Take a 14-mile trip on an autonomous Scottish bus starting next month

Travelers looking to get from Fife to Edinburgh will soon have a new transport option: a fleet of five autonomous buses set to begin operating in Scotland on a 14-mile route this May. Running from Ferrytoll Park and Ride near the Forth Road Bridge to the Edinburgh Park Transport Interchange, the bus route is claimed to be the …

[Howard Sway]

buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

So we're supposed to be impressed by the wonders of this technology, whilst it needs a bus conductor onboard to collect tickets, a mere 20 years after the introduction of the Oyster card in London for ticketless travel eliminated this need.

[ChoHag]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

We were deprived of our bus conductors long before they developed this new-fanlged way of rinsing us.

[Paul Herber]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

AI: Yes, most people see the return of clippie to be a good thing.

[Tim99]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

Was it really that long ago? Dire Straits - Wild West End (1978): YouTube.

[John H Woods]

Re: "Was it really that long ago?"

Sorry but "Wild West End" was recorded nearer to the start of WWII than to today ... In a few months it'll be nearer to the election of a certain Mr A Hitler as German Chancellor. Or the repeal of Prohibition in the USA.

[Alistair]

Re: "Was it really that long ago?"

"Wild West End" was recorded nearer to the start of WWII than to today ...

Doesn't matter man, its Dire Straits.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

>AI: Yes, most people see the return of clippie to be a good thing.

When i was growing up in the Sheffield Soviet Republic, the fares were a nominal 2p = the only reason they had fares at all was the clippie's union

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

OK, but (a) it means someone is still onboard for emergencies, (b) someone is still employed (always a win IMHO) who they cannot sack or they'll lose the revenue and (c) they don't bank your money well before ever delivering what you paid for (which is the scam behind Oyster prepay and monthlies). Also, how are you going to gate a bus against non-paying passengers?

I suspect keeping someone on board is an attempt to stave off having to hose the bus after every journey after the usual undesirables have left, er, 'residuals', and to stop people getting on whose smell suggests they missed their annual bath, twice.

[anthonyhegedus]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

I use a debit card on london's transport system. No oyster card, and I get charged at the end of the day

[captain veg]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

Indeed.

So they can track your movements anyway.

-A.

[Steve Button]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

"someone is still employed (always a win IMHO)"

Always? Seriously? So, we should get rid of all the looms and have people knitting our clothes by hand? Get rid of all the computers and have armies of people adding up all the sums? Throw away the washing machine, and employ a cleaner to do your clothes by hand (or have someone stay at home and do it?)

Luddite.

I mean, being a bus driver must be a seriously boring / frustrating job. They are mostly grumpy as hell, and don't want to help you and they drive like maniacs (for some reason!?)

[zuckzuckgo]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

> drive like maniacs (for some reason!?)

Driving a bus is boring, driving a race car is exciting - driving a bus like a race car is a compromise to help stay awake. However, as a passenger I would prefer the boring ride.

[very angry man]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

yes to all," I always like the personal touch you get from hired thugs"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

I have actually missed my annual bath/shower twice and don’t smell. Just an experiment to see how long it takes before noticeable by close friends and family, although basic hygiene followed. It’s kind of gone on for longer than I thought it would but saved loads in terms of energy and water usage.

Posting anonymously, because nobody knows about my experiment.

[Steve Button]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

I'm guessing this is not actually a joke, but apologies if it is as I tend to take things literally. Typical nerd.

Although I do wash every day, so not a typical nerd in that sense.

Has it occurred to you that it has become "noticeable" for a very long time, but people are too embarrassed to say anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

You say that, but I have indeed read reports about this before with especially good results for reducing sebum production (the reason your hair gets greasy - apparently that abates after a while is left untouched).

However, the 'conversion' time is apparently quite long, and I for one couldn't afford the time or my absence. I have clients to visit, and they won't have much tolerance for what for a while appears to be simple raw neglect. I shudder to think what it would do to my shirt collars, for instance. I'm afraid I'll stick to my daily shower. Also better for my social life :).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

nobody knows about my experiment.

Oh we do. Observe the office plants wilting when you walk past..

:)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: buses will operate with a "Captain" in the passenger cabin "to take tickets"

I have actually missed my annual bath/shower twice and don’t smell

OK, but is your sense of smell working?

That reminds me of the joke that a man told his wife quietly that he'd just done s silent fart in a church, to which she responded that he oght to change the batteries in his hearing aid..

:)

[Dr. G. Freeman]

Why would anyone leave the Kingdom of Fife by bus Autonomous or not ?

Know a few fifers who could rattle off over half a dozen reasons on one hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've overlooked that this bus will also offer a new way to get out of Edinburgh. Which the rest of Scotland appreciates is a very good thing.

[Dr. G. Freeman]

True- didn't think of that. Keep forgetting you can travel North from Edinburgh if the trains are working, and the yellow buses are running- Haven't seen it since before the Plague.

[Nonymous Crowd Nerd]

Half a dozen reasons on one hand..

Using all six fingers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Half a dozen reasons on one hand..

Well, the original poster was talking about people from Fife.

[DenTheMan]

Where will it end ?

At the end of Not Very Well Road I quite imagine.

[The Oncoming Scorn]

Re: Where will it end ?

On The Buses? Where will it end?

Cemetery Gates obviously.

[Paul Herber]

Re: Where will it end ?

Buy a 1st class ticket - you'll get a Butler!

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Where will it end ?

Hopefully it will traverse the Forth Road Bridge without incident

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Where will it end ?

That should be the easiest part of the route since it's pretty much only buses, taxis, motorbikes, blue light vehicle and tractors these days, so probably quite empty most of the time.

[spold]

Re: Where will it end ?

Obviously at "The Doors" my friend... the end (There's danger on the edge of town

Ride the king's highway). Oh google it.

[Greg 38]

Re: Where will it end ?

Royston Vasey. It's the end of the line

[Anonymous Coward]

The good news for all small children ..

.. is that they're at least not running Tesla's FSD.

You must be pretty confident in your tech if you're prepared to let it loose in buses in a jurisdiction that won't allow you to buy your way out of trouble if it goes wrong so I'm both intrigued and interested.

[Snowy]

Re: The good news for all small children ..

That is what the scapegoat behind the wheel is for!

[R Soul]

Progress or PR bollocks?

Somebody hasn't thought this through. Existing buses can operate with just one employee - the driver. These shiny new driverless ones need two: a 'driver" who allegedly doesn't drive and someone who sells/checks tickets. Hmmm.

Or maybe that second dude is there to make sure the bus speed doesn't drop below 50 mph and set off a bomb. I saw a documentary about that a few years ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Progress or PR bollocks?

> speed doesn't drop below 50 mph and set off a bomb

Thanks to modern technology they don't need a bomb anymore. Hack the bus and turn it into the "bomb" - or at least a kind of slow but guided missile.

[xeroks]

interesting route to chose

That bus is going to be riding along some highly congested roads, particularly during peak times. Admittedly, it won't be going fast, so that's in it's favour.

[tfewster]

Re: interesting route to chose

Runcorn New Town was build around a dedicated Busway; where it crossed normal roads the buses got signal priority so didn't even slow down [and regularly hit amber gamblers].

Seems like an ideal setup for even the dumbest autonomous buses

https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/09/17/r-is-for-runcorn/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: interesting route to chose

It probably has quite strong screenwipers too..

:)

[Cybersaber]

The Scot's revenger for the voice-activated elevator

If you haven't seen it before, google the skit about the two Scotsmen trying to get a voice-activated elevator to work for them, then imagine this:

"Bus, this is my stop, let me off."

<bus> "Opening windows"

"No you daft machine, I want you to open the doors"

<bus> "Chan urrainn dhuinn na h-uinneagan obrachadh fhad ‘s a tha am bus a’ gluasad."

etc. etc.

[ecadre]

Re: The Scot's revenger for the voice-activated elevator

Or look up the real case of Birmingham Council, when they installed an automated phone system that couldn't understand the local accent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Birmingham City Council's outrageous outsourcing contract - see Private Eye and others

"Birmingham Council ... installed an automated phone system that couldn't understand the local accent."

Can you guess which IT supplier/outsourcer led that project? This article may heko:

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252467811/Birmingham-City-Council-ends-13-year-IT-contract-with-Capita

Crapita charged £4 to the for every call answered, according to this article:

https://stories.swns.com/news/birmingham-council-spends-11m-voice-recognition-phones-recognise-brummie-accent-27106/

I know I'm a bit late with thsi post, but Im not 13 years late. Yet..

[Really Anonymous Coward]

Only the Scottish Government could crow about an automation scheme that turns a one person job into two...

[Anonymous Coward]

And once the unions get involved they'll be stuck with 2 from now on even if the experiment fails and they go back to ordinary driver-operated buses.

[Boris the Cockroach]

Which would be a good thing.

Because right now the bus stops.... the driver gets the passengers to pay, once they've boarded the bus moves along to the next stop which all takes ages and usually blocks the single carrige way road the popular buses run along

With 2 man operation, the driver stops... picks up new passengers, drives off to the next stop while clippy gets the money.. much faster much less blocking of the traffic....... much less need for clean air zones etc etc etc

[Korev]

Or they do like the rest of the world seem to manage and have the passengers either buy a ticket from a machine at the bus stop or just use an app...

[ChoHag]

> buy a ticket from a machine at the bus stop

The machine which never gets kicked in, pissed on or just plain neglected? If it's even installed at all?

> just use an app...

It's never just, and fuck everything about all apps, the people who make them and the devices they run on.

[Sherrie Ludwig]

It's never just, and fuck everything about all apps, the people who make them and the devices they run on.

Thank you! Wish I could upvote you a dozen. If it needs an app, I ain't buying.

[The commentard formerly known as Mister_C]

round our way...

The driver looks at each boarding passenger and decides which ones look young enough to need to pay (usually just Mrs C & I). We both expect free passes to be abolished a year or so before we qualify.

[codejunky]

@Really Anonymous Coward

"Only the Scottish Government could crow about an automation scheme that turns a one person job into two..."

That was my first thought. They did the genius mess ordering ferries, but then the UK gov isnt brilliant either.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Wonder if they have a supervising driver named Sulu and a Captain by the name of Kirk, and when things go wrong, is the engineer Scott?

[zuckzuckgo]

> is the engineer Scott?

I would think the accent alone would cause passengers to revolt. Sounds like the no-win scenario.

[Zack Mollusc]

Worth watching.

I still think that there is too much data to process with sufficient accuracy in real time for self-driving vehicles, especially with the sensors currently used, so I will be very interested to see how well the bus copes.

[Snowy]

Re: Worth watching.

No role for Spock?

[very angry man]

Re: Worth watching.

this is why its being run in Scotland the rest of " insert country here" dose not care if the bus runs into a bunch of drunk locals lifting their kilts at passing busses

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey they could try this automation thingy on the underground - if it can drive a bus on a public road it ‘may’ be able to start and stop a train !

Currently we are paying tube drivers union chappies a ransom so they can sit and look out of a window whilst kindly allowing us to commute.

[Stork]

Copenhagen metro is driverless!

[captain veg]

Driverless

So is the DLR in London.

It started out staffless, but pretty soon they introduced "train captains". I was on one when the reason became apparent. It left a station, went a bit up the track, stopped, and reversed back to the station. Several times. The "captain" got out a big spanner, removed the panelling at the front and (i suppose) rebooted the train. We continued while he bolted the panel back in place.

-A.

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: Driverless

The "captain" got out a big spanner, removed the panelling at the front

There is a control panel just in front of the first seat on the units at each end of a formation to allow manual control - when the operator vacates the unit, they place the lockable lid back so it is out of harms way.

[captain veg]

Re: Driverless

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

-A.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Driverless

Other reasons for "train captains" include vandalism when there's no one "in authority" to deter it.

It is estimated "mothballing" the Ebbw Vale Cableway...will save Blaenau Gwent council £41,000...the lift had to be stopped 252 times between its opening in 2015 and 2017 and following the link from that article to the earlier report, "Blaenau Gwent council said some of the breakdowns were due to vandalism and incidents had reduced since the introduction of "on-site personnel""

Likewise, look at the mess of e-scooter hire, people leaving them all over the place in some case, and even when they must be "off hired" to certain places, are often left badly parked and can be trip hazards. And many have suggested the likelyhood of autonomous taxis being pigstys, especially on Friday and Saturday nights.

Many people are dirty and/or nasty bastards if they think they can't be seen or caught[*]. And that;s not even starting with the lowlife, low level criminals in hoodies and balaclavas avoiding even the best CCTV.

[*] many stories here from readers regarding the filthy staff toilets and kitchen areas in offices caused by people you'd not really think off of "vandals".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Likewise, look at the mess of e-scooter hire

I blame the overall business model ('uberisation'), when a startup is, by default, destined to make a loss, because of some funny-virtual-money changing hands on a much higher level. If a business cared for their stock of scooters, they could easily introduce a big enough 'fee' to make the 'drivers' care where they park their vehicle. As it is, neither business, nor users, have any incentive to care. Interesting, that the whining councils still can't be bothered to get a grip either.

... wait, what?! - I thought that scooters are banned in the UK?! ;)

[Ptol]

Re: Likewise, look at the mess of e-scooter hire

Scooters are perfectly legal in the UK. You just need to create a company, have the company buy a scooter, then rent that scooter to yourself at a rate per second, then pay VAT on the hire charge, and pay corporation tax on the revenue, and you can then pay the profits out as a dividend back to yourself, accounting for any residual income tax that may now be liable.

On the plus side, a 4000 watt scooter can easily out run a british bobbie.

[Lars]

miniature vehicles

One has to assume that when speaking about the competition one has to write about "miniature vehicles".

However this has to be about trials or it's a joke, I cannot remember sitting in bus or a tram since 1960s with two persons employed.

[Primus Secundus Tertius]

Smashing opportunity

This project sounds like a smashing opportunity. Ordinary motorists beware!

[Anonymous Coward]

Autonomous bus, eh? Someone grab two nuns, a baby, and the one true Scotsman and meet me down by the highway.

[We're all in it together]

Hope all algorithms are covered

I seem to recall several drivers as a teenager who wouldn’t wait for anyone to sit down before driving off. I’m assuming the algorithm will wait for passengers to sit, rather than flooring the bus causing elderly passengers and their shopping trolleys to faceplant the rear window.

[LateAgain]

Re: Hope all algorithms are covered

https://youtu.be/R5TTA4f7Q3E Bob Newhart bus driver training...

[Korev]

Re: Hope all algorithms are covered

I had something similar, for some reason the seats for elderly and disabled people aren't nearest the bus doors. I was attempting to move on the bus and the driver moved it suddenly meaning I ended up on a woman's lap who luckily was unharmed

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hope all algorithms are covered

I hope you bought her a drink or dinner first.

[bertkaye]

The McTavish Bus Company welcomes ye

Aye, the ride is free, boot you'll havfta pay to ride inside!

Also we serve a complementary breakfast of haggis and tatties during the trip. But the tea will cost ya.

[Anonymous Coward]

A driver AND a clippy

Just get rid of the Autonomous bit and we’re back in the 70’s.

Turn it up, Slade’s playing on the wireless!

[Intractable Potsherd]

I know the route...

... this bus service will take. The traffic varies between easy (across the Forth Road Bridge) to screamingly difficult (tourist/visitor traffic trying to get into the correct lane at short notice), combined with pedestrians crossing roads and the usual range of cyclists from tentative to clueless. When (not if) it all goes wrong, the liability chain is going to make Jarndyce v Jarndyce look like a trip to the small-claims court.

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be two staff members on board

to go on strike, when? :)

[Anonymous Coward]

The Captain will also have the duty of pushing the drinks trolley up and down the aisle.

Mine's a pint of Buckie!

[[e-mail]]

Wildly Dangerous and Irresponsible

Since no one has come close to getting autonomous vehicles to yet be at all safe, this is wildly irresponsible and dangerous. Autonomous vehicles have no ability to make new decisions but can only use the canned logic the programmers anticipated. And since reality is infinite scenarios instead, horrendous accidents and deaths are inevitable. Image recognition is about a million times slower on a computer than with humans, so computers do not know they are speeding past pedestrians or inanimate objects like light posts. So, they do not know when to slow down or not. They never will. They also will not know where lanes are, after a light dusting of snow. The idea anyone would run these known failures, is totally irresponsible. All computer programmers say they should not be run in public.

[GreenJimll]

Less scary than some human drivers

When I was a teenager the local bus company employed one driver who would occasionally sort of stand up whilst the bus was in motion and make an odd grunting/howling noise. Really disturbing the first time it happened but the local folk got used to it. I assume it was some sort of tic but not deemed to be a safety issue (or at least not enough of a safety issue in 1986 to care).

I still think I'd have preferred him to have been there supervising an AI though.... a few decades too early unfortunately.