Smart ovens do really dumb stuff to check for Wi-Fi This just in: smart appliances are still not a bright idea for those who care about privacy. The latest word on the subject comes from Stephan van Rooij, a software architect with Smartersoft BV in the Netherlands and a Microsoft MVP in security. Van Rooij is the owner of two AEG smart appliances – the AEG Built In …
Ditto my microwave oven, which was chosen on it cheepness from Argos about 20 years ago. It has two dials, one sets the power level and the other is the mechanical timer that turns it off when it runs down.
It also gives a satisfying clockwork type “ding” when it has finished, rather than the soul penetrating beeep…Beeeep….BEEEEEP!
They play a little ridiculously long tune on the beeper when they are finished
FTFY
It's like they had a competition in the programming dept. at how long a tune they could fit into the available memory.
You can turn it off on mine - but then you get no sounds at all. No beeps when you're setting it going. No confirmation it's started.
Indeed, I bought a Samsung machine last year, and they appear to have changed it so that you can turn off the "finished" tune, but all the other loud high-pitched tunes and beeps are always on with no way to disable them.
My theory is that they got feedback about the "all sounds either on or off" on previous models, that customers wanted to be able to turn on/off just the end music. So that's what the managers said to do - make it so that only the end music could be turned off and on.
Our LG also plays a happy "finished" tune and the children sing along, but the tune is only about 10s long and isn't repeated, so it's not terribly annoying.
Apparently, the tuneful ability also allows the machine to "sing" down a phone line to tell the service department what's wrong with it, but we've not yet had to try that feature out and I suspect that with the machine now being at least 10 years old, the service department's probably forgotten all about the system. Reminds me of "V GER" in that Star Trek movie...
M.
I used to like the Samsung tune because I knew what it meant and didn't need to investigate which appliance wanted my attention.
However I echo the "don't buy Samsung" comment because it stopped working after about 5 years and every repair person that I phoned simply said "buy something else" as soon as I told them the brand.
Gotta echo that. Our washer died after a year - on investigation the door lock.. which is at mains voltage for some insane reason, and also apparently unfused, had failed and caused the cable leading to it to burn away it's sleeving all the way from the lock to the control board.
That cable runs right next to the outer case.. needless to say when I was offered a replacement I was unlwillimg to have another one. They gave me half my money back, which on reflection wasn't enough for a year old device.
"Do not buy a Samsung device!!"
FTFY
Don't know if they have them in Europe, but our washer and dryer are Speed Queen commercial units. Great little beasts. These are what you find in American laundromats, and they'll take a beating for 10 years or more as laundromat machines. I expect ours will still be washing clothes long after the wife and I no longer need clothes in our shared urn.
Nagging, beeping microwaves are my pet peeve (also applies to other kit, including cars' seat belt alerts*). My own microwave is a cheap mechanical one making a single "Bing" too, and I plan to keep it as long as possible. I am not (yet) senile enough to need constant reminding that I've put something in the microwave 2 minutes ago and it might be ready by now.
* My car beeps 4-5 times if somebody doesn't put on his seat belt, then it shuts up for a minute, then tries again. And so on. That is IMHO the right setting for a "helpful reminder", any more and it becomes "obnoxious nagging".
It claims to be warning me the battery might go flat!
It could be worse, my wife's Citroën - which has the "stop-start" feature and hence an absolutely massive battery, and does quite a lot of long runs so the battery is rarely less than full - will only allow you to run the radio for 20 minutes with the engine off, after which it goes in to "battery save" mode from which the only escape is to turn the engine on. Run the engine for five minutes and switch off, and five minutes after you switch off the thing goes back into battery save mode.
There is absolutely no need for this, and it's a right pain in the backside when parked outside a local village hall or playing field waiting for the football or ballet class to finish, especially since the interior lights go out at the same time so in the winter you can't even take a book to read, and the 12V sockets go off so you can't charge your phone!
As for system updates - which involve bunging a USB stick into the display - the manufacturer reckons that they could take 45 minutes or more, so you must only do them with the engine running to avoid the power being turned off during an update!
M.
My previous truck had the shut off while stopped.
Took about 15min and a paperclip to fix that. Most of the same make, model and year developed a “cam phase problem” (commonly known as cold start rattle) and required an overhaul after 30k miles. Mine lasted to 60,200 before it was considered requiring repair. 200 miles past the warranty. The shop proudly informed me it was 200 miles past the warranty and it will cost me a special reduce rate of only $6k. I also proudly told him that was not an issue because they sold me the super premium platinum plan with the disappearing deductible.
Not only did they get to fix it for free, the have to pay for a rent car while they do it.
When I purchased a newer model later, for an additional $50 they would configure the software so it would stay running when stopped.
Create a problem, call it a feature and then charge for removing it when you upgrade.
My boss has a nearly new US market Honda Accord, we discovered when driving across the campus to meet a contractor that the car stops beeping and actually yells at you to put your seatbelt on in a computerized voce. I miss my old car that just beeped a few times and then went "eh, I tried," and never beeped again.
I fitted a Android Head Unit in my truck it has the CANBUS adaptor which has given me lots of helpful info displayed on the screen, but since the tinny little speaker did not give a clear sound, I have been spared the chime alerts as I left it unplugged.
The cheap little DVR\dashcam (which also plugs in via USB) after a firmware update also has Advanced Driver Assistance System which does tend to panic over its idea of where the lane actually is in relation to the truck, though it is quickly muted.
it didn't just beep when it was done, it would then nag, and beep every 30s until you opened the door.
The intent is to help you, not nag you.
If you've ever microwaved a frozen dinner or snack, you might have noticed that the instructions usually say something like "Microwave on high for three minutes then let stand in the microwave for two minutes."
Thus your microwave beeps repeatedly at a set interval after it is done cooking so you can track the post-cooking stand time without having to set another timer or guess.
A pointless instruction, as once the microwave source is switched off the appliance is just a cupboard. Removing the dish and letting it stand on the counter for two minutes has exactly the same effect. Of course "you must be careful not to to burn yourself" when removing it.
If it's like our air fryer it's to remind you to unplug it. It does the same thing.. beeps about once every 5 minutes until switched off, whether there's food in it or not.
Crazy decision by the manufacturer as it has a perfectly serviceable off button and has WiFi connectivity that is supposed to let you switch it on remotely - which is obviously impossible as it's kept unplugged..
I have a microwave, an electric hob and an air-fryer. All three emit a loud BEEP! each time a button is pressed despite the display changing to reflect the setting I've altered. God knows why, it's annoying as hell. Given each beep is identical in tone and duration, I'm not sure it'd be that informative to partially-sighted users so it serves no useful purpose at all.
Taking a screwdriver to the back panel and applying a dot of Blu-tack over the sounder rendered the microwave mostly impotent. The cooker is next in line for the operation...
Mostly it's for those who have visual problems: They rely on sound more than sight to know something's happened.
Similarly for the final ping: It's there for those who can't see too well, but also because people will put the microwave on and go do something else: They tune out the normal operating sound so the new ping, beep or siren draws attention to the appliance. Similarly if you pop the microwave on and go sit and watch something on the idiot box: You might forget about the microwave, to go get something from the kitchen,. If it's beeping away, it'll remind you that you'd put something in to heat and it's now done. Possibly even gone cold again and will need re-re-heating.
So annoying to some, but there are people who really need those indications to confirm they've hit a button and it's registered, and that the operation they set in motion is complete.
I admit that people with reduced cognitive capacities do exist and that they need to be catered for too, but I'm pretty sure most users are able to keep in mind for 2-3 minutes that they've put something in the microwave and that it will be ready momentarily. It's minutes we're speaking of, not hours.
'No. I was “made” in W Germany BEFORE the Berlin Wall went up. I strongly object to the notion that 30+ years is a good life........ I am nearly double that.'
Ah, but you are not a toaster (I sincerely hope, because we only know of one model of toaster that can talk, and the less said about that one, the better), so I would definitely hope that you have a good design lifespan!
Arguably, something as simple as a toaster ought to last for a very long time, I agree, although I guess the heating filaments might need replacing occasionally - the snag being whether the manufacturer still exists and can still provide spares…
i guess it depends on your definition of cheap
the previous samsung 12kg machine did 12 years before the seals started going and i thought that at less than ~70p per week over that time was cheap enough, it did have a free 5 year warranty that i never used.
my delonghi coffee machine is 11 years old and done over 8.5k coffees only used the descaling stuff 5 times, live in a hard water area and its still going, coffee shop coffees would have cost far more than i paid.
Panasonic vierra TV's Plasma from 2006 is still going as is the 2012 plasma, as is the 2006 Samsung LCD. Cost vs longevity again brings price per week down.
Power consumption for the TVs on the other hand probably massively increases price per week vs modernising.
Maybe if that television is really old or really large, but I tend to doubt it.
Even the old CRT TVs I grew up with, though they'd get noticeably warm, didn't dissipate all that much heat. Certainly not as much as a number of other appliances, or even the lighting in the room in some cases. (This was, of course, in the era where it was all incandescent.)
Since TVs are generally in conditioned space, if you live in a climate with a cold season, then the dissipated heat is useful anyway, since it offsets other heating. It may be more expensive than some other kinds of heating, but it's 100% efficient at point of use, because none of the generated heat is being exhausted outside the building. So for half the year it may not matter anyway.
And, of course, some people seem to leave the television on all the time, while others use it much less frequently. If OP doesn't use those TV sets all that often, the bound energy in a new one might overwhelm any savings of prematurely replacing the old one.
Panasonic vierra TV's Plasma from 2006
The museum I work in has four Panasonic plasma monitors from around 2004/5 (this part of the museum re-opened in late 2005 so the monitors were bought some time before then) which have been on for approximately 7½ hours a day, 362 days a year (bar most of 2020) and are still going strong with pictures almost as good as our very latest 4k LCD units. That's approaching 50,000 hours*. They (and about 50 other displays) are fed by video players which are of a similar age (obviously they were installed at the same time) and in which we are only now beginning to see PSU failures, though many have had HDD failures. The video players "start" and "stop" under centralised control, but are never actually switched off other than in power cuts and run what appears to be a customised version of DOS6 on an 8086-class processor with specialised MPEG decoding hardware.
We even have a few "original fit" Pentium + SCSI machines still running with original 10krpm Maxxtor HDDs. Those machines take about 160W in "idle" whereas our more recent AMD-A8 machines use below 30W so we tend not to resurrect the Pentiums when they die.
Projectors, on the other hand... well, some eejit decided to fit LCD-based projectors at the outset because the badge-manufacturer claimed "28,000 hours MTBF" while totally ignoring advice from people who had previously worked with projectors that this was obviously impossible. Indeed, it turned out that the OEM only rated the "optical block" (three LCD panels, three dichroic filters and a clever prism) for 4,500h and as I was happy to point out, the cost of the block alone could pay for a better specification, cheaper-to-run DLP-based projector from a different manufacturer. Those original replacements easily made their claimed 20,000 hours and some beat 30,000h (indeed I have just retired a couple which were well over 30,000h, only because we can no longer get original lamps and my experience with "remanufactured" lamps has been awful). Nowadays, with Laser and LED lamps replacing discharge lamps, we're looking again at LCD. I'll let you know...
M.
*7½ hours x 362 days x 17 years (to account for the missing days in 2020) = 46,155h but I've added a few because this part of the museum holds quite a lot of evening events which might carry on for five or six hours past the normal switch-off time.
Certainly it's not unreasonable to expect a kitchen appliance to last at least a couple of decades.
When we moved to the Stately Manor, we purchased a GE gas stove; when we sold the place 19 years later, it was not only still working but nearly as good as new, with only some of the lettering on the knobs worn off from cleaning and similar normal wear and tear (and all of that on easily-replaceable components). We brought the microwave we'd purchased a few years previously1 and that too was still working well, though it had some steam-related rust in the chamber.
We've had less luck with toaster ovens, though some lasted longer than others. I'll never buy another toaster oven from Oster; the one we had not only didn't last very long but had abysmal controls, the sort that only malice could explain. We bought a washer and dryer set from Sears – made by Haier, if memory serves – and had to have control panels in both replaced within the first three or four years, twice in the case of the washer. When the washer's failed the second time, I sourced a replacement panel from Italy (ah, global supply chains) and installed it myself to save some money. Curiously, neither failed again for the remaining eight or nine years we had them (left them with the house).
There's just a lot of really crap appliances being made, and even with the help of reviews and such it's hard to find good ones, because many of the brands sell machines from different manufacturers, and model numbers change all the time.
1A Panasonic Inverter, my favorite model among those I've used. The Inverter, unlike most microwave ovens, actually reduces the magnatron output rather than cycling it on and off for lower "power levels". I don't know that actually makes a significant difference, but I like it anyway. And the Inverter's other features, such as its steam-sensing reheat function, work well, and I like the controls. Of course that's all largely subjective.
"Yes they were expensive but they have paid for themselves many time over compared to buying cheap stuff."
Sam Vimes' "Boots" theory in a nutshell.
There is always a counter-example. I have had several Beko (that is, cheap) kitchen appliances over the years. One of them - an undercounter freezer - is nearly 20 years old and still going. Not that we haven't had failures with them, but that when we have had failures, the parts seem to be reasonably easy to obtain and reasonably-priced. The freezer needed a new thermostat when it was about 5 years old, which cost me something like £20, and it hasn't had a failure since, even through three housemoves and several kitchen reorganisations. By contrast our slightly more expensive fridge - some 10 years old at this point - needed a new bottom pin for the door hinge after the last house move. This tiny piece of metal cost £35 and came with a warning from the supplier that we were lucky they still had one in stock.
As regards shoes, even the expensive ones (well, expensive in my eyes) are built cheaply these days. I've just had a teenager point out that the sole of one of their 6-month-old "big brand" school shoes is beginning to come away from the upper. They are merely glued together and while I know he'll manage to fix it, I'm not looking forward to the withering look from my local cobbler / leather worker when I take it in for re-glueing.
I am reminded of the other end of the scale; Douglas Adams's Shoe Event Horizon.
M.
Had a Potterton Kingfisher II boiler. Service engineer kept saying 'keep it: They don't make replacement parts for it any more, but then they never needed replacement parts, unless the heating Manifold goes, and that's highly unlikely'. Was darn efficient, too, once I learned how to time the heating right. Had a salesdrone try to get me to change it, and showed me all sorts of facts and figures, then sat stunned when I showed them how much I spent on gas, noting I also had gas hob and cooker... A new boiler was never going to 'pay for itself'.
Oh, the boiler did fail: The control went. Engineer came and insisted it was the three way valve (which it didn't have), and spent half an hour looking around for the bit they were convinced was broken, to eventually accept it had to be something simpler: The controller. A separate unit that took 10 minutes to fit, had more functionality than the old one, and the boiler worked fine the moment it was fitted.
Old appliances work because they're simple: There's very little that can go wrong. The new stuff: Too many bits and pieces that we don't really need, nor want, but we have to pay for to simply get something that heats the house or heats our food, or cleans the floor or whatever. The only thing 'smart' about any of it is the gits behind it all sucking up data we're letting them have, making us part of the product, not their customer. Sure, if it reported a fault and got an engineer to me quicker, with the right bits for the repair - that might be worth while, but that doesn't seem to be the case, nor does it really save me money.
But I'm an old git. Got a hammer as old as I am: Replaced the head twice and the handle thrice, but it's the same hammer. (Also works for brooms).
Your ref to the Kingfisher needs a comment as well as an upvote. A bloody good, simple balanced flue boiler. Had one too, Indeed installed it myself back when it wasn't a criminal offence. Seems to have taken 20+ years for condensing gas boilers to have got close to that level of reliability.
Have to say the Grant condensing oil fired one I got along with the house here seems to be good. Especially now it's being regularly serviced.... And getting oil at 2p/KwH at the start of lockdown was an added bonus. Even the last fillup was "only" 10p/KwH, so no (financial) sense in a heat pump, and hopefully biofuel will save the day.
"Have to say the Grant condensing oil fired one I got along with the house here seems to be good"
Got a relatively recent Grant where I am at the moment (rural North Wales) also oil fired, also condensing, also combi. Small property, boiler lives externally.
For some reason the boiler is controlled by a Honeywell 2 channel programmer with wireless thermostat, though Grant have their own equivalents? The boiler itself may be fine, the Honeywell/Grant combination apparently hasn't been right for months.
I had an earlier version of the Honeywell in my last place, which worked fine till the original (gas, non condensing, non combi) boiler was "upgraded" badly to a condensing replacement which meant it needed an always on additional mains supply for the "smart" bits. Something eventually made a loud electrical bang.
My boiler is an 80's Glowworm. Apart from a wire brush across the burner a couple of times its had no maintenance since I moved in. They tell me I could save hundreds of pounds a year with a new boiler, but a new boiler will cost thousands and will eat itself in 10 years, and possibly need new circuit boards etc while its doing that. I've lived with my boiler 15 years and its cost me nothing...and the heat from it goes in to the house. The only waste is out of the exhaust.
Its now smart by the simple expedient of setting the clockwork based controller to 24/7 and plugging it in to a smart plug.
I have a dumb ikea oven. It was installed 2016, and bought because it matched the kitchen. It has three knobs to control it. A "mode" knob to control whether you are using the oven, the grill or both. A knob to set the temperature and a timer.
No need for Internet connectivity. No app needed.
I don't understand the point of making kitchen appliances "smart". Controlling devices via an app can be handy. You can turn on the heating when on your way home (for instance), or turn on the lights. The problem I have with doing this with any kitchen appliances is that with any kitchen appliance, at some point during it's use, you have to physically interact with the appliance, even if it's just loading or unloading the device. You need to put food in an oven, and take it out. You need to load the washing into your washing machine, and unload it. Yes, you might want to set the device to run overnight (or when the electricity is cheapest), but most washing machines and dishwashers (the two devices you are most likely to use overnight) have some sort of delayed start function or timer..
I must admit, I've never been comfortable with oven timers in particular. Leaving food in the oven at room temperature for many hours before the oven turns on and slowly comes up to temp. Never used the feature on either my current oven with electronic timer or the previous 30 year old one which had an electromechanical timer.
the builtin GE dual oven in our house dates from the mid 60s, we bought the house 30 years ago, in the mid 90s.
our Kenmore side-by-side fridge is from the late 80s or early 90s..
When our old Maytag washer wore out a half dozen years ago, we shopped long and hard, and got the last model Speed Queen to have traditional electromechanical timer based controls, the rest of the washer is built at least as well as that Maytag, probably heavier gauge steel as even if its out of balance it hardly complains.
I had refrigerator that was slightly older than I was (35 years) and I replaced it because it just seemed to run continuously at times and because of its age. I think the efficiency improvement mode an actual, measurable impact on my monthly electricity bill. 10 years would be the absolute minimum life expectancy for any durable appliance, clothing washer, dish washer, oven, motor vehicle, etc. If I buy a computer, phone, or component for general use at home, I expect at least 5 years out of it. Throw-away culture is absolutely out of control.
My Panasonic smart TV tries to connect to Panasonic end-points on a regular basis to check for connectivity. My PiHole log shows regular SERVFAIL responses from these end-points. It also tries to contact a dedicate "usage..." domain (blocked) and apparently funnels all traffic through Panasonic servers for a "consistent experience". Consistently sub-par being the result. Needless to say I use other devices that I trust only a little bit more (looking at their traffic) and don't use any of the smart features on the TV.
For TVs, you really want as dumb a TV as possible and just to plug in a cheap as chips Roku stick (or similar) for streaming channels (if you even want those). In the event that the streaming stick eventually stops getting updated, you just need to buy a new one after a number of years (yes, there's still a small amount of e-waste, but better and massively cheaper than essentially having to junk a whole TV), rather than cursing your expensive TV for most of its so-called 'smart' functionality decaying over time.
Exactly. Neither my TV nor DVR is connected to t'Internet. They sometimes tell me some feature I don't want won't work, but I laugh at them. I have a streaming dongleon the rare occasions I want to stream something. (and an NFS mount to that for things I've recorded elsewhere)
NOoooooo! My Roku was responsible for OVER 50% of the DNS traffic on my network, according to Pi-Hole. Apple TV wasn't as bad, but was still chatty when not in use. I think they are worse than a Smart TV.
Let's face it... The reason Smart TV's are so cheap is because they are monetizing the user on the back end with their tracking & marketing. That means it will cost the user money to get out of their control.
For me.... Mac Mini's on each TV + Pi-Hole & other network controls. Browser controls for ad-blocking, etc. Bluetooth keyboard & touch pad. Much easier to use (ever try 'typing' with a Roku?).
I have taken personal responsibility for my privacy, and it cost me money. I am the minority though. Most people will sell their privacy for a pittance.
I installed an IOT alarm add-on board.. basically just an.overpriced esp32 board with some voltage conversion.. I'd naively thought it would be more than that.
When I looked at DNS logging some time later it was responsible for over 70% of the DNS queries for the entire house. There were bursts of it asking for the same website address multiple times per second.
Of course the onboard software was completely proprietary and couldn't easily be updated, so that ended up.in waste.
you really want as dumb a TV as possible
Yes, yes, ... but have you tried buying a decent not-smart TV lately ? Our old TV (2nd hand to us "a few" years ago so it owes us nowt) packed in, so I started looking. There seem to be a few smaller sets still available, but by the time you get to 40" (ish) there seems to be little, if anything, without all the crapware.
Yes, you can not connect it to the network (as I've avoided doing with the one we've borrowed while we find another), but the UI is so geared up to the smart stuff that basics like select "live TV" or "HDMI1" are no longer "press one button, scroll up and down the list". On our borrowed one, if you press the source button, Live TV is several presses away in a different menu to the HDMI inputs etc.
but have you tried buying a decent not-smart TV lately ?
It's getting to the stage where I'm seriously considering a "commercial display" for my next TV. For example, something by Panasonic (PDF). They've just redesigned the website, sorry. Obviously other manufacturers are available.
Those are the types of thing we use at work, and despite some smart features they generally keep out of your face.
M.
I use projectors at home. They are relatively dumb. My latest Benq contains an internal HDMI port within a small internal "box", so you can plug an external (like a tv fire stick) internally. Best of both worlds if you want that sort of functionality!
All I've EVER wanted is a dumb screen/display. I've had this view since growing up in the 80's (Not a novel idea - all audio was separates back them)
We just bought a big OLED monitor.
Lovely picture, completely dumb.
I plug my 2015-era laptop in to the HDMI; 1080p works nicely over our bargain basement ADSL.
When the chip famine abates (I'm on 4 reserve lists), I'll add an RPi 4 with a DVB-T2 dongle.
It won't phone home, we'll use the software we want (Kodi?) and upgrade it as required.
My dad's "smart" Panasonic TV is unplugged from the internet. In this mode he can still access "teletext" (MHEG on the red button) which is not quite as quick and simple as Ceefax was, but does the job of letting him keep on top of the cricket scores (and they still haven't actually turned it off).
Plug the thing in to the internet, perhaps to watch something in iPlayer, and MHEG disappears. There's no good reason why.
M.
There was so much kick back on that they reconsidered, it was alleged it would discriminate against the elderly.
They did apply further funding cuts to it, in particular no through the night news updates and many articles are clearly the first couple of paragraphs of an online story with literally no human thought as to whether such an abridged article makes sense: some are two or three sentences of teaser and then end of article, without even a clue as to what the story was about.
Is it me? I just do not get why you would want to take a simple piece of kit and add a mass of complexity with who knows what vulnerabilities and which shortens the useful life of the kit all to add 'Using a mobile phone' to the features?
As the previous commenters have said, these things should last decades and I would struggle to find a single reason why being able to use a remote control is actually a good thing. OK, a remote for a TV is good but why allow the manufacturer to change the user experience after you have bought it or to track what you choose to watch.
It’s them.
The manufacturers want these to be useless sooner rather than later. What use is there making something that lasts 20+ years when they can force you to buy a new one after four or so years? Might not be the same manufacturer but if they all do the same thing then all of them sell more kit over time.
Is it me? I just do not get why you would want to take a simple piece of kit and add a mass of complexity with who knows what vulnerabilities and which shortens the useful life of the kit all to add 'Using a mobile phone' to the features?
Won't someone think of the children! It's an important public safety feature, especially as gas ovens are soon to be banned. Have you any idea what would happen, and the pollution that would result from someone leaving their mobile phone inside the oven? Installing WiFi, BlueTooth and probably ZigBee allows manufacturers to check for recursive appliance were appliances may have been inadvertently left in inappropriate configurations, like a phone in a microwave that's been installed inside a large fridge, freezer or oven. Too many modern users are unaware that the large hole in the front of their new luxury oven is not the microwave shelf, with the door keeping it hidden.
"AEG chose the easy route, and checks three public websites every five minutes when connected to your Wi-Fi," he said, noting that its smart ovens ping google.com, baidu.cn, and yandex.ru.
Nope, still don't get it. The easy route would be to errmm.. not. I did kinda predict this back in around 2000, or possibly earlier though with a spoof post to uk.telecom. I suggested having fridges etc hooked up to the Internet because flat panels make good transducers, and kitchens tend to end up being dens of intrigue. It was mainly so I could create a conspiracy theory explaining why Freeserve was trying to outnumber AOL in the number of CD's being pressed.
Now, I guess if AEG made a large smart microwave, then we could place other 'smart' devices inside it and lobotomise their 'smart' features.
To sell stuff, collect data and fulfil the insatiable appetite of the millions who thing that being able do something on the phone is "cool".
That it adds no value is irrelevant.
As far as security is concerned, they have no concerns. Security is a concept that is completely alien to them. The average consumer has minimal idea what happens when you connect all this shite to the Internet.
Here in Europe (and UK) we know all about these nefarious websites that allow you to bypass super-injunctions by celebrities amongst other things you won't find on google and I'm not talking about illegal stuff. Just stuff you wont see at home. I don't think there is one super-injunction I have never been able to find or scandal involving <redacted> doing <redacted> with <redacted> and a spatula. The spatula bit was a joke btw so you don't need to sensor my comment as it was clearly a <redacted> used as a <redacted> up the <redacted>.
As for all this sneaky wifi I only have one question. Why? What do they hope to gain? Shut off after a few years? Who knows?
Just a load of anti-vaxxer fake news / conspiracy theories.
Citation needed
I realise a Pfizer mRNA R&D exec talking about using gain-of-function for fun & profit, along with the revolving door between politics and pharma might be bad news, but are you sure it's fake news?
As for conspiracy theories, that would be suggesting the reason for 'smart' microwaves and other kitchen appliances is to provide redundancy for when the 5G networks are down. I think the problem we have in the 21st Century is that too many people are unable to tell the difference between conspiracy theories, conspiracies, and why some ideas like 'smart' appliances are just bad ideas..
On the grounds that there appears to be no evidence that the individual in question even works for Pfizer, yes.
Strange the way that immediately the story broke, the person deleted their social media profiles and attempted to erase their online presence. That can happen. Digital stuff can be wiped, like with a cloth. Of course it could just be an extremely elaborate way to impress a first date, complete with fake social media profile and references to his work for BCG. Some of the usual suspects have certainly rallied round to officially deny it. And the individual in question probably no longer works for Pfizer or BCG. They may even be facing charges of false imprisonment, assault and criminal damage thanks to bein caught out just making stuff up.
Oh, and-
https://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2023/1/rubio-sends-letter-to-pfizer-ceo-on-alleged-gain-of-function-research
who should probably seek Congressional subpoenas and compel record preservation as well. Pending Pfizer's response, I'll happily accept I was wrong. Others meanwhile will probably carry on living in denial, contrary to any evidence that might be presented..
The whole idea of being able to switch on/off or operate a domestic appliance when you are not in front of it just fills me with dread. Especially one that gets hot enough to burn your house down, or wet enough to flood the place. Since you filled the oven or washing machine this morning, how do you know what has happened?
I'm sure the handbooks for these devices used to say "never operate this machine unattended" or similar (maybe they still do) but now they want you to actually operate it when you are miles away with no visual or other sensory connection.
And there are people lapping this up as a great advancement?
God help us.
Those lapping people tend to be the yoof of today. Have you spoken to any of them recently? They seem to have been (un)educated by "the system" to the point of accepting any bollocks they are indoctrinated with. My own kids have been enough of a challenge to keep on a sane path, and even then I think I've faiied in my mother's eyes.
Mine's the one with the CDs in the pocket, and a few 7½ ips tapes ...
There was today an article on one of the main Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera, written by the ex Minister of Innovation full of bollocks about the 2023 technology trends. Looked written by ChatGPT - but I tend to believe it was written by the ex Minister herself - I guess the AI would have done better.
Even my mum's oven had a "Come on at time xx:xx" feature, it was manually set on the analogue clock on the front. It was supposed to be used so you could leave everything in the oven in the morning and then return home to a steaming hot casserole or similar & it was used fairly regularly.
My washing machine has a 'delay start' function on it so it can run either overnight or when we are not in the house. The oven has something similar but it's all digital & I can't work it out (I'm IT not a rocket scientist!).
The issue isn't "Unattended operation", that's been happening for years, the issue is why have Wi-Fi enabled washing machines & fridges? Remote diagnosis of faults? A marketing ploy aimed at the gullible? Or simply because "Everything's got Wi-Fi now"?
The issue isn't "Unattended operation", that's been happening for years, the issue is why have Wi-Fi enabled washing machines & fridges? Remote diagnosis of faults? A marketing ploy aimed at the gullible? Or simply because "Everything's got Wi-Fi now"?
Penny: How are flower barrettes gonna appeal to men?
Howard: We add Bluetooth!
Sheldon: Brilliant! Men love Bluetooth!
Penny: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You want to make a hair barrette with Bluetooth?
Sheldon: Penny - Everything is better with Bluetooth.
> The issue isn't "Unattended operation", that's been happening for years,
But in the non-connected scenario, the person setting the timer is present and can ensure the device is suitably setup. Between the timer being set and the activation anyone in the physical vicinity can see the timer is active and take appropriate action/precautions.
In the connected, remote activation scenario, when the remote user starts the process they do not know (for sure) the state of the device.
At least they should be but knowing the sort of people who'd find it essential to build appliances with 'connectivity' its probably exchanging a lot more information -- and using more bandwidth.
I am not afraid of Russia or China knowing what I'm cooking for dinner. I am afraid of global connectivity that serves no useful purpose. I'm really afraid of things starting to not work because some site has gone down or some subscription has expired.
I've spent a fair bit of my working life connecting all sorts of random bits and pieces of industrial equipment to networks. If I thought for a moment that my microwave or kettle or whatever needed global connectivity I could have added it literally decades ago. I haven't, and its not because I don't know how to or never thought of it, its because I thought it was a fun gimmick of limited utility that exposes the machinery to endless abuse (although if I had done it there wouldn't be any room for hackers and other 'security issues' -- frankly, I don't trust typical IoT programmers to know how to build secure code.)
My 20 year old water softener needed a valve replaced that was leaking slightly. When the tech was here I asked what was new in the field. He said everything now is controlled from a smart phone app. For a WATER SOFTENER?? AND they now cost about 3x what I paid, even after adjusting for inflation. Well nuts to that, I'm probably now good for another 20 years.
We've got a "connected" water softener. I can confirm that it works fine without internet, but the data thus made available is quite interesting. I totally agree, however, that there is no need for the data to beamed to the internet just so that I can see how much water and salt we're using: a USB connection or Bluetooth would be more than suffiicent. As for costs: factor in an additional 10% pa. for maintenance! This makes it far more expensive than costs incurred by not having one and relying on device softeners and water filter for making tea, but we do enjoy the water and fewer fights with lime scale in the bathrooms!
A bigger bugbear is that the stacks of these devices are shit: I've yet to come across a device that will automatically reconnect if the connection is dropped: DHCP lease renewal, router restart, or just because it's Monday and if they can't get that right, I shudder to think about security.
makes almost as much sense as the remote control for the cooker hood (which incidentally, beeps to let me know I've turned on or off the loud fan or the bright light).
I suspect the coloured pencil brigade marketing department decide, hey, everything has to have remote control, ideally over t'interwebs' these days, and the engineers just shrug and say here we go again. It keeps us in a job.
(Yes, I did design an internet-connected cat feeder. But at least the connectivity had some purpose, apparently, with information that the cat owner actually wanted to know.)
My oven has sophisticated controls I get set the over to start at a set time and good for for a duration (useful if going out and knowing when you will be back) but that is it.
Normally I am at home when cooking food so don’t need it the same as I don’t use the wireless app on the washing machine again it has a delay timer so I can set it to start washing and be finished when I wake up.
No I do not have any need for WiFi enabled
Washing machines
Ovens
Fridge
Pressure washer (why would I want a phone anywhere need a 150psi water jet)
Shower (saw that the other day…..)
Smart thermostat
Lights
Anything else I have forgotten please add to the list….
You forgot toothbrush.
OK most are actually Bluetooth [how very ironic] on the latest Braun iO series and while they say it has Bluetooth they seem to neglect to say why but their TriZone really does have Wifi to connect to the remote display to show how well you are cleaning your teeth!!!!
> they seem to neglect to say why
You only start really to live when you can check on your toothbrush from the underground/train/plane...
Why? Because they can, obviously. Build it and somebody will come (and think it is useful to them and they shouldn't live without that feature).
I briefly worked in a company that was developing one, though I don't know whether it, er, came to market.
Aha! General hardware/industrial design question..
Are we perhaps seeing so many 'smart' devices, simply because it's difficult/more expensive to buy bulk lots of microcontrollers that include networking than chips that don't? Been a while since I've been involved in hardware design, but came across that sort of scenario when I wanted 8MB memory chips, and 1GB were quite a bit cheaper because none of the fabs were really making small ones any more.
If you mean that top-of-the-line Karcher thing, I'm sure you weren't alone in your WTF?!? moment. Certainly what I thought. What could you possibly need a data connection for? You're stood there holding the damn trigger anyway.
Water usage telemetry? Perhaps, but why? Did Karcher's market research discover a huge number of their existing or potential customers were crying out for an IOT jet washer? Or did some morons in the crayons dept decide there's enough other morons who'll buy anything "connected"? Actually my money's on the latter.
Really.
I was at Terence Eden's talk at EMF 2018..
https://cdn.media.ccc.de/events/emf/2018/h264-hd/emf2018-1-eng-The_Connected_House_of_Horrors_hd.mp4
And, because I can already hear the penetration testing jokes lumbering over the hill...
https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/we-need-to-talk-about-sex-toys-and-cyber-security/
I bought a Samsung "smart" TV a couple of years ago. Some time later ...
As far as I can see I can either have an adblocker on the :LAN or I can have a working TV.
The TV wants me to agree to Samsung's Ts+Cs before the TV starts up. If it can't get to the Ts+Cs it won't start up/
If I have PiHole on the LAN, with fairly mild settings, the Ts+Cs are inaccessible because they are on the same server as something one of the popular blocklists blocks.
Wtf?
Had a similar experience with a recent Samsung TV.
It wouldn't do anything (even scan free to air) until it was connected to the WiFi. But it couldn't connect to WiFi successfully.
Eventually worked out it needed a firmware update which I had to download and load via USB stick.
Along similar lines to this article, it seemed it's shipped firmware was checking a now defunct samsung address and when it got no answer it declared the internet not working.
Reaching a popular service does not prove that the device can reach the services it might actually need to reach.
Why doesn't the device only test to see if it can reach the services it might need to reach?
Even reaching the services it might need someday does not prove that it will again be able to do so when it needs to.
-
What does the device currently do if the reachability test fails?
What does the device do if it can't reach what it needs to when it needs to?
This is the new mantra.
The latest word on the subject comes from Stephan van Rooij, a software architect with Smartersoft BV in the Netherlands and a Microsoft MVP in security [...] The Register asked the US spokesperson for Sweden-based Electrolux to comment.
Maybe El Reg should try the EU counterpart.
I have 3 Asus wifi mesh devices which are hardwired together to provide wifi coverage in each room,
every minute each of them pings dns.msftncsi.com ..............
fortunately, because I run pi-hole and own dns none of this leaves my network.
Oh, and I've gone into the devices' settings and turned all this off, but it doesn't actually turn off.............
we need military grade firewalls; not to keep hackers out but to keep our own devices inside!
I bought a new ASUS router recently. What the product description carefully left out was that enabling any of the advanced features required agreeing to a privacy policy with Trend Micro, which stated they collected (among a LOT of other things) the URLs accessed through the router, and the restrictions on what they could do with my private data only applied if I lived in the EEA or UK. So selling my household's browsing history to a "partner" (meaning anybody they do business with) would be considered ok by their policy.
Good thing I don't need the advanced features that bad. Looking into alternate firmwares anyway.
I'm looking at an Odroid H3 sbc with 2 x 2.5Gb ethernet, sticking router/firewall/pi-hole/dns on it and running the whole network through it.
commercial stuff has some nice toys/features but a proper edge-control device which just controls in/out is better......
"...companies developing appliances that want to "smartify" should first consider having local control on the current Wi-Fi network, and then make the cloud optional"
Being able to remotely turn on an oven is a huge security risk. There is very little reason to want to control appliances from outside the home except for "how cool it is" (for most users tried once and forgotten about)
Local WiFi only should be the norm
I thought my washing machine had the right idea: it can be controlled using Bluetooth, so no internet access required.
The thing is, I downloaded the app and the first things it wants are internet connectivity and my email address. App deleted. I was only doing it out of curiosity and didn't even know the machine had Bluetooth when I bought it.
I imagine next time I shop for a dishwasher it will be impossible to buy a dumb unsociable one. Does anyone know if those things are smart enough to randomize their MAC addresses or something (damn, I am giving them ideas!) or will it be possible, e.g., to tell the WIFi router to give it an IP address (so that it doesn't get it from anyone else) and then block all incoming and outgoing traffic from it? Will it refuse to wash the dishes then?
Asking for a technically-minded friend, of course. I myself don't mind Baidu, Yandex, and Google knowing when I wash the dishes, what was for dinner from built-in forensic analysis of residue on plates and pans (information that will be passed to insurance companies if it is determined that my dinner was unhealthy more than 4 days a month), or when to call me to offer "extended warranty". Of course not - I am not that paranoid.
I bought the most "dumb" cooker I could find. A Bertazzoni that doesn't even have a clock or timer. My previous cooker (Smeg) insisted on me setting the current time first before it would allow me to start the oven - however I like to turn the cooker off on the switch so that the children won't play with it. Don't know how had the genius idea that an oven shouldn't work if it doesn't know the time. Maybe in the future ovens will refuse to work if the Wifi doesn't connect.
I'm not convinced pinging random servers is giving away much information. I suppose if you knew of a specific vulnerability in a specific device, and it happened to ping at a known interval, that fingerprint would enable you to find IP addresses to attack.
But you would still need to get past the NAT firewall. So it's more likely an attacker would start by scanning all IPs to find NAT firewalls with known vulnerabilities and then see what devices are behind each one.
But you would still need to get past the NAT firewall. So it's more likely an attacker would start by scanning all IPs to find NAT firewalls with known vulnerabilities and then see what devices are behind each one.
Your attacker might be a little more sophisticated. Maybe they've already hacked the 'smart' device manufacturer, because any smart manufacturer wouldn't be so dumb as to bake in insecurities, risks (reminds me, not checked comp.risks in a while) and liabilities. So maybe they know where a particular device is, because the owner completed the product registration form and short survey providing lots of handy socio-economic profiling data identifying them as a lucrative mark. They may have obtained that by hacking the manufacturer and stealing that customer data, or just buying a list from someone that already did.
Then they may be sitting outside the target location with a wireless snooper waiting for the machine to check connectivity. Then, because most 'NAT firewalls' aren't that smart, most just blindly permit outbound connections. So they allow a hole, and leave it open for what it hopes is an ICMP response. So you spoof that response and send a carefully crafted ICMP reply that the 'firewall' probably allows through, and allows the hacker to do a spot of privilege escalation an pwn the device. Once pwnd, the hacker then has control over the 'trusted' device on the inside of the firewall, and can roam around from there. Or maybe they just do this as a drive-by, turn the oven up to max temperature and park up to watch the pretty fires.
Or for grander conspiracies, the devices pick one Russian, one Chinese and one American reachability server because they've got TPTB that are most likely to want to compromise devices en masse. Once the appliance has determined connectivity exists, it then simply uploads any audio, video, or snooped WiFi data back to TPTB's servers for analysis. TPTB are of course pretty much spoiled for choice when it comes to surveillance devices 'smart' people choose to buy & install in their homes.
And all because 'smart' people do dumb things and think having a WiFi connected kettle or microwave is a GoodThing(tm).
That's just plain stupid, and more work!
Try the servers it will use for the "smart" task.
After all, nobody cares if their "smart" device can reach Google, or Baidu. They care whether it actually works when they want it to.
And if your servers cannot cope with that traffic, maybe rethink the entire idea, eh?
"I think that companies developing appliances that want to "smartify" should first consider having local control on the current Wi-Fi network, and then make the cloud optional,"
This.
If governments had a clue they'd be mandating on this kind of rule.
(Although they'd probably mess it up - due to incompetence or brown envelopes)
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
