back to article Linux Mint cuts slice of 'Victoria' as 21.2 beta lands with dash of fresh Cinnamon

It's been a while coming, but the beta of Linux Mint 21.2, codenamed "Victoria", is here with a new version of the Cinnamon desktop among other updated features to enjoy. The news is spread across no fewer than nine pages, with separate announcements, lists of known bugs, and features lists for each desktop. Download links can …

  1. nematoad Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Thank you!

    "Mint's equivalent of an app store, the Software Centre, has been refined.

    I've always been attracted to Mint, especially the Mate version, and the spelling of "Software Centre" is just the icing on the cake.

    I am currently looking to rebuild my main box and I might give Mint a try.

    I think I'll stick to Mate as personally I don't like vertical taskbars.

    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

      Re: Thank you!

      I've used Mint as host and client with Virtual-box for nearly ten years (13,18,21) after trying Ubuntu with the unity interface horror show.

      If keeping Cinnamon 5.6 working on a 21.2 client has issues* I'll be joining you on Mate.

      *I'm not tinkering with it after every dot release update.

    2. Subsiding Gently

      Re: Thank you!

      Also not a fan of vertical task bars. I've been running Mint Cinnamon since last year and the task bar is along the bottom by default as far as this limited experience goes.

      1. Andy Non Silver badge

        Re: Thank you!

        I've used Mint (Cinnamon) for a decade or more and the task bar has always been along the bottom. If the new version won't allow that, then it may reluctantly be time to consider a different distribution.

        1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

          Re: Thank you!

          Indeed. Thirty years of muscle memory wants a horizontal taskbar at the bottom...

          1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

            Re: Thank you!

            [Author here]

            > Thirty years of muscle memory wants a horizontal taskbar at the bottom...

            No it doesn't, not unless you were using the Windows "Chicago" beta versions.

            The first taskbar in Windows was in Windows 95. That was 28 years ago. :-P

            Its inspirations were the NeXTstep Dock (vertical by default) and the RISC OS icon bar (horizontal only), but neither of these is a taskbar _per se_.

            It is worth adapting to change when something better is offered, you know.

            1. druck Silver badge

              Re: Thank you!

              As the RISC OS icon bar (circa 1987 if you count Arthur, otherwise 1989 for RISC OS 2) was clearly the inspiration for the Windows 95 taskbar, then 30+ years of muscle memory is appropriate.

            2. Jakester

              Re: Thank you!

              >It is worth adapting to change when something better is offered, you know.

              Just because there is a change to something, doesn't automatically make it better for me and others.

            3. 43300 Silver badge

              Re: Thank you!

              Why is a vertical taskbar 'better'? Many of us prefer it at the bottom of the screen.

        2. David 132 Silver badge

          Re: Thank you!

          Don’t worry. The way I read the review is that the author had a configuration with a vertical taskbar from an earlier version of Mint, and was commenting that this beta picked that up and preserved it.

          Indeed, if you click the “What’s New” link to the Mint announcement for Cinnamon, the screenshots there show a traditional bottom-located taskbar.

        3. navarac Silver badge

          Re: Thank you!

          Have no fear, you can leave it at the bottom.

      2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Re: Thank you!

        [Author here]

        > Also not a fan of vertical task bars.

        All 3 default to horizontal, as I have said in my previous comment.

        MATE does vertical ones so badly as to be unusable, Cinnamon does them poorly, Xfce does them well.

        You should try it. It's a much more efficient use of a widescreen display.

        1. LionelB Silver badge

          Re: Thank you!

          > You should try it. It's a much more efficient use of a widescreen display.

          Each to their own. I like to see the window title on the taskbar - these might be quite long, which doesn't play nicely with a vertical taskbar.

          FWIW, I use Fluxbox as a window manager, occasionally Xfce, and tend to have many workspaces, but not that many windows per workspace (I also make use of Fluxbox's nifty facility to tab windows together in groups to reduce clutter - surprised so few UIs implement that feature).

          1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

            Re: Thank you!

            [Author here]

            > I like to see the window title on the taskbar - these might be quite long, which doesn't play nicely with a vertical taskbar.

            This is not true, and it is a core point of my argument.

            (I am also vaguely offended by the implication that I did not consider that.)

            Taskbars are a Windows 95 innovation; there was nothing quite like it before. 1990s Windows has textual buttons in the taskbar. (Vista abandoned this, presumably in an effort to look more Mac-like.)

            The essence of a taskbar is that when positioned vertically, the contents remain in horizontal orientation.

            (Note: LXQt & MATE get this wrong.)

            Xfce calls this a "deskbar" but it is the default behaviour in Windows. I would argue that there is no need for a separate mode or name. Most of the Windows 9x clone desktops get it wrong to a greater or a lesser degree, because their developers did not know how to properly use the thing they were attempting to copy.

            When the taskbar is horizontal, window buttons take up a fixed width. If you make it thicker, then you get 2 rows, then 3, then 4, etc. (Note: KDE gets this wrong.) Only when the taskbar fills up do the buttons begin to shrink.

            When a taskbar (or Xfce deskbar) is vertical, though, what is now its *width* can be adjusted, and this instead changes the width of the buttons.

            (MATE, KDE & Cinnamon get this wrong, twice: [1] buttons get bigger, in all dimensions, not just wider; [2] status controls fail to be arranged in rows.)

            So, if one sets the vertical taskbar *width* to the same size as the width of a normal horizontal taskbar button, you get exactly the same amount of textual information in it.

            *However*, in vertical orientation on a relatively small screen, you can read the text labels on about 15-20 window buttons at once. On a horizontal taskbar with so many, now they shrink so much to fit that you can only see miniature icons.

            It is thus desirable for multiple reasons:

            1. You can have more open windows with readable buttons of the same size.

            2. Window buttons do not need to shrink until you have many more of them.

            3. You can afford a wider vertical taskbar than horizontal taskbar, because on a widescreen display, this does not consume scarce, hence valuable, vertical space, only cheap plentiful horizontal space. So you can see the same amount of a text file, or a document, or a web page, as on an old-fashioned 4:3 or even 16:10 display.

            4. You do get less taskbar length in total, true, but with status icons in rows, you do not lose much panel space to them. (MATE, Cinnamon, Lxqt, Dash to panel, etc. all fail to handle this correctly.)

            On a 4:3 display, the utility was marginal, but if you have 2 separate 4:3 monitors, as I routinely did from ~1996 onwards, or a widescreen display, as we all do now, it is very useful.

            The hardware has changed. It is a good thing to learn to be flexible and adapt to this, and it is a bad thing to be rigid and refuse to adapt because one is used to the old ways. Take advantage of new facilities, including newer screen geometry.

            1. LionelB Silver badge

              Re: Thank you!

              Perhaps re-read my post. Clearly I configure my desktop very differently to the way you do - it's a configuration that functions very, very nicely for the way I work. I am happy with it.

              I am a mathematician, statistician and research scientist, which means I multitask furiously. Typically, I will be simultaneously browsing, emailing, zooming with colleagues, coding in several languages, reading documents, preparing mathematical articles in LaTeX, plotting in Gnuplot, wrangling large-scale data across a network of machines (including HPC), and number-crunching in Matlab or a statistical application. My computing background goes back to Fortran on punched cards in the 70s, and I worked for many years in the telecoms industry, on various Unix and VMS systems. I am a Linux user since the late 90s and have run the gamut of distributions, desktops and window managers (which is why I enjoy your columns, BTW).

              My work setup is as follows: I generally have a single widescreen monitor, and organise my workspace into 6-8 virtual desktops. Any of those desktops probably has at most 6 windows (usually less) open at any given time (as I mentioned, I use also Fluxbox's window tabbing facility to group windows, which reduces the number of windows). I am continually flipping between workspaces, which are organised by task (see above). My Fluxbox taskbar ("toolbar") takes up... oooh... 28 pixels of vertical screen estate, and I have 100% horizontal screen estate (I frequently read/code side-by-side).

              The point is, I don't want a taskbar "button" for each open window on a given desktop, I want to be able to read a window title at a glance! I don't want those titles (which may be 50+ characters in length) split over several lines - that looks awful and is unreadable - but I don't mind if they're occasionally truncated at the end (as, e.g., Fluxbox will do on a horizontal toolbar). Fluxbox also displays a small app icon at the left of the title in the toolbar. I don't use a "desktop" as such - just a window manager (icons on a desktop are no use to me - nor are buttons in general, to be honest, I prefer text menus and also have the benefit of several decades' muscle memory for keyboard navigation shortcuts).

              This works for me - I'm an inveterate fiddler, so have tried everything going, including vertical taskbars - but I always come back to the above setup, which I've fine-tuned over twenty+ years. I can also (and do) replicate this setup on virtually any Linux distribution.

              As I say, to each their own.

              > (I am also vaguely offended by the implication that I did not consider that.)

              (I am also vaguely offended by the implication that I'd never tried vertical taskbars ;-))

        2. Ian 55

          Re: Thank you!

          I find it really interesting that I don't like a vertical task bar.

          Maybe the experience of Unity on a netbook has scarred me, or maybe it's having a screen that's 'only' 1920x1080 and liking that width for browser tab trees or having two documents side by side.

    3. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: Thank you!

      [Author here]

      > I think I'll stick to Mate as personally I don't like vertical taskbars.

      You misunderstand what I wrote.

      All 3 desktops come with horizontal taskbars *by default*. In all 3 you can choose to switch it to vertical.

      MATE does this very poorly and is unusable.

      Cinnamon does it quite badly but while it squanders space, it sort of works.

      Xfce does it well.

      They all do both; the question here is how well they do vertical ones. None enforce it.

    4. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Thank you!

      My VERY non tech other half has been using Mint Mate for over a year.

      Not one problem except having a hundred YouTube tabs open. Then fail.

      Other than that, I update it once in a while and no other issues.

      1. Ian 55

        Re: Thank you!

        100 YouTube tabs.. dunno.

        About 4,000 open tabs in Firefox, including about a dozen YouTube, it manages.

  2. robinsonb5

    Here's the thing about CSD: I don't mind it too much where it's appropriate. It's arguably appropriate for the calculator app. It's most definitely not appropriate for a text editor.

    If CSD windows could regain the missing functionality (like send-to-back on middle-click) to be more consistent with SSD windows then I'd be more inclined to tolerate them. (Note, however, that removing capabilities from proper windows is not an acceptable way of achieving consistency!)

    I'll definitely give this a spin, though - I'll be curious to see whether there's any change to the breakage the previous release (and the upstream Ubuntu) caused to Quartus (13 was totally broken, newer versions had major USB-related problems.)

    1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

      CSD is evil, and should die in a fire. It imposes the app developer's idea of a window on the desktop, when the best solution is for the desktop to make all windows the same.

      CSD came out of the hopeless aping of Windows8/MacOs by Gnome. These guys will not be told how unfunctional for non-expert users.

    2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      [Author here]

      > I don't mind it too much where it's appropriate. It's arguably appropriate for the calculator app. It's most definitely not appropriate for a text editor.

      That's a fair point, I concede.

      The problem is that then you end up dealing with a mixture. I prefer then simplicity of all my apps having the same UI.

  3. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    FAIL

    Hate UIs that don't have title bars

    Our software uses these to tell the user exactly where they are in the program at a glance - including which instance is running

  4. NoneSuch Silver badge
    Go

    Mint 21.1 / Cinnamon is my daily driver. An excellent build.

  5. eldel

    As a grumpy old git I fully support the disdain for UI 'improvements' which add nothing apart from giving the vapids something to chatter about.

    1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      Trollface

      As someone still open to new experiences, I enjoy seeing improvements in UI paradigms and also hearing the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the crusties when they encounter something new.

      1. demon driver

        There's a difference between actual "improvements" and "something new" just for change's sake, which might in the best case improve nothing but more often than not decrease usability. Much of what Unity and Gnome 3 did there was of the latter kind.

      2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        [Author here]

        > I enjoy seeing improvements in UI paradigms

        Me too. Taskbars were new in 1995, but I liked them.

        Acorn's icon bar was new to me in 1989, having only used Mac System 6 before. It was good. I liked it.

        CSD is not an improvement, IMHO.

        Then again, the MS Fluent UI, with ribbons, is not an improvement *for me*. I find it much less usable.

        Whereas I am one of the vanishingly few people who didn't mind Windows 8 and found it perfectly usable.

        Praise where it's due.

  6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "it looks very clean and remains quite intuitive"

    It looks ugly. Black icons following the trend of looking as if a cuneiform writer has attempted hieroglyphics on dark grey is not a good look.

    If you were using it exclusively you'd at least get to know the icon set. The trouble is that when something built on this framework, say pdf-arranger*, is installed in another environment it can't respond to whatever icon theme (nor colour theme) is in use and the responses of the system menu button are idiosyncratic. Consequently it's not really intuitive at all.

    * The only one so far I haven't been able to avoid.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge

      Yes, surprisingly "looking clean" isn't the reason I use a program!

      I want to be able to instantly spot the right icon out of a multitude, and this is so much easier when they are not all tiny gray thingamajigs on a black background (nemo, I'm looking at you).

      GUIs get more and more stylized and less and less usable, I've already seen programs where you sit there wondering how on earth you're supposed to interact with it. "Innovative" my a$$!

  7. navarac Silver badge

    LMDE version soon as well

    Personally I await the Debian Edition (LMDE6) when it arrives. Anything to avoid the Canonical offering of Ubuntu. If corporate shenanigans are anything to go by, they'll emulate RHEL before long.

    1. demon driver

      Re: LMDE version soon as well

      I'll agree to your reservations regarding Ubuntu, but Ubuntu as the base for Mint does still have advantages. Just one example, there's a lot of software that we can get from PPAs or other foreign package sources which cannot be included in Debian because their content is built against specific Ubuntu versions. Still it's good to know that LMDE could become standard Mint as soon as changes in Ubuntu would make it unsuitable for being the base for Mint...

      1. navarac Silver badge

        Re: LMDE version soon as well

        Good, valid points.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: LMDE version soon as well

      Just use straight Debian or, even better, Devuan.

  8. Someone Else Silver badge

    The author is an increasingly grumpy old git, whose shortsightedness is not improving with age. As such, we long for the complete banishment of trendy flat UIs. We would welcome a return to skeuomorphic, fake-3D buttons, scrollbars and other controls, but perhaps that is no longer feasible as upstream projects move to newer versions of Gtk and other toolkits that have removed support for such things.

    Amen, Liam, amen!

    Now take yer flat-ass icons 'n' buttons 'n' 50 shades of grey, and git offa my lawn!

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Flat UIs must die.

      Dumbest ever interface design.

  9. CAPS LOCK

    I'm a long term Mint user and I'm not worried...

    ... I've come to trust Clem's decision making. I tip my head wear to the Mint team. Also the community. The forum is an invaluable resource where no question is too stupid to get a measured and helpful response. I'd like to name-check Altair 4 for his/her tireless effort to sort out peoples difficulties getting Samba sorted out.

  10. DanceMan

    Vertical taskbars can grow on you

    Another grumpy old git here, using MX Linux with XFCE. Decades of horizontal taskbar on Windows made me averse to the vertical. Could have changed it but didn't and now prefer the vertical, at least as configured by MX, which I also prefer to Mint.

    1. YAGOG

      Re: Vertical taskbars can grow on you

      As yet another grumpy old git, I much prefer a vertical taskbar when using a wide screen - I find that I want to use the full screen height far more often than I need the full width. I have used Mint for for some years, both MATE and Cinnamon, but following some issues after upgrading from 20 to 21 I have switched to MX Linux, which I too now prefer.

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Vertical taskbars can grow on you

        For most desktop work I'd agree with you, but for audio work, width is more valuable than height.

        1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

          Re: Vertical taskbars can grow on you

          [Author here]

          > for audio work, width is more valuable than height.

          Interesting. I don't do audio work and never have, so I would not know.

          The only task I ever do which does favour lots of width is work on large spreadsheets.

          So I prefer UIs which let you choose (Xfce, Windows until 11, MS Office until 2007, LibreOffice) and dislike ones that force you to use their way (MATE, Win11, MS Office >= 2007).

          1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
            Linux

            Re: Vertical taskbars can grow on you

            This link should make it obvious :)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI5JkY7Ahxo

  11. werdsmith Silver badge

    Far More Importantly

    The photo on the article headline would not qualify as a Victoria sponge in my book.

  12. Norman Nescio

    UIX

    Yes, I know, User Interface Experience, but sometimes you have to get down with the kids.

    I'm in grumpy old git territory too, and while I can understand that some people might prefer hamburger menus for their own reasons, I think it is rather impolite to remove the possibility of using the older menu bar approach. It should be a configurable option so you can choose one, or the other as is your preference.

    It might be something to do with wanting to preserve a consistent experience across mobile phone UIs and a PC desktop. Mobile phones have historically been used in the wrong orientation and with too small a screen size for a menu bar based approach, so I can understand the utility of hamburger menus in that context. Giving users the choice to configure things according to their preferences seems like a more civilized way of doing things.

    People who use a 'modern' UI will likely get upset if forced to use an old one. A little reflection might let them understand why people used to an old UI (muscle memory) might get upset when forced to use a new one.

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: UIX

      [Author here]

      > It should be a configurable option so you can choose one, or the other as is your preference.

      This is an excellent point.

      For me, I would like a global option, or at least a globally-settable default which could then be amended in specific apps.

      It is now generally forgotten why the original GNOME-vs-KDE split happened.

      Aside from licensing issues around Qt, KDE is mostly C++ and GNOME, in response, is plain old C.

      (Which has turned out badly in the longer run, as anyone could have told them, and I suspect is why much of it is now implemented in Javascript, Vala, etc.)

      The theory is that an OOPS language should make global changes easy, but it has not turned out to be so.

      It is high time that the proponents of newer or allegedly better languages, such as Rust, Go, etc. demonstrated their claimed superiority by creating better GUI frameworks which make it easy for developers to make apps where you can, for example, globally choose between title/menu/toolbar UIs or CSD+hamburger-menus, and so on.

      I won't hold my breath.

      1. P.B. Lecavalier

        Re: UIX

        I completely agree for the "new languages" in UI, it would be really interesting to see some long overdue developments there. Why is is not happening?

        First, there are way fewer people involved in "desktop GUI": Remember late 90s-2010 period, when there was some free application with a GUI for just about everything you could think of? That was a golden age. Easy to find web or mobile UI developers, but people knowledgeable to make software with a GUI for productive use? It seems to me there's a lot fewer of these.

        Second, bindings: In the free software realm, either you do GUI development in their native language (C or C++), or you use some bindings. Often the way it's done in some target language will just mimic the idioms from the original, unless you do a lot of reinvention. Originality at this point is unlikely, as GUI frameworks grew in size, scope and complexity. And then many existing bindings have not so great documentation, meaning if you don't know how to do it in C/C++, then you are out of luck (so what's the point?).

        pytq/pyside is a good example of mature bindings for python/qt, but it comes with a tradeoff as you can't just compile. You must bundle the interpreter or have it as dependency.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: UIX

      "a consistent experience across mobile phone UIs and a PC desktop"

      All too often mobile phones have their UI elements positioned apparently at random. I've seen one where some control you'd expect to use only occasionally - IIRC the button to access configuration - was located bottom bar when other option, if they existed at all, were hard to find. If such little thought is given to the UI how much was given to other aspects - such as security?

      1. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: UIX

        "a consistent experience across mobile phone UIs and a PC desktop"

        ...was asked for by nobody of no one, ever...

  13. P.B. Lecavalier

    "remains quite intuitive"

    "slightly less discoverable for newcomers but it looks very clean and remains quite intuitive"

    Best description for GNOME3 I have ever seen! Except that the intuitive part is highly debatable.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "remains quite intuitive"

      where "highly debatable" is a polite way of saying "completely wrong".

  14. PRR Silver badge
    Facepalm

    shortsighted git

    > The author is an increasingly grumpy old git, whose shortsightedness is not improving with age.

    If you literally mean that near-sightedness seems to be worsening with age: you need reading glasses. The eye-lens won't pull into focus as much. It happens between 40 and 50, though some live in denial longer.

    When I was 10 they noticed I could not clearly see the blackboard (it was still black) in school. Near-sighed just enough to matter. Later required on my driver's license. But I read at 10-20 inches (25-50cm) better than with glasses.

    At 45 I was forced to admit I could not read the LED(!) calculator well, with or without glasses. At 55 I arrived at self-prescribed bi-focals: top at 10 feet to see things across the office, bottom at 2 feet to read monitors. (3m, 60cm). Both with my mild astigmatism. When I went out to the car to go home, I put on prescribed >20' "far-view" specs.

    If I read you right, cataracts are not imminent. They will be game-changing. Several other syndromes too. In any civilized place, the Main/High Street eye-guy will check for ALL these things, even the ones s/he has to refer to others.

    Eye-con: eye-test

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