Native Americans urge Apache Software Foundation to ditch name Natives in Tech, a US-based non-profit organization, has called upon the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) to change its name, out of respect for indigenous American peoples and to live up to its own code of conduct. In a blog post, Natives in Tech members Adam Recvlohe, Holly Grimm, and Desiree Kane have accused the ASF of …
Makes me wonder when will they be coming for Devo.
Not to mention that its name development had no Indian context whatsoever, it started as "A patchy server" (AFAIK, it's been a while).
THB, I'm all for respecting culture and all, but it's getting a tad beyond rediculous. God help us if someone finds a way to be upset with the use of the word "the". Downvote all you want, but I think it's time the profesionally insulted take a break from finding new things to moan about.
I would rather focus on the disrespect for their land and culture than having to find a new and likely very contrived name for a product that is respected the world over. If there was a tribe called "Windows", OK, I could understand that.
Dammit, almost blew this week's rant quota in one go.
1. Isn't God female (I think I saw a documentation in the late 90s, what was it called... ah... "Dogma")
2. Ask the Califormians about floods and water - I also recall that there were recent floods somewhere in Asia, in Australia, and 2021 in Europe (somehere in Germany or Belgium or that region)
>. Ask the Califormians about floods and water - ..., in Australia, and 2021 in Europe (somehere in Germany or Belgium
That's punishment for their sins.
California is notorious for wearing clothing of different fabrics, Australians throw shrimps on the barbie, Germans love a pork sausage and we don't need to mention what Belgians do.
Unfortunately the only one who has jurisdiction to claim misappropriation, is God. Which would require God to submit to the authority of a court system in order to be recognized.
Of course by submitting to a court system, creates an undeniable physical demonstration that God has abdicated his role and authority, promoting the courts to the role of God.
It does not surprise me that God does not show up to have a problem with this use.
Probably doesn't want to bow down to an lowly human system of pseudo Justice.
Yeah, I'm a grumpy old man, but I wonder: when I was young, Indians (ok, First Nations People) were the epitome of courage and generosity, being screwed over by the White Man (who came across the sea, and brought pain and misery). I can understand that having them painted in the typical spaghetti western (am I allowed to say that still?) manner is stupid (and oh so childish), so there is that aspect. Not being too happy with that is understandable.
But then I don't see Germans complain about how they are depicted in Raiders of the Lost Ark (ok, that's a stupid comparison, I know).
As always: this is not black and white, and I personally find this a stupid complaint and discussion, but this does not mean I cannot see some grounds for complaints.
"Why are we always the evil masterminds :D"
For the same reason late-night infomercials on TV are often hosted by somebody with a supposed Brit accent[0]. It stands out to the intended audience.
[0] Daft thing is many of the accents are faked ... and a good portion of them are not Brit, but rather Aussie, NZ, SA or other ... and the faked ones are often about as bad as Dick Van Dyke's in Mary Poppins. Quite jarring to people who can tell the difference.
Almost every single documentary seems to be narrated by someone with a British accent. I guess it's BBC's (or David Attenborough's) legacy in the flesh.
Also, whenever a new character with some rank or knowledge shows up in the Star Wars franchise, you can bet they'll have a (somewhat) British accent. Older Luke and Yoda being the most notable exceptions. Again, I guess Sir Alec Guinness traced a path that's hard to leave for the newer generations.
This should explain it nicely.
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/29/jaguar-super-bown-commercial-video/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9zZWFyY2guYnJhdmUuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADczFdiD6azwCe_MQxy6i2yfv4AsoXhgqC69ThjFEP1KzSwLyf4s9alPrOH8oMd7bn2QCvXjmcdbw3Q_IsM4-5cXaWJ1z2xK2dpArkRJGbDfJgXMqC0wlc4yvWlj6XMGWa_cewZi06I0N1roM4R7PbxUUK6Q1-1O8mkjG3XYIsLH
This is a tech mag - you know that (a) you can use tags to turn a URL into a meaningful reference and, more importantly, that (b) you can usually omit the "?" and everything that follows as that tends to contain tracking data, no?
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/29/jaguar-super-bown-commercial-video/ would have worked fine.
"I can understand that having them painted in the typical spaghetti western (am I allowed to say that still?) manner is stupid (and oh so childish)"
Bit of movie pedantry here, but the largely offensive stereotypical depiction of native Americans in movies was down to the 'John Wayne' / Lone Ranger-type movies of the 50s and 60s. The term "spaghetti western" specifically refers to westerns produced by Italians, particularly the Sergio Leone directed Clint Eastwood ones, magnificently scored by Ennio Morricone. These were focused on a different era, and the frontier wars with Mexico, with nary a Native American in sight. I'm not sure if it was more offensive to remove Native Americans altogether from 'spaghetti westerns', or if this was more accurate in that specific historical / geographical context.
Which is wrong because why? The "spaghetti" in "Spaghetti Western" is a reference to the fact that the director (and I think the production company) were Italian, and the movies were filmed in Italian.
You ALWAYS hire people living nearby when filming. Should they be required to fly folks in from Mexico?
"I'm not sure if it was more offensive to remove Native Americans altogether from 'spaghetti westerns', or if this was more accurate in that specific historical / geographical context."
They were probably more offensive to Mexicans :-)
(We don' need no steenkin'badges gringo!)
Then again, you don't often see Mexicans bitching because of the way how Tuco or the Rojo brothers present them in these movies.
Historically Latin Americans have been somewhat more thick-skinned regarding this kind of portrayals (lots of people over here still love The Three Caballeros, for example), but this is a fight we are starting to lose too.
> being screwed over by the White Man
Ah if they want to have Apache change its name, maybe they can stop referring to "the white man"? We white people have many cultures and languages and simply lumping every white race in with every other is, a bit old fashioned and dare I say it, offensive?
I bet they wont do that will they. :D
There are a few languages that got that correct.
The colour of "whites" is described with a word meaning colourless / translucent. Of course in the current stream of idiocy that must be replaced by the word meaning "white" as a colour (something between RAL 9002 and RAL 9003).
rest assured that once we sort out the Indians, the Apaches, woman de-appreciation in speech and writing, notwithstanding all other burning issues of this planet, we shall get back to the highly distorted image of the German volk in the Raiders of the Lost Ark and in other so-called works of art. And the Belgians. And Bulgarians. What, you thought we'd forget about the Bulgarians?! Armageddon days are here, again.
Their own FAQ says otherwise, so I'll take their word over yours, sorry :)
"Co-founder Brian Behlendorf first came up with the name “Apache” for the server. The name “Apache” was chosen out of reverence and appreciation for the people and tribes who refer to themselves as “Apache”.
As the Apache HTTP Server grew from patches applied to the NCSA Server, a pun on the name quickly spread amongst members of the community, with the rumor being that “Apache” actually stood for “a ‘patchy’ server”. As time passed, the popularity of the “A Patchy Server” story grew: rumor became lore, and lore became legend."
https://www.apache.org/apache-name/
Their own FAQ rewrites history:
Check out their ORIGINAL website http://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html#name
Writing something that claims people identify as Apache shows you're either a) clueless, b) racist, or c) both. I'll let you figure out which you identify as.
"The Nde people refer to themselves as Nde, Inde, Tinde, or Tinneh, which means, “The people.” The term Apache that is commonly used to refer to the Nde people actually comes from the Zuni word ápachu, which means “enemy”."
Seen on the way over to ElReg: Oh dear, we used the name of a color!
What gets me is how often the explanations of harm are tenuous. When you can't easily and simply explain how something is bad, it begins to look, um, imagined.
Yes, but I'm going to ask a question: what nationality/ethnicity are you?
Would you be OK with a product taking on the name of your own identity group even though it contained no workers of the given group?
Who would think it OK for a group of Scots to make "English mustard" in a facility in Scotland? Or for a group of English people living in England to open a farm rearing purported "Scotch beef"?
I think I'll field this one - nope, not an issue. As long as the mustard is the correct recipe for an English mustard, why would it matter if it's made by Scots, or even Africans or Asians? On Scotch beef, I guess we'd have to know what makes it Scotch beef other than being raised in Scotland. If cows eating peat and drinking scotch is a requirement for Scotch beef, then it wouldn't make sense for others to grow it.
Incidentally, my own background is Mongrel, with quite a lot of Native American in the mix. My great grandmother was a full Cherokee, and there were a bunch mixed in on my father's side. Got some Irish and German floating around in there too. I look white indoors, but let me spend a week in the sun and I look like Cochise. Some of my cousins look like extras from a Western. And I never had a problem with Native American names being used by companies.
People whining about cultural appropriation are just that, whiners. They've found a way that they can force a large organization to make a minor change, and it lets them feel like they've changed the world when all they've done is make a damned nuisance out of themselves just so they can feel like they accomplished something.
I'll bite on this one also...
It is instructive to look at the EU's protected geographical status for food and drinks and protected designation of origin, which are also currently part of UK law, and the process products have to go through to gain protected status.
Whilst it is relatively easy to justify Wensleydale cheese, which owes its flavour to the combination of plants that grow in that area, which the cows graze on and hence has a very well defined geographic area for production.
The decision on Melton Mowbray pork pies was a little more difficult.
There are many other decisions including one on "Scottish beef"....
But basically, if you want something to be protected you need to apply..
Here's another way of looking at it ... I am a wine maker. Along with my home-grown grapes, I get my fruit from vinyards in several different AVAs (American Viticultural Areas). I would be allowed to use this info when labeling my wine, after jumping through some minimal hoops. But I choose not to.
My reasoning is that the AVAs are saturated. They make some good plonk, and some not so good plonk. Throwing my name in with that lot would devalue my brand. (As I heard the other day in a downtown Sonoma tasting room "Oh, another Carneros chardonnay? How boring!")
I protect my name/brand by NOT owning a piece of the so-called "protection".
I'd take it one step further: How many coders built their first webpages & services on apache *because* it has a cool name, that may or may not honor a great native people. It's certainly a sexier name than NGINX. Some will claim to ignore such shallow visceral impressions and rely strictly on features. Most of those folks would be in denial at best or lying at worst. Better a web server and a great supporting org that's grown to many other OSS projects than a helicopter warship, no? My $0.02. </rant>
Interestingly, horses are generally thought of as a typical Native American mode of transportation. However, according to scientists the original American horse became extinct about 10,000 years ago.
Horses were re-introduced in the late 1400s by Spanish conquistadors.
Horses were re-introduced in the late 1400s by Spanish conquistadors.
I'd say you are off by about a century*), Columbus only accidentally crashed into America in 1492 and never got further than the outer islands at that first trip.
*) And yes, that would make it an off-by-one error ;)
Truly. "Apache" probably derives, through Spanish, from a label (Zuni?) for the "Dineh" - the people called "Apaches" and related "Navajo." The Zuni label designated the Navajo, or Apache as "enemies." Etymologies tend to drift with time. The Navajo, who, like the Apache, are Athabascan speakers are said _now_ to acquired the appellation from Spanish adaptation of a word from another indigenous group. But many moons ago, my anthropology instructor indicated that "Navajo" was derived from "Navaja." A navaja is a Spanish folding knife, with a very impressive pedigree reaching back to Rome. The professor claimed the Spanish had referred to the Navajo as "throat cutters." Take your pick.
Dear Apache Foundation:
I'm at least 1/8 American Indian, and though I do not believe I have affiliation with the Apache tribe (the one tribe I am sure of is Taos, many others exist) I am OFFICIALLY giving MY permission, being enough "Native American" to do so (way more than Lizzie Warden, that's for sure) to NAME AN EXCELLENT SET OF SOFTWARE PROGRAMS and the foundation that supports them after a NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBE.
Just like the Apache helicopter.
"Get Woke Go Broke" - DO NOT LISTEN to FOOLS who are "Woke": and thereby end up BECOMING THEM.
Think what happened to Disney, Bed Bath and Beyond, and OTHERS who made a SIMILAR mistake,.
The SHRILL WHINY MINORITY must STOP IT, and CODDLING THEM and BENDING TO THEIR WHIMS is *ENABLING* *THEM* *TO* *CONTINUE*.*THEIR* *IRRITATING* *DISRUPTIVE* *FOLLY* !!!
So here is what you do - how about a web page (prominently referenced on your web site) dedicated to the HISTORY of the APACHE PEOPLE to educate and show positive image kinds of things about the Apache tribe! Factual of course, no tirades or ridiculous activism.
The Seminole (US, Florida) nation has supported the use of its name by FSU for decades.
The ASF should rename itself the Smallpox Software Foundation..... I'm sure tha Apache wouldn't mind using software the killed LOTS of early American immigrants (or Indians as we colloquially call them)...
EDIT:
And after some googling, Apache isn't even an Apache word. Its a Zuni word for 'the enemy'' so I think they just right fuck off
It is broad-minded of the Seminoles, but it is also good business: FSU's football team makes a lot of money, and some of that money--probably not a large proportion, but enough to be useful--goes to the Seminoles.
In many cases the European traders/explorers/settlers used the term they first heard, which is to say that it was the term used by the tribe's neighbors, who were often enough the tribe's enemies. It is said that "Sioux" derives from an Ojibway word meaning "snake".
"When will this bullshit stop?"
Follow the money. There is a huge industry based on creating to create complaints and conflicts over these issues. The profits come when they convince NGOs, governments, and soft-hearted people to fund the "reparations" and "reconciliations" that are required to assuage the terrible injustice. When the money stops, this nonsense will stop.
How to stop the money is the question: The influence of "social media", the "legacy media" and the takeover of institutions, universities, and political parties with the cult of "wokeness" is going to keep that money flowing for a long time to come.
We're working our way through them, albeit a bit slow for the typical 'activist'.
You think I'm joking, of course. But I'm not. In the US you can't refer to anyone about anything without someone, somewhere, taking it wrong. The only reason for the relatively slow pace of cultural purging is that there's so much to purge. This is why I reckon British people are often cast as the bad guys in movies -- they're not any more bad than anyone else but they're one group that you'd guarantee would feel a bit silly complaining about it.
I tend to be a bit pessimistic about the future. Its not helped by a recent story involving a university's "Vice-President of Inclusive Excellence" who was involved in the firing ("non-renewal of short term contract") of a lecturer who offended some ouch cube of a student. ( See https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/opinions/hamline-university-prophet-mohammed-academic-freedom-ctrp-perry/index.html if you're really interested.) I doubt if George Orwell would ever dream up such a job, much more believe that such a role is real.
I assumed Chris Ferguson was joking with
an ever-expanding pool of Vice Provost in Charge of the President’s Livery or Associate Dean of Toiletries
(https://quillette.com/2023/01/01/stuck-in-the-middle-of-academia/)
but I am so sure now. Although a good laugh.
Am I the only one who is thinking that the circus that is our world is very much in the hands of the clowns?
In the US the trend is in the opposite direction -- giving places their original Native names instead of the names white settlers applied. For example, Denali instead of Mt. McKinley.
I would argue there's a difference between that and stealing a tribe's name in order to promote a corporation, but it's not my fight and I'm not going to die on that hill (whatever it's named.)
> and stealing a tribe's name in order to promote a corporation
And isn't this the problem with all these claims of "cultural appropriation"? Nothing is being stolen. The Apache people *still* have their culture. Nobody took anything.
It's one of the main reasons that I hate this habit of activists calling copyright violation "stealing", as though they don't believe that copyright infringement is "bad enough" so they have to escalate the language to something that is worse.
"Nothing is being stolen. The Apache people *still* have their culture. Nobody took anything."
Well, there is one thing ... that feather logo. Feathers are never chosen by the individual wearer, they are presented to them by the entire tribe for important spiritual or political reasons. As regalia, they should never be taken lightly.
IMO, the Apache Foundation should choose a new logo, and apologize for misappropriation of the feather, as used in that context with that name.
But I'm not Apache, so I have no say in the matter.
"And yet you did."
In idiomatic English, "I have no say in the matter" does not preclude having an opinion on the matter. I have expressed an opinion, I have in no way indicated that I have, nor should I have, any claim on the final resolution.
>Well, there is one thing ... that feather logo.
Feathers have been used as logos and as badges of office by lots of people over the millennia and continue to be used.
I suspect Jake you are falling for the Woke daftness.
"I suspect Jake you are falling for the Woke daftness."
I would agree with you, if that feather wasn't being used in conjunction with the word Apache. In that context, it makes it appear that said group of peoples somehow not only condones the software, but has bestowed a high hono(u)r upon it. They haven't. It's false advertising.
I think Jake you are over thinking this. Been unable to find any examples of native America feathers that bear any similarity to the various feathers the Apache Foundation uses as logo's. I also note the Natives in Tech aren't complaining about the use of the feather, just the use of the word 'Apache'.
Yes to me the combination of Apache and the feather logo - particularly in its current standing up orientation, does tend to make the Native American connotation more obvious. However, this orientation of the feather has also been used to denote scribes and quill pens...
Honestly, I think the debate as to whether or not a particular reference is, or is not cultural is to miss the point. Culture belongs to humanity at large and most of it is a mixture of expressions of different peoples over the eons.
Some Apache people are free (like everyone else in the west) to express their views, but they do not have any special claim to our shared human historical heritage more than any one else. Culture should be shared, experienced, treasured, mixed, expressed in any way that anyone wants. It is not fixed, delicate or property.
Frankly, the term "cultural appropriation" is just another misguided attempt to promote white guilt by gullible and shameless individuals who have their own agendas, none of them very good or moral.
"Been unable to find any examples of native America feathers that bear any similarity to the various feathers the Apache Foundation uses as logo's."
And again you miss the point. Feathers aren't simple haberdashery or adornment. They are badges of hono(u)r. Makes no nevermind what the feather is from, it is a feather and should signify something important in the eyes of the people who awarded it to you.
Doing what the Apache Foundation is doing is the equivalent of wearing a soldier's uniform, badges of rank and medals in order to appear legitimate, despite not ever having served in the armed forces. It is deceitful, dishonest and bordering on fraudulent when used in conjunction with that name.
> Doing what the Apache Foundation is doing is the equivalent of wearing a soldier's uniform, badges of rank and medals in order to appear legitimate, despite not ever having served in the armed forces. It is deceitful, dishonest and bordering on fraudulent when used in conjunction with that name.
They are alluding to the cultural reference, partly as we know because of the origin of name (which was a pun: yes it was, I do personally remember despite their current assertions) but they are not in any way misrepresenting the project in the way that you are describing. They do not pretend or imply that the project is associated with the Apache people or their traditions. I don't think that any reasonable person could possibly draw that conclusion.
I don't think even the Apache people making the complaint even assert that. They are just unhappy that their symbol is used in a context that they do not agree with. You really are reaching here.
@Jake - I can see why I'm missing the point, I think you are being overly sensitive, on the behave of a group who haven't complained - in my book a woke indicator.
My view is, given how feathers have been used in different cultures to mean different things, no one group can claim an exclusive right. However, I get cultural appropriation and its negative impact (eg. the swastika), so in my view this issue is whether the Apache Foundation have taken a feather of significance to native Americans and appropriated it. Hence why I was looking for firstly a similar feather and secondly a feather within a circle.
However, this is a digression, the Natives in Tech haven't complained about the Apache Foundations' use of a feather in their branding, just the use of the English word 'Apache' in their name, which as we know is a mispronunciation of a word spoken in another language.
"I hate this habit of activists calling copyright violation "stealing","
As a professional photographer, I call it stealing. I make a decent portion of my income licensing images. If somebody uses one of my images without my permission, that's taking money away from me, ie; stealing. It might also make one of my customers very unhappy if they are using that image on an ad campaign. As an aside, I do give images away for people to use without payment if they ask nicely and have a real need to promote their cause and I agree with that cause.
Theft is the taking of another person's personal property with the intent of depriving that person of the use of their property.
No-one that infringes on your copyright intents you to deprive you of the use of that image. Copyright infringement is therefore not stealing.
It is not taking money away from you. You never had the money, so it cannot be taken away from you. If they had decided not to use the image, because it's licensed, you would not get the money anyway.
If you see someone driving through a red light, you would not call it "speeding". So please stop calling "copyright infringement" "stealing".
I'm going to change the locks on your house and take it over, turning it into a free public flophouse. I'm not INTENDING to deprive you of use of the house, you see, because you were at work and weren't using it, and you can still stay in it for free. And I'm not taking money from you because you had evinced no desire to sell the house.
> I'm going to change the locks on your house and take it over, turning it into a free public flophouse. I'm not INTENDING to deprive you of use of the house, you see, because you were at work and weren't using it, and you can still stay in it for free. And I'm not taking money from you because you had evinced no desire to sell the house.
Interestingly, I'm not entirely sure that that would be strictly illegal in the UK. We do not have the same trespass laws as those that exist in the US. Indeed, one of the key reasons for this is the concept of squatting, originating in the idea that in the far distant past, peoples sometimes used to abandon buildings, thus allowing them to be used by others. Just because you built a house didn't mean that you were entitled to its ownership for eternity, admittedly a different time to be sure, when a "house" might mean a little wood shack in the middle of the woods. However, squatting is still a thing and is (I believe) still permitted by law.
I would take issue about the changing of the locks though. If you deny me entry to my house then you are denying me the free use of my property, and therefore stealing it. And of course I could, by the same token change the locks back, denying you access in the future.
"Theft is the taking of another person's personal property with the intent of depriving that person of the use of their property."
If I take a band's latest album, make copies to sell or just post it to the internet, I am not depriving them of that property, but I have just made it worth nothing. I've deprived them of the opportunity to make money with their music. Anybody in a creative field has the same problem if their work is used in a manner they didn't authorize and especially if they weren't paid for the use. That's the whole premise behind Copyright. Trademarks protect a company/brand name and patents protect processes, designs and the look of a tangible thing.
The other shame is that all of those cultures from that time are gone forever. I think it's nice that they are remembered in place names, schools, military bases, parks, etc. Should all of the streets in New Orleans be renamed to something bland and neutral? Simply numbered? I think it makes much more sense for them to have names that reflect the culture and history of the area. If everything is renamed to avoid 'offending' somebody (and their attorneys), many people and cultures will be forgotten forever, except by people that take out a few hundred thousand in student loans to get a degree studying them before learning how to flip burgers.
> And the aggrieved trio challenged the ASF to make good on its code of conduct commitment to "be careful in the words that [they] choose" by choosing a new name.
Perhaps another good reason to be careful about the words that you put in your code of conduct, lest you find yourself beaten over the head with it.
Has anyone debunked the original story of how that name came about? It had nothing to do with Indians except for the pun. NCSA wrote a server back in the Mosaic days. It was open source. And as the web grew, the server got patched, and patched, and patched. So it became "a patchy" server, and hence Apache. Later the foundation was created to support it.
The people who've changed their story, you mean?
Check out their ORIGINAL website http://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html#name
A lot of claims about where tech names originated are backroynms, so I'm skeptical. I'm reminded of how the inventor of the Kermit file transfer protocol named it after Kermit the Frog, but then got paranoid about a trademark lawsuit and started claiming it was short for "KL10 Error-Free Reciprocal Microprocessor Interchange over TTY."
In '81 no one had the idea that software would become a massive business, I suspect. Now you'd be reluctant to license the name because who knows, some day that file transfer software might grow into a huge empire, sprout an entertainment division, and start producing shows under the Kermit name that compete with you... ;)
...and a small bunch of people they know online.
So the very typical Citizen Smith and the Tooting Popular Front "collective".
Making grand (and grandiloquent) statements in the name of millions of people who not only dont know this "collective" exists but would very much disagree with them if they ever did.
It must be a tiny group because I am seeing view counts from their "conference videos" that are lower even than some very bad cafe / street musicians I know off who make Pierre Boulez sound like a toe tapping tune-smith of ear-worm smash hits.
So we are going with that reason for the name being chosen now? Just dropping the whole "a patchy server" story?
"Apache Rewrites History: Why is it Named Apache?" http://xahlee.info/UnixResource_dir/open_source_rewrite_history.html
Or https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/
I used both the NCSA webserver and Apache webserver back in the early 1990s and so have a recollection of the "a patchy webserver" term being used by people.
The whole reason for the "a patchy webserver" was that NCSA had effectively stopped development on NCSA httpd (probably because many NCSA people involved with both Mosaic and httpd had left, some to form Netscape) and so several different people/groups ended up creating growing sets of patches/diffs to NCSA httpd's codebase to fix known issues that NCSA were not fixing.
One of (or perhaps *the*) biggest set of patches to NCSA httpd was maintained by people who eventually decided to stop providing patches and rather instead to provide downloads for an already patched NCSA httpd - this is where the "a patchy server" reference came from and they at some point adopted the Apache name.
Yes, it's rather interesting that the ASF seems at some point to have retconned their rationale for the choice of the Apache name and has memory-holed the 'a-patchy-server' phrase.
Bad puns are endemic in hackerdom (see also the entire forest of dead-tree-replacing email clients and their acronym expansions: elm, pine, balsa, etc…), and I can well believe that this particular (good-natured and not intended as derogatory) punning opportunity would have been hard to resist by the developers.
Whichever came first, it is nevertheless clear that their use of the Apache name is intended in a respectful and non-derogatory way. If there is genuine concern by members of the Apache peoples, then that is something that perhaps does need addressed, but I'm afraid this rather seems to me to be a small number of the 'professionally aggrieved' attempting to make publicity for themselves.
It is sadly undeniable that indigenous peoples in what is now the USA have historically been the victims of genocide and other terrible treatment by the colonising peoples, and it is surely a very good thing that indigenous peoples are now trying to promote the IT industry as a way forward to help members of their communities escape from the economic exclusion that is sadly still all too prevalent in many of those communities.
I would have thought that the example of the Apache web server (and other projects under the umbrella) would work well as a good source of inspiration to show how indigenous people can also take up and follow a similar software career, rather than something to be angered by, but obviously it is for those communities themselves to express their feelings on the matter. (As an aside, I wonder how many of the Apache tribes listed in the blog post host their websites on Apache servers - if typical of the web at large, probably the majority, I suspect, and if that is not literally helping to empower the Apache peoples to have their voices heard, I don't know what is.)
There's a long history here of companies taking names from Indian tribes. Before Apache there was Jeep (with it's Cherokee line), and pretty much every product of the Piper Aircraft Company. The latter even referred to its internal units as "tribes."
Basically we loathed Indians and portrayed them as weak and inferior right up to the point where we'd beaten them down enough that they were no longer a threat, and at that point we immediately romanticized them as symbols of strength.
See https://sweetcode.io/the-story-behind-the-names-of-open-source-projects/ re: Apache
It would seem both stories are correct. To my mind there are two questions:
1. Who sent that email - I suspect whilst it was a 'hobby' development project, it was "a patchy webserver", with people liking the word paly on "apache". It is clear Brian Behlendorf liked the linguistic connotation and parallels (see https://uk.pcmag.com/software-services/144882/native-american-group-urges-apache-software-foundation-to-change-its-name#:~:text=A%20video%20about%20the%20foundation's,for%20the%20Native%20American%20tribe. )
What is perhaps a little surprising is that it would seem only Brian has gone on the record. Be interesting to see what Roy T. Fielding, Rob Hartill, David Robinson, Cliff Skolnick, Randy Terbush, Robert S. Thau & Andrew Wilson have to say...
There is a reference to the name discussion in this 2nd draft of the Apache history: https://marc.info/?l=apache-docs&m=98648331201409&w=2
2. What was the name of the mailing Cliff Skolnick put together in 1994~1995, ie. at what point did the project adopt the name "Apache" as opposed to "A Patchy".
[Update]
I found this paper https://folk.idi.ntnu.no/thomasos/thesis.pdf
from the references it would seem it was called "Apache" by 1995.
Reading through the thesis I came across the section "A patchy Web server" (page 44 of the PDF), the last sentence of which states:
"Like Unix had once been a pun upon its predecessor
Multics, the new-httpd crowd chose to call their Web server Apache, a pun based on
the fact that the NCSA Web server had become “a patchy” Web server."
Whilst Thomas Østerlie wrote his thesis in 2002, he was able to reference original emails etc. dating back to 1994~1995 and private correspondence. What is perhaps unfortunate, he did not provide a primary source reference for the above statement. Although I suspect if anyone can locate an archive of the "new-httpd" email exchanges from this period the evidence will be there.
The cake is named after its creator, whose surname was, you guessed it, 'German', much like how Caeser salad is named for the chef. From a practical standpoint, ASF is namesquatting; if an Apache nation wished to enter software development, they are currentlt forced to choose other names.
"The cake is named after its creator, whose surname was, you guessed it, 'German'"
Actually, it was originally named "German's Chocolate cake" after the "German's Baking Chocolate" brand included in the original recipe. The guy who came up with the formula for the chocolate's name was named Samuel German. The actual inventor of the cake recipe was one Mrs. George Clay, of Dallas TX.
"much like how Caeser salad is named for the chef"
The Ceaser Salad was named after the casino in Tijuana, Mexico owned by Ceaser Cardini. History suggests that Alex, Ceaser's brother, was the guy who who came up with it (and the associated floor-show). The salad was originally named the "aviator salad", but customers started calling it "ceaser's salad"because that was the only place they could get it. While I'm at it, contrary to popular belief, a proper Ceaser Salad does NOT contain anchovies ... except those that are included in the formula for Worcestershire sauce, which is part of the dressing.
Irish coffee is named after the Irish Whiskey in it, not Irishmen. I've addressed German's Chocolate Cake below.
Sourkraut is German, and means "sour cabbage", and dates back to at least the 1630s. The Yank term "kraut" meaning "a German" only dates back to the 1850s. As usual, context is everything ... ESPECIALY when using loan-words in English.
One green beer that I'm aware of that was fairly palatable was Neptune's Green Rooster, but sadly I've heard that Carlsburg bought the name and ruined the brew ... So yes, green beer probably should be banned as undrinkable swill.
... so-called "Freedom Fries" was the brain-child of disgraced Republican congressman and convicted felon Bob Ney (served 17 months of a 30 month sentence at Club Fed (Federal Correctional Institution, Morgantown)).
Nobody in the US paid all that much attention to the supposed name change, other than the Press and the usual rabid Republican sycophants, who are a very small, if vocal, subset of the population as a whole. I can quite honestly say that I never saw the item on a restaurant menu, even when it was supposedly an in thing.
Whatever. I've had deep-fried (in duck fat! YUM!) potatoes in Peru that were claimed to be "as served to Inca royalty". They certainly tasted it, and I see no reason to doubt the story.
Only stands to reason. If one has hot fat and spuds in a kitchen, eventually they will meet up. Potatoes and ducks were eaten in that neck of the woods at least 10,000 years ago. How long would it take the two to meet? IMO, the Belgians are probably over 5,000 years late in making the claim.
Many years ago, my dad had a genuine ex-British Army "jerry can" from WWII. Good thick steel, with a fine threaded cap. Solid and safe as houses.
Of course, one day #1 son (me) was sent to the gas station to fill it up so I could mow the grass (Dad had finally accepted that me mowing a quarter acre with a manual mower that was dull as dishwater was Not Going To Happen) and the officious operator shut off the pump because my can wasn't red and it didn't have the right warning labels. The fact that it had been an effective and safe gasoline container for about 30 years at that point made no difference to Mr. RulesMustBeObeyed.
Of course, we then had to buy a plastic can that had the right features, even though it was leaky and easily punctured. Sad.
Ah, that old carrot.
If you know your stuff, you can really get then wound up - to start with, the response is "so, which law says so ?" They won't be able to answer, because the law doesn't support their argument. The best they may be able to come up with would be their site safety and operations manuals making it a company rule, not law.
Meanwhile, they will realise that you are blocking some of the pumps, and keeping their attendant from serving customers, and tying up the manager (depending on site/size whether there is a manager as such there), ... in other words, it's costing them money while they pee you off and they might eventually figure it would make more sense to just serve you.
Depends whether you are in a hurry, and your appetite for mischief that day.
This came up a few years ago in a different forum, and someone helpfully did all the digging down to identify which law would cover it - and no it doesn't specify the material or even markings for a container. IIRC, the post that kicked that off was someone being refused service because they had plastic containers ! I've also heard of people refused LPG (into purpose designed refillable cylinders) because of the "rule" that "cylinders can't be filled". Or refused LPG into a purpose installed refillable system installed in a caravan with a filler the same as a car - for the same "cylinders can't be refilled" argument.
But at the end of the day, you have to remember that the forecourt staff will have been through some training - and will have been given a number of rules to follow. Amongst those rules will have been some about portable containers - whether the rule is right or wrong, sensible or not, is beside the point, the forecourt staff have to apply them.
A lot of LPG attendants don't know the laws and, to be frank, are vaguely terrified of the whole process. Here in the US, portable BBQ bottles have a date after which they have to either be re-inspected or discarded. Tanks built into RVs do not have this requirement. I've had attendants refuse to fill the tank in my RV because it's too old or doesn't have an inspection sticker. This is something of a blessing in disguise because if they don't know that, it's a good bet they don't know the fill procedure, either, which on RV tanks of this vintage means opening a bleed valve and filling until liquid propane squirts out.
Ah, the era when gas stations had attendants. That IS a while back now. ;)
On the opposite end of that spectrum, a friend of mine reported watching some guys in South Carolina try to fill up a styrofoam cooler with gas during a hurricane evacuation. He said the gas hit the bottom of the cooler and went straight through without even slowing down.
Every single plastic "safe and non-polluting" gas can I've ever used has spilled more gas than the "unsafe, polluting" steel jerrycans of my yoot, Until a friend turned me on to Rotopax gas cans (rotopax.com), retro-fitted with aftermarket jerrycan-style spouts (amazon or ebay, probably).
Rotopax gas cans come in all shapes and sizes to fit most needs, and have a very useful and secure mounting system. They are spendy, but they work, don't spill or leak. and they last. I have a few knocking around here that are well over five years old, used near daily, and show no signs of quitting on me. Highly recommended.
Yeah, where I work it can be hard at times navigating the world according to woke snowflakes looking for something that someone else must find offensive or ... "not inclusive". Or worse, find that your've transgressed this week's rules on what constitutes "unacceptable" language - c.f. woke snowflake mentioned in first sentence who might choose to ignore the obvious interpretation of what a particular word means because picking a different (and in the context, not a rational choice) interpretation allows them to label it at inappropriate.
Crowing, is a particular expression of the mechanic of bragging.
Bragging is a mechanism of social politics.
Social politics is an influence game played for gain. Whether that gain be emotional, territorial, economical or otherwise.
The motivations for crowing, have nothing to do with accuracy. And everything to do with borrowing others to gives indirectly oneself permission to feel good, as well as manipulating and harvesting from the social realm to further one's own well-being.
So with that in mind,
Reasons for crowing are highly individualized and not subject to standards external to the individual perspective crower.
If "Apache" is a Zuni word meaning "enemy" why not call it the NME web server?
https://www.nps.gov/articles/apache.htm#:~:text=The%20Nde%20people%20refer%20to,%2C%20which%20means%20%E2%80%9Cenemy%E2%80%9D.
A Brief History of the Nde
Traveling south from Canada hundreds of years ago, the Nde (Apache) people joined the Sonoran Desert region of the Pimería Alta around 1200 AD according to most historians and linguists. The Nde people refer to themselves as Nde, Inde, Tinde, or Tinneh, which means, “The people.” The term Apache that is commonly used to refer to the Nde people actually comes from the Zuni word ápachu, which means “enemy”.
"This frankly outdated spaghetti-Western 'romantic' presentation of a living and vibrant community as dead and gone in order to build a technology company 'for the greater good' is as ignorant as it is offensive."
Carry on like this and your community really will be dead and gone. Nobody will be allowed to speak your name, make reference to you, honour you, write about you... you'd better wish you don't get what you're asking for.
I can sympathize with Prince (never thought I'd ever say THAT!).
Almost 50 years ago, I legally changed my name to "jake"[0], all lower-case, as my legal name on everything from my tax returns to the deed to my house to my passport to my driver's license. For several years. Caused no end of headaches for "the authorities" ... which, as a young man who understood database programing, I took great delight in.
Then I grew up, no longer having time to "be pulled aside" by petty officials. Today, I use the name my parents gave me on legal stuff. I'm the same dude, regardless of handle ... but everyone who knew me back then still calls me jake.
MY name could be typed on (most) standard keyboards, I can't imagine the headaches he went through.
[0] Name changed to protect the guilty ...
Try having multiple forenames (common where I come from) and have the SECOND one of those as first name. That causes problems in so many countries, you'd wonder just how enlightened the people in my home country must have been to be able to handle that as perfectly normal several decades ago.
To make matters worse, my first name is, umm, let's call it old fashioned. For credit cards this is OK, as long as the company is not called Revolut you'll be fine, the bank will put on there whatever you want, but when I lived in the UK and the GP wanted to register me again with my first forename as first name I stopped them. First they were adamant that "the system required it", but when I asked them to sign an agreement that they accepted responsibility if I got in an accident and they couldn't find my data as everything in my wallet has my second name, as well as business cards they caved pretty quickly (not that that mattered much as most of theses systems work off DOB, but I had enough at that point).
It is astonishing to see that in the 21st century there are still so many systems that cannot distinguish between forenames and first name. And no, I won't formally have the sequence changed (the process is equivalent to changing your name). I'm kinda stubborn that way :).
This post has been deleted by its author
Have the so-called "Natives in Tech" bothered to actually ask the Apache what their take on the situation is? Or are they just shooting off their mouths, being offended on the behalf of others, who probably don't give a shit one way or the other? It's not exactly likely that nobody who is Apache has ever noticed this use of the name.
I rather suspect the so-called "Natives in Tech" should stick to policing their own. If THEIR tribe is offended by the technical world appropriating their names/symbols/etc., fair enough. But don't speak for somebody else without permission. It make all y'all look like you're trying to make a power-grab ... and trust me, you are NOT in charge of this. The Apache are, if anyone is.
I wondered about that, too. If the Apache tribal leadership had an "official" issue with the use of their name for the web server software, I'd think they would have taken it up with the software people long before now.
This, though, sounds like a few guys who either a) wanted some free press for some reason or b) went looking for something to get offended about. Possibly even both.
I can't help thinking this has been set off by Big Corp trademark trolling - every few months we hear of a Mom & Pop store with a Scottish name getting the cease and desist letter from a giant burger-monger. Or similar.
So now every bar-stool lawyer thinks they can play the game without realising it is a real quick way to make your brand look toxic if the public turn out not to be on your side.
(C) Goliath Enterprises...
No they are big fans of the helicopter names, some tribal leaders even blessed the latest one
It turns out that having the army naming attack helicopters after you because of your fearsome reputation in fighting the US cavalry is way cooler than a web server.
My local high school is the "Braves". They have a positive portrayal of Native America culture, teach classes on the subject, and the local tribes fully support & endorse the school naming.
Nevertheless, every few years some big-city person shows up and starts screaming at school board meetings about changing the name.
I am glad, as a society, this is the biggest issue we have to deal with. Not inflation, not the economy crashing, not increasing unemployment......
The first nations youth center here has a mural of typical plains Indians on horses with feather headresses and bows and arrows - straight out of a John Wayne movie. Except we're in the Pacific North West and these are coastal Salish people.
I suppose it's no different from a school having Spartans as their football team.
Yeah, about that "Spartans" name for sports teams...
https://worldhistory.us/ancient-history/ancient-greece/were-the-spartans-gay-homosexuality-in-sparta-ancient-greece.php
https://www.greek-love.com/antiquity/pederasty-in-ancient-sparta
Just make sure the coaches gets the parents' consent or something?!
So for a very long time the "Land O Lakes" brand had a picture of a female native american surrounded by a background of a nice big open landscape.
Apparently some modern woke pale faces were "offended" about that.
So the company happily removed the Native American from the landscape and all the woke pale faces were happy to just have a landscape with no Native Americans shown.
Which pretty much is exactly historically what the pale faces did some time back. Remove Native American, keep land.
You have to wonder if when they were coming up with the great idea to just remove the Native American from the picture, anybody thought about the coincidental historical significance?
https://www.apache.org/apache-name/
The name Apache isn't even used by members of the tribe.
https://study.com/learn/lesson/apache-tribe-facts-location-culture-history.html#:~:text=The%20Apache%20are%20believed%20to,plains%20regions%20of%20North%20America.
Apache Tribe: Name and Etymology
The name "Apache" comes from the Pueblo-Zuni word, "Apachu," meaning "enemy". The name was then widely used by other groups to describe the Apache people while the Apache people called themselves many different names including: "Inde," "Tinde," and "Tinneh," all meaning "the people." Europeans and Americans most often referred to the Apache Natives as 'Apache Indians," which was the dominant terminology well into the twentieth century. Efforts have since been made to push names like "Native American" or "Indigenous American" as opposed to "American Indian," but some native groups still accept or prefer the "Indian" descriptor to identify themselves.
Apache in itself is actually a derogatory term that shouldnt be used to describe a native America peoplle and anyone who says otherwise is either clueless or tryting to sell you something.
* New York change it's name and pay reparations to the city of York,
* The state of New Hampshire change it's name and pay reparations to Hampshire
* The New England area stop calling itself that and pay reparations to England
* All those calling themselves *-American (eg Irish, Italian, Greek etc) stop. It's been enough generations now...
I could go on, but I'm sure people get the point
I was a leveller but after recent events, I am leaning towards being a digger.
Just thinking aloud here but in the case of the need for a rename, how about
Seagull Software Foundation. Minor modification to the logo. Many will come up with rationales...
Just rename it AppCache Software Foundation, problem solved.
Or if that name is the incorrect technical description of what they do (and it probably is) - why not "Takashi Software Foundation"?
It sounds enough like the old name - and in Japanese the name can mean - Dutiful, Prosper or Ambition. Their work as a non-profit has been dutiful, and we've all prospered from it, and it's probably ambitious... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"Recognizing the work to be done, the tech industry believes it can save businesses from their own employees. Firms like Ongig and Textrics have arisen to offer text analysis systems that purportedly can catch documents like job listings with sexist, racist, and generally offensive terms."
Most of the time anti-(race/sex/...)ism is actually MORE (race/sex/...)ist than the original, because the anti-(race/sex/...)ist bases it's decision based on trying to go for what it thinks the opposite kind of (race/sex/...)ist would go for, rather than trying to be more accurate.
One of the guys from Ops really hates this kind of thing. One of his ancestors departed Scotland for North America in 16<mumble>; said ancestor took a good look at the state of Scots colonies and voluntarily departed for an English settlement. You gotta know things were bad when a Scot would _choose_ to associate with Sassenach. Said Scot took up with a local girl (there are limits to how far a self-respecting Scot will go when associating with Sassenach) (no, she was NOT Cherokee, he was far too far north for that) and so the Ops guy says that it's really hard to get more native American than he is. He once had words with an 'activist' who didn't like the painting of his great-great-repeat-grandmother, apparently it was 'eurocentric' and 'insulting'. The 'activist' got lit up in all-out Scots Gaelic. Complained to HR. HR recalled that this was the guy who, when certain idiots attempted to set up a dress code, came to work in full-out kilt and plaid https://kiltsandmore.com/highland-wear/men-s-clothing-accessories/kilts/belted-plaid-great-kilt-f-ileadh-m-r-/belted-plaid-great-kilt-f-ileadh-m-r--:p1000BLTP:c707:len.html and dared someone to say anything, and said nothing. 'Activist' was miffed. The rest of us laughed.
Why do the indigenous peoples of the world want to be so anonymous ? Surely it is a compliment to their status that moves a company to adopt the name of a person/place/tribe/community ? No company wants to be associated with a name that has negative connotations so the name they pick will be a sigil they honour. Maybe by the sin of omission that isn't made clear enough often enough. IMHO anyway...
I'll upvote. The first helicopter given a tribal name was the Bell model 47 'Sioux' in the late 40's*.
It's a small helicopter and the rotors could be sweeping quite low at the front so tall people risked being being scalped.
Did eight decades of naming start as dark military humour?
* as seen in the M*A*S*H TV show intro.
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