back to article Look! Up in the sky! Proof of concept for satellites beaming energy to Earth!

A recent demonstration has proven the feasibility of the European Space Agency's (ESA) plan to beam power to Earth from space, giving the astro agency some additional ammunition as it prepares to ask its governing body for more cash to fund solar energy research.  The ESA's space-based solar power (SBSP) initiative created a …

  1. KittenHuffer Silver badge
    Boffin

    You also get the problem ....

    .... of your huge orbiting solar panel becoming a target for every little piece of junk that is floating around up there. You're certainly not going to be able to dodge incoming junk the way the ISS (and other satellites) can.

    Probably the only way to avoid that issue (or at least greatly reduce it) would be to use GEO. And that just increases the fuel cost for getting it up there.

    Of course what you really want to do is visit a NEO asteroid, and (somehow) shift it into Earth orbit. Then you just need to solve mining/smelting/manufacturing/construction in space and Robert's your Mothers brother!

    I think I should patent the idea!

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      Nice idea, but I'm guessing that beaming energy from a geostationary orbit would require an order of magnitude in tightening the beam so as to not to have a 200km-wide reception area.

      If said satellite is is low Earth orbit, it's likely a lot easier to hit a (relatively) small region on the ground.

      But you're right, it is also very much more at risk of getting shredded by space junk.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        If said satellite is is low Earth orbit, it's likely a lot easier to hit a (relatively) small region on the ground.

        It would be if it wasn’t zipping past at 17,000 mph.

      2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        These things need to be at GEO otherwise it's way harder to target a fixed area on the ground. Beam steering tech could help, but it's extra complexity and mass.

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          Beam steering tech could help, but it's extra complexity and mass.

          I thought the idea was to use phased arrays of aerials rather than any mechanical technology? Beam forming and steering is then built in.

        2. Martin Gregorie

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          There's another problem beyond the requirement to actively steer the beam of a non-geostationary solar power satellite: you must choose one of the following designs:

          - have 4 or 5 terrestrial power collection stations space equally round the Earth. The power satellite aims its beam at these in sequence as it orbits the earth above them.

          - have 4 or 5 power satellites that all use the one terrestrial collection station in sequence so it provides 24 hour service.

          - have one power satellite and one ground station and put up with it only working for 20% to 25% of the time.

          It's either choose one of those options or bite the bullet and accept the cost of a set of geostationary power satellites.

          NOTE: I'm assuming that, like the giant American and Indian solar panel arrays, the power satellite's ground station energy collector would not be steerable due to its sheer size. As a result the combined effect of atmospheric beam absorption and lower efficiency of the collector when the power satellite isn't overhead will limit efficient operation to a roughly 45-50 degree cone above it.

          1. Crypto Monad Silver badge

            Re: You also get the problem ....

            There seems to be an obvious alternative.

            It's always sunny somewhere on earth. Therefore, build one or more power cables that circumnavigate the globe, and connects those sunny hot spots together into a global grid. Windy ones too.

            Certainly, it would be quite expensive: but it's already been done (that is, there are high-voltage DC cables running undersea already), and it's just a case of scaling up. It would last for a long time, and even if parts of it were 4km under the sea, it would be a hell of a lot easier to maintain than something in orbit.

            I believe there are smaller scale proposals in the pipeline already, such as a cable to connect the UK to solar farms in North Africa.

            1. Tom 7

              Re: You also get the problem ....

              I live in Devon and we had field boundaries called Devon Banks which are basically hedges on top of 4 foot or so earth and stone walls. I went up my drive way when the idiots announced their intention to ban PV on farms and looked and realised that most of the boundaries are aligned n/s or e/w and that in about 4sq miles there was enough sth ish facing banks to put up 2MW of PV that would not take up any of the grazing land which is the main use here. There's probably >2GW of 'land' free south facing banks which would have a profound effect on CO2 reduction and make a lot of cash for cash strapped farmers. I personally have a stock fence that needs replacing and I could use PV as the barrier and install 50KW with very little loss of land utility. £5kpa or 10% return PA. Or I could wait for the perovskite which may provide 150KW in a couple of years for similar investment. Though if I could put up wind I could do a further 300KW and get my money back in 5 (well probably 7 as I'd have to bribe my next door neighbour unless he realises he could do it too!

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: You also get the problem ....

                Yeahbut, those hedgerows are ecosystems vital to the survival of $something!!!! You can't save the planet by killing stuff, oh nooooo!

                On a slightly more serious note, any field used only for sheep grazing should be good for solar panels even using the standard mounting systems used now. I doubt the sheep would care. They might even be grateful for the extra shade in summer or, more commonly, somewhere to shelter from the rain :-) Cows, not so much. They'd probably knock them over using them as scratching posts, even of they were built taller to allow the cows to move around more freely.

                And then there's fields of solar panels mounted vertically, south facing which apparently only reduces capacity by a small amount but still allows the machinery to get in and plant/maintain/harvest crops. between the rows of panels.

        3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          I don't think it would be necessary. Comm satellites need beam forming to direct signal where it's needed over large expanses (and more importantly phase out unwanted ground stations) but a power bird would only be directing power to one point, the reception station. It would need a moveable directional antenna (and a spare or two) that would concentrate the energy to one specific point, and be able to track that point. A phased array would probably work, but would be a very expensive solution to a simple problem. Later, more powerful satellites might be able to support multiple sites when the tech matures, but initially one satellite will send power to one ground station.

        4. Jaybus

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          Solar-pumped iodine or NdCrYAG laser can help with that. No need for less efficient PV cells.

      3. Vulch

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        It's a trade-off. If the satellite is in LEO it's only in sight of each ground station for a short time each day and the beam has to be actively steered. Losses are greater if it's in GEO, but the satellite is always line of sight to the ground station and beam adjustments are minimal.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          "Losses are greater if it's in GEO,"

          Assuming the power is beamed tightly enough to keep it focussed on the receiving station such that it doesn't cook the people and wildlife outside the area, how much extra loss is there between LEO and GEO? Loss is normally defined as the inverse square law, but isn't that based on a point source with an ever expanding "zone of reception"? I'd think most of the loss would the the final leg of the journey through the atmosphere. Am I completely off base here?

    2. Andrew Newstead

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      The original planning for SSPS by Philip Glaser and Gerard K O’Neil in the 1970’s proposed building the satellites from materials mined on the moon and launched to geostationary Earth orbit by electromagnetic rail launcher. The argument was that it would be more economical and less disruptive than launching massive rockets from Earth. The concept still has merit.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        It's not a new idea either.

        Heinlein knew his science.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          I was thinking of a Tom Swift book, myself, possibly The City in the Stars. Tom makes a video call to someone, who's wearing a special metal suit because he's at the Earth end of one of these energy-transmitting systems.

      2. Ken G Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        I remember reading some articles in Analog about possibly building a steam power satellite, keep the engineering simple and to what we know and using the sun/shade temperature differential to boil and cool water running through turbines.

        1. Muscleguy

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          There’s a serious proposal to put a lander on Venus which is clockwork. Our electronics won’t survive so you ultra harden a small electric beamer for data but everything else is mechanical.

        2. SotarrTheWizard
          Go

          Re: You also get the problem ....

          Solar Thermal in orbit is workable, although I would think it would be more likely a liquified metal used for thermal transfer, rather than water.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: You also get the problem ....

            Solar Thermal in orbit is workable

            Not just workable, but very sensible. Flat earthers whine about resource shortages, whilst doing their damndest to create them. So we've had-

            * Oil/gas. Ban it now! Ban exploration, extraction and transportation. Sanction anyone who supplies it.

            * Food. Turn it into fuel because we've banned oil/gas. Sanction one of the world's largest producers/exporters. Ban and/or sanction fertilisers because higher crop yields are bad. Oh, and make everyone turn into vegetables because meat is also bad. Limiting supply and increasing demand is obviously good.

            * Mining. Also bad. Unless it's happening off-shore where nobody (important) notices. Ban mining in US and EU, mandate EVs that need stuff mined somewhere else.

            Meanwhile, space is full of resources. Ok, so Tim Worstall pointed out a few thorny economic arguments about this. But move asteroids into orbit, or a Lagrange* point, use solar furnaces to smelt them and call it good. Getting those resources back down to Earth is relatively simple. Gravity. Duck!

            * Everything you need to know about physics of those can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg9cNGHl-bg

            1. SotarrTheWizard
              Go

              Re: You also get the problem ....

              The late Dr. Jerry Pournelle described it this way:

              “Out there in space it's raining soup, and we don't know about soup bowls.”

              I, for one, am willing to invest in Soup Bowl Technology. . . (grin)

    3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      It's going to have to be in GEO isn't it? Otherwise it's going to have three problems: tracking the ground station, being on the wrong side of the planet to do so half the time, and being in the Earth's shadow for a significant amount of time as well.

      GEO is "high" enough that, for the most part, the Earth won't get between it and the sun, and for maximum efficiency, you really want it directly above the receiving station, because every degree you're off by is going to decrease the receiving efficiency (and make the ground target non-circular)

      1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        It's going to have to be in GEO isn't it?

        Yes: from the ESA webpage of the project (link in article):

        "For a working version of a Space-Based Solar Power system, solar power satellites in geostationary orbit would harvest sunlight on a permanent 24/7 basis"

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      How we actually did it where I am from was redirecting a fairly robust asteroid into close orbit and putting the more fragile satellite(s) further out but into a safer orbit and at a much slower (relative) speed. The asteroid would then serve as an intermediary between the two. It was also fairly covered in panels as a bonus.

      Importantly, the rotation between the two was such that contact between them both could be sustained for longer for energy transfer.

      1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: You also get the problem ....

        Which planetary system are you from, and may I be King of Wales?

    5. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      "that just increases the fuel cost for getting it up there."

      We're talking about a giant solar sail. Get it high enough to get the sun on it, and the rest is free.

    6. fishman

      Re: You also get the problem ....

      If you put it in GEO you have the problem of those pesky LEO satellites zipping through the beams - will they get fried?

  2. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    Mad dogs and Englishmen

    Go out in the mid-day sun...

    I wonder how many of those 250W/m^2 are absorbed by human skin? It might not light fires, but are we seeing a new economy-sized area denial weapon?

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

      The article clearly states that, standing at the equator, you get blasted by four times that amount of energy.

      There doesn't seem to be much economy denial going on there right now.

      1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

        ...because the equator is famous for hosting the worlds most developed economies?

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

        The article clearly states that, standing at the equator, you get blasted by four times that amount of energy.

        Kinda. So insolation is around 1000W/m^2, so you'd be 'blasted' by 1250W/m^2 in total. Curious exactly what frequency they're using though because water vapour is notorious for absorbing microwaves. Plus the potential for interfering with, or damaging anything else using those frequencies. Still has potential for doing fun things, like stimulating clouds, jamming or enhancing microwave-using stuff.

        There's also the cost/benefit, ie utiliising the power would need an enhanced solar farm in the beam spot which would basically end up 25% more efficient than a regular panel.

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

          I think they're likely to be avoiding those wavelengths that are absorbed by water, because there's quite a lot of it in the atmosphere...

      3. adam 40 Silver badge
        Alert

        Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

        You can avoid the 1000W/m2 with a simple device called a white shirt, or even a parasol.

        How can you avoid the 250W/m2 that will pass straight into your body? Maybe a tinfoil hat?

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

          Yeah, there aren't any frequencies in sunlight that aren't completely reflected by magical white shirts.

          I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but this sort of argument is reduction to absurdity. "Microwaves" are typically defined as 300 MHz to 300 GHz, more or less. That's a pretty big chunk of spectrum, and there's some variation on the effects on living organisms over it. Sunlight is also not a single amplitude or frequency. The situation is more complicated than "25% MOAR BAD!!!1!".

    2. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      Re: Mad dogs and Englishmen

      I wonder how many of those 250W/m^2 are absorbed by human skin?

      I think I'd worry about metal fillings (or other implants) more. Hot teeth could be very unpleasant.

  3. Sceptic Tank Silver badge

    It's a good thing the South African government isn't building this. It would cost about the same as a Dyson sphere and provide the same amount of power as 2xAA cells. Compare Kusile power station.

    1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

      Every government is useless. Everybody accepts this. Why people vote for more of it is beyond me.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Douglas Adams got it right

        Otherwise the wrong lizard might get in.

      2. Stork Silver badge

        I think you are too hard.

        Try to consider places with little (functioning) government, e.g Somalia, or places within countries where government doesn’t reach, and I think you find they are not so useless after all.

        1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          The point of governments is to occupy the power vacuum so you don't end up like those places.

      3. fidodogbreath

        Every government is useless. Everybody accepts this. Why people vote for more of it is beyond me.

        Not useless so much as poorly implemented...

        1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

          Poorly implemented because government is something that is too difficult to be done well so the less of it ( to a point ) that we have, the better.

      4. Spherical Cow Silver badge

        There are some Scandinavian governments doing pretty well.

  4. Evil Auditor Silver badge

    Microwaves, the ESA notes, operate at a non-ionizing frequency that won't cause cellular damage

    The dead cat in my microwave oven tends to disagree. Seriously though, 2GW spread over 10 square kilometers is in the same order as regular solar radiation on European soil, on a sunny winter day. Or did I miscalculate something here? I'm slightly underwhelmed by the fact that this microwave beam wouldn't even heat my porridge.

    1. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
      Boffin

      The fact that it would be additional to the photovoltaics. They could easily mount the microwave receivers above photovoltaic panels, doubling the power.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        They could easily mount the microwave receivers above photovoltaic panels, doubling the power.

        Nope. That would shadow the solar PV panels. You'd need to make a panel that's sensitive across the normal solar spectrum and the microwave band, otherwise you could end up just reducing the effectiveness of a plain'ol panel.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Or mount a microwave receiver on the back of each solar panel and put both on a rotatable axle. Sunny-side up during the day, moony-side up during the night.

        2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Did you miss the bit in the article that said that the microwave receivers are essentially transparent?

          In practice, I'd expect them to be a wire mesh with a mesh size tuned to the microwave wavelength (tens of centimetres probably) or something like that. I am, of course, not an RF engineer, so this is a possibly naïve assumption.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Did you miss the bit in the article that said that the microwave receivers are essentially transparent?

            Like the Emperor's clothes? To be fair, the ESA guff is remarkably light on anything useful. Yey! They transmitted power 36m! Yey! They'll be able to beam power from space, and use it to make 'green hydrogen'.

            In practice, I'd expect them to be a wire mesh with a mesh size tuned to the microwave wavelength (tens of centimetres probably) or something like that. I am, of course, not an RF engineer, so this is a possibly naïve assumption.

            I think there are many assumptions. One given is the ESA's PR is shite. It's supposed to be proper science, so gimme a link to a paper, or papers describing the project with some meat. I was optimistic that would be the download link, but no, that's just to get an artists impression. But after following a bunch of links, I found this-

            https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Space_Engineering_Technology/SOLARIS/SBSP_overview

            The power is then transmitted wirelessly in the form of microwaves at 2.45 GHz to dedicated receiver stations on Earth, called ‘rectennas’, which convert the energy back into electricity and feed it into the local grid.

            Plus a bunch of other PFM PR waffle. See also-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_absorption_by_water#Microwaves_and_radio_waves

            The absorption (equivalent to dielectric loss) is used in microwave ovens to heat food that contains water molecules. A frequency of 2.45 GHz, wavelength 122 mm, is commonly used.

            So I guess they could do H2 cracking in transit, if they just up the transmitter power. Capturing the H2 would be a challenge though. I get the feeling this will go the way of Tesla (Nikolai) transmission experiments.

            1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Offhand, using 2.45 GHz seems like a bit of an odd choice, since lower frequencies would have less loss (not just from water vapor but other atmospheric components) and would allow rectennas with larger grid spacing, which in turn would use less material per unit area and allow more visible light through. But I guess that would mean a larger ground station, which in turn would wipe out the latter two savings? This is very much outside my areas of expertise, though.

  5. Jess--

    With solar panels of that size in space wouldn't they just act as a solar sail?

    If they do then it would make station keeping an interesting problem.

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Solar sail

      Light pressure is tiny and only makes a big difference to really thin films. You are looking for a massively huge difference here. That 1km satellite looking like a small moon gives an altitude of about 100km. At 100km the vacuum of space is so thick that air resistance would drop a lead brick before it completed a single orbit. A more realistic altitude would be 300-500km. A huge surface area satellite would still need a large collection of ion thrusters to remain in orbit. Their required mass, the mass of the propellant and the support structure would swamp light pressure and we haven't even got to cooling yet. The supplied figures assume magic >80% efficient conversion of sun light to microwaves. Even with that magic the waste heat would be huge and the heat sink to stop the satellite melting would add another layer of mass.

      Has anyone seen real numbers for SOLARIS? I followed some of the links and all I found were hand-wavy power-point slides. No proposed satellite orbit+altitude, no figure for overall conversion efficiency. The old proposals were GEO satellites that had to beam power tens of thousands of km but could hit a single receiver all day and night. This sound more like a SSO constellation. The satellites remain in sun light all the time but can only hit targets near dawn/dusk. Similar economics to Starlink: profitable when the satellites pass over rich Americans with monopoly priced broad band but the satellites spend much of their time over regions sparsely populated by poor people.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Solar sail

        Even with that magic the waste heat would be huge and the heat sink to stop the satellite melting would add another layer of mass.

        Depending on the materials it's made of, wouldn't you just work out where the thermal equilibrium from black-body radiation is, and engineer it to operate in that temperature range? There are plenty of alloys that are fine at hundreds of degrees centigrade, and AFAIK PV cells tend to be made from ceramic materials, which mostly don't care until you're in the high hundreds of degrees.

        In any case, why are you expecting any more heat than any other satellite that is in the glare of the sun has to deal with? It's not like the ISS is covered in a mass of 1950s style space-fins to radiate away waste heat, for example.

      2. midgepad

        GEO is

        a lot higher.

        40 000km IIRC

    2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Yes, the solar sail aspect is key to the concept. It's not a big problem to differentially angle parts of the sail to get zero net thrust.

  6. Zebo-the-Fat

    Problem

    The problem would be the loud moaning of the Karens, they think that 5G causes cancer, so what will they say to orbiting microwave ovens beaming death rays at them?

    1. b0llchit Silver badge

      Re: Problem

      Ehm,...

      All hail to the Beamer, May our enemies be Toast?

    2. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      Re: Problem

      The problem would be the loud moaning of the Karens, they think that 5G causes cancer, so what will they say to orbiting microwave ovens beaming death rays at them?

      If they all go and hide in caves, never to come out again, I'd call that a win. Unless we had a future Morlock problem.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Problem

        Morlocks that stand around insisting on speaking to someone in Eloi Customer Service don't seem like much of a problem.

  7. PhilipN Silver badge

    Redemption for Tesla?

    No - the bloke

  8. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
    Holmes

    More importantly than providing power, how much would it cost for my dreary English seaside town to have a whip-around, knock one of these together and turn our bit of the coast into the costa-del-England?

  9. deive

    "That means the land underneath could still potentially be available for agricultural use."...

    https://www.wired.com/story/growing-crops-under-solar-panels-now-theres-a-bright-idea/

  10. steelpillow Silver badge
    Holmes

    Um

    The major source of global warming is actually the sun's energy. Without it our greenhouse gases would have nothing to work on.

    I know, let's beam down MORE solar energy!

    Funny how nobody has made the calculation to see how much of it also gets retained in the greenhouse.

    To be fair, nuclear also suffers the same problem; we just beam it out from a reactor core instead.

    But I do wonder how much greenhouse shit gets belched out by the satellite's manufacture and by the rocket that blasts it up there, and whether it will really recoup all that over its operational lifetime.

    I would have preferred an elephant-in-the-room icon, but there you go.

    1. Francis Boyle Silver badge

      The calculation has been made many times

      including on these very pages if I'm not mistaken. I won't repeat it but I will point out that the power consumed by humans is roughly equivalent to the sunlight falling on a small country, i.e. insignificant on a planetary scale.

    2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: Um

      The heat is not the problem, the problem is the heat equilibrium.

      Hotter things radiate heat away faster. The way that solar radiation is trapped by the atmosphere is that the wavelengths of light mostly pass straight through on the way in (because it is mostly visible light), heat the ground up, and are then radiated away, through black-body radiation at infrared wavelengths. There are components of the atmosphere that absorb infrared and are heated by them (such as CO2 and methane), thus causing further heating of the atmosphere. This is eventually re-radiated (at a longer wavelength, because most of the atmosphere is typically colder than the ground), but it puts a brake on the energy that comprises that heat* from leaving the planet, thus shifting the equilibrium and causing a temperature rise. This is called the "greenhouse effect".

      With that in mind, the amounts of energy involved here are miniscule, compared to solar heating, so direct heating of the planet by human activity can be disregarded compared to the greenhouse effect.

      *There is a distinction between heat and temperature that those who are not educated in the physical sciences may miss here. Heat is the energy used to make something hot, and temperature is how hot it is. In lay use, the terms are largely interchangeable, so this can cause some confusion. Different materials take different amounts of heat to raise their temperature. Water, for example, takes 4.2 KJ to raise 1 kg by 1 °C.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Um

        The heat is not the problem, the problem is the heat equilibrium.

        There is a distinction between heat and temperature that those who are not educated in the physical sciences may be unaware of. Namely heat is just energy in motion. The actual problem is 'Equilbrium Climate Sensitivity', or ECS. So how much additional heat is created for any given quantity of a a taxable commodity, in this case CO2, methane etc etc.

        ...heat the ground up, and are then radiated away, through black-body radiation at infrared wavelengths.

        For CO2, there's pretty much only 4 of those. Three of which overlap with H2O. But 'black-bodies' are how the gish-gallop begins. Assume the Earth as a black body, calculate what it's temperature should be. Look at what the measured temperature is, and the difference is the 'greenhouse effect'. Which is trivially true, although the Earth never has been a black body (in an albedo sense) but an open, dynamic system with a lot of variables in play. Climate 'science' mostly ignores all those except CO2, and decides pre-1850 the Earth had an 'euquilibrium' temperature that we've disrupted. So hand over $100bn+ a year to the UN please.

        You are right about energy being radiated away though from surface to atmosphere to space. Our 'greenhouse' doesn't have a roof on it you see.

        There are components of the atmosphere that absorb infrared and are heated by them (such as CO2 and methane),

        Don't forget water. There's a lot more of that in the atmosphere, and it massively dominates any effect from CO2, which is only present in the atmosphere in homeopathic quantities. But water is a better way to think about Global Warming. So you're sunbathing on a nice, clear sunny day. A cloud passes over. It gets cooler because the cloud is blocking some of the energy from the Sun. It doesn't get warmer because the clouds are re-radiating from surface to cloud to skin because the energy involved at the wavelengths in question is teeny in comparison to the total solar irradiance.

        But you fell asleep, it got dark. If it's a clear night, it'll get colder than if it were cloudy. There, the effect of a cloud 'greenhouse' is more noticeable. It's even measurable. Yet climate pseudoscienttists fixate on maximum daytime temperatures, not night time. Probably because there's no statistically significant difference in Tmin that could be attributed to CO2. Plus of course marketing.

        Main issue though is even if a photon from the ground hits a CO2 molecule, and is bounced back to the ground, it's going to radiate away again almost instantaneously, unless it's absorbed by something and not re-radiated straight away. IR is not well known for being able to do this, ie it doesn't penetrate deep into water, where other physical processes like conduction, convection, evaporation etc play a much greater role in heat transfer than radiation. Climate 'scientists' gloss over this by being flat-earthers and assuming 50% radiated up & down from atmosphere to surface. Reality is a CO2 molecule is going to emit a photon in a random direction, and as altitude increases, the probability of hitting the surface decreases.

  11. Stuart Castle Silver badge
    Joke

    On the plus side..

    Sounds like we could save some money on our home energy bill by just plating up our food, sticking it on the Window sill and waiting while it's microwaved.

    1. steelpillow Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: On the plus side..

      I confidently predict a fashion for matte black dishes. Even the present solar grunt is enough to fry an egg placed on black tarmac.

      Add a glass lid, and you create a tiny greenhouse microclimate for good measure.

      Look, don't laugh, I have seen guys wrap a fish in kitchen foil and cook it on the exhaust manifold of their car. And more realistically, solar barbecues complete with parabolic plastic mirror are a thing. In fact I'll give away a free mirror with each casserole dish. There is a market out there for sure.

      1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: On the plus side..

        Solar ovens are also a thing. Similar to the solar bbqs you mention.

        1. Eclectic Man Silver badge

          Re: On the plus side..

          On a trip to Nepal it seemed that every house outside the main towns had a parabolic reflector for heating a kettle of water easily to boiling point. he reflector was usually covered with reflective tape, not even a 'mirror' finish, but still worked.

        2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: On the plus side..

          Yup. Lots of folks 'round these parts have solar ovens, since we get ~300 sunny days a year, and with the altitude and low humidity passive solar heating can be quite intense.

          Granddaughter Major and I put one together out of cardboard boxes, aluminium foil, and an old window last summer. Needs some tweaking to be really effective, but it heats up enough to do some cookery.

  12. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    This may be a silly question but if you put a multiple square kilometres of solar panels in geostationary orbit, where do their shadows fall and, if on the earth's surface, how much does that reduce local surface temperature?

    How many satellites are they proposing - 100s to make it economic one assumes? What about spending that massive investment on solar panels and putting them on every house roof for free and gaining the same benefit?

    1. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

      The problem with wind and solar is that you can't rely on its output so you need to spend far more than just the cost of the turbines/panels buying batteries which makes solar economically unviable.

      If the panels are in space there is no weather and no night-time. I assume the beamed energy will be able to penetrate clouds of course.

      If you can bypass the lack of reliability by putting reflectors in space, that solves the problem.

      Whether this is cheaper than building batteries or waiting until something actually viable comes along, I don't know.

      1. Francis Boyle Silver badge

        Or you could simply build more panels (and wind turbines) and connect them with long distance interconnects. Not cheap, but nothing like space prices either.

        1. Wellyboot Silver badge

          Ongoing events are encouraging governments to bring the entire generation process in country and not trust the neighbours.

          1. Stork Silver badge

            In particular when the neighbouring governments state that they don’t feel bound by the agreement they signed months earlier

        2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

          How long will it take, how many ground-base solar and wind and batteries and long distance ultra-high-voltage interconnects (probably DC) are needed for enough of these things to replace all fossil-fuel generatating capability and add extra capacity for electrified transportation, heating, cooking and anything else that currently uses gas (petrol and natural), and how much land do you expect this will need?

          The answers to all are variations of "huge".

          Total ground-based solar and wind are just not the answer. Massive nuclear buildout is. Or if you don't like that, space-based solar. There are limited options for producing large amounts of power while minimising land use and construction time. Nuclear and space solar are two. Pretty much everything else is compromised somewhere, be that land use, reliability, base load consistency, material quantity or any other factor you care to name.

        3. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge

          Al Quida have responded to your comment with "yes, please make Europe completely dependent on solar farms in north Africa."

      2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: I assume the beamed energy will be able to penetrate clouds of course.

        The frequency will be chosen to minimise water absorbtion. That should also limit the chances of anything alive in the path of the beam getting cooked.

      3. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: Whether this is cheaper than building batteries or waiting until something actually viable

        The technology is mostly well understood, relatively simple and relatively cheap. It's a big solar array with an microwave antenna, and recteannas on the ground capture the microwaves and convert them to electrickery.

        The scale of these things is the challenge. Even with extending trusses, and/or on-orbit manufacturing of the framework, It'll need many thousands of rocket launches to lift all the material, and that's probably where most of the costs will be.

        On-orbit manufacturing and assembly of such vast structures are also unknowns, but there are several designs that offer possible methods. Trouble is, none of those methods exist much beyond powerpoints or small lab tests.

        1. adam 40 Silver badge

          Re: Whether this is cheaper than building batteries or waiting until something actually viable

          "extending trusses" are SO last month....

        2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

          Re: Whether this is cheaper than building batteries or waiting until something actually viable

          "It'll need many thousands of rocket launches to lift all the material"

          Where do you get that idea? We're talking about a total mass equivalent to a handful of heavy lift rockets at most, as far as I'm aware. You don't need the glass protection for the solar films, so it's basically made of cling-film plus sufficient support to stretch it out. Something on the order of a quarter kilo per square metre, all in, or half that if rotation and centrifugy are used to stretch it out. For a 1km diameter array, that's 0.25*pi sq km of film and supports. A high end estimate would therefore be a million sqm at .25kg/sqm, which is a quarter of a million kg, or 250 tonnes for the solar array.

          Have I dropped a zero somewhere? 250 tonnes really isn't a problem.

      4. Eclectic Man Silver badge

        Space weather

        How would a SBSP satellite react to, or survive, a major Coronal Mass Ejection like the Carrington Event*?

        Normal Earth observation or communication satellites can be hardened to protect them from CMEs, but protecting a kilometre scale satellite generating electricity from sunlight would be quite a challenge, I suspect.

        * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      GEO LEO SSO

      Geosynchronous orbit has a circumference of 265000km and Earth has a diameter of 12600km so the shadow of a GEO satellite races across half the equator in a little over an hour once each day. The area of the Earth that catches sun light is 125 million square km. From the point of view of someone on the equator, in theory it would be possible to detect a tiny dot flicking across the sun once per day but it is not something you would be able to see. Loss of sunlight: 4 parts per billion, but you get back some of that energy from the microwaves.

      For a low Earth orbit, the satellite spends about half its time in shadow over the night side and the other half casting a shadow over the day side. That area of Earth that catches sunlight still applies. If you happen to be on the very narrow path of the shadow you might notice the sun dim for a tenth of a second. Again, some of the tiny fraction of sunlight blocked by the satellite would be made up for by the microwave energy beamed from the satellite. Less this time because a LEO satellite spend half its time in shadow while the GEO is in the dark for far less time.

      What I have seen of SOLARIS is extremely vague. I think they are talking about sun synchronous orbit. This is a weird type of LEO. The satellite crosses over the dawn area of Earth, goes over one of the poles then back across the dusk to the other pole. The Earth is a slightly flattened sphere. The gravitational pull from the bulge twists the orbit around so that the satellite remains in SSO despite the Earth going around the sun each year. The satellite would remain in sunlight all the time and its shadow would never fall on Earth. The satellite could only beam power down to stations almost directly below. These would only ever get coverage for a short time during dusk and dawn. Using several satellites each ground station could have a satellite over head each dusk and dawn. It would take many ground stations to take advantage of the continuous sunlight available to each satellite.

      What gets me is the vagueness. I have to guess the orbit from clues in the slides. The conversion efficiency from sunlight to microwaves sounds impossible. Sunlight is a mixture of wave lengths. Layers of solar panels have a preferred wave length. Anything longer does not generate electricity. Anything shorter, some of the energy is wasted. If you are prepared to pay astronomical prices you can make a panel with a few layers, each with a different preferred wave length. The hinted conversion efficiency seems to magic this problem away. Finally, the really big one: what if you zero the cost of launching the satellites. How in space could these satellites and ground stations be cheaper than solar panels on Earth?

    3. M.V. Lipvig Silver badge

      "What about spending that massive investment on solar panels and putting them on every house roof for free and gaining the same benefit?"

      Panel lifespan, for one. Solar panels have been getting produced and deployed as fast as industry can for about 25 years. Panels have a calculated lifespan of 20 to 25 years. This means more and more panel production will be going to replacing old/failed panels going forward. Space based panels will presumably be built better for a longer lifespan than the cheap Chinese knockoffs available today.

      No idea why everyone is so resistant to nuclear power, which right now is a far superior solution. Thorium reactors are far safer than the older ones, and can use the waste from older ones as fuel. The old ones were really built to produce nuclear weapon material anyway, with the electricity a nice side benefit. No carbon output. One tiny little plant can reliably produce more electricity than square miles of solar panels. A nuke wouldn't need tons of batteries to cover 24x7 operation like panels would either.

    4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Solar panels on the roofs of houses are useful in some cases, but the PV generation is limited and isn't 24/7. The idea is discussed at some length in Renewable Energy Without the Hot Air.

  13. steamnut

    Putin?

    What if Putin (or the Chinese) managed to launch a spacecraft that could change the beams target location? Kinda scary.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Putin?

      They probably wouldn't even need a spacecraft. Were this thing ever built, you can rest assured it will be highly remote-controllable, have numerous redundant Internet connections back to the ground with multiple services listening on various ports. Hell, it might even run Windows. So all the nefarious wannabe needs is a team of devoted hackers and some radio equipment.

    2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Re: Putin?

      If you're thinking of something to intercept and redirect the beam, beam spread means you'd need something bigger than the solar collection satellite. Seems impractical.

      Alternatively you could try attaching some really big rockets to the solar collector and physically change its orbit, target. The stresses on the framework could well tear it apart rather than move it, since it won't have been designed for that kind of movement.

      Or, perhaps you could try hacking the control system and retargeting the satellite.

      Even if you could somehow intercept the beam, move the satellite, or otherwise retarget it, you still need a way to focus all that energy into a tight enough beam to do any noticeable damage to anything. Focus it very tightly indeed.

      The satellite won't be able to do that itself. It would likely be designed specifically not to do that, to minimise the chances of inadvertently cooking something.

      In short, there are far more likely things to be scared about, like falling down the stairs or hit by a car.

      1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

        Re: Putin?

        "there are far more likely things to be scared about, like falling down the stairs or hit by a car."

        More likely things include being hit by a car that is falling down stairs.

  14. TDog
    FAIL

    balloons floating at altitudes of up to 300 meters

    Why bother? China has many plateaux higher than that. And if we are already getting for free 4* the energy density at the equator why not just put the solar plant on the ground there, rather than in space? Lots of advantages and huge areas of equatorial surface available, much of it comes with free easily available cooling water, albeit a bit salty. No need for expensive pesky rockets at all.

    1. ChrisC Silver badge

      Re: balloons floating at altitudes of up to 300 meters

      Why bother? Because as the article notes:

      "having already tested...at altitudes of up to 300 meters, and plans for higher altitude tests."

      i.e. 300m isn't the intended operational altitude, it's just what they've tested at so far - presumably as a basic proof of concept for things like mounting all the gubbins to the balloon, and checking the power transfer between balloon and ground station, without the need to also be testing the station keeping ability of the balloon - 300m is low enough to make tethering it to the ground quite feasible, whereas once you get up to the sorts of altitudes where the power generation capability would make sense, you're going to need active systems on the balloon itself to maintain position with the ground station. Also, if something goes awry during these early shakedown tests and you need to get the balloon back onto terra firma to do some tweaks, your turnaround time from 300m is considerably less than it would be at higher altitudes.

      Also consider that, whilst China itself has terrain that's comfortably in excess of 300m ASL, you have to consider where such a balloon based system might end up being deployed, and whether such locations have terrain that would facilitate a purely ground based system which could outperform even a relatively low-altitude ground+aerial system.

      1. adam 40 Silver badge

        "gubbins"

        gets you an upvote.

        1. that one in the corner Silver badge

          Re: "gubbins"

          And you get an upvote to counter the peculiar anti-gubbins sentiment.

          1. ChrisC Silver badge

            Re: "gubbins"

            Likewise...

  15. Ken G Silver badge
    Trollface

    "That’s no moon…it’s a space station."

    "It’s too big to be a space station."

    "I think it is time we demonstrate the full power of this station."

    "I have a very bad feeling about this."

  16. Eric Olson

    No mention of SimCity?

    There was nothing more fun than a disaster where the SBSP would miss the receiver and travel as a beam of destruction across your city.

    1. Ribfeast

      Re: No mention of SimCity?

      Glad I wasn't the only one who had that thought :)

  17. MonkeyNuts.Com

    It's not exactly Alderaan, but it's a start.

    I laughed out loud in my meeting when reading that. Now Vader’s force choking me, but that’s better than me presenting my gnatt chart on Death Star 3’s test and validation phase.

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: It's not exactly Alderaan, but it's a start.

      Gnatt charts - pesky things that just continually nibble away at you and cause a lot of hand waving.

  18. fabsurplus.com

    Here's an idea:

    1. Fly to handily located asteroid made out of gold.platinum etc. - Like that one NASA is going to.

    2. Move it back to earth geostationary orbit (Carefully). This might take a while. You could move it with a solar sail or ion drive or similar i suppose.

    3. Sell some gold/ platinum.

    4. Build your solar array on the asteroid and beam the power back to earth.

    5. Watch your $$$ accumulating.

    Over to elon now...

  19. itzman

    Of course...

    ...the cost and ecological footprint would only be 100 times greater than a nuclear plant or ten times greater than a windfarm, but hey, money grows on magic trees.

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: Of course...

      Got anything to back up that statement?

      Might be correct, might be complete drivel - with the information you've provided so far..

  20. imanidiot Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Sure, pump hundreds of thousands of watts of extra power into an already heating atmosphere. What could go wrong...

    Could we maybe NOT try to destroy the climate?

    1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      173,000 terawatts. That's the solar irradiance already. Climate change is about altering the balance between inflow and outflow, not about total energy in.

      A few hundred kilowatts extra isn't even a rounding error.

      1. imanidiot Silver badge

        A lot of that solar radiation is of a form that either makes it into our atmosphere and all the way to the ground, before a lot of it gets either absorbed (and radiated away again into space) or reflected back into space. Those "few hundred kilowatts" are per sattelite. If we're going to be doing this at any scale we're talking atleast hundreds of Megawatts of power in a form that gets readily absorbed by atmospheric moisture. It's perfect for directly heating our atmosphere.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Beyond that, models of microwaves designed for SBSP use have a maximum power density of approximately 250 watts per square meter at the center of the beam, while a person standing near Earth's equator at high noon would be blasted with four times that. "

    ... so why not insteaf place the receivers at the equator, and get 4X the energy without even needing to launch satellites!

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      ... so why not insteaf place the receivers at the equator, and get 4X the energy without even needing to launch satellites!

      I have a better idea. Orbit a few turns of copper wire around the Earth. Build a conductive track around the equator. Lower cable from orbital coil so it brushes the track. Now we're motoring! Not in the Canadian(?) song sense, but I love the smell of ozone in the morning.

  22. Strahd Ivarius Silver badge
    Devil

    To get real funding...

    ... you need to upgrade the power output to "Death Ray" levels, so the military will be interested...

  23. diver_dave

    Some details already examined

    Check Orbital Decay and Lunar Descent by Allan Steele.

    He's thought about most of the issues already.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Orbital_Decay.html?id=HUJZAAAAYAAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

  24. midgepad

    After we ban crypto mining in the Earth's atmosphere ...

    ... a obvious use for large amounts of power in orbit, which needn't be GEO, arises.

    Moves power generation and heat dissipation off Earth, apparently a market exists to fund the lift.

  25. Daedalus

    Never tell me the odds

    "It would be visible in the sky like a small moon – too big to be a space station."

    Since the satellite would have to stay over one area on the ground, it would be in geosynchronous orbit at 35,786 km. At 1 km across, it wouldn't look particularly big.

    1. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: Never tell me the odds

      At that distance it would be 0.1 arc-seconds across. Much smaller than Pluto, although presumably brighter unless it does a better than expected job of absorbing photons.

  26. osxtra

    Ouch

    Sayeth the article: "The SBSP microwave receiver would allow light and rainwater to pass through."

    What about birds? Or airplanes?

    Microwave radiation is probably not the best medium for transmission of electricity. Wonder if Tesla considered it when performing his experiments?

    1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: Ouch

      Well, if the wavelength is in the tens of centimetres, then small birds are going to be fine getting through the mesh. I think various aviation authorities might like a word with you if you try to fly a plane at, or just above, ground level.

      Because that quote is referring to the antenna.

      As has been amply stated, the increase in incident radiation on anything flying through the beam itself would be about 25% of sunlight. Unless those birds and planes are vampires, they'll not be bursting into flames when exposed to the sun.

  27. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
    Terminator

    We don't need Bruce Willis to protect us...

    ...but we may need Donovan and Powell to protect us from the robots "manning" the stations from going rogue.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sums seem odd

    OK. If I accept that a 2GW system needs a satellite 1km across, let's start there.

    A 1km disk is ~ a bit under 800,000 sq m

    "receiver on the ground may have to be ten times that size."

    Well, 8,000,000 sq m is 8 sq km. Quite a bit less than the 2GW Pavagada solar park in India, which occupies approximately 53 square kilometers. So what's the issue? Or am I being thicker than normal?

    2GW spread over 8,000,000 sqm is about the magical 250m per sqm.

  29. SBU
    FAIL

    Daft idea

    If you collect energy from the sun in space and beam that down to the Earth, you are literally making the global warming problem worse by increasing the energy falling on the planet.

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