back to article Who writes Linux and open source software?

Even now, I run into those who think Linux and open source software is made by people living in their parents' basement and writing the code out of the goodness of their hearts. Wrong. So, so wrong. Yes, even now, some people write open source code to scratch an itch or just because they enjoy it. But if you look closely, you' …

  1. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Unhappy

    I knew this would end in tears.

    What a sad day it was when the most evil of evil companies took control of open source projects. Is anybody checking what they are putting into the code? For all I know the Linux kernel is now a worse piece of spyware than Windows itself.

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: I knew this would end in tears.

      "Linux kernel is now a worse piece of spyware than Windows"

      citation needed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I knew this would end in tears.

        You missed off the "For all I know... " opening to that quote. No citation needed.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I knew this would end in tears.

          I'm not worried about the kernel. That does have people checking and reviewing all the code that goes in it. But the overall sentiment is still valid, since (as we all know) a linux system is far more than just the kernel. I don't know what the review process is like for Gnome, or systemd, for example (both are common on linux systems, although not essential).

          If you want an OS where all the code is checked, you can try OpenBSD. But as soon as you install software on it (Firefox? Chrome?) then your problems start again.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: I knew this would end in tears.

            As regards systemd - Poeterring works for Microsoft these days. Possibly EEE is well on the way.

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: I knew this would end in tears.

          I did indeed - but it's a hell of an allegation without any basis, particularly given that such evidence should be pretty easy to find - it's not like the kernel is closed source.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I knew this would end in tears.

      the Linux kernel is now a worse piece of spyware than Windows itself

      s/spyware/shit/

    3. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      Re: I knew this would end in tears.

      Is anybody checking what they are putting into the code?

      *cough*systemd*cough*

      [Yes, I know he doesn't work for them, but his heart and soulspleen do.]

    4. jake Silver badge

      Re: I knew this would end in tears.

      "For all I know the Linux kernel is now a worse piece of spyware than Windows itself."

      Troll, shill, or just woefully uninformed/highly ignorant?

      Shhirley you are aware that Linus Torvalds, the Linux benevolent dictator for life, is not in the employ of Microsoft and that his Linux Kernel is not hosted on GitHub.

      To see just exactly how well the Kernel is publicly scrutinized, subscribe to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. The minutia will astound you.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ... you've been raised up to spit at the very name ...

    No, I was not.

    That feeling came to me through sheer anger and frustration, after dealing with MS software for about three of four years.

    Feeling that never went away, only to became stronger till I left IT and stopped having to deal with MS's crap to make a living.

    ... not your dad's Microsoft.

    Microsoft was never my dad's, had it been he would have made it a decent and much better company.

    My dad was by no means perfect, but it happens that he was not an asshole, see?

    In short, get over it.

    No, don't think so.

    As long as my memory remains intact, I will always remember what MS is and stands for.

    I know it is Friday, but that's no reason to be daft ...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That feeling came to me through sheer anger and frustration, after dealing with MS software for about three of four years.

      Try 40, and that's not just dealing with the software, it's also observing how actual technical considerations were quickly eradicated in purchase decisions (made sense because the software they have produced over the years has never managed to rise above mediocre in terms of quality, and deliberately abysmal when it came to interoperability).

      So no, I'm not "getting over it" because even now you see evidence that they're still playing the same games - makes sense, because they do still work on people who are unable to identify the hard facts.

      1. J. Cook Silver badge

        And that's not including their support, either.

        I opened a ticket for an (admittedly self-inflicted) group policy issue that's causing the App store and store Apps to be blocked for no apparent reason.

        the support tech I got latched on to something else entirely and refused to let go of it. Yes, I know putting the user and computer object into a testing OU where almost all policies are blocked(1) fixes the problem- I'm not moving all 1700 users and 700 plus computers into that one OU to fix a single problem that realistically only affects one person, and will cause widespread chaos and havoc to the rest of the environment.

        So, I get to spend several painstaking days slowly and methodically re-building the policy set back into that one OU to figure out what the exact setting is that breaks it, because there's f#%k-all worth of documentation for what the app store and apps 'bought' through it require as far as policies and permissions are concerned.

        1) except for two very, VERY specific ones, one of which isn't applicable

      2. Snake Silver badge

        RE: games

        "Try 40, and that's not just dealing with the software, it's also observing how actual technical considerations were quickly eradicated in purchase decisions "

        I hate to be so negative, but kindly tell me *what* company doesn't make those same choices (especially nowadays)?? BMW and Mercedes-Benz used to make reliable, long-lasting cars...and now they use plastics to replace metal and rubber, easier to assemble and far cheaper to mass produce, but unreliable in the technical long-term.

        Apple. Samsung. Sony. Facebook. Dell. Daimler-Benz.

        Every company now makes a decision based upon profit FIRST, technical or customer satisfaction motives...somewhere else in line. So I'm calling it out, MS is somehow taken to task for compromising in world of compromises, when so many other companies seem to get a comparative free pass. Should / could they do better? Heck yes! But don't go holding MS's feet to the fire as an 'outlier' of compromised products, considering our modern world can't depend upon anything reliable any more.

        1. Gene Cash Silver badge

          Re: RE: games

          What a fine example of whataboutism.

          No, they are not getting a free pass, I would rant just as hard about BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Dell, were they the subject of the current conversation.

          I don't by from any of the companies you listed.

          I'm not listing MS as an outlier. I'm saying they're shit. I'm not saying other companies are not shit.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "the software they have produced over the years has never managed to rise above mediocre in terms of quality"

        FORTRAN for CP/M was, in fact, OK. Bu that was many years ago.

        1. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Wasn't most of their reasonably okay-to-good stuff just nicked off someone else anyway? Gates' hysterical shrieking about people pirating his stuff always seemed a bit... special.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Folks, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, neither of whom had any love for open source or Linux, haven't been calling the shots at Microsoft for almost a decade. This is not your dad's Microsoft. In short, get over it.

      Yeah, well, I hate to admit it, but you might be completely, utterly right here...

      I mean, in my days (yes squirt, was there myself) Steve Balmer was so honest to call you cancer in your face...

      Nowadays, in our double-faced world of "we take your <if..then;else;fi> very seriously", they just try to f*** you up the a*** when you're not looking. And make it EXTREMELY difficult if you are trying to find that toggle switch disagreeing with them.

      THAT is something completely different, and pity the "oh-so-stressed-want-to-be-an-influencer-but-keep-repeating-others"...

      And sure, we also know that the neck beards are not putting together all the code. Remember junior, most here didn't just read about it on a screen of 160.7 x 77.6 x 7.85mm while having that cool frappuccino with low fat lama milk...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "not your dad's Microsoft."

      Means "it's not the Microsoft of your dad's time", it does not mean "it's the Microsoft owned by your father".

      HTH.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ... does not mean "it's the Microsoft owned by your father".

        Really?

        Damn ...

        How silly of me.

  3. Claverhouse
    Angel

    Never Forgive, Never Forget

    Folks, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, neither of whom had any love for open source or Linux, haven't been calling the shots at Microsoft for almost a decade

    Why would I care ?

    .

    Scum MS was; Scum they remain.

    1. gerryg

      Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

      Harshly expressed but let's focus on interoperability and proper standards then the sentiment might be better understood

    2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

      They love open source - it's basically free code and company does not have to spend money on salaries and royalties.

      The suckers in the basement will code anything for a bit of pat on the back.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

        "The suckers in the basement will code anything for a bit of pat on the back."

        I have been contributing to the FOSS world since before BSD was BSD (and indeed, before Microsoft met an IBM PC). Quite frankly, I have never thought about getting paid for it for one simple reason: It doesn't matter.

        Read that again, it's important: It doesn't matter.

        I wrote code, created patches, chased down bugs, wrote documentation, and all the other bits & bobs that go into FOSS because I am extremely selfish. I wanted it to work for ME, my way, in my time. Once it worked the way I wanted it to work, it solved a problem that I had, which more than paid for the time and effort that I put into it.

        Then I released it to the wild, without caring if anyone else needed it. It's MINE, it scratched my itch ... now, if you have the same itch feel free to make use of my scratching post. No point in you re-inventing the wheel to do the same job ... and better, it frees you up to work on something to fix another itch.

        Thankfully, other people have many other itches. In aggregate, we have created something useful. Without moneybags getting under foot.

        And you, the holier than thou person that you are, see fit to denigrate this? What an asshole.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

          "What an asshole."

          And one who didn't even read TFA.

        2. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

          In my case it's more likely to be gaming mods. Whenever anyone wants anything I've worked on, they can have it for free, I'm just doing it for fun so if it makes anyone else's game more fun I'm cool with that. I only get stroppy if they take my stuff and claim they did it (this just goes with the territory, unfortunately) or that some people think that using my stuff gives them unlimited access to feature requests demands which can get a bit wearing when they're all "gimme this! NAO!!1"

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

        "...company does not have to spend money...

        The suckers in the basement..."

        RTFA

      3. This post has been deleted by its author

      4. G40

        Re: Never Forgive, Never Forget

        Did you read the article? Understand the core arguments? Even notice them?

  4. Adair Silver badge

    This is old news ...

    anyone with any interest in 'open source' software over the last twenty years (and more) knows full well that commercial interests have been interested in, and contributed significantly to, both the Linux kernel and the associated software all the way up the stack. Why wouldn't they?

    Isn't that rather the point of FLOSS: ANYONE is free to use and contribute, and if something works well for someone better than the alternatives, why wouldn't they use it, and maybe choose to help develop it.

    As long as the underlying principles of FLOSS are upheld who really cares who contributes, and whether they get paid to do it? It's beside the point.

    1. VoiceOfTruth

      Re: This is old news ...

      -> both the Linux kernel and the associated software all the way up the stack

      The kernel gets way too much attention. Ordinary users do nothing with the kernel any more than they do with the NT kernel in Windows. They use software such as LibreOffice or MySQL (both given away for free by Sun years back). Before trying to counter this argument, how are you trying to go that? By using a web browser? Yes, as I wrote, most users do not have anything to do with the kernel.

      1. LionelB Silver badge

        Re: This is old news ...

        > Before trying to counter this argument, how are you trying to go that? By using a web browser?

        Well, yes. By using a web browser that relies on the kernel to function.

        When I drive my car, I employ a sophisticated userland system (which includes a steering-wheel, gears and pedals) that interfaces to the engine and transmission systems. (I never have anything to do with the transmission/engine---which occasionally screw up---as I lack the expertise.)

        1. VoiceOfTruth

          Re: This is old news ...

          All of which is true. In my post I said that too much attention is given to the kernel. And it is. 99% of car users do not care if piston is 95mm or 96mm wide, but when it comes to the Linux kernel it suddenly becomes a newsworthy item. Meanwhile the pedals on your car are far more important to you as a user.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            "too much attention is given to the kernel."

            How much, in your opinion, is "enough"?

            I'm sure ElReg will take your view under advisement, before carefully wrapping it in last night's fishwrap and sliding it ever so gently into the trash.

            1. VoiceOfTruth

              Re: This is old news ...

              Some people seem to think that all El Reg readers hang on every last code commit to the Linux kernel. Oooo, look here's something - a new tweak to ext4 which will do something marginally different but nearly everyone will not notice. Here's an updated driver for Intel graphics chips to make them perform 3% better (but they're still crap). Yes, it's not interesting to most people or indeed to most Linux users.

              This article is about Linux AND OSS. As I wrote, $toomuch attention is paid to the Linux kernel when there is vastly more OSS out there. People use LibreOffice without going anywhere near Linux.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: This is old news ...

                And again the attempted degradation. Hysterical.

                Next we're going to be told to get lives, watch :-)

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: This is old news ...

                  What is that "life" thing you're talking about?

                  :)

                  1. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

                    Re: This is old news ...

                    I had to Google it. It looks awful. *shudder*

          2. LionelB Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            Funnily enough, though I hardly think about, and am incapable of maintaining my car's engine/transmission, I do know a bit about its function, e.g., road handling, fuel efficiency, emission levels, etc. And I'm actually quite interested in hearing about developments in engine/transmission technology - e.g., hybrids, battery technologies, etc. I'm sure many car owners are similar. Likewise, I imagine that many computer users -- especially those frequenting a tech site like El Reg --- have an interest in the technologies under the hood.

          3. keithpeter Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            @Voice

            The article is about programmers who contribute to projects. Not sure what user numbers have to do with the discussion.

            Icon: in need of enlightenment.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: This is old news ...

        "The kernel gets way too much attention. Ordinary users do nothing with the kernel"

        This is ElReg. Many of the readers here are not "ordinary users" (whatever that means). This tends to colo(u)r both the content of the rag, and the conversation of the commentardariat, some of whom are contributors to the Linux kernel. Deal with it.

    2. Arbuthnot the Magnificent

      Re: This is old news ...

      "...who really cares who contributes.."

      Because it's MS. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

      1. Adair Silver badge

        Re: This is old news ...

        Assuming that response isn't just for laughs, if the FLOSS philosophy AND license/s is/are being upheld then there is nothing to fear from EEE—we can always stick a fork in it and move on, as has frequently happened when someone decides to try and 'own' what doesn't actually belong to them.

      2. Lars
        Happy

        Re: This is old news ...

        "Because it's MS. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish."

        For MS it's rateher "if you cannot beat them, join them".

        There is no way MS could extinguish Linux today. They did try but failed, and I don't think they are losing their sleep due to that.

        1. R Soul Silver badge

          Re: This is old news ...

          "There is no way MS could extinguish Linux today."

          Since they've recently hired Poettering, it seems they're going to give it another go.

          Mind you, Poettering's done a fairly good job at extinguishing Linux all by himself.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            "Mind you, Poettering's done a fairly good job at extinguishing Linux all by himself."

            What colo(u)r is the sky on your planet? None of my computers run anything built by him, and none of them ever will. I seem to get on with what I need to do with Linux quite nicely, thankyouverymuch.

            1. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

              Re: This is old news ...

              It's just annoying that Poetterware's tentacles are everywhere. Even on FreeBSD, some packages pull in weird dependencies that eventually require a partial systemd API to keep them happy. And I've been using Mint for my desktop stuff after deciding Gentoo seemed too much like hard work, which dates back to a time before I knew what a menace systemd is; I'm still trying to overcome the inertia that's caused so much resistance to reinstalling, but I'm going to have to bite the bullet one day because it seems to inexorably become more intrusive, annoying and broken.

              I think the problem is it's so widespread that it's very likely to bite the unwary and is probably causing reputational damage to Linux as end-users see it.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: This is old news ...

                ... it seems to inexorably become more intrusive, annoying and broken.

                Oh ...

                It seems?

                Really?

                Like some other 'tard has said before:

                ---

                Systemd is a virus, a cancer or whatever you want to call it. It is noxious stuff.

                It works just like the registry does in MS operating systems.

                It's a developer sanctioned virus running inside the OS, constantly changing and going deeper and deeper into the host with every iteration and as a result, progressively putting an end to the possibility of knowing/controlling what is going on inside your box as it becomes more and more obscure.

                Systemd is nothing but a putsch to eventually generate and then force a convergence of Windows with or into Linux, which is obviously not good for Linux and if unchecked, will be Linux's undoing.

                There's nothing new going on here: it's nothing but the well known MSBrace at work.

                Now go and tell me that Microsoft has absolutely nothing to do with how systemd is crawling inside/infecting the Linux ecosystem.

                ---

                Not seems at all, old boy.

                1. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

                  Re: This is old news ...

                  I'm not someone you need to convince, I hate the bloody thing, and the attitude of its creators.

                  (And "old boy" indeed; dunno what's worse, that or some snot-nosed gamer calling me "grandma".) (Also the hypocrisy of me calling anyone else "snot-nosed".)

    3. TVU Silver badge

      Re: This is old news ...

      "Isn't that rather the point of FLOSS: ANYONE is free to use and contribute, and if something works well for someone better than the alternatives, why wouldn't they use it, and maybe choose to help develop it"

      Indeed, and Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols has raised some valid points.

      If 92.5% of recent kernel development came from corporate entities then that is not necessarily a bad thing because it is also in these corporations' interest to have a modern, up to date kernel including the latest features which we all benefit from. It also guarantees continued professional development of the kernel as well. The alternative is what we see elsewhere in the open source world where useful software has been abandoned because the few volunteer developers have retired or their paid work now takes up more of their time.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: This is old news ...

        Just remember that Intel, AMD and ARM (etc.) absolutely HAVE to contribute to the kernel, or their hardware will not work properly under Linux. I rather think that their shareholders would be a trifle annoyed should they pull out of that development.

        1. emfiliane

          Re: This is old news ...

          Raw driver support is obviously critical, but I've worked with Intel engineers assigned to several different completely unrelated open-source projects. They've made a bunch of their proprietary math, HPC, video, etc accelerator libraries open source, with whole teams dedicated to them, sometimes even assigned them to new stewardship entirely (SVT-AV1 was transferred to Alliance of Open Media, for instance) while still retaining most of the original Intel-employed team.

          1. that one in the corner Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            > They've made a bunch of their proprietary math, HPC, video, etc accelerator libraries open source

            The cynic in me wonders: are those accelerators by any chance (still) coded to run markedly better on Genuine Intel CPUs, subtly hinting about what your next purchase should be?

        2. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Re: This is old news ...

          A bit of a tangent, but I'm reminded that Intel reportedly uses Minix licence-free for its on-CPU management stuff. Which is entirely within the licence, same as not informing Tanenbaum about it: he apparently only found out about it by accident quite some time later, which may have been perfectly legal for Intel but portrayed them as a rather ill-mannered bunch.

    4. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: This is old news ...

      As long as the underlying principles of FLOSS are upheld who really cares who contributes, and whether they get paid to do it? It's beside the point.

      Regulators and the tax man should care. Open source is a loophole, where effectively a for profit company can run apprenticeship without remuneration - which in this country is illegal, but since it's called open source, then people suddenly stop thinking about consequences.

      Then someone e.g. spends a year developing a proof of concept, then big corporation steps in, adds some bogus "contribution" so the project meets their business needs and off they go. Basically took something that someone worked a year on, without having to pay anything for it, not even a minimum wage.

      That being said, there are people who work for free out of their own volition, typically they come from white privileged background, with middle class parents who pay their bills so they can code to their heart's content in their pad and then go to conferences and show off how great they are.

      The same issue was with apprenticeships - the rich kids were taking the best ones, because parents would pay for everything, while kids from impoverished background were missing out - that caused a situation where in tech jobs you have over representation of people from privileged white middle class background.

      Now that apprenticeships must pay at least the minimum wage, people who are not rich are more likely to afford to participate.

      Imagine how many more people could contribute to open source and how much more diverse the ecosystem would be if they were paid properly or even had big corporations paying royalties for their code.

      1. Adair Silver badge

        Re: This is old news ...

        'Open source is a loophole' - we might as well moan about air being freely available for 'bad people' to breathe. Don't blame FLOSS for the actions of bad actors in abusing the gift that is given.

        1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

          Re: This is old news ...

          Don't blame FLOSS for the actions of bad actors in abusing the gift that is given.

          It's like saying don't blame gun rights movements for mass shootings.

          Very ignorant thing to say and discarding the fact it is in human nature (maybe not a trait of all people, but certainly of those in position of power) to abuse what can be abused.

          1. Adair Silver badge

            Re: This is old news ...

            So what are you arguing as a viable alternative? If I release my code for use by others I must accept that it is accessible to 'people', not 'people who I approve of'.

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: This is old news ...

              Just stick a condition in the license. "This software may only be used by people of whom I approve."

              1. Adair Silver badge

                Re: This is old news ...

                At least your grammar is better than mine—that should do the trick. ;-)

      2. Lars
        Coat

        Re: This is old news ...

        @elsergiovolador

        Rich kids will always have an advantage in countries that refuse to provide good affordable education for all kids, or are too stupid to understand it.

        The USA is a very good example, sadly, and Britain is not much better either. And that starts early from lack of free preschool education.

        A good reminder of that:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7lO0TlwUZw

    5. jake Silver badge

      Re: This is old news ...

      "anyone with any interest in 'open source' software over the last twenty years (and more) knows full well that commercial interests have been interested in, and contributed significantly to, both the Linux kernel and the associated software all the way up the stack. "

      Some of us go back to DECUS, founded in 1961. (I got there a trifle later.)

      "As long as the underlying principles of FLOSS are upheld who really cares who contributes, and whether they get paid to do it?"

      Quite.

    6. keithpeter Silver badge

      Re: This is old news ...

      I'd like the OA to clarify the connection that he seemed to be making between number of people employed by $CORP that contribute to $PROJECT and control of $PROJECT by $CORP. That ties into the point made above by Adair about anyone being free to contribute. Could people in $CORP be using the open source nature of $PROJECT to actually prevent meddling from other elements in $CORP?

      Gnome & systemd: yes pretty much Red Hat

      Niche database thingies: yes open source or 'community edition' often set up to onboard users &c

      Other projects: not so sure about that

      I'd also like to know if the survey tools used to collect the data can measure the impact of contributions in some way. The size of a commit might be a rough proxy: a one line patch to one file *might* be less impact than hundreds of lines changed in dozens of files. Or perhaps the amount of discussion of a commit?

      Icon: watching the world go by

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    AWS!

    We all know why AWS put in the effort, they can tap the talented people to sort the software out, package it and then sell usage at $50/pico-second on their giant FOSS cork board of apps! AWS is just a mess of FOSS services strung together with megafast networking. I have no love for Google or Azure but at least MS make a stab at some cohesive inter-resource kit, not like AWS and their oil drenched tool box of busted implements.

    "Do it fast, do it enough times!" and you have time to re-run and correct, that's how it works in our place on AWS cloud! If it doesn't work first time, fix it, rent twice the kit and re-run it!

    1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: AWS!

      I do have to say that looking into the guts of AWS is a disturbing experience. Why does the AWS C++ SDK have Pulseaudio as a dependency?

      (I mean, I know why. It's because they don't give a damn about dependency hygiene.)

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A Microsoft-owned code repository contains a lot of Microsoft-owned software ? Woah !

    1. unimaginative
      Linux

      Even with regard to the the other big tech companies it will be heavily biased towards companies that have made a corporate decision to put all the open source projects on github.

      A lot of AWS's open source seems to be tools for using AWS. Only useful for people using AWS.

      Then there is the matter of licenses - not all open source is the same. Big tech heavily pushes MIT/BSD style licences that let them build proprietary software on top of it, and in many cases that is how it is usually used (e.g. Chromium is most common used for Chrome). They also spread a fair amount of FUD about GPL.

      Apple switched from Bash to zsh because they do not want to allow people to change the shell and Bash moved to GPL 3 - as you can install Bash on desktop MacOs there must be more to it than this, but it is a part of it.

      People who think open source = the Linxu kernel or that open source developers are all hobbyists are just ignorant. its depressing to see so many of them commenting here.

  7. MarcoV

    gitHUB

    Well, the real opensourcy's of course never submitted to Microsoft's Github EULA, and are elsewhere.:-)

    1. Rapier

      Re: gitHUB

      So that's entirely not true. I mean, it reads well, but it's literally not true in anyway. Are there some OSS developers that don't use GitHub? Sure. Sure that badge them the only true and real OSS developers? Hell no.

  8. Gene Cash Silver badge

    It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

    For example, the "Intel On Demand" crap mentioned in https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/20/linux_kernel_6_2_released/ where Intel can force you to pay to turn on sections of your CPU.

    Or crap like support for Apple's M1 CPUs. This doesn't appear to be sponsored by Apple though. Why are we giving them free stuff? Have YOU ever seen someone get free Apple hardware/software?

    1. VoiceOfTruth

      Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

      -> Have YOU ever seen someone get free Apple hardware/software?

      Ever used CUPS?

      -> Why are we giving them free stuff?

      You don't want somebody to use your software for free? Fine. Use a closed source licence.

      1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

        Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

        Ever used CUPS?

        Ever wondered why those of us who have used it for ages say the acronym comes from Can't Usually Print Stuff?

        [Admittedly IPP Everywhere makes life a lot easier.]

        1. VoiceOfTruth

          Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

          I agree that CUPS is not all that it promised to be all those years ago. Many of the same problems exist today with CUPS as they did years ago.

          I picked CUPS as an example because it is from Apple, it is open source, and it is widely used on Linux.

      2. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

        Or for that matter, Chrome.

        Chrome forked from Apple's WebKit engine about a decade ago. WebKit in turn was forked from the KDE browser's engine another decade or so before that. If you "didn't give them free stuff" you wouldn't have Chrome (or Edge, which was forked from Chrome!)

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

          And, again, whatever you think of Chrome/Chromium (I'm not a fan myself), you can't deny a lot of people use it.

      3. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

        > Ever used CUPS?

        Yes, and it shit the bed because one of it's fonts wasn't installed. Took 2 days to figure out, at which point I went back to lpr-ng.

    2. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

      You're argue is seriously flawed.

      You may of not noticed, but Apple don't use Linux, so developing a Kernel stack to run on their hardware is utterly irrelevant to them.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

        "Apple don't use Linux"

        But Apple do use BSD.

        "so developing a Kernel stack to run on their hardware is utterly irrelevant to them."

        Totally, utterly and completely wrong.

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

          What I think he meant is that Apple is not benefiting from the work the Linux M1 folks are doing, since they can't use that work because 1) you can't put Linux into BSD/Mach and 2) the work they are doing is GPL can't be put into something that's BSD(ish) licensed.

          There's also the fact that Apple already has their hardware working with their software, so unless the M1 Linux folks figured out a much better way of doing something even if 1) and 2) wasn't true they wouldn't have any use for it.

          I suppose the M1 team might run across a bug or two which if Apple or devs/users wouldn't have discovered them otherwise benefits them in a very small way.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

      No, but there are other good reasons.

      1 - They are contributing, for a simple reason identified by many others here: self interest. Not brilliantly, but they do.

      2 - (and this matter IMHO a LOT more) Apple apps support Open Standards. Sadly that doesn't extend to exporting in ODF formats (I filed a feedback report for this but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon), but interoperability with FOSS applications for imap, smtp, carddav, caldav, webdav and ldap is built in. No convertors needed, no plugins - it's all there. Out of the box. In macOS as well as iOS and derivatives.

      This means that you can easily combine a commercial grade desktop and mobile devices with FOSS backends and code without having to bend over backwards to achieve compatibility, and without worrying that the next upgrade nukes it as always happens with Microsoft products.

      Open Source and Apple go quite well together, and it's also safer. And cheaper, actually.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

        imap, smtp, carddav, caldav

        That's nice but it is annoying how far they take it. When Apple finally made iCloud "secure" last year (i.e. let end users control their own encryption so the limited amount of things that could be safely stored on iCloud without Apple being able to decrypt it was expanded to "almost everything") the reason why it was "almost everything" rather than "everything" is because they insisted that mail, contacts and calendar use standard protocols so they couldn't include them. I certainly wouldn't care if Apple added a secondary encrypted method to transit that data to the cloud so that it could be similarly protected, but I guess the people who care about standards would be or Apple wouldn't have carved out that exception.

        So the result is that now I have everything syncing to iCloud except mail, contacts and calendar... The email is separately backed up so I don't care about that, and contacts and calendar don't change too often and are covered by nightly iCloud backups (which is separate from syncing) so in practice it doesn't really matter. But it is annoying.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It's not WHO is contributing, it's WHAT they're contributing

          I think you're mixing data at rest with data in motion.

          Apple was pretty early in forcing all protocols to their SSL protected variants so data that travels to and from their Cloud thingie is protected. When it gets there, the data is then encrypted.

          However, I have to lob a caveat in here: yes, Apple offers to encrypt everything in a manner that only gives you access, but I have no evidence that that is actually the case. Apple has proven to be a heck of a lot more trustworthy than the rest out there, but that's no reason to become careless - if I were to use it I'd like to see evidence. If I store something I still add a Cryptomator layer to it so even a backdoor will get nada.

          That said, I don't use the iCloud for backup, the 1TB I have online would cost me a fortune with Apple :).

  9. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Commits

    Judging contributions by number of commits it's like judging code by number of lines.

    Come on.

    Most of the software these big corporations made billions off of were actually started by privileged people having time to work on them rather than slaving away in a factory 3 shifts a day.

    Open Source now has been taken over by big corporations as a way to avoid paying employment taxes and royalties.

    Why would you hire a team to develop something, if you can scrub github to find something that meets your need and just appropriate it?

    And tell the authors open source is good, so you don't have to pay a penny!

    The Open Source really needs regulation, but it will never happen as any lawmaker that will start looking into this, will get stuffed with brown envelopes to stop.

    1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      Re: Commits

      Judging contributions by number of commits it's like judging code by number of lines. Exactly. I can write a script which makes a bunch of automated, meaningless changes and consequent check-ins, if "code check-ins" is how you're measuring my "productivity". I'm sure some sandbaggers have done that.

      Most of the software these big corporations made billions off of were actually started by privileged people having time to work on them rather than slaving away in a factory 3 shifts a day. This is unsupported. We don't -- do we? -- have stats on how many contributors are moneyed elites and how many contributors are 3-shift-working factory-slaves.

      Why would you hire a team to develop something, if you can scrub github to find something that meets your need and just appropriate it? That's allowed by the GPL, if a few other conditions are adhered to by the "appropriators". A company still needs programmers to adapt and verify the "appropriated" software correctly does what the company needs it to do. Some companies (or individuals working for companies) don't do their due dilligence, and the result is security holes and/or crapware in commercial products.

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: Commits

      Judging contributions by number of commits it's like judging code by number of lines.

      Indeed - on my current current project, there are some who appear to crank up the commit frequency to 11 - they also appear to be the ones who create very fine grained JIRA tickets for their work. At least on the latter the manglement has had words and is getting that under control.

      A bit like the coding language survey, take it with a pinch of salt with regard to the relative positions

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Commits

        "Scrum" explicitly encourages such behaviour, as it makes your "velocity" look better and the graph smoother.

        Who cares about the impact on the product? It's the Process, and The Process is King.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Who cares about the impact on the product?

          The team. Every sprint they deliver meaningful value to "the product".

          The focus on delivery is the most important thing about Agile development. If you're not delivering real business value every sprint you are doing it wrong.

          (Just because most people do Agile wrong doesn't make Agile bad, just difficult.)

        2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Commits

          If you're measuring velocity by commits, You're Doing It Wrong.

          And if you're judging a team's performance by velocity, You're Doing It Wrong.

          The methodology can't prevent people from applying it incorrectly.

  10. Lars
    Coat

    Well well

    A few comments.

    People who have a hobby most often have a job too, that goes also for individuals who find it fun to take part in open source projects like Linux.

    There are for sure more such individuals than there are companies taking part.

    All those companies mentioned are big Linux users, or live on Linux like Red Hat, or depend on Linux like say Intel.

    Linux is number one on supercomputers, in the cloud, and on the web.

    Those companies take part because they gain from it, and they depend on it, love for open source is hardly the strongest motivation.

    And all this is of course very old knowledge.

    And I believe it would be hard to find a person interested in IT who think Linux and open source software is made by people living in their parents' basement. No I don't think so.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Well well

      "And I believe it would be hard to find a person interested in IT who think Linux and open source software is made by people living in their parents' basement."

      Not hard at all. There usually seem to be a few here.

      1. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: Well well

        Speak for yourself.

  11. GBE

    RedHat is IBM

    The company found that Microsoft and Google were neck-and-neck for the top spot. Red Hat is in third place, followed by Intel, then AWS, just ahead of IBM.

    RedHat has been part of IBM for ages, hasn't it?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RedHat is IBM

      IBM completed the financial acquisition of Red Hat in Summer 2019.

      Some Red Hat people have said that their internal product and R&D engineering operations were not being affected by the acquisition. No idea if that's still the case.

      If it is, then it probably makes some sense to consider code commits by Red Hat and IBM as separate efforts, at least for now.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RedHat is IBM

      Legally it is, yes. In terms of day-to-day operations, it is much more like a partnership. There's not much interaction between the 2 at the engineering level. So RH commits serve only RH's goals, and similarly for IBM.

  12. CatWithChainsaw

    This Author

    He really annoys me with his love letters to Microsoft.

  13. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Wow the anti Microsoft posts are out in force on here today. I am not a Microsoft fan boy (I have Linux Mint on my PC and don't own an Xbox, and don't particularly like using Windows unless there is no other option) and MS definitely have been shitty back in the past not only with there treatment of FOSS / Linux but with the way they handled closed source software from competitors too, sometime doing outright illegal practices.

    But I agree with the author that recently they have done a lot for FOSS, that 20 years ago you would have thought impossible. After all they are a business and they realize the 'war' with Linux at least in some areas is just lost now. Take for instance web hosting, I mean how many of the top 100 website are running on Windows servers compared to ones on Linux? I bet you would be hard pressed to find any in the top 100 running on Windows other than Microsoft own ones. And since MS is now in the cloud business they need Linux to be able to remain competitive with AWS, Google Cloud etc as if Windows was the only OS they offered on Azure it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular.

    1. emfiliane

      The author of the piece knows the audience; those lines were quite obviously trolling. And some of the more rabid MS-haters bit, because they simply cannot help themselves. It wouldn't be El Reg without its stalwarts and Usenet sensibility.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        It is very amusing to read articles like this and see the Microsoft haters foaming at the mouth in the comments.

        Rich source of comedy!

        1. jake Silver badge

          Foaming?

          Please show me an example of this so-called "foaming".

  14. Doctor Evil

    Not bloody likely!

    So, Mr. Vaughan-Nichols, you think Microsoft have changed their spots, do you? Tell me, what's this all about, then?

    Microsoft is checking everyone's bags for unsupported Office installs

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/21/microsoft_office_count_update/

    No, it's not my dad's Microsoft, because I'm old enough to be your dad and I was writing programs on punch cards before there was a Microsoft.

  15. xyz Silver badge

    My takeaway from all this is...

    Don't mention Linux on El Reg. Blimey.

    I'm just hoping ChatGPT and Bin Gai have a conversation and come up with a new OS.

    1. Lars
      Happy

      Re: My takeaway from all this is...

      @xyz

      In my opinion ElReg has never reported on Linux as well as these days before.

      And I like it and I think there are good reason for it too.

      And it's like with cars and countries, people will always have different opinions and favourites and arguing and sharing opinions is just a good thing, mostly.

  16. mevets

    The quality of virtue is not strained either.

    "...many of you still continue to think Microsoft is the Evil Empire..."

    Lets flip that:

    " a few of you still don't know how truly awful Microsoft was, and most likely is..."

    Until a measure of what evil vs virtuous becomes available, we have another stat.

    MicroSoft applied illicit measures which set the software industry back by 20 to 30 years.

    So, by 2040, assuming the trough ended with Balmer, we can set Microsoft to neutral.

    Providing they don't continue with their assholery, which I think they already breach a dozen times since End Of Balmer.

  17. Binraider Silver badge

    Who writes open source? Hmm.

    I look after some tools that have been developed within my employer and in international standards for the last 40 years. There is no international standard reference implementation, which is a shame.

    There are commercial implementations, that are, for anyone informed on the standards frankly, a bit crap. The whizzy commercial gui looks the part but the physics it’s meant to be simulating are easily broken. Anyone who has tried writing an implementation of their own will quickly realise the limitations of the commercial offerings.

    Selling our own tools would be possible, though the long and somewhat unreliable tool chain (What happens when .net and fortran are involved) do not lend themselves to a clean install-and-run product. We have written other implementations in other tool chains, python, even Java.

    The list of potential users globally is pretty small, maybe 10 peeps or so per UK-sized country. I’d quite like to open source these models. trouble is, what’s in it for the company to do so? Or anyone else maintaining similar code for similar reasons.

    Open sourcing it with our name on it, but then not properly maintaining it is as much of a liability as trying to flog it commercially to a mega niche audience.

    If I write an implementation off the books, I could technically release that; though not without the employment contract police getting uppity about the IP being created while I’m in their employ; therefore not mine to Set the license terms on. And so the cycle continues.

  18. Rapier

    I write open source software

    That's pretty much all I do. Everything I release had the most open license possible because it should be available to everyone - not just the people who think like I do. See, I work for a university and I'm funded also entirely by NSF grants. That's taxpayer money so, in my view, it should be available to all taxpayers without restriction.

    As for commercial companies like MS contributing OSS, I'm all for that. Why wouldn't I be? They came around to *my* way of thinking. I can review their code for stupidity and, if found, have them correct it. That's why I have no problem with MS contributing to the kernel. Things that would break the underlying concepts of what Linux is supposed to be would be rejected out of hand. There are a whole lot of eyes looking at it after all. In all seriousness, ink more concerned about Google because I have literally been in the room when they pushed back against useful changes to the stack because it could possible cause problems with their usage patterns. I'm taking specifically about the work I did to get RFC 4898 incorporated into the TCP stack. Microsoft was way more open to it and actually implemented it since Vista. Google decided against it because in their infrastructure it might cause one additional cache miss. So Google killed it dead and damaged what could have been years of functional and useful TCP analysis and tools.

  19. Paul Floyd

    Not all big corps contribute

    My experience is that Apple is conspicuous by their absence in opensource projects. Sure, they contribut to LLVM, but I feel they prefer to take than to give.

    Also IMO ARM doesn't pull their own weight.

    1. Binraider Silver badge

      Re: Not all big corps contribute

      Yeah, they backed off working on CUPS too. Which, despite complaints, I personally find immensely useful.

      Contributions to Darwin have somewhat dried up beyond the initial phases of development that lead into OS X.

    2. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: Not all big corps contribute

      Apple have a past of being antithetical to open source, back in the late 80s/early 90s, especially anything that might be cross platform.

  20. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Services have replaced licences in the business model

    The main reason for the large scale adoption of open source by large IT companies is the bottom line. Once they moved from selling products to selling services (and this applies as much to RedHat as it does to AWS) they didn't need to worry about cannibalising licence revenues because these would be replaced by juicier regular service fees. And, once the data has migrated, you can never leave. This means that they can continue to contribute to open source and extracting more surplus value than they actually provide. In a sense, open source has given them the keys to lock all our data away,

    1. Lars
      Linux

      Re: Services have replaced licences in the business model

      @Charlie Clark

      On the main reason for the large scale adoption of open source, like Linux.

      One main reason is simply that it's better than any alternative.

      Microsoft spent years and millions trying to compete on super computing but eventually had to give up (as far as I can see) and the top500 are all Linux since several years.

      Also Apple had a loud but short try many years ago.

      The worlds stock exchange run Linux because they need the speed. NY had to get rid of MS just for that reason, the speed not the price.

      Google started off with 6 or was 7 used hardware and put Linux on them. Today they have more than a million processors running Linux and they would never be able to do the same with MS with the same hardware (even if the OS was free).

      And that goes for similar like Facebook, Twitter, ebay, Alibaba and so forth.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Services have replaced licences in the business model

        That's a post hoc justification and covers mainly the customer perspective, which is not what the article is really about and frankly doesn't say very much. Lots of companies have committed billions to making Linux a good server OS that will run on a huge variety of platforms, though maybe IBM should get some credit for its early work.

        Financial firms will spunk huge amounts on anything that makes things the tiniest bit faster: if Corning brings out some new fibre optic cable with go faster stripes, they'll have it. FPGA to make the network or database faster? Certainly, sir? How many would sir like?

        Investments over the last 10 years by the big corporations have evolved around making their stack shinier. The libraries are now full of publications trumpeting the benefits (and glossing over the costs) of handing over your data and processing to another company, which shows how the software-marketing industry (which owns a large part of the US tertiary educational system) did its job well. And I have no problem with Microsoft making improvements to Linux so that Azure containers are more profitable. But we've gone way beyond the "enlightened self-interest" bit. When it comes to open source contributions from these companies, I'd be looking beyond their Linux work. Google still continues to set an example by being actively involved in projects that have no direct upside for them, but the contributions elsewhere in machine learning, systems management and instrumentation are all impressive and to a certain degree indicative of a bottom up culture. Now, watch those projects get culled as the beancounters regain control.

  21. that one in the corner Silver badge

    Are commit numbers really of any interest to the big wide World?

    According to the article, the study and everything that draws conclusions from it is based upon one single metric drawn from one single source: commits into Github.

    To start, we all know Linux isn't hosted on Github, so nothing in the study allows you to draw any conclusions on that. Yes, lots of Linux work *is* done by employees of Red Hat and even the dreaded Microsoft, we all know this, but nothing in *this* survey is relevant to that discussion.

    What is totally ignored is: how much of this material being committed is actually of any use to anyone? Do we actually *care* if Microsoft's name is attached to ten thousand repos if only one percent of those are ever actually compiled by anyone other than the author? Is it one percent? I have no idea and neither does this survey.

    Companies like Microsoft, Amazon et al write some interesting code. They are also in the business of trumpeting to the world that they are good, concerned citizens and just look how much they give away for free. Github has some interesting code, it also has an enormous pile of half-finished homework (aka Microsoft experimental or "research" projects) and even junk pushed there just to be able to put a pile of URLs onto CVs.

    Even if you are generous enough to assume that the numbers found on Github can be extrapolated to apply to every other set of repositories on the planet, you can not say one single word about how important any of it is without knowing how much of it is actually *used* by anyone. Back to Linux again, we can make a pretty good guess at how much of their commit history is relevant to the world: use any of the counts of how many Linux boxes are out there (and add however large a punch of salt you usually apply to *those* surveys).

    The primary result of this survey is - to create a quick survey that pulls down one set of numbers, sorts it by three columns and counts the duplicates, makes no attempt to do any interesting analysis that would take any effort to design and implement (was this just an exercise by someone just starting to learn Google Big Query?).

    As for the main thrust of the piece: OSS as your day job is old hat - the names associated with the origins of open source are Universities, research labs like Lawrence Livermore or CERN, and groups like DECUS, most of which was work they were being paid to do. The troglodyte coder idea comes from the media in the first place, exaggerating the worst stories from the days of the Hacker's Dictionary, with no little help from people like Microsoft in their Halloween email days.

    1. drankinatty

      Re: Are commit numbers really of any interest to the big wide World?

      I think you have hit the nail on the head from the numbers standpoint. The whole premise of "who contributes the most" on GitHub is amorphous. Attributing the number of commits to someone and saying they win doesn't really expose any new or exiting fact about open-source.

      It's just numbers, e.g. "Google is leading the way with 5,757 compared to Microsoft's 5,513 and Red Hat's 3,656...." -- well Duh... the more manhours you dedicate to code on GitHub, the more commits you are likely to have. Nothing about what projects benefit or whether the commits are serving a narrow interest of the payor, etc..

      The broader message is yes, leading tech companies do contribute, heavily, to open-source projects -- good. And when then devote their efforts to bettering core libraries or toolkits used by all (e.g. openssl/openssh, etc..), all ships are raised. If the effort is devoted to making a library easier to hook for usage or personal information -- then not good.

      The point the article dismisses is those talented and dedicated individuals that don't have corporate interest in their projects, or that work on educations projects that aren't monetized, deserve the same recognition for making open-source what it is today.

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