back to article Post-Brexit tariffs on cross EU-UK electrical vehicle imports still going ahead

Moves to fight off a new "rules of origin" edict that some electric vehicle automakers claim could shut down their operations in the UK aren't going anywhere, judging by the words of a senior Euro Commish official. The fresh rule starts from January 1, 2024, and means that British and European carmakers can't get that sweet …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fuck business

    They really meant it.

    1. Spamfast
      Trollface

      Re: Fuck business

      Ah, but look what we've gained. Instead of faceless EU bureaucrats telling us what to do we've got Rishi Sunak, Jacob Rees-Mogg and quite possibly Boris Johnson again looking after our interests. What could possibly go wrong?

      1. cipnt

        Re: Fuck business

        Vote Leave to free the UK from all the EU regulations, they said... well, whether you like it or not, we're still affected by EU regulations directly or indirectly.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fuck business

          Just to extend that slightly: We're still affected by EU regulations directly or indirectly, and now we have no control at all over those regulations. This situation was inevitable, entirely predictable, and does not benefit the UK at all.

          1. GBE

            Re: Fuck business

            Just to extend that slightly: We're still affected by EU regulations directly or indirectly, and now we have no control at all over those regulations. This situation was inevitable, entirely predictable, and does not benefit the UK at all.

            Not only was it predictable; it was predicted -- loudly and repeatedly in almost those exact words.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Fuck business

              And a significant number of the EU regulations were a result of UK interests when we worked with the EU to set things up. I see the change from the EU as just like sitting on a toilet reading a newspaper, and no toilet paper ... a return to the early days when I was a kid and the UK was just the UK. After we joined the EU originally we upgraded the family cottage and removed the Thunderbox from the back-yard. But looking at today's inflation I think I might need to return to newspaper now.

          2. nobody who matters

            Re: Fuck business

            We never had more than a very peripheral influence or control over the vast majority of EU regulation. That was part of the problem.

            If you think that the UK had any significant influence within the EU, you better think again. The only EU regulation that the UK had any influence over were the ones that we went along with. There was very little success in steering regulation that the UK disagreed with. You don't have to look far to find the evidence for this either!

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              FAIL

              "We never had more than a very peripheral influence or

              control over the vast majority of EU regulation. "

              Or perhaps UK MEP's failure to work with other countries parties because they are soooo special

              Or electing UKIP MEP's who trousered their money and did litereally b**ger all work for their constiuents (IE the UK).

              Or that might have been because the UK had the smallest number of civil servants in the EU secretariat* Even Romaina was better represented.

              Or maybe that's just a string of stories you read in the Daily Heil.

              Here's the thing. The UK didn't take the European Parliament very seriously long after it became a very serious body indeed. They sent the clown prince Farage there (but they'd never be stupid enough to elect him to a "real" constituency, despite his trying (so far) 7 times).

              *A body of 46 000 people (1/2 the size of the UK DWP) to administer 28 countries.

            2. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Fuck business

              There was the fishery industry, where the guy supposed to represent British interests participated in two of 33 meetings. His name was Nigel Farage.

              1. MJI Silver badge

                Re: Fuck business

                farage

                string up the froggie named traitor

                1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  Happy

                  string up the froggie named traitor

                  Now think of all the good he's done..

                  What helps currency speculators (which is what Farage was before he bacame the "Man of the PayPal" we know to day) is chaos

                  Speculators always have a plan to make money when exchange rates go on a roller-coaster.

                  Of course they need some massive event to put a major world currency in play and start making some real money.

                  Like 17 million deluded/greedy/gullible people committing a massive act of national self harm for example.

                  He salutes the people of (mostly) England.

                  UK currency speculators couldn't have earned anywhere near the bonuses they did without you.

                  Of course the real economy took about a 5% hit. But those are little people. Right Nige?

            3. Sir Sham Cad

              Re: Fuck business

              We had a Veto.

              We elected a load of Eurosceptics as MEPs. They didn't turn up to work. That was the problem.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fuck business

          Some numptys still don't understand that trade relies on agreed regulations.

          No matter how much sovereignty you have eaten.

        3. abend0c4

          Re: Fuck business

          If anything illustrates the delusion of equality of sovereignty, this is it.

          In theory this is a zero-sum gain: if the EU puts tariffs on UK vehicles, then the UK reciprocates: honour satisfied.

          In practice, if the EU puts tariffs on UK vehicles, UK electric vehicle manufacturing collapses as the home market is not of a viable scale and the UK has to buy vehicles from the EU anyway.

          At least Cuba got cut off at a time when there were some classic models around. Can't see 50-year-old Micras having quite the same nostalgic allure.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Fuck business

            Agree, except I love the nostalgia value of my 25 yr old Micra now. In another 25 when electric Johnny Cabs roam the streets it will be quite the sight.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Fuck business

              >I love the nostalgia value of my 25 yr old Micra now. In another 25 when electric Johnny Cabs roam the streets it will be quite the sight.

              In 10 years only poor people will be driving dead-dinosaur powered cars

              In 25 years only rich people will be driving dead-dinosaur powered cars

              1. cyberdemon Silver badge

                Re: Fuck business

                > In 25 years only rich people will be driving dead-dinosaur powered cars

                In 25 years only rich people will be driving cars

                1. Ken G Silver badge
                  Trollface

                  Re: Fuck business

                  In 25 years cars will be driving people.

          2. nobody who matters

            Re: Fuck business

            "........UK electric vehicle manufacturing collapses as the home market is not of a viable scale and the UK has to buy vehicles from the EU anyway......."

            I think you underestimate the size of the UK new car market compared with the rest of Europe ;)

            In 2022 the UK car market swallowed more than 1.6 million new cars; the second biggest market in Europe after Germany (2.6 million), and ahead of France (1.5 million) and Italy (1.3 million). Spain was next at 0.8 million (half the size of the UK market), with other countries down the list falling increasingly far below this. The total for the EU is only around 10 million.

            The UK is a very important market for EU car manufacturers, and will remain so as the move to EV only accelerates. These tariffs serve no beneficial purpose to either the UK or the EU.

            The figures are here: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2022-full-year-europe-car-sales-per-eu-uk-and-efta-country/, along with a bar chart which illustrates clearly the significance of the UK car market within Europe.

            1. abend0c4

              Re: Fuck business

              About a third of the cars made in the UK are made by JLR. Most of the rest are: the Mini, Nissan Juke, Nissan Qashqai, Nissan Leaf, Suzuki Swace and Toyota Corolla (though electric Mini production is already moving to China). As it happens, the total number of cars manufactured in the UK isn't that different to the total number of cars bought. But the cars that are made in the UK and the cars that are bought in the UK aren't the same cars.

              The relatively small number of models we make are only viable because a significant proportion get exported. If the cost of exporting goes up they'll either sell less or the production will be moved elsewhere. As it happens, JLR only export around 20% of their volume to the EU, so they'll probably not be too affected. I doubt Bentley and Aston Martin customers are too price-sensitive either. Maybe saying goodbye to mass-market car manufacturing is inevitable (as Patrick Minford predicted). I'm sure the EU will be happy to have a further discussion about tariffs at that point.

            2. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: Fuck business

              >” These tariffs serve no beneficial purpose to either the UK or the EU.”

              At this stage they do, their intent is to get manufacturers to build manufacturing capability in the UK and EU, rather than simply depend on China, which the US will almost certainly target to protect its onshore EV industry, just as it is doing in IT and mobile telecoms…

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Fuck business

                "At this stage they do, their intent is to get manufacturers to build manufacturing capability in the UK and EU, rather than simply depend on China, which the US will almost certainly target to protect its onshore EV industry, just as it is doing in IT and mobile telecoms…"

                All of the politicians in those governments have spent the last bunch of decades banning the sorts of industries that are required to produce the parts for an EV. They didn't do it in an outright manner and just pass laws banning steel mills, but in more insidious ways such as making it very difficult to add plating and painting to metal parts. If they had come out and forced the mills to close, they'd have big unions down their throats. By attacking down at the ankles so it isn't possible to get to a finished component or that it's been made too expensive and gets off-shored, the perception is that evil foreign countries have poached the business. I can't say for certain that this sort of thing has been part of a master plan because sheer incompetence and the law of unintended consequences could be factors too. Reducing environmental pollution is a laudable goal and ususally the one trotted out when decimating heavy industry, but it never does reduce pollution, it just moves it someplace else.

                If the US/UK/EUR want EV's made in those places, they need to have a hard look at the governmental impediments to producing everything from a simple fastener to assembling the entire vehicle. When I had a manufacturing company, I constantly felt like the "government" was a ever present foe working against me.

            3. Pier Reviewer

              Re: Fuck business

              The UK’s new car consumption is disproportionately large for its size (1/7 of all new cars sold in EU+UK were sold in the UK). But that’s still a relatively small fraction of the overall market. Don’t fall for the “big hitter” trap - as a proportion of the EU the UK market is still small.

              The EU’s choice is between protecting itself from US/China or not. “Not” means the EU battery market likely dies in the face of gov subsidies from US/China. 6/7ths of something is greater than all of nothing, so I expect the EU aren’t going to back off.

              There may be a little scope for tweaking things at the edges, but pain is coming one way or another.

      2. Andy 73 Silver badge

        Re: Fuck business

        Everything. And then we vote them out.

        Good, isn't it?

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Fuck business. They really meant it.

      Actually Boris Johnson said this.

      In fact you could sum up his "philosophy" (as far as he has one) as

      "Fuck business" (over Brexit)

      "Fuck America" (over the Norther Ireland/RoI border-that's-not-a-border mess and Joe Biden's interest in it)

      I'd include "F**k smart young blondes, even if you're already married" but he's never said that out loud so I couldn't include that. It's more of an impression I have about him.

      But the idea that (political) actions have actual physical (and financial) consequences IRL doesn't really seem to penetrate the majority of the public school and Oxbridge people who are running the UK government at the moment. And hasn't done so for a very long time.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Fuck business. They really meant it.

        This would be funny if it weren't so sad.

        When big businesses like Amazon, Google, Meta, etc. try to get laws changed so that it's easier for them to pay less tax, sell our data, etc. everyone here is screaming about how we can't let business dictate our laws (i.e. in a nutshell, "fuck business") and that government should stand up to them.

        Yet when a politician says that businesses shouldn't attempt to influence discussions on a huge political and constitutional change (i.e. "fuck business") you're all screaming "what a stupid politician".

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fuck business. They really meant it.

          When they are stupid, yes I am......

          If a company/group of companies are trying to pull one over, absolutely I want politicians to stop them and stand up for us (which given the supranational companies you highlight, is likely to be most of the time).

          If a group of politicians are doing something that will have significantly negative impact on a lot of companies and the economy in a wide sense, and are importantly skating over details or outright trying to mislead the voting public, I want all companies to highlight that / try to make voting public aware of the likely outcomes/consequences from the perspective of the company.

          Is that hard to understand (or unreasonable in any way)?

      2. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

        Re: Fuck business. They really meant it.

        You think the red-rosette and yellow-rosette Oxbridge graduates will do any better?

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Fuck business

      And proceeded to walk the talk by f**king up the funding of Britishvolt with the not unexpected inevitable outcome…

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fuck business

        Britishvolt failed because it couldn't raise enough funding despite a large grant from the government.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Fuck business

          The government funding was promised, the doing of the paperwork was not a priority and so monies didn’t materialise and without paperwork the promise could not be used to underpin borrowing…

          From experience in the 80s of getting monies out of (a Conservative) government, it does look like nothing has changed. Dealing with the EU, whilst bureaucratic, was alot less stressful.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fuck business

          Britishvolt failed because it was complete bollocks, jingoism, empty promises and downright lies to begin with. A lot like Brexit itself.

          There were a few getting rich off the back of it, in their plush office in Mayfair and their other plush office in some stately home, but I don't think they ever thought they'd deliver a productive and profitable battery manufacturing plant.

        3. hoola Silver badge

          Re: Fuck business

          And did actually make anything or have any customers to buy the batteries

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fuck business

      That quote again. Boris was specifically talking about the CBI who should go forth and multiply. He was right to do so as it turns out.

    5. hoola Silver badge

      Re: Fuck business

      Maybe ask the question as to how the EU makers are able to avoid the tariffs?

      Is it because they are importing the batteries from China into the EU and that conveniently bypasses the tariff?

  2. codejunky Silver badge

    Be proud

    'We are all gonna fry' green madness is so important that the solution of EV's must be made difficult to source and more expensive. Surely if there is such concern then it doesnt matter where the product comes from we need to allow it to be available?

    Of course from my perspective its idiots acting like idiots over the latest religion so I can laugh at the stupidity of it all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Be proud

      Of course from my perspective its idiots acting like idiots over the latest religion so I can laugh at the stupidity of it all.

      Yes, It is your perspective's idiots acting like idiots over the demonstrably FAILED Brexit religion. Good selfawareness on your part.

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Be proud

      Surely if there is such concern then it doesnt matter where the product comes from we need to allow it to be available?

      Indeed, and perhaps this is where the WTO needs to step in and follow it's mandate to remove tariffs?

    3. MJI Silver badge

      Re: Be proud

      Ah the latest failed brexshit religion

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Be proud

        @MJI

        "Ah the latest failed brexshit religion"

        Eh?

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Be proud

          Yes brexshit was a religion rather than a sensible move.

          And it is failing, however the fall out will result in the death of pound sterling.

          Of people my childrens age, so far one is a leaver, most of the rest are rejoiners, a few have no opinion, the two youngest had no choice, and they have to live with it.

          Yes rejoin with the euro, free movement, just what the leavers wanted as we had an excellent deal, best in the EU. It will happen.

          They may let us have King William on the euro currency though.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Be proud

            @MJI

            "Yes brexshit was a religion rather than a sensible move."

            Ah! Sorry I really didnt understand your comment.

            "And it is failing, however the fall out will result in the death of pound sterling."

            Why? The GBP is about the same exchange rate with the EUR as 2010/2011. The UK was certain to be in recession seems we will not be in 2023 and the Eurozone is. At no point am I claiming the economy is being managed well but greenies caused the energy inflation and covid policy of printing money and lockdowns was supported by some people who thought the consequences are worth it. This affects other countries other than the UK.

            "Of people my childrens age, so far one is a leaver, most of the rest are rejoiners, a few have no opinion, the two youngest had no choice, and they have to live with it."

            This does bring an interesting (curiosity) question of ages to beliefs. And yes they have to live with it just as we had to live with the EU and had no choice (yet regularly promised because leave was popular).

            "Yes rejoin with the euro, free movement, just what the leavers wanted as we had an excellent deal, best in the EU. It will happen."

            One of the most difficult aspects of remain was that if we leave we lose our one off 'special' privilege of not being completely in the EU. The opt outs and keeping our currency being pretty necessary to be worth voting remain to some people. With that gone its harder to find support to sell the country into the union with a shared currency. The EU is perpetually in crisis so while you await our certain rejoin, I await the more probable implosion of the EU.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The EV cult

    Has some strange tenets.

  4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "there will not be sufficient battery production supplies in the UK or in Europe by 2025 and 2030"

    Which won't really be a problem given that there will not be enough nuclear energy generation to supply them all anyway.

    Anyone who believes that the tens of millions of ICEs rolling around today will all be replaced by EVs in the next six and a half years needs to come and see this bridge I have for sale . . .

    Not to mentiont that the overall green credentials of EVs are still to be demonstrated.

    Are those batteries really 100% recyclable ?

    And how many more are going to die in the cobalt mines just to make another hipster happy ?

    1. Ochib

      There are about 95% recyclable or they are used as battery storage in places like the Johan Cruijff Arena in Amsterdam

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        >” There are about 95% recyclable”

        In to what and at what cost?

        From what has been published about the large scale battery recycling scheme in Norway, recycling basically means grind up and use as lithium ore. So yes recycled, just not in the way many envisage.

      2. cyberdemon Silver badge
        Unhappy

        > The[y] are about 95% recyclable

        In theory, perhaps. But in practice, it's still cheaper and easier to send a kid down a mine for some cobalt/copper/manganese/nickel, and drain a tropical aquifer for some Lithium. And it will remain so for some time.

        Recycled batteries are (usually, so far) poor-quality and are considered a fire risk.

      3. hoola Silver badge

        Recycling is irrelevant at the moment as there is not enough virgin material to meet demand and there are not batteries being recycled.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Buy a pasty and visit the Cornish lithium mines!

      And how many more are going to die in the cobalt mines just to make another hipster happy ?

      Greens don't care about that. Out of site, out of mind. They pay premiums for artisanal bread and beer, and artisanal mining's the same, isn't it? Lovingly crafted by artisans working in a sustainable environment! Ok, so it really means effectively kids and slave labor crawling into holes that frequently collapse, but it's a small sacrifice to save the planet. Especially when it's other people making the sacrifice and leaving massive mines and pollution in places like DRC that are easily visible from space.

      But

      .. and 60 percent of its battery originate from either the UK or EU. If they don't hit the right ratio, a 10 percent tariff kicks in when exporting the vehicles from the UK to the EU, or vice-versa.

      I'm sure there are weasel-words around this so 'orginate' means 'assembled'. I'm also fairly certain that neither the UK nor the EU has much in the way of lithium extraction, nor much of any of the other materials that go into battery packs. Then there's also a fair bit of plastic, but that'll be biopolymers after the petroleum industry is shut down.

      And then there'll be a 21st Century 'gas' crisis because there won't be enough electricity to charge all the EVs people are being forced to buy. See also-

      https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2023/07/05/as-predicted-wind-industry-blackmails-the-uk-demands-yet-more-subsidies/

      The industry is claiming that unforeseen rising costs now necessitate and justify three actions:

      1) A vast increase in the budget for the fifth auction (AR5) of Contracts for Difference subsidies, with an increase of two and half times the current levels for non-floating offshore wind alone;

      2) Special new targets and thus market shares for floating offshore wind, one of the most expensive of all forms of generation, and, most importantly of all,

      3) a revision to the auction rules so that the winners are not determined by lowest bids but by an administrative decision that weights bids according to their “value” in contributing towards the Net Zero targets.

      I thought the 'renewables' scumbags had been telling us that the cost of 'renewables' was falling, and it was now the cheapest form of generation by far? Surely if they hadn't been lying all the time, we should be reducing subsidies, not increasing them 2.5x?

      1. Claverhouse Silver badge

        Re: Buy a pasty and visit the Cornish lithium mines!

        And how many more are going to die in the cobalt mines just to make another hipster happy ?

        Greens don't care about that. Out of site, out of mind. They pay premiums for artisanal bread and beer, and artisanal mining's the same, isn't it? Lovingly crafted by artisans working in a sustainable environment! Ok, so it really means effectively kids and slave labor crawling into holes that frequently collapse, but it's a small sacrifice to save the planet. Especially when it's other people making the sacrifice and leaving massive mines and pollution in places like DRC that are easily visible from space.

        In the good old days, when you could wash down non-artisanal Mother's Pride with non-artisanal Red Diamond, and you were content with that, no-one ever died in mines or worked in slave labour creating pollution. It's all those damn Greens' fault.

    3. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      FAIL

      Reality

      According to the US Department of Transportation, the average age of autos on US roads is about 12 years. That's the average. People don't get rid of perfectly good cars due to marketing nor rebates. That's why any claims about the fleet changing to EV's in half a dozen years or so are gibberish.

      https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-trucks-operation-united-states

      1. katrinab Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Reality

        In the UK, it is 10 years old, and rising. 2 years ago it was 8.4 years old.

        People who buy new cars tend to replace them after 3 years, and that is what people think about when they make statements like that. But of course, they don't send their 3 year old cars to the scrapyard, they sell them on the second hand market, and someone else who doesn't believe in buying brand new cars buys it.

        I bought my last car brand new. It is now a little over 10 years old, and I will keep it until the cost of getting it through its MOT becomes too high. At the last MOT, I replaced the tyres before taking it there, though it would have technically passed, and it went through with no problems. I also asked them to fix my air conditioning which isn't an MOT requirement but something I wanted done anyway.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Reality

          People who buy new cars tend to replace them after 3 years, and that is what people think about when they make statements like that. But of course, they don't send their 3 year old cars to the scrapyard, they sell them on the second hand market, and someone else who doesn't believe in buying brand new cars buys it.

          I think this is one of the challenges with EVs. A new ICE can last you >10yrs and has a pretty predictable depreciation and ownership cost. ICEs are a lot more reliable than they used to be and there's a healthy market for 2nd hand cars. So healthy that it could support a shift to people leasing new cars every 3yrs, and fleet managers selling off the off-lease cars.

          EVs are less certain. The purchase price is high, even with various government subsidies. They currently appear to depreciate massively, can be expensive to service, and insurance costs high because a lot of EVs are being written off instead of repaired. Some of the ownership costs are lower than ICE, some might end up higher as electricty prices continue to increase. Biggest issue seems to be the battery life, which depends on how it's been driven and charged. EV may start with a 300 mile range, but that starts falling off, and the fix is a new battery. So an 'engine swap' that'll cost £5k+ or a lot more, if the batteries are integral to the frame. As more EVs are driven, stats on battery degradation will get better, but people are reluctant to buy a 3yr old EV which has lost 1/3rd of it's range, and may not hold a charge as well.

          That feeds into sustainability, ie batteries can't easily be recyled and if they can, it's an expensive process. It's easy to scrap an ICE and melt that back into a new engine. Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs, but that's just taking an already worn/degraded battery and flogging it to a gullible customer. It kicks the disposal cost down the road though, if the battery pack doesn't catch fire.

          But it changes the car market. Wealthier drivers can enjoy their new car experience (smell, lemon detection etc) then people who are more sensible can buy a decent used car and know it should be good for a total of 8-10yrs. EVs don't appear to last that long. This may suit car makers because if EVs are disposable, they'll sell more cars.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            FAIL

            "Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs,

            but that's just taking an already worn/degraded battery and flogging it "

            That comment alone tells me you really know nothing about the subject you're talking about.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: "Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs,

              That comment alone tells me you really know nothing about the subject you're talking about.

              Et tu, brute. Drive-by ad homs are a good way to demonstrate ignorance masquerading as authority though.

              So we've been using rechargeable batteries for a long time. We know the performance degrades over time. There's a lot of different factors involved based on stuff like materials, basic chemistry, charge/discharge profile, temperatures etc etc. This is a well-known issue and why pretty much everything with a built-in charger includes some battery management system to manage charging, and to an extent discharging. Hazards like dendrite formation are also well-known and a reason for lithium battery fires.

              The rest is just common sense. If an EV's range has dropped from 300 to 200miles, or it takes longer to charge, or is quicker to discharge, something is wearing & degrading in the battery pack. Those cells no longer perform as they used to. A 100KWh pack may now be only 600KWh. We know rapid charging batteries tends to reduce the battery life etc. So it's entirely fair to say that recycling used batteries into 'new' battery packs is going to be worse than using new batteries with far more predictable performance and lifespan.

              The difficulty and cost of actually recyling used batteries is also well know, which is why these batteries aren't currently widely recycled. This may change, but currently it's easier, cheaper and safer to just make new ones.. Until those raw resources run out, or become ever more expensive to extract. Advances in battery design have reduced problems like dendrite formation, and may increase charge/discharge cycles, or even make them easier and cheaper to actually recycle. But that technology doesn't really exist yet, and probably won't before our EUocrats force mass adoption.

              1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                Unhappy

                Re: "Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs,

                Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Stupidity is a lack of intelligence.

                You appear to be using logic to make up for your ignorance, when you could just acquire some more knowledge instead. Here for example.

                which is why these batteries aren't currently widely recycled.

                Perhaps you should limit that idea to domestic use?

                On commercial vehicles there are more incentives to have more of a round trip life cycle.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: "Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs,

                  You appear to be using logic to make up for your ignorance, when you could just acquire some more knowledge instead. Here for example.

                  Says the person citing wiki as a reliable source.. But I was unaware that batteries now have infinite durability, the range decrease in EVs is, like snow, a thing of the past. I know we disagree on the wisdom of the EU, but didn't they just mandate replaceable batteries for mobile phones? Why is this, I wonder, if modern batteries never degrade? This must be great news for laptop users as those batteries won't need replacing either..

                  I am however aware of press releases promising to make battery recycling easier. One showed a process to decap a cell, yoink out the substrate, unwind it, run it through a solvent bath and then simply extract all the useful elements from that solvent. Then just do that 4,416 times for each cell in a single Tesla Model 3 battery pack. That exciting Green startup is seeking funding for what I'm sure is a cheap, safe and entirely environmentally friendly process. Anyway, I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading your source-

                  As of 2019, the recycling of Li-Ion batteries in most cases does not extract lithium since lithium-ion battery technology continuously changes and processes to recycle these batteries can thus be outdated in a couple of years. Extraction of lithium from old batteries is five times more expensive than mined lithium

                  So like I said, carry on strip mining and off-shore the environmental impact. Manufacturers can swerve EU recycling and sustainability diktats by kicking 4,416 lil cans (per vehicle) down the road into different shaped battery packs produced by a different SPV, which can be disposed of far faster than an actual battery when obligation, and most importantly cost becomes due. Or they just catch fire and then it's the insurer's problem. At least insurers and re-insurers are getting a better understanding of the risks given the number of vehicle and 'grid scale' battery fires.

                  On commercial vehicles there are more incentives to have more of a round trip life cycle

                  Indeed, which is why the Tesla Semi is selling so well. I'm sure there's a lot of demand to haul bags of crisps and other light loads, and have the trucks off the road for long periods while they recharge at a rate that doesn't knacker the batteries. At least with commercial vehicles, those refuelling stops could be combined with mandatory rest periods. Or just make those rest periods more frequent because the range with a heavy load is much shorter. Then there are all the other commercial vehicles. I think Canada bought some electric fire engines, but those couldn't get up some hills, and had to rely on auxillary diesels to actually pump water. Or there are other fun commercial applications, like electric tractors that farmers will have to buy. Wonder how much those will weigh?

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: "Sure, people will say the batteries can be recycled into other battery packs,

                "If an EV's range has dropped from 300 to 200miles, or it takes longer to charge, or is quicker to discharge, something is wearing & degrading in the battery pack. Those cells no longer perform as they used to. A 100KWh pack may now be only 600KWh. We know rapid charging batteries tends to reduce the battery life etc. So it's entirely fair to say that recycling used batteries into 'new' battery packs is going to be worse than using new batteries with far more predictable performance and lifespan."

                In a multi-cell pack, it can take a single duff cell to make the whole thing behave poorly. I've built a bunch of packs from 'dead' laptop batteries and they work fine. I test each cell and discard them if they don't hold a good charge, discharge quickly or have a high internal resistance. That's been the problem with many of the laptop batteries, they have one cell that fails and the rest are fine. One failing doesn't mean the others are on the verge of going bad so recycling/refurbishing/repurposing the cells after testing isn't a bad thing. I take all of the dead cells to a collection center for recycling. And yes, there are companies that tear down Li batteries and recover materials. The more valuable ones for that have Cobalt and Nickel as part of their chemistry and get sorted when the company knows that they do.

                Big EV batteries aren't super well profiled yet. It's been 11 years since the Tesla Model S was first sold which is one of the first commercially produced EV's if you ignore the original Roadster. The Nissan Leaf came out a couple of years earlier in 2010 with Li chemistry batteries in a 24kWh pack. The earliest commercial EV's are all going to be poor benchmarks since they were all first stabs at the design of the hardware/software. It does make sense that lots of DC fast charging will be harder on the batteries. Ramming in the electrons causes the packs to heat up and heat can be an enemy of chemical processes. I use Eneloop AA batteries in all of my small flashes and specifically bought slow charging stations. They get warm when charging, but the cells have lasted years. I've felt the heat from cells being charged on faster chargers and know I'd have swapped out all of my stock a couple of times if I did that. Charging an EV pack slower is a good idea and just planning to do that charging overnight. If you can't charge at home, don't buy an EV and instead put money away to buy a house and skip getting an expensive car for the time being.

                1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  Coat

                  "Ramming in the electrons...packs to heat up...heat can be an enemy of chemical processes. I "

                  True.

                  Which is why Reaction Engines have set up a specialist division to handle thermal management of EV battery systems.

                  Turns out the skills needed to design a system that can cool (but not liquify) air to near liquid nitrogen temeperatures are exactly the sam needed to manage fast temperature spikes brought on by fast charging batteries (of whatever description)

                  TBH I suspect there is acutally an optimum charging temperature at which the electrons go in quickest. let get up to that, then manage it to keep it on the swee spot.

                  Just an idea.

                  1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                    Re: "Ramming in the electrons...packs to heat up...heat can be an enemy of chemical processes. I "

                    "TBH I suspect there is acutally an optimum charging temperature at which the electrons go in quickest. let get up to that, then manage it to keep it on the swee spot."

                    There is a sweet spot and many EV's will condition the pack if you've punched in a charging station on the SatNav so you get the best charging speeds as soon as you plug in. It only applies to DC fast charging. When AC charging, it doesn't make much of a difference unless it's really really cold.

          2. katrinab Silver badge
            Megaphone

            Re: Reality

            Just one point: an average age of 10 years means they are going to the scrapyard after about 20 years.

            Or actually, in many cases, not going to the scrapyard, being exported to a developing nation where the people can't afford new cars.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Reality

              Or actually, in many cases, not going to the scrapyard, being exported to a developing nation where the people can't afford new cars.

              Cuba's a great example. Heavily sanctioned, so there's a direct incentive to make cars last as long as possible. So lots of classic cars. They may be a bit George Washington's Axe, but old cars still running. I kinda wonder if modern cars have big disadvantages in that respect. So if it's easy to keep a body in good shape if it's a body-on-frame design vs a monobody. Then looking under the hood of a new vs old car, there's a lot crammed into a new car making them harder and more expensive to maintain.

              Which in theory is where some old EVs had advantages. Industry knew about the slow charging, so had the idea that batteries could just be quickly swapped out. The California tax breaks Tesla relies on were based on that idea, but the biggest breaks for having swappable batteries were quickly ignored. Again an issue with battery condition and longevity. I think this has been made worse by embedding batteries deeper inside the cars making swapping, or just maintaining even harder and more expensive.

              Some of this may change as the industry matures and servicing/repairing EVs gets easier and cheaper. At the moment, that seems one of the main reasons why EVs depreciate so much and insurance is so high because EVs are written off rather than being repaired.

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Reality

                " Then looking under the hood of a new vs old car, there's a lot crammed into a new car making them harder and more expensive to maintain."

                A whole bunch of that is due to government mandates for emission controls, crash safety, etc. My mom had an ancient Dodge Dart with a slant-6 engine. I could climb into the engine compartment, have a seat and do regular maintenance with no problem. I expect it was a very inexpensive car for Dodge to produce as well. There just wasn't a lot of parts to assemble. Between legal requirements to add parts and focus groups that tell the manufacturers to tell us that we have all been 'clamoring' for some useless feature or 12, cars are getting to the point where a difficult repair isn't cost effective to work on so throw it away and get another one. This reminds me to check in on Samcrac and see how he's getting on troubleshooting and repairing exotic cars where it is worth his time to get them sorted and resold if you can do the work yourself. A rapidly fading skillset. I've been in need of a M12x1.5 die and none of the kiddies at any of the local hardware stores seem to know what a die is. Of course they don't have them in stock either which is another problem.

          3. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: This may suit car makers

            >”EVs don't appear to last that long. This may suit car makers because if EVs are disposable, they'll sell more cars.”

            It also suits governments because they can profit from the greenwash.

            Firstly, that’s increased tax revenues and reflects in the headline GDP figures - “oh look how our economy is growing, so much more than country xyz’s”.

            Secondly, the very poor secondhand value of EVs will help to keep Core inflation down.

            Thirdly, they can point to the reduction in ICE sales and tailpipe carbon emissions (and thus better air quality on our streets) to congratulate themselves on their green credentials, carefully overlooking the increase in factory energy consumption and power generation emissions (because the much talked about new nuclear is still being talked about).

        2. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Reality

          The manufacturers have been working hard on reducing that pesky longevity. Modern cars can now fail in expensive to fix, expensive to diagnose ways. So a £1000 car can easily become scrap by a module failure, or by requiring a dealer-only diagnosis. ODBII? Does the legal minimum, and you can't run the active diagnosis and test processes.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is why UK.gov should have been working much, much harder on trade deals with the EU.

    Unfortunately Johnson and his cronies had a different agenda. The referendum was to leave the EU, not necessarily the single market. Johnson et al took the decision to leave everything they could (remember they claimed that the referendum meant that voters wanted to leave the ECHR even though that wasn't mentioned on the referendum question at all). They then spent far too much time trying to prove that leaving the single market was the right thing to do and in order to do this they expended far too much effort try on negotiating poxy little trade deals with far flung countries for tiny little markets.

    We all know that right wing governments have to have an enemy, multiple enemies for preference. We also know that Johnson saw himself as the new Curchill. Put those things together and it seems pretty clear that Johnson thought he could maintain his popularity and this hold onto power by creating as much conflict as possible with the EU and of course by signing (but not reading) almost pointless trade deals with any country that would negotiate one.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Holmes

      Johnson saw BREXIT as a success because it got the Tories reelected, so BREXIT was "dumb" but seen as "done" - the major benefit for Europe of BREXIT is that it's pretty much eliminated every other country doing it now that they have seen what's happening.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Not the only benefit. The EU is making decisions much more quickly now. And there are loads of jobs in mainland Europe for us Irish techies.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          And there are now lots of direct flights from Ireland to Europe and America; so it’s relatively easy to bypass England and London.

    2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      We also know that Johnson saw himself as the new Curchill.

      What bemuses me is that he could have achieved it by pushing for a tiered EU, which to me is where it always needed to be heading, and now seems to be heading, albeit slower than snail's pace.

      He could have been the one hailed for having "got the EU sorted" but instead nailed his flag to the mast of a small minority of nationalistic and selfish bigots. His big mistake was to aim to win through division rather than through uniting.

      Ironically his failure was lack of ambition, failing to understand how great he could have been.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Happy

        "ironically his failure was lack of ambition, failing to understand how great he could have been."

        Oh but in Johnson's head he already is a Great Man.

        It's just all those little people who don't see his greatness and think of him as a vacous, lazy, superficial chancer who's driven by self interest and a massive sense of entitlement.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          To the "Oh but in Johnson's head he already is a Great Man" down voter.

          so someone here thinks my description of him as a "a vacous, lazy, superficial chancer who's driven by self interest and a massive sense of entitlement" is unfair.

          Alright, please, share with us what his admirable qualities are.

          And if you're going to start with "He got the covid vaccine rollout working" I'd reply

          "And created a system of crony access that stiffed HMG with £15Bn of unussable IE not just overpriced but actually not-fit-for-purpose PPE.

          IOW £15Bn of UK taxpayers money straight down the sh**ter.

          The floor is yours.

    3. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

      Agenda

      The EU also had an agenda. "Nobody leaves alive". There were many sensible compromises available, however all were rejected. The only solid "proposal" was the status quo, but slightly worse. The only "trade deal" offered by the EU was de facto membership.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Agenda

        >” The only "trade deal" offered by the EU was de facto membership.”

        Because the only trade deal the Brexiteers wanted was all the perks of membership…

  6. katrinab Silver badge
    Alert

    I don't think it is clear here, but, if you produce a car in the UK with a battery made in the EU, you have to pay the 10% import tax to send the completed car back to the EU, but if you put a Brittish battery in it, you don't.

    The same works in reverse.

    1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
      Joke

      And if you make a battery in the UK for a car that will be used in the UK, you are sure that the current goes the right way, otherwise the car will go into reverse...

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      if you produce a car in the UK with a battery made in the EU, you have to pay the 10% import tax to send the completed car back to the EU, but if you put a Brittish battery in it, you don't.

      No, that's not the case.

      Provided at least 55% of the car's value comes from components manufactured in either the UK or the EU, there's no tariff to be paid when exporting between UK and EU. If that 55% target isn't reached (for example if the battery and other components are largely sourced in Asia or the US) there will be a 10% tariff for an export UK->EU or vice-versa. Using an EU-sourced battery won't trigger the tariff, but it could increase manufacturing costs compared to using a locally-manufactured battery.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    TAKE BACK CONTROL !!!

    Sovereignty.

    Holding all the Cards.

    WINNING.

    BREXIT Mean Failure.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Coat

      "BREXIT Mean Failure."

      What Teresa May wanted to say all along?

  8. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

    Curious.

    Most remainers have been quite open about their views.

    Could it be....

    Some of those quitters wanting to raise a few upvotes without having to admit they might (just possibly) have not been entirely correct in voting Leave?

    Just a thought...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

      You might well be on to something.

      Who wouldn't regret not voting for the abject FAILURE that is Brexit? I mean even Nigel Farage has called it.

      I, for one, regret not being able to take any blame for this Brexit shitshow.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Happy

        I, for one, regret not being able to take any blame for this Brexit shitshow.

        Blame? Surely the word should be pride?

        After all the quitters won

        The 15 million who are left (the estimate that the 2 million that gave them the majority had died off by early 2019) should look themselves in the mirror and own their victory.

        Of course if you voted to quite because you thought the EU was the cause of all your problems, (which is basically what Dominic Cumins social media campagn message was) and it turned out they weren't then you shouldn't really expect things to get better for you, should you?

        One of my British chums said they voted leave because they'd "heard" (but can't recall where) that the UK was a net contributor to the EU, and they thought that was jolly unfair.

        When they were asked if they'd heard the phrase "The heaviest loads should be carried on the strongest shoulders" they got quite irrate.

        Funny really. They've been on benefits for decades. They don't seem to mind British taxpayers helping them out.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I, for one, regret not being able to take any blame for this Brexit shitshow.

          At least Dom Cum has provided politicians with another group/enemy for them and the terminally enraged to blame: "The Blob".

          Without the EU to blame all of England's the UK's misfortunes on it's now the fault of The Civil Service/Judges/Deep State.

          Watch how the New Conservatives™®© (30p Lee's new buddies) lead the charge against this new windmill.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

      Just tired of wrestling with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

        So did Dave Cameron.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Coat

      "Some of those quitters wanting to raise a few upvotes"

      Oh look I got a down vote.

      I usually don't mind upvoting an AC if I agree on their views.

      I won't be doing so on this subject.

      Other commentards. Do as you wish.

      But I won't.

      Call it "tactical voting"

    4. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

      @John Smith 19

      "Curious."

      I am interested to know why as well. I know after brexit a number of cowards popped up supporting remain to trot out the FUD that was disproven and repeating the usual lies but without a handle. I just assumed some remainers felt some shame, some zealots wanted to troll and some trolls saw their opportunity.

      "Most remainers have been quite open about their views."

      They were but then so were Euro supporters back when they supported joining the single currency (for mostly the same reasons) and were shown wrong. Now try finding them, I know of one.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lots of AC's agreeing the remain camp.

        Brexit has failed. Move on.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You've got to laugh, haven't you?

    We need more EU workers, admits leading Tory Brexiter

    George Eustice, the former environment secretary, is calling for a reciprocal visa scheme so that under-35s can work across the EU and Britain

    A few years from now they'll be openly talking about returning to the EU and how leaving was all Corbyn's fault.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Joke

      " openly talking about returning to the EU and how leaving was all Corbyn's fault."

      Genius plan.

      You might think the fact Corbyn was never Prime Minister of the UK would be an inconvenient fact that would argue against such a narrative.

      But if there's one thing ew've learned it's that quitters just ignore inconvenient facts. :-(

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: " openly talking about returning to the EU and how leaving was all Corbyn's fault."

        When did facts ever have any bearing on a religion like Brexit?

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          When did facts ever have any bearing on a religion like Brexit?

          True.

          From the lie on the bus and it's matching statement-which-was-not-a-promise (although I'm sure a lot of quitters read it as such) to the idea that the HoC would dare to ask for a debate on brexit, when (supposedly) this was all about the HoCs right to assert its sovereignty the pervassive odour of quitter bu***it has been like the wiff from a field freshly spread with cow dung.

    2. Old Tom

      Re: You've got to laugh, haven't you?

      It's hilarious how those who denied (the reality) that freedom of movement held down wages for British people in lesser-paid jobs ("Brexit lies") are now finally admitting that in fact wages were indeed being held down. Sadly, the suggested solution is 'get more people who are willing to do the job cheaply' rather than 'pay what we need to to get the staff'.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You've got to laugh, haven't you?

      There's already a blue EU visa. If there is anyone from the UK, who is looking to apply to work in an EU country, they should apply for that. No point waiting for pipe dreams like new types of visas, trade deals, reductions in red tape or any other of the rainbows and unicorns promised by Brexiters.

  10. Tron Silver badge

    I guess it will at least cut emissions.

    We will be transitioning from ICE vehicles to horses and carts. Not just the UK but the EU too. Using tariffs to try to recreate everything that China does in the EU just won't work. Particularly now that the global economy is being taken down by state intervention and deglobalisation. There isn't the cash in the system any more and with Brexit, there isn't the workforce either.

    Soon Prime will be offering you free 'next week' delivery, assuming we don't run out of horses and they lift the restrictions on letting migrant carters in.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I guess it will at least cut emissions.

      Yes, horse and carts are so eco friendly, natural forms of transport. Have been around for millennia with no pollution problems. The efficiency of energy input to work output is amazing.

      They have no exhaust emission at all, and will fit perfectly in a world where we get rid of cows and sheep because of the eco-costs of keeping them and the emissions they cause.

      Long live the horse and cart!

      Slightly seriously - Should we consider bringing back canals for non time-critical deliveries. One horse power can shift 20 tonnes, albeit at walking pace, recharges itself overnight, and ready for work the next morning. Tailpipe emissions are even beneficial for growing food.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: I guess it will at least cut emissions.

        Depends on what you mean by “pollution”… a quick look back to horse drawn London and crossing the road was a hazard and best undertaken in a pair of wellington boots…

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I guess it will at least cut emissions.

      Arguments for a horse and cart transport policy will provide many opportunities for the staw men, Hmm?

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Thumb Up

        Arguments for a horse and cart transport policy...many opportunities for the staw men, Hmm?

        Nice

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like