back to article Indian developer fired 90 percent of tech support team, outsourced the job to AI

Here's a story from the Department of Massive and Terrifying Irony: a startup Indian software developer struggled to afford its customer support team, so outsourced it – to an AI chatbot that was apparently more efficient and cheaper. The developer is called Dukaan and offers a platform it promises allows rapid deployment of …

  1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

    Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

    Here the LLM-based chatbot seems to be steering customers toward FAQ-documents (or parroting their contents in the user's chat window) -- baisc tier 1 support duties.

    What happens when the problem is not in the FAQs, and the customer needs to be connected to (the few, remaining, staffers in) level 2 support? How does that happen?

    1. Dimmer Silver badge

      Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

      So, how is this AI solution worse than Intuit support?

      They both read from a script and usually have to google the answers.

      1. rcxb Silver badge

        Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

        Because a human won't keep repeating "I don't understand, please select from options 1-5" while you're screaming at them that you've got a different issues that you need to escalate to a superior, and then suddenly drop your call/chat when you don't.

        That's when all the performance and savings come from. Turn your support methods into a dystopian hell-scape and customers will very quickly give up on support and just cancel their service.

        The only time a chat bot is useful (using the term loosely) for me is when all I need to do is something that should by all rights be a check-box on the company website, but isn't, and so you're herded into the automated chat bot option.

        So there are plenty of ways to manipulate the system, to make the automated bots performance look good, even when it's utter trash wasting everyone's time.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

      After the third time you've asked them to select any of the options 1 though 6, and all you hear are screams, just terminate the call - problem solved!

    3. jmch Silver badge

      Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

      But that simply means it is working as desired. The chatbot is replacing the large amount of relatively clueless level 1 support. You keep the more experienced / better qualified level 2 support in place. Of course having level 1 support having both faster response and quicker resolution is great, but more importantly it has to have as-good or better resolution %age to keep the level 2 support from being overwhelmed.

      1. juice

        Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

        > You keep the more experienced / better qualified level 2 support in place

        But... where do they get their experience and training from, if there's no level-1 positions? And how much more expensive and time consuming will the training be for new recruits?

        I can just see the future ads now: "People wishing to join our level 2 support team must already have 5 years experience in a level 2 support team..."

        Admittedly, at some point, level 2 support will probably also be replaced by a chatbot, once people are confident enough to give such things access to financial and/or technical systems.

        And if you follow that chain far up enough, eventually the entire company will be automated and profit margins will become razor thin as your "secret sauce" gets commoditised into something which someone else's AI can duplicate at virtually zero cost. And then, even the board will find themselves out of a job...

        1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
          Alert

          Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

          And then, even the board will find themselves out of a job...

          Perhaps AI should be applied top-down. Certainly quickest return on investment, given the $$$ pay for the top, each position replaced at the top saves more than a position replaced at the bottom

      2. rcxb Silver badge

        Re: Support Level I LLM-Chatbot Works Fine, Until ...

        it is working as desired. The chatbot is replacing the large amount of relatively clueless level 1 support.

        That's the claim, but do we have any evidence it's actually doing so?

        I remember Verizon call centers years ago, where the reps would tell me everything was fine, my issue was going to be fixed "tomorrow" every time I called, and would mark cases as resolved every time. I bet those agents have superb support statistics, showing short calls and all issues resolved within minutes, even though none of them ever actually helped me (or anyone else).

  2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    What ?

    An Indian company that cannot find competent technicians to staff its help desk ?

    What is the world coming to ?

    1. Mike007 Bronze badge

      Re: What ?

      If the Indian call centres I have dealt with are representative then they have always had difficulty hiring competent staff...

      (Not saying Indians are all incompetent, but the competent ones probably want a higher salary than <Insert least favourite company> call centres offer)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What ?

        … and have very high churn.

        PMC Retail in Abingdon/Vadodara … I’m looking at you here.

  3. Khaptain Silver badge

    Hope MS are listening

    Maybe replacing the "MVP"s on MS forums would greatly increase the level of usefull replies.

    Question : I have a problem with our radius authentication and 22H2.

    Answer : Hiy name is Chukka I am a MVP. have you performed a SFC /scannow. Have you tried reinstalling Windows. Or, sorry that Is a question for another forum.

    Nothing is more frustrating the sifting through this endless drivel.

    1. Filippo Silver badge

      Re: Hope MS are listening

      I'd be surprised to hear that SFC /scannow has ever fixed anything.

      1. NLCSGRV

        Re: Hope MS are listening

        > I'd be surprised to hear that SFC /scannow has ever fixed anything.

        Unlikely, but at least it made the MVP feel just that little bit better.

    2. IanRS

      Re: Hope MS are listening

      I assume MVP means something like Microsoft Verified Professional or similar style 'qualification', but I always see it as Minimum Viable Product - too much exposure to inappropriate Agile practices. Having thought about though, I don't see why my interpretation should be seen as inaccurate.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Hope MS are listening

        You have to love MS's definition especially the words "expert" and "deep knowledge".

        "Microsoft Most Valuable Professionals, or MVPs, are technology experts who passionately share their knowledge with the community. They are always on the "bleeding edge" and have an unstoppable urge to get their hands on new, exciting technologies. They have very deep knowledge of Microsoft products and services"

        Expert = I know how to perform a basic search on the interweb..

        Deep Knowledge = I repeat in parrot fashion that which I have managed to glean from Google, Reddit or some other source which goes way above my actual knowledge/experience.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Hope MS are listening

          Microsoft Most Valuable Professionals, or MVPs

          And, as we all know, MCSE stands for "Must Call Somone Experienced"..

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Hope MS are listening

            Must Collar Some Passing Expert?

          2. Shred

            Re: Hope MS are listening

            MSCE - I prefer "Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert"

            1. Jude Bradley

              Re: Hope MS are listening

              I know which defunct website you used to use.

    3. Ace2 Silver badge

      Re: Hope MS are listening

      Last time I needed help on a similar forum, I browsed for a while. It was obvious what support-script questions would be in the “MVP”’s immediate reply, so I did all the legwork up front and answered them in my initial post.

      Did that stop an MVP from posting that same scripted message in response?

      No, no it did not.

      1. NeilPost

        Re: Hope MS are listening

        I’m sure they opened with asking what your problem was too.

    4. Excused Boots Bronze badge

      Re: Hope MS are listening

      I do believe that once upon a time, being an MVP actually did mean something, specifically that you had considerable skills in and knowledge of a particular facet of MS’s portfolio.

      Now, I alas, suspect it is based less of knowledge and willingness to help others, but rather ‘do you have a YouTube channel / Podcast’ etc. in which you slavishly extol and push MS products’.

      Sad really, a bit like the old MSCE qualification, which I do hold, but I got it decades ago, when you did actually have to know what you were talking about to pass the exams. Today, it’s all a bit ‘meh’, isn’t it?

    5. veti Silver badge

      Re: Hope MS are listening

      While I sympathise, I feel I have to point out that your "question" is actually nothing of the sort, and I would also have a lot of sympathy for someone posting meaninglessly generic responses to such a prompt.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Hope MS are listening

        The actual question, and it was real was as follows ..

        The latest update on Win 11 has broken automatic machine Wifi authentification with our radius server.. User are now obliged to manually accept the connection whereas before it was automatic, everything was running fine before the latest update. Where should we look in order to debug this problem. We currently push the parameters via GPO.

        The actual problem was due to the fact that a certificate should have been pushed through a GPO but was not.. Windows 10, and Win11 before the update, did not suffer as they could fall back to using using user/machine credentials BUT the latest update forbid this method of authentication, CHAPV2, so broke the radius authentication for W11 which did not have the appropriate certificate installed.. After pushing the correct certificate everything was back to order.

  4. sarusa Silver badge
    Devil

    This kind of makes sense

    Having suffered through useless Indian outsourced support many times, even very recently, AI has to be better since they're nothing more than just blindly reading scripts without comprehending a single thing. I'm sure well trained AI can be much more helpful than just 'You must to be rebooting, I cannot be helping you further if you can not to be doing the needful'.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: This kind of makes sense

      * Other nationalities staffing the helldesk who have to follow lobotomised scripts are available.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This kind of makes sense

      My least favourite phrase. I once replied, that "we cannot do the needful until you do the needful too" It actually worked!

  5. Mishak Silver badge

    I can see that kind-of "working"

    Customer: "Can you help me with X?"

    AI: "Good day, I'm Helpy, your Genuine People Personality* support assistant"

    <Line clicks>

    AI: "Hello? Hello? Are you still there?"

    [A very short chat requiring no follow-up]

    *(C) Douglas Adams

    1. Bebu Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: I can see that kind-of "working"

      "Genuine People Personality* support assistant"

      Douglas Adams forsaw so much of this dystopia - we are spoilt for choice trying to identify a contemporary Sirius Cybernetics Corp. (qv) - that one suspects he would have been happy that he departed before having to live through it.

    2. NLCSGRV

      Re: I can see that kind-of "working"

      Share and enjoy!

    3. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: I can see that kind-of "working"

      Go stick your head in a pig!

  6. IGotOut Silver badge

    The last Indian Call Centre...

    I had to deal with was Virgin Media.

    AI would be a huge welcome.

    The most incompetent, useless bunch of script readers on the planet.

    Have you rebooted?

    Yes about 5 times.

    Ok I need you to reboot again......

    Along with the.

    I'm going to connect to your device and make a change.....Ok that's done now reboot and it will be fixed.

    What change? It's just that I worked in networking for 20 years and I'm curious what change on the router will fix the loss of signal from the remote end. I'm also curious how you've connected with the link hard down.

    I made a change, it will work now after a reboot, .....

    1. vtcodger Silver badge

      Re: The last Indian Call Centre...

      "The most incompetent, useless bunch of script readers on the planet."

      Most incompetent? Nonsense. The most incompetent, useless bunch of script readers on the planet are at Comcast. Others may try to beat them out. But success is unlikely.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The last Indian Call Centre...

        While there will always be a worst of the worst title holder, you touch on the deeper point. These companies WANT to waste a much of your time as possible. They hate their customers and pay people to abuse them instead of helping them because it is slightly cheaper.

        So while a nice chatbot may be as competent and much more polite than your nightmare techs at Comcast, Verizon, etc. that will only be true till they program an antisocial chatbot to do the same thing.

    2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: The last Indian Call Centre...

      Demon moving their service desk there was the last straw - particularly when I had a persistent error [1] and every drone I spoke to wanted to go therough the same script even though I already had a call open and quoting the call number to them did absolutely nothing..

      [1] It was days of ADSL - the line connector in the road would fill with water and the copper would corrode. Mr BT would turn up, clean the wires and all would be fine again. With the UK helldesk they would look back at my calls history and call out BT - total of about 5 minutes phone time. When they moved the helldesk to India that went up to 90 minutes (which co-incidentally was the lovel my diastolic blood pressure reached when I was on the phone to them..) and *every* time I had to go therough the ridiculous script. I even had one of the drones scream at me that I was disrespecting him when I tried to get him to go past the script.. I left Demon fairly soon after that and gave 'appalling helpdesk' as one of the reasons.

      1. Excused Boots Bronze badge

        Re: The last Indian Call Centre...

        Personally, I have no real problem with outsourcing help desks to some arse end of the planet where they pay the workers whatever passes for minimum wage there - and their training consists of ability to read from a script, because, let’s, be honest, the vast, vast majority of customer issues can probably be fixed with a simple ‘turn it off and on again response’.

        My issue is with companies who don’t go beyond this, they have no second or third line support, or if on paper they do, it’s actually one ancient greybeard engineer who it is impossible to contact directly, and even if you could they are snowed under with work and may get around to your problem by December!

        And a large number of companies accept this as a viable support model, it’ll probably work for, 90% say of customer’s issues, but if it doesn’t for you personally, well ’sucks to be you really, doesn’t it?’

        In a way, I suppose that’s an example of capitalism in action, no doubt some bean counter in Comcast or Virgin Media (other equally useless providers are available on both sides of the pond) has run the spreadsheet calculations and determined that if we do this, it maximises income!

        At least here in the UK, there are a number of much smaller, niche, internet providers, who, yes, charge more for a particular service but do pride themselves in having first-rate support provision, with call centres in the UK and operatives fully trained and knowledgable on the products, plus an ability to escalate.

        I, understand, though, from my American colleagues, that isn’t necessarily the case in the US. The vast majority of people have, at most, a choice of one or two providers, both equally useless.

      2. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: The last Indian Call Centre...

        I was foolish enough to move house after the Demon helpdesk did similarly.

        Background: I was in the Tenner A Month prepay that got Demon set up, dial up only of course; paid on my personal credit card but address "care of workplace" as I was renting various small apartments. Bought a house, now paying via Direct Debit on my bank account, they know my home address, yay. Years pass, ADSL becomes available, Demon account moved over, no trouble at all: none of this "ISP provides a ready set up router", all DIY - they even looked up the modem model after I said what I'd bought and agreed it was pucka.

        Move again and phone to get the ADSL onto the new number. By now, Demon had also moved on, apparently into its dotage. First, apparently I wasn't the account holder and had no authority to make any changes - seems they had copied across my first account address and no longer understood what "care of" means, let alone that the DD is obviously from a personal account and they had had my long-term address for years! In the end, they created a new account and I cancelled the old DD!

        Oh, new account - I've just lost the Demon user name I'd had since Day 1, when Tony and I were hacking at the KA9Q variants that a number of other Demon users were also running. No, it is not possible to change the username on the account, don't be absurd. Actually, one person *did* try, which ended up with my having a *third* username! Don't ask, I have no idea.

        Once ADSL was running had no reason to risk tech support again, but the next time they faffed with something (email IIRC) obviously jumped to another ISP (el reg commentards recommended Zen at that time).

        PS anyone want a couple of router/modems set up for Demon?

  7. Nifty

    I reckon that about a third of my work could be done by an AI assistant - and I'd love it to happen. The delay is management anguishing about leaking of confidential data back to an AI as it learns. Solution must be a private cloud hosting your own pre-trained AI model that learns further as it goes, no worse than your cloud hosted CRM system.

    Meanwhile, about the story - very suspect, probably just a self-promotional publicity play.

    1. Adrian 4

      > Meanwhile, about the story - very suspect, probably just a self-promotional publicity play.

      Shortly to be followed by the announcement of an automated support-desk product.

      1. Howard Sway Silver badge

        Yes, if he has indeed invented a miraculous AI helpdesk system, you would think that his company could make a lot more money selling the highly in-demand AI helpdesk system, rather than some tedious old stuff that deploys an online store.

        The problem is then that he'd need to have an AI helpdesk to support customers of his AI helpdesk.

        "Hello, AI helpdesk helpdesk, what seems to be the problem with your helpdesk?"

        This could cause some screeching feedback loops if the AI helpdesks start contacting each other for help about themselves.

        "

        1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

          Yo dawg, etc.

        2. Mike007 Bronze badge

          Client Helpdesk: I have detected an error on startup. Please assist.

          Helpdesk Helpdesk: Please reboot.

          *Client disconnected*

          Client Helpdesk: I have detected an error on startup. Please assist.

          Helpdesk Helpdesk: Please reboot. This resolved the issue last time.

          *Client disconnected*

          Client Helpdesk: I have detected an error on startup. Please assist.

          Helpdesk Helpdesk: Please reboot. This has resolved the issue multiple times in the past.

          *Client disconnected*

    2. martinusher Silver badge

      What we know as 'idiot following a script' used to be known as a Production System, its an early form of AI. Getting the computer to read the script (and understand the replies) is a step up from someone who isn't that fluent in your language.

      It always amazes me when I have to call a company and end up with a stupid voice menu, or worse a half-assed attempt to understand your speech. Amazon's Echo has been out for years now and its language abilities are outstanding (although it does have a voice menu like tendency to read a long piece of text from time to time -- very frustrating).

      Anyway, there's the Golden Rule of Customer Service -- "Anyone who is smart enough to be able to sit in a cube and answer customer questions intelligently is wasted in a job where they have to sit in a cube and answer customer questions -- they're likely to find a better job elsewhere".

      1. Mike007 Bronze badge

        Tip for voice menus where they prompt with a vague "please tell me your problem" then hope you say one of the magic keywords so it can respond to that word with an irrelevant suggestion... Try saying "I want to speak to someone" (if that fails then "customer support" is more universal, but I always try the first one first because it is more satisfying when it works)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          And if it insists on you telling it what you want before it'll let you talk to a human, start talking gibberish.

          "Kumquat penguin."

          "I didn't understand. Would you please rephrase your request?"

          "Couch tuxedo!"

          "Transferring you to a customer service representative..."

      2. doublelayer Silver badge

        "Amazon's Echo has been out for years now and its language abilities are outstanding"

        My experience is different. I don't own one, but I have used others' ones, and they strike me as the voice equivalent of command line interfaces. Yes, they are pretty accurate at detecting what words I said (I hear people with certain accents don't get that either), but they don't parse a lot of different sentence structures. Those who installed custom skills had to instruct it to open the skills like running a program, I.E. saying a specific name. They never seemed to add new types of sentences that the machine would understand to mean to submit a request to that program. It also failed to understand the sentence "Do not tell me about Amazon Music Unlimited anymore", which it helpfully discussed every time that device's owner requested it to play a song. If the sentence was in a form they already expected, it was fine. Otherwise, it would just reject it and ask you to say something else.

  8. Kurgan
    Trollface

    AI = Artifical Indian

    So AI means Artificial Indian?

  9. NXM Silver badge

    TalkTalk

    Judging by my recent experience with their human "support team" they could've been replaced by AI running on a Psion Organizer to better effect. At least until its PP3 battery ran out.

  10. Boolian

    Minority Support

    Indian Call centre staff already hallucinate car accidents, and MS Windows issues, so AI hallucinating tech-support is a natural progression.

    I suppose in some future semiconditionally modified subinverted plagal past, I can expect a call, or email, informing me that an issue I had not realised I had on-occured, re-in-oncurring, mayan haven-not haven happending, has now been, will haven on-been already resolved.

    Err, thanks, I suppose?

    Wait... how much!? Yeah, well, I sent, will haven-on sending the cheque yesterday...

  11. YetAnotherXyzzy

    Years ago I was working tier 3 support for my then employer. We started using a third party chatbot (I'm not going to call it AI to make it sound cool) that was trained on our online FAQ. We used it as a tier zero, jumping in the space between when a ticket was opened and before a human could get to it. If memory serves, it was along the lines of "we've received your request and we'll be with you soon, but in the meantime do any of these FAQ articles help?". Below the no-more-than-three links to FAQs were two buttons to press: yes that helped and close my ticket as solved, and no they didn't help. Press the second and the ticket immediately went into the tier 1 queue. Ignore the buttons entirely and the ticket would go into the human queue in a bit.

    it worked great and as far as I know is still in use. No humans were fired because the purpose was not to cut costs but rather to improve resolution times and to free up support staff for things the FAQs didn't cover. Which it did.

    A bonus that we didn't anticipate is that it revealed which FAQs were not clearly written, and as we cleaned them up the department's overall metrics improved.

  12. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "Resolution time plunged as well – from two hours and 13 minutes when humans were doing it, down to three minutes and 12 seconds with AI on the job."

    Customer takes less time to realise they're not going to get answers.

    1. Excused Boots Bronze badge

      Or customer realises more quickly that they are not going to get any meaningful help here and changes supplier!

  13. Grunchy Silver badge

    So What

    I fired all sorts of stuff because of Hyper Text: newspapers, TV guides, Television, I fired all my local radio stations and tune into exotic African, Japanese, and South American stations on radio garden.

    I'm surprised there even is a "tech support" business anymore, any sort of problem I usually "google" it (on duck duck go) and find answers faster and more specific anyway.

    Also, half the time "tech support" is merely a person following an "expert system" diagnostic tree, if there even is a tech support channel in the first place...

    1. Excused Boots Bronze badge

      Re: So What

      Fair enough, except who do you think originally writes and posts up the ‘solutions’ that you find on Google, (or DDG)?

  14. Matthew "The Worst Writer on the Internet" Saroff

    Call me a Cynic

    But maybe Dukkan was complete pants before the transition.

  15. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
    Coat

    "Hello, IT..."

    "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

    "OK, bye."

  16. Daedalus

    Yeah right.

    India has a history of, shall we say, exaggerated competence. Remember when every Indian software company was at CMM 5? And of course there's the bait and switch staffing.

    Maybe compared to the bottom feeders of outsourced IT hell desk, an AI is better. That's more believable.

  17. Winkypop Silver badge
    Terminator

    AI scammers

    I think, therefore I scam

  18. sketharaman

    Not Whether But When

    For at least the last 10 years, I've received, on an average, better quality of customer service from chatbots than Human CSRs. Six years ago, I wondered if chatbots can replace humans. I think it's clear now that the question is not whether but when. But there's no need to cry for CSRs - by relieving them from mundane tasks, chatbots will enable human CSRs to focus on more strategic things. https://gtm360.com/blog/2017/05/26/can-chatbots-replace-humans/

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