back to article German 5G network ban said to loom for Huawei and ZTE

The nation of Germany looks set to belatedly join the ban on Huawei and ZTE equipment being used in national telecoms networks, after years of stubbornly resisting pressure from the US to comply. The German federal government plans to forbid mobile operators from installing key components from Huawei and ZTE into their 5G …

  1. heyrick Silver badge

    key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

    So if they aren't having Chinese kit, whose are they having? American? How is that any better?

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

      For starters the US is not engaging in genocide and does not run concentration camps.

      1. fxkeh

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        > For starters the US is not engaging in genocide and does not run concentration camps.

        Well, it did previously - the genocide of the native peoples and the WW2 "internment" camps of anyone looking a bit Asian - but one would think the primary concern of the German government would be how this affects Germany and German citizens, rather than what another country is doing within their borders to their citizens.

        1. TheInstigator

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          To be fair to the US - they did so with the best of intentions in mind - so we should really let them off

          Look at what the US is now - are you saying the Native Americans would have done anything better with the land?

      2. VoiceOfTruth

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        The USA murdered 1 million Iraqis.

        Guantanamo? Ring a bell?

        1. TheInstigator

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          @VoiceOfTruth Although true that is an incredibly harsh position to take - when the US entered Iraq it did so under the banner of truth, democracy, justice and ensuring the stability and safety of the free world.

          Iraq was rumoured to have WMDs and America's war found that rumour to be untrue AND brought freedom and democracy to Iraq - all of which are positive things.

          As to Guantanamo - the inhabitants of Guantanamo are terrorists who deserve everything they get - they either directly participated in or otherwise somewhat involved in the destruction of the World Trade Centres and are imprisoned for their crimes.

          Of course, you could say that certain elements had American training which eventually ended up being used against them, and that the invasion due to WMDs was all oil based - but that is all hearsay and you are anti-American and anti West and anti FREEDOM for saying so

      3. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        "For starters the US is not engaging in genocide and does not run concentration camps."

        What the hell does that have to do with whether or not the country of supply is spying on others?

        It's a really simple question - if the Germans are going to pull out Chinese tech because of fears about back doors, spying, and hijacking important parts of infrastructure.... what are they going to replace that with? The only trustworthy hardware that Germany can use is fully German built. And I suspect such a thing might not exist, else surely they'd have already done that.

        To install American kit in place of the Chinese? We all know that the US government is an unhealthy mixture of paranoid, batshit crazy (well, half of them) and massive data fetishists. We all know that the spook agencies operate above the usual legal process. We all know that they often think their laws apply extraterritorially. Therefore, if we're going to talk about theoretical fears, the only real benefit that America has at this point in time is that they are supposed to be an ally.

        So I repeat the question. If Chinese tech is bad, what tech is good?

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          "So I repeat the question. If Chinese tech is bad, what tech is good"

          The answer is Nordic tech from Ericsson and Nokia, the number 2 and 3 in network equipment manufacturing in the world.

          Had those two companies been able to compete on price with Huawei then it would have been those two from the beginning.

          This is nothing new and some might remember that Trump did not only suggest the USA to buy Greenland but also Nokia or Ericsson.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

            > The answer is Nordic tech from Ericsson and Nokia, the number 2 and 3 in network equipment manufacturing in the world.

            So whilst european, still “foreign” .

            1. Xalran

              Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

              Epecially when you know that a good chunk of the R&D and most of the factory production is done in China for either.

            2. Lonpfrb

              Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

              The answer is Nordic tech from Ericsson and Nokia, the number 2 and 3 in network equipment manufacturing in the world.

              So whilst european, still “foreign”.

              No. Shared values:

              - Intellectual property

              - Fair trade

              - Democracy

              - Rule of law

              - Human rights

              Unlike chinese companies that are controlled by the PRC.

              The cost of buying chinese is not just money but putting our values at risk. Supporting the PRC to dominate the world through the 'Belt and Road' initiative makes no sense and makes for global suffering.

              Only an ignorant fool would buy chinese. It's the only vote you have with PRC...

              1. TheInstigator

                Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

                @Lonpfrb Are you aware the West has also done bad stuff in the past? Although they've stopped now

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          The irony is that theor own security services have confirmed Huawei gear to be safe, so the rest is politics. Given how the US have their fingers in pretty much everything and came up with fun ideas like TIA and the Clipper chip I would not want to trust anything they have their hands in either - plus, it's generations behind..

          That was Huawei's actual sin: being so far ahead in 5G tech that it showed that they could do smart things themselves too. Or maybe this was done because the US efforts of industrial espionage failed..

          1. Charles Bu

            Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

            "have confirmed"

            Past tense misses the actual dilemma.

            It's not Chinese gear right here and now, it's Chinese gear, with all the major investment and operational commitments that brings, for the next couple of decades.

            ie. Just because Chinese gear might (assuming you're comment is true) be safe now, doesn't mean the drinking partner chosen for the duration of the pub lock-in won't slip a little poison into the drink any time later on.

            1. TheInstigator

              Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

              @Charles Bu You make incredibly valid points ... which also hold true for whaever technology provider is chosen ....

        3. MrZoolook

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          "We all know that the US government is an unhealthy mixture of paranoid, batshit crazy (well, half of them)"

          To be clear, with half of them blindly right, and the other half blindly left, they are ALL crazy. Anyone not identifying as centrist, by definition, is indoctrinated into batting one way or the other, rather than for reasonable debate on a subject.

          1. Lars Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

            @MrZoolook

            That is the tragedy of a two party system. Most Americans are center when it comes to what they expect from the society in form of education, healthcare, workers rights and infrastructure and so forth but due to the two party system it's always one or the other and the paranoid have nowhere to go but to try to take over one or the other.

            In "many party" countries run by coalition governments the mad ones form their fringe parties to the far right or the far left and tend to be less dangerous if as loud.

            Less batshit among the Democrats to reveal my view, not to be too diplomatic.

            And add to that the great plague of the English speaking world, Rupert, back in time called "Red Rupert" as he kept a bust of Lenin in his rooms, to quote the Wikipedia.

        4. TheInstigator

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          @heyrick AMERICAN TECH IS GOOD!!!!!!!!

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        the US is not engaging in genocide

        They just do it slower - cops shooting black people without any consequences is still a thing over there

        does not run concentration camps

        And where do you think the expression 'black sites" originates?

        Don't get me wrong, neither has a clean nose but I am loath to go along with someone claiming to be whiter than white to justify something that is just false competition.

        1. TheInstigator

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          "They just do it slower - cops shooting black people without any consequences is still a thing over there"

          If you can't do the time - don't commit the crime

          "And where do you think the expression 'black sites" originates?"

          These are enemies of the state and therefore deserve everything they get - remember the US does not torture - they enhance interrogate.

      5. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        >For starters the US is not engaging in genocide and does not run concentration camps.

        Quite apart from that being debatable from a historical perspective the Chinese don't engage in genocide, period. They've had problems with Islamic fundamentalism -- ISIS or equivalent -- in what the fundamentalists called "East Turkmenistan" (we know it as Xinjang)). By "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doctrine we tend to support fundamentalism when it gives us some leverage against countries we don't like while doing the same thing -- and a lot worse -- where there's no political capital to be made.

        Anyway, if you're an avid KoolAid drinker who am I to stop you? Just remember this has absolutely nothing to do with base station security and everything to do with international sales in a large market -- remember, 'ripping and replacing' is a great sales opportunity for someone, especially if their kit had already lost out in a competitive bidding process. Politicians tend to be cheaper than engineers.

        1. GrumpyKiwi

          Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

          China managed to kill/murder somewhere between 30 and 60 million of its own population during the two great self-inflicted famines from the "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution". That sounds an awful lot like genocide. Period.

          1. TheInstigator

            Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

            @GrumpyKiwi "... of its own population ..."

            As opposed to invading other countries and killing their population - albeit in less numbers

            "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

      6. MrZoolook

        Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

        benderserious.gif

    2. Lars Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

      It will be Nokia and Ericsson no doubt, and I think Germany might still have a stake in Nokia networks.

    3. Xalran

      Re: key parts of critical infrastructure might become dependent on foreign technology

      In telecom, Not American...

      Because there's no American Telecom equipment companies unless you count Cisco, but they have failed miserably so far entering the Radio domain and most of the network functions... And providing transport ( parse : routers ) will only lead you so far in the telecom world.

      The choise is relatively easy in Tlecom :

      - Nokia ( Finland )

      - Ericsson ( Sweden )

      - ZTE ( China )

      - Huawei ( China )

      - a South Korean company ( I'm not sure which one )

      - a Japanese company ( I'm also not sure with one )

      And the last two are not really providing equipments outside their home countries.

  2. VoiceOfTruth

    Well

    -> However, the UK came under sustained political pressure from the US to eject Huawei from its networks, with threats such as a withdrawal of intelligence sharing if Westminster failed to comply with Washington’s demands.

    America's intelligence long term: The Taliban will lose, the western stooge government can last years.

    Analysis: America has no credibility for long term intelligence.

    America's intelligence short term: The people bombed on the last day were terrorists preparing to attack good bible-reading Americans.

    Analysis: The family murdered by America was entirely innocent. America has no credibility for short term intelligence.

    We can do without that kind of unintelligence.

    1. GrumpyKiwi

      Re: Well

      Apart that is from the predictions of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, being foretold 4 months in advance. And the various other public comments on the failures of the Russian forces in said invasion. All of which were extremely accurate. To the point where they either have a mole deep in the Kremlin or their surveillance systems are light years ahead of Russian counter intelligence efforts.

      1. TheInstigator

        Re: Well

        That's because of the amount of spying America does on everyone else!

  3. AMBxx Silver badge
    FAIL

    I'm guessing

    They'll be buying Russian instead.

  4. Grogan Silver badge

    I wouldn't trust American tech either... Cisco had to eat some humble pie when the world found out that they were shipping backdoored equipment at the behest of Uncle Sam.

    So pick your oppressor.

    1. TheInstigator

      Source - or it didn't happen

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Joke -- Cisco, Jupiter are OK -- Huawei and ZTE maybe not so much -- Laugh, laugh, laugh.....

    Quote: "....ban said to loom for Huawei and ZTE...."

    It's a joke, isn't it? Cisco, Jupiter......................lot's of Fort Meade "friends" have been enabling snooping for years and years and years......

    My personal approach is to encrypt everything I send to my friends. That way the friendly folk at Fort Meade (and anyone else snooping) just get to see encryption.

    Oh yes...my friends have the appropriate software......... Example of our private encryption -- good luck reading it whoever you are:

    === Book Cipher Start ===

    Cn6VaF8LuV83AlQp2Tqf8hy3QbsD05slEviHaLixEXiFiB2teNg9QFqnydsTYTgVgJIvCbaPi3UB

    0LGFyzUdinAR430fILKTCf2nehIfsdIH2lUtOzGZMLyvIBIJYt8luzMnUXsrGpcpEDGfavAzmn0N

    stSb6hmjaPCd4DS9qrSFuVmXkrsH2vCroXI9k5CnmlmfSdgHQfO1YZCfezAPs7WXwbyvUviTGj0x

    c7kpwfon0HotsJSnSzyx4fCv6bq56nC5IlALAJWP6t6XaxGBW9EX85ibAHgDej0fcVE3slAV8x0B

    w5g3Wde9ctUNm1s9Af6P85ql4fEraRMvUtwLAl0dmzAD8J6HObS7YFazelYRozm52lE1szsf0ZCp

    iz4JqhSFG1wxUvwnIpE58LKXaLu1KZMXY1EDETyNY3kNYPkXyVKHoHYnYTcr2DctObsDaJ89EFOp

    MzYlKrkhmrMJmXwHspWDOh0fQloLUzwRarKBYHCN8dUJEHknKV874tuvsT2rM98fSzO3ObMVQRGZ

    0ZYLm3CT2hWnSjSn2pclq1GPkh6fO3gd4R8pClKZMlK5EbEdwzU7KPmHUd2DcTiTe5C1kfcVKp6h

    yXKts1O9cDmbkPmRmVGr4DS3KvETgFszytMN87mXiLKlipa5GVAnupaZSTo30XSXAlurGNSX07eb

    uH0dOlI3o163YB6HOzAXy1QLcbAvQ1SNyfupKr6fk3W9yxOJuV01MDSHYD61C50pYDGTcTcX6Zep

    olAngpwxWr0XQvgn8LMtqrkBGl2ZI1cpuD21cP6N8Rw5Y1cZUXmtcz0PUn4bOZoHcZGF23u30bWH

    a3mLmL0VeRMBA7iVEl49EzopgxOfC1GJoBQbexezGxuP05WTk1CnaZOT61GvMBkl8fCJwvQpujyb

    iN8luHo10xi7ufy7Gj2ruPQBGTYnWNInOlOnSJmT8hkr8JYrufOrcf6ZqVKPUfiji185Y98JKTiL

    ODyZIXUPwHsBQTw1Sb4VYvozEnQlKpir0H0RoR6XSlaXkd0Xa9y9KjyhsraNQBAPOtkvoH63CZ6d

    w7M1UlQh0pabEtwty7ovIRUZy9mTQBqtsHMjKpmT0ZwHqpWZqVIFeVGXyPKVW52bkp0BwpStAzcr

    E7InunIlCv2paheRkPObeLAPirepCJATkZ0xW9A3EHCFi5Yp6PwHqBYnorKhAT47sP09YVYLQv8z

    YfgHeJohoFUjojQ5mdODmRGrgxqbIVgNsDORU72fuBYduTs3qpW9IpsZObSlKfwRatSJqH6zkNIB

    i16JevsliVWbCL8tkFoNmTY1wF47mN6LufgLWZqXQnira9yLW3uTebQj6TeNsHwz03Qd4BO1E96z

    YPsbiJ4R2Tudgp8dereNOV8Z8X4zMFQVsVSnIHkzKhqP4Li10fwxI9gPA9GDK3qfCJif6RwtGR8j

    YfIrGpYv6Z8BAlGLaXetOVMLONWXsHCXUJcTYl8fwj6nydkx6VuzcPMzopqXQzyjsLW70vshslSt

    EXurEvyVKpUXKRIL6TM1OtgVgXmhkxSb8BSfijo5KNcVELwFkfyVWjqFyj4vyj2tCPilqBapopCv

    EzW3iVSbIb0JgpoRi1svaRmrmbYPwF2XCPSTgBkLENaxUdSNwV8nGZQvcvoJWrilKRcHQjyBqlur

    4vgPynCBQHib2JmPu9mtqHsxAJILEnQB4rEf0DuJeP6xkP81yLGNMzODE5gBMFeZqtOx8T4JQVYX

    MTWD01mD6PyDUtwT23Q9gVGzA9MRAd2zeJcHK5ghiTgVgV2VixiBuDWxQHiDAVQxM3GX2N01g1sf

    CLoBkV0dAnW9MjGxChsfkl8VspMjUhyrkF4b6BQxUToTcLSvaPOdGRoVszITsHCPSjobmVMzKDQj

    O5ABCbMtmhGdSRYbefeRSNA7gtSBwNEdkzKfc381ufSrwBuLuDoTO147q7IpkjClgxCN41UJWzEd

    kpQNuho1gl0J6fMDmT09qh0tmJcz0DOvIRqv2j8fWbkvSF8vAbu7qxQNi1ut8JkpCbeVwz4nMBCB

    OpgfyD8dQRWlOdEfoBKjWLS16DSFcVmXkzw3slCn612vqnevC7Q5WNu9YdQlAXQduJ2B0LqjsTYR

    Stwps90Tk7EJc9ODUbMN2j0t8fsr4FwLaxilqdGjGfyfOjCF

    == Book Cipher End ==

    1. TheInstigator

      Re: Joke -- Cisco, Jupiter are OK -- Huawei and ZTE maybe not so much -- Laugh, laugh, laugh.....

      This is one thing I've always wondered about - surely I'd have thought that it would be a standard setting on all telecoms equipment to encrypt any traffic being carried on its network? Essentially this would then mean the equipment is secure as long as the encryption standard is secure.

      Obviously this wouldn't stop any form of hardware based intervention - so for example theoritically, Chinese companies could put some form of kill switch in their equipment for use in war time etc - in the same way the US apparently puts kill switches in any military equipment sold overseas ... or the obscurification of GPS accuracy in times of war etc - but in terms of listening in on traffic this would prevent that from happening.

  6. Tron Silver badge

    Ahem.

    U.S. spied on Merkel and other Europeans through Danish cables - broadcaster DR.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spied-merkel-other-top-european-officials-through-danish-2021-05-30

    1. TheInstigator

      Re: Ahem.

      I'm sure the US did it with the best of intentions

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