an idea. For example, a 13th Gen Intel i5 board will cost you £449, which is a considerable saving over buying a new laptop.
I usually purchase Dell, but their 17inch laptops are quite costly and so the next smaller version, 16inch seems to offer the cheaper options.
Even their 16inch latest options have soldered in memory with a maximum of 16GB. The Vostro series has removable DRAM, and ethernet port, and are circa £750, yet still the maximum DRAM is 16GB.
The Framework 16inch laptop offers a very high resolution LCD display which exceeds the Dell Vostro, and a high performance AMD processor compared to the Dell versions. I used the online builder for the Framework and the total cost excluding the M2 drive is £1602.
The cost of the Framework solution will increase when i add the M2 SSD drive, and the power supply.
Yet, the nearest equivalent Dell without discrete graphics is approx £400 more - their Alienware gaming system.
Given that i could add more RAM, add another M2 drive, exchange the motherboard for a different processor, or other options, then the Framework for the performance compared to the commercial offerings is a very good system. The Dell offering, and probably others, have a very limited upgrade path, especially if the DRAM is soldered in.
I was looking at a NUC, but the Framework package although a lot more money does offer a portable package which bridges the gap between a laptop and DIY build of a PC, knowing you are not stuck with this years model.
Last Dell (laptop) I bought, I spoke to them in detail. Asked, was there room and connection in the chassis to add a second HDD? "Yes" He said. "Are you sure I'll be able to fit the old HDD from my current laptop in there to transfer data and act as extra storage? This is important". "Yes, definitely" he said.
There wasn't. And I complained and they gave me the verbal equivalent of a shrug.
So yes they got the sale. But they won't get any more. And I sure as hell won't be recommending them any more.
My most recent main PC is a Chiilblast.Not a Dell like the previous one was also
My surprise birthday present from herself, in a couple of weeks or so, is a convertible laptop, that won't be a Dell either.
Add in friends and family and that one mis-selling will cost them a fair number of future sales.
I assume that the people on the end of the phone line are on targets to convert inquiries to sales. Of course the inquiries they don't even get won't show on anyone's targets.
The the details of the specifications on the Dell website do leave a lot to be desired. I too wanted a second hard disk space - my Dell 17inch XPS has one, but my latest 17inch Inspiron doesn't. Also, my latest 17inch Inspiron is BIOS limited to 8GB RAM despite the processor allowing for 16GB. The Dell tech support stated 16GB would not work.
It is the reduction in ports, and restriction of extending RAM on purpose (whether BIOS or soldering), which now puts me off purchasing Dell.
I now go straight to the support documentation to determine what the limits of the laptop are - which is a pain, especially when you want to compare models.
Meh - not horribly expensive.
Can get slightly older hardware for under £500 as a complete, low power, home server.
If you've got some memory and storage on a shelf then you can get that down to ~£350 with a couple of usbc adaptors (hdmi and ethernet being my preference).
It might be nice to have some cheaper options available as student laptops, with the upgrade/repairability as a major selling point.
3 years ago when my laptop failed and I needed a replacement in a hurry, I had 2 requirements. Wanted a recent AMD processor so my bollocks were not burned and to reduce the jet engine noise when the cooler cut in of my then Intel processor - and the ability to run Linux.
I was forced to buy a Lenovo paying the Windows tax AND I had to suffer a soldered SSD. I thought long and hard about this but eventually bit the bullet. It is still going OK, but when the SSD fails I will have an expensive brick.
I will probably think about one of these as a Xmas present for myself.
I recently had to deal with a family member's "ribena glass knocked over laptop" incident. Actual liquid ingress was minimal, and I was able to dismantle the machine. But the economics didn't support repair and I ended up selling the salvageable components on a well know auction site, and bits of said laptop have been shipped as far as Canada and Poland. Let's assume that the economics of Framework spares are different.* Now fast forward a couple of years, when there's more demanding software, inevitably bigger files, and newer machines are faster and more capable. Will an upgraded Framework machine still be viable option? For some it will be. But for some it won't, and that erodes the parts sales potential etc etc.
At the end of the day, technology marches on with time and maybe machine obsolescence is in fact a near enough physical law, even if we don't want it to be?
* If you've not been involved in such things as long term product support, inventory management, warehousing and logistics, then be prepared for a shock. It's remarkably expensive and if you find cheap spares it usually means somebody has got the maths badly wrong, or your buying inventory that somebody is cutting their losses on.
"Now fast forward a couple of years, when there's more demanding software, inevitably bigger files, and newer machines are faster and more capable. Will an upgraded Framework machine still be viable option? For some it will be. But for some it won't, and that erodes the parts sales potential etc etc."
I'm curious what problems you envision. If Framework continues to follow the plans they have for two generations, then one of the upgrade options is a new CPU. If you bought one of the first generation with 11th-generation Intel processors, you can open it up and swap in a 13th-generation Intel or 7th-generation AMD board keeping the rest of the computer. So if software gets bigger and you need something faster, why wouldn't that be sufficient to give you that access?
Of course, if Framework doesn't keep making mainboards or switches the format, that could stop being an option. I don't think that is likely as long as there is sufficient demand. The alternative is that the laptop can't be upgraded at all, so you'd just have to buy a new one. The value of spares is only helped if they can be used on more and more models, so if they end up being less valuable than spares for models that can't be upgraded, it would seem that's down to their company selling fewer laptops altogether.
Last August I bought a batch 3 13.5" model, i7-1280p cpu, supplying my own ram and nvme storage. Also got the various expansion cards. It was not cheap, but any machine that comes with a screwdriver is OK in my book. It fits a little snugly in a 13" targa case.
The new laptop replaced an aging (but still functional) 15" '09 MBP, the last of the Fruity hardware I'd consider purchasing, back when you could actually could upgrade your own storage and ram, or swap out the main board or other components as needed.
Truth to tell this laptop is not my daily driver, but is still a great machine. I use it on the road to connect back to the shop or various cloud servers for maintenance and issue troubleshooting, or jotting notes while enjoying morning coffee outside before ambient temperature reaches one million degrees.
Haven't messed much with other modern laptops but I do like how the BIOS can be set to how much it'll let the battery charge. If it's to be mostly plugged in all the time, they recommend around 60%. Unfortunately, being in BIOS you can't adjust it on the fly without rebooting, so if you're going to be disconnected from battery there's no simple way to switch it back to 100%. It charges via USB-C, so any charger will do, but I sprung for theirs. I normally keep 2 C's, and A, and the 1TB additional storage module installed, swapping out one of the USB's for an HDMI or DP adapter if I want to connect a larger screen, which is a rare occurrence.
Ended up putting Fedora on it. Wanted Debian but decided not to mess with driver incompatabilities as at the time Debian's kernel was too old. Fedora installed without a hitch. Have never had a GUI *nix, mostly deal with servers, RHEL and variants. Had to get used to typing dnf instead of yum. No biggie. Do not use the fingerprint reader but like how it's incorporated into the power button.
I also purchased a blank ANSI keyboard (have touched on Dvorak for 35 years or so), and later got a blank backlit keyboard but didn't like it so put the other one back. The plastic caps needed to be more opaque; you can see the LED's inside, and while not distracting (as a touch typist I'm not actually looking at the keyboard), it is visually unappealing.
My only complaint, and it's minor, was that they had to send the blank keyboard separately, and as a separate purchase. The add-on modules all came in the box with the laptop, but they said something about a different manufacturer or delivery process or something and could not just send the unit with the alternate keyboard installed. It had to be purchased and shipped separately, then I had to swap it.
In my model there are around 60 screws holding the keyboard down, so tedious, but not hard. They even have arrows pointing to many of them.
Can't recommend this machine enough. It's a solid piece of hardware, and made to be worked on, though after swapping the keyboard I haven't had occasion to pop the lid again.
Would consider getting this new larger version, but having thrown a bunch of bucks at the 13" model just last fall, can't really justify it.
The rest of it is fine, even if I prefer the 3:2 of the 13", but the GPU cartridge is a poor conceptualization of a good idea.
If they had just shipped them as bare PCBs and cooling assemblies, and had you open up the laptop like you would anyway to install all the other parts, then it would be easier for other manufacturers to supply PCIe cards in the new format to any number of 16/17" laptop manufacturers without worrying about adding a new SKU for every laptop chassis/GPU combination in the world. I can't see how this won't just disincentivize other companies from adopting the same standards as Framework is trying to put down, which should be the goal if they want to bring repairability back into the broader laptop market.
That is, unless they want their own hardware ecosystem that doesn't play nice with other manufacturers, the same thing everyone hates Apple for, rightfully so. I do hope they'll reconsider it when time comes to redesign the 16" chassis (which will come, reviewers like to complain about a two year old laptop design for whatever reason and the buyers follow), but that will essentially leave first gen FW16 owners in the dust. There really isn't any good way to get out of that mess, but I suppose if they release the schematics like they have in the past (and which is perfectly commendable) you could still get third party support.
I looked at one as soon as they come out, as a replacement of a gaming laptop that was no longer supported by the manufacturer and had a bad firmware update (the timing seemed perfect, I was willing to drop money).
As soon as you load the GPU onto it, the price goes beyond what I would reasonably pay for such a thing (and I own a gaming laptop!) before you even get into the same amount/speed of storage, RAM, etc.
Also, the modules are a bit... well... limited. 6 modules on this model (I think it used to be four) and two of those are a single USB-A slot, and a single USB-C slot. One for Ethernet. One for HDMI. One for microSD. Sure you can change them, but the modules should really be things like 2 or 3 USB slots, not just one. Hell, one module is nothing but a 3.5mm audio jack. By the time you get it back to a "normal" laptop, there are no slots left. You can argue that you wouldn't use the microSD all the time, maybe, but if you thought it important enough to order the module then surely you use it quite a bit and not just as an afterthought. Why not microSD, plus SD, plus maybe another USB-C on one module? I think few people are going to be carrying it around with a bunch of spare modules at £20 a pop (so it's £120 just to populate the basic ports!).
It's a great idea but it needs more, and it needs to justify its price. I have a friend it would be ideal for, but it still needs more to entice them beyond dropping the same amount of money on a more mainstream laptop that'll actually have more connectivity. And if you're carrying around modules (okay, they're USB-C connected but they're still non-standard), you might as well just carry around cheaper more generic adaptors.
I would also like more ports, but the modules are not large enough to put a bunch of ports in one section. A module measures 3 cm square and about 0.7 cm thick, so you're not going to be able to get two card slots and a USB port in one of those. You could probably get two USB-C ports into a module that size, although I'm not sure how that affects charging through one of those ports and connecting to a device through the other as they're both handled by one upstream port. I have hoped that others would manufacture modules to increase the set of choices. So far, only one has been made that way. Not all the ports are £20 or so, as the basic ones tend to be £9.
I ended up accepting this anyway because I've found most alternative laptops to be somewhat lacking in ports as well. Sometimes they include more in total, but that often includes something I won't use. If the alternative machine I'm considering only has a few ports as well, then I have no reason to prefer one over another.
I was looking at the 4-module version when I was after a laptop a few years ago, and it seemed a bit pointless to have a modular laptop that you'd have to fill with standard modules just to get it back to a decently-ported laptop.
I would like to support them though, it's a great idea, and more laptops should be built with repairability in mind like theirs.
If I were buying a laptop for myself, this would be a no-brainer.
However, the only laptops in this house are work supplied dross made by Dell.
I don't particularly understand why, beyond "inertia" and percieved "ease" of ordering machines by the hundred from one of the big contractors, no matter how throwaway they are.
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