back to article UK Prime Minister wants £800M to spend on big British iron

This week British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak unveiled his Science and Technology Framework, and one of the first projects could be a massive supercomputer to rival the US's top ranked Frontier system — assuming he can find the money to pay for it. Citing multiple sources familiar with the matter, Bloomberg reports that the …

  1. mpi Silver badge

    Is that the same government that wants to spend a whooping 1.6 million on becoing a "space superpower"?

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/08/uk_space_research_funding/

    1. Spazturtle Silver badge

      So I guess you don't want the government to fund small scales projects and that they should only fund large projects?

      NASA hands out similar small scale funding to smaller research projects, are you going to criticise them too?

      "The agency provides up to $125,000 for companies to establish the merit and feasibility of their innovations."

      https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-provides-45m-boost-to-us-small-businesses

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        That £1.6m is supposed to be divided by 8. What can you research for £200k?

        You won't even get one consultant for this money and what about office, proper workstation to perform computations and other tools?

        I mean if you can get £200k to jsut say it's not feasible, then fair play.

        1. Spazturtle Silver badge

          And the $45m in funding that NASA gave out is split across 365 projects with a cap of $125k, so NASA seem to think that small scale funding is worth it, and they have been running funding schemes like this for over a decade.

          So why do you think this sort of program won't work in the UK?

          Also have you considered that the organisations that applied for funding (mainly universities) already have research staff, offices and workstations?

        2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          £200k - I was never paid that when I was a consultant

      2. Pascal Monett Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        If you think that 1.6 million is enough to bring any country to the status of superpower in anything, I have a bridge to sell you . . .

        1. Graham Cobb

          Weird - why won't ElReg let me upvote this? No problems with any other post (even others by the same user).

      3. Lars
        Happy

        @Spazturtle

        It's the imbalance between big words and small money that can be annoying I think. More about the big words actually than the money.

      4. Old-dog

        Becoming a space superpower Is not a small scale poject.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Downvote for using a mental disability slur as your handle. Cerebral palsy isn’t funny.

        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

          If he's American, it's likely he doesn't know the origins. The American definition of spaz is to "freak out", and most Americans don't know any different.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Iron Sky?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        From onlyfans: Jeremy Johnson Irons, A.K.A. "Big British Iron", Male, "Actor", Loves horses.

        1. Phones Sheridan Silver badge

          From LinkedIn: Jeremy Johnson, Steel Erector.

          I kid ye not!

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Whilst it's nice to (finally) see some sort of ambition at HMG, and not just a rehash of old ideas, the cynic in me thinks £800m will be spent building a £1m machine, which won't perform as well as anyone elses £1m machine.

    We brits might well be *capable* of doing this, but once HMG gets involved, money will be syphoned off to cronies and donors, and the rest will be spent "skilling up" and obtaining hardware. When this project is complete, it'll be brandished a failure and there won't be an attempt at a replacement or upgrade, so whatever learnings we might have made will ultimately be lost, along with any of the long term benefits.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It'll be like the Crick Institute won't it.

      Cost of Central London building: £650M

      Annual running costs: £130M

      Amount left over to actually buy a supercomputer: £20M

      What do you mean it doesn't have to be in Central London?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like the Crick Institute won't it.

        £19M spent on local community involvement initiatives

        £999,980 on branding consultants

        £20 on speccy from car boot sale

        1. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: It'll be like the Crick Institute won't it.

          By "Local community involvement initiatives" do you mean a knees up at Checquers with the Old Boys Club?

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like the Crick Institute won't it.

        What do you mean it doesn't have to be in Central London?

        The Met Office one which is supposed to cost over a billion quid is to be in Exeter. Because cider.

      3. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like the Crick Institute won't it.

        Not sufficiently over budget. I suspect it will be sold as being great value for money, but will overrun and cost over £5bn (https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/04/national_cyber_force_hq_samlesbury/?td=keepreading )

        A computer this important and expensive will need to be protected as if it were a military/national security asset, so will need to be housed a dozen or floors underground. Etc.

        However, in typical government fudge, it will be operated by Microsoft (uk) as part of G-cloud.

  3. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    What could go wrong?

    We no longer design CPUs. We used to have a cheap talented labour, but since taxes gone through the roof along with costs of living and inflation, the pay is nowhere near adequate to the effort it takes to become a chip designer. So good luck finding these, as those who could already moved offshore.

    We also don't have fabs that could make these chips.

    Seems like it's going to be another PPE type of scandal in the making.

    Government will get a pile of crapware without anyone knowing how to even get it to boot.

    But as always someone will get rich.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: What could go wrong?

      But if the government scrapped IR35, so every crystal reports monkey got their Mondeo tax free - then we would be a technological superpower.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What could go wrong?

        I'll have you know crystal reports is an extremely complicated piece of software. You have to line up these little boxes, change the colours to your specification and link them to some data in a spreadsheet. You can link it to a database and do all the grunt work in the software but ain't no one got time for that shit and I'm unsure why anyone would. Why reinvent the wheel? Having said that some of us that used it in the past actually didn't use it other than to create a template then it was VBA all the way. I spent 12 months not actually opening it.

      2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: What could go wrong?

        Scrapping IR35 would be about reinstating level playing field and ensuring small business is taxed the same as large business.

        got their Mondeo tax free

        But if big consultancy manager gets their Bentley tax free, it's okay?

        Don't be a simpleton, mate.

    2. Doctor Tarr
      Thumb Down

      Re: What could go wrong?

      FTFY

      But as always a tory donor / peer / minister’s mate will get rich.

  4. captain veg Silver badge

    British technology

    I'm thinking they'll borrow the reconstructed Babbage Difference Engine from the Science Museum and connect it to a bloody great big steam engine to overclock it.

    -A.

    1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      Re: British technology

      they'll borrow the reconstructed Babbage Difference Engine

      Or they'll "think big" and build an Analytical Engine on the grounds that our engineering and material science have advanced enough to make it feasible, and talk about the vast number of jobs that will be created by the revived Jacquard loom card industry.

      [And if you haven't seen it: The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage is great fun.]

      1. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: British technology

        "We are confident that we shall break the infamous Ten Gear Mile Barrier before the end of the half decade, despite the naysayers repeated attempts to claim that the dreadful Sprocket Incident last month was due to backlash in the Mark 3 Dual Drive Reversible memory stack: DDR3 is safe and the upcoming DDR4 promises to raise the Continuous Shaft frequency to above 60rpm, thereby removing the need to shore up the Thames Embankment against resonance.

        "British Innovation marches on, to the proud sound of our plucky ranks of Grease Boys and WD40 Wallahs singing their shanties to keep in time with the rhythm of the Distributed Pendula Clocks, saving both Our Country and their hands."

    2. NXM

      Re: British technology

      Wheels and cogs are so old hat. They should use my designs for the integrated valve, with millions of tiny valves in one glass envelope.

      OK you'd need a couple of draxes to power it, but think of the prestige!

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: British technology

        The great thing about valve computers is you get a much warmer more rounded answer

        1. captain veg Silver badge

          Re: British technology

          I think that's a distortion of the truth.

          -A.

        2. Version 1.0 Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: British technology

          The best feature is that the valve computers are much easier to maintain - if you start to see problems then just replace the cold valve and it's instantly fixed and running again.

      2. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: British technology

        Nice idea -- no problem of ever decreasing feature size in a vacuum.

        -A.

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: British technology

          Until you reach the point that the Casimir Effect causes your plates to be pushed together and their highly polished surfaces touch and stick together, like gauge blocks.

          Although, if you can harness Casimir, the valves may become self-powering...

    3. NoneSuch Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: British technology

      "I'm thinking they'll borrow the reconstructed Babbage Difference Engine from the Science Museum and connect it to a bloody great big steam engine to overclock it."

      It's available for a free play weekend on Steam.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: British technology

        Finally - a British computer that leaks oil

    4. LybsterRoy Silver badge

      Re: British technology

      Nope - its going to be quantum computer. They just need to buy loads of boxes and cats.....

  5. R Soul Silver badge

    Yet another epic government IT fail

    If this pointless PR stunt becomes reality, it'll cost £1 for an Amstrad e-mailer from the clearance bin at Pissy World and £799,999,999 for the outsourcing contract to Crapita.

    I'm wondering on how that local supercomupter for local people bollocks will work out. The UK has no hiigh-end chip manufacturer or facility - or an IT company with the expertise to build or run a supercomputer.

    1. Arthur the cat Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Yet another epic government IT fail

      The UK has no hiigh-end chip manufacturer or facility - or an IT company with the expertise to build or run a supercomputer.

      Just scale up this cluster.

      1. Julz

        Re: Yet another epic government IT fail

        So that's where all the pi's went...

        1. captain veg Silver badge

          Re: Yet another epic government IT fail

          I was wondering who ate them all.

          -A.

  6. TVU

    "This week British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak unveiled his Science and Technology Framework..."

    If Sunak really wants to make a difference to British science then he ought perhaps to consider rejoining the Horizon programme and to ensure that the UK becomes an Associated State for science and technology cooperation purposes.

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      That is exactly what was agreed in the Brexit withdrawal agreement. The only thing stopping it is the EU refusal to honour that part of the agreement until the disagreement over the wholly-unrelated NI protocol is resolved.

      That might now finally happen.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Blame, regret and finger-pointing. It that all we've got?

        What about Brexit means Brexit?

        Oven Ready.

        Having cake and eating it.

        Winning!

        How's that all going for us...?

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

          Blame, regret and finger-pointing. It that all we've got?

          You forgot incompetence. Our government is a world leader in incompetence. [Waves flag weakly, not noticing it's upside down.]

        2. werdsmith Silver badge

          Don’t trigger codejunky, he will be all over this, foaming at the mouth as usual trying and abjectly failing to defend the indefensible.

      2. TVU

        I think you will find that the dishonouring side was the one led by a lying, deceitful, serial philanderer who introduced the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          No, it was the arrogant, deceitful one that agreed to treat the Irish sea border like any other external border, and then introduced 5 times as many checks there as any of the other EU borders. Their attempts to make the agreement unworkable are what led to the NI protocol bill, and it was the threat of that bill which brought them back to the negotiating table and the new agreement.

          1. TVU

            ^ Now that is a complete denial of reality and the very fact you have chosen to remain anonymous indicates that you are afraid of being associated with your own opinions.

          2. Lars
            Happy

            @AC- 5 times as many checks .

            You must understand that the "5 times as many", is a lot of rubbish. I could, sort of, understand if you wrote "twice" as many even if that is not true either.

            It's like you assume the EU in its despair having lost you have decided to punish you with 5 times as many checks.

            The reality is that you are, as so many other countries a third country and you are treated like other third countries like the USA or South Africa.

            I cannot remember the name of the Tory MP who came out with that "5 times" rubbish but he compared two EU "countries" , perhaps NI to the Netherlands where NI has this special relation with the EU, like the special relation NI has to Ireland, which the UK has not as May's solution was rejected in Britain.

            But personally I find it odd and hard to understand why you can fold for something as ridiculous like 5 times.

            The world is not that complicated. The EU was built to get rid of red tape and border controls internally because it makes business more efficient.

            But outside is outside, and it goes both ways. Trading with the UK got more complicate for the EU too, and more so if the UK started to control that border traffic, but according to der Mogg it's not worth it, as it's slow and expensive.

            Brexit means Brexit, just get over it, the worst is yet to come.

      3. Potemkine! Silver badge

        The only thing stopping it is the EU refusal to honour that part of the agreement until the disagreement over the wholly-unrelated NI protocol is resolved.

        Show me where in the agreement EU wrote that UK should have an unrestricted access to Horizon whatever happens.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Article 710 of the Trade and Cooperation Agreeement (TCA) "GENERAL CONDITIONS FOR PARTICIPATION IN UNION PROGRAMMES AND ACTIVITIES":

          The United Kingdom shall participate in and contribute to the Union programmes, activities, or in exceptional cases, the part of Union programmes or activities, which are open to its participation, and which shall be listed in a Protocol on Programmes and activities in which the United Kingdom participates ("Protocol I").

          Note shall participate. Not "might" or "could" or "if it wants', but shall, unequivocal.

          The "Protocol I" referred to defines the programmes as: Horizon Europe; the Euratom Research and Training programme; the ITER fusion test facility; and the Copernicus earth monitoring system.

          The only condition applied was that the TCA must be ratified by both parties, which has happened. It was signed on 30th December 2020, and entered into force on May 1st, 2021.

          The remaining steps were the various committes to decide work, budgets, etc. That is where the EU is dragging its feet, threatening not to work on those until the NI Protocol issue is resolved, despite there being no justification for that under the TCA.

          1. Lars
            Happy

            shall participate

            No time frame was set, nothing about when. Just a fact.

            I hope Britain will join but a lot regarding the money has to be settled first too.

            Some more trust seem to have been added lately and that of course is a good thing.

            PS. Do you feel Britain has to and is forced to join too, due to the "shall".

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: shall participate

              No time frame was set, nothing about when. Just a fact.

              The clock started ticking once the TCA was ratified, the UK is now waiting for the EU to honour it.

              I hope Britain will join but a lot regarding the money has to be settled first too.

              That was settled in the TCA, I suggest you read it. The UK has been setting aside the required amount since the TCA was ratified.

              Some more trust seem to have been added lately and that of course is a good thing.

              So they say.

              PS. Do you feel Britain has to and is forced to join too, due to the "shall".

              ?? It was clear that the UK wanted to remain part of these programmes, and has been applying pressure to the EU to respect the agreement. That's why it agreed to have that wording in the TCA.

              1. Lars
                Happy

                Re: shall participate

                @Phil O'Sophical

                Horizon Europe is an investment in research and technological development. with a budget of about 100 billion set up by the EU and some other countries.

                It's not a piggy bank you join without first having an agreement on the money needed to insert into the project to take part in it.

                Such details are not defined in the TCA, those details are agreed upon later should Britain join the project and in which parts.

                1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                  Re: shall participate

                  I suggest that you read the relevant parts of the TCA.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Department of Science, Horizon, Innovation, and Technology

      It has a good ring to it and fits right in with HMG. I like your thinking.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Rusty ring...

      2. Yoshi

        Or the Department of Science, Innovation, Technology and Horizon. More fitting for HMG

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Or perhaps the Department of Science, Horizon, Innovation, and Technology?

  7. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Trollface

    10 exaflops of "AI performance"

    Is that enough to give us "42" as an answer ?

    1. deadlockvictim

      Re: 10 exaflops of "AI performance"

      Thankfully then we know what the question is.

      I was at lecture once where two hyperdimensional beings (who looked a lot like small white mice) who revealed to us that it was how many roads must a man walk down, before you can call him a man.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. Jedit Silver badge
    Joke

    "an AI supercomputer called the Good Machine"

    For £800m I'd expect it to be better than good.

    1. veti Silver badge

      Re: "an AI supercomputer called the Good Machine"

      I assume it'll be used to run an AI that will take over all the government's decision making, leaving politicians free to focus on how to siphon money off to their supporters.

    2. Bongwater

      Re: "an AI supercomputer called the Good Machine"

      It's better than bad, it's good! It also rolls down stairs and over your neighbor's dog. Fits on your back and great for a snack.

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: "an AI supercomputer called the Good Machine"

        You may serve it with greens, And it's handy for striking a light.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "an AI supercomputer called the Good Machine"

      Good luck with that. I mean, sure, it should be given that Frontier was about $600 million. But it wasn't made in Britain.

  9. 45RPM Silver badge

    The last government IT project that was a roaring success was? Actually, let’s not be over ambitious. What was the last government project that was in anyway successful? Not just IT, doesn’t even have to be hugely successful.

    Nope. I can’t think of any either. Not under this administration at any rate.

    This government has the opposite of a Midas touch.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Devil

      Hey, a supercomputer's performance is measured in flops...

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        But which flops? Fosbury flops? Of which many will probably be necessary to get the funding out of the government.

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Government had plenty of successful projects, just that they don't benefit tax payer, but rather party donors and their mates.

  10. xyz Silver badge

    So they want a big computer...

    Given the state of the HS2 project (it'll end up as Birmingham to nearly London) they'll probably be sold one from the 1960s. They were big back then.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So they want a big computer...

      announced this morning, after the speculation for weeks, that some bits of HS2 will be delayed to save money. Since when has delaying anything ever saved money!!!! Time value of money means the costs will go up over time you'll save nothing. The only way to save would be scrap the fecking project, but of course the other economic law of throwing good money after bad will apply and they'll keep on going as they think they have invested too much already to scrap the project.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        It's all relative

        You're overlooking the nature of political time and political event horizons (general elections).

        It will reduce spending within the event horizon.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: It's all relative

          It will use spending back to a future Labour government.

          The next announcement will be to run the London to Birmingham section through Hemel Hempstead, Milton Keynes and Rugby. Using an Italian reworking of the APT.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It's all relative

          yes I suppose you're right. Kick it back 2 years then it'll be the next governments problem which will likely be a Labour one. The tories in opposition will then try and blame the incoming Labour government. Honestly shisters ALL of them

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: So they want a big computer...

      Given the state of 1980s nimrod upgrade, they will buy the cpu chips etc. cheap now as that will be cheaper than buying them in 10 years time when the design will be ready along with the purpose built facility…

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    brought to you by the PM that...

    Doesn't know how contactless works... https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/rishi-sunak-contactless-fail-video-b2043035.html

    Doesn't know how QR codes work: https://www.msn.com/en-in/weather/other/rishi-sunak-celebrates-uk-innovation-%E2%80%93-by-posting-a-qr-code-to-twitter/amp/ar-AA18hXEr

    Perhaps this chimps would fair better with IT if they studied something other than economics / politics

    1. Lars
      Happy

      Re: brought to you by the PM that...

      You don't assume Sunak will build that computer so it's more if those who need it and can build it have asked for the money to do it, or if it's more like Boris bridge across to Ireland.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: brought to you by the PM that...

        It's the latter. Politicians like to cut ribbons on mega-projects. If they had asked those who want to use it, they would suggest 10 or maybe 100 smaller computers in universities and research institutes.

        Nuclear weapons are mentioned. I had some experience with AWE, and they are not going to put any of their data on a shared computer!

  12. Phones Sheridan Silver badge

    I'm confused, is "iron" an acronym I missed? i.e. I.R.O.N.

    The headline mentions it, and there's a brief sentence about it part way down. I clicked expecting to see an article about much needed post brexit metal smelting improvements.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "is "iron" an acronym I missed?"

      No, it's just that a "big iron" is "irony" and a £800m "big iron" is "ironical".

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Irony

        Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon.

        Mild steel is almost entirely iron.

        Cast iron has a very high carbon content.

        This might be ironic.

        -A.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Irony

          I had a very thick history teacher who couldn't understand: "steel is iron+carbon which you make by removing the carbon from iron"

          (I was always a smart arse, even as a kid. Now I do it professionally)

    2. captain veg Silver badge

      I.R.O.N.

      Interak, Research Machines, Oric, Newbrain.

      -A.

  13. big col

    The government have been stockpiling pi4's for the past 2 years in order to build the world's largest cluster.

    Which explains the consumer supply chain issues

  14. hammarbtyp

    £800 million computer

    So that is how they intend to manage the EU export paperwork......

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why do you need...

    ...an £800m super computer to run 32-bit Excel Macros? Surely, after the first 4GB of RAM is used up the rest is a waste?

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Why do you need...

      It's more likely needed to calculate people's social credit score.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Why do you need...

      32bit Excel maxed out at 32K rows.

      If you have a population of >65M you are going to need a bigger computer (or >2000 copies of Excel)

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hang on let me do the maths here.

    Ok, we'll need a few of those, a couple of those...carry the 5...

    Yup, £800m will buy the UK Government a 4th Gen Core i5 with 16GB of RAM and Windows 7 Home Edition*

    *based on the same economics used to the track and trace program.

  17. captain veg Silver badge

    who remembers ICL?

    It will be built by Fujitsu. Possibly in Britain, but probably not out of stockpiled OPDs.

    -A.

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: who remembers ICL?

      If its built by fujitsu, someone will have to reset it all the time to show the correct values when it calculates..... after all would be a shame if it was used in some form of criminal case with fuckitsu execs saying "this machine never lies"..........

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: who remembers ICL?

        That was a software problem, not a hardware problem.

        I'll bet the lead devs had a CS PhD from a well known university.

        Nobody rolls out worthless techies at the same scale as Cambridge. They're like the Booker cash and carry of tech wankers.

  18. Conundrum1885

    What about

    Purchasing the chips from another country to stop them reaching other markets?

    Essentially this wouldn't be that different to how the US got titanium to build the SR-71

    Reuse some parts from other projects, with custom firmware, thermal management and PCBs made in the UK.

    This would also be a lot cheaper, and provide much needed revenue for British business.

  19. Hubert Thrunge Jr.
    Devil

    You ve all missed the point

    It's actually a quantitative easing project - pump £800M into the tech/IT industry on a zero delivery development project.

    Like ESN which has gobbled £5.8Bn so far and produced nothing.other than excuses.

    Still £800m is a lot of BBC model B's on a very large Econet. That would be super!

  20. plrndl

    Given the government's record on IT procurement, I doubt if a mere £800 million would cover the cost of the committee meetings to determine where it should be located.

  21. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
    Joke

    100 Million Credits For A Box Of Lights

    The Federation was willing to spend that amount on ORAC*.

    *Our Radically Awesome Computer thats just a perspex box with lights.

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