Your next PC should be a desktop – maybe even this Chinese mini machine

I was recently given a desktop computer, and the modest machine is the most fun I've had during my year of Desktop Tourism – the project that's seen me trial all kinds of weird and normal client devices each month since March 2022. The machine is a Maxtang NX6412 – a Chinese brand – powered by a humble quad-core 10nm Intel …

[ruskie]

Been using a NUC both at home and at work as my base desktop to do browsing etc... - the work one even drives a VM I might need from time to time. Both are AMD Ryzen 5 devices with plenty of RAM. So yeah these devices are great if you think about what you need from them.

Would I game on one? No not likely - but I do have a gaming desktop for that and a laptop to travel.

This is simply my turn it on, have atm 3 screens connected to it and do various stuff from browsing, chatting, watching, etc... on it.

[CheesyTheClown]

One step further

I'm using some relatively older NUCs for most things, but I came to the realization that it's a heck of a lot cheaper to pay for a game streaming service then to pay the electricity on my normal desktop which is a pretty decently specced gaming system.

We also have an XBox Series X in the house, no screen attached, we just connect remotely.

I don't think I'll ever pry the gaming rigs away from my kids, but I'm pretty sure they'll be fighting over my video card soon when I switch completely to streaming gaming.

[fb2k]

the latest i3 NUC costs $350, a Celeron/Pentium NUC around $190 ....why even bother with a no-name Chinese Celeron board for $300?

[Martin Summers]

Agreed. As soon as I read the cost, saw the word celeron and saw how much had to be spent on extras, I just thought this setup was complete madness. As for docks being in the same price range, I think not...

[Phones Sheridan]

I think the author has made a mistake in his costings. I can't find any J6412 machines on the UK market yet, but the processor does have a PassMark score of 3898.

If I look on the UK market for the nearest Celeron Nuc, from Scan I find

Celeron N5105 Nuc £159.98 - PassMark 4073

The cheapest i3 Scan sell is

Intel i3-1115G4 Nuc £308.00 - PassMark 6235

So the celeron is 60% of the performance for half the price.

I would expect the J6412 to be the same as or less than price of the N5105 machine, hence I think he has made a mistake.

[Gordon861]

AliEpress - Maxtang Intel Elkhart Lake J6412, free delivery to UK

- (4GB RAM, 128GB SSD - ￡260.20)

- (8GB RAM, 256GB SSD - ￡305.07)

- (16GB RAM 512GB SSD - ￡349.94)

They don't have the barebones price on the page but do refer to it being available.

[diodesign]

'made a mistake'

Do you mean our Simon or the person who started this thread?

I checked with Si and he says he saw the basic Maxtang box priced around 300 USD.

C.

[Phones Sheridan]

Re: 'made a mistake'

I did mean Simon, but if it really is double the retail value of every other celeron, I agree with the chap who started the thread. It’s a tad overpriced.

[Dave559]

Re: 'made a mistake'

Yeah, unless you really need that second network port, this seems rather expensive for what you get. You can get something with similar spec (and with RAM and SSD included) from Amazon for around £200 (just an example, there are various other similar models).

I've got one of these (or possibly a predecessor model) and they make a great Linux home server.

[david 12]

I need two independent network ports -- they run on independent networks. Rare but not unknown on desktops (and if not, it uses up one slot for a network card). If this has that, rather than just an internal switch, or the half-assed second-network-on-USB, it's worth the cost.

[Anonymous Coward]

Minisforum isn't bad if you want a little more oomph

I have the HM-90, for the same reason, needed dual Ethernet ports. Please so far, and the same pattern is available in both intel and amd options.

600$ish

Easy teardown, you just pull the bottom plate off. I upgraded the ram, and the provided nvme drive hadn 11 on it so I slotted in another full size SATA ssd for a dual boot, and room for a second SATA drive in the bracket. (though you will have to carefully install the cable for the extra drive. Don't lose the bits.)

I had a great little Zotac before but the prices were getting brutal, north of 700$ and their hardware support is pretty much "get a new one" so I started looking at other options. The Minisfoum box is thicker than may last couple zotacs, but still small enough to hang off a monitor, and it isn't tipping the screen back either. Ymmv.

[diodesign]

Why bother? Well....

FWIW, this is Desktop Tourism, not a review or product recommendation. It's a series where we take odd, non-mainstream stuff, and see if we can work on it for a month. It appeals to those of us who like experimenting with kit from time to time, rather than always using the basic obvious solution.

We've done things like a Raspberry Pi laptop in the past and later this year, we'll write up an exotic RISC-V device that's fun and a PITA. So, yeah, think of this as a series of stranger things we've used for work just out of curiosity rather than a purchase recommendation.

I'll make that a bit clearer in the blurb box and make a note of the mainstream Intel Core i3 NUCs and what not in the piece.

Also: if you've found a Maxtang box cheaper or more expensive, then, good on ya. When Simon (who's based in Australia) looked around for pricing, 300 USD was the figure he generally found for the device.

C.

[Downeaster]

Get a Used Desktop

Another alternative is a used desktop. Buy one that is 3 to 7 years old, put in an SSD, and max out the RAM. Should be a good desktop for home and fairly fast. Get either an i3 or i5. You might even be able to run Windows 11 on it!

[Amentheist]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Did that to my mam's 11 y/o laptop and it's performance is perfectly acceptable, especially when one looks at the price for new hardware.

[DS999]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Did the same to my mom's PC a few Christmases ago and it is even older - a Pentium 4! She was very happy with the speed boost from switching to a 256 GB SSD and upgrading the RAM from 4GB to 10 GB which in total cost about $100. I think the drive it came with had probably just become too fragmented, but more RAM didn't hurt either.

Might be forced to replace that thing when Microsoft well and truly cuts off Windows 10 from security fixes, hopefully that 2025 date gets pushed back.

[MrDamage]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Use Rufus (3.20p or newer) to create your Win11 boot USB. It will give you the option to remove the hardware requirements for the Win11 build.

[DS999]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Did not know about that, thanks for the tip! Hopefully Microsoft won't defeat it with updates that break PCs that don't have TPM 2.0 so this will remain an option in a few years when the Windows 11 deadline is looming!

[Cederic]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

That's my second PC. My first PC is only a year old.

The desktop under my TV is however one of these really tiny devices, and runs silently, and does what I need for streaming.

It's also under a year old, so I don't have the worries about component failure or incompatibility with OS/software updates that would come with buying a 7 year old desktop.

[Antron Argaiv]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Our company used to (until we were bought by a multinational) raffle off the old (defined as "Dell doesn't supply parts for them) machines every year. My brother is still running one and I am using some of the monitors on my WFH machine.

My current source of upgrade fodder is Goodwill and eBay. I pick up older machines and add whatever memory and flash drive I need, then run Linux Mint on them. Many of these appear to be ex-business use and have very little physical wear.

[Kubla Cant]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Yes.

At the start of lockdown I was faced with an urgent requirement for a work laptop running Windows. I bought a reconditioned Lenovo from Amazon for about £120. Arrived next day, big, ugly and scruffy, complete with SSD, USB WiFi dongle, numerous USB and video ports, and Windows 10 Pro. Still giving excellent service.

[J. Cook]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Plus many on the 'used/refurbished' machines that were leased business machines; Of the two laptops I have that are not work owned, one was my previous work laptop that they just outright gave me, and the second was a Thinkpad T410 from a refurbisher that also leases machines to small businesses. the second one got an SSD swapped into it along with more memory, and I acquired a dock for it as well. (I have docks for all the laptops in the house, come to think of it.)

Not the latest and greatest, and I can't run Crysis on any of them except the big desktop rig I built back in 2017, but they are competent at what I use them for.

[43300]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

I've sitll got quite a few six and seven year old Dell Optiplexes at work - they all had 8GB to begin with which is fine, and they've now all got SSDs in them. Still fine for basic office tasks.

Running W10 - not intending to move to W11 in the near future, and running it on non-supported hardware is risky (e.g. the recent feature update won't install if the hardware doesn't comply, so you are looking at a full reinstall - can't say whether this would work as I've not tested it).

[DoctorPaul]

Re: Get a Used Desktop

Absolutely this.

I used to put together my own systems (anyone remember the Shuttle XPC?) but for the last decade or more I've just headed to eBay and picked up a refurbished business PC for not very much, then thrown in what's needed.

Main machine is an HP Z230 with 32gig of RAM, SSD, couple of HDDs and a pair of GT710 graphics cards. They both support 4 HDMI outputs so I've been able to go the "full Terry Pratchett" with six 24" monitors - Windows 7 has no problem seeing all six, but last time I tried Mint only seemed to see one of the cards.

[aidanstevens]

Glaring omission

It's fanless!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Glaring omission

I think that author is a fan, though.

Er, wait ..

:)

[Paul Crawford]

My main reasons for a traditional desktop at home has been space for multiple HDD/SSD for lots of disk space in RAID form (plus decent RAM/CPU performance).

This sort of device is much neater, but never going to help with that. I got something similar a year back as a possible low power Linux server (step up from the unavailable Raspberry PI) but its major downfall was the BIOS would not support powering up after AC power fail so for remote/automatic use a bit of a waste.

For home and low power I probably would go for laptop with a decent monitor. Main reason is the built-in UPS of the laptop battery along with the ability to disconnect and take it with me. Having said that I am a cheap skate when it comes to laptops as they have always been my second choice machine used for travel and so the risk of loss/damage/theft meant I try to keep cost below £400.

[Julian 8]

I tend to buy quality branded business refurb laptops which are normally well under that price, especially if you don't go for the current or previous model, but the one before.

Not the fastest, but as I don't play games, the screens, keyboards, trackpad, trackpoints are all that matters and generally last a lifetime.

[Neil Barnes]

My strategy too; I've done it for years. This 2018 Latitude has no issue with the CAD and coding workloads I do though it could be a bit quicker coding video. Office stuff and browsing and non-issues. And - critical for me - it's still possible to put Linux on it.

As with anything these days - lots of RAM is essential. I have this one with 16GB but there are still a significant number of laptops available new with only 4GB...

[43300]

Yep - a Latitude or a Thinkpad from a refurbisher on ebay with a good feedback score is a pretty safe bet - then upgrade the RAM / SSD if you want to do that (check the specs before buying as increasing numbers have soldered RAM!).

[John Brown (no body)]

Stick with the enterprise range. It's still rare to find one with no RAM expansion option. Some of the lower end ones come with 8GB RAM soldered on but still have a SODIMM socket. Consumer grade ranges may have no spare SODIMM socket though.

[43300]

I agree it was rare, but not so with recent models - the latest Latitude 7xxx range models mostly or all have soldered RAM, and it's creeping into the 5xxx range too (the 5320 and 5330 have soldered RAM - larger models don't. Yet.)

[John Brown (no body)]

Ah, ok. It's primarily HP and Lenovo I deal with, and the odd ASUS now and then. I rarely see Dell kit :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

My strategy is when my normal desktop PC (high-ish spec, used for video editing and the like) gets a bit long in the tooth and needs replacement, then it gets repurposed as the living room PC connected to the TV. In the last iteration, replacement was because of a terminally-borked HD with Windows on it, so repurposing invoked a Linux install as well.

As well as satisfying all my streaming needs, it also has DVD drive, so it means I don't need any other boxen under the TV.

[captain veg]

Re: space for multiple HDD/SSD

Did you consider an ASRock DeskMini X300? It has two M2 sockets and two SATA 2.5" bays, all in a small-ish form factor.

-A.

[DropBear]

I currently use a second hand Thinkcentre M90 ultra-small form factor as my media server. By "NUC standards" it doesn't even qualify, but it DOES have room for a full-sized 3.5" many-tera HDD, and by desktop standards it's astonishingly small (and quiet). It even accommodates my PCI (sic) TV grabber card, which is a major plus for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Could be less than £200....

Link: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Braswell-Celeron-Quad-Core-Fanless/dp/B07KWT9V18?th=1

Link: https://www.currys.co.uk/products/philips-222v8la-full-hd-22-lcd-monitor-black-10219632.html

Link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265311226555?hash=item3dc5c80abb:g:RwgAAOSwg8lhvCiM

Actually only £195 for the Mini-PC, £99 for a 22 inch monitor and £16.50 for a wireless keyboard and mouse....

.....so £310 if you have to get started on a Mini-PC with all new components.....but much less if you have old stuff lying around.

Mine is running 64-bit Linux, XFCE.....and handles Zoom, C compiles, sssh and sftp sessions....all like a champ.

Recommended!!!

[FatGerman]

Got myself a second hand Dell Optiplex 3050 off ebay for 150 quid. Far more capable and better built than this no name box, and does hardware accelerated video transcoding, including x265. With Kubuntu installed it has taken over from my ageing (but much more powerful) iMac as the machine I turn to when I want to get stuff done.

[Wanting more]

what's the power draw?

An increasingly important factor is the power it's using. 50 to 60W?

[Evil Auditor]

DisplayPort in 2003?

HDMI to DisplayPort cable (which I have no recollection of acquiring) that snakes a short distance from the PC's second HDMI port to drive an ancient Dell 13" LCD monitor (that I do recall acquiring in 2002 or 2003)

DisplayPort's not a typo on the front page, but some sort of typo nevertheless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

DP has been replacing HDMI for years. Supposedly we're going to see USB Type-C replace that... supposedly.

[jollyboyspecial]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

Other way around. Plenty of devices used to have display port, but it's mostly been replaced with HDMI ports on more modern devices. We used to have quite a lot of requests for DP to HDMI adaptors. Particularly for people needing to connect their laptops to our monitors - we have monitors with a mixture of VGA, HDMI and DVI but not a one with DP. These days we get virtually no requests and this we have a drawer full of DP-HDMI adaptors.

[J. Cook]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

Yep.

I have a kit of adapter dongles to connect various iterations of monitor output to various iterations of monitor input, with the sole exception of analog input to HDMI output- that particular switchbox needs a new power button soldered onto it. :(

[43300]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

It's not consistent - annoyingly, Dell still supply all of their business range monitors with DP cables but not HDMI, If they are for use with desktops or Dell docks we tend to just use the supplied DP cables, but also buy a stock of HDMI for connecting direct to laptops as those don't have Dsplayport.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

"Other way around."

It _WAS_ the other way around. HDMI can first, then DP to replace HDMI. Then HDMI upped their spec and started to replace DP but, DP upped their spec and seemingly HDMI won't or even can't keep up at this point. It's been this way for about 4 years (maybe 5). The only places where HDMI is hanging on is lower powered devices... laptops, tvs, phones, etc. To be fair, that is most devices :-/

The latest generations of desktop GPU's show this. Below is the default outputs for the 4090 but, the 1080 was the same too (but the 1080 also had a DVI-D)

1 - Up to 4k 12-bit HDR at 240Hz with DP 1.4a + DSC. Up to 8k 12-bit HDR at 60Hz with DP 1.4a + DSC or HDMI 2.1 + DSC. With dual DP 1.4a + DSC, up to 8K HDR at 120Hz

2 - Supports 4K 120Hz HDR, 8K 60Hz HDR and Variable Refresh Rate as specified in HDMI 2.1a

One weaker HDMI port, where until the mid-2010's HDMI was the strongest port. As mentioned, almost all OEM's use DP or min-DP and all 8k monitors are either DP or Type-C.

[Evil Auditor]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

Jep, but not in 2003 - while HDMI was around but not very common (DVI was, though), DP still took a few year before seeing daylight.

[Jason Bloomberg]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

Did the author mean "DisplayLink"?

[Fred Goldstein]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

I'm pretty sure he meant DVI. I have a 2002-ish Dell monitor that worked great on my 2013-ish machine, with a DVI to HDMI adapter. But when I got a shiny new Windows 10 machine -- a lovely Lenovo SFF box -- it would not work reliably with the adapter, so I had to get a modern monitor. Which is much nicer anyway, and $150 buys a lot more monitor now than $300 did 20 years ago.

[JimboSmith]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

A family member offloaded a very nice Apple Monitor on me a few years ago. I think it was this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Thunderbolt_Display beast. This used Thunderbolt which meant I had no kit that worked with it. Even worse was the fact that the display cable was hardwired in to the thing. My PC had Displayport but not Thunderbolt so I tried adaptors, funky cables etc all to no avail. I asked in the local Apple store where most of the staff told me Apple didn’t do monitors. Pictures were proffered and looked at, more senior colleagues were called and so on. After all that they were still next to useless as they didn’t know how to connect it to anything. I eventually realised whilst sorting a problem on my Mum’s MacBook that it should work on that. It did and she is still using it to this day quite happily.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

"I asked in the local Apple store where most of the staff told me Apple didn’t do monitors. Pictures were proffered and looked at, more senior colleagues were called and so on. After all that they were still next to useless as they didn’t know how to connect it to anything."

And that was, I assume, the Apple Genius Bar? :-)

[JimboSmith]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

We ended up at the Genius Bar after speaking to other staff first. Whereupon the first ‘genius’ I spoke to said they didn’t make monitors. Boy was he surprised when I showed him a picture.

[Kristian Walsh]

Re: DisplayPort in 2003?

I'd love to see someone bring in something really oddball, like a Pippin...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not USB-C PD Powered?

Then not interested.

I went with the GPD MicroPC. Which also has the advantage of a tiny screen & "keyboard" that can be used, at a push, when mobile.

No need to bring an additional laptop brick to power it. Just my standard GaN 60W supply that powers everything in my bag.

[TonyJ]

For about 10 years or so now...

...I have sweated my hardware for as long as possible. I tend to buy from a factory outlet and my last machine, a Dell gaming laptop (but not one of their rather garish Alienware jobs) cost around 1/3 of what it would have brand new - indeed at the time it was available from their regular store. And yet when it arrived, other than the box being generic and not having the usual array of paperwork and cardboard it looked and felt brand new. And by shear good luck I bought it in Feb 2020 just before prices and demand went crazy.

In the past and with family/friends, my usual refrain has been to swap the spinning rust with an SSD and possibly a bit more RAM and the response is always wow - better than ever. That usually gets a few more years out of a machine by which time I will have something a bit newer and faster to throw their way if needed.

And in terms of my working patterns - I found an office in the garden is the best way to separate work and life. Whether a laptop or desktop, just train yourself to leave it in their and at the end of a working day, lock the door and walk away as you would with any other job. Mind you, I also refuse to do extra hours like I used to unless they're either a) planned, or b) genuinely an urgent requirement.

I moved home just under a year ago and have only just got around to starting to lay a base for a new office but even in the spare room I try to be as disciplined as possible and clock off on time and then leave work at work. The other thing that helps - I don't have work email on my mobile phone. If it's *that* urgent to get a hold of me, call me. Otherwise it can clearly wait.

[42656e4d203239]

Re: For about 10 years or so now...

>>The other thing that helps - I don't have work email on my mobile phone

This. Never, ever have work on your personal phone (or associated with your personal phone number). There are way too many thiings that can go horribly wrong if you use your personal phone for work business.

If "the man" wants you to be contactable out of hours/on the road/WFH, "the man" should provide you with the equipment to make that possible.

[DropBear]

Re: For about 10 years or so now...

Better yet, don't agree to BE available outside business hours, no matter on who's hardware. Getting a company-supplied phone to be bothered on instead of my own would give me less than zero comfort for ruining my day in the first place.

[bregister]

the year of the linux desktop?

Linutop, http://www.linutop.com/linutopxs.en.html

Great little machine and reliable. Just for casual not CAD or the like.

Mount it on the back of your monitor to save space.

I'd be interested to see a series on low-power devices given that here on the emerald isle an electricity bill will cost more than a Rolls Royce.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: the year of the linux desktop?

For casual usage, the Raspberry Pi 400 is a great little desktop. (Provided you can get one.)

[3arn0wl]

The Pi 400

My initial thoughts about Eben Upton's occipital response to Tim Cook's 2020 clarion call to ARMs, was that it appeared to be the same bush-league practice as Professor Pillinger trying to get the Beagle landing on Mars : a pink retro "Home Computer" which would sit happily next to the Amiga, the Commadore, the Spectrum or the BBC of the 80s.

I hear rumours of a PI5 out before Christmas - more performance, more capable of operating as a desktop, more expensive - and I wonder at them getting into Chromebook territory. Still, at least the Debian derivative is a better option (in my mind) than Chrome.

But perhaps Upton's hoping that people will go for his cheaper option, rather than e-wasting their perfectly serviceable kit, as Micro$oft's pressurizing everyone to do. The obvious flaw in that plan though, is that people could just flash Linux on what they've already got, but then, perhaps not everyone is brave enough to do that.

[Col_Panek]

Re: the year of the linux desktop?

189 euro/dollars isn't such a bargain for an underpowered machine, compared to a refurbed business class SFF desktop. One of which I have.

[3arn0wl]

Refreshing

In an industry and marketplace so infused with hyperbole for so long, it's nothing short of remarkable to read a piece and comments around the ideas of sufficiency, and reusing refurbished hardware : I tip my hat to you all.

I guess though that leaves mainly X86 devices to choose from, unless you think an ARM SBC is powerful enough for your day-to-day and, as the commenter from Ireland noted, there are some power draw repercussions to that.

[PPCNI]

I've been using the following for 3 years now (with a 4k monitor and a quad hd monitor).

Kingdel® Mini Desktop Computer, 4K Home PC with Intel 7th Gen. i7 CPU, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, 4096x2304, HDMI, DP, 4*USB 3.0, Card Reader, WiFi, Metal

(Fanless) (Win10)

I got Win10 on it as there is one app I *need* for work that only works on Windows or MacOS.

Cost £420.

Value for money? Maybe? The first one I got gave blue screen of death within a few weeks and had to get it replaced. Since then there have been a few niggly issues which I'm not sure is just what you always get with Win10 or specific to this configuration. Performance is a bit disappointing for an i7 (I know it's only lower power a laptop version). Coming out of sleep mode is a bit slow. I also have to turn the monitors on in a specific order and get the timing to within about 0.25 seconds of bringing the PC out of sleep mode, otherwise Win10 will rearrange all my carefully arranged windows over to monitor 1 and/or randomly all over the feckin place.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Win10 will rearrange all my carefully arranged windows over to monitor 1 and/or randomly all over the feckin place"

I thought Windows always did that!

[Antron Argaiv]

Going from a desktop dual-monitor setup to portable has always confused my Win10 machines. They seem not to understand that they have "lost a monitor" and insist on placing at least one window on the nonexistent "extended" part of the [virtual] desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

Win 10 displays

Yep, my Lenovo laptop with Win10 has that problem with monitors on its docking station.

Boot from cold on the base, and all is well. Remove from base while running, and it is hit and miss whether it will detect and use the extra moinitors properly when re-docked, or even move apps correctly to the laptop-only screen. The 24 inch monitor often comes up as 1024x768 and it can never make ups its mind whether to extend or mirror the displays and desktop when re-docked.

Boot the laptop standalone, and drop onto the base, and there is almost no chance it will recognise the extra displays, though other features of the dock are detected.

I too have never made up my mind whether it is hardware related, driver related or just Win 10 related. I tend to suspect the latter.

[david 12]

Re: Win 10 displays

Half-and-half. Monitor hardware detection depends on the monitor participating in the conversation. And the docking station as middle-man.

Even when your OS is correctly searching devices as a background task, it depends on notification from the M/B/Graphics card, which depends on notification from the monitor, which depends on the monitor realizing that it's supposed to be re-initialising. There is a lot to go wrong there, and, from testing multiple odd configurations even from a normal desktop and graphics card, without the docking station, it often does go wrong.

[Calum Morrison]

It's maybe a bit of an esoteric issue, but Outlook annoys the hell out of me - in many more ways to be fair - in the way it absolutely will not remember window size or position, particularly wrt open emails as opposed to the main application itself. I think it was a review on here that found me the solution - FancyZones via MS PowerToys on Win 10. You basically draw out a selection of zones on your desktop then, using shift, move windows into those zones and they snap in and stay there. Outlook opens on he left two thirds of my main monitor, emails in the half, overlapping the main window but always the same damn size. Revelation!

You may be able to use it to solve some of your issues with multiple monitors - it's free so you may as well try...

[PPCNI]

Thanks for he info everyone.

I did mess around with powertoys for hours and hours, but never managed to get round the problem completely. Then I decided life was too short and just ignored it... :-)

[Boothy]

Quote: "...otherwise Win10 will rearrange all my carefully arranged windows over to monitor 1 and/or randomly all over the feckin place."

Get a copy of IconShepherd, (other tools are likely available). I've been using it for a few years now. (It's commercial, but free for a single personal computer).

It basically saves and restore icon layouts.

One warning, it does have an auto save mode, which is meant to save whenever it detects an icon is manually moved/added etc. But I disabled it, as a couple of times Windows decided to reset my icons to the default left side of the screen, and when I went to restore all the auto saves (it only keeps so many) were from that boot up with all the icons in the wrong place! It was as if the system somehow thought there were lots of changes happening, so auto saved them all, overwriting my 'good' layout. So I just manually save these days.

[Pirate Dave]

I've been using a tool called DesktopOK to keep my icons in place for a few years now. Windows 10 seems to love shoving them all on a single screen when waking up. As far as I know (or at least how I use it), DesktopOK only saves and restores when I tell it to and puts a little icon in the systray for quick access.

It seems like DesktopOK can also be used to tweak a bunch of desktop/aero settings as well - I think that's why I originally got it. I can't remember what that was though, probably some idiotic behavior in Win10. But the icon save/restore function is why I've kept it.

It's not a pretty program - the UI looks like it came straight out of the VB6 Programmer's Guide. But it works really well.

[DoctorPaul]

Upvote for Desktop ok, been using it for more years than I care to remember, in my case on Win 7.

[xyz123]

For some reason I don't want a PC thats been built under the direct gaze of the chinese government, down to putting physical firmware chips onto the board that contain malware and spyware so the machine is under CCP control 24/7 with no way to undo it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Evidence? ....Or Just Paranoia?

See title.

[PhilipN]

Do you happen to have an iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

re: Do you happen to have an iPhone?

or any of the other myriad devices that are made in the PRC.

If you suspect it of spying (As opposed to all the spying that MS does) then having a firewall and looking at the logs may well allow you to decide one way or another about that.

Personally, I find that the likes of Google, MS and Amazon are far more intrusive than the PRC. Besides, unless you work for Uncle Sam those companies are far more dangerous to us mere plebs than the PRC.

[heyrick]

I get that the West talks about not trusting China, to the point of getting mobile operators to tear out perfectly functional equipment "because China", but I'd like to pose a serious question:

What the hell makes you think that hardware from the United States is somehow more trustworthy?

If nothing else, the endless shadowy tracking and profiling by American corps ought to suggest that they have as much to gain as China, and therefore just as much incentive. And, just to flog a dead donkey, don't forget the hidden stuff in UEFI and that Minix stuff buried deep in Intel's chips.

So, you were saying?

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

"What the hell makes you think that hardware from the United States is somehow more trustworthy?"

It's the difference between somewhere companies have no actual autonomy, because it's a totalitarian state, and somewhere the state might be able to put pressure on companies, but the companies can still refuse.

Plus, we think the US is less likely to be harming UK interests than China.

[tekHedd]

Autonomy

"...the companies can still refuse."

I'm not sure we are talking about the same USA. You mean the one with the NSA? You know, with "wiretap + gag order, national security, it's literally treason if you talk about it"? That USA?

Every government has their fingers in the spy-on-everyone-pie, limited only by what they think they can get away with. The only difference is that the Chinese government isn't even pretending to have limits, and can get away with murder.

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Autonomy

"The only difference is that the Chinese government isn't even pretending to have limits, and can get away with murder."

Yes, you're vehemently agreeing with me. If I were the Chinese govt, I wouldn't let US telecoms equipment be installed in vital places. (I think in fact that's the case in reality too.)

[Ideasource]

Re: Autonomy

As far as I can tell the US operates one way but tells its citizens another story.

China seems to operate similarly but without denial.

It seems to be a choice between moral imperative to to smoke screen, vs displaying the brutality necessary to maintain a large nation-state directly..

Wipe all the distracting sentiment off the table, and they appear to be two peas in a pod.

Both will do anything to maintain their institutions.

With one key difference

The US likes to abstract to distract and operate in the shadows.

China's a little more direct with its intentions.

With morality being an offshoot of cultural artifacting,

And governments interfering with moral evolution,

Then cross culture morality does not exist.

At that point it's just preference.

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Autonomy

Ooh, it's a lesser-spotted Beijing Bot.

[Ideasource]

Re: Autonomy

That's a new one to me.

Is Beijing Bot bought a derogatory slur slur for anyone who hasn't joined the "Hate China" club?

Or did you literally mean a bot originating in Beijing?

I applaud the comedic value of your delivery though.

Good one!

I give loyalty to no country. None seem want to reciprocate in loyalty. just to use me and anyone else that it can get control of.

They all seem to be built by other people to serve mentalities and people who are very different than me.

Just campaign tools of organization that exist only to perpetuate their own self-importance whether it's good for the people who live there or not.

I'd like to reference the concept of emotional bias regarding limitations in observation.

With that in mind, It's a lot easier to understand world Dynamics when you don't worship a particular territory and its values as if those conceptual tools were a god.

[BPontius]

I agree with you, U.S hardware and software is just as riddled with backdoors, remote access/control and problems. Still waiting to see evidence of Russian made Kaspersky software spying on users, British Intelligence, E.U, Germany, France and Belgium investigated and couldn't find any spying. With the National Security Letters companies can be forced to place backdoors and spyware into hardware and software, leaving the company unable to say or do anything about it. World wide it is just one big spying and data collecting system.

"Welcome to the jungle baby!" -Guns n Roses

[Sceptic Tank]

What is it that you do that the CCP would be interested in monitoring 24/7?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it that you do that the CCP would be interested in monitoring 24/7?

And if there was such a thing, would it be a good idea to announce it here?

In any case, a simple "I live in China" might suffice, or so I hear...

[Phones Sheridan]

Aye aye Jimlad!

"and a gray market Windows license, for under $80."

Having been told during a MS license audit that there is no gray market sourcing for windows licenses, you've just admitted to commercial software piracy!

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: a gray market Windows license

What better reason to ditch Windows?

[fb2k]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

bullsh!t, pre-owned licenses are perfectly legal (and dirt cheap)

https://www.licencedeals.com/pages/legality-of-certified-pre-owned-software

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

They are indeed completely lawful, but I'm not sure linking to a seller of such licenses makes the point particularly well :)

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

"Having been told during a MS license audit that there is no gray market sourcing for windows licenses, you've just admitted to commercial software piracy!"

No, they were telling you there is no grey market because all the sales are legal.

[jollyboyspecial]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

Microsoft are dead against licence resales. However the EU ruled that they are legal. With the UK no longer v being part of the EU I don't think the legal position has been tested in the UK at least.

However these days it seems that installing without a licence continues to work forever

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

While we can never be absolutely 100% sure without a test case, we can be as close to 100% as possible without one that resales are completely lawful. There was never any doubt raised about it as a matter of English law - it was the EU where the test case was needed.

[Phones Sheridan]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

Funny thing is, I never mentioned second had sales but in true commentard fashion, tangents have branched off.

I mentioned gray (grey) markets because the article author did. Both the EU, and UK courts have had test cases regarding gray product, and both cases found that the trademark owner did indeed have the rights to stop gray marketing. With criminal sanctions at their disposal if legal action is followed all the way to it's conclusion. The laymans explanation is that because a trademark owner makes a product available in the EU/UK, does not mean a commercial retailer in the EU/UK can source genuine product, from other cheaper regions of the world and sell it. Try selling Levi Jeans, Chanel No 5 and Manchester United shirts that you've imported from Zanzibar from your stall on Camden Market without going bankrupt from legal action and ending up in prison if you keep doing it.

https://lawdit.co.uk/readingroom/the-aftermath-of-silhouette

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2002/aug/01/clothes.marketingandpr

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

Grey market/secondhand are the same thing.

[Ideasource]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

It is also quite possible that you were lied to to promote Microsoft's company interests being as there was no effective deterrent for them to avoid the arrogance of that denial.

There's not a single job I have ever worked that it's not had policies regarding withholding of accuracy for the sake of profitability. These commonly implemented policies fall under many names and philosophies of justification.

If you want accuracy ask a scientist(scientist the mental discipline towards honest observation gained through pursuit of scientific knowledge , As opposed to Scientist the title) They will at least tell you what is unmeasurable, and why it is unmeasurable, and distinguish the difference between cultural artifact and fact. They will tell you what they have determined and how and by what means.

If you ask a for-profit for company you're going to get whatever FUD their lawyers have determined they can get away with. There is no underlying motive towards honest measure for the sake of information itself.

The ambiguity and looseness of American English is no accident. Microsoft is an American company abstracted for profitability across satellites and other countries. So it's influential roots are still relevant.

Compromises to accuracy for the sake of commercial profit is a foundational pillar of U.S. commercial culture dating back to it's formulative years as a nation.

Ask any history teacher that is worthy of their station, they will tell you the same.

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

"Compromises to accuracy for the sake of commercial profit is a foundational pillar of U.S. commercial culture dating back to it's formulative years as a nation."

No, as I've linked in this thread, they adopted that from English law, and the case is from 1892.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlill_v_Carbolic_Smoke_Ball_Co

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

"Having been told during a MS license audit that there is no gray market sourcing for windows licenses, you've just admitted to commercial software piracy!"

So official MS representatives are openly lying to your face now? How nice of them :-)

[mark l 2]

Re: Aye aye Jimlad!

I don't think ive ever legitimately bought a Windows license for home use. I used to just by keys for Win 7 from ebay but since Windows 10 seems to never bother if you have activated or not other than a water mark on the screen, I don't even do that anymore. Although Linux mint is my daily driver and only boot to Windows to use a couple of pieces of specific software.

[jollyboyspecial]

If you don't have the cash for a decent laptop then these devices are a good choice. But a laptop of similar performance is so much better. I have KVM (well two Ms actually) in the office and at home. So I can just move the same device between the two. Yes you could do exactly the same with a NUC, but what you can't do with a NUC is whip it out of your bag where ever you may be and get down to some work (or play). After all a NUC can be thought of as a laptop without the built in KVM. Yes it's cheaper than the equivalent laptop, but without a lot of the advantages.

Another issue I've had with NUC devices from various manufacturers is a lack of longevity. We've had a failure rate of around 40% in the last three or four years. The biggest problem being that the powers that be decided that we didn't need any form of hardware cover on something so small - really it wasn't based on cost just on "oh that's a little tiny thing". So every one that has failed has needed to be replaced with new.

[Russell Chapman Esq.]

Probably get a lot of down votes for this

I've had Linux Mint, currently have Windows 10 on my laptop. I'm system agnostic, I just want to get the job done, much of which revolves around photography. Well, I recently got the ipad mini 6 with a hub, external ssd and the latest ipencil, and I have to say it all works very well as a package, Affinity Photo software included. I'm now at the point where I can consider putting Linux on my laptop and going Microsoft free. I'm no fanboi, but in this case, Apple has vastly improved my use-case for Linux as a daily driver.

[SHLinux]

Don't forget the KVM switch

I am using a setup at home with a KVM switch so I can either connect the work laptop via a docking station, or any of my home desktops running Windows and Linux, and share stuff like keyboard, mouse, headset, printer, etc. across the lot.

[Tim 11]

Sorry - laptop all the way for me

I guess it depends on your lifestyle but the idea that I can only ever use my computer in one room in one building is too limiting for me. Assuming I need a laptop anyway just in case, why bother keeping 2 machines synced up-to-date with everything I need?

And I'm afraid to say that 2-monitor setups are consigned to history now that you can buy a 30 inch 4k monitor for a few hundred quid. if you've got one monitor that fills your field of view, a second one is actually an encumbrance.

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

I think I paid £80 for a nearly-new mini-pc with 3.7ghz i3-6100, 8gb of ram, ssd. Another 50 quid or so for a low profile graphics card. Not the most powerful machine out there, but happy running newish games at lowish settings (and most >5yo games at high settings), and absolutely fine for browsing and so-on. Prices were at the peak of lockdown, so you could probably do a bit better today.

Unless it's for gaming, video editing, or some other resource intensive activity, it's perfectly sufficient. I would have thought something like 99% of computer users would be quite happy with it, apart from the relative lack of portability. Even that isn't too bad, though - it obviously needs to be plugged into a 230v supply, but the box + monitor + peripherals are compact enough to be easily packed in a normal sized bag.

When you compare the specs of that £130 desktop to any laptop you can buy for the same money, it's a ratio higher than I've seen for at least a decade. People should think quite hard about whether they actually need a laptop.

[Roland6]

Tidy? Not quite...

>The newly tidy Vulture East Home Annex

I suggest a closer inspection of the Maxtang, it supports VESA mounting, so could be mounted on the back of that monitor, thus reducing the clutter under the monitor stand, although if you are like me a cable tidy /organiser will be necessary.

WRT port replicator - I've found the HP USB port replicators work happily across HP, Dell and Lenovo laptops, okay all are running win10 and can be had new for circa $100. Combine with a decent magnetic USB connector, the laptop can easily be connected/disconnected. However, I do note the ease of laptop removal isn't one of the authors requirements.

[MrBanana]

How much for the UPS?

As many others have pointed out, a cheap/refurb laptop will do all this and more, for less money. Come the zombie apocalypse*, with a laptop and a wifi phone hotspot I can stay connected for a few hours once the power outages start.

* [ By zombie apocalypse, I mean the new Tory party ]

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: How much for the UPS?

You're assuming the local mobile/cellular infrastructure has working battery backup......

As the only way to effect rolling blackouts is to disconnect entire neighbourhoods don't hold your breath on having mobile connectivity. And with telephone services moved away from exchange (with battery and diesel) powered POTS to VOIP and DSLAM street cabinets get ready for some spectacular snarl ups,as shown by last winters storms. Unless, of course, rolling blackouts will only be enforced on those who have been duped into having smart meters installed.

Me: I've just stocked up on candles, and a 1000 watt inverter.

[Roland6]

Re: How much for the UPS?

>Me: I've just stocked up on candles, and a 1000 watt inverter.

I assume the invertor is candle powered...

[Flicker]

Best of both worlds??

Very, very happy with my setup of a refurb Lenovo X220 laptop (c.£200 as I recall, fitted with SSD and 8GB RAM) plus a £15 Lenovo docking station and matching PSU from eBay, coupled with a good Benq 27" QHD monitor (£320 and worth every penny).

All the benefits of the built-in laptop "UPS", a decent keyboard and reasonable IPS display when I want to take it somewhere with all of the cables for monitor / LAN / keyboard / audio / webcam etc. left in situ neatly at the back of the desk.

No reason to change at the moment but if I do it will be for another ex-business refurb laptop / dock combo.

[Big_Boomer]

Home office

I work from home full time and am lucky enough to have a tiny 3rd bedroom that makes a decent home office. I have set myself up with such a good work environment that when I do go to the office it feels cramped and lo-tech with smaller desks and tiny 26" monitors <LOL>. I have a 180cm x 70cm desk that is height adjustable, two 32" curved 1920x1080 monitors, a good keyboard and mouse, and a USB switch for the keyboard, mouse, and video camera. For work I have a high-ish spec Dell laptop and a USB-C docking station (both supplied by the company) which is more than adequate for what I do. The work laptop needs to be portable for the occasional visits to the office and to customer sites so a desktop won't work for me there.

For home use I have an old-ish i7-4790 with 16GB RAM, and a GeForce GTX960 with 4GB VRAM, with a big SSD, a big HDD, and a good 5.1 speaker system. The home setup suffices for the games that I play (Fallout4, GTA5, Outer Limits, Skyrim, Half-Life, etc.) and anything else I need to do on a PC. I have yet to encounter anything that would make me want to replace it.

Both PCs use the same monitors, keyboard, mouse, and camera. All the cabling goes down the back of the desk where it is clipped to the underside of the desk with stick on cable clips. I also have an "ergonomic" office chair. It's tidy-ish but highly functional. Total cost outside of the desktop PC, laptop, and speaker system is about £1250 but given that I spend 50+ hours per week here, worth every penny and then some.

[Dave314159ggggdffsdds]

Re: Home office

"The work laptop needs to be portable for the occasional visits to the office and to customer sites so a desktop won't work for me there."

If you don't need the battery, what's the difference? It's easy enough to move a mini-pc and laptop-sized screen. V slightly more work than packing up a laptop, but not worth worrying about.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Home office

What you really need to move between home and office is a few hundred GB of data. A portable SSD might suffice, particularly if it is an SSD with USB3 connectivity and a VM image on it.

[doublelayer]

Re: Home office

One difference is that you can simply close the laptop, sending it into a sleep mode with all your stuff still in place, and take it with you wherever you're going. There are modes you can use on the desktop, but if you put it into the analogous sleep mode and pull the power, it won't return as well. Even using those modes, it won't come up as quickly. There are other advantages to having a battery, such as resistance to power failures and additional portability, which is why I generally prefer to use laptops even if I'm using them in one location most often.

[martinusher]

Been there, done that

They've been around for some years. I've seen them used in a couple of places, one being the workplace where they're the go-to machine for training, shop floor, production and sales. I noticed that my medical provider has also dumped the phonebook sized Dells for these units. They don't need to be that powerful because they're primarily network terminals. (I'd guess that the medical provider doesn't use tablets because of security issues -- logins to the PCs are credentialed using the user's ID badge and networking is wired only.)

Like many people I don't just use one system for everything. For home use a Pi4 is more than adequate for everyday mail and browsing needs.

[An_Old_Dog]

One No-Cost Way of Getting Great Experience from a Slow Laptop

Run an X-Windows server or an RDP client, as needed, on your (non-Microsoft-Windows-based) old laptop over SSH to your bad-ass desktop.

Caveats: (1) like all the cloudy stuff, it requires working Internet connectivity. (2) Your gaming experience will vary from game to game.