Cisco Moscow trashed offices as it quit Putin's putrid pariah state Cisco destroyed caches of spare parts, and even wrecked its own offices, when international sanctions on Russia saw it quit the country in June 2022. According to Russian state media outlet TASS, Cisco's regulatory filings in Putin's pariah state revealed that the company depreciated stock and equipment worth ₽1,86 billion ($ …
Russia (and the USSR) have always been good at using shells to buy any goods they want. During WWII, the Lend/Lease program from the US was leveraged by them to do all sorts of espionage along with grabbing all the free stuff US politicians were handing out. This was at the time Joe Stalin was at the helm and he was a nastier piece of work than Putin could ever aspire to.
I applaud Cisco for the scorched office policy. Leaving behind loads of unsupported kit is also a gift that keeps on giving.
"The US used shell companies to buy titanium from the USSR as it could not source enough on its own to make the SR-71 Blackbird spy plane otherwise."
Yes indeed. Everybody plays the game. I don't say that sanctions should never be put in place, but they can only go so far and usually only will work on bulk items. If a country needed 100 rad-hard processors to put in ICBMs they have, if those processors are on the open market, it's no problem to get them. It would be harder to get 1,000/week as a standing order.
Dearest Register who I love reading,
Please do not descend into opinion pieces. Adding the odd bit here and there is great but this just comes across as a complete bashing of a country ruled by an oligarch and their chums intent on war. Now I get that but we don't need that many snide remarks to get the point. Once you move away from fact and move to opinion you then become no better than FOX or the BBC. You may disagree and I'm sure a lot of other people will disagree with this but come on lets keep it snarky but on point. I don't need you to try and influence my opinion. I see that everywhere else and I don't want to see it here.
Thanks.
Now you want opinions? Make up your mind already.
Cisco claiming a tax rebate from the Russian Government after smashing all their own stuff is amusing - an opinion, sure, one I share but each to their own. However the implication that it's more amusing because Putin is a first class c**t is a stone cold statement of fact.
Yes I did actually hence why I posted. This is a free comment section where people can post anonymously. I agree with you on Putin but I don't expect to see articles as biased as this. That was the point I was making. This is my opinion and I wanted others. When I read news I don't want over the top opinions I want fact first and foremost. Sure put some opinion into it but don't go overboard. There is a point where you start to sound like propaganda and for me I don't care which side it is propaganda is never good.
El Reg has always been snarky; it's the house style. If you don't like it then go elsewhere for your news. I don't mean that in a mean way; you will simply be happier with one less annoyance in your life.
Meanwhile, I am enjoying the irony that the post I am replying to sees you descending from fact into opinion on why posters are downvoting you. Just because someone doesn't take the time to express their opinion doesn't mean they don't have one.
I don't mind irony in the slightest. In fact I really enjoy this website however there is a line between irony and propaganda. Take it too far and I am well within my right to comment that I don't like it. Sure I can go elsewhere but why should I? I honestly couldn't give a flying f*** about Russia and Ukraine because it's a stupid proxy war we are all going to get dragged into eventually. It's all dodgy as hell and we are currently in the setting things up quite nicely to avoid nuclear weapons stage. We are due another war reset and banks popping is a good indicator.
I only just finished work and I've only just found the article.
The Register has always added a personal touch to their reports, it's often got the odd sarcastic comment.The Register is not an official news site, they're not trying to be the BBC or CNET and in the past they've been banned by Apple Corp from Apple events the second Apple found out who they were and becuase The Register's snarky pieces, so The Register has form when it comes to winding large orgs up with opinion pieces. I make no excuses for them, they're grown adults and The Register has to be careful as they're still a money making organisation but they're well known for being a thorn in orgs sides.
For the record I think you do have a fair point to make, it's a fine line between news and opinion pieces but The Register sways between the two positions and all I can say is that if you're not happy about it then I'm afraid they've not changed in the 15 years i've been on the site so i can't see them changing soon.
This is what happens when you allow propaganda to run rampant.
Now I don't know the truth in the following comments as I'm not in or from either Russia or Ukraine.
The reason Russia gave for going in was the treatment of Russian speaking Ukrainians in the east of the country. Whether there was a genocide in 2016 is up for debate however it wasn't unprovoked. Russia has also said Ukraine has a Nazi problem. There is evidence out there to support that. Russia said it was going to take the east of the country and it has hence why they haven't gone much further. A lot of what we have seen in the press has been told by the Ukrainians with no evidence as they banned journalists from the front line for months on end last year (that is a fact).
As I said and I am going to be crystal clear here I cannot verify the above so do not know if it is true or not. This is the problem with propaganda you only hear one side and make conclusions based on that. We hear that the Russians are running out of troops and weapons all the time. It's Russia who have been fighting wars like the US constantly for the past who knows how long and for some reason they are only now running out? Again propaganda. Lets not kid ourselves here if Russia wanted to flatten the whole of Ukraine it could. Look at what it did in Syria and Afghanistan. Nobody wins in Afghanistan unless you are prepared to blow up all the mountains because the moment you leave they just come out like they did when the US left. 3 days was it to take the entire country back under Taliban control with a massive bounty of new weapons as well. Oh and the only reason both the US and Russia were in Afghanistan was oil and to build a pipeline to the sea something neither side managed. War on terror my arse. The only reason the Taliban exist is because the US funded them when they were fighting the Russians however I would hazard a guess not many are aware of that due to our good friend Propaganda. So stop believing everything you read. Do your research. Look at both sides even if you disagree with them and whatever you do don't spout bullshit like "invading a neighbouring country completely unprovoked" when clearly that's not entirely true is it as they gave a reason. Again whether that reason is true I do not know.
Russia said it was going to take the east of the country and it has hence why they haven't gone much further.
...and of course they'll stop once they've finished annexing the Sudetenland. Just like last time.
Oh...hang on...Crimea...
When it does go further then you are correct but until that happens you are not.
They were always going to take Crimea. You would have to be dumb not to know that. A vital strategic Russian port and Russian naval base. Why do you think the west allowed it to happen? Do you think it had a choice? Look beyond the crap you read all the time and apply some common sense. Why do you think Russia have took the west and south of Ukraine? They now have a southern sea port fully covered. What did you think they were doing? This is a tech website. I would have thought there were intelligent people here who can envision military strategies. Do you not see how all the grain that used to go to the middle east is going into Poland is pissing off the Polish? Am I the only one that can see this? It will either turn into full out war or Ukraine will give up. That's sad but that's how the world works. We have bully countries such as the US, UK, Russia, China. Basically any nuclear power.
You don’t win a war by attempting to level anything.
Hearts and minds is where it’s at. Russia hasn’t a bloody clue. USA was clueless at political level in Vietnam, Iraq 2.0 and Afghanistan too.
Highly recommend reading Storm Front by Rowland White if you want to know what a hearts and minds war can do. Oman was transformed from ass backwards nowhere to one of the highest QOL countries in the space of a few decades.
On the subject of Ukraine unprovoked; no, the provocation was entirely generated by Russian agents to create the conditions for a Cassus belli they could sell at home. Nobody anywhere else believes it, from many reporting angles. Neither should you.
"just report the f**king news."
Even 60 minutes can't do that. I just watched an episode and while the questions seemed neutral enough, the tone in which they were asked was openly hostile. A transcript will make the interviewee look like a total prat and the audio puts the shoe securely on the other foot.
If the Reg was around during WW II would you say that name calling on Hitler or Nazis is bad and they should "just report the news"? If they have a story about a serial killer (assuming there's some sort of IT angle involved?) killing children can they criticize him, or are you going to whine about wanting "to keep his opinions to himself"?
That's an interesting question that requires a bit more thought.
Hitler took the whole of Europe and a lot of countries welcomed the Nazis with flowers and parades. How would you report that? "Invading forces welcomed with open arms" or "Evil dictator takes control of more countries". We all know the eventual outcome and that Hitler was in fact a nutjob leader intent on genocide. Think though there were people in the UK and the US sympathetic to Hitler. Lets say you report it as invasion then someone from Austria tells you nah mate we welcomed them as we wanted change. How does that look? It's best to report news and facts. Opinions are fine but keep them to a minimum.
Nearly every single BBC article now has an opinion at the bottom which always and I mean always sides with the current government or against people that strike for fair pay in the face of massive inflation telling us that sure everything has gone up by 10% but a 10% wage increase will raise inflation and not cover what they have lost. That would work if the inflation wasn't and hasn't already happened before they got a wage increase. Are people really this dumb? Sure, that's why we have opinion sections to tell you what your opinion should be.
"I note from the linked TASS report this is all about Cisco Systems a business engaged in equipment maintenance. "
How many reporters know what Cisco's main business is? Most will only remember seeing those painted blue ethernet switches at home and think that is all they do. There are situations where companies have services in a foreign country they don't offer elsewhere. It could be that Cisco did write contracts for equipment service and maintenance to bring in enough revenue in Russia to make having an office there worthwhile. You certainly don't want a bunch of techs sitting around a depot with nothing but time on their hands.
And in putin's putrid kigdom
1 million marching on a protest against the war would mean a lot of extra work for the FSB/ GULAG guards
Although I would suspect that a lot of them would be used to clear Ukrainian mine fields by being made to run across them.
Perhaps any RT viewers would care to read a BBC piece on an airborne battalion of the Russian army... took 54 casulties in the 9 yrs of the afgan war..... currently reckoned at 94 for 1 yrs campaigning in Ukraine.....
You and others I’ve seen on the interwebs have claimed 1M died in Iraq. You however don’t cite any references which reduces your credibility somewhat. I can claim Russia has lost 500,000 soldiers in their illegal invasion and war against Ukraine. That doesn’t make it credible for me quote that figure unless I cite my source for it and the source is reliable. I actually have no clue how many Russian soldiers have needlessly died in Ukraine and how many civilians/soldiers Ukraine has lost.
Do you want to tell us?
Yes, those women and their children just get evicted from their houses (and shot if they dare to pick up stones from the ground), and those houses get bulldozed and/or blown up. Or just blown up with said women and children still inside. It's all good.
An utterly absurd comment. First, the ultra-orthodox jews would very happily kick the shit out of anyone gay, just as they would out of anyone driving on a Saturday - muslim, jewish or tourist. I believe most Israelis dislike them intensely, and lord knows I do too after they pelted my car with rocks. Secondly, the head covering issue is something you'll see in Iran or Saudi, but both countries represent a small proportion of the muslim world. The most populous muslim country? Indonesia - no head coverings there. Your observation is as accurate as judging all of Christianity based on the behaviour of Billy Graham. The Palestinians I met didn't appear to give two fucks about head coverings - most simply want to get to work without being shot by a twitchy teenager with a Galil assault rifle.
Who says we always have to be neutral? Look around - we report the facts straight, sure, but we also chip in our own views. That's kinda the point of El Reg. Headlines, sub-heads, comment and opinion pieces, analysis, columns, features, that's where we try to stand out from the rest of the IT media.
You don't have to agree with us. We've never set ourselves up as the Associated Press or Press Association of the IT world. We have opinions, which we hope are informed and help further the interests of our readers, and we'll share them.
If we think company or government X does something bad, we'll say it's bad. And though The Reg was around in 2002 - would have been about four years old - it may or may not have had an opinion on the Iraq war back then. Doesn't bother me, I was just a regular reader at the time.
A wider point can be made here. Sometimes some people think we here at El Reg are lychee martini liberals or Daily Mail demagogues. I don't think we're fixed on a particular political side. We're just against stupidity. If your side does something stupid, we'll call it stupid - it's not a left or right, west or east, rich or poor thing.
C.
"I just feel sorry for their customers who handed over good money to buy the gear and are now left with unsupported equipment. Living in a country with a clown for a leader is no joke."
Issac Asimov illustrated very nicely in one of the Foundation books that one way to not go to war with a hostile adversary is to make their population see that it makes their lives much worse. One standoff was fought by all of the new fancy kitchen gadgets sold by the traders of Terminus failing after a period of time with no replacements or repairs. Then it was industrial tools.
I wouldn't be put off by not being able to get a Big Mac any more since I've gone off McD's, but I then think what would happen in the US if there was a trade embargo by China and my mobile went for a swim with the jobbies and stopped working. Where would I get a replacement with everybody in the same shoes needing a new one as well? They aren't made in the US and more critically, neither are most of the components that go into them. Not only would Apple, who have the cash, have a hard time shifting production, they'd have to start with opening up mines to access the minerals and metals in opposition to decades of anti-industry laws that have moved heavy industry outside the country. Build a fab, learn how to fabricate microscopic capacitors and inductors at scale and on and on.
A metric eff-ton of people here in the US have this same misunderstanding. “Oh if they cut off our supply of plastic junk we’ll be screwed!” Or, “if we cut off their supply of CPUs and jumbo jets they’ll be screwed!”
Both are true. Yeah, if they call $10T of T-bills, that would be bad. Also it would destroy their economy if we stopped paying interest on them. We are completely interdependent at this point. A trade embargo or a hot war are in neither side’s best interest.
"A metric eff-ton of people here in the US have this same misunderstanding."
I chose mobiles as my example since they are so entrenched in people's lives and are loaded with components that can't be made in the US. That plastic tat that loads the shelves at the dollar store I can do without since I so already and the other side could put off buying a few new jumbo jets. A total embargo is one thing and a targeted embargo is another.
China used to be a big supplier of Silicon ingots that companies would use to fabricate solar cells. They moved up to making the individual cells in China and limited the sale of pure Silicon. Time passes and they start making complete panels and limit the export of both individual cells and the Silicon. That's left a few companies in the dust that built their operation on buying materials cheap from producers in China. The same thing could happen with any number of raw materials and sub-components that will cause the maximum amount of pain for the least visible maneuvers. The average US citizen won't be very concerned if some material is slowly or suddenly unavailable. They'll just think "oh, we'll just mine it here" or put up a factory to make that thing not understanding that neither of those things will happen. Companies won't get any financing to open a rare-Earth mine or a fab, or a factory that winds tiny inductors. The global price of those components/materials will make any US company's business plan look unworkable.
This sort of thing is not something that I'd applaud, regardless of my opinion of Russia Ukraine or what have you. It just hands the market** over to Huawei. (Now, as we all know, companies like Huawei can't possibly produce product as sophisticated and useful as Cisco's, they can't get the parts etc. etc. etc.)(Meanwhile, back in real life....)
(**Not just Russia. If I were in some random country responsible for buying Telcom kit I'd be interested in long term product availability and reliability.)
Now, I labour on the technical side for an SMB. We don't shift stuff in high volume so we purchase 'Just in time'.
I have to say, long term availability effed off years ago, even more so after COVID and the turmoil in the semiconductor industry. Reliability is going the same way.
>I'm sure Huawei can produce product that is good enough for the job that needs doing.
They've got more engineering resources so -- surprise! -- they produce very good kit. Their problem is finding ways to get into markets dominated by established global corporations like Cisco. The US government's doing a great job of helping them by artificially distorting markets."But its only a small market" people will say, but then small markets add up -- remember,. Huawei got so big by servicing small markets that big companies couldn't be bothered with as they weren't profitable enough.
The thing is that since Russia is under embargo, no embargoed goods are to go in.
Once that happened, none of the trashed stuff could be allowed to fall into Russian hands, any more than the parts would be allowed to be traded. Letting it happen could result in charges for the people involved.
So if you were working in Russia and wanted to move back to the States as part of the closure, yeah the parts had to be trashed. Really they should likely have been incinerated to prevent reverse engineering, but maybe that was too much work.
I guess the tax deductions for the equipment that had to be destroyed also makes sense. I doubt the Russians will allow the deductions, but they might as well try.
Once that happened, none of the trashed stuff could be allowed to fall into Russian hands, any more than the parts would be allowed to be traded. Letting it happen could result in charges for the people involved.
Embargo means not allowing imports into Russia. If it's already there, it's not breaking embargos or import/export bans. Unless I guess it's sitting in some kind of bonded warehouse or freeport. But Cisco wouldn't be allowed to sell any more tin post-sanction. It doesn't really matter if it falls into Russia's hands, other than in a 'Yey, free stuff' fashion because Cisco's been flogging pretty much it's entire product line inside Russia for well over a decade. Anyone who's built global networks knows full well the joys of buying tin (ok, renting software licences) from 'global' providers and then trying to add it into Cisco's licence manglement system.
Really they should likely have been incinerated to prevent reverse engineering, but maybe that was too much work.
Cisco doesn't burn anything other than cash or goodwill. Anything any nation wanted to reverse engineer will have been reverse engineered already. The stuff is everywhere, including cloned and counterfeited versions. You can even buy it in places like Iran, and probably N.Korea because people have always found ways to get around sanctions.
I guess the tax deductions for the equipment that had to be destroyed also makes sense. I doubt the Russians will allow the deductions, but they might as well try.
Depends where they try to claim them I guess. Given it deliberately destroyed stock, I doubt it'd be deductable in pretty much any tax jurisdiction. They may just write down the stock value to zero and try and claim the loss in Luxemburg, Ireland or the US. Can't remember where their Russia business was parented, but it's the usual web of SPVs and inter-company trades to minimise tax. As businesses were given warnings about sanctions, Cisco could probably have removed the tin, so the loss may get disallowed. Or maybe Russia will fine them for not complying with e-waste rules. Which gets a bit pointless because Cisco, being US and Russia being.. on the naughty step can't trade or transact anyway.
Which leaves the curious bit, ie how Cisco would still have employees in Moscow. Maybe they've got some exemptions to allow a clean-up crew to remain and be paid, otherwise AFAIK they'd be in breach of the sanctions. That stuff generally gets very complicated, and very risky, ie could the remnants have contracts with Russian accountants or lawyers, or transact with Russian banks? Other countries have been pretty much ignoring sanctions and are still doing business in and with Russia, so presumably there are legal-ish workarounds.
Which leaves the curious bit, ie how Cisco would still have employees in Moscow. Maybe they've got some exemptions to allow a clean-up crew to remain and be paid, otherwise AFAIK they'd be in breach of the sanctions. That stuff generally gets very complicated, and very risky, ie could the remnants have contracts with Russian accountants or lawyers, or transact with Russian banks? Other countries have been pretty much ignoring sanctions and are still doing business in and with Russia, so presumably there are legal-ish workarounds.
Locals on the local pay-roll and paid from the local bank account don't violate sanctions.
Locals on the local pay-roll and paid from the local bank account don't violate sanctions.
I wondered if that was the trick. Presumably that only works for as long as there's money in that account. Then it'd be the challenge of fnding a sanction-avoiding way to trasnsfer money. Guessing that could happen fairly quickly if Cisco's Moscow office has taxes due, breaks leases, employment contracts etc etc.
"Given it deliberately destroyed stock, I doubt it'd be deductable in pretty much any tax jurisdiction. "
You'd be surprised. I worked at a company that was the official repair center for a certain brand of audio gear many years ago. We also warehoused items returned from retailers and stock used for demos/trade shows, etc. I was shocked when there would be a call to destroy some of that stock since I would have been happy to have it myself. It was older product and by destroying it and keeping good records, they could write it off at full MSRP. If they sold it, it would cost them more money since they'd need to sell it at a discount and that might not be too much above the cost to make it. The government came up with the rules, so while wasteful, it was more profitable to shred the stuff. Shrinkage, damage, waste and obsolete product is an accounting category.
The government came up with the rules, so while wasteful, it was more profitable to shred the stuff. Shrinkage, damage, waste and obsolete product is an accounting category.
Not at Amazon I guess. Returns and refurbs go right back out again. But ISTR there were also businesses like Richer Sounds and overstockers who would take a lot of that kit and sell it. I pciked up some very nice speakers once that were ex-demo and deeply discounted.
Perhaps they would of been better off staying and peddling suitably backdoored kit at knockdown prices to all the entities in Russia they could. We accuse of Huawei of doing the same, so why not follow suit.
Or maybe all their kit is already backdoored so they felt they didn't need to.
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