Nice smart device – how long does it get software updates? Buyers of high-end smart devices could find their shiny appliance loses some of its capabilities or becomes a security risk after a few short years when manufacturers fail to provide software updates, says Which? The consumer rights organization reckons this situation could affect various domestic appliances such as washing …
Exactly and connected devices can easily become disconnected.
The radiator thermostatic valves in my house are mostly over 40 years old and still work, the central thermostats is over 25 years old and still works.
The IoT version of these might offer some small benefits but those are vastly overshadowed by the need to replace them every few years both from a cost and environmental point of view.
I'm not a fan of smart devices but ironically smart thermostats are one thing I am thinking of investing in,
My house is on 3 floors, the top floor was basically storage and my office, I work at home after the huge hike in gas prices i have moved my office downstairs and only heat the top floor enough to prevent things from getting mouldy or freezing.
During the day I need to heat my new office as sitting still in bitter cold doesn't end well for me but don't need to heat the other bedrooms or lounge, later in the afternoon I do need to heat the lounge and dining room and then when I finish work I no longer need to heat the office. before the huge price hikes this level of complexity was too much to get my head around and we were just heating the whole house as long as someone is home.
Whilst have remote controls for lights and plug sockets these are dumb rf devices which dont have any interconnectivity I do have streaming speakers but not smart versions and although these were expensive Bose devices it looks as if support for these will disappear shortly. This may mean I lose the multi room functionality but hopefully Bluetooth streaming from my phone will continue to work.
>If you have regular working hours
For many years I worked irregular hours and locations, I was able to manage with a programmable thermostat etc.
Although I did once have a close call with a frozen water supply, but the application of a trace heating strip with a frost thermostat solved that particular problem.
From the work I had to do with my daughter's uni. flat, I think too many people believe the most economical use of the heating is to only have it on when you are in the house, not that you actually need it on to keep the structure dry and prevent mould growth.
So I basically set the room state to always come on if the ambient temperature falls below 14C (*) and then give the house a couple of blasts which get the temperature in those damp places mould likes to grow well over 12C so they dry out.
(*) Interestingly, I've come across a number of insurance policies where if the house is to be left vacant with water in the central heating system and pipes then the minimum temperature needs to be set at 15C and the house to be visited at least once a week...
"If you have regular working hours, probably programmable thermostats would be enough, they don't have to be connected ones."
And if you have irregular hours, take your coat off a bit later after you get home.
(And set the night time temperature to 5 degrees celsius so the pipes don't freeze)
That is basically the right approach to all ‘smart’ devices. In some cases there can be benefits if the thing is programmable or remote controlled or something. But… The piece with the complicated software has to be disentangled from the hardware. You have hardware which actually does something – and with that you may or may not have a computer (whatever the form factor) which provides the smarts. And they can be replaced independently. Because they have very different upgrade cycles. Then it perhaps can work.
>During the day I need to heat my new office as sitting still in bitter cold doesn't end well for me but don't need to heat the other bedrooms or lounge
In my previous posting I missed this.
Personally, Given you are using the central heating as your main heating, the simple solution to creating a warm spot in your office is to purchase an infrared heater and use this to provide the additional 'blast' of heat and have the window open! The purchase and operating cost is likely to be much lower than changing the central heating to heat just your office.
If you want to save money you need a thermostatic valve on each radiator, set to the temperature you want the room to be heated to. You can get ones off the shelf for about £20 upwards. It will save you at least 10%, I had an electric storage boiler [horrible contraption] with water to radiators, which cost a fortune to run 25 years ago, so it was well worth it. No house should be without TRV's.
Alternatively you could play with OpenTRV, https://github.com/opentrv, which has been around for a good while.
I get the same laughter for my >20-year-old radio controlled solar-powered Junghans analogue watch. Entirely accurate, elegant, utterly reliable....
My nephew's iWatch fails if he moves more than a couple of metres from his iPhone, and persistently bursts into life telling him that it didn't understand his last verbal command (that he hadn't actually made - Siri had just assumed that the conversation was directed at it!)
The attention it now gets is just a faint wave.
Nothing will change until legislation demands 25 years of support. And that should be the absolute minimum time period for support.
If the company no longer wishes to support a device (sku) prior to the 25 year period, then it must, at least one year prior, publicly release all code and schematics, from client device to server systems and for all freely accessible, so that others may provide support and updates.
The sad thing is buyers should hold the most sway, as they're the ones who elect goverments to office (assuming said buyers live in some semblance of a democracy).
But it'll take the voters acting collectively to vote anyone out of office who doesn't support such long support periods and EOL requirements. Which is why it'll propbably never happen.
"publicly release all code and schematics, from client device to server systems and for all freely accessible"
Except, of course, the mish-mash complex warren of variously licenced components, especially in the s/w, that can't be given away for free and the licensors simply won't allow to be given away because they are still raking in licence fees from other users/vendors.
A couple of possible solutions is only using open source as the base and developing on top of that in house so all of the IP is "owned" by the vendor or otherwise unencumbered or fully developing in-house, risking patent infringements, ramping the costs up significantly and re-inventing the wheel at each and every OEM.
Personally, I'd say the most obvious and viable solution is to keep the same codebase as near as possible and not keep re-inventing the "look and feel" for each and every new model. Security fixes can be developed for the base level that could be 10 years old, and only then update and adapt the fixes for the newer versions.
>"publicly release all code and schematics, from client device to server systems and for all freely accessible"
Suggest 20 years rather than 25 and so aligned with patent protection. And for the disclosure to commence after 10 years to registered third-party repair agencies - so the after-market is able to pick this up, just as they do with spare (physical) parts. Given the major white goods manufacturers currently participate in this service and maintenance market, it shouldn't cause that much of a disturbance...
>Except, of course, the mish-mash complex warren of variously licenced components
With a statutory requirement to disclose, I suspect this will have a massive impact on the way stuff is developed. Wouldn't be surprised if the entire process becomes more aligned with open-source ethics.
>and not keep re-inventing the "look and feel" for each and every new model
Its only really Microsoft who have championed the mixing of core functionality with the "look and feel" - there really is no good reason for Windows 10/11 to have the same mangled code as Win95. Remember with Win3/WfWg the desktop aka Program Manager sat on top of the core windows functionality, hence why others such as HP were able to build their own version of Program Manager.
These smart versions may offer remote control using an app, allowing people to control their washes using a smartphone or one of those voice-activated assistants, or might use software to determine the most suitable wash program for dishes, choosing cycles that are water and energy efficient.
Nobody asked for this. I have never met anyone saying even once "Gee, I wish I could control my dishwasher from an app. You know rather than just pressing a button to start the cycle, I'd rather pull up the phone, find the app, troubleshoot why it is not connected, see an advert and turn on the dishwashing function and then you know watch the cycles and water usage."
Plus - because the app will almost certainly have to be registered - swim through the inevitable emails from the manufacturer to remind me to buy a service schedule and consider buying other white goods they are promoting. Doubtless they'll also email the user to remind them that the damn machine needs to be replaced when it's about 4 years old. By happy coincidence, they'll be offering a super deal on a new one.
Many of us have mentioned that more or less since the first of these types of devices came on the market. In the UK and EU, there is a thing called "reasonable life" expectancy that covers the device long past the 2 year warranty period. Usually parts only and it has to shown the fault was inherent in the design or a manufacturing defect and the "value" tapers down with age.
I'm surprised there hasn't been court cases yet of devices failing to work as advertised after a couple of years. The most obvious being the "smart" TVs where half the apps stop working after a couple of years and which most people already have.
I wonder how many "out of court settlements" there have been with people who have refused to back down against the retailers and/or manufacturers, probably with NDAs?
> I have never met anyone saying even once
Wait and somebody will pop up to tell us he can't live without being able to launch his dishwasher from the subway, using voice control. Now why this might be a necessity would need quite some creative argumenting, but I'm sure somebody will step up eventually...
Very well done for getting that reference! The joke is something along the lines of:
Bluebottle: “When my Grandpa retired they got him one of those things what wakes you up in the morning and makes you a cup of tea.”
Seagoon: “That was nice…”
Bluebottle: “Yes, it was my Grandma”
I found allowing 'Girlfriend' or 'Boyfriend' to be entertained at home does wonders for both the "disease laden pit" aka bedroom and for Boys to overcome their aversion to baths et al.
Allowing the holding of a New Year party, got the entire house tidied both beforehand and afterwards...
Icon, because you'll need a few to calm the nerves and they can serve as rewards for well-behaved teenagers.
The only compelling use case I can think of would be to make optimum use of domestic solar panels. A friend of mine has such an installation, and can monitor the panels' output remotely. Being able to take a few moment in the lunch break to see how much power the panels are producing, and to decide whether or not to start a pre-loaded dishwasher could be handy.
(Of course, most of those same benefits could be realised with an old fashioned time switch - if only the appliance had physical switches instead of push-buttons!)
> (Of course, most of those same benefits could be realised with an old fashioned time switch - if only the appliance had physical switches instead of push-buttons!)
Or some kind of local automation along the lines of "sun shines = start the dishwasher"... Now if you want to go overkill, add a module which only starts the appliances if/when the solar panel output goes over a given threshold.
A genuinely "smart" dishwasher would have a timer set for the latest you want them done by then monitor the solar power storage unit and attempt to wait for it to have enough energy before starting the cycle, and if it doesn't reach full potential, start anyway, making use of what is stored before the storage unit switches back to grid supply. If the storage battery reaches enough potential to run the dish washer, start immediately to make space in the battery for the rest of the day to continue charging. No point in having a full battery and draining a fair amount just before you get home. Being able to manually check remotely and set things going is a backward step. True automation and optimisation is the devices doing this all themselves to minimise grid power usage.
>Being able to take a few moment in the lunch break to see how much power the panels are producing, and to decide whether or not to start a pre-loaded dishwasher could be handy.
If you've got time to do this, I suggest you need to think about getting a life.
About the only things I want to know about before I walk in are:
The freezer has stopped working, or "pick dinner up on the way home as we're out/running late".
>well, once the 'dynamic' pricing of the home grid becomes reality
I assume it will become a lot like an Ebay auction so you'll only really know what the price is at the start of the period, in your example at 3:01 a.m. Naturally, if your bid is unsuccessful, your meter will limit/shut-off your electricity until such a time as your bid is successful...
I have a so called smart washing machine. I say so called because I have never connected it to WiFi, or downloaded the app for it.
Until they make a washing machine that can load and empty iftself and put the clothes away what is the point. It has a delay start function so I can load it in advance but I can’t see the point of the other so called smart features.
Same as I why would I want lights I can turn on by using my phone, there are switches around the house that do it for me.
Appliances, agree. But some controllable light switches are useful to keep the burglars away. Lights can be told to turn on or off at some point in the evening, in different rooms. And I do like being able to control the heating so that it can go on when we are getting nearer home. Smart doorbells- I'm still not sure We have a basic Ring doorbell It's improved quite a lot since we bought it, ( so those updates are important!) but it's still not quite up there with the promise suggested by the adverts. And was probably more expensive than was justified, It's not often that we use it for more than could be achieved by a normal old fashioned ding-dong bell.
Is it possible for someone to make a not-so-smart doorbell? Just a button that connects to my home and rings through the home smart speakers and/or my phone.
I dont need to physically see who's at the door before I answer j, I don't need to record the postie putting letters through my door. I just to know there's someone on my doorstep.
Get pretty-much any zigbee hub (Philips Hue is popular) and then any battery Zigbee push-button. Aliexpress has _tons_ of them.
Most of the big-brang Zigbee hubs having integrations with Google / Alexa.
For bonus points run Home Assistant on an old PC or a Pi, add a zigbee transmitter and do the whole lot locally. It's extremely satisfying I assure you!
We've had those for years, they're called timers. back to the 80s with you. and the police adverts same as self opening curtains and such.
I will say I'm impressed with my home Alarm system being semi smart and also my last car. sending route details to the car from indoors and checking how much fuel i have was actually useful before I got in Especially if the Wife had used the car previously,
Not so much the washing machine. the only person it tells the washing is done is my daughter. Really useful when she was away at university 186 miles away.
God knows why she connected it to her phone.
Most smart smart tech devices are solutions to problems we didn't have and a convenient way of dragging your router /hub bandwidth down to zero.
Not gonna tell you anything more than you will see by looking at the fuel gauge when you start the car. Either way you'll still need to get fuel if you've got less range than your journey needs. Not sure how knowing that in advance helps, other than you might need to allow another 10 mins for your trip.
I can appreciate that sending the destination to the satnav remotely could be useful though, especially if the satnav is fiddly to use compared to your smart app.
Of course, if manufacturers made satnavs that actually considered usability, that would also help. Far to many seem to forget the thing needs to be used by a human, with fingers.
>and checking how much fuel i have was actually useful before I got in Especially if the Wife had used the car previously,
I found in these circumstances it was sensible to always check the car the previous evening - too many early starts to catch a red-eye flight where fitting in a petrol stop at an open garage within the mileage left in the tank was non-trivial...
Also those mornings where the other half was departing first and wanted to take "your car" ie. they knew their car was practically empty of fuel...
Visited a colleague at home recently and she lives in a very old house. Still had the original door bell, nearly a hundred years old! Took in a minute to work out how to use it (it was in the evening so fairly dark is my excuse), but it was metal, and you had to twist it.
worked a treat
Smart washing machines tell you when they’re done through your phone. If you have an office the other end of the house this can be the difference of finishing the washing in a day or not as you’ll know when the dryer is ready for the next load.
Not a huge advantage but I do find this handy.
That isn't what was said.
My 20 year old washing machine has a number of wash programmes which according to the manual broadly correspond to 30/60/90 minute washes. However, as the machine has various setting (stains, extra rinse, short spin etc.) and sensors (load, water colour etc.) a wash programme can be shorter (or longer). As far as I'm concerned based on my selections my washing machine is always ready to be emptied after an hour, hence I simply organise my 'washday' time and activities around this. Similar applies to the tumble drier. This way the washing can get done whilst being slotted around a load of other jobs...
I just don't see any benefit in rushing to sort the washing out, just because the programme has finished after 50 minutes rather than 59 minutes...
> Nobody asked for this. I have never met anyone saying even once "Gee, I wish I could control my dishwasher from an app.
Eldest sprog complained after coming back from Uni that the washing machine at home didn't send her phone notifications when it had finished washing her stuff unlike the ones in halls in uni.
Not that I think it would make any difference to persuading her to walk down the stairs and take her cloths out of the machine
Many of us have mentioned that more or less since the first of these types of devices came on the market. In the UK and EU, there is a thing called "reasonable life" expectancy that covers the device long past the 2 year warranty period. Usually parts only and it has to shown the fault was inherent in the design or a manufacturing defect and the "value" tapers down with age.
I'm surprised there hasn't been court cases yet of devices failing to work as advertised after a couple of years. The most obvious being the "smart" TVs where half the apps stop working after a couple of years and which most people already have.
I wonder how many "out of court settlements" there have been with people who have refused to back down against the retailers and/or manufacturers, probably with NDAs?
My dishwasher has a delay function to allow me to schedule a wash using cheap rate electricity. That’s smart enough for me and my needs.
Whilst away at Christmas a friend of the family asked me what I would recommend when purchasing smart devices. I said I wouldn’t and that connected appliances etc. we’re only as smart as the backend support/updates. I cited articles on here and my own parents who have a Panasonic ‘smart’ TV. My mum the week before Christmas wanted to watch ITV catch-up on the telly. It didn’t work so she called me and I dutifully went round to diagnose the problem. I said that the encryption had changed on the iTV online offerings and doubtless her telly wasn’t capable or hadn’t had the dev work put in to make it work now. One unhappy mother later and she’s found information online saying the same thing. I hooked her laptop up to the telly and she was able to watch her prog but not something she could do on her own.
A non techie colleague admitted to having a smart speaker in his bedroom when we quizzed the office about in home technology at the end of last year. Those of us with an idea of how these things work tried to dissuade him from doing so. He said that it was so convenient to be able to tell it to play Radio 4 so they could listen to the Today show whilst lying there. I said as opposed to an AM/FM radio which you leave tuned to Radio 4 and just press the button? He didn’t have much of an answer to that sadly.
The daughter has one. She know if her heating is working while at work (or on holiday). Good thing to know if you live where your pipes might freeze if the heating fails.
Dishwasher? Washing machine? Not a priority for connection. Refrigerator? Perhaps, considering ours has failed twice in the last 2 years (Motor controller and defroster heater), but it didn't alert us to the problem until the temperature had risen enough to spoil the food. Not so smart...
All thermostats have a frost-free mode that should mean the pipes never freeze.
I do have programmable thermostats, though these are not "connected". In most rooms, most of the time you either want the same kind of programme or have them at a minimal temperature. When we go on holiday the heating goes to night mode.
The risks of anything kind of home device that is connected to the internet generally far outweigh their benefits.
>All thermostats have a frost-free mode that should mean the pipes never freeze.
Not the case.
My (dumb) radiator thermostats have a frost setting, never used as I would like my rooms to be a bit warmer.
My (dumb) room stats only have power when the central heating is on and is a simple bimetallic strip.
My (dumb) boiler does have a frost stat, only to prevent the boiler itself freezing. This is the same as the stats in 'smart' combi boilers.
The controller is intelligent only so far as to run the preprogrammed heating/water cycle.
If you don't want the pipes to freeze then you have to either run the heating or install trace heating.
Personally, I would install trace heating on all pipes that are affixed to an exterior wall - the interior surface of a north facing wall exposed to the wind can get very cold even if the cavity has been insulated.
the robot vacuum is, for me, a definite buy. It runs every second night, or when I think it needs a bit of an extra scrubbing, and keeps on top of the dust and cat hair without me lifting a finger. And given it enjoys eating cables it also motivates me to tidy up regularly.
Also, voice controlled occasional lights because the genius who decided where to put the light switches in my home placed them at the end of long hallways, rather than the beginning. I can now shout at the house to turn them on, and if I leave the house having forgotten to turn one off a geofence turns them off automatically if I get far enough away.
Yup. I got annoyed at a device that failed - it was an easy fix but they;
- used horrible screws (with a warranty sticker over one of them - it had already lapsed).
- glued stuff down.
Once I'd warmed up the glue, was able to remove the component and replace with a £10 part. All fixed and working.
Agree - the last replacement battery I got for an iPhone was £20 - well, I could have bought it for that, but the local repair shop did a supply and fit for £15. Admittedly that was 4 years ago, but the phone is still working (it's a spare I keep in my car, with a cheap PAYG SIM, for emergencies should my wife or I forget to take our own with us). I need to make a call every <6 months to keep the SIM active, and the battery holds its charge for that time, too; I just need to remember to bring it in from the car 2/3 times a year to make a call and top up the charge...
I agree, I have been saying that for years, it ought to be a mandatory component of approval. End of life? Go public. If you don't, you're no longer allowed to sell devices until you comply. That, of course, also includes the ability to redirect management and remote control so that you can point it elsewhere to continue operation.
If the device depends on some server code, that ought to become part of the disclosure, otherwise the code in the IoT device is not that much use.
I originally thought this sould have a value limit so cheap things under, say, €50 would not have this mandate, but then I realised that mandating this would automatically result in a lot less rubbish being sold as well which would be beneficial in itself..
If you don't, you're no longer allowed to sell devices until you comply
That's no deterrent if the business isn't around anyway. And if you do plan to be around, easy to work around - "simply" licence a 3rd party (who happens to have been created just 6 months ago and is 100% owned by you) with a similar name to use your trademark logos etc. Want to cut off support and the endless drain on profits ? Just wind up the 3rd party.
Once a manufacturer stops offering updates? Good plan: that'd oblige Redmond et al to release the source code for any number of interesting things!
On second thoughts, I'm not sure the world is quite ready to see the machinations that underpin Vista. I'm not sure the world will ever be ready for that!
After I read elsewhere about a "smart" cutting board (the piece of wood you put beneath things to preserve both your knife's edge and your kitchen table), I now definitely know the "smart" fad will eventually conquer all items, even the most dumb ones.
How can you eat without a smart fork & knife telling you the calories and exact temperature of whatever you shove into your mouth? And of course, allow you to access them from any point on the planet because, well, you can. And it would be uncool not to be able to, wouldn't it. I'm sure the Joneses already have one.
"How can you eat without a smart fork & knife telling you the calories and exact temperature of whatever you shove into your mouth? And of course, allow you to access them from any point on the planet because, well, you can. And it would be uncool not to be able to, wouldn't it. I'm sure the Joneses already have one."
Ah, you want a return to the days when those who could afford them carried their own cutlery with them like a key chain :-)
I'm reminded of this IEEE article https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete. People with medical implants finding that they just switched off because the supplier no longer supported them, which is quite horrifying.
I think it is time for all companies to be forced to turn over their communication protocols and private keys for Smart/Connected/IoT connected devices to the Government, to be held in escrow. Plus any other information required to manage the device (a la GPL's requirement for build scripts). Note: I see the conflict here which might enable govt snooping - but if you can't log in to the device, what good are the protocols alone?
There should be a guaranteed minimum time that the devices is supported. Legislated. And if the device fails to be supported (either by the company going broke, or just deciding to turn it off), then these should be made public. If (for example) there is a patent around the device, then, the government should be able to release that document during the patent time if the company no longer supports the device. Or automatically at the end of the patent.
If there isn't a patent, then, whenever "no longer supported".
This is over and above any other "right to repair" laws.
How to enforce this? Well, we can already force retailers and etailers to collect Sales/VAT/GST taxes, a special punishment level tax for anything that does not comply. No one will stock the device is they might be held liable for 1000 times the cost of the device.
Dagg, F.
Take a look at the Arduino ESP32 boards, they are truly wonderful little miracles. My Dad ( who's in his 80s! ) plays with Arduino kit a lot as something to keep his brain active show me his ESP32, he was building little remote controlled devices. You basically a tiny machine with a tiny LCD, bluetooth and wifi on a device the size of your thumb powered by 5v. Incredible for little fun projects like home automation with the advanatge that the code is 100% yours and no interference from some manufacturer or fear of being cut off.
Hive Cameras. and other products, which are being turned into bricks from this summer. Hive is switching off our devices for us, for so-called "environmental reasons". Because ending a product's life artificially early, and forcing a replacement (Non-Hive) product to be manufactured, purchased and installed is great way to achieve Net Zero.
-mobailey
Maybe she was upgraded and no longer prints out everything that used to make the snivelling, miserable coward happy every day?
That's the end of my joke ... Originally when we started making devices we built everything with hardware and virtually never saw any of the issues that we have today - yes, there was one problem when a circuit board died, or a compressor started to leak. And the manufacturer would say that it's no longer available ... so you have to buy a new device. This is just the way it all works, forcing everyone to keep buying devices, not keep using them.
Sorry, not really very funny. My wife might not be smartest spark about some things but she's got talents I don't have the patience for and with it my full respect. I'd never put her down or insult her for any reason. She puts up with me, so she's invested in a life long hard project!
Having a definite EOL of a tool/machine is a bad idea and I think one that is a little bit incompatible with the human psyche.
Back as far as the caveman days we would try to re-purpose and get as long life out of our tools as we could*. I think to have someone else telling us that we need to throw it out after a certain time is damaging to us.
* Actually, what separates us from other "tool making" species is the fact that we are the only ones to start fixing and passing down tools to our children. Material inheritance is a fairly unique part us.
For turning the veg patch, I recovered and cleaned up an old rotovator. Luckily the engine wasn't in bad shape, a new air filter (the previous didn't exist) and complete strip down and clean and it's working again.
Me? I'll be half a century next year. The thing is as old as I am.
If it continues to function, why not make use of it?
Likewise, I have an old washing machine (late 80s) that I fixed by replacing the motor capacitors. And my (18 year old) fridge? Thermostat failed, so I got a replacement from Amazon for €12 and rigged it up. It's a little too long, but it works and that's the important part.
It seems, to me, to be really shitty to be forced to dump something because a small part failed. Whether an actual thing or a software thing, it doesn't matter. The price of so called smart gizmos, I want to look at a lifespan touching double digits (at least, with support), not merely double years.
I've been looking in the supermarkets for possible replacements for my washing machine. I'm seriously nonplussed. Everything is electronic, intelligent, and tries to jump through hoops in order to "be more efficient". Well, you know my idea of efficient isn't measured by the water consumption, it's measured by how long until the motherboard silently craps out and a replacement either isn't available or costs as much as a new machine. Because it's utterly pointless saving € on water if it'll cost €€€ in a new machine because... [actually, if that was the case, I'd tear it down and see if there was potential for replacing the dead controller with an ESP32 or the like]
While I appreciate your repair skills and will usually do the same, sometimes replacing items is the better option. Those old Fridges, washing machines and PCs are sometimes so inefficient, it's cheaper and better in the long term to scrap than and replace with modern, more efficient kit. Is it worth running an old PC at a few 100W power consumption as a home firewall or spending £30 on RasberryPi, or more on a NUC-like device that uses a couple of Watts?
Oh, my main machines are an Android tablet and a Pi running RISC OS. I very rarely turn on the PC for exactly the reason you give - it sucks way too much power.
I did a calculation a while back and worked out that the Pi, which is fetching data from an old La Crosse weather station every five minutes, can do it's thing in the background always on for about an entire season for the amount of electricity the PC consumes if I run it for a long day (say 9am to 9pm).
>Those old Fridges, washing machines and PCs are sometimes so inefficient,
Fun thing is once you disconnect from the grid, things get turned on their heads.
With solar panels producing more electricity than many households typically use, but with no real incentive to sell the excess back to the grid, it doesn't really matter if the washing machine is 20 years old. Likewise, with solar-thermal panels you get lashings of hot water, so having devices that can actually take a hot water feed (with solar-thermal you effectively put the water heater directly behind the machine so the machine gets 95C water almost immediately) becomes more useful.
BTW it is worth looking up the specifications of those 20 year old machines and comparing them with modern machines. When I did this for my washing machine and tumble drier I was surprised just how small the changes in real world energy consumption were. Yes the new machines had the super eco programmes but if your weekly family washing is 5+ loads do you want each wash to take circa 3 hours or under 90 minutes? similar considerations apply to the tumble drier and dishwasher.
As for the old freezer, just remember chest freezers have always been more energy efficient than upright.
My dad's answer was to throw the malfunctioning thing into a bowl of petrol for 24hrs (or an aged bowl of degreaser consisting mainly of aged grease). This worked well a lot of the time including on his 50-year-old watch. I guess that nowadays if it survives 5 minutes longer than the warranty period it was over-engineered and could have been made cheaper.
There's been a 'smart' meter at my unit for a year or so. It's never reported any readings, which allows Octopus to wildly overestimate the electricity use.
The only smart option I'd want on a washing machine is a camera so I could watch the washing going round and round. I find that really relaxing. But they don't offer it.
>The only smart option I'd want on a washing machine is a camera so I could watch the washing going round and round. I find that really relaxing.
For the full effect you will also want the audio.
I had a quiet smile at a friend's neighbour this weekend. They aren't allowed to smoke in the house, so they smoke in the garage, for a reason I didn't ask about, the washing machine and tumble drier are situated in the garage, he had a comfy chair situated directly in front of them where he could watch them and the street...
unfortunately, smart meters have finally managed to become irresistable. They've been pesting us over their installation for the last 8 years at least, we generally ignored all the shiny pieces they pushed through the door. This still works, although over the last 2 - 4 months they have becoming insistant, i.e. spamming us with text messages and using the usual catch of 'your free! installation! appointment! is on...'. Which we also ignore. And yes, if they turn up on the door, at some point, I will - very politely - tell them to continue their work elsewhere but... but, sooner or later, like with all things in life (car insurance, online banking, etc.) they will squeeze us to the point that their un-meter-service will be so much more expensive that we will yield. You can only afford to be eccentric, if you can afford it and the drive for profit is relentless.
> Which we also ignore. And yes, if they turn up on the door, at some point, I will - very politely - tell them to continue their work elsewhere
I had an engineer visit pre-lockdown, they got their tools out of the van and the skies opened, it was now too risky to play around with electricity so he packed them away and my meter 'upgrade' postponed, I'm still waiting to be offered a date when the engineer will visit again.
The big reason that the government promotes "smart" meters - they all can be remotely commanded to turn off the power. In the event of a power shortage (as nearly happened last year) they can ensure that the "important" people still have power while the plebs freeze.
Prior to "smart" meters the remote switching off of consumers could only be done on a fairly large area at a time (as happened in the miners strike). This could leave some "important" people without power.
(Another reason that some people like "smart" meters - if they have a mate with access to the meter data then they can work out which houses are unoccupied - makes stealing much easier.)
>The big reason that the government promotes "smart" meters
And the energy companies like them as they can remotely switch them to prepaid mode without gaining access or the explicit consent of the bill payer. Have a direct debit payment fail and you are on dangerous ground - hence why there has been a rapid increase (several hundreds of thousands) in the last few months of homes on prepaid meters...
Most likely there will be caveats in the contract stating that "smart" functions are not part of the base level device and may not continue to function for numerous reasons including but limited to changes made by 3rd parties, eg the YouTube app on the "smart" TV.
On the other hand, the legalese in contracts and warranties are not necessarily enforceable unless and until they are tested in court.
I never buy smart shit, but the problem is that in time nothing else will be available, because the ever-reducing lifespan of devices is in the manufacturers' interest and governments don't generally legislate against it. And it also allows the manufactures to collect all that lovely data as well!
But what exactly is the the point of a smart washing machine or diswasher? They are't going to load themselves, are they? So how is it any more difficlt to turn the dial and press the button once you've loaded them? Many washing machines even have a delay option if you want them to start later (e.g.in the middle of the night).
I think I read somewhere that if you have a Samsung smart washing machine and Samsung smart dryer that the first could communicate weight etc. of laundry to the latter and adjust program accordingly.
Seemed pretty pointless to me though since your not necessarily taking everything from washing machine and putting in dryer.
If I remember correctly at least two different thermostats for electrical heating have been discontinued already.
Should I buy offline version that lasts 20 years and lacks fancy features or one with fancy features that might work for 3 years and then manufacturer pulls the plug. If you don't get hacked before that.
Ah yes, the "future technology" , which is shite compared to the 'old' technology!
I've lived in flats at various times with gas heating, and with no gas and everything electric. Never felt the need for a 'smart' anything. In the UK at least, it doesn't get much below freezing normally so the -32 scenario doesn't really apply.
Well, the EU have been making noises for a few years about making devices that last longer and are supported for longer and will be repairable outside of warranty. I'm not sure exactly what they have actually done so far, but the standardisation of power connectors is a start.
I'm glad the article mentioned LG. They made a damned fine cellphone but decided that after 1-2 security updates, users weren't going to get any more. When I finally replaced my last LG, it had been over three years since the last updates. I suppose the security-aware cellphone user would simply dump the phone for a newer mode. And LG's response seems to have been "Too much trouble to provide updates. We're leaving the market." I'll be thinking twice before buying another smart-anything from LG.
... update your device. The traditional trade-in cycle (autos and such) to keep up with the Jonses is no longer as effective as it once was. I have a number of cars and trucks which still run just fine with 20 (or more than 40) years on them. This will simply not do to keep new product rolling out of the factory doors.
The solution, which many have settled on, is to sunset the software. And that requires connectivity. My 25 year old truck (the oldest I own with true embedded s/w) still runs fine. Even if the current version of its embedded o/s has long since been surpassed. As long as it doesn't have to keep up with the latest version of JavaScript, no one will be the wiser. Meanwhile, my (32 bit) Samsung fondleslab is hopelessly out of date. And increasingly receives popups to the effect that certain web sites (the advert pop-ups actually) will not function with older browser versions. And yet, it soldiers on.
I was reading an article about the new Sony Walkmans recently on some mainstream tech site. Lots of praise of all the lovely features, including Android 12. But no discussion of software support promises. This is typical.
To the extent that the tech press is meant to help consumers make purchasing decisions, lack of discussion of this is a failure. Things have improved with phones, with many manufacturers making explicit promises up front.
Well done to the Reg for writing about it. Please tell your friends:)
agree with this, reviews for tech should clearly state warranty, firmware/os and any other support. plus a company should have a start rating for previous activity or poor support.
Unfortunately I fear reviewers would scared they would have to by stuff and also be sued for defamation even if they would win.
99% of review on the web are paid for promotions, not always obvious when reviewers start with company X sent over this for us.
> But no discussion of software support promises
Saw the article; I guess in this case security requirements aren't necessarily the same as for a communication device like a phone. I don't even know if those Android Walkmen have their own SIM cards, or if they need to connect through an existing WiFi network, in which case they would be (somewhat) protected by the network's firewall.
That been said, knowing how things are, I am to assume that they will never see the slightest Android update. Because else it would had been mentioned as a marketing argument. It's the general law stating that if it isn't expressly mentioned, you don't get it.
"To the extent that the tech press is meant to help consumers make purchasing decisions, lack of discussion of this is a failure. Things have improved with phones, with many manufacturers making explicit promises up front."
For many people, their only "main stream media" contact with tech and gadgets in the UK is The Gadget Show. Apart from the new format not being as good as the old one, they NEVER talk about the security implications of the smart devices they are pushing. But then they wouldn't, would they? They might no longer get all the freebies for the "prize draw" they do every week the phone call fees of which probably is a significant portion of their shows profits.
>To the extent that the tech press is meant to help consumers make purchasing decisions, lack of discussion of this is a failure.
I've made a habit of adding a suitable comment to such articles.
Example 1: laptop review that doesn't assess the built-in webcam, microphone and audio - the world has been using Zoom et al for two years now...
Example 2: Mobile phones: channels supported, peripheral device support - does it support ANT+, which point release of Bluetooth, which WiFi standards and how many inbuilt antennas etc.
Purchased a Sony TV, especially so could watch iPLayer on it
2 years later, Sony withdrew support !,
now use a roku, much cheaper
The car I was looking at,
needed an app on the phone to open car door / turn it on,
how long would that be supported
Another car I was looking at , it had minimal displays, but uses your tablet
again how many years before car is no longer able to run with my tablet !
The car I have
each time it goes in for a service, it gets a software update
last one made it incompatible with the old apple OS on the phone, need a new phone !
Ahhhhhhh
A friend of mine use to have a medium size Chevrolet car.
Her driver-side seatbelt broke after a few years of use.
No replacements were available. They are left/right handed so moving passenger side would not work.
She had to junk the car else it would fail annual inspection.
She bought a Toyota to replace the Chev.
Moral of the story: it's not just electronics that count. It's the manufacturer.
I find it hard to believe that a vehicle was arbitrarily scrapped like that, did nobody consider searching for parts available from a breakers.
My truck, despite its 15 years of age, still has common parts available new (OEM & aftermarket) & from breakers from across two or more different model names & brands.
This depends how well you can predict the future when making a buying decision. Some models have lot of spare parts after 20 years.
And some models require that you have room for storing 4 similar cars you have to first find somewhere. To have enough parts you can keep one of them running. Would be much cheaper just to scrap the thing.
>did nobody consider searching for parts available from a breakers.
Life was so much easier back in the 80's, you visited a couple of local scrapyards, locate vehicles with the part you required, assessed vehicle condition and part for damage and wear and if happy remove and haggle over price (hoping you had sufficient cash in your wallet).
Now I have to look up the part(s) I want, to get the part number(s), then visit 'auction' sites to find parts that have already been removed from unspecified and unseen vehicles...
Not saying it isn't useful to be able to effectively visit every scrap yard in the country and get a price before you've committed, just that it isn't quite as straight-forward as some try and make out.
"The car I have
each time it goes in for a service, it gets a software update"
My motorcycle gets over-the-air updates now.
My eye always twitches slightly when I turn the key and it says,
"Hi, there is a new firmware update, would you like to install it now or postpone?"
If I postpone it installs during the maintenance window you have to stipulate when setting up the bike in the app.
To be fair it has never bricked the bike but on occasion I've ridden off in the morning looking at a dash that is completely different to the way it looked yesterday.
>The car I was looking at,
needed an app on the phone to open car door / turn it on,
how long would that be supported
This is not quite as trivial as some would believe.
The app which would have been released when the car was launched, which we could reasonably expect to work on 'currently' shipping versions of iOS/Android. Support will be needed (over 20 years?) to both maintain that app so that it works on new releases of iOS/Android and that the updated version will continue to work on previous releases and that the iOS/Andriod stores continue to make available these older OS versions available for (new) download.
I can see many people deciding to use old phones for many of these smart devices, particularly where the device/vehicle is used by multiple people with the old handset effectively becoming a physical key..
The software on my sony tv is garbage - laggy, buggy and periodically gets stuck in a crash loop requiring a factory reset. I ended up buying a cheap amazon stick to plug in which works way better.
Too much tech on cars is annoying. I was looking at new cars and many of them now have a touchscreen interface with no physical control buttons for things like the A/C. Why would I want to faff with a touchscreen if I'm trying to change the temperature while on the the move? With a physical button I can easily learn exactly where it is and change it instantly without needed to look. I ended up buying an older car to stave off having to deal with this rubbish for a few more years.
10 years
10 YEARS!
OK credit for 10 years (3x more than others) but Miéle need to think again.
Our last replaced washer and dryer were 23 and 24 years (still worked but were pushing it)
Current machines in UK are 1 and 2 yes old; those in France are errr.. 20+ (but only 10 wear/use wise)
The newest dishwasher is 'smart' but I cannot really say it adds anything to function (apart from telling me I need to buy powder/rinse aid on the way home)
And it's not always still the long established brand that has grown many years of trust. It's been sold multiple times, initially it might just be new owners of the entire operation and maybe watered down the quality a little but, eventually, it's just the bean counters selling off the brand name itself to some Chinese company making cheap tat and selling it on the back of the brand name.
I remember seeing Poloroid branded TVs and wonder if that is related the camera brand of old. the logo and packaging certainly reminded me strongly of the "real" brand, but the TVs were dirt cheap. Either Poloroid have sold out or there's a strong case for "brand stealing", ie using something similar in a different market to piggyback on an existing brand.
>appliances that use same parts across multiple brands.
I'mm actually happy with my Siemens washing machine using many of the same parts as the cheaper Bosch and Neff branded machines from the same manufacturer, it means I get cheap parts combined with an easier to repair machine.
Aside: Generally the longer lasting machines are designed in a way that expects an engineer to have to replace parts, however, when the drum bearing needed replacing it was simpler and cheaper to replace the entire factory-assembled drum assembly than just replace the bearings.
The way I see it, if a product requires a cloud system to work, then I expect it to collect data from me, and to start losing features after a few years.
The producer will try to convince me this is not the case, which is expected. Unfortunately, absent any serious legislation on the topic, their assurances carry very little weight.
By itself, such an offer wouldn't be outrageous, and might even be acceptable, if it was priced accordingly.
Unfortunately, such products tend to be priced even more than corresponding disconnected products that don't slurp data and can be reasonably expected to work for 10+ years.
So, I don't particularly feel moral outrage, but I'm simply not buying. It's economics.
And the e-waste problem goes on top of that argument.
Most warranties are in the 100,000 miles OR 5 years.
This will include software, so you should assume that a cars software will no longer be updated after 5 years. Again it may if the unit is still in production but given the development and the fact you often see old car service computers running windows XP or even 98 i doubt very much that car companies will see the need.
This is one of the things that really needs to change, cars now days last 20-30 years quite easily, if car companies do not want to support thing (especially security fixes) then they should release the source code and provide ways to update for home users.
It interesting that many of the early Apps did not have the ability to disconnect or wipe a user account so the previous user could actually control the car, even now it has become a convoluted route to get this done if you buy on the second-hand market.
Also note this applies to service items that are listed the lifetime of the car, (like gearbox oil), the lifetime is 100,000 miles not the actual lifetime the car is used.
Basically all car companies care nothing about their old cars, once you no longer use their network for servicing etc.
Never understood the appeal of smart kitchen devices. Fair enough, your smart TV enables playback from other devices. Smart thermostats and lights can be controlled from elsewhere. Nothing earth shatteringly useful, but can be useful none the less. Smart kitchen devices are a different matter entirely. You have to be physically present to put stuff in or take stuff out of any oven, washing machine, tumble dryer or dishwasher. What's the point of app control? One major downside is it they introduce potential security issues. There is also the problem with any cloud based IoT device of what happens when the servers go down, whether through a deliberate choice of the company, or bankruptcy. Do you suddenly have a device that is essentially a very expensive (and heavy) doorstop?
OK, there are exceptions. It *could* be handy to start your washing machine when you are out of the house (depending on program length) so it's nearly ready when you get home, or you could start a slow cooker early so the food is ready for you to eat later. Or your fridge could track what you take out and order replacements. But the first two can be done with a bit of forethought and a timer.. The fridge is easier. Just look in it, see what's missing and order it. No need to spend hundreds on a new fridge with a screen, CPU and internet connection..
My fridge is a 10 year old Samsung one. Based on the age, it's probably going to fail sooner rather than later, but the only problem we've got at the moment is a couple of the attachments have broken, and we can't buy replacements. The fridge is perfectly usable apart from that. Can the same be said of an IoT fridge bought ten years ago, or have the servers it inevitably relies on been switched off?
My fridge and washing machine are LG, but they don't do anything useful except tell me that the load of washing is done, or the fridge door is open. I can't adjust the fridge temperature, I can see the set temperature but not the actual temperature inside the fridge. I can't start washing jobs remotely either, so kinda pointless.
Our Lifx light globe still seems to be supported after many years, but only gets switched on once in a blue moon for lighting effects out on the deck.
We have an Intel NUC as a HTPC connected to the projector, smart TVs aren't great after a period of time.
The BlackBean is used to send infrared signals to our split system aircon on the wall, to simulate the remote.
The main smart devices we use regularly are power switches, we have them for fans in the stables, barley boiler, electric farm kart charger timer, and the electric fence energizer, so I can turn the fence off remotely if I'm out in a paddock and need to fix the electric fence. It would be a bummer if these devices stopped working. On the to-do list is to set up a separate wifi SSID and segregated VLAN for these devices in case of compromise.
There are a few manufacturers that do things differently. My next outdoor jacket will be a Berghaus because when the zip pull went on my current one (bought about 4 - 5 years ago from a charity shop) they replaced it and returned the garment within 10 days, total cost to me the one-way postage. (And if I can't find my next one in a charity shop I might even buy new!) My next toaster might well be a Dualit because, though they won't repair free for ever, they do at least make spare parts available to the public. But I fear that for such companies, the benefit of good will might well be less than the cost of reduced repeat sales. So we do need the law to get up to date on what is a reasonable length of product life to demand as a right.
If I was better at electronics, I would hack things to make them last longer. Repair things that went wrong. Much like Dave Murray 8 bit guy on YouTube restoration videos and others.
Wish I was better at law, because home grown gadgets and devices and hacked ones are technically feasible with the right skills (see above). But while there's a lot of skill and community support for the technical side, not so much for laws legislation that goes with such devices. We need to be masters of electronics and law.
Further to the above. I'd love to see mini factories making this stuff in every town and city. People producing the stuff, repairing,hacking making new things- as masters of electronics and law and any other discipline needed to make it happen.
Because right now, as the article suggests, and to echo many commentators on here, big corporations can suck with support, such a disappointing business model to get us to want to keep buying too soon.
Built in obsolescence is rife and with the speed the tech evolves your new smart device will not only become a dead Smart device probaly 13 hours after the the warranty officially expires anyway hence why manufacturers dont want to spend endless time on updating software and apps for functionality that will simply die.
As for smart TV apps My old Sony bedroom TV was a first gen smart device and the apps built in for platforms which simply no longer exist is actually eyewatering. So much money wasted to include media delivery apps which simply dont exist now.
I am no Sky /Murdoch Fanboy but being a subscriber since 1997 at least it sort of works, Even if content is def getting Sketchy (i also use Netflix and Prime but only watch late evenings (as well as Paramount now as its free for Sky) but for how much longer i dont know as its getting very samey now.
"As for smart TV apps My old Sony bedroom TV was a first gen smart device and the apps built in for platforms which simply no longer exist is actually eyewatering."
Same applies to my LG BluRay Player. Although I did buy it second hand and the "smart app" things was nothing to do with my choice of device. It still plays BluRay discs which was the reason for the purchase and cost less than the still available at the time non-smart players :-)
I mentioned this on El Reg some years ago, that all the "smart" devices in your home should connect to a central security hub. Something that you have control over, which has its own long term support. it wouldn't matter how flaky the security is on the scattering of devices you have, as the central hub forces your local policy on it. It could also intercept the outgoing packets and strip any or all of the snooping data the devices are calling home with.
Trusting the slew of IoT manufacturers to get it right and keep the wheels from falling off, is not a great plan. Better you assume they are a pile of crap, security wise, and force them through something far more secure that you have control over.
Okay, yes. My plan has a rather huge flaw. The central security hub, that all IoT must chat through has not been developed, nor are the many manufacturers of fiddly things going to get onboard with it. They just might though, if said development then allowed them to drop the need for software security support and hand all that over to the developers of the central security hub for IoT.
Interesting idea.
The problem, at the moment, is all the manufacturers have switched to secure (https) connections, so I can't even MITM them any more to control & limit them. But they aren't actually making them any more secure, more reliable or longer lasting! So we have the worst of both worlds at the moment.
Maybe some standardised hub would help. Until then I just have most of the devices on an SSID without internet access. But there are increasing number of either buggy or deliberately designed devices which don't work unless they can talk to the outside world! So, as things get replaced, they are increasingly having to be moved to the "talk to the outside world but not to anything else in the house" SSID.
>all the "smart" devices in your home should connect to a central security hub. Something that you have control over, which has its own long term support.
That's consumer friendly, it would mean people could use devices from different manufacturers and thus avoid vendor lock-in etc.
If government(s) were to require this way of working, I expect we would see the IOT/smart industry getting together and hammering out Standards, just as we've seen in computer networking...
subjective assessment, though correct, me thinks. Generally. Because I can see there is 'some' benefit to updates, apparently some quirks and bugs are removed when you update firmware, and get new features. A good case would be... I dunno... updating Windows 10 to Windows 11 ?! ;)
Multiven sued Cisco for this very reason….to put an end to OEMs prematurely forcing hardware obscolescence and putting consumers at risk of cyberattacks by denying them access to security updates and bug fixes. If your “smart” gadget maker denies you software updates, cite this case as a precedent and they will promptly make it available.
Bottomline, if you are licensed to use a software forever, the OEM is legally bound to make updates available forever!
https://multiven.com/media/advocacy/files/Multiven,%20Inc.%20v.%20Cisco%20Systems,%20Inc.-dec2008.pdf
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
