back to article Canada plans brain drain of H-1B visa holders, with no-job, no-worries work permits

Canada has launched a bid to attract techies working in the USA on the notorious H-1B visa, by offering them the chance to move north. The offer, announced on Wednesday as part of the nation's first ever tech talent strategy, means H-1B visa holders can move to Canada without having a job waiting for them. The H-1B visa is …

  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Send me your poor huddled masses

    Of scientists, engineers, programmers

    Of course this was the country that let in all those entrepreneurs and over educated people from Hong Kong and all the Indian people from Africa that Britain went to such lengths to keep out.

  2. Groo The Wanderer

    For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

    If the US doesn't want them, why not bring them here? Granted the South Asians and South Americans on H-1B's won't find our temperatures as comfortable as Florida or Texas, but other than that, it's a good place to be.

    A lot less gun crime and far less blatant racism here, too.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well, one man's trash is another man's treasure...

      1. NoneSuch Silver badge
        Trollface

        " Anonymous Coward Well, one man's trash is another man's treasure..."

        Whatever the outcome, you are keeping Justin Bieber and William Shatner.

        1. mattaw2001

          Yes, but which is which? n/t

          n/t

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

      I'm not so sure that's true. While H1B visa holders are supposed to be highly skilled, the reality is that the H1B visa is widely used by big global outsourcers like Tata to bring meagerly qualified but cheap workers from 3rd world countries like India, usually with "degrees" from one of the many fake degree farms there, to the US. Where on paper they are paid the same as US workers and employed do highly skilled work, while in reality they are doing mundane work and get paid little, and after some time (usually shortly before they are eligible to apply for a Green Card) they are shipped back and replaced with another desperate poor soul.

      The fact that >75% of all H1B visas go to India, a country that's not exactly known for high education levels and with an education system that constantly rungs at the bottom of the global scale, while the rest of the world has to do with the remaining <25%, speaks volumes (just to be clear, this isn't against Indians as people, they are as smart as anyone else when exposed to a good education system, but there is no justification for the excessive prevalence of Indian workers in H1B).

      So what Canada will be importing aren't masses of highly skilled people, but a few highly skilled ones and many which aren't.

      1. Shuki26

        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

        That is highly misleading. My company has a ton of H1Bs and they are brought over because of lack of Americans to fill the spots and because they are good. Many are great enough to be kept even after getting a green card and longer. The size of India means that the US can take the top .1% of the brain pool and offer them the American dream instead of third world quality of life.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          >> That is highly misleading. My company has a ton of H1Bs and they are brought over because of lack of Americans to fill the spots and because they are good.

          Fair enough. So I assume you hire globally then, or does your company focus solely on India? I.e., are your jobs listed/spec'd so anyone from an eligible country can apply, and does your company consider suitably qualified applicants from other countries than India?

          >> Many are great enough to be kept even after getting a green card and longer. The size of India means that the US can take the top .1% of the brain pool and offer them the American dream instead of third world quality of life.

          That's all fine and well.

          Still, the question remains what justifies of >75% of H1B visas, a visa specifically targeted at highly skilled and highly educated workers, going to a single 3rd world country with a bottom-of-the-barrel education system. Because the ratio would suggest that Indian workers are more than three times better qualified than people from any of the other 193 remaining countries (including highly educated ones like South Korea), which really is a far stretch.

          Right now, the H1B ration is highly discriminatory against non-Indians. And the only viable explanation why this the case is because they are desperate and willing to work for minimal wages and under less than legal conditions.

          1. Richard 12 Silver badge
            Boffin

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            You need to ask one important question:

            Is that a big number?

            India is huge. Population around 1.4-1.5 billion people, which is roughly 18% of the population of the entire world.

            About 200 million of them speak English, so India represents about 15% of worldwide English speakers.

            Knock off the population of the US and Canada (as they don't need H1B visas), and India represents a pretty high percentage of the world's English speaking population that's eligble for an H1B visa.

            It's also third world, which means a lot more people who actually want to work elsewhere, either permanently or for a few years to send money home, in comparison to (eg) Germany.

            Frankly, it'd be weird if the vast majority of H1B visas didn't go to Indian nationals.

            1. rcxb Silver badge

              Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

              Knock off the population of the US and Canada (as they don't need H1B visas), and India represents a pretty high percentage of the world's English speaking population

              India has 24.0% of the English-speaking population outside the USA/Canada, to be precise.

              Calculated from the figures found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

              So about 3X as many H1-Bs are coming from India as should be, by chance.

              1. doublelayer Silver badge

                Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                They had more valid limiters on the situation than just quantity of English-speaking people. For example, which countries you can get people with required skills. The countries after India in the list are Pakistan, Nigeria, and the Philippines. While you'll get immigrants from all those countries, how does the education system differ between these countries in the level of quantity of people with abilities that make one eligible for an H1B?

                The country that comes after that is the UK. You can make a lot more money working in the UK than you can in India, so people who live there, even if they were only considering financial matters, have less of a reason to want to switch countries on average. They have other reasons to prefer staying in the UK; how many UK readers here don't like the US to some extent and make a point of it? Once again, you'll get some immigrants from there, but probably not as many.

                If H1B holders were chosen by pure chance with the only factor being ability to speak English, you would be correct. It is rather obvious that this is not how the visas are given, as there is both self-selection of people who will apply and limitations on who is eligible for the visas.

              2. vcragain

                Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                My experience from being in the programming world for many years (retired 4 yrs) is that Indian people tend to be pretty smart but no better humans than any other group - hence theft of your ideas can be something to watch out for & ingratiating themselves into favorable positions can be an issue too. 'Determined to get ahead' is how I would categorize those I have worked with/managed, which can be good or bad depending on how they further that ambition ! Suffice to say I developed an acute 'watch out' attitude towards those in my immediate orbit - especially after having brought them 'up to speed' on certain things, only to watch attempts to shove me out of their way - lovely snaky behavior ! Unfortunately upper managers often have no idea what is really going on in their departments !

          2. martinusher Silver badge

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            There's a lot of confusion about H1B visas because the original H1 was nothing like this -- there was no working for a subcontractor and the job position had to be labor certified, that is advertised and proven to be unfillable by a local. You were not allowed to offer significantly below the going rate for the job as well. In order to get an H1 you had to have an advanced degree and significant work experience (mortals got an H2).

            I know this because I came to the US on an H1.

            The arrival of H1B visas for IT workers coincided with major layoffs of locals. I wasn't affected because I was a bit specialized but it did hit people at the 'technician' type level, relatively recently qualified with limited practical experience or with non-degree vocational qualifications (still good but US businesses are a bit snobbish about paper qualifications). Where these workers place in skill terms is debatable -- I've worked with all sorts of Indians from "Seriously heavyweight IIT Graduate" to major "Meh, barely able to write name".

            (Note "IIT" -- "Indian Institute of Technology". World class schools that are incredibly difficult to get into and rather demanding should you succeed. IIT graduates tend not to work in large cube farms.)

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

              "You were not allowed to offer significantly below the going rate for the job as well"

              Good programmers used to make a very nice income, but it's been driven down over the last decade to the point where a good programmer is not likely to take the 'going rate'. This means that while a company can't find local talent to fill vacancies, the proper wording has to include "at the salaries being offered".

              Many US workers are pursing the "American Dream" and need to earn enough to buy a house and raise some kids in the US. Somebody coming from India with plans to return isn't looking to make that same investment. They are willing to live on the poor side and send money home where its buying power is much greater and after some years, move back with a better resume and enough money in the bank to get into a reasonably nice home at far less than a very modest home in the US. In the mean time, law makers are pushing to raise wages of the most menial jobs such as in fast food to where they are a "living wage" which is silly. There's also the problem of many young people being buried in student loan debt. I'm sure they feel great that the government is keen to hand out even more H1B visas while industry continues to lower salaries. At what's being offered, the graduates have no chance to accept those pay rates, live in a safe neighborhood AND pay back those loans. Too bad nobody taught them finance when they were in school. Lucky for me I was afraid to put myself on the hook with student loans at a point when I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do for the next 30 years. A good job too. I took my own sweet time getting my degrees and graduated with zero debt.

              1. Blank Reg

                Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                Not around here in the Toronto area, there just aren't enough good programmers at any price. I had to interview over 30 applicants to find one that was suitable. Granted what we do is extremely complex and challenging, but more than half of the applicants couldn't even come up with a bad solution to the problem I gave them, and it wasn't that hard.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                  And they probably want crazy starting money. Sadly sillycon valley has really poisoned the well as kids see these fresh faced grads landing 6 figure starting jobs at a very fancy big tech campus with nap pods, free food, bike rides and root top meetings.

                  1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                    Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                    "Sadly sillycon valley has really poisoned the well as kids see these fresh faced grads landing 6 figure starting jobs at a very fancy big tech campus with nap pods, free food, bike rides and root top meetings."

                    That's all fine and dandy until the series A funding runs out and you show up for work Monday morning to find the doors chained shut and a notice informing you that you are unemployed and there could be some delay in getting your final check. Oh yeah, your health insurance is history as well. Let's hope you have enough money to get by with rents in the $4,000/month region until you can find another job with all of your colleagues looking too. Even if the company is not folding up and forming an event horizon, the unit of the big company you work in might have just been deleted and you have been made redundant. You'll get that last paycheck and your insurance will last a bit longer, but not by a whole lot. Can you break the lease on your flat or will you be responsible for rent until the manager finds a new tenant. (Not that big of a problem in SV as they have had a housing shortage for years and there isn't much buildable land left)

                2. J.G.Harston Silver badge

                  Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                  You think the laws of supply and demand don't apply to you? In a shortage you take whatever you can get and deal with it, not stamp your foot and demand exactly what you want.

                  If there's no wholemeal bread, you put up with brown bread.

                  If there's no potatoes, you put up with pasta.

                  If there's no beef, you put up with chicken.

                  If the job applicants offer 90% of what you want, you take that 90% instead of stamping your foot and screaming while having 0%.

                  1. blackcat Silver badge

                    Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                    This is actually a major issue at the moment. Companies want unicorns and are not willing/able (probably due to cutting staffing to the bone or having lots of people leave) to train the less experienced applicants.

                    Get someone at slightly less than what you'd planned, train them, treat them well and keep them on and give them pay rises as they get better

                    OR

                    Bitch and moan that the only people who meet your often unachievable ticklist of skills want 1.5-2x what you're prepared to offer.

                    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                      Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                      "Bitch and moan that the only people who meet your often unachievable ticklist of skills want 1.5-2x what you're prepared to offer."

                      I've seen that a lot with new businesses that don't have a good business plan. I've seen several business plans where an outside firm did a set of trial budgets that were so top heavy that I have no understanding of how they approached the task. You can always ask for 50 hours a week plus mandatory overtime for salaried positions like SpaceX does, but I think that should weed out the people that can do math and figure they'll make more per hour just about anyplace else in the same industry.

                      There are lots of statistics available from government agencies about wages and job classifications. It's also not that hard to talk with a few people for the price of a couple of drinks about whether certain combinations of skills are likely to occur in nature. I have engineering degrees. Why the hell would I be proficient at something that wastes as much time as PowerPoint?

                  2. Blank Reg

                    Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                    half the applicants didn't even submit running code, and abour a quarter of them submitted nothing. Most barely showed any meaningful ability to write code beyond what you would expect from a first year comp sci student.

                    I had several that just gave up after 30 minutes, they had 3 hours.

                    There is no point hiring someone that doesn't even exhibit the potential to learn what I need them to do. I would hire someone that failed to get it fully working provided they showed that they at least understood the concepts and were on the right track. Sadly few managed even that

                    1. blackcat Silver badge

                      Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                      Did they have relevant degrees?

                      1. Blank Reg

                        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                        I had a PhD and 2 MSc in comp sci tapply that failed miserably. One even did their thesis on a topic very closely related to the problem I gave them, it didn't help. Every candidate claimed to have a degree in software, and most had work experience.

                        And it's not like the test is a surprise, I tell them ahead of time the topic that they should study up on.

                        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                          "I had a PhD and 2 MSc in comp sci tapply that failed miserably. "

                          If you have things needing to get done, you need experience, not degrees. It could be best to omit any degree requirements and just state in a posting that the applicant will need to pass the test and a bit about what the test is. I know plenty of people that have no degree and are better than I am in electronics with a degree. They just are. The same goes for mechanics, I have a BSME and it's not that hard to beat me at welding but there's still a rocket lander whose legs haven't fallen off after more than 200 take offs and landings that I welded on. If you needed a welder, there will be better choices. If you need somebody to design electronics stuff that can also weld, I'm your guy.

                          1. Blank Reg

                            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                            While it is certainly possible for someone without a degree to do well, the odds are low. The work we do requires excellent algorithm knowledge, the kind if stuff that is taught in university, not at some coding boot camp.

                    2. J.G.Harston Silver badge

                      Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                      Most barely showed any meaningful ability to write code beyond what you would expect from a first year comp sci student.

                      There's your problem. You're recruiting CompSci people to do SoftEng.

                3. MachDiamond Silver badge

                  Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                  "Not around here in the Toronto area, there just aren't enough good programmers at any price."

                  Why would anybody new go into programming and hope to find somebody like you willing to pay a decent salary? If the vast majority of the market isn't paying much, it's not a good career choice.

              2. Red Or Zed

                Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                Yes, how dare people in "menial jobs" want a living wage. They should be grateful for the scraps and huddle together in hovels, like good little serfs.

                There are no "menial" jobs, just ones you don't want to do because of snobbishness. Everyone working deserves a living wage, and those who can't shouldn't be forced to starve either.

                1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

                  Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                  No, there are jobs you *can't afford* to do.

                  Cost of staying alive = 500 zarbles per fortnight

                  Income from working = 250 zarbles per fortnight

                  Result = starvation

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

              >> (Note "IIT" -- "Indian Institute of Technology". World class schools that are incredibly difficult to get into and rather demanding should you succeed. IIT graduates tend not to work in large cube farms.)

              First of all, there is no single "Indian Institute of Technology", there actually are several separate institutions with this name in different regions of India.

              Neither of them is anywhere near "world class". The IIT in Ropar seems to fare better than the other IIT institutions, and yet only reaches a lowly ranking of 601-800 in this year's World University Rankings of THE:

              https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/indian-institute-technology-ropar

              Actually, all these IITs seem to perform rather poor even by Indian standards, as there are several Indian institutions which are able to achieve notable better rankings, although none of the anywhere near what could be considered a "world class school" (it seems the "Indian Institute of Science", which ranks at 251-300, is leading the pack).

              Just for comparison, China's top ranking institution cores 16th place (and they have several others which are in the top 100):

              https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/tsinghua-university

              This really shouldn't surprise anyone who works with Indian institutions. Because Indian schools are designed to produce degrees and fancy titles which allows students to apply for better paying jobs abroad, i.e. the emphasis is on the titles and certificates and not so much on educational standards. This goes to the extend of teaching students mimicking tasks instead of giving them a solid understanding of the basics.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          "because of lack of Americans to fill the spots and because they are good"

          That will be a lack of cheap Americans :)

          Admittedly the education system in the US is AWFUL and busy pumping out activists and union organisers.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            What's that HIBs here in the US? Yeh Yeh Canada's amazing... get going... bye-bye... c'ya.

            Go Canada!

          2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            I just discovered on Friday, one of my colleagues in the US is on a base\starting salary of $17 PH (Permy), when his daughter came in as intern to be trained (by him) her rate was $49, other colleagues are in the mid-band of $25. My rate is higher only because of the exchange rate, but is higher than the industry average wage for a permy & on a par with decent contractors rates.

            Hes been there 20 years, myself & others of a certain age are not being considered by the incoming MSP Kyndryl or their intervening agency (Doubtless providing indemnity against age discrimination claims). One of our colleagues while applying for a job discovered his own had been advertised for 2 months (We were told the news on June 5th).

            I have spent 18 months by the time I (presumably) get shown the door in November, my gained knowledge, my scripts to automate the regular tasks & good will with the local printer techs will not be handed over to what appears to be one of these H1B refugees or similar PFY.

        3. Blackjack Silver badge

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          "lack of Americans to fill the spots"

          That actually means "Locals won't work for what we are willing to pay".

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

        But they aren't proposing to just extend H1b to Canada but let in people who were made redundant and would have to leave the country.

        TATA/Infosys etc aren't really big players in Canada

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          >> But they aren't proposing to just extend H1b to Canada but let in people who were made redundant and would have to leave the country.

          So instead of looking at qualifications, Canada now wants to admit immigrants who entered the USA through a widely abused system where visa applicants pass through with minimal vetting, and who happen to be made redundant so their H1B visa is going to expire (unless they find another suitable US employer who's willing to pay for the visa adjustment).

          It seems being lucky in the H1B lottery and subsequently being fired from your job are now skills Canada desperately wants. Well, good luck with that!

          >> TATA/Infosys etc aren't really big players in Canada

          Probably because so far the Canadian immigration system has used points scoring for actual skills and not the visa/unemployment status from it's neighboring country, so the usual scheme used to bring lots of underpaid and lowly qualified workers to the US hasn't worked there.

          I suppose that's now going to change, as now Tata & Co can just open subsidiaries in Canada and start funneling cheap workers to Canada via the USA, by bringing them to the US first, then fire them and employ them again in Canada.

          Sounds like a win-win for Tata and India. Not sure it's such a great deal for Canadians, though.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

        Having actually recruited people in the US, this is utter nonsense. There is not a massive pool of poor suppressed American tech workers who are discriminated against in favor of cheap crap labor. It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to hire someone unqualified for a technical position just because they are a bit cheaper - which they are not in any case. It sounds like you have no actual experience with how the real world works.

        And as for education, there are many excellent Indian institutions.

        "just to be clear, this isn't against Indians as people"

        Sure it is.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          >> Having actually recruited people in the US

          So has any restaurant manager at Wendy's. Doesn't mean they know about H1B intrinsics (which I guess is the reason you mention this).

          You also seem to assume that you're the only one with hiring experience, although that's not relevant for the discussion anyways.

          >> this is utter nonsense. There is not a massive pool of poor suppressed American tech workers who are discriminated against in favor of cheap crap labor. It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to hire someone unqualified for a technical position just because they are a bit cheaper - which they are not in any case.

          You might want to educate yourself about the "real world" you've been talking, because just because you don't know about something doesn't make it not happening.

          Some examples of what you call "utter nonsense":

          https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/25/technology/disney-h1b-workers/index.html

          "Leo Perrero and Dena Moore say they were illegally replaced by foreign workers. Both were laid off from their IT jobs at Walt Disney World in Orlando in January 2015.

          They were told they had 90 days to train their replacements: Foreigners on H-1B visas, the most common visa for high-skilled foreign workers. If they didn't agree, they weren't eligible for bonuses or severance packages.

          Perrero and Moore weren't the only ones in this situation. Up to 300 workers also lost their jobs."

          https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html

          "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India. Some employees are training their H-1B visa holding replacements, and many have already lost their jobs.

          The employees are upset and say they can't understand how H-1B guest workers can be used to replace them.

          The IT organization's "transition effort" is expected to result in about 400 layoffs, with "another 100 or so employees leaving voluntarily," SCE said in a statement. The "transition," which began in August, will be completed by the end of March, the company said.

          "They are bringing in people with a couple of years' experience to replace us and then we have to train them," said one longtime IT worker. "It's demoralizing and in a way I kind of felt betrayed by the company."

          SCE, Southern California's largest utility, has confirmed the layoffs and the hiring of Infosys, based in Bangalore, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) in Mumbai. They are two of the largest users of H-1B visas."

          https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-explained

          "The [H1B] program is most often associated with the tech industry, where H-1B workers hold about 12%–13% of jobs, according to a Goldman Sachs report. (For comparison, they hold around 0.6%–0.7% of U.S. jobs overall.) Being able to recruit globally is supposed to help tech powerhouses like Facebook and Amazon find the talent they need.

          The companies that bring in the most H-1B workers, however, are not Silicon Valley tech firms but IT services firms, many based in India, that specialize in consulting or outsourcing. These companies, which include Tata Consultancy Services, Cognizant, Infosys, Wipro, Accenture, IBM India, and Deloitte, are contracted by other companies to do IT work. According to an analysis by Ronil Hira, a professor of public policy at Howard University, in 2014 nearly one-third of new H-1B visas went to 13 of these so-called “outsourcers.” (Tata received the most visas, with 5,650, while Amazon, the tech company with the highest number, got 877.)

          Compared with Silicon Valley firms, IT services companies tend to hire H-1B workers for lower-paying entry-level work. For example, Axios reported that 72.4% of Tata’s H-1B visa filings were for jobs paying between $60,000–$70,000 a year. Companies like Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft mostly filed for jobs that paid well above $100,000.

          This difference in pay gets at one of the main criticisms of the H-1B program: Rather than bringing the world’s “best and brightest” talent into the country to work alongside Americans, the system appears to be bringing in cheaper foreign labor that can hurt American workers’ employment and income prospects. It’s a compelling argument: Numerous American IT workers have been laid off (and then asked to train their H-1B replacements) after their employers chose to outsource IT department work instead of keeping it in-house. These decisions by companies have resulted in a few high-profile lawsuits, such as those brought by workers against Disney and Southern California Edison. And a number of studies have found that H-1B workers can have negative effects on American workers, in terms of displacement and lower earnings."

          https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/11visa-listy.html

          "H-1B visas have also been used to bring in temporary foreign workers from outsourcing companies, mainly from India, who study the jobs of Americans and then teach employees of those companies overseas how to do them. The jobs are then moved abroad.

          For four weeks this spring, workers from the global outsourcing company Tata Consultancy Services, or TCS, shadowed employees at the headquarters of Toys “R” Us in Wayne, N.J., taking screen shots of computers and detailed notes on how they did their jobs.

          By late June, the TCS workers had produced thorough manuals for the jobs of 67 people. They then returned to India to train TCS workers to take over and perform those jobs there. The Toys “R” Us employees in New Jersey, many of whom had been at the company for more than a decade, were laid off.

          This fall, the New York Life Insurance Company also laid off workers, and before they left, they were required to teach foreigners on H-1B visas how to do their work, so that the jobs could be moved out of the United States. One accountant said a worker from India made an exact digital “recording” during the day as he performed his job. At the close of business, the recording was sent to India, where workers practiced mimicking the accountant’s tasks."

          Also, it seems even Congress has waken up to the problem you believe doesn't exist:

          https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-immigration/legislation-introduced-in-us-senate-to-reform-and-stop-abuse-of-h-1b-visa-system/articleshow/89960231.cms

          >> It sounds like you have no actual experience with how the real world works.

          Looks can be perceiving. Maybe you should assume less and listen more so you're not missing what happens in the "real world".

          >> And as for education, there are many excellent Indian institutions.

          Such as? Anything that isn't below 200th place on the global ranking scale will do.

          1. Claverhouse

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            Incidentally, one reads of sacked people having to train their replacements; what incentive is there to do so ? They can't sack you again for refusing. Nor can they withhold any accrued wages and other benefits. It would be churlish to take it out on the incomers, but the bosses might do well to have a care if computer staff thinking long-term still have access to the machine.

            1. martinusher Silver badge

              Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

              What 'they' can do is offer you the choice of a) playing ball, getting severance, continuing health insurance for some months and the ability to claim unemployment or b) being fired immediately with no severance, no insurance, no cooperation with EDD for you unemployment insurance and so on.

              Both ways you're out of a job. One way has got a distinct "cut nose off despite face" ring to it (and don't forget that many of these workers will have families and stuff to support).

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

                "What 'they' can do is offer you the choice of a) playing ball, getting severance, continuing health insurance for some months and the ability to claim unemployment or b) being fired immediately with no severance, no insurance, no cooperation with EDD for you unemployment insurance and so on.

                Both ways you're out of a job. One way has got a distinct "cut nose off despite face" ring to it (and don't forget that many of these workers will have families and stuff to support)."

                I'd be pissed enough to just walk. I certainly wouldn't be signing any new agreements with the company that would have clauses about not teaching my replacement to do incorrect things. I've had that sort of thing happen before where I was offered a severance with conditions that I wound up getting anyway after a case opened with the county employment agency over unreimbursed holiday time and expenses. What they tried to get me to sign was just plain rude.

                First move would be to talk with an employment attorney and this sort of field is often covered through no-cost public services. An employer may be required to pay a severance, continue insurance for a period of time and cooperate with EDD or face severe fines. You could find that what you are being offered is pretty close to what they'd have to provide regardless. You would need to be a model employee until your last day so they can't make a case to fire you for cause, but even that would be difficult if they've already spoken to you about your upcoming redundancy.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

            "At the close of business, the recording was sent to India, where workers practiced mimicking the accountant’s tasks."

            That sound deadly. It's not the mechanics of how a job is done, but why it's done a particular way.

            I can tell you the settings on the camera I used to make a particular photo, but that doesn't give you any insight as to the criteria I used to get those settings.

            Without knowing the theory of double-entry bookkeeping, you could mess things up quite badly and not be able to spot your mistake. You also won't be able to spot when somebody else is fiddling the books.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          "It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to hire someone unqualified for a technical position just because they are a bit cheaper - which they are not in any case. It sounds like you have no actual experience with how the real world works."

          It's not just a 'bit cheaper', it's lots cheaper. Somebody on a visa is also somewhat locked in to that employer. They can quit, but that has lots of risk and can mean a trip home (and the cost of moving). They have to put up with lots more abuse since the unspoken threat is they could be dismissed and have to leave the country. It's not like a US citizen or resident that can go apply for a new job someplace else with no restrictions.

      4. thames

        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

        This is not an equivalent to the US H1B visa. This is a one time block of 10,000 regular open 3 year work permits being opportunistically targeted at a particular pool of people. They can work for almost any employer anywhere in Canada and their spouses and children can get work and study permits as well.

        Canada has loads of immigrants from India, so we are quite familiar with evaluating their qualifications.

      5. This post has been deleted by its author

      6. rajivdx

        Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

        India has 1/6th of the worlds population and produces 25% of the worlds engineers.

        So why are they taking up 75% of the H1-B intake of the US? Consider this, of the remaining 75% of the worlds engineers, most are happy where they are - UK, Germany, US, etc. Most of the engineers produced by India want to migrate to the US. And the remaining peoples of the world who want to migrate to the US, most do not possess the necessary qualifications to migrate under the H1-B scheme. Hence majority of the H1-B slots go to India. India realized a long time ago that education is key and parents started shoving their kids into Engineering colleges whether they liked it or not (hence the poorer quality of the stock). The rest of the world has realized this a bit late and are now playing catch up.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For once, Trudeau's government has made an actual smart move.

          >> India has 1/6th of the worlds population

          True

          >> and produces 25% of the worlds engineers

          I'd like to see the source for that, and especially what that source considers to be an "engineer" (a term which has been widely abused). How many of those "engineers" are actually working at engineering level (i.e. degree/skill level appropriate to solve complex engineering problems) and aren't just first level service techs with a fancy job title?

          Also, what percentage of those Indian engineers were born and/or educated abroad (i.e., not in a 3rd world education system like that of India)?

          >> So why are they taking up 75% of the H1-B intake of the US? Consider this, of the remaining 75% of the worlds engineers, most are happy where they are - UK, Germany, US, etc.

          What is the basis for this assumption, also considering that many high skill jobs (engineers) are notably better paid in the US than say in Germany or (shudder!) the UK (where engineering really pays a pity), and even after tax (which tends to be lower in the U.S., too) and health insurance (which is often a job perk anyways) they tend to do much better than in Europe?

          I'd like to see some hard data that shows that skilled workers from other countries than India have no interest working in the U.S., because that sounds pretty bogus.

          >> Most of the engineers produced by India want to migrate to the US.

          Of course they do, but that was never in question. Most people living in 3rd world countries would love to immigrate into a first world country. That's not surprising.

          >> And the remaining peoples of the world who want to migrate to the US, most do not possess the necessary qualifications to migrate under the H1-B scheme.

          That's quite a stretch to make when the data shows that that most Indians on H1B are brought in to the U.S. to do lower level jobs. Also, it's not that India's education system isn't just not one of the best, it's actually amongst the worst on a global scale (there are very few stable countries which do fare worse than India). China's has roughly the same population as India and a better education system. Yet in 2019 [1] China only gets some 11% compared to India's 74% of H1B visas.

          Are you really suggesting Indian engineers are 6x better than Chinese engineers, or that Chinese engineers don't want to work in the U.S.? If so then I'd also like to see some evidence for this.

          Of course there is a reason why Indians make the vast majority of H1B visa recipients, which is simply because Indian H1B workers are cheaper than everyone else. If H1B was truly skills-based (like similar visas are in other countries) then the distribution of H1B visa holder countries would look vastly different.

          [1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/h-1b-petitions-by-gender-country-of-birth-fy2019.pdf

          Hence majority of the H1-B slots go to India. India realized a long time ago that education is key and parents started shoving their kids into Engineering colleges whether they liked it or not (hence the poorer quality of the stock). The rest of the world has realized this a bit late and are now playing catch up.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "far less blatant racism here"

      Indeed, you just pretend that your PM isn't racist as heck. Although it is minor compared to his corruption.

      Isn't Canada suffering from a major housing issue as rents soar along with the slow collapse of the health system?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        >Isn't Canada suffering from a major housing issue as rents soar along with the slow collapse of the health system?

        Housing is expensive in the few cities anyone wants to live in - like the UK. And because everyone wants to own a house - like the UK. But there is also a lot of investment in building housing and transit in cities - unlike the UK.

        Canada seems to think that a steady flow of young people from abroad boosts the economy, rather than relying on an ageing low skilled work force and a falling birthrate

        The health system is slowly collapsing everywhere. Here it's mainly a shortage of GPs in expanding cities. Surprisingly the solution seems to be to attract staff from abroad rather than cut wages and appeal for older doctors to come out of retirement.

        The big problem is that Australia tempts UK doctors with better weather.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Keeping the cheap overseas people coming in on iffy visas keeps the wages low. This is why the US loves H1B. No job = go home, so they will work pretty much doing anything.

          And that is ignoring the illegals. They usually end up working in the fields or as cleaners.

          Same in the UK util we cut off the cheap eastern european workers who were happy to live 6 to a caravan and work 12 hours a day for a relative pittance.

          1. martinusher Silver badge

            H1B visas, like just about every other visa, is a 'non-immigrant visa'. The only way to become established here is to become a permanent resident -- that is, get a Green Card (which is actually a receipt for an immigrant visa). The chances of any of these Indian H1B workers being able to change their status to an immigrant visa in their lifetime is zero unless there's a radical change in the law.

            FWIW -- Canada has exactly the same kind of system. Their Green Card holders are called "Landed Immigrants".

        2. JoeCool Silver badge

          Nope

          On housing, Canada is suffering from allowing free markets to set the price.

          On healthcare it is the respsonsibility of Provincial Governments, and some of those are sabotaging the healthcare system in the thrall of corporate interests. But it is not a Canada-wide problem. Some provincial governments are progressive and working for the public good.

          1. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Nope

            "On housing, Canada is suffering from allowing free markets to set the price."

            Much of that is foreign investment from places like China where the US and Canada are sending all of their money. The solution is that all non-nationals have a requirement of living in the property and raw land is not available. Any investment in commercial residential properties has to be from a minority position with the majority/controlling interest held by an established Canadian firm that is owned and operated through a majority of Canadian persons so that the total ownership comprises more than 60% domestic investors. Free market is one thing, getting smashed by foreign manipulation is something else.

            The same issues are in the US as well. I don't have a problem with foreign nationals buying a home for their children to live in while they attend university rather than pay for dorms/apartments, but speculation becomes a problem. The vacant lot next to me is tied up in some scam where the liens against it are ~100 times its value. That's not a big problem, but if some foreign investors came into town and started buying up homes at 10x the current rate, my tax assessment would wind up going through the roof and it would cost me a mint to stay in my not so fancy home that I've paid off. Yes, I could make some money by selling out, but I don't want to move and I doubt that I'd bring in enough to buy something comparable straight across. I'm so relieved to not have a mortgage anymore that I don't want to be in a position where I have one again.

      2. Blank Reg

        You must be listening to right-wing nutjobs if you believe that (apart from the rent, that part is true)

    4. imanidiot Silver badge

      "far less blatant racism here"

      Unless you don't speak French in Quebec, New Brunswick or Manitoba.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Nonsense, you just have to speak loudly and slowly and they understand English.

        Unless you're French in which case the Quebecers won't understand you but you will also refuse to speak to them

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          There’s no Canada like French Canada!

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Don't upset them, they can cut off our Maple syrup supply

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              "Don't upset them, they can cut off our Maple syrup supply"

              That's ok. The price has long since cut me off.

    5. JoeCool Silver badge

      "For once" ?

      Don't be ridiculous.

    6. Blank Reg

      Parts of Texas were in the mid 40's this week, I don't think any sane person enjoys that sort of temperature

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        In either real or freedom units that sounds unpleasant

  3. DS999 Silver badge

    Russians

    Wouldn't be risk free to employ. Yes, there are many talented people who are not to blame for Putin's actions who have fled because they don't approve of his war, don't want to be drafted, don't want to stick around and watch their country get worse, don't want to go to prison for 15 years if they say the wrong thing to the wrong person, or just wanted to be sure to leave before Putin erected another Iron Curtain and Russians were no longer free to leave.

    The problem is that Putin is exactly the kind of guy who would take advantage of that, and have loyal Russians leave among the masses with the assignment to get jobs at western companies and eventually in western governments, where they can undermine western interests from within when Putin orders it.

    If I was hiring, or in charge of government policy, I wouldn't take the risk. Yeah that's a raw deal for all the innocent Russians caught up in it but if enough of them had spoken up 15 years when Putin was making himself dictator-for-life they (and Ukraine) wouldn't be in this mess now.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: if enough of them had spoken up

      Sorry but I have to disagree with that statement.

      It's easy to blame them for not speaking up but you acknowledge that they can disappear, yet you do not seem to take that into account.

      So what would you do if you knew that voicing your discontent in the morning could very well have you shipped to a camp in Siberia in the afternoon (or worse) ?

      Oh, and just a reminder : torture is still very much a thing in Russian prisons.

    2. LazLong

      Re: Russians

      The exact same thing could be said about the Chinese. When the US offered to let those Chinese studying in America stay after the Tiananmen Square massacre, my first thought was that this would be a HUMINT boon to the CCP, and I'm sure it was. Plenty of those studying here had aspirations to intelligence careers, and the rest all had family back home who would be hostage to the CCP's demands of those not willing to cooperate. All the same can be said about Russians abroad.

      1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: Russians

        Lets face it, when it comes down to the CCP's foreign intelligence operations the dependency of UK (and other) universities on fee-paying students from China is a much bigger problem, no need for long term hiding of agents and many go back home with valuable skills for China (OK, that really is the whole point of the study, but strategically you can see my point).

        But for most jobs it is low risk, and most folks from $OTHER_NATION just want a better life. Lets face it, the UK/USA/etc has had plenty of high-up spies that were born there, and we also have hubristic politicians who have done more to damage security than the CCP could ever hope an exiled worker could do.

    3. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Russians

      Sorry to burst your bubble but at the present time Putin has proven to be extremely popular. Inside Russia, of course. Outside, not so much.

      I've worked with a number of different types of Russians over the years. Its true that the 'authentic' ones -- the ones brought over here for us to train so our work could be sent over there -- were somewhat different from the others. This was 15 years ago but they reminded me of my early days in the US where, as a group, the British imports were grossly over qualified and grossly under paid, at least by American standards. I did spend some time with their leader extolling the benefits of the California entrepreneurial climate (in English parlance, "nobbling them", or at least trying) but to no avail. These days its a bit of a tossup whether working in the US is quite the deal it used to be. It might still work for people from places like India, though -- according to one recent colleague the everyday life in Mumbai would probably make the sets from "Brazil" seem sumptuous. The place is unmitigatedly horrible to live in, mile after mile of concrete apartments, few parks or other amenities, just an overdeveloped nightmare. (But its pretty cool if you're rich -- but then just about everywhere is.)

      1. MachDiamond Silver badge

        Re: Russians

        "Putin has proven to be extremely popular."

        There does then seem to be a large minority of men of military age that have chosen to be elsewhere.

    4. Blank Reg

      Re: Russians

      I know dozens of former colleagues from Russia, almost of them left the country long before Putins debacle in Ukraine.

    5. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Russians

      "If I was hiring, or in charge of government policy, I wouldn't take the risk. Yeah that's a raw deal for all the innocent Russians caught up in it but if enough of them had spoken up 15 years when Putin was making himself dictator-for-life they (and Ukraine) wouldn't be in this mess now."

      How goes Your speaking up where you are? While the USSR dissolved, that doesn't mean that certain controls have vanished as well. If you were trained from birth to keep certain opinions to yourself, that sort of training tends to stick with you.

      If I was looking for employees and somebody with a Russian background applied, I wouldn't have a problem with that if they were legal to hire. When the wall fell, there were a few smart US companies that were more than happy to pick up some Soviet scientists on the cheap. I met some from that era and one of them told me that if you were clever enough and could work the system, you could stay a student for a long time which was much better than being sent off to be a factory worker someplace you were assigned. Alex was very smart and earned (really earned) a couple of doctorates and did some very interesting post-doctorate work. His wife was a dentist and got her license in the US (pretty easy to do with her experience) and opened a practice catering to Russian speakers where she made bank correcting poor dental repairs with much better materials available only to the elite in the USSR. I haven't talked to Alex in ages, but he set himself up very well for retirement in the US and did some great work at the companies where he was employed. He had friends in other industries where they taught those companies how to do more with less. Something of a necessity where they came from.

  4. localzuk

    Short term visas

    Not sure I get the allure of a visa which has such instability - either the H1-B or the Canada "steal the H1-B people" visas. If you immigrate into a country, you usually want to settle down there, not live on tenterhooks over whether your visa will force you to leave if your company decides they don't need you now (especially with the at will nature of most jobs in the US), or will expire after 3 years.

    As far as I know, most people are looking for stability in their lives. Want the best to immigrate? Give them a proper visa that gives them indefinite leave to remain.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge

      Re: Short term visas

      > Not sure I get the allure of a visa which has such instability

      It's 1. the lesser evil, and 2. a foot in the door.

      When you come from a country where your job has little to no chance of allowing you to live decently, you have to make some concessions: The choices are instability or serving hamburgers. Also, they surely hope they eventually might get a more stable situation, especially after having lived somewhere for many, many years and having gone local.

    2. Buzzword

      Re: Short term visas

      Plenty of foreigners work in places like the UAE or Saudi Arabia, where they have no pathway to citizenship. (Actually the UAE does now offer a pathway, but numbers are low for now.)

    3. thames

      Re: Short term visas

      This is completely different from a US H1B visa. This is simply a one time block of 10,000 work permits which are being targeted at certain US H1B visa holders who recently lost their jobs in the US or are concerned about losing their jobs. It's not an equivalent to the US H1B visa.

      Under the terms of the Canadian program their spouses and children can also get temporary residency visas and work and study permits.

      This particular work permit is a three year open visa and you can change employers. Once you get a work permit in Canada and have regular employment, applying for permanent residency is fairly straightforward. Once you have permanent residency you can get citizenship in 3 years.

      People who are successful under this work permit will be encouraged to remain in Canada with their families as permanent residents or citizens. However, Canada is looking for people with education, skills, and qualifications, not just letting anybody in. Immigration is primarily intended to be used as a tool to support economic development policy. The Canadian immigration system has a record of conducting strategic "raids" on particular pools of labour on an opportunistic basis, so this one isn't a big surprise.

      1. Blank Reg

        Re: Short term visas

        Actually, we also need people young enough to have children or that bring children with them. Our birth rate is quite low so we need a flood of immigrants to postpone some major demographic issues in the not too distant future

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Short term visas

          Immigrants doing the jobs Canadians don't want to do - like having sex

          1. localzuk

            Re: Short term visas

            Clearly, Canadians are too polite for such things.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Short term visas

              Sorry

  5. sarusa Silver badge
    Happy

    Please do!

    I really, really, hope they take all Elmo's hostage Twitter employees, because that would be awesome.

    1. Blank Reg

      Re: Please do!

      I was thinking the same thing. I would bet such people are overrepresented in what is left of twitter staff

  6. Ishali

    How can you find a work in Canada or the US?

    1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Coat

      You look on a internet.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      "How can you find a work in Canada or the US?"

      Some sanctuary cities in the US are talking about hiring illegal immigrants for local government jobs. It's part of their D.I.E. program.

  7. ecofeco Silver badge

    Correction

    ...but the visa is believed to be widely abused...

    Proven. Search H1B abuse. Proven.

  8. Andrew Williams

    Canadians need not apply

    Which will mirror the experiences of Americans when faced with a cheaper and indentured workforce.

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