Don't bore us, get to the Horus: Elementary OS 7 is here and looking good Elementary OS 7, codenamed "Horus" and based on Ubuntu 22.04.1, is here at last after a longer than usual delay. Elementary Inc. has weathered some business problems over the last year. Co-founder Cassidy James Blaede quit, later to join Endless OS, and as co-owner, this appears to have put the company and its sole surviving …
[Author here]
> no main hierarchical menu?
Correct.
You search for them or you pin them to the dock.
I think I could live with that, but no menu bars is the thing for me.
But I am reliably informed from multiple sources that 21st century folks do not think in hierarchies, like 20th century old timers, and even the concept causes confusion.
https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems
This bugs me no end, helping people out with computery stuff and they just save files in whatever directory the save dialog defaults to. Then they locate the files by searching for them. Makes no sense to me, I have structures and know exactly where all my files are.
Vendors don't help here - some software save dialogs will always default to their own document subdirectory, which helps. But others will go to the last location used, even if it was set by another program, so we end up with design files in the document directory last used by the spreadsheet program.
I agree with Shade here: I know where I put things because they're categorised - and replicated one layer down, for example, in project directories.
The whole thing of searching for a file? Particularly an application file? To this old C20th fart, that's just wrong. Even more wrong when I have to remember that the Document Viewer is called 'evince'...
I think the rot started with music player apps. They are usually totally focused on 'songs' just like in the 45rpm days when that was the only way to search and play. Then came LPs followed by the 'concept' album which played into the classical concept of symphonies.
Us old timers think of our music that way and our LP & CD collections are, much like books, ordered by composer/band and album. That's the way I ripped them to MP3 and the hierachical file structure mirrors that. I really don't want to compile a playlist to put a Beethoven Symphony back together. But the young, oh the young. Still jealous of 'em though.
Yes, a thousand times yes! I want two things from a music player: either play a complete album all the way through and then stop, or play randomly from the whole collection. Possibly excluding classical music; that should always be in the right order.
My rips are carefully organised by band or composer, then by album title. But ripping programs tend to decide that artists are the definitive descriptor so if I'm not careful I can find one album rips into two or more directories because some tracks have more than one artist...
Makes no sense to me, I have structures and know exactly where all my files are.
Indeed. And then I'm not even going to argue it might be helpful with regard to making back ups for example.
Then again, I suppose that is not needed anymore nowadays, since systems are much more stable compared to my first one (vic20)...
It's realistic for most people. You've seen a typical non IT bod's computer, right? Every damn thing is on the desktop because that's about all they know. It might help them to learn our ways but it shouldn't be compulsory. Plus, storage available in a modern computer is sodding huge. Rivalling the size of the web when I first got connected. Therefore, give them a search.
Come to that, it's much easier to find my photos using the search in Darktable too.
But I am reliably informed from multiple sources that 21st century folks do not think in hierarchies, like 20th century old timers, and even the concept causes confusion.
Cultural stupidity (or laziness) rulez the day! Fucking great!
Now git yer lazy brain-dead asses offa my lawn, godammit! <mumble>,<grumble> <...>
> 21st century folks do not think in hierarchies
Which somewhat explains when you see graphical desktops littered with icons, with no chance of visually finding what you actually need. No choice but to run a search.
I apparently qualify as "old timer", since I still say "directory" and "sub directory" rather than "folder" or "My Desktop", and still make some effort to file things away in a directory hierarchy rather than one big flat cluttered "folder".
I use the Vivaldi browser, and a few updates ago I noticed that the bookmarking mechanism had changed. When you clicked on the little icon in the address bar, there was no dialog to ask you where you wanted to put it. The bookmark was just instantly added to the same place in the heirarchy where the last bookmark had been inserted.
It turns out that you have to set a special flag (not accessible in the settings menu) to bring the bookmark dialog back.
On the other hand, not everything fits into a tree, does it? I've got a nice photo of my horse and my rider's dog greeting each other. It's in 2021 / June / 23 or something similar. I don't want to create a separate album for horses / dogs / both / either and have to maintain that. Now there's the technology to find 'horse+dog' photos it can stay where it is and I don't need to remember the date it was on.
Similarly, decades ago, I used to file code snippets in one place, interesting quotes in another, links in another. About 20 years ago I realized I could just paste it all into a giant online text-based diary and let emacs search find it (with a single file) or grep over multiple files.
To be honest, half the time we were all dividing stuff up into folders because the filesystems of yesteryear couldn't cope with 'massive bucket of stuff' --- rather than for our own convenience.
Well, the tidy approach would be some sort of tagging file system: "here is my wonderful photo.jpg" tags: horse, dog.
There are systems out there; I played with one for Linux which generated hidden metadata per object. I suspect a faster way would be to maintain a central database somewhere... but in either case the snag is that if you have to categorise tens of items, it's a pain. If you have to categorise tens of thousands, you really need a librarian. Perhaps there's a real use for Artificial Stupidity: a local AI that can recognise with a reasonable degree of accuracy what is in a picture? (heh: category portraits, overexposed...)
(Not quite sure how this works with other files, though...)
It was using DOS that made directories seem like the natural way of the world to me.. How many times have I navigated to a directory by typing cd\name or whatever, usually followed by typing dir or a program name? Thousands of times, I'm sure. Directories were beaten into me.
This may have changed me at a formative age, I may be biased. It is because of this possible bias in me that I won't immediately condemn the 'bucket' approach without first giving it some thought.
[Author here]
> You search for them [in a hierarchical file system]
Noting your addition here.
No, *you* do *not* search for them in a hierarchical FS. You search for them using the Applications control at top left which also has a magnifying glass icon, which for most people now indicates searching rather than magnifying.
You type Alt+Space (which is in the same location as the Mac's Cmd+Space) and you type the first few letters, and it just appears, like on macOS.
You do not go spelunking in the filesystem, no. And since Elementary runs on Flatpaks, you won't find much if you do.
It's like a weird hybrid of macOS and iOS, with the bits I personally like left out.
Like macOS' Spotlight and Dock, minus the Dock's customisability (mine lives on the left, vertically), or Unity's handy additions (more indicators if you have more than 1 window open). And the desktop is without a menu bar (like iOS).
It's minimal, it's pretty, but I find it a bit limiting and frustrating. As I do Apple iDevices. I like Macs, but Elementary doesn't implement a lot of what I like about Macs. Instead they implement the limited nature of iOS and iPadOS, which I personally find restrictive.
But they implement the shiny bits liked by millions, so hey, it sells. Good for them.
I don't see that as a problem IF all files are held within a container but as we know, people throw some in downloads, some of the desktop, some in docusments, I've even had to teach people not to save personal docs in the "Program Files" folders, they somehow managed to get them in their despite the sort of admin warnings you get if you try that sort of thing! Let alone, god forbid, they managed lose files they've saved in the hidden personal system folders. You get one folder, you can do what you like inside that, create folders or not, i don't care but you're not allowed outside that "bucket".
I run elementaryOS on a restomodded iMac G4 (original housing, but the dome contains an AMD-powered mini-PC), and my reaction on finishing installing Horus was, "That's it?" Everything feels identical--maybe a little more streamlined--compared to Jólnir, with the exception that now you can install packages from Jammy Debian repos and PPAs, which makes the upgrade worth the price of admission.
Of course, not everyone cares for Debian repos, and for them I have great news--Arch builds of all the Pantheon packages are up on the official repos, and Pantheon running on Arch is a truly glorious experience.
Regarding the design being too simplistic for power users--as someone who spends 90% of his time with at least two terminals open, I consider Pantheon a top-tier environment for folks who want their desktop to be militantly free of distractions. Oh, plus they support tiling.
"Everything feels identical--maybe a little more streamlined--compared to Jólnir, with the exception that now you can install packages from Jammy Debian repos and PPAs, which makes the upgrade worth the price of admission."
What, no pointless UI downgrades? Choice of repository and package manager? Shaking my head... That's just not how it's done these days.
> the Alt+Space keystroke to search for apps
Alt-Space?? Isn't that taken? "In Microsoft Windows, Alt + spacebar opens the window menu of the currently-opened program. With this window, you can move, size, minimize, maximize, and close the window." This has been true at LEAST since Win3.1, so probably Win2. Or Win1? I see it still does that in Win11? 8+ generations and three decades of the #1 most-sold O/S ought to set a pattern.
I know about the Win11 case because I see other folks are complaining that FireFox (via PowerToys), Kdenlive, and apparently 53 other apps use it (tho many let it call the Windows window menu under multiple names).
https://defkey.com/what-means/alt-space
And similar to Apple Search? Isn't that Command-Spacebar ? Which may map to Ctrl or Win on a PC-labeled keyboard?
I wish I had my ANY KEY back. I want to hit ANY key.
[Author here]
> And similar to Apple Search? Isn't that Command-Spacebar ? Which may map to Ctrl or Win on a PC-labeled keyboard?
Command is Super on xNix, which is "the Windows key" on MS-branding-compliant kit.
But Haiku, GNUstep and the Hello System all do this too. I personally dislike it, but apparently, for many people, they remember the physical location of the key, not the function. Puzzling to me -- my msucle memory is by functional role, not what is next to the spacebar -- but hey.
Yes, I agree with you. I do not like the way Elementary simply does not implement things that are givens on Windows, or macOS, or other Linuxes.
But I give them this credit: they implement a minimal set of what they want, it looks good and it's very clean and consistent, and that seems to be enough to keep a lot of people happy. This is what I tried to spell out: if you have an existing way of working, existing muscle memory, then this environment won't work well for you and isn't adaptable or customisable to make it so.
[Author here]
> I see no reason to change.
That sounds entirely reasonable. It's not for everyone.
What I am finding is that the way many people use computers these days is nothing like how I do, and also, for some people, especially younger ones than my 55Y, appearance is really important.
(It's not for me, but only up to a degree. For instance, KDE is to me not merely not pleasing to look at, but actually unpleasant. I find their themes, skins and fonts really ugly. As in distressingly ugly. Red Hat's Bluecurve theme from late in the Red Hat Linux era, before RHEL and Fedora, were the only things to make KDE look _good_.)
Elementary implements some kind of ultra-minimalist set of functionality and its themes are beautiful in a restrained, elegant sort of way.
If someone could get on with ChromeOS, then Elementary will probably well work for them, and it will do more locally. And I strongly suspect that, as I say repeatedly, there are more ChromeOS users than all other desktop Linux distros put together. Possibly by an order of magnitude, if we exclude China.
@Liam Proven
Now that I've got around to ordering a mSATA SSD for the Sony VAIO P, all I've got to do is get around to performing micro-laptop surgery (making sure to not have any spare scews left afterwards lol) to install it, then trying out this OS, after I've tried Haiku first... and that'll be after I've removed the 1.8" HD, connected that via a ZIF to SATA converter, then connected that to a 2.5" SATA to USB converter, and backed up the old Windows 7 image to the beast PC - I wonder why it's taken me this long? The VAIO P is the best possible device for reading things on the move, and for all sorts of other tasks. While the Integral mSATA is winging it's way to me, I've got a lot of hardware RAID mirroring of Western Digital Blacks and data shifting to do, because I don't yet trust SSDs; for the VAIO P, I don't really have much choice, because any mechanical disk will simply keep it sloooowww.... (but not glacial) My only worry is whether the mSATA to ZIF converter will fit inside the VAIO P, with the mSATA SSD. I didn't buy the Samsung 860 mSATA which I preferred, because it might be too big for the mSATA to ZIF converter. There were some reports about the the ZIF ribbon cable's tendency to easily fall out of the converter's ZIF cable connector slot, which rather defeats the other reason for converting to SSD. Gaffa tape. It's the solution for nearly all of life's problems. If you haven't done this already yourself to your VAIO P, the ZIF>mSATA converter I'm going to try (arrives next week) is marked "M819" on fleabay (£5) - I seem to recall seeing a Youtuber using that particular converter to upgrade his. Are SSDs uogrades? TBH not yet IMHO, in terms of longevity for the same price of Western Digital Blacks, which in my experience last about a decade or more of near constant punishment.
> then trying out this OS
You won't be able to. The Vaio P is a 32-bit Atom. There's no 32-bit version of Elementary; like any other Ubuntu remix, it's 64-bit only.
I am impressed by your transplant plans! I think I'd just use a CF card, myself. o_O
TinyXP is working fairly well on mine, _pace_ some limits. (E.g. the Intel Poulsbo drivers seem to override Windows' font-size settings.)
The 2nd OS is currently Raspberry Pi Desktop, the latest version, with the go-faster tweaks I described here:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/improve_linux_performance/
It works but it's not quick.
My plan is to try Haiku soon. I unpacked the Vaio over the weekend but as of yet I have no internet at my new home.
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@Liam Proven
> You won't be able to. The Vaio P is a 32-bit Atom. There's no 32-bit version of Elementary; like any other Ubuntu remix, it's 64-bit only.
---->> So much for bringing old but still functioning PC hardware back into use with thin, light and frothy OSs, which Ubuntu isn't either :(
> I think I'd just use a CF card, myself. o_O
---->> I used a IDE>CF converter to do that many years ago on a Pentium 90 laptop - it extended battery life by about 30%, and the laptop became quite spritely, also wonderfuly silent. Longevity is the worry with CFs, because of the many read/writes when used in computers; cameras don't thrash them to death as swiftly with such rabid R/W rates, and of course SSDs have better built-in mitigations for memory R/W failures over time.I didn't need a massive mSATA (240gb Integral mSATA is an upgrade to it's existing 80gb HDD), because if I run short of space, the Sony VAIO P has so many USB ports for micro USB drives which can simply be safely left plugged in, if small enough.
> TinyXP is working fairly well on mine, _pace_ some limits. (E.g. the Intel Poulsbo drivers seem to override Windows' font-size settings.)
The 2nd OS is currently Raspberry Pi Desktop, the latest version, with the go-faster tweaks I described here:
https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/improve_linux_performance/
It works but it's not quick.
---->> Ver ver interesting indeed! I might try TinyXP. Must say I'm looking forward to swapping VAIO P OSs by simply writing an .ISO to the mSATA.
>I unpacked the Vaio over the weekend but as of yet I have no internet at my new home.
---->> Are you in a cellular dead zone? The aerials of 4G routers are better than that of most phones, might be worth a try? I use mine on those rare occasions when the fibre connection borks. Plus the VAIO P has a SIM slot, which works with GiffGaff.
> My plan is to try Haiku soon.
---->> You might beat me to it! The online massive river souk operated by ferocious single-breasted warror women has intimidated Royal Mail into delivering this morning an Integral mSATA I ordered less than two days ago... I'm waiting for the other items to arrive, before I can schedule VAIO P surgery. They weren't kidding about the "m" in mSATA, it's tiny. Hopefully tiny enough. If the first ZIF>mSATA converter and mSATA card combination is too big for the available tiny space, I'll have to keep trying with various others. While I'm at this upgrade, I'm considering buying a third battery for the VAIO P I've just spotted at an absurdly low price, but it'd be the first non-original I've bought for it, and I'm nervous of how the VAIO P would react. The oldest original charges to 90% capacity, and I worry that it could soon develop a fault bad enough to put the motherboard into protection sleep mode, which it might not ever not wake from, as has happened with another of my laptops - no amount of CMOS clearing or long discharge by removal of CR2032 battery (or replacement) would revive it. I shudder trying to imagine how miniscule Sony VAIO P motherboard jumpers might be. I doubt there's a CR2032 in there... didn't see one when I was putting a ribbon cable back into position to connect the screen, after it was dislodged by sticking to a tiny blob of hot glue which had dripped off from somewhere else inside the VAIO, the source of which I couldn't determine - there are no fans, the hot glue must have got too hot at some point, causing it to soften melt and drip to near the cable with the subsequent jostly carriage in my jacket pocket, which I have asked my tailor to enlarge and add dual-sidedd lockable zips to.
My long game cunningly posting endlessly on this widely read forum is, of course, to drive up demand for the Sony VAIO P and increase it's resale price in case I ever sell mine (Never! From my cold dead hands!) and also draw attention to the fact that such small form factor PCs are and would be useful to large numbers of people, should manufacturers got their fingers out to make modern versions of the same size or preferably smaller, perhaps even as small as the Psion Series 5mx, featuring keyboards as excellent - I'm pretty sure suitably electrickeried shrunken innards could be stuffed into that! E-ink screen option or switching for long battery life, would be nice. Otherwise it's a choice between a whole bunch of similarly sized devices running horrible increasingly intrusive OSs intended primarily for consumption and the increase thereof, not creation, which is fiddly to do if not nigh on impossible on Android and iOS. I find the entire situation wildly exasperating tbh. Well, at least my operating theatre is now ready...
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BTW Haiku wouldn't install! antiX is a lot faster than 32-bit Mint on my newly upgraded with SSD Sony VAIO P - the SSD (240gb Integral mSATA) upgrade went painfully: One screw was almost completely stuck - galvanic corrosion probably, and the plastics are old and very delicate, therefore I broke a tiny tab (inconsquential, near the battery, which I could repair by filing, cutting and sanding an impossibly small shape to fit using superglue + very fine baking soda, but who has the time?), then discovered that the ZIF cable was completely stuck in the drive's ZIF connector clasp (after removing umpteen tiny screws to get at the tiny 1.8 inch hard drive [kept dropping the screws on the busy floor... best to keep a neodymium magnet handy, to seek out those screws which are actually magnetic, or better still don't drop them on the floor in the first place. I'm deffo not cut out to be a surgeon - it's worrying that there are two screws left over after reassembly. I don't think they're fatal omissions, will try again to determine their exact original function]), and because the design of the unit is fanless, over the years heat had baked the ZIF hard drive connector clasp very brittle, and that broke too - I may still attempt to save Sony's original cut-down Vista build via drive cloning, after pressing a ZIF cable against the connector using two plectrums either side of the hard drive and tiny cable, using a small G-clamp... One thing to be aware of, is that the old version ZIF cables are thinner, therefore you must apply a layer of heat-resistant Kapton tape on the non-conducting side of the Sony ZIF cable connector, to make Sony's old and proprietary ZIF cable thick enough for the new ZIF to mSATA converter's ZIF cable's clamp to operate, otherwise no drive will be detected. Connector secured... after trying and failing installing every Windows 7 version old and new (I have licenses for both 7 Home Premium and Pro - all versions could partition, but screen-freeze crashed on or before the commencement of formatting. I have no idea why this was. Aside from boot order, there are no hard drive options in Sony's tiny BIOS), and failing miserably to install TinyXP... Easy2USB saved my bacon! The full version of Windows XP Professional booted within 10 seconds! But no WiFi (drivers) and no sound - you (sometimes, depending on model) only retain sound if you downgrade from the original version of Vista from Sony, the recovery partition of which is on the now damaged ZIF drive. So I thought I'd try the full fat version of the OS it originally shipped with: Windows Vista Business, and that also works! I have no idea if it'll activate yet, used the serial provided in the battery compartment. Vista takes three times as long as XP Pro's sub-10 seconds to load. I have no idea how long Vista originally took to boot up when the Sony had a hard drive, because I bought it post Windows 7 upgrade. Instant-on boots within 10 seconds, for all the good that does - it's far less useful than XP Pro, and I'm in the process of installing all the Vista drivers, so that I can upgrade it to Windows 7... but if I can't and Vista is slow (so far so good on that front: snappy in operation), a dual boot of antiX and XP Pro could do for some of my on-the-go tiny computing needs, plus a Win10 on a USB stick for newer/alternative browser functionality? There must exist a lighter Linux than antiX, which has WiFi, Firefox, LibreOffice and sound for my VAIO P! If Windows 7 Home Premium (after upgrading) is no slower than Vista (which looks speedy in use thanks to the SSD, considering the puny Atom CPU, on a big monitor via the Sony port replicator, which also has ethernet. But as before, Youtube will barely play audio [stutters sound and video]), that may be a keeper, or antiX + Win 7, dual boot... or XP Pro + Win 7 dual boot with antiX USB permanently optioned by one of it's two USB ports, via a tiny Verbatim USB thumb drive. I may attempt a tri-boot. Now I'm waiting for double sided heat-resitant sticky foam tape to arrive, so that I can secure the mSATA converter, to enable use of my Sony VAIO P on the road again. I'd used some other sort of sticky pad, which is making for a messy removal - careful application of isopropyl alcohol will dissolve the adhesive, ready for the proper stuff. The error messages were too tiny to read on the 8 inch 1600 X 768 screen, and this entire process was a blur. It it hadn't worked, I would have sourced another slim-profile ZIF drive, or used one of it's two USB ports for a Live OS and the other for storage, in addition to it's integral SD card and Sony memory card readers... but that would gave been slow. I do wish Sony would make new netbooks in a similar size or smaller, they clearly know a thing or two about attractive and functional design, hampered in this case by the puny Atom CPU. Pity about Haiku - if you get it running on your VAIO P, please do detail your solution somewhere.
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