back to article Native Americans urge Apache Software Foundation to ditch name

Natives in Tech, a US-based non-profit organization, has called upon the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) to change its name, out of respect for indigenous American peoples and to live up to its own code of conduct. In a blog post, Natives in Tech members Adam Recvlohe, Holly Grimm, and Desiree Kane have accused the ASF of …

  1. andy 103
    Pint

    MongoDB next?

    No explanation necessary.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: MongoDB next?

      Mongo only pawn in game of life.

      1. Kev99 Silver badge

        Re: MongoDB next?

        I think you boys have had enough beans.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MongoDB next?

      F-king Mongorians, arways ruining the shitty chicken.

    3. Aleph0
      Facepalm

      Re: MongoDB next?

      Funnily enough MongoDB always reminded me of Flash Gordon, it never occurred to me that some could find it derogatory until it was explained to me why...

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: MongoDB next?

        Assuming WindowLickerDB will upset someone in Redmond

    4. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: MongoDB next?

      candygram for Mr mongo.... Candygram for Mr Mongo?

      1. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: MongoDB next?

        Mongo LIKE candy!

    5. Zola
      Unhappy

      Re: MongoDB next?

      Makes me wonder when will they be coming for Devo.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDl_R8Zp2E

  2. ecofeco Silver badge

    Bit ridiculous

    Tempest in a teapot.

    If someone named one of the greatest computer systems in the world after me and mine, and wasn't a rapacious corporation, I would be proud.

    1. SkippyBing

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      Exactly, it's not as if they were using the name Apache as an insult.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Not to mention that its name development had no Indian context whatsoever, it started as "A patchy server" (AFAIK, it's been a while).

        THB, I'm all for respecting culture and all, but it's getting a tad beyond rediculous. God help us if someone finds a way to be upset with the use of the word "the". Downvote all you want, but I think it's time the profesionally insulted take a break from finding new things to moan about.

        I would rather focus on the disrespect for their land and culture than having to find a new and likely very contrived name for a product that is respected the world over. If there was a tribe called "Windows", OK, I could understand that.

        Dammit, almost blew this week's rant quota in one go.

        1. Arthur Kater :-D ☺

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          Please don't involve God in this as it is a misappropriation of God....

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Please don't mention G*d, he gets pissed off when people use his name and the last thing we need is a flood following the plague

            1. Joe W Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              1. Isn't God female (I think I saw a documentation in the late 90s, what was it called... ah... "Dogma")

              2. Ask the Califormians about floods and water - I also recall that there were recent floods somewhere in Asia, in Australia, and 2021 in Europe (somehere in Germany or Belgium or that region)

              1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                >. Ask the Califormians about floods and water - ..., in Australia, and 2021 in Europe (somehere in Germany or Belgium

                That's punishment for their sins.

                California is notorious for wearing clothing of different fabrics, Australians throw shrimps on the barbie, Germans love a pork sausage and we don't need to mention what Belgians do.

                1. TimMaher Silver badge
                  Pint

                  Re: what Belgians do.

                  They drink wonderful beer and eat the worlds best frites.

                  I am in Wolvertem at the moment.

                  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                    Re: what Belgians do.

                    Maybe there's a lost commandment against putting mayonnaise on them?

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: what Belgians do.

                      Well, there's also curry ketchup but you have to be closer to the German or Dutch border for it :)

              2. David Hicklin Bronze badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                > recent floods somewhere in Asia, in Australia, and 2021 in Europe

                Well we had the drought here last year in UK/Europe.

                1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  Drought and floods, the latter especially south of the Alps and east of France.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  Oh, don't worry, you'll still face a hosepipe ban in the UK. 'twas ever so..

                  1. jake Silver badge

                    Re: Bit ridiculous

                    What's wrong with hosepipe, you hoser?

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                North Belgium and the South of the Netherlands.

                It was a mess - I've not seen it this bad in almost 4 decades (I used to live there) and it's not certain we may not see a repeat :(.

              4. cmdrklarg
                Coat

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                *** "Isn't God female"

                Nope, God is me. I know this because when I talk to God I find that I'm talking to myself.

                -- Mine is the one with the broken halo

              5. Grogan Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                Yes, she's black. I'm waiting for the day the Americans find out (they don't believe me... they start shooting guns when anyone tries to tell em :-) )

              6. The Dark Side Of The Mind (TDSOTM)
                Angel

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                "1. Isn't God female"

                Helloween stated that about that same time...

                https://youtu.be/15G7Lpbidos?t=22

            2. EarthDog

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Every year God smites the Bible Belt. It's not that he hates those people. He just doesn't approve of thier "lifestyle".

            3. Trigun

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              He also gets quite annoyed if you avert your eyes:

              (God) "What are you doing now?"

              (King Arthur) "I'm averting my eyes, Oh Lord"

              (God) "Well don't."

          2. Ideasource

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Unfortunately the only one who has jurisdiction to claim misappropriation, is God. Which would require God to submit to the authority of a court system in order to be recognized.

            Of course by submitting to a court system, creates an undeniable physical demonstration that God has abdicated his role and authority, promoting the courts to the role of God.

            It does not surprise me that God does not show up to have a problem with this use.

            Probably doesn't want to bow down to an lowly human system of pseudo Justice.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              "It does not surprise me that God does not show up"

              Doesn't surprise me, either, seeing as god does not exist outside the fertile minds of shamans, and the less-fertile minds of the easily brainwashed and subjugated.

              1. Adair Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                Good thing we're all entitled to our own opinions, and get to take responsibility for them too.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                Your fedora slipped.

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  What fedora? I'm a Slacker.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Bit ridiculous

                    Jake being a disgusting bigot again. Nice prejudice. stick to articles about IR35 or drop dead.

            2. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              I think it's because people have been saying it wrong. It's pronounced Jod.

              1. sipke

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                Jod. I'm stealing this!

          3. Bitbeisser

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Yeah, that old lady gets already involved in far too many affairs....

        2. Joe W Silver badge

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          Yeah, I'm a grumpy old man, but I wonder: when I was young, Indians (ok, First Nations People) were the epitome of courage and generosity, being screwed over by the White Man (who came across the sea, and brought pain and misery). I can understand that having them painted in the typical spaghetti western (am I allowed to say that still?) manner is stupid (and oh so childish), so there is that aspect. Not being too happy with that is understandable.

          But then I don't see Germans complain about how they are depicted in Raiders of the Lost Ark (ok, that's a stupid comparison, I know).

          As always: this is not black and white, and I personally find this a stupid complaint and discussion, but this does not mean I cannot see some grounds for complaints.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            I once had to justify to a Student Union that a showing of Die Hard didn't portray racial stereotypes because the Germans were (spoiler alert) - just crooks not terrorists

            1. DuncanLarge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              What about the evil brit?

              Why are we always the evil masterminds :D

              Is it because we make it look good?

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                "Why are we always the evil masterminds :D"

                For the same reason late-night infomercials on TV are often hosted by somebody with a supposed Brit accent[0]. It stands out to the intended audience.

                [0] Daft thing is many of the accents are faked ... and a good portion of them are not Brit, but rather Aussie, NZ, SA or other ... and the faked ones are often about as bad as Dick Van Dyke's in Mary Poppins. Quite jarring to people who can tell the difference.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  Almost every single documentary seems to be narrated by someone with a British accent. I guess it's BBC's (or David Attenborough's) legacy in the flesh.

                  Also, whenever a new character with some rank or knowledge shows up in the Star Wars franchise, you can bet they'll have a (somewhat) British accent. Older Luke and Yoda being the most notable exceptions. Again, I guess Sir Alec Guinness traced a path that's hard to leave for the newer generations.

                  1. keith_w

                    Re: Bit ridiculous

                    Not Sir Alec - Peter Cushing as Grand Moff Tarkin.

                2. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  Dick Van Dyke is awesome though, so I think he can be forgiven his novelty Cockney accent.

              2. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                This should explain it nicely.

                https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/29/jaguar-super-bown-commercial-video/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9zZWFyY2guYnJhdmUuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADczFdiD6azwCe_MQxy6i2yfv4AsoXhgqC69ThjFEP1KzSwLyf4s9alPrOH8oMd7bn2QCvXjmcdbw3Q_IsM4-5cXaWJ1z2xK2dpArkRJGbDfJgXMqC0wlc4yvWlj6XMGWa_cewZi06I0N1roM4R7PbxUUK6Q1-1O8mkjG3XYIsLH

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  This is a tech mag - you know that (a) you can use tags to turn a URL into a meaningful reference and, more importantly, that (b) you can usually omit the "?" and everything that follows as that tends to contain tracking data, no?

                  https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/29/jaguar-super-bown-commercial-video/ would have worked fine.

          2. jmch Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            "I can understand that having them painted in the typical spaghetti western (am I allowed to say that still?) manner is stupid (and oh so childish)"

            Bit of movie pedantry here, but the largely offensive stereotypical depiction of native Americans in movies was down to the 'John Wayne' / Lone Ranger-type movies of the 50s and 60s. The term "spaghetti western" specifically refers to westerns produced by Italians, particularly the Sergio Leone directed Clint Eastwood ones, magnificently scored by Ennio Morricone. These were focused on a different era, and the frontier wars with Mexico, with nary a Native American in sight. I'm not sure if it was more offensive to remove Native Americans altogether from 'spaghetti westerns', or if this was more accurate in that specific historical / geographical context.

            1. EarthDog

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Sphagehtti Westerns where they had Romani play the Mexicans

              1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                ete unt domus?

                1. Anomalous Cowturd
                  Headmaster

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  Re: "ete unt domus?"

                  Domum! Um.

                  1. The Dark Side Of The Mind (TDSOTM)
                    Boffin

                    Re: Bit ridiculous

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_ite_domum

              2. Claptrap314 Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                Which is wrong because why? The "spaghetti" in "Spaghetti Western" is a reference to the fact that the director (and I think the production company) were Italian, and the movies were filmed in Italian.

                You ALWAYS hire people living nearby when filming. Should they be required to fly folks in from Mexico?

                1. Roland6 Silver badge

                  Re: Bit ridiculous

                  >Should they be required to fly folks in from Mexico?

                  That's the Woke requirement. Someone failed to understand art is art not real life. I'm waiting for the Woke brigade to demand that Hamlet can only be performed by Danish actors and as for the Prince...

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              "I'm not sure if it was more offensive to remove Native Americans altogether from 'spaghetti westerns', or if this was more accurate in that specific historical / geographical context."

              They were probably more offensive to Mexicans :-)

              (We don' need no steenkin'badges gringo!)

            3. A. Coatsworth Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Then again, you don't often see Mexicans bitching because of the way how Tuco or the Rojo brothers present them in these movies.

              Historically Latin Americans have been somewhat more thick-skinned regarding this kind of portrayals (lots of people over here still love The Three Caballeros, for example), but this is a fight we are starting to lose too.

          3. DuncanLarge

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            > being screwed over by the White Man

            Ah if they want to have Apache change its name, maybe they can stop referring to "the white man"? We white people have many cultures and languages and simply lumping every white race in with every other is, a bit old fashioned and dare I say it, offensive?

            I bet they wont do that will they. :D

            1. Drew Scriver

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              To add to the confusion, "white" skin turns out to be a hue of red...

              Put your hand under a paint color scanner the next time you visit a hardware or home improvement store and you'll get the exact Pantone color or RGB ratio.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                "Put your hand ::snip:: you'll get the exact Pantone color"

                For your hand. Your forearm, elbow, bicep and shoulder will all be different.

                So will four more different spots on your hand ...

              2. schermer

                Re: Bit ridiculous

                There are a few languages that got that correct.

                The colour of "whites" is described with a word meaning colourless / translucent. Of course in the current stream of idiocy that must be replaced by the word meaning "white" as a colour (something between RAL 9002 and RAL 9003).

          4. tiggity Silver badge

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            @Joe W upvote for the Maiden ref

          5. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            rest assured that once we sort out the Indians, the Apaches, woman de-appreciation in speech and writing, notwithstanding all other burning issues of this planet, we shall get back to the highly distorted image of the German volk in the Raiders of the Lost Ark and in other so-called works of art. And the Belgians. And Bulgarians. What, you thought we'd forget about the Bulgarians?! Armageddon days are here, again.

            1. The Indomitable Gall

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Seems to me that Germans don't have a problem with Nazis being portrayed as homocidal, myth-believig luantics. Because THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE. Notice that the Indiana Jones films have lunatics at the top of a very rigid hierarchy.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          Their own FAQ says otherwise, so I'll take their word over yours, sorry :)

          "Co-founder Brian Behlendorf first came up with the name “Apache” for the server. The name “Apache” was chosen out of reverence and appreciation for the people and tribes who refer to themselves as “Apache”.

          As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members of the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a ‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” story grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend."

          https://www.apache.org/apache-name/

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Their own FAQ rewrites history:

            Check out their ORIGINAL website http://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html#name

            1. EarthDog

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              That's the version I read in the 1990's

            2. jake Silver badge

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Well, a variation of the original. Perhaps two or three generations old.

              But exactly.

            3. BobT3

              Re: Bit ridiculous

              Interestingly, the revisionist version (https://www.apache.org/apache-name) of the history behind the name first appeared on October 3, 2020 per the Wayback Machine (archive.org). I wonder if that page is the impetus for the complaints by the Apache tribe members?

        4. jvf

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          What's next? French toast?

          1. EarthDog

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            "Freedom Toast"

        5. cream wobbly

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          Telling the very people who identify as Apache that their concerns are "[a] bit ridiculous" shows you're either a) clueless, b) racist, or c) both. I'll let you figure out which you identify as.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Writing something that claims people identify as Apache shows you're either a) clueless, b) racist, or c) both. I'll let you figure out which you identify as.

            "The Nde people refer to themselves as Nde, Inde, Tinde, or Tinneh, which means, “The people.” The term Apache that is commonly used to refer to the Nde people actually comes from the Zuni word ápachu, which means “enemy”."

        6. Blackjack Silver badge

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          Chile is both the name of a country and a term to meant certain part of the male anatomy, should Chile change their name?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Seen on the way over to ElReg: Oh dear, we used the name of a color!

        What gets me is how often the explanations of harm are tenuous. When you can't easily and simply explain how something is bad, it begins to look, um, imagined.

        Or merely ego boosting.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          The complainants name is אדם , clearly cultural appropriation and offensive.

      3. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Yes, but I'm going to ask a question: what nationality/ethnicity are you?

        Would you be OK with a product taking on the name of your own identity group even though it contained no workers of the given group?

        Who would think it OK for a group of Scots to make "English mustard" in a facility in Scotland? Or for a group of English people living in England to open a farm rearing purported "Scotch beef"?

        1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          I think I'll field this one - nope, not an issue. As long as the mustard is the correct recipe for an English mustard, why would it matter if it's made by Scots, or even Africans or Asians? On Scotch beef, I guess we'd have to know what makes it Scotch beef other than being raised in Scotland. If cows eating peat and drinking scotch is a requirement for Scotch beef, then it wouldn't make sense for others to grow it.

          Incidentally, my own background is Mongrel, with quite a lot of Native American in the mix. My great grandmother was a full Cherokee, and there were a bunch mixed in on my father's side. Got some Irish and German floating around in there too. I look white indoors, but let me spend a week in the sun and I look like Cochise. Some of my cousins look like extras from a Western. And I never had a problem with Native American names being used by companies.

          People whining about cultural appropriation are just that, whiners. They've found a way that they can force a large organization to make a minor change, and it lets them feel like they've changed the world when all they've done is make a damned nuisance out of themselves just so they can feel like they accomplished something.

        2. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          I'll bite on this one also...

          It is instructive to look at the EU's protected geographical status for food and drinks and protected designation of origin, which are also currently part of UK law, and the process products have to go through to gain protected status.

          Whilst it is relatively easy to justify Wensleydale cheese, which owes its flavour to the combination of plants that grow in that area, which the cows graze on and hence has a very well defined geographic area for production.

          The decision on Melton Mowbray pork pies was a little more difficult.

          There are many other decisions including one on "Scottish beef"....

          But basically, if you want something to be protected you need to apply..

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Bit ridiculous

            Here's another way of looking at it ... I am a wine maker. Along with my home-grown grapes, I get my fruit from vinyards in several different AVAs (American Viticultural Areas). I would be allowed to use this info when labeling my wine, after jumping through some minimal hoops. But I choose not to.

            My reasoning is that the AVAs are saturated. They make some good plonk, and some not so good plonk. Throwing my name in with that lot would devalue my brand. (As I heard the other day in a downtown Sonoma tasting room "Oh, another Carneros chardonnay? How boring!")

            I protect my name/brand by NOT owning a piece of the so-called "protection".

        3. Vometia has insomnia. Again. Silver badge

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          I did see someone describe Wisconsin as "the cheddar capital of the world". :|

      4. This is my handle
        WTF?

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        I'd take it one step further: How many coders built their first webpages & services on apache *because* it has a cool name, that may or may not honor a great native people. It's certainly a sexier name than NGINX. Some will claim to ignore such shallow visceral impressions and rely strictly on features. Most of those folks would be in denial at best or lying at worst. Better a web server and a great supporting org that's grown to many other OSS projects than a helicopter warship, no? My $0.02. </rant>

    2. jgarbo
      Facepalm

      PLease stop this...

      So the "indigenees" must not appropriate anything "non-native", eg English language, cars, bikes, guns, metal tools, sewing machines... ad nauseam. Stay on your side, I'll stay on mine.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        Re: PLease stop this...

        Horses... and why do they use non-Native names too?

        1. Drew Scriver

          Re: PLease stop this...

          Interestingly, horses are generally thought of as a typical Native American mode of transportation. However, according to scientists the original American horse became extinct about 10,000 years ago.

          Horses were re-introduced in the late 1400s by Spanish conquistadors.

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: PLease stop this...

            Horses were re-introduced in the late 1400s by Spanish conquistadors.

            I'd say you are off by about a century*), Columbus only accidentally crashed into America in 1492 and never got further than the outer islands at that first trip.

            *) And yes, that would make it an off-by-one error ;)

      2. stiine Silver badge

        Re: PLease stop this...

        Or alcohol.

        1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

          Re: PLease stop this...

          public health?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: PLease stop this...

            And the wine, don't forget the wine .

      3. EarthDog

        Re: PLease stop this...

        They were forced to.

    3. vcragain

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      Exactly my reaction ! Time to stop being so nitpicky over use of a word - there's nothing derogatory about it !

    4. Bitbeisser
      Flame

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      More over, the name Apache has been used for the web server for 28 years by now, but only NOW they are complaining...

      Seriously, as someone mentioned in another thread, there seem to be too many "professionally offended"...

    5. Marshalltown

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      Truly. "Apache" probably derives, through Spanish, from a label (Zuni?) for the "Dineh" - the people called "Apaches" and related "Navajo." The Zuni label designated the Navajo, or Apache as "enemies." Etymologies tend to drift with time. The Navajo, who, like the Apache, are Athabascan speakers are said _now_ to acquired the appellation from Spanish adaptation of a word from another indigenous group. But many moons ago, my anthropology instructor indicated that "Navajo" was derived from "Navaja." A navaja is a Spanish folding knife, with a very impressive pedigree reaching back to Rome. The professor claimed the Spanish had referred to the Navajo as "throat cutters." Take your pick.

    6. Antron Argaiv Silver badge

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      Can't help but state the obvious: it took them a while to get offended. Apache has been around for ages (and is well known).

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        You'd have thought they might have more of an issue with the attack helicopter...

      2. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Maybe it took them a while to believe they might be taken seriously...?

        Q: How many members of the Apache identity groups are involved in producing the software "Apache"?

        1. David Nash

          Re: Bit ridiculous

          How many Texans are in the Scottish band "Texas"?

          etc etc.

          Stupid complaint.

    7. Max Pyat

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      That's fine, of course.

      But you don't necessarily get to tell other people how they are supposed to feel or react. If they object, then that's fine and I don't see why not to respect that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Ironically, they haven't AFAIK. Mainly because said tribe apparently lacks something vital, like actually existing under that banner..

    8. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Bit ridiculous

      Dear Apache Foundation:

      I'm at least 1/8 American Indian, and though I do not believe I have affiliation with the Apache tribe (the one tribe I am sure of is Taos, many others exist) I am OFFICIALLY giving MY permission, being enough "Native American" to do so (way more than Lizzie Warden, that's for sure) to NAME AN EXCELLENT SET OF SOFTWARE PROGRAMS and the foundation that supports them after a NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBE.

      Just like the Apache helicopter.

      "Get Woke Go Broke" - DO NOT LISTEN to FOOLS who are "Woke": and thereby end up BECOMING THEM.

      Think what happened to Disney, Bed Bath and Beyond, and OTHERS who made a SIMILAR mistake,.

      The SHRILL WHINY MINORITY must STOP IT, and CODDLING THEM and BENDING TO THEIR WHIMS is *ENABLING* *THEM* *TO* *CONTINUE*.*THEIR* *IRRITATING* *DISRUPTIVE* *FOLLY* !!!

      So here is what you do - how about a web page (prominently referenced on your web site) dedicated to the HISTORY of the APACHE PEOPLE to educate and show positive image kinds of things about the Apache tribe! Factual of course, no tirades or ridiculous activism.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: Bit ridiculous

        Also 1/8th. Also not "Apache"--can't be bothered to remember which tribe it is.

        Also COMPLETELY fed up with the professionally offended.

        Also decided opposed to a name change for any reason. If you need my permission to keep using it, you have it.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oracle? Sun? Java?

    The Greeks, sun worshipers and Java natives should all sue. Right?

    /sarcasm

    When will this bullshit stop?

    1. stiine Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

      The Seminole (US, Florida) nation has supported the use of its name by FSU for decades.

      The ASF should rename itself the Smallpox Software Foundation..... I'm sure tha Apache wouldn't mind using software the killed LOTS of early American immigrants (or Indians as we colloquially call them)...

      EDIT:

      And after some googling, Apache isn't even an Apache word. Its a Zuni word for 'the enemy'' so I think they just right fuck off

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Joke

        Smallpox

        "A patchy[poxy] server"

        1. jmch Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Smallpox

          Epoxy server - the glue that holds the Internet together!!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Smallpox

            It won't stick. (sorry)

            :)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Smallpox

            ...using sticky load balancing

      2. disgruntled yank Silver badge

        Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

        It is broad-minded of the Seminoles, but it is also good business: FSU's football team makes a lot of money, and some of that money--probably not a large proportion, but enough to be useful--goes to the Seminoles.

        In many cases the European traders/explorers/settlers used the term they first heard, which is to say that it was the term used by the tribe's neighbors, who were often enough the tribe's enemies. It is said that "Sioux" derives from an Ojibway word meaning "snake".

    2. Outski
      Joke

      Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

      News just in: Zorastrian extremists have called in a bomb threat again a UK newspaper accusing it of shameless blasphemy /endit

      (jk, all the Zoroastrians I've met have been really lovely and kind people. And also refugees.)

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

        After an overzealous lawyer at Sun tried to sue the island of Java, they published an April fool letter suing the star at the center of the solar system for trademark infringement

        1. Outski

          Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

          Oopsie - someone obviously forgot to remind the lawyer that the coffee Java was named after comes from the island :o)

          FD: Bahasa Java is one of the working languages chez Outski, MrsO being from there

    3. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
      Flame

      Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

      And what about Microsoft? There is such a place as Micronesia, you know.

      1. bpfh
        Coat

        Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

        They used "Microsoft" as it had more possible meanings than "Noviagra".

        I'll get my coat before everyone sets me on fire. Peace!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

        > And what about Microsoft?

        Microsoft, usually shortened to MS which we all know is Montserrat

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

          Or, closer to apropos, multiple sclerosis.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

            Even more apropos, Memoriae Sacrum.

            1. T. F. M. Reader

              Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

              We all know that MS stands for Mississippi which is an Ojibwe word... Oh...

        2. CRConrad Bronze badge

          Re: MS

          The other common expansion of the acronym is Multiple Sclerosis, an AIUI rather nasty ailment.

      3. EarthDog

        Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

        They could sue Anderson for infringement on windows. https://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/

      4. adam 40

        Micro$haft

        ... so I suppose that means Bill Gates can sue himself!

        Damn! where is that Paris icon when you need her looking through glasses trying to see it!!!

      5. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

        Re: And what about Microsoft?

        One day someone with a small cock and erectile dysfunction is gonna sue them.

    4. JohnTill123
      Big Brother

      Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

      "When will this bullshit stop?"

      Follow the money. There is a huge industry based on creating to create complaints and conflicts over these issues. The profits come when they convince NGOs, governments, and soft-hearted people to fund the "reparations" and "reconciliations" that are required to assuage the terrible injustice. When the money stops, this nonsense will stop.

      How to stop the money is the question: The influence of "social media", the "legacy media" and the takeover of institutions, universities, and political parties with the cult of "wokeness" is going to keep that money flowing for a long time to come.

    5. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

      Re: Oracle? Sun? Java?

      Only when we start telling the perpetually offended to go fuck themselves and mind their own business. It can't just be me though, we all have to do it. They won't go away if we ignore them, they'll only go away if we make them leave.

  4. ITS Retired

    What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

    To say nothing about rivers, bodies of water, streets, and everything else in the United States. Then there is Canada... It would take years to fix google map

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

      We're working our way through them, albeit a bit slow for the typical 'activist'.

      You think I'm joking, of course. But I'm not. In the US you can't refer to anyone about anything without someone, somewhere, taking it wrong. The only reason for the relatively slow pace of cultural purging is that there's so much to purge. This is why I reckon British people are often cast as the bad guys in movies -- they're not any more bad than anyone else but they're one group that you'd guarantee would feel a bit silly complaining about it.

      I tend to be a bit pessimistic about the future. Its not helped by a recent story involving a university's "Vice-President of Inclusive Excellence" who was involved in the firing ("non-renewal of short term contract") of a lecturer who offended some ouch cube of a student. ( See https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/opinions/hamline-university-prophet-mohammed-academic-freedom-ctrp-perry/index.html if you're really interested.) I doubt if George Orwell would ever dream up such a job, much more believe that such a role is real.

      1. Flip
        Thumb Up

        Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

        Upvoted for "ouch cube".

      2. Bebu

        Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

        I assumed Chris Ferguson was joking with

        an ever-expanding pool of Vice Provost in Charge of the President’s Livery or Associate Dean of Toiletries

        (https://quillette.com/2023/01/01/stuck-in-the-middle-of-academia/)

        but I am so sure now. Although a good laugh.

        Am I the only one who is thinking that the circus that is our world is very much in the hands of the clowns?

        1. OhForF' Silver badge

          Clowns in the driving seat

          This used to be a funhouse

          But now it's full of evil clowns

      3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

        Time to rename New York as Inferior Copy York

      4. Spoobistle
        Joke

        Re: British... bad guys in movies

        I thought that was 'cause US actors were too cardboardy to play a convincing villain!

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: British... bad guys in movies

          When the baddy just has more muscles or guns they are played by an American, when they have to be intelligent and organised evil super-villain they are Brits.

          I don't only play villains - I play very interesting people (the great Rickman himself)

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: British... bad guys in movies

            When the baddy just has more muscles or guns they are played by an American, when they have to be intelligent and organised evil super-villain they are Brits.

            That goes for the good guys as well (e.g. James Bond).

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: British... bad guys in movies

          Van Dyke was vocally too cardboardy to play a convincing Cockney. But again, consider the intended audience.

    2. Orv Silver badge

      Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

      In the US the trend is in the opposite direction -- giving places their original Native names instead of the names white settlers applied. For example, Denali instead of Mt. McKinley.

      I would argue there's a difference between that and stealing a tribe's name in order to promote a corporation, but it's not my fight and I'm not going to die on that hill (whatever it's named.)

      1. cornetman Silver badge

        Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

        > and stealing a tribe's name in order to promote a corporation

        And isn't this the problem with all these claims of "cultural appropriation"? Nothing is being stolen. The Apache people *still* have their culture. Nobody took anything.

        It's one of the main reasons that I hate this habit of activists calling copyright violation "stealing", as though they don't believe that copyright infringement is "bad enough" so they have to escalate the language to something that is worse.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

          "Nothing is being stolen. The Apache people *still* have their culture. Nobody took anything."

          Well, there is one thing ... that feather logo. Feathers are never chosen by the individual wearer, they are presented to them by the entire tribe for important spiritual or political reasons. As regalia, they should never be taken lightly.

          IMO, the Apache Foundation should choose a new logo, and apologize for misappropriation of the feather, as used in that context with that name.

          But I'm not Apache, so I have no say in the matter.

          1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

            Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

            And yet you did.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              "And yet you did."

              In idiomatic English, "I have no say in the matter" does not preclude having an opinion on the matter. I have expressed an opinion, I have in no way indicated that I have, nor should I have, any claim on the final resolution.

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

            >Well, there is one thing ... that feather logo.

            Feathers have been used as logos and as badges of office by lots of people over the millennia and continue to be used.

            I suspect Jake you are falling for the Woke daftness.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              "I suspect Jake you are falling for the Woke daftness."

              I would agree with you, if that feather wasn't being used in conjunction with the word Apache. In that context, it makes it appear that said group of peoples somehow not only condones the software, but has bestowed a high hono(u)r upon it. They haven't. It's false advertising.

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                I think Jake you are over thinking this. Been unable to find any examples of native America feathers that bear any similarity to the various feathers the Apache Foundation uses as logo's. I also note the Natives in Tech aren't complaining about the use of the feather, just the use of the word 'Apache'.

                Yes to me the combination of Apache and the feather logo - particularly in its current standing up orientation, does tend to make the Native American connotation more obvious. However, this orientation of the feather has also been used to denote scribes and quill pens...

                1. cornetman Silver badge

                  Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                  Honestly, I think the debate as to whether or not a particular reference is, or is not cultural is to miss the point. Culture belongs to humanity at large and most of it is a mixture of expressions of different peoples over the eons.

                  Some Apache people are free (like everyone else in the west) to express their views, but they do not have any special claim to our shared human historical heritage more than any one else. Culture should be shared, experienced, treasured, mixed, expressed in any way that anyone wants. It is not fixed, delicate or property.

                  Frankly, the term "cultural appropriation" is just another misguided attempt to promote white guilt by gullible and shameless individuals who have their own agendas, none of them very good or moral.

                2. jake Silver badge

                  Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                  "Been unable to find any examples of native America feathers that bear any similarity to the various feathers the Apache Foundation uses as logo's."

                  And again you miss the point. Feathers aren't simple haberdashery or adornment. They are badges of hono(u)r. Makes no nevermind what the feather is from, it is a feather and should signify something important in the eyes of the people who awarded it to you.

                  Doing what the Apache Foundation is doing is the equivalent of wearing a soldier's uniform, badges of rank and medals in order to appear legitimate, despite not ever having served in the armed forces. It is deceitful, dishonest and bordering on fraudulent when used in conjunction with that name.

                  1. cornetman Silver badge

                    Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                    > Doing what the Apache Foundation is doing is the equivalent of wearing a soldier's uniform, badges of rank and medals in order to appear legitimate, despite not ever having served in the armed forces. It is deceitful, dishonest and bordering on fraudulent when used in conjunction with that name.

                    They are alluding to the cultural reference, partly as we know because of the origin of name (which was a pun: yes it was, I do personally remember despite their current assertions) but they are not in any way misrepresenting the project in the way that you are describing. They do not pretend or imply that the project is associated with the Apache people or their traditions. I don't think that any reasonable person could possibly draw that conclusion.

                    I don't think even the Apache people making the complaint even assert that. They are just unhappy that their symbol is used in a context that they do not agree with. You really are reaching here.

                  2. Roland6 Silver badge

                    Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                    @Jake - I can see why I'm missing the point, I think you are being overly sensitive, on the behave of a group who haven't complained - in my book a woke indicator.

                    My view is, given how feathers have been used in different cultures to mean different things, no one group can claim an exclusive right. However, I get cultural appropriation and its negative impact (eg. the swastika), so in my view this issue is whether the Apache Foundation have taken a feather of significance to native Americans and appropriated it. Hence why I was looking for firstly a similar feather and secondly a feather within a circle.

                    However, this is a digression, the Natives in Tech haven't complained about the Apache Foundations' use of a feather in their branding, just the use of the English word 'Apache' in their name, which as we know is a mispronunciation of a word spoken in another language.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

          "I hate this habit of activists calling copyright violation "stealing","

          As a professional photographer, I call it stealing. I make a decent portion of my income licensing images. If somebody uses one of my images without my permission, that's taking money away from me, ie; stealing. It might also make one of my customers very unhappy if they are using that image on an ad campaign. As an aside, I do give images away for people to use without payment if they ask nicely and have a real need to promote their cause and I agree with that cause.

          1. tatatata

            Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

            Theft is the taking of another person's personal property with the intent of depriving that person of the use of their property.

            No-one that infringes on your copyright intents you to deprive you of the use of that image. Copyright infringement is therefore not stealing.

            It is not taking money away from you. You never had the money, so it cannot be taken away from you. If they had decided not to use the image, because it's licensed, you would not get the money anyway.

            If you see someone driving through a red light, you would not call it "speeding". So please stop calling "copyright infringement" "stealing".

            1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              If you see someone driving through a red light, you would not call it "speeding".

              I would, the correct maximum velocity at the stop line for a red light is exactly zero, so driving through a red light is speeding.

            2. Orv Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              I'm going to change the locks on your house and take it over, turning it into a free public flophouse. I'm not INTENDING to deprive you of use of the house, you see, because you were at work and weren't using it, and you can still stay in it for free. And I'm not taking money from you because you had evinced no desire to sell the house.

              1. cornetman Silver badge

                Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

                > I'm going to change the locks on your house and take it over, turning it into a free public flophouse. I'm not INTENDING to deprive you of use of the house, you see, because you were at work and weren't using it, and you can still stay in it for free. And I'm not taking money from you because you had evinced no desire to sell the house.

                Interestingly, I'm not entirely sure that that would be strictly illegal in the UK. We do not have the same trespass laws as those that exist in the US. Indeed, one of the key reasons for this is the concept of squatting, originating in the idea that in the far distant past, peoples sometimes used to abandon buildings, thus allowing them to be used by others. Just because you built a house didn't mean that you were entitled to its ownership for eternity, admittedly a different time to be sure, when a "house" might mean a little wood shack in the middle of the woods. However, squatting is still a thing and is (I believe) still permitted by law.

                I would take issue about the changing of the locks though. If you deny me entry to my house then you are denying me the free use of my property, and therefore stealing it. And of course I could, by the same token change the locks back, denying you access in the future.

            3. jake Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              "If you see someone driving through a red light, you would not call it "speeding"."

              Misdirection noted.

            4. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

              "Theft is the taking of another person's personal property with the intent of depriving that person of the use of their property."

              If I take a band's latest album, make copies to sell or just post it to the internet, I am not depriving them of that property, but I have just made it worth nothing. I've deprived them of the opportunity to make money with their music. Anybody in a creative field has the same problem if their work is used in a manner they didn't authorize and especially if they weren't paid for the use. That's the whole premise behind Copyright. Trademarks protect a company/brand name and patents protect processes, designs and the look of a tangible thing.

    3. EarthDog

      Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

      In progress. The current movement is in removing the word "squaw" from maps and place names.

      1. Orv Silver badge

        Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

        We have a ways to go. We still haven't finished removing the word "n****r" from place names.

    4. MachDiamond Silver badge

      Re: What of all the towns and cities named after Native American tribes?

      The other shame is that all of those cultures from that time are gone forever. I think it's nice that they are remembered in place names, schools, military bases, parks, etc. Should all of the streets in New Orleans be renamed to something bland and neutral? Simply numbered? I think it makes much more sense for them to have names that reflect the culture and history of the area. If everything is renamed to avoid 'offending' somebody (and their attorneys), many people and cultures will be forgotten forever, except by people that take out a few hundred thousand in student loans to get a degree studying them before learning how to flip burgers.

  5. Crys

    Ah, as usual all sense of nuance is lost to many internet commenters.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Nuance" is misappropriated Latin. Have you asked the Pope if you can use that word?

      1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge
        Joke

        And just who died and made the Pope the guy who gets to decide things about Latin? Latin started being used during the 7th century BC and there never was a Pope until 30AD. That's lot of appropriation there buddy and that's HIGHLY offensive to someone.

    2. jake Silver badge

      "as usual all sense of nuance is lost to many internet commenters."

      "Nuance" doesn't mean "taking a technical term out of context", and it never will.

  6. cornetman Silver badge

    > And the aggrieved trio challenged the ASF to make good on its code of conduct commitment to "be careful in the words that [they] choose" by choosing a new name.

    Perhaps another good reason to be careful about the words that you put in your code of conduct, lest you find yourself beaten over the head with it.

    1. Zolko Silver badge

      Even better still: don't use ANY code of conduct at all. Problem solved.

      That way, you can continue to use master/slave, whitelist/blacklist, abort, and other traditional software vocabulary

      1. cornetman Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Oh agreed.

  7. Fred Goldstein
    Alert

    A patchy server

    Has anyone debunked the original story of how that name came about? It had nothing to do with Indians except for the pun. NCSA wrote a server back in the Mosaic days. It was open source. And as the web grew, the server got patched, and patched, and patched. So it became "a patchy" server, and hence Apache. Later the foundation was created to support it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A patchy server

      The ASF FAQ itself says the name Apache came first, and is a reference to the people.

      It's not hard to find, so it seems really difficult to debunk a story that's literally what the people involved say happened.

      https://www.apache.org/apache-name/

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A patchy server

        The people who've changed their story, you mean?

        Check out their ORIGINAL website http://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html#name

        1. cornetman Silver badge

          Re: A patchy server

          That's a bit weird. Why would they gaslight like that?

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: A patchy server

            It's not gaslighting. It's an attempt to re-write history.

            (Un)Fortunately, TehIntraWebTubes has a long memory.

            1. cornetman Silver badge

              Re: A patchy server

              > It's not gaslighting. It's an attempt to re-write history.

              Admittedly, retconning would probably have been a better choice of term, you are correct.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: A patchy server

        "so it seems really difficult to debunk a story that's literally what the people involved say happened."

        And the election was rigged, right?

    2. Orv Silver badge

      Re: A patchy server

      A lot of claims about where tech names originated are backroynms, so I'm skeptical. I'm reminded of how the inventor of the Kermit file transfer protocol named it after Kermit the Frog, but then got paranoid about a trademark lawsuit and started claiming it was short for "KL10 Error-Free Reciprocal Microprocessor Interchange over TTY."

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: A patchy server

        The Kermit Protocol was indeed named after the famous Frog ... WITH the expressed, written consent of Henson Associates.

        The world was a much smaller, easier to get around in space in 1981.

        1. Orv Silver badge

          Re: A patchy server

          In '81 no one had the idea that software would become a massive business, I suspect. Now you'd be reluctant to license the name because who knows, some day that file transfer software might grow into a huge empire, sprout an entertainment division, and start producing shows under the Kermit name that compete with you... ;)

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: A patchy server

            It's hard to say. Jim Henson was human, not a lawyer.

            Besides, they only agreed to the use of the name in regard to the comms protocol.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Looks like just some guy in Oklahoma..

    ...and a small bunch of people they know online.

    So the very typical Citizen Smith and the Tooting Popular Front "collective".

    Making grand (and grandiloquent) statements in the name of millions of people who not only dont know this "collective" exists but would very much disagree with them if they ever did.

    It must be a tiny group because I am seeing view counts from their "conference videos" that are lower even than some very bad cafe / street musicians I know off who make Pierre Boulez sound like a toe tapping tune-smith of ear-worm smash hits.

    1. Dante Alighieri
      Alien

      National Viewers and Listeners association

      more Mary Whitehouse.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Whitehouse

      The parallels are uncanny

  9. that one in the corner Silver badge

    after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

    So we are going with that reason for the name being chosen now? Just dropping the whole "a patchy server" story?

    "Apache Rewrites History: Why is it Named Apache?" http://xahlee.info/UnixResource_dir/open_source_rewrite_history.html

    Or https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/

    1. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

      TBH it would make more sense for ASF to stick to it being a patchy web server, with no NA connection.

      C.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

        It's IMHO a couple of decades late to complain about that.

        It more has the feel of someone getting bored and thus seeking something new to be pretend upset about.

        1. chivo243 Silver badge

          Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

          Always gotta chase the boogey man!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

        I used both the NCSA webserver and Apache webserver back in the early 1990s and so have a recollection of the "a patchy webserver" term being used by people.

        The whole reason for the "a patchy webserver" was that NCSA had effectively stopped development on NCSA httpd (probably because many NCSA people involved with both Mosaic and httpd had left, some to form Netscape) and so several different people/groups ended up creating growing sets of patches/diffs to NCSA httpd's codebase to fix known issues that NCSA were not fixing.

        One of (or perhaps *the*) biggest set of patches to NCSA httpd was maintained by people who eventually decided to stop providing patches and rather instead to provide downloads for an already patched NCSA httpd - this is where the "a patchy server" reference came from and they at some point adopted the Apache name.

        1. Mitoo Bobsworth

          Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

          Fun wordplay tends to go way above the heads of the painfully p.c.

          1. Dave559

            Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

            Yes, it's rather interesting that the ASF seems at some point to have retconned their rationale for the choice of the Apache name and has memory-holed the 'a-patchy-server' phrase.

            Bad puns are endemic in hackerdom (see also the entire forest of dead-tree-replacing email clients and their acronym expansions: elm, pine, balsa, etc…), and I can well believe that this particular (good-natured and not intended as derogatory) punning opportunity would have been hard to resist by the developers.

            Whichever came first, it is nevertheless clear that their use of the Apache name is intended in a respectful and non-derogatory way. If there is genuine concern by members of the Apache peoples, then that is something that perhaps does need addressed, but I'm afraid this rather seems to me to be a small number of the 'professionally aggrieved' attempting to make publicity for themselves.

            It is sadly undeniable that indigenous peoples in what is now the USA have historically been the victims of genocide and other terrible treatment by the colonising peoples, and it is surely a very good thing that indigenous peoples are now trying to promote the IT industry as a way forward to help members of their communities escape from the economic exclusion that is sadly still all too prevalent in many of those communities.

            I would have thought that the example of the Apache web server (and other projects under the umbrella) would work well as a good source of inspiration to show how indigenous people can also take up and follow a similar software career, rather than something to be angered by, but obviously it is for those communities themselves to express their feelings on the matter. (As an aside, I wonder how many of the Apache tribes listed in the blog post host their websites on Apache servers - if typical of the web at large, probably the majority, I suspect, and if that is not literally helping to empower the Apache peoples to have their voices heard, I don't know what is.)

            1. stiine Silver badge
              Coat

              Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

              I think 'endemic' is a little harsh. Rather, I think they are engrained.

            2. Orv Silver badge

              Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

              There's a long history here of companies taking names from Indian tribes. Before Apache there was Jeep (with it's Cherokee line), and pretty much every product of the Piper Aircraft Company. The latter even referred to its internal units as "tribes."

              Basically we loathed Indians and portrayed them as weak and inferior right up to the point where we'd beaten them down enough that they were no longer a threat, and at that point we immediately romanticized them as symbols of strength.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

      See https://sweetcode.io/the-story-behind-the-names-of-open-source-projects/ re: Apache

      It would seem both stories are correct. To my mind there are two questions:

      1. Who sent that email - I suspect whilst it was a 'hobby' development project, it was "a patchy webserver", with people liking the word paly on "apache". It is clear Brian Behlendorf liked the linguistic connotation and parallels (see https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/144882/native-american-group-urges-apache-software-foundation-to-change-its-name#:~:text=A%20video%20about%20the%20foundation's,for%20the%20Native%20American%20tribe. )

      What is perhaps a little surprising is that it would seem only Brian has gone on the record. Be interesting to see what Roy T. Fielding, Rob Hartill, David Robinson, Cliff Skolnick, Randy Terbush, Robert S. Thau & Andrew Wilson have to say...

      There is a reference to the name discussion in this 2nd draft of the Apache history: https://marc.info/?l=apache-docs&m=98648331201409&w=2

      2. What was the name of the mailing Cliff Skolnick put together in 1994~1995, ie. at what point did the project adopt the name "Apache" as opposed to "A Patchy".

      [Update]

      I found this paper https://folk.idi.ntnu.no/thomasos/thesis.pdf

      from the references it would seem it was called "Apache" by 1995.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: after seeing a documentary about Geronimo

        Reading through the thesis I came across the section "A patchy Web server" (page 44 of the PDF), the last sentence of which states:

        "Like Unix had once been a pun upon its predecessor

        Multics, the new-httpd crowd chose to call their Web server Apache, a pun based on

        the fact that the NCSA Web server had become “a patchy” Web server."

        Whilst Thomas Østerlie wrote his thesis in 2002, he was able to reference original emails etc. dating back to 1994~1995 and private correspondence. What is perhaps unfortunate, he did not provide a primary source reference for the above statement. Although I suspect if anyone can locate an archive of the "new-httpd" email exchanges from this period the evidence will be there.

  10. Kev99 Silver badge

    Grow up, people. I'm Irish-German, so should I demand German Chocolate Cake and Irish Coffee be renamed? Should I demand sauer kraut and green beer be banned? Sheesh.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The cake is named after its creator, whose surname was, you guessed it, 'German', much like how Caeser salad is named for the chef. From a practical standpoint, ASF is namesquatting; if an Apache nation wished to enter software development, they are currentlt forced to choose other names.

      1. jake Silver badge

        "The cake is named after its creator, whose surname was, you guessed it, 'German'"

        Actually, it was originally named "German's Chocolate cake" after the "German's Baking Chocolate" brand included in the original recipe. The guy who came up with the formula for the chocolate's name was named Samuel German. The actual inventor of the cake recipe was one Mrs. George Clay, of Dallas TX.

        "much like how Caeser salad is named for the chef"

        The Ceaser Salad was named after the casino in Tijuana, Mexico owned by Ceaser Cardini. History suggests that Alex, Ceaser's brother, was the guy who who came up with it (and the associated floor-show). The salad was originally named the "aviator salad", but customers started calling it "ceaser's salad"because that was the only place they could get it. While I'm at it, contrary to popular belief, a proper Ceaser Salad does NOT contain anchovies ... except those that are included in the formula for Worcestershire sauce, which is part of the dressing.

        1. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge

          Anchovies aren't part of it? Say it isn't so!

          I can't imagine a C.S. without anchovies in the dressing! Heck, I drive my wife nuts when she makes it, by snarfing anchovies straight from the jar. I'm weird that way.

      2. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

        and we are out of Waldorfs i'm afraid.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Irish coffee is named after the Irish Whiskey in it, not Irishmen. I've addressed German's Chocolate Cake below.

      Sourkraut is German, and means "sour cabbage", and dates back to at least the 1630s. The Yank term "kraut" meaning "a German" only dates back to the 1850s. As usual, context is everything ... ESPECIALY when using loan-words in English.

      One green beer that I'm aware of that was fairly palatable was Neptune's Green Rooster, but sadly I've heard that Carlsburg bought the name and ruined the brew ... So yes, green beer probably should be banned as undrinkable swill.

      1. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

        Green beer, aside from what has green dye added for St Patrick's day, is what we always called beer that turned bad, and was no longer drinkable. Never heard of any other use of the term.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Beer that has not been aged long enough is sometimes called green, i.e. "not yet ripe".

    3. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Not to mention Hamburgers.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        You mean the "liberty sandwich" with your "liberty cabbage" and "freedom fries"

        1. jake Silver badge

          Just to set the record straight ...

          ... so-called "Freedom Fries" was the brain-child of disgraced Republican congressman and convicted felon Bob Ney (served 17 months of a 30 month sentence at Club Fed (Federal Correctional Institution, Morgantown)).

          Nobody in the US paid all that much attention to the supposed name change, other than the Press and the usual rabid Republican sycophants, who are a very small, if vocal, subset of the population as a whole. I can quite honestly say that I never saw the item on a restaurant menu, even when it was supposedly an in thing.

          1. Orv Silver badge

            Re: Just to set the record straight ...

            I did, in deeply rural (and therefore patriotic) areas. But it originated as a change to the Congressional cafeteria menu.

          2. Stork

            Re: Just to set the record straight ...

            Then try to order french fries in Belgium. Odds are you will have a gastro-historical update together with your delicious Belgian fries.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Just to set the record straight ...

              Whatever. I've had deep-fried (in duck fat! YUM!) potatoes in Peru that were claimed to be "as served to Inca royalty". They certainly tasted it, and I see no reason to doubt the story.

              Only stands to reason. If one has hot fat and spuds in a kitchen, eventually they will meet up. Potatoes and ducks were eaten in that neck of the woods at least 10,000 years ago. How long would it take the two to meet? IMO, the Belgians are probably over 5,000 years late in making the claim.

    4. Orv Silver badge

      Those are bad examples, but you might have a point if you complained about Jerry cans. ;)

      1. JohnTill123

        Jerry Cans?

        Many years ago, my dad had a genuine ex-British Army "jerry can" from WWII. Good thick steel, with a fine threaded cap. Solid and safe as houses.

        Of course, one day #1 son (me) was sent to the gas station to fill it up so I could mow the grass (Dad had finally accepted that me mowing a quarter acre with a manual mower that was dull as dishwater was Not Going To Happen) and the officious operator shut off the pump because my can wasn't red and it didn't have the right warning labels. The fact that it had been an effective and safe gasoline container for about 30 years at that point made no difference to Mr. RulesMustBeObeyed.

        Of course, we then had to buy a plastic can that had the right features, even though it was leaky and easily punctured. Sad.

        1. I could be a dog really Silver badge

          Re: Jerry Cans?

          Ah, that old carrot.

          If you know your stuff, you can really get then wound up - to start with, the response is "so, which law says so ?" They won't be able to answer, because the law doesn't support their argument. The best they may be able to come up with would be their site safety and operations manuals making it a company rule, not law.

          Meanwhile, they will realise that you are blocking some of the pumps, and keeping their attendant from serving customers, and tying up the manager (depending on site/size whether there is a manager as such there), ... in other words, it's costing them money while they pee you off and they might eventually figure it would make more sense to just serve you.

          Depends whether you are in a hurry, and your appetite for mischief that day.

          This came up a few years ago in a different forum, and someone helpfully did all the digging down to identify which law would cover it - and no it doesn't specify the material or even markings for a container. IIRC, the post that kicked that off was someone being refused service because they had plastic containers ! I've also heard of people refused LPG (into purpose designed refillable cylinders) because of the "rule" that "cylinders can't be filled". Or refused LPG into a purpose installed refillable system installed in a caravan with a filler the same as a car - for the same "cylinders can't be refilled" argument.

          But at the end of the day, you have to remember that the forecourt staff will have been through some training - and will have been given a number of rules to follow. Amongst those rules will have been some about portable containers - whether the rule is right or wrong, sensible or not, is beside the point, the forecourt staff have to apply them.

          1. Orv Silver badge

            Re: Jerry Cans?

            A lot of LPG attendants don't know the laws and, to be frank, are vaguely terrified of the whole process. Here in the US, portable BBQ bottles have a date after which they have to either be re-inspected or discarded. Tanks built into RVs do not have this requirement. I've had attendants refuse to fill the tank in my RV because it's too old or doesn't have an inspection sticker. This is something of a blessing in disguise because if they don't know that, it's a good bet they don't know the fill procedure, either, which on RV tanks of this vintage means opening a bleed valve and filling until liquid propane squirts out.

        2. Orv Silver badge

          Re: Jerry Cans?

          Ah, the era when gas stations had attendants. That IS a while back now. ;)

          On the opposite end of that spectrum, a friend of mine reported watching some guys in South Carolina try to fill up a styrofoam cooler with gas during a hurricane evacuation. He said the gas hit the bottom of the cooler and went straight through without even slowing down.

        3. jake Silver badge

          Re: Jerry Cans?

          Every single plastic "safe and non-polluting" gas can I've ever used has spilled more gas than the "unsafe, polluting" steel jerrycans of my yoot, Until a friend turned me on to Rotopax gas cans (rotopax.com), retro-fitted with aftermarket jerrycan-style spouts (amazon or ebay, probably).

          Rotopax gas cans come in all shapes and sizes to fit most needs, and have a very useful and secure mounting system. They are spendy, but they work, don't spill or leak. and they last. I have a few knocking around here that are well over five years old, used near daily, and show no signs of quitting on me. Highly recommended.

        4. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Jerry Cans?

          So you were using a cheap English knock-off of a genuine Jerry can?

          Not surprised that filling it was verboten

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh no

    All the projects that licence themselves with the Apache license will have to update it to whatever the new name is. Not to mention the platforms hosting said projects and allowing them to be searched by licence type.

  12. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

    What are they going to do if the company won't oblige? Sioux?

    1. Roger Greenwood

      You would Hopi so

      1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        If they win it would be something to Crow about.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Like make a Songhees and dance about it?

          (Disclaimer, my wife claims some ancestry linked to the Songhees in Canada, about 1/8th IIRC and is very proud of it)

      2. spireite Silver badge

        The standard of my jokes can't handle a candle to that one.

    2. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

      and if they lose then they are up Shit Cree k then...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Three questions

    Is "a-patchy" okay?

    Wasn't the name "Apache" what the Spanish called all the natives in a region?

    Will the helicopter get a name change as well?

    1. FlippingGerman

      Re: Three questions

      As far as I know, the DOD *asks* the relevant tribe if they're OK with it before naming helicopters after them.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: Three questions

        In the case of the Apache Helicopter, a formidable fighting machine - a fitting name given the origins of the name - look at it as acknowledging the heritage

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

      Re: Three questions

      Also Kiowa, Sioux

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: Three questions

        There's also the Comanche - however that program was cancelled, with 2 prototypes built

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Spider

    Can't call it that! Arthropod appropriation mate.

    1. Dave559

      Re: Spider

      BREAKING NEWS: Charlotte makes 'strongly worded' complaint to Tim Berners-Lee

  15. jake Silver badge

    When are we going to ban the use of "Washington" as a name?

    Ol' George was a slave owner.

    And of course the Americas have to be renamed ... Vaspucci was a liar, a cheat and a fraud.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: When are we going to ban the use of "Washington" as a name?

      Why ? It's a lovely little town in Durham

      (Durham - not some made up county)

  16. Mitoo Bobsworth

    Sad, really

    Intolerance seems to be the new normal these days. The 'Apache' moniker originally came from the wordplay on 'a patchy' server solution. Jeez people, get a sense of humour - it will serve you much better than grievance ever will.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sad, really

      Yeah, where I work it can be hard at times navigating the world according to woke snowflakes looking for something that someone else must find offensive or ... "not inclusive". Or worse, find that your've transgressed this week's rules on what constitutes "unacceptable" language - c.f. woke snowflake mentioned in first sentence who might choose to ignore the obvious interpretation of what a particular word means because picking a different (and in the context, not a rational choice) interpretation allows them to label it at inappropriate.

  17. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Meh

    Nyet, no more Яussians and Chips for you.

    It humours me somewhat how people around here are so proud of the name "Africa" when, as best I can ascertain, the name was given to it by the Romans. Colonisation in action.

  18. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Holmes

    Offensive material

    I am deeply offended by this. I cannot believe somebody would call themselves "The Shadows".

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cultural appropriation

    It’s nothing to Crow about.

    1. Ideasource

      Re: Cultural appropriation

      Crowing, is a particular expression of the mechanic of bragging.

      Bragging is a mechanism of social politics.

      Social politics is an influence game played for gain. Whether that gain be emotional, territorial, economical or otherwise.

      The motivations for crowing, have nothing to do with accuracy. And everything to do with borrowing others to gives indirectly oneself permission to feel good, as well as manipulating and harvesting from the social realm to further one's own well-being.

      So with that in mind,

      Reasons for crowing are highly individualized and not subject to standards external to the individual perspective crower.

  20. Sam Liddicott

    NME

    If "Apache" is a Zuni word meaning "enemy" why not call it the NME web server?

    https://www.nps.gov/articles/apache.htm#:~:text=The%20Nde%20people%20refer%20to,%2C%20which%20means%20%E2%80%9Cenemy%E2%80%9D.

    A Brief History of the Nde

    Traveling south from Canada hundreds of years ago, the Nde (Apache) people joined the Sonoran Desert region of the Pimería Alta around 1200 AD according to most historians and linguists. The Nde people refer to themselves as Nde, Inde, Tinde, or Tinneh, which means, “The people.” The term Apache that is commonly used to refer to the Nde people actually comes from the Zuni word ápachu, which means “enemy”.

    1. Korev Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: NME

      > If "Apache" is a Zuni word meaning "enemy" why not call it the NME web server?

      nme.com is <a href="https://sitereport.netcraft.com/?url=http://www.nme.com>behind CloudFront</a> so we can't see what they actually run

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: NME

        I'm amazed that after 4 days nobody has offered 'Settler' as a historically appropriate replacement for 'Apache', I doubt anyone identifying as a settler descendant will complain.

        obviously I'm posting this as AC which is a pity because I want to use the troll icon...

    2. stiine Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: NME

      Too much like nginx....speaking of which.

    3. TimMaher Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: NME

      They would then get sued by the New Musical Express.

  21. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    "This frankly outdated spaghetti-Western 'romantic' presentation of a living and vibrant community as dead and gone in order to build a technology company 'for the greater good' is as ignorant as it is offensive."

    Carry on like this and your community really will be dead and gone. Nobody will be allowed to speak your name, make reference to you, honour you, write about you... you'd better wish you don't get what you're asking for.

    1. DuncanLarge

      I think we should all be named using symbols

      1. jake Silver badge

        "I think we should all be named using symbols"

        We are.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Wait, Musk was on to something? Say it ain't so..

        :)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Not "on to something", rather "on something".

      3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

        Prince tried that, apparently didn't like it.

        1. jake Silver badge

          I can sympathize with Prince (never thought I'd ever say THAT!).

          Almost 50 years ago, I legally changed my name to "jake"[0], all lower-case, as my legal name on everything from my tax returns to the deed to my house to my passport to my driver's license. For several years. Caused no end of headaches for "the authorities" ... which, as a young man who understood database programing, I took great delight in.

          Then I grew up, no longer having time to "be pulled aside" by petty officials. Today, I use the name my parents gave me on legal stuff. I'm the same dude, regardless of handle ... but everyone who knew me back then still calls me jake.

          MY name could be typed on (most) standard keyboards, I can't imagine the headaches he went through.

          [0] Name changed to protect the guilty ...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Try having multiple forenames (common where I come from) and have the SECOND one of those as first name. That causes problems in so many countries, you'd wonder just how enlightened the people in my home country must have been to be able to handle that as perfectly normal several decades ago.

            To make matters worse, my first name is, umm, let's call it old fashioned. For credit cards this is OK, as long as the company is not called Revolut you'll be fine, the bank will put on there whatever you want, but when I lived in the UK and the GP wanted to register me again with my first forename as first name I stopped them. First they were adamant that "the system required it", but when I asked them to sign an agreement that they accepted responsibility if I got in an accident and they couldn't find my data as everything in my wallet has my second name, as well as business cards they caved pretty quickly (not that that mattered much as most of theses systems work off DOB, but I had enough at that point).

            It is astonishing to see that in the 21st century there are still so many systems that cannot distinguish between forenames and first name. And no, I won't formally have the sequence changed (the process is equivalent to changing your name). I'm kinda stubborn that way :).

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

  22. jake Silver badge

    Nobody else has asked, so I will.

    Have the so-called "Natives in Tech" bothered to actually ask the Apache what their take on the situation is? Or are they just shooting off their mouths, being offended on the behalf of others, who probably don't give a shit one way or the other? It's not exactly likely that nobody who is Apache has ever noticed this use of the name.

    I rather suspect the so-called "Natives in Tech" should stick to policing their own. If THEIR tribe is offended by the technical world appropriating their names/symbols/etc., fair enough. But don't speak for somebody else without permission. It make all y'all look like you're trying to make a power-grab ... and trust me, you are NOT in charge of this. The Apache are, if anyone is.

    1. Pirate Dave Silver badge

      Re: Nobody else has asked, so I will.

      I wondered about that, too. If the Apache tribal leadership had an "official" issue with the use of their name for the web server software, I'd think they would have taken it up with the software people long before now.

      This, though, sounds like a few guys who either a) wanted some free press for some reason or b) went looking for something to get offended about. Possibly even both.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Nobody else has asked, so I will.

        I would say both.

  23. Death Boffin
    Trollface

    Not caring

    Maybe they should call it the Apathy Software Foundation.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trademark incompetence

    I can't help thinking this has been set off by Big Corp trademark trolling - every few months we hear of a Mom & Pop store with a Scottish name getting the cease and desist letter from a giant burger-monger. Or similar.

    So now every bar-stool lawyer thinks they can play the game without realising it is a real quick way to make your brand look toxic if the public turn out not to be on your side.

    (C) Goliath Enterprises...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Trademark incompetence

      " every few months we hear of a Mom & Pop store with a Scottish name getting the cease and desist letter from a giant burger-monger."

      The Kings take the unauthorized use of their name very seriously...

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: Trademark incompetence

      See: "Streisand effect".

    3. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

      Re: Trademark incompetence

      So, Frank Goliath founded a company did he, baby crushing not good enough for him eh. Now on to copyright trolling...

  25. andreamcdonald

    Presumably Apache gunships are now racist

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      No they are big fans of the helicopter names, some tribal leaders even blessed the latest one

      It turns out that having the army naming attack helicopters after you because of your fearsome reputation in fighting the US cavalry is way cooler than a web server.

  26. Marty McFly Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Stupid game

    My local high school is the "Braves". They have a positive portrayal of Native America culture, teach classes on the subject, and the local tribes fully support & endorse the school naming.

    Nevertheless, every few years some big-city person shows up and starts screaming at school board meetings about changing the name.

    I am glad, as a society, this is the biggest issue we have to deal with. Not inflation, not the economy crashing, not increasing unemployment......

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Stupid game

      The first nations youth center here has a mural of typical plains Indians on horses with feather headresses and bows and arrows - straight out of a John Wayne movie. Except we're in the Pacific North West and these are coastal Salish people.

      I suppose it's no different from a school having Spartans as their football team.

      1. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Stupid game

        Yeah, about that "Spartans" name for sports teams...

        https://worldhistory.us/ancient-history/ancient-greece/were-the-spartans-gay-homosexuality-in-sparta-ancient-greece.php

        https://www.greek-love.com/antiquity/pederasty-in-ancient-sparta

        Just make sure the coaches gets the parents' consent or something?!

  27. Jim-234

    Sometimes being politically correct is accidentally historically correct

    So for a very long time the "Land O Lakes" brand had a picture of a female native american surrounded by a background of a nice big open landscape.

    Apparently some modern woke pale faces were "offended" about that.

    So the company happily removed the Native American from the landscape and all the woke pale faces were happy to just have a landscape with no Native Americans shown.

    Which pretty much is exactly historically what the pale faces did some time back. Remove Native American, keep land.

    You have to wonder if when they were coming up with the great idea to just remove the Native American from the picture, anybody thought about the coincidental historical significance?

  28. chololennon
    Devil

    How about the Apache Helicopter?

    I'd be worried more about the war/killing machine than the software foundation

  29. Eric Kimminau TREG

    What a crocload ...

    https://www.apache.org/apache-name/

    The name Apache isn't even used by members of the tribe.

    https://study.com/learn/lesson/apache-tribe-facts-location-culture-history.html#:~:text=The%20Apache%20are%20believed%20to,plains%20regions%20of%20North%20America.

    Apache Tribe: Name and Etymology

    The name "Apache" comes from the Pueblo-Zuni word, "Apachu," meaning "enemy". The name was then widely used by other groups to describe the Apache people while the Apache people called themselves many different names including: "Inde," "Tinde," and "Tinneh," all meaning "the people." Europeans and Americans most often referred to the Apache Natives as 'Apache Indians," which was the dominant terminology well into the twentieth century. Efforts have since been made to push names like "Native American" or "Indigenous American" as opposed to "American Indian," but some native groups still accept or prefer the "Indian" descriptor to identify themselves.

    Apache in itself is actually a derogatory term that shouldnt be used to describe a native America peoplle and anyone who says otherwise is either clueless or tryting to sell you something.

    1. Orv Silver badge

      Re: What a crocload ...

      I'm not sure "our product is actually named after a SLUR for this group of people, not their proper name" is a good defense, though.

  30. DevOpsTimothyC
    Joke

    While they are at it...

    * New York change it's name and pay reparations to the city of York,

    * The state of New Hampshire change it's name and pay reparations to Hampshire

    * The New England area stop calling itself that and pay reparations to England

    * All those calling themselves *-American (eg Irish, Italian, Greek etc) stop. It's been enough generations now...

    I could go on, but I'm sure people get the point

  31. david 12 Silver badge

    Quaker Oats is keeping "Quaker"?

    Like "Apache", "Quaker" was originally an insulting term used by others, and is now a cultural appropriation of a popular word for a respected community.

    1. keithpeter Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Quaker Oats is keeping "Quaker"?

      I was a leveller but after recent events, I am leaning towards being a digger.

      Just thinking aloud here but in the case of the need for a rename, how about

      Seagull Software Foundation. Minor modification to the logo. Many will come up with rationales...

  32. SlimPickens
    Happy

    AppCache

    Just rename it AppCache Software Foundation, problem solved.

    Or if that name is the incorrect technical description of what they do (and it probably is) - why not "Takashi Software Foundation"?

    It sounds enough like the old name - and in Japanese the name can mean - Dutiful, Prosper or Ambition. Their work as a non-profit has been dutiful, and we've all prospered from it, and it's probably ambitious... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fight (race/sex/...)ism by being even more (race/sex/...)ist.

    "Recognizing the work to be done, the tech industry believes it can save businesses from their own employees. Firms like Ongig and Textrics have arisen to offer text analysis systems that purportedly can catch documents like job listings with sexist, racist, and generally offensive terms."

    Most of the time anti-(race/sex/...)ism is actually MORE (race/sex/...)ist than the original, because the anti-(race/sex/...)ist bases it's decision based on trying to go for what it thinks the opposite kind of (race/sex/...)ist would go for, rather than trying to be more accurate.

  34. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    Cats

    Felix cat food should stop misappropriating Latin words.

    Seriously, when will people stop bleating and getting offended? Lots of things are named after lots of other things.

    1. I could be a dog really Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Cats

      Oi ! The sheep I tend on a part time basis would like to have a word with your about your appropriation of their bleatings.

  35. James O'Shea Silver badge

    Feh

    One of the guys from Ops really hates this kind of thing. One of his ancestors departed Scotland for North America in 16<mumble>; said ancestor took a good look at the state of Scots colonies and voluntarily departed for an English settlement. You gotta know things were bad when a Scot would _choose_ to associate with Sassenach. Said Scot took up with a local girl (there are limits to how far a self-respecting Scot will go when associating with Sassenach) (no, she was NOT Cherokee, he was far too far north for that) and so the Ops guy says that it's really hard to get more native American than he is. He once had words with an 'activist' who didn't like the painting of his great-great-repeat-grandmother, apparently it was 'eurocentric' and 'insulting'. The 'activist' got lit up in all-out Scots Gaelic. Complained to HR. HR recalled that this was the guy who, when certain idiots attempted to set up a dress code, came to work in full-out kilt and plaid https://kiltsandmore.com/highland-wear/men-s-clothing-accessories/kilts/belted-plaid-great-kilt-f-ileadh-m-r-/belted-plaid-great-kilt-f-ileadh-m-r--:p1000BLTP:c707:len.html and dared someone to say anything, and said nothing. 'Activist' was miffed. The rest of us laughed.

  36. Aladdin Sane
    Mushroom

    2000 unmarked graves

    Those complaining about First Nations trying to protect themselves should read about recent news events. Native Americans were subjected to a genocide and are still recovering from it.

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reclaim all UK placenames

    While they're at it, Washington DC and Washington state can change their names to respect the original Washington between Gateshead and Sunderland. Birmingham Alabama has no right to be so named, nor has Coventry, Rhode Island.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apache v. Comanchi

    like a Russian roulette.

    but I should not jest, legal ears have eyes!

  39. spireite Silver badge
    Coat

    If Apache webserver has been influential in many ways...

    .... you might call it a Seminole piece of software.

  40. OldGrog001

    Airbrush 'n' Bye ?

    Why do the indigenous peoples of the world want to be so anonymous ? Surely it is a compliment to their status that moves a company to adopt the name of a person/place/tribe/community ? No company wants to be associated with a name that has negative connotations so the name they pick will be a sigil they honour. Maybe by the sin of omission that isn't made clear enough often enough. IMHO anyway...

    1. Orv Silver badge

      Re: Airbrush 'n' Bye ?

      On the other hand, given the way corporations behave these days, having the name of your ethnic group associated with one has a good chance of being defamatory.

  41. Crobderg
    Trollface

    Next up - Boston Celtics

    As a person of diluted Celtic heritage, I'm going to need the Boston Celtics to rebrand. But mostly just because they mispronounce the hard C sound as an S instead.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Next up - Boston Celtics

      You got good written evidence for how the British Gauls pronounced it ?

      Anyone it's not what they called themselves, it's the Latin translation of the Greek name for them.

  42. G40

    U.S. Military Helicopters …

    Just asking. Absolutely no axes to grind.

    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

      Re: U.S. Military Helicopters …

      I'll upvote. The first helicopter given a tribal name was the Bell model 47 'Sioux' in the late 40's*.

      It's a small helicopter and the rotors could be sweeping quite low at the front so tall people risked being being scalped.

      Did eight decades of naming start as dark military humour?

      * as seen in the M*A*S*H TV show intro.

  43. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    Facepalm

    I'll just leave this here

    Shutterstock same model

  44. Snowy Silver badge
    Coat

    What did the Apache call themselves before the Spanish ?

    The name 'Apache' is a word the Spanish used to describe them, and it means 'enemy.'

  45. petethebloke

    Is this a genuine website?

    https://apachetribe.org seems to be served by an Apache server

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Is this a genuine website?

      Well from the images being used on that website, they are clearly thinking of the children.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As a Swede I object to swedes being called swedes. They sure as hell aren't called swedes in Sweden.

    Learn to call them "kålrot"/"kårötter", thank you. The latter is the plural version.

    1. petethebloke

      Surely you don't want to open the turnips v swedes can of worms?

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like