back to article Signal says it'll shut down in UK if Online Safety Bill approved

Encrypted chat service Signal says it will stop operating in the UK if the British government goes ahead with its Online Safety Bill. The Online Safety Bill contemplates bypassing encryption using device-side scanning to protect children from harmful material, and coincidentally breaking the security of end-to-end encryption …

  1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Care

    I don't think government cares whether people will be using some Signal or not.

    Government is fixated on spying on people and becomes paranoid.

    This should be a huge red flag for everyone and the fact that this bill is even taken seriously by journalists should reveal you the level of corruption in this country.

    After all, how are they going to calculate your social credit score if they don't have any data on you?

    1. b0llchit Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: Care

      After all, how are they going to calculate your social credit score if they don't have any data on you?

      Quite easy... they will be making it up as they go. It is the best "calculated" score one can get. Just like always, they "calculate" your next move and adjust their moves. It is only "calculated" to hit those that must be hit, honest.

      And, by the way, it is dark in the daytime and light at night. Just so that you know the answer to the next calculated questionnaire.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Care

        I mean given that Treasury and HMRC have been making up numbers for ages and nobody cares... you have a point.

      2. Rol

        Re: Care

        I suppose in the same way you get a zero credit score if you have never been in debt in your life, and a much better score if you have consistently lived beyond your means and proved yourself incapable of managing your finances.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: Care

          This concept of young people having to get their first credit card to go into debt and showing they can pay it off is one of the most mind boggling things.

          I even heard things like - if you are going to apply for a mortgage, get some credit card first, max them out and then keep up with payments for a few years, that will show the bank you are reliable.

          When in reality they just make money on interest and foolishness of people.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Care

            Yes, I paid off my mortgage years ago, and own my house outright. My credit score is low because I don't have a mortgage. Idiocy.

            1. Alumoi Silver badge

              Re: Care

              It seems about right to be punished for not owing money to the bank.

              If you deposit money in the bank you own the bank. If you borrow money from the bank the bank owns you Which one do you think the bank likes more?

              1. captain veg Silver badge

                Re: you own the bank

                Close, but not quite.

                If you deposit money in the bank they reward you slightly by paying a small amount of interest.

                To own the bank you have to be a shareholder. And to wield any kind of power your stake has to be big enough to affect the outcome of votes on the directors' remuneration.

                I suspect that you were thinking of building societies, or other forms of mutual society.

                -A.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Care

              Ditto, I ended up putting a monthly subscription on my credit card and then schedule a standing order to pay it off 5 days later. That is enough to keep my credit score healthy without incurring any extra charges or interest.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Care

              And yet, I've paid of my mortgage, have no debt but do have two credit cards that I pay off in full every month and I do have a high score so having a ton of debt is not a requirement of a high credit score.

            4. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

              Re: Care

              same here, the Amazon 'special one' a while back. No mortgage, no tempoary debt worth commenting on, credit cards paid in full monthly etc....

          2. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: Care

            This concept of young people having to get their first credit card to go into debt and showing they can pay it off is one of the most mind boggling things.

            I'm repeatedly told I have a terrible credt score because I have no loans or credit cards. Weirdly, things didn't improve once I took out a morgage.

            When I wanted to hire something for a few months, I had to pay a massively increased deposit because of my "poor" credit score.

            1. captain veg Silver badge

              Re: Care

              > things didn't improve once I took out a morgage.

              I might be able to help. Try taking out a mortgage instead.

              -A.

              1. Doctor Tarr
                Happy

                Re: Care

                If you want a mortgage which doesn't cost you anything then get an offset - arranged without fees. I have one where the value of the savings account = the amount of mortgage, so no interest is charged.

                The mortgage is paid by DD from my current account and the same day a SO is made from the savings to the current account. This keeps the balances equal.

                It also means I've had £100k (now down to 50) of free money, a perfect credit rating of 1000, and an emergency pot in case of the unknowns.

                The mortgage was originally taken out for home improvements which came in under budget so that portion was paid off quickly.

                I also buy as much as possible on reward credit cards but always (this is absolute especially with Amex @ 70% apr) pay them off.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Care

              I'm repeatedly told I have a terrible credt score because I have no loans or credit cards.

              My scrore dropped at one point because I was using too much credit (at half the credit limit on an AmEx card, I put a holiday on it to get the extra protection). A few months later it dropped again because I'd paid off that card & was then criticized for not using enough of my available credit.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Care

            When in reality they just make money on interest and foolishness of people.

            Before meeting me, my partner got into some money problems with credit cards & loans. The solution from the banks & credit card companies was to offer them even more credit!

            1. NATTtrash

              Re: Care

              The solution from the banks & credit card companies was to offer them even more credit!

              Are you really surprised? it's not rocket science you know...

              Have a look: The Secret History of the Credit Card (full documentary) | FRONTLINE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHsTKvAuZc

          4. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: mind boggling things

            Try this on for size.

            It doesn't have to be like that.

            In France, where I live (in case you didn't know) we don't have credit reference agencies. The robust data protection laws here make their immoral and nefarious business model impractical. Imagine that!

            There are, of course, consequences. The big one is that lenders have to carry out their own due diligence. This can be irksome: for example, to get a mortgage* I had to provide bank statements (and explain every single payment noted there), contract of employment, tax returns, contracts governing existing credit facilities, you name it. On the other hand there is no black box "computer says no", and banks tend to know their customers. Had my own bank at that time offered mortgages themselves I would not have had to jump through so many hoops.

            -A.

            * Given that "mortgage" is clearly French in origin it might come as a surprise to discover that they don't exist in France. Instead you get a long-term unsecured loan from whoever will grant that to you. Since it's unsecured, that represents a sizeable risk to the lender. In Britain this would mean a sky-high interest rate. In France you have to take out insurance against defaulting.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: mind boggling things

              The robust data protection laws here make their immoral and nefarious business model impractical.

              You have got to be kidding!

              I lived there for many (20+) years, there may be rules but as always in France they're a joke.

              - A received a letter in work labelled Private & Confidential. I was out, so the admin opened it to see 'if it was important'.

              - Before our marriage my wife & I had separate accounts. When we married we kept them & opened a joint account. If I logged on to my internet banking I could see my account, the joint account, and all of my wife's finances. She could only see hers & the joint one, not mine. This was because I was considered to be the "head of the household".

              - Someone submitted planning permission to build on a vacant lot beside us. We went to the Mairie (town hall) to look at the plans, and were just handed the complete dossier from the prospective houseowner, which included all their financial details, bank info, salary, mortgage, etc. No-one seemed to care when I expressed surprise that they'd hand us all the info, the response was the usual gallic shrug and "Bof!"

              Given that "mortgage" is clearly French in origin it might come as a surprise to discover that they don't exist in France

              Yes they do. There are several ways to secure a loan, one is through an "hypothèque" which is a lien taken by the bank on the property allowing them to seize and sell it if you default (foreclosure). An alternative, until last year, was the "Privilège Prêteurs de Deniers (PPD)", a very similar measure that's a bit cheaper for the borrower if you want to pay off the loan early but less versatile, it allows the bank to auction off the property if you default. Both are essentially mortgages. The insurance is usually just a simple life assurance which will pay off the loan if you die before the end, it's a legal requirement. No French bank that I've dealt with will provide an unsecured loan for anything above a trivial amount, and even there they prefer to secure it against life assurance savings.

              1. captain veg Silver badge

                Re: mind boggling things

                You must have been living in a different France.

                In the one I inhabit lenders will only offer a "crédit immobilier", which is unhypothecated, but requires insurance against default. I borrowed 98% of the purchase price of my house that way. No one I know has "une hypothèque".

                Maybe it's different out in the sticks.

                -A.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: mind boggling things

                  lenders will only offer a "crédit immobilier", which is unhypothecated, but requires insurance against default. I borrowed 98% of the purchase price of my house that way. No one I know has "une hypothèque".

                  Interesting. I've not heard of any banks offering unsecured housing loans, they generally want a guarantee of some sort, usually a hypothèque or PPD, a 3rd-party guarantor ("caution"), or a lien against something else, like a life assurance policy that already has enough money in it to cover the loan ("nantissement"). The latter is what we used for a buy-to-let property, but for our main house it was a hypothèque. I'd check your paperwork very carefully.

                  There is a requirement for insurance, but that generally just covers the loan if you're unable to pay it due to illness or death, and sometimes it can cover limited unemployment. I've never seen anyone offer a simple insurance against default, how would that work? You just tell the bank you can't pay & they leave you with the house & claim the loan on insurance? Seems unlikely.

                  Still, I was really just disagreeing with your assertion that mortgages don't exist there, since credit + hypothèque (or PPD) is a mortgage in form, if not in name.

                  Maybe it's different out in the sticks.

                  Maybe. I was just outside a large city, with a mainstream bank (part of the Credit du Nord group).

                  1. captain veg Silver badge

                    Re: mind boggling things

                    I have to admit that I was surprised by your assertions (assuming that you are the same anonymous coward).

                    I raised the idea of "une hypothèque" with my broker and he described it as something which existed in the past. Certainly I wasn't offered one. Contrarily, when I needed a property loan in Andorra all I was offered was "una hipoteca", and my bank advisor explained that this was indeed completely unlike the situation in France. And, as I mentioned, I don't know anyone in France who actually has "une hypthèque", or even really understands what one is.

                    For what it's worth,. Wikipedia reckons that 40% of French property loans are proper mortgages. I don't know how to reconcile that with my personal experience. Maybe I've just been had. Though given the low and fixed (for term) interest rate, that seems unlikely.

                    -A.

          5. Andy3

            Re: Care

            Wow. My credit score must be awful, as I too paid my mortgage off about 30 years ago and have never fallen behind on any HP or similar arrangements in my entire life (I'm 69). I pay my way, so I never come to the notice of 'the system'.

          6. Jedit Silver badge
            Stop

            "This concept of young people having to get their first credit card to go into debt"

            It's mindboggling because it's fictional. You do build score by showing that you can pay what you agree to pay, but that applies to all contracts and credit agreements, not just cards. The easiest way for a young person to build initial credit score is to do something that most of them are doing anyway: take out a mobile phone contract. If they don't miss a payment, they'll get score - even if it's just a £10 a month PAYG.

        2. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

          Re: Care

          The credit score has never been a measure of how trustworthy you are with credit... it's a measure of how much interest/money the lenders can hope to make of you.

          My current credit score is a measly 578... up from 514 18 months ago... because until 18 months ago I never had anything on credit since the 90's aside from a 30k mortgage that I paid of last year... They keep telling me I can improve my score by increasing my credit limit to at least 4500, but won't increase my limit because my score is too low and credit limit on 3500... but how about a 7k loan at a low rate.... because the 60k in my savings isn't a factor in my credit worthiness. Then punish me and drop my score because I actually used my credit card to buy a new bed & some furniture for the new house and went over 50% of available credit... even though I pay my main CC in full each month and my 2nd card is just a 1k buy now pay later in 4 instalments virtual card for online shopping..... and punish me again because I'm not on the electoral register at the new house months after I fill out all the forms to be put on the electoral register.... but it's positive towards my credit that I have an account to pay my water bill... but not positive for my gas/electric bill because I'm the second named person on that account... so it doesn't count.

          It's all made up bollocks.

        3. ITMA Silver badge

          Re: Care

          It is, on a the face of it, a compete con. Only because one needs to understand what a credit score actually measures.

          The "pinnacle" of good money management, to most, is to be able to live "debt free". But that is NOT what credit scores assess.

          Credit scores assess your ability to manage debt, not money.

          Ego, if you have no debt there is nothing by which your ability to manage it can be assessed, so zero or very low credit score.

          Plus, they don't make anything like as much profit from people who are good at managing money. They make it from people who are in debt.

          Go figure...

          1. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: what credit scores assess

            I'm afraid that your cynicism is not nearly strong enough.

            All the while that credit reference agencies exist and offer their assessment to anyone willing to pay, it's impossible to know for sure what their judgement is used for.

            But in the case of rapacious credit card vendors there's a body of evidence showing that they target people who are right on the edge and thus tempted by (relatively) easy credit at usurious interest.

            Equifax, Experian and the like are facilitators of loan sharking.

            Ban the lot of them.

            -A.

            1. ITMA Silver badge

              Re: what credit scores assess

              Especially since they now all have "offers" on their websites for credit cards.

              They're all just loan sharks or facilitators for loan sharks.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          zero credit score

          A Zero Credit score simply states that the credit reference agencies do not have enough information to provide a credit rating this means that there are no electronic transaction trails available. Any system developed since the early 90's when we first started doing online credit scoring validation should take account of this. I still rember the merriment caused by the system insisting that 'self made millionaires' were put on gas pre-payment meters when they tried to switch to the new Gas Retailer I was working for at the time.

          We adjusted our system fairly quickly to move to a manual credit referencing process for zero scores.

          I do have to wonder if a zero credit score should be notifiable to HMRC and the Serious Crimes agency at this point. If someone owns a million pound house, drives a supercar and yet has no electronic transaction trail, no credit accounts for energy, internet etc then they are either fiddling their taxes or are involved in heavy criminal activity

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: zero credit score

            Wouldn't you get a non-zero score just from being on the electoral register? Add a current account and mobile phone contract and you are good to go.

            1. ITMA Silver badge

              Re: zero credit score

              Not really.

              Even with what appears a "good" credit score you will still often get refused credit if you don't have a track record of managing debt. I know from experience.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Care

        They will commission Prof. Neil Ferguson to create a model which creates your social credit score. That'll wotk well.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Care

      Tho its likely this all will collapse under its own weight with the fact that the UK is about to enter a recession meaning Ofcom (who is tasked with all this) is likely to be super underfunded and unable to enforce 90% of the bill.

    3. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

      Re: Care

      Maybe not about Signal, but what about WhatsApp? If they retract their service even The-Government-Knows-Best naive Brits will have a fit!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Care

        Naaah. I reckon that Whatsapp will just quietly comply, allegedly!

        1. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

          Re: Care

          Those are just rumors bellowed by anonymous cowards.

          No proof exists that Facebook has ever intercepted E2EE messages for any LEA or three-letter agency. There is written proof that Facebook has threatened (just like Signal is doing today) to pull WhatsApp from the market if they're forced to put in backdoors.

    4. The Dogs Meevonks Silver badge

      Re: Care

      As always... my response to the 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear' brigade... is 'If I've done nothing wrong, then there's no justifiable reason to invade my privacy just in case I might do something wrong in the future'

      Next up... thought crimes.

    5. dave 81

      Re: Care

      It has nothing to do with safety, and has everything to do with controlling us.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        you are being controlled ...

        .. for your own safety. Honest.

  2. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

    It sounds as though anyone using an android device with a custom ROM will be criminalised. Does the UK government even know what a custom ROM is?

    1. Alumoi Silver badge

      Yes, whatever ROM hasn't got mandated backdoors installed.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Or any "rooted" device at all.

  3. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Will this cover

    the chat app MI6 agents use in the field to securely communicate with head office? if not... why not?

    And besides ... as has been pointed out lots of times.

    If I'm a child pornographer... I'd be hosting my services on a secure FTP server, rather than sending cp via farcebook messaging

    And if I was a terrorist, There would be innocent sounding messages posted in a forum somewhere... trainspotting+timetables.com for example(dunno if this is a real site)

    "I'll be at Paddington at 3pm to see the King off, bring camera" takes on a whole new meaning......

    I wonder what messaging app MPs will be using and will they be aware the government can read ALL their messages as a result....

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Will this cover

      "I'll be at Paddington at 3pm to see the King off, bring camera" takes on a whole new meaning......

      I posted this a few years back about phrases someone I knew would deliberately use on emails, such as "I was bombing along the Queen's highway"

      https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2016/03/18/web_ads_are_reading_my_keystrokes_and_i_cant_even_spell_propperlie/#c_2813863

      He'd have to update that now to "I was bombing along the Queen's[King's] highway"

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Will this cover

        For a while after "9/11" one of my rotating Usenet sig lines was "Distracted by the music of Anthrax, I let my bin laden with goods crash into the bush", hoping to tickle some scanners.

    2. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

      Re: Will this cover

      >I wonder what messaging app MPs will be using

      A while ago Tory bosses told them to switch from WhatsApp to Signal. I read that on several reputable news websites so it's probably true.

    3. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Will this cover

      You can still do good old key exchange and use steganography so that the key exchange looks like a normal conversation and then use the same method to conceal the encrypted messages.

      It means that the next step for the government will be that people should communicate in a way that one can make sense of.

      So next time you will be sending a drunken message at 3am to your ex, this could be misconstrued as a key exchange and get you charged with an offence.

      Given the nature of cryptography it will be circumstantial whether you actually wanted to exchange keys or it was just a hopeless cry for help.

      That being said, it is clear that government is backing themselves to a corner and this Online Safety Bill has been mandated to be made into law regardless of consequences.

      It has a chance to take the crown of most stupid legislation after IR35 changes.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Will this cover

        that people should communicate in a way that one can make sense of.

        Doesn't bode well for @amanfrommars 1

        I wonder, if he is in fact using this forum to communicating in code

      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Will this cover

        "What do you mean? People can meet in private, and have private conversations???? We'll have to ban that right away!"

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Will this cover

          @Jamie Jones

          ""What do you mean? People can meet in private, and have private conversations???? We'll have to ban that right away!""

          Tested with covid lockdowns

          1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: Will this cover

            Sounds like there is a party going on up there

            [background music - ABBA]

      3. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

        Re: Will this cover

        When I see things like this, which have obviously-bad-and-forseeable consequences, being carried forward by the "think of the children!" brigade, I think of George Orwell's essay, "Shooting an Elephant."

    4. Rol

      Re: Will this cover

      If MI5 had all along concentrated on threats to British society we would never have heard the names Boris Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, etc.

      Instead they focus all of their attention on threats to the status quo, that hasn't been preordained by the 1922 committee.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Will this cover

        Instead they focus all of their attention on threats to the status quo

        Basically protecting interests of big corporations and politicians in their pockets while getting paid by the tax payer for it.

        They are not fit for purpose anymore.

      2. TheMeerkat Silver badge

        Re: Will this cover

        The left-wing hate mongers are the real threat to British society. They clearly demonstrate their hate here.

        1. ScottishYorkshireMan

          Re: Will this cover

          Did the Daily Mail tell you this?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Will this cover

            You don't need to read right-wing hate mongers to know that the far left is still a danger.

            1. ArrZarr Silver badge

              Re: Will this cover

              Anybody on a political extreme is a danger as they become more and more likely to resort to the wrong tactics.

              Of course, there is one particular extreme wing which is getting a lot of attention at the moment for the crap they're trying to pull, especially in the US.

              1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Re: Will this cover

                Are you talking about the extreme centre-left which used the FBI to control online discourse and its relationship with corporations ( see: the original definition of fascism ) to suppress true news stories that were harmful to their candidate?

                1. ArrZarr Silver badge
                  Meh

                  Re: Will this cover

                  I was talking about the fear tactics being employed by the right to instigate culture war issues in lieu of actual policies. I'm not aware of the story you're referring to but my god the manufactured culture war issues are being plastered all over our screens and print media.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Will this cover

                    The manufactured culture war is not coming from the right. The left are out to provoke a full on civil war at this point.

                    1. ArrZarr Silver badge

                      Re: Will this cover

                      I have a feeling that we're never going to agree on this, but do consider which news outlets and political parties are screaming about culture war issues like Trans rights.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Will this cover

                        That is a fake issue. A bit like the 'reproductive healthcare' in the US. It is a smokescreen to distract from the real issues.

                        The extreme left is playing the game of how far can we push things to get a reaction. They are baiting the right so they can play the victim card.

                        The teachers and 'experts' are also just using the 'current thing' diagnosis.

                        Back in the 80s it was E numbers and hyperactivity.

                        Then it was ADHD

                        Then it was autism

                        Now it is gender issues

                        Parents get a quick answer, its not 'their fault', there is 'a fix', simples.

                    2. cyberdemon Silver badge
                      Devil

                      Re: Will this cover

                      > The manufactured culture war is not coming from the right. The left are out to provoke a full on civil war at this point.

                      TBH I think the manufactured culture war is coming from outside. i.e. Russia, China et al. It's not really a left vs right thing, it's just another attempt to divide and fracture western society using an army of social media trolls and bots. It was the same with Brexit imo.

                      I'm "on the left" of the traditional "socialists vs the landed class" argument, yet I could be described as centre-right of things like whether or not biological sex is important in society or whether Britain should be emptying its museums or tearing down statues

                      One reason for my unusual combination of relatively balanced views might be because I don't use social media at all, and so don't get brainwashed into one extreme corner or the other

        2. moonhaus

          Re: Will this cover

          “Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.”

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Will this cover

          It's telling that when the right criticises the left over something, it's always some made-up bollocks. It's almost as if you have no actual material to go on.

        4. Snake Silver badge

          Re: Will this cover

          Besides the statically provable fact that more innocents / bystanders have died in right-wing terrorism than left-wing, do you have a logical point you can make or do you only let your blow hole flap uselessly?

        5. Rol

          Re: Will this cover

          It's interesting how your argument focuses right down to a personal attack, as if previous comments have pierced your very soul, when they were nothing more than a general observation, pushed out there in a quasi-satirical manner.

          Is this a hint at the desperation one might feel when there is no arguing against the facts?

          If there's one thing that has not been off the world's agender since the rise of Fox news, it is hate.

          Hate, Hate Hate! It's almost as if the 2% have recognised how distracting and useful a tool hate really is.

          "Don't look at the billions my left hand is stealing, look at my right hand sticking two fingers up at you all"

  4. SimonL

    Back to sticking things in envelopes and sending 1st class then....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Post Office

      I'll think you'll find that the Post Office has been tasked with intercepting snail mail since 1660.

      1. Rol

        Re: Post Office

        The only way the Royal Mail can sift through all the mail, is to discourage the huge volumes that currently go through the system, as it isn't yet possible to automate steaming the envelope open and reading the contents, often written in a font only intelligible to a lesser mind.

        Oo. hang on I see now why the government have been chopping away at the service now.

        1. Joe W Silver badge

          Re: Post Office

          I suggest you look at what was possible in the GDR. Mail surveillance on an almost industrial scale. Automated (ok, mostly) processes to open envelopes etc.

          Technology is progressing quickly. I cannot think that there have not been any improvements.

          1. doublelayer Silver badge

            Re: Post Office

            I'm sure they can automate the process of opening envelopes and resealing them. I doubt they can automate the process of reading all the mail. I've used OCR software and it has enough trouble with printed text in a normal font. Handwriting is not something it will scan through very well, and people with stuff to hide can always make their writing more sloppy if they need to. Of course, mail isn't very good at allowing recipients to hide or to be mobile, so depending on what communication needs hiding, it's still not a great option from a number of perspectives.

            1. Nifty

              Re: Post Office

              I have to use AI to read my own handwriting.

              1. LateAgain

                Re: Post Office

                Not a doctor then. AI fails at that.

                1. Sean o' bhaile na gleann

                  Re: Post Office

                  I remember reading (many years ago!) about a case where a doctor had left his car at a repair shop for investigation into an irritating fault.

                  He'd left a handwritten description of the symptoms on the front seat.

                  The poor garage mechanic couldn't make head or tail of the scrawl, so he took it to a local pharmacy for translation...

              2. NJS

                Re: Post Office

                I was going to say something similar - given some of the letters I see from relatives if the spooks could provide a transcript after they've finished with the OCR'ing I'd be grateful because then we might both know what's being communicated.

                1. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
                  Joke

                  Re: Post Office

                  say it loud next to your phone and pronto you'll get a mail with the transcript

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      QR codes

      The new 1st and 2nd class stamp also have QR codes

      "Barcoded stamps were introduced in February to make deliveries more efficient and improve security. "

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63367733

      deliveries more efficient and improve security

      Indeed

  5. silent_count
    Facepalm

    Mirror mirror...

    I'm not totally across UK politics but this looks to me like the mirror of the DCMA. The former seeks to make breaking encryption illegal while this proposal seeks to make encryption illegal.

    Bet'cha those nasty pedos use DRM to hide their kiddie porn viewing from the authorities. Won't somebody think of the children!

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: Mirror mirror...

      Next they'll get the idea that all digital imaging devices (cameras, scanners etc) will need to be uniquely identifiable/registered to an owner/internet connected and have software running on them to flag potential breaches - so that the act if taking image can be stopped at source

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Mirror mirror...

        They already are, but to the Chinese authorities.

      2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: Mirror mirror...

        Seriously, I thought already *was* possible to prove that a particular printer had been used to print a particular page (at least, perhaps, if you already suspected the printer in question. I don't know whether the watermarking uniquely identifies devices down to serial numbers).

        I don't know if cameras generate similarly watermarked images, and if they do, whether there is any post-processing software to erase the stenography before you distribute the image. If there is, there is probably a custom ROM out there that "wraps" the camera device, or soon will be.

        So as usual, the serious crims will be ok and the only folks affected will be Joe and Josephine Public. Or at least, that willl be the case until someone takes an image posted by an unsuspecting government official and extracts the watermark and applies that mark to incriminating images. *Then* we'll be told that *of course* it is possible for Bad Guys to "crack" the software that "protects" us all and (in response) even more draconian measures will be required.

        It only stops when the public finally wise up to what we are creating and put the good of civil society back above the convenience of law enforcement.

        tldr: Won't someone think of the adults?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Mirror mirror...

          it is already possible to edit all location data on a picture to show it having being taken at @51.8824298,-2.1114941

        2. Norman Nescio

          Re: Mirror mirror...

          For many, if not most colour printers, the Machine Identification Code, encoded as yellow dots on the print-out links the printed page to the particular printer that printed it. There are technical means by which similar identification patterns can be incorporated in monochrome output e.g. by varying character spacing, typeface geometry or greyscale intensities/dot sizes. Putting a low-density, low-intensity speckle pattern on the printed output is relatively easy and can be made hard to identify.

          For cameras, I'm not aware of digital watermarks that formally link an image to the camera, although it is obviously technically possible. On the other hand, each image sensor has an effectively unique noise pattern which can be extracted from images and used to determine that two images were taken by the same camera.

          Multimedia Forensics: Sensor Fingerprints: Camera Identification and Beyond

          Preprints.org: Testing Robustness of Camera Sensor Fingerprint (PRNU) Identification on Smartphones

          Related to this, the intelligence agencies are working on a global location lookup database - feed in an image and get told where it was taken. CIA/NSA want a photo location finder (2011). In the time since 2011, I expect progress has been made - cf the recent news story of the American hunter caught by the Canadian authorities.

          The BBC have a couple of articles:

          BBC Future: Why printers add secret tracking dots

          BBC Future: The hidden fingerprint inside your photos

          It was ever thus. Typewriters have distinctive 'fingerprints' that allow forensic investigators to determine if two texts have been produced on the same typewriter.

          Wikipedia: Samizdat - Techniques

          Studies in Intelligence Vol. 45 No. 5 (2001) - Eroding the Soviet “Culture of Secrecy” (PDF) : Section "Nightmare for the KGB: The Advent of Photocopy Machines" on page 4

          NN

  6. John H Woods

    Stop operating?

    What does this mean? They won't have offices here? You'll need a SIM that isn't +44 to initiate the service? Or use of Signal will become illegal?

    Because none of these things will "shut Signal Down"

    1. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

      Re: Stop operating?

      Signal will refuse to comply with UK government demands and then UK ISPs will be forced to block Signal traffic.

      1. Spanners
        Big Brother

        Re: Stop operating?

        My nice new Pixel7 comes with a "free" VPN. Now, while this is of dubious effectiveness, it should at least make the type of communication I am using unclear to my provider.

        I suppose that banning working VPNs will be part of this. But this would mean the back door would have to be passed from the government to the phone providers.

        Are we all going to have to set up our own?

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: Stop operating?

          Are we all going to have to set up our own?

          Hosting providers have in their T&C lines about not allowing to host any prohibited content or service.

          That will be a no go, I presume.

        2. DuncanLarge

          Re: Stop operating?

          > My nice new Pixel7 comes with a "free" VPN

          VPN's wont save you, they will block Signal too

      2. aks

        Re: Stop operating?

        Not only Signal but Telegram, that is being used heavily by journalists and others in Ukraine, etc.

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Stop operating?

      Police doing stop and search will have another reason to stop someone.

      Copper: "Oy mate, what are you typing there? Why the app look blueish? Is that Signal? Set your phone aside and put your hands above your head slowly and don't move!"

      *puts phone aside and takes hands slowly above head*

      Copper: "I said don't move!"

      Joe: "But with all due respect, office, you told me to put my hands above head, slowly"

      Copper: "Are you questioning my orders? I said are you questioning my orders?"

      Joe: "I am just trying"

      Copper: "That's it smart arse! You are under arrest!"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Stop operating?

        "Copper: "That's it smart arse! You are under arrest!"

        At least you weren't shot.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: Stop operating?

          *copper reaches for his taser*

          *tasers himself*

          Copper: Bah humbug!

        2. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Stop operating?

          Copper: "You were speeding too, but we'll let that one pass"

    3. Adam 1

      Re: Stop operating?

      > Stop operating? What does this mean?

      Signal scoring a number of home goals on that front. Previously my goto recommendation for a combined messaging app. Now they seem to spend their time trying to be a social platform and the rest of the time removing actually useful functionality like SMS

  7. Version 1.0 Silver badge
    Boffin

    Banning encryption fixes what?

    I know I will think emergency solutions to encryption. Banning it will just create new methods, for example reread this unencrypted illustration.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

      for example reread this unencrypted illustration.

      Instructions unclear.

      edit: I mean a police officer inspecting this concealed message could think it is meant to insult them.

      1. Spanners
        Linux

        Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

        insult them

        There used to be a definition of "insult" that said, "if it's true, it is not an insult".

        Did this ever carry any legal weight and if so does it now?

        1. SCP

          Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

          I shouldn't think so. (NB Insult is different from slander - though a slander could be insulting).

          It can be not so much what you say as how you say it. Without that sarcasm would not exist!

          "A modest man with much to be modest about." - Churchill

      2. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: a police officer inspecting this concealed message could think it is meant to insult them

        I ride a bicycle, some of the time. Don't hate me for that: I also walk, drive and ride far too powerful motorcycles.

        Occasionally, on my bicycle, I pass traffic lights at red. This is wrong, but I do so in the same circumstances that pedestrians cross while the red man is showing -- i.e when it's completely clear and there is no risk or inconvenience to anyone. To know that there is no risk or inconvenience to anyone I have to be super-aware of everything that is going on around me. So, on one occasion while approaching a red light, I was slowing down to stop (but ready to continue) when I spotted the Paris police officer standing next to the lights. This, obviously, would definitely mandate a stop whatever else was going on, but, lo! the lights turned to green, so I continued. He flagged me down.

        I explained that I had seen him and that I would have had to had been stupid to then run the red anyway. He took this as an insult. "Are you calling me stupid?". Cue several minutes of abject grovelling on my part.

        -A.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: a police officer inspecting this concealed message could think it is meant to insult them

          Unless France has Jaywalking laws, it's totally fine for pedestrians to cross on a red.

          For bikes/cars/trucks/lorrys it is not.

          1. Spanners
            Pint

            Re: a police officer inspecting this concealed message could think it is meant to insult them

            Unless France has Jaywalking laws

            As far as I know "jaywalking" as you guys seem to define it is very much a USA and nobody else thing.

            If you want to randomly walk across a busy road, that is simply unwise!

            A US tourist once asked me "what do you call jaywalking here?"

            After he explained it, all I could say was "we call that crossing the road".

            1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

              Re: a police officer inspecting this concealed message could think it is meant to insult them

              . They have it in Israel too (or at least, they did in the 90's)

              My first knowledge of such a thing even existing was when I crossed a quiet road on "red man" outside a busy police station. The Israeli girl I was with flipped her nut at me for apparently taunting arrest.

              None of them saw me, and nothing happened (and I didn't get run over(!)) but I was strongly told by her never to do it again!

              By the way, as an aside, for anyone who didn't know,, Jaywalking laws in America were not to protect pedestrians. Early on in the development of the car, people kept getting run over and suing the car manufacturers, so the car manufacturers lobbied for the law so they'd no longer be liable.

    2. Furbian
      Joke

      Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

      This looks like fun... decades ago on a bus in Liverpool, I saw this fine warning ...

      The inspector will push for the heaviest penalties against offenders.

      With the following letters scrapped off, from these words: 'for the heaviest penalties' ...

      for t e heav e t alt e

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

        Er, what?

        I remember "do not clean soot off the windows" in BR carriages.

        -A.

    3. DuncanLarge

      Re: Banning encryption fixes what?

      > Banning it will just create new methods

      I'll just go back to GPG, they cant stop that.

      If they try to crack down on GPG, use a book cipher

  8. Kurgan

    The old "think of the children" bullshit

    The title says it all.

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: The old "think of the children" bullshit

      The way the birth rates are falling throughout the world, give it enough time and the pesky tykes won't be there to be a problem.

    2. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: The old "think of the children" bullshit

      Ahhh, I remember the days long ago when parents were responsible for their children's safety. These days the parent (singular) has outsourced that to the government.

      1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

        Re: The old "think of the children" bullshit

        These days the parent (singular) has outsourced that to the government.

        Sorry, but that's too broad a generalisation: I've met single parents who go to the ends of the Earth for their kids and I've met married couples who would barely give their kids the time of day.

        1. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: The old "think of the children" bullshit

          I think you missed my subtext. There are more single parents now than when I was a kid by choice rather than circumstance. Even in two parent households, parenting has been outsourced or at least the government would like to take that task over without any implied warranty and it's being welcomed.

          There were plenty of parents that mucked right in during lockdown to make sure their children kept up to grade standards, but many more that didn't and whinged about how they would feed their kids without free school lunches. These parents looking like they've spent thousands on tattoos and piercings. Some parents are still complaining that their kids are now a couple of years behind. That wouldn't have happened with me. I'd have received a set of books and assignments from my parents. I was already encouraged to read rather than watch TV and video games weren't yet a thing outside of arcades that ate up coins like a Wyvern. It didn't matter what I read (but not comics) as long as I was stuck in a book. I believe that my spelling and comprehension has always benefitted from that.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The old "think of the children" bullshit

            >Some parents are still complaining that their kids are now a couple of years behind.

            Would that be ones that can't count given that schools were only shut for about 3-4 months - and were open all the time for kids of keyworkers.

      2. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: children's safety outsourced to the government.

        Utterly ridiculous statement. It's been many years since "the government" has had the slightest interest in supporting anyone in society, be they child or parent. Pensioners, maybe; they do tend to vote Tory, after all.

        Me, I remember when parents didn't have to assume sole responsibility for their childrens' safety because the neighbours all looked out for kids. I suspect that they still do.

        -A.

  9. VoiceOfTruth

    Whatever form this law takes, it will be misused

    We've been down this route many times. RIPA was intended for the usual "terrorists and serious crime" purpose. Then it was used to catch parents trying to get their children into a better school. The congestion charge cameras were intended for that purpose. Then they were changed to a full time police surveillance system. Then it turns out that most police officers are corrupt, while the "good honest officers" (how many of them are there really? 2%?) are busy turning blind eyes to the crimes committed by their colleagues.

    How much the establishment hates the people of this country. How much they do not being at the business end of a camera. Go and have a look on YouTube for people pointing cameras outside police stations. The police turn out in force for that despite it not being an offence. But if you are burgled, they are too busy to get off their arses.

  10. navarac Silver badge

    Government implementation of *anything* vaguely attached to IT is suspect at best, and over schedule and over-cost. I don't think Signal has anything to worry about for some years to come.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ref the book called "Crash"

  11. mark l 2 Silver badge

    "At least Northern Ireland and Scotland will be spared. The Home Office legislative proposals, if adopted, will apply only to England and Wales. ®"

    I mean its already failed then, as what is to stop someone setting up a business to sell such devices based in Scotland or NI where it is perfectly legal to do so and selling them to people from England and Wales, after all they don't check your phone for compliance as you cross from one part of the UK to another.

    Plus what about none UK residents who visit the UK, is their none compliant device going to get seized by border patrol if they landed at Heathrow but they are allowed to keep it if they arrived via Belfast or Edinburgh?

    I wonder which muppets come up with these schemes? I expect people who are just trying to justify their jobs by spending time and tax payers money coming up with legislation which has no chance of working in the real world, to keep the won't someone thing of the children brigade happy.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Plus what about none UK residents who visit the UK, is their none compliant device going to get seized by border patrol if they landed at Heathrow but they are allowed to keep it if they arrived via Belfast or Edinburgh?

      Looks like there is an opportunity for another mates contract. Ensure only government approved phones can sign in to the mobile network. When someone arrives at the border, they will be able to deposit their phones in the storage and will be given a government approved phone as a loaner, that you could exchange for your own phone when leaving the country.

      Bonus point that you could transfer your contact list and approved apps to government approved phone and government would make a copy of all your data.

    2. Stork

      Or just setting up online shop in one of the aforementioned jurisdictions.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Don't forget about CBDC that is coming as well. Government will have complete control over your money, so you won't be able to buy anything that is not approved in an online shop.

  12. Fazal Majid

    So will Element (Matrix)

    Matthew Hodgson, CEO of Element, the home of the Matrix secure messaging platform also said he will move their HQ away from the UK if this passes:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34923544

  13. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

    This is one of the problems of having a left wing government. They think they have a right to know and control everything.

    Unfortunately the opposition is even more left wing. Tragic times.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      This has more to do with stupid people in high office, lacking the capability that the post requires, focussing on laws which make no sense so it looks like they are doing something worthwhile.

      It will also be used as a critique of the opposition (Labour, Lib Dems et al) when they oppose it in any way.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        This is one of the problems of having a left wing government

        This has more to do with stupid people in high office

        These are not mutually exclusive.

    2. jonathan keith

      Absolutely. I mean, just how the bloody hell has a filthy pinko like Suella Braverman managed to wangle her way into the big chair at the Home Department? It's intolerable!

    3. heyrick Silver badge

      Left wing? Left wing?!?

    4. captain veg Silver badge

      You seem to have conflated "left-wing" and "authoritarian". They are far from the same thing.

      The current government is right-wing and authoritarian.

      I should like to see a government which is left-wing and liberal. I have serious doubts that the current opposition will deliver that if elected.

      -A.

    5. ds11

      ..when you have shifted so far to the right that you have fallen off the edge of the world, and are now looking at everything sideways

  14. John H Woods

    You know ...

    ... that "degrees to the left" is not a measure of authoritarianism? Authoritarianism is almost entirely orthogonal to the L/R spectrum.

    1. Spanners
      Happy

      Re: You know ...

      I like the Political Compass https://www.politicalcompass.org/.

      It shows me as left of centre and very anti-authoritarian.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You know ...

        Spanners,

        Thanks for the link to 'www.politicalcompass.org'.

        Very interesting, entertaining and informative.

        [Not often you get all three !!!]

        :)

        Also led by accident, as browsing the 'Interwebs' so often does, to the Climate docs that the Oil companies had kept secret on https://www.climatefiles.com/collection-index/

        Many thanks for that also.

        :)

      2. Captain Hogwash Silver badge

        Re: You know ...

        I'm Chomsky's nose.

      3. Dizzy Dwarf

        Re: You know ...

        That has me down as Chaotic Evil

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You know ...

          At least you aren't "Lawful Evil".

          Those are the type currently in government.

          1. Spanners
            Unhappy

            Re: You know ...

            Those are the type currently in government.

            Our government in the UK is more "Unlawful IDGAFF"

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: You know ...

      It's orthogonal because left or right discard the human nature and their ideas typically don't match the real world and how people behave.

      People who crave power will have certain traits that will manifest themselves regardless if that person becomes the leader of the left or right.

      They most likely will be authoritarian and will adjust their messaging according to which ideology they managed to attach themselves.

      This will then create cognitive dissonance among the supporters.

      Classic example is the Tories. This is probably the most left wing party (in its current incarnation) we had for decades and yet most people call it right wing.

      1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

        Re: You know ...

        Even super far alt right Boris is left wing. That's why so many of us were disappointed to see the left wing media and left wing Tories bring her down.

        1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

          Re: You know ...

          * Her being Truss, the first right wing PM we've had since Thatcher.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: You know ...

            Her being Truss, the first right wing PM we've had since Thatcher

            Yes, but to be fair that's only because she's so incompetent she gets left and right mixed up...

            1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
              Facepalm

              Re: You know ...

              She was brought down by the entire left wing establishment pretending that going back to the top rate of tax Labour had for all but the last six months of their last stint in office was extreme.

              If you aren't going to think for yourself you might as well go along with their "Truss is thick" narrative.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: You know ...

                "The entire left wing establishment." Listen to yourself, you RWNJ. There is only one group to blame for Truss' downfall: The Conservative Party.

                1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

                  Re: You know ...

                  Well, sort of.

                  The Conservative Party ( which is mostly centre-left. They don't call Cameron the Hair To Blair because he plays the guitar ) and the media which is all centre-left nowadays.

                  I was a Times subscriber at the time. They repeatedly openly lied in order to contribute to restoring the centre-left consensus. If The Times is lying to push a left-wing agenda, what hope does the public have? Obviously the BBC, Sky, et al are all centre left.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You know ...

        Luckily !!! :)

        Left-wing or right-wing is the least of out worries now !!!

        In the UK., we need to be more concerned by a simple but important factor .....

        Fit for Government or Not fit for Government !!!

        I mean this at the most basic sense of are they:

        fit intelligence wise,

        socially aware,

        able to think outside their own immediate life-experience and

        capable of formulating and following a plan to improve the economy for ALL peoples benefit not just the people who work in the city of London.

        Not very much to aspire to !!!

        :)

        1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

          Re: You know ...

          You're making the mistake of thinking that politician is a job where the right man can succeed, if only they have the moral compass, right coloured tie or if they knew how much a pint of milk is.

          Governments are a terrible way to do things, so we should restrict them to doing only what can't be done elsewhere. Neither is a popularity contest isn't a good way of determining who is a competent administrator. Unfortunately it's the best option available so we should do our best to keep those popular people from administering more than they have to.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: You know ...

            @Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells

            "Unfortunately it's the best option available so we should do our best to keep those popular people from administering more than they have to."

            How on earth do you get a downvote for that comment never mind 7? With the amount of complaining people do against government how can they mistake government as not terrible at their job?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: You know ...

              Trickle down voting?

              1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Re: You know ...

                Trickle down economics isn't a thing. It's a caricature ( ie: a lie ) being told to you by the left who want to pretend that their opponents policies are different to what they are because those fictitious policies are easier to attack.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: You know ...

                  Trickle Down-Voting is clearly a thing though.

            2. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

              Re: You know ...

              A very popular sentiment is that "government is terrible, we must vote for more of it".

              Sadly it has led us here.

      3. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: You know ...

        Please highlight a left-wing policy from the Tories, if you would.

        The only reason some people call it left wing is their Overton window has sadly become unhinged and they're now under the impression that Atilla the Hun was a centrist dad.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: You know ...

          Sure.

          Left wing hatred for small business and the working class person becoming a filthy capitalist going their own way rather than giving up their life in a factory? Check.

          Tories have taken Labour's IR35 to the next level, where it is practically not possible to run small service based business anymore (now it applies only to b2b, but you mentioned Overton window).

          Plus added progressive taxes with threshold set so low to ensure that working class stays working class and can't climb the social ladder, while at the same time asset stripping of the middle class.

          There is more. If you go on British communists forums, they are over the moon about Brexit, coming CBDC (finally able to control the rich and the banks), Online Safety Bill (total control of communication like in the "good" Soviet times), Digital ID (easier to tell an enemy of the revolution).

          Other things like same sex marriage, legalisation of cannabis (it is legal from 2018 for medicinal purposes and if you have prescription).

          That's why many people have been calling Labour weak opposition, because they can't really oppose things they would want to introduce themselves, so they largely resort to "Tory bad" critique.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: You know ...

            The small business thing is easy to understand. The Tories' biggest donors are now from the financial sector, they want tax cuts and fewer regulations and that's what they get. The welfare state is sacrificed, small business is taxed to make up the difference. That is not left-wing.

            The things you list that you claim communists are over the moon about are also things that authoritarians are over the moon about.

            In practice it is impossible to get an NHS prescription for cannabis. It seems to have been a law made for just for two children who needed it in 2018 to get the public off the government's back, since then the NHS won't fund or prescribe it.

            Finally same-sex marriage was passed into law relatively late compared to neighbouring countries and opposite-sex couples couldn't even enter into a civil partnership until 2019. It took a long time for the UK to allow something as common sense as civil partnerships and marriage for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Nothing particularly left-wing about that.

            When Truss had her mayfly-like premiership an FT study found this:

            Study names Tories as ‘most right-wing government’ in the world

            Since then the Tories have inched back, but only because they realised they were boiling the frog a little too quickly.

            1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

              Re: You know ...

              So making left wing policies for different reasons make them right wing? Okay.

              Regarding the medical cannabis, thousands of people are now using it as it is possible to get a private prescription - not ideal and that excludes many disabled from much needed help, but then read what happened to disabled and homeless in the left loving Soviet Union.

              The linked FT "study" is simply bollocks, as they are just parroting the WEF narrative without substance. Like the link to "slashing tax for the rich" - typical clickbait. The threshold for 45% tax rate is so low, that is catching aspiring working class who after working hard and climbing corporate ladder in their 40s finally get a position where they get a salary someone in the US would laugh at and is now hitting the 45% rate. FT and other outlets like this like to engage in such misinformation. The rich don't pay income taxes, so dropping 45% rate wouldn't make much difference to them.

              1. Adair Silver badge

                Re: You know ...

                'Left wing' and 'right wing' are clearly concepts that have now completely jumped the shark and are functionally meaningless, i.e. they mean whatever the speaker chooses them to mean at that particular moment, so it is now impossible to use them—might just as well make a grunting noise.

                1. doublelayer Silver badge

                  Re: You know ...

                  I agree with you, although I'm not sure they ever worked as concepts. There are so many different political philosophies that a one-dimensional sorting process does not work in the slightest. At one point, my university friends and I were making a diagram that we thought better represented the variety of viewpoints so you could more easily describe where someone was politically. We started with the two-dimensional model of authoritarianism to libertarianism, then split the liberalism to conservatism dimension into two perpendicular dimensions: willingness to operate and fund services (fiscal policy, in other words) and government's action on social, moral, or religious issues (itself easy to split into several). Then we added another one for international interventionism or isolationism. Then we came to the realization that it wouldn't help anyone if we described a politician's views in terms of a point somewhere within a tesseract and that we weren't done naming dimensions that were orthogonal to others.

                  As far as I can tell, some people just choose one wing they think is better, and then if they disagree with something, they say it's from the other one, as we've seen in above comments.

                  1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

                    Re: You know ...

                    Willingness to fund services and willingness to operate services are barely related.

              2. Dan 55 Silver badge

                Re: You know ...

                So making left wing policies for different reasons make them right wing? Okay.

                Different parties with different places on the political spectrum can have have the same policy for different reasons, yes.

                Regarding the medical cannabis, thousands of people are now using it as it is possible to get a private prescription

                That is right, and using the law to carve out a new market just for the private sector is definitely not a classic left-wing policy.

                The linked FT "study" is simply bollocks, as they are just parroting the WEF narrative

                ... and yeah, I can tell this is going to be a productive thread. I'll get off here if you don't mind.

                1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

                  Re: You know ...

                  If you think that the FT is a reliable source of political news then you need to give your head a wobble.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: You know ...

                    On a spectrum of un-reliable to reliable sources of 'political' views, with the sun (our star, not the toilet paper for cats), as 'reliable' and Pluto as unreliable, I'd put the FT firmly inside Earth's orbit, and a random internet commentator well out in the Oorrt cloud.

                2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

                  Re: You know ...

                  ... and yeah, I can tell this is going to be a productive thread. I'll get off here if you don't mind.

                  Classic denial when the reality doesn't match your cognitive dissonance.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So how does that work then ?

    How will signal know it's on a UK based device ? By IP. By pinky promise ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So how does that work then ?

      Pretty much. This won't work to catch any actual criminals for exactly the same reason the piracy URL bans didn't work. Not that these laws are ever really used against CSAM or terrorists. The German government passed laws years ago to allow search histories to be acquired by court order, only 2% were ever used for underage porn cases, over 60% were used for drug cases.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: So how does that work then ?

      Not even that, if it's on an England-and-Wales based device.

      I'm sure the Home Office have got it all thought out, there must be an IP subnet reserved just for E&W or something.

    3. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: So how does that work then ?

      If it covered all the UK, then they would be able to block registrations with a +44 phone number. Since it's England and Wales only, they can't do that (unless they mess up, which is always an option). They could block numbers with local dialing codes, but that would probably have a lot of false positives. Most likely, what would happen is that they wouldn't block anyone, but they would explicitly refuse to deal with the UK authorities and see what the authorities do in response, possibly including legally-enforced blocking efforts and ensuring that no Signal developer will come to the UK anymore for fear of being arrested.

      1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

        Re: So how does that work then ?

        You don't need to be in the UK to buy or use a UK phone number. Also, your IP address has no relation to your physical loction. All the government has is FUD against most people.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: So how does that work then ?

          How would this even work if you're at the Scottish border? One step north to apply Scottish law, two steps south to apply English law?

          1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

            Re: So how does that work then ?

            Almost certainly by using the location of the base station you were currently connected to.

            None of this has to make sense or be effective. It's just another tool in the box when either law enforcement wants to go on a fishing expedition or law enforcement have already decided they want to pick on someone but don't have any grounds yet.

          2. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

            Re: So how does that work then ?

            Presumably Signal will continue operating their service from abroad. It'll be up to Google/Apple or the carriers to block it.

        2. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: So how does that work then ?

          "You don't need to be in the UK to buy or use a UK phone number."

          Correct, but it could be enough for the UK to decide that what you do with that phone number is something their laws can regulate, so if you were from abroad but operating that number, you would still have a chance of having UK law enforcement asking for information. Signal could, if this law covered all of the UK, decide that this is enough reason to block all UK numbers, even if they're operated from outside the country.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: So how does that work then ?

            Signal don't actually have anyone's phone number, just a hash of it. The change would have to be made in the client.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: So how does that work then ?

              Signal does retain the phone number used for registrations. They do get the complete, unhashed number at account registration because they need it to send a verification message to confirm that it is your number. They keep it afterward to serve as an account recovery mechanism. The hashing comes in when they scan contacts lists for Signal users, with the hashes serving as a method of maintaining the privacy of any person who doesn't use Signal and making it harder to associate a user with the numbers they looked up. They don't need to retain the numbers if they reject the ones they wanted to at registration time. Still, I don't think they will end up using that method. It would be possible if they chose to.

              1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                Re: So how does that work then ?

                Are you sure there's an account recovery mechanism on Signal? If you mean setting a PIN so other people can't register using your phone number, they don't store your phone number to do that.

                You could, if you wanted, register Signal using another phone number.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: So how does that work then ?

        +44 also covers Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man. Which are not in the UK.

        1. DuncanLarge

          Re: So how does that work then ?

          I doubt the sleepy-head bed-hair ridden idiot of a president at Signal even cares about that distinction.

          Those places are tiny and Signal barely has anyone using it anyway so its very unlikely they have any users there at all.

    4. DuncanLarge

      Re: So how does that work then ?

      They can just remove the app for UK users, you wont see it in the app store.

      And yes, Signal needs a phone number to register. All mobiles in the UK will have a +44 number, that will be enough.

      Foreign mobiles roaming may be spared but roaming is pricey anyway.

  16. petef

    Apps make encrypted communication convenient. There many ways for the bad guys to encrypt and then send via other channels.

    1. NewModelArmy

      Exactly. All that people have to do is encrypt before sending by the messaging app.

      1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

        I'm opposed to this ban but to be fair, if crims have to manually encrypt before sending and decrypt after receiving, they are more likely to make mistakes.

        You can't really mess up using Signal because it handles the encryption for you.

        Also key exchange would be a massive pain.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bring it in

    They cannot police the streets

    They cannot stop boats from France

    They cannot stop abuse images being sent

    What makes anyone think they will be able to police this at all

    Next new Law

    “Don’t do crimes”

    Next headline

    “The problem of crime has been solved”

    Politicians are truly useless

    God help us all

    1. Mike 125

      Re: Bring it in

      Conservative MP for Ashfield Lee Anderson:

      "Nobody has ever committed a crime after being executed."

      Corollary:

      "Kill everyone before they get the chance."

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Bring it in

        I think that's the logic they're testing out over there. <points to the left side of the ocean>

      2. Steve Kerr

        Re: Bring it in

        Think that's heading in the direction of Judge Death from 2000ad

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bring it in

        IIRC figures showed roughly 10% of those executed hadn't actually committed the crime they were executed for. Even in the USA, its a high enough number that should make people think twice about enacting the sentence.

      4. Chris Fox

        Re: Bring it in

        "Conservative MP for Ashfield Lee Anderson:"

        ... and current Deputy Chair of the Tory party! (So not just another old BSC backwoodsman MP.)

    2. Graham Dawson Silver badge

      Re: Bring it in

      No, you're making a mistake. They can do all these things. They choose not to.

    3. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

      Re: Bring it in

      So let's keep voting for the left wing parties ( Tories, Labour, etc ) who keep trying to poke the governments nose into every aspect of our lives but screw it up at every turn.

      We need a right wing government that is going to shrink the state.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bring it in

        >keep trying to poke the governments nose into every aspect of our lives but screw it up at every turn.

        Yea, 'cos vast, monopolistic corporations never do that, do they.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bring it in

          They are simply an arm of the government, or maybe the other way around. The big corps never exist isolated from big govt.

        2. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Bring it in

          @AC

          "Yea, 'cos vast, monopolistic corporations never do that, do they."

          Entities under the rules of the land set by government and regulated by market struggle to do so. THE monopoly that is the state with all its powers of regulation, application of laws and ability of force (even lethal) is not to be mistaken for a cuddly toy.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bring it in

        >>>We need a right wing government that is going to shrink the state.

        And make the trains run on time too?!

        This just in: person on the extremity of the Political Right sees everyone as radical leftist threat shock.

  18. JohnMurray

    errrmmm

    "If Signal withdraws its services from the UK, it will particularly harm journalists, campaigners and activists who rely on end-to-end encryption to communicate safely."

    I think....that is the whole point anyway.....to harm journalists/activists, and other irritating people who believe in 'freedom'

  19. JohnMurray

    "If Signal withdraws its services from the UK, it will particularly harm journalists, campaigners and activists who rely on end-to-end encryption to communicate safely."

    I think....that is the whole point anyway.....to harm journalists/activists, and other irritating people who believe in 'freedom'

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Here is why secret backdoors simply do NOT work and only serve criminals

    The chances of a government being able to keeping a backdoor key secret are quite simply zero. Nul. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

    To give you some practical evidence of this, hit a search engine for TSA keys, that gives you a physical example of wonderful any government is at keeping a secret - you can get images, pre-cut keys (heck, even on Amazon for key 2 and 7 as they're near identical) and even 3D print templates. Implement this idiocy I give it a week, max, before mainly criminals will have their hands on it and ecommerce on the Net is in essence wiped out.

    It's interesting that these backdoor attempts keep showing up every couple of years ago. The US is quite keen on this too - again - because the lessons learned when the Clipper chip idea was mooted have clearly been forgotten by now.

    Lunacy, thy vehicle is politics.

    1. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: Here is why secret backdoors simply do NOT work and only serve criminals

      "hit a search engine for TSA keys,"

      When I used to fly, the TSA would just lop off the locks and toss the pieces in the luggage with the notice that we are all safer now that my bag has been throughly rummaged, my toiletries and first aid kit dumped out and mixed in with my clothes and anything of value removed. They can't be bothered with using the approved keys as they have too many bags to toss to meet their quotas to mess with using a key.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Signal, Telegram....Some Of Us Don't Care!!

    Quote: "The Online Safety Bill contemplates bypassing encryption ... and coincidentally breaking the security of end-to-end encryption..."

    Network Service == Single Point Of Failure ..... have I mentioned this before?

    *** "bypassing encryption"....but who's encryption would that be?

    Suppose a group of citizens use encryption/decryption implemented by their group, where the private group encryption/decryption is implemented ONLY ON GROUP END-POINT DEVICES?

    Then it doesn't matter what happens on the network!! Gmail will be an adequate delivery mechanism. Really!!

    And if the group happens to use Signal (or Telegram), the snoops who break E2EE will find......PRIVATE ENCRYPTION!!

    Online Safety!!! Ha!!!

    1. Graham Cobb Silver badge

      Re: Signal, Telegram....Some Of Us Don't Care!!

      I am guessing that this is the reason that they also want to make possessing a device makes encryption easy illegal, with strict liability. They don't want to have to prove that you are doing anything illegal - just that you own a device that they have put on a list!

      1. John H Woods

        Re: Signal, Telegram....Some Of Us Don't Care!!

        So they'll have to ban RPis and lots of other kit.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Signal, Telegram....Some Of Us Don't Care!!

        @Graham_Cobb

        Quote: "...ONLY ON GROUP END-POINT DEVICES..."

        Really? Ban unknown software packages on who knows how many end-point devices?

        Yup.......I'm sure a law can be written to enact the ban.......but how to enforce that law? Inspect every laptop in the land every month? Even the air-gapped ones?

        Current laws can't even stop the AMG Mercs doing 70 miles an hour on my neighbourhood roads!!!

        So.....yet again.....our lawmakers in Westminster propose to "do something".......which can never be enforced!! Your taxpayer dollar at work!!!!

        1. Down not across

          Re: Signal, Telegram....Some Of Us Don't Care!!

          So.....yet again.....our lawmakers in Westminster propose to "do something".......which can never be enforced!! Your taxpayer dollar at work!!!!

          Bit premature perhaps. It's still GBP at the moment..

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bypass This Encryption!!

    Signal!! Ha!! The nice folk in Cheltenham (or Fort Meade) are welcome to figure out this message....crafted especially for them.

    No E2EE.....just a nice message courtesy of El Reg:

    == Begin ==

    OdQb85WRm1cJy7OPmZYFml8TsvOBEpip61Gh4xqRsB69wvgH4xqbsB6PyFcn85YRcjk1UrUTmlA1

    ARSzOpAdqbm74xs5sB6vmZKR4xsDsB87EtWbKTax4xsTsB8JYNMZ4xsZsB8T4F65Sb0D4xsjsB8r

    0T6D4xsvsBA14xszsBA50T6T4xu5sBADinad4xuJsBAPmfA7MVqp4xuZsBAb6FYvQFElCZk1c5qT

    2FYHy3e1oroHqnArcvmX4xwJeJYxi34t4xwReJa54xwdeJaHSBmz4xy3eJaT4xyDeJaZ8hWH4xyP

    eJaf4xyZeJapi36h4xyxeJaz4z01eJcFSBov4z0FeJcL4z0LeJcP8hY34z0VeJcX2RWb4z0hsBEp

    mZUL4z0vsBEx8ze5gRqdUVcN4z2PsBGBmZUz4z2dsBGP4z2nsBGTmZWH4z2vsBGh4z49sBGpmZWb

    4z4LsBI74z4RsBIBmZWt4z4bsBIJ

    == End ==

    1. heyrick Silver badge

      Re: Bypass This Encryption!!

      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

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Yup.......Bypassed!!!

        We're talking about something A BIT MORE SOPHISTICATED than base64. Still..............maybe you could look at AES or samba20..............

        == Begin ==

        Its the time of year

        Now that Spring is in the air

        When those two wet gits with their girly curly hair

        Make another song for moronic holidays

        That nauseate-ate-ate

        In a million different ways

        From the shores of Spain

        To the coast of Southern France

        No matter where you hide

        You just can't escape this dance

        Hold a chicken in the air

        Stick a deckchair up your nose

        Buy a jumbo jet

        And then bury all your clothes

        Paint your left knee green

        Then extract your wisdom teeth

        Form a string quartet

        And pretend your name is Keith

        Skin yourself alive

        Learn to speak Arapahoe

        Climb inside a dog

        And behead an eskimo

        Eat a Renault Four with salami in your ears

        Casserole your gran

        Disembowel yourself with spears

        The disco is vibrating

        The sound is loud and grating

        Its truly nauseating

        Let's do the dance again

        Hold a chicken in the air

        Stick a deckchair up your nose

        Yes you'll hear this song in the holiday discos

        And there's no escape in the clubs or in the bars

        You would hear this song if you holidayed in Mars

        Skin yourself alive

        Learn to speak Arapahoe

        Climb inside a dog

        And behead an eskimo

        Now you've heard it once

        Your brain will spring a leak

        And though you hate this song

        You'll be humming it for weeks

        Hold a chicken in the air

        Stick a deckchair up your nose

        Buy a jumbo jet

        And then bury all your clothes

        La la la la la

        La la la la la la la

        La la la la la

        La la la la la la laaaaaaa

        == End ==

        1. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: Yup.......Bypassed!!!

          "We're talking about something A BIT MORE SOPHISTICATED than base64"

          Remember, it's the government we're talking about. Base64 is sophisticated cutting edge encryption that is clearly being used by hardened criminals who are after children and bitcoins...blah blah etc.

          (extra points if you get the reference to what I posted)

      2. Number6

        Re: Bypass This Encryption!!

        Trivial stuff. Now, double ROT-13 is way more challenging.

  23. This post has been deleted by its author

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Thing is the bill is such a unworkable mess that it is likely to collapse under its own weight just look at the last UK age verification law that was delayed over and over again until it was quietly scraped.

    There also the fact that the UK is about to enter a recession meaning Ofcom is likely to be super underfunded and unable to enforce 90% of the bill.

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Devil

      If OFcom is going to be as effective as OFgen, then its going to enforce exactly 0.00 % of the bill.

      Next week... making tea in chocolate teapots.....

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Brexit V2

    Time to exit the rest of the world...

  26. xyz123 Silver badge

    RIPA - its for your safety....however with over 150,000 'snoops' by people who just want to find out what the lady down the street posted to facebook, this is going the same way.

    Basically a bill to cripple encryption for citizens, banks and companies. All with "officials" allowed to access data without a warrant.

    So like the 25,000+ "council inspections" into peoples data to see if they admitted putting their wheelie bin out a day early.

    or the 10k+ local authority searches into whether or not people they fancied had posted to tinder, grindr, e-harmony etc.

    or the fact that BIN MEN were allowed RIPA access to people data, and used it big-time for basically shits n giggles.

  27. captain veg Silver badge

    I suppose we should be thankful for an actual UK story, but...

    "The bill as currently formulated would obligate social media companies"

    Oblige. OBLIGE, DAMN IT. Not "obligate".

    I know that the latter has more syllables, but that doesn't make make it clevererer.

    -A.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: I suppose we should be thankful for an actual UK story, but...

      Someone burglarized El Reg's dictionary.

    2. Bebu

      Re: I suppose we should be thankful for an actual UK story, but...

      I was wondering about that. I assumed the obligate v. obliged has more legal (statutory) force in the UK.

      Oblige to me has a certain voluntary or optional or conditional sense - sans noblesse sans oblige. Obligate < obligation would convey a stronger sense or complusion.

      I would use require or mandate or compel etc instead.

      A prior comment used a conditional like "If I'm a xxxx pornographer...." which omitting the "if" is pretty much admitting guilt. I for one would use the archaic subjunctive :) "If I were a xxxx pornographer" would not fly without the "if" but I suppose the self tasering plod would not notice.

      The Scots must feel like the Canadians - if the Scots could dig a very deep trench along Hadrian's wall and attach a humungous outboard motor to their side, they would motor away to perhaps sunnier climes - just south of Tasmania might be suitable for the Caledonian temperament ;)

      1. John H Woods

        Re: I suppose we should be thankful for an actual UK story, but...

        ITYM the Antonine Wall, Hadrian's is in Northumbria :-)

      2. Mike 137 Silver badge

        Re: I suppose we should be thankful for an actual UK story, but...

        "I was wondering about that. I assumed the obligate v. obliged has more legal (statutory) force in the UK"

        Strictly (referring to its etymology) oblige is a verb and obligate is the associated adjective. But as etymology has not been part of language education for a long time, the distinction has become blurred. And by the way (speaking as someone who deals quite a lot with legislation) I note that the precision of the language used in framing law has declined quite markedly over the last 20 years or so -- just as it has in other areas of social communication (probably to a great extent because etymology is not taught any more).

  28. Ryan D

    Gives a whole new meaning to BREXIT

    Apply new laws, watch companies leave, wonder what went wrong. Repeat.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The more they restrict

    The more people innovate.

    They are donkeys.

  30. StargateSg7

    The UK government can basically go 'F' itself --- I will just produce multiple high end encrpted chat and file transfer applications with source code and just release it all completely OPEN SOURCE with no restrictions OF ANY SORT put on them

    aka they will be set as completely COPYLEFT !!!!

    And since I am really good at coding, I can make the source code in Basic, C/C++, JAVA, Pascal, Python, RUST, even just pure HTML and nothing can be done!

    SO SUCK IT !!!!!

    V

    1. hayzoos

      I believe putting the source in pseudocode is all that would be required. Then you must arrange for it to be printed on t-shirts. Politicians' heads may rapidly expand beyond the cranium's ability to hold grey matter. Please do not mistake that statement as a suggestion of the presence of grey matter.

  31. tel2016

    If it's 'for the sake of the children', what's to stop pedos compressing images in a password-protected zip and sending that as a file attachment? Signal allows this, so any onboard scanning is circumvented by pre-zipping on another device and uploading to phone before sending.

    1. Grogan Silver badge

      ... or archives with serious encryption (+obfuscation) that governments would choke on. This isn't about stopping child porn, organized crime or terrorism, it's about spying on the populace.

      They'd have to make it a crime to root your devices too. What about non-mobile devices, like laptops and PCs, you'll never stop anyone from installing software. Criminals could write their own encrypted, peer to peer communications programs, even.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Don't try to argue with logic against this bill.

      If there was any ability for logical thinking in the group of morons that came up with this bill they would have abandoned this quite swiftly once they worked out the consequences.

      No, this is a group of people trying to (again) execute their own agenda, it has zero to do with logic or even the stated goals. As soon as you hear "think of the children" or "we need to stop terrorists" you already know that there is a 99% chance someone is cooking up some giveaway money or influence for his or her mates instead of having any actual concerns that need to be addressed.

    3. DuncanLarge

      Easy, block encrypted archives. Just like a virus scanner.

  32. Snowy Silver badge
    Coat

    Does this

    Make owning and using an old non supported phone a criminal offense?

    1. Bebu

      Re: Does this

      An old Blackberry would probably be caught by this.

      In AU they wouldn't work anyway as 2G is long gone, 3G goes in 2024. My small Nokia Asha 300 will soon be ewaste :(.

      One simple hack would be dual booting phones - the hardware is up to it. Two roms (the dodgy one could be "volatile" as in thermite rom for those annoying law enforcement nuisances.)

      An interesting option would be to run a hypervisor on the phone's hardware and run both a conforming and non-comporming version of Android, IOS etc on the phone.

      Even with one OS a container technology like Docker could pull down an ad hoc "Signal" instance as required and would evaporate on completion.

      I thought the UK had a clown for PM with Boris but it is quite clear they really have the full Ding-a-Ling Brothers three ring circus. I mean bloody turnips - there should be an eleventh circle of Dantes hell under satan's arse for such fools.

      1. CommanderGalaxian
        Headmaster

        Re: Does this

        That's essentially what the EncroChat phones did (i.e boot into an ordinary innocent looking phone image, or boot into the secret hidden phone image for secure comms).. Your plan is very much what they UK Gov have in their sights for criminalising.

      2. TimMaher Silver badge
        Coat

        Don’t mention turnips.

        Apparently Therese Coffey thinks you should eat them instead of lettuce.

        See my ancient comment “My Life as a Lettuce”. The memoirs of Liz Truss.

  33. Jamie Jones Silver badge

    Also, don't forget:

    "UK risks being listed as a ‘human rights abuser’, NGO warns

    Human Rights Watch warns UK has ‘very short window’ to reverse legislation, including restrictions on the right to protest

    The UK government could soon make the list of countries that abuse rather than protect human rights with its “outright assault” on the rights of its own citizens and aggressive roll-back of protections such as on the right to assemble and protest, according to the international NGO Human Rights Watch (HRW)."

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jan/12/uk-risks-being-listed-as-a-human-rights-abuser-human-rights-watch

  34. redpola

    Someone in government must have a donor in the burner phone business.

    I think the UK has the stupidest government it’s ever had in all of history.

    It’s like they believe their own anti-experts mantra and that governing is simply making up unenforceable laws and then expecting someone else to enforce them.

    Shambolic.

    1. Toni the terrible
      Facepalm

      That is the mindset of politicians in power. Kneejerk actions to show they care (without actually doing so) and passing laws that their own gov employees/civil service noted is either unenforceable or has bad consequences (not even unexpected ones) but their political advisors (ignorant idiots that they are) think their voters will appreciate or their corrupt partners desire. They do expect them to be enforced but are unwilling to spend the cash that might make it possible to do so. Then they blame the gov employees / civil service for the fail.

      Sometimes the Fail is their aim; so they can say 'they tried and others prevented them' so so they can repeat and do worse things

  35. Potemkine! Silver badge

    If those legislators are logical, then they should ask the same thing to Royal Mail, Fedex, UPS and al. They should open every letter and every parcel to be sure there's no harmful and/or illegal content in it, or be made legally responsible if they don't. Starting by the ones sent to the legislators, of course.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hold your horses!

    At least Northern Ireland and Scotland will be spared. The Home Office legislative proposals, if adopted, will apply only to England and Wales.

    Until Humza Yousaf takes the reigns of power in Scotland as the new SNP leader.

    This guy wanted to criminalise people's private conversations, conducted in their own homes, if they breached his definition of "hate speech".

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Children's protection is a Ruse

    Will this legislation be honest to its word or just big brother wants to control everything, child protection is a rouse, because people will always support it.

    what's app says it use encryption but we all know, if the government wants they will get access to it.

    Stop child abuse as well children's wellbeing like anyone else is important,

    Catholic Church, government officer involved in children's degradation can be hushed away.

  38. flayman

    "Good luck developing your moribund tech industry with that attitude."

    Well, yes. There's that.

  39. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    It's not very British

    is it?

  40. DuncanLarge

    Shot in the foot.

    I abandoned Signal since they dropped SMS support.

    Sure SMS is insecure, but I preffered to have Signal as me default SMS client as it was more trustworthy. I preferred to have that upgrade path to a Signal chat that was useful for getting others onto the platform.

    Alas after 10 years of using Signal, nobody joined me. They stayed on SMS or Whatsapp or any other number of esoteric options. They have no care to install yet another app, just to chat to me. Whatsapp is good enough for them and as it also uses the Signal protocol, well it will do for me too.

    And now, to find that if the UK reduced the effectiveness of encryption, instead of working to make Signal work for me like they did in Iran etc when Iran cracked down on whatsapp, Signal will simply walk?

    That new president of theirs is a piece of work I must say. Not only has she dropped one of the good features Signal had (SMS integration) but she also will just leave a whole country in the dust. A country of users who dont make anyone any money through the use of Signal. The Government probably wonders who the hell Signal are, what do they care if some tiny little group of developers walk away, thinking somehow they are big and mighty and that if they were to walk away MP's would shed tears!

    The president of Signal is a maniac. Killed the project dead by dropping SMS, thinks her company is bigger than it is so that a whole Government will worry about them walking away and abandoning a minority of users.

    I saw her profile photo on her blog, she looked half awake and she loves bed-hair. She is playing the hard line, but without the strong foundations behind her needed to actually mean it! It's like a wooden toy manufacturer making toys that are sold only at local craft fairs trying to hold the Government to ransom :D

    I loved SIgnal a lot. Steve Gibson introduced me to it when it was still called TextSecure. I've been using it as a GPL'd SMS app with full encryption upgrade path for over 10 years and no sod has bothered to join me. I rejoiced as the Signal protocol was incorporated into Whatsapp and FB messenger, because it worked and was good! Signal may be small I thought but at least their protocol is gaining acceptance! Whoohoo.

    Then they dropped SMS, leaving me with god knows what written by god knows who. They banned me from the message boards as I posted a nice and polite thankyou but farewell post, which was really polite and congratulatory and merely said I have to leave but maybe I will be back. And they bloody banned me as a troll because they were tired of getting angry messages about SMS. And now the bed-hair ridden pretentious president says that even if I were still a user, even a donating one, they will abandon me to my snooping government rather than find a way to let me keep being secure.

    Well F**K you Signal. Enjoy your decline into irrelevance. Sorry you dont like to hear it but the ONLY reason many people used you was because of the SMS integration helping replace untrustworthy default apps and someone would have succeeded in getting a contact or two to install Signal too. You think you are bigger than you are.

    It's just really sad.

  41. Tron Silver badge

    A world-beating internet from the people who brought you Brexit.

    Blocking all those companies run by Johnny Foreigner and all that nasty encryption. People will still be able to post comments on edgy sites like mumsnet and El Reg - their posts will simply be checked by civil servants, manually, before they are forwarded to the official mail address of the relevant web site by Royal Mail.

    All UK web sites (the only ones remaining visible in the UK) will need to be manually checked by a government regulator to ensure they won't offend anyone, each time they are updated. This might take a while, but patience is a virtue.

    And a world-beating way of protecting children: The internet will only function between 9pm (the watershed) and 6am, when all of Britain's under 18s have had their cocoa and are tucked up in bed.

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