back to article Starlink decoded for use as GPS alternative – without Elon Musk's help

Researchers rebuffed by SpaceX have taken matters into their own hands and reverse-engineered Starlink's satellite signal for potential use as a GPS alternative.  University of Texas Austin professor Todd Humphreys and his team claim in a non-peer reviewed paper that they've managed to decode Starlink downlink signals in the …

  1. Alumoi Silver badge
    Mushroom

    30 meters?

    Close enough for a small bomb/rocket. Sold!

    1. Natalie Gritpants Jr

      Re: 30 meters?

      I think it means you can get the location of the receiver you're using, not the location of your enemies receiver.

      1. Bartholomew

        Re: 30 meters?

        step 1 decode the signals, using existing hardware and/or SDR (Software Defined Radio)

        step 2 create your own initial bulky hardware to decode the signals.

        step 3 create and sell tiny self contained modules with power and antenna inputs that output standard NMEA formatted data to a UART (serial port).

        30 meters accuracy or precision for companies with military contracts, used as either a backup subsystem or as an extra data source for a Kalman filter, would sell extremely well. Simply because it is on a totally different frequency band.

      2. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: 30 meters?

        After following the tracks for two days, we can see the Bad Guy(tm) 1107 metres away on a bearing of 137 degrees.

        Now, if only we knew where we are, we could add the numbers up...

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: 30 meters?

          After following the tracks for two days, we can see the Bad Guy(tm)

          Nah, after logging the data points for Bad Guys1-13 for 2 days, plot them on a GIS. You can then display their tracks, where they intersect, and arrange a cease & de-exist notice to that location. Probably why HQs and supply dumps have an unfortunate habit of going from hub site to bomb site.

      3. TeeCee Gold badge
        Coat

        Re: 30 meters?

        I did come up with a cunning plan to leak the tech to the Russians, but they seem perfectly capable of shooting themselves in the foot without technological assistance.

    2. Bartholomew

      Re: 30 meters?

      Also in a different frequency range (Ku band) so unaffected by strong signals broadcast to jam/fake normal GPS frequencies (L band).

  2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

    He said SpaceX could publish a clock correction for each satellite - something that is currently done for GPS - which would reduce errors to under one meter.

    That presumes that the satellites have such an accurate clock and SpaceX bothers to keep that degree of synchronisation for them.

  3. wsm
    Joke

    Finally...

    ...a semi-useful application of Starlink!

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Re: Finally...

      Aside from reading on Moonless nights, that is[1]

      [1] ok, perhaps a *bit* of hyperbole, but you wait until the entire constellation is up there!

  4. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Yes, but what type of meter?

    Voltmeter, Ammeter, Gas meter?

    1. that one in the corner Silver badge

      Meter maid? (ah, Rita, gorgeous lass)

  5. Nameless Dread

    Larry Grew

    "... traditional GPS..." !

    1. Jan 0 Silver badge

      Re: Larry Grew

      > "... traditional GPS..." !

      That's a horse drawn cart full of astronomers, human calculators, telescopes and sextants, observing moons. Is it any wonder that it took so long for Napoleon to find Moscow?

      1. that one in the corner Silver badge

        Re: Larry Grew

        Don't forget the fellas who rode on ahead and blew a warning whenever there was a speed portraitist waiting at the bottom of a hill.

  6. man_iii
    Mushroom

    muskiness

    Musk PROFITEERS 400 Million dollars for receivers in Ukraine paid by volunteers and users while he "Donated" 3000 units one time.

    He egotistically threatened to cut off Paid Subscription service and asked DoD to gift him almost 900 million fot a Paid Service!

    Billionaires and MultiNationalCompanies need to be taxed at 75% gross and anyone below 10% of what the CEO is making gets compensated to meet the company mean wage. Rest held until the company or top mgmt eventually messes up and then boom dissolve and payout all impacted.

    Everything goes public domain after 50 years. Billionaires dont get to trickledickdown or hold economy hostage.

    This is the Nukeclear option. only way to be sure.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: muskiness

      You obviously haven't been paying attention. Let me explain about this "free market" thing once more.

      Back in the Good Old Days capitalism was 'regulated', the government regulated the market for essentials like energy and communications because they were a common good. However, regulation and oversight (as you've been taught from the cradle) is really bad. The only kind of dynamic economy capable of delivering prosperity for all is a free market, and by that we mean free from all government interference. In fact the modern capitalist is quite libertarian in their desire to shrink the state to the smallest size commensurate with keeping order among the Great Unwashed.

      This why your energy bills are skyrocketing. Its not that there is any more or any less energy to sell but rather that a shortage creates a price spike in the commodity trading markets which means good times for the traders and investors. The fat that this money is coming out of your rapidly thinning budget is irrelevant because if the government was to step in and try to regulate the market then there would be a huge price crash, a run on the currency and so on. Markets don't just rule, they dominate.

      Just focusing on an individual like Musk misses the point. Anyway, if we tried that SpaceX would tie us up in the courts for years and probably jack the price of ISS access. It would also send a negative signal to other corporations with some likely fallout.

      Long story short -- this is the bed we made by electing successive governments who favored modernization and reform. We turned our backs on those stuck in the mid types who said it will all end in tears (it did before but obviously past experience is absolutely no indication of future performance because we've got computers, smartphones and other wonderful stuff). Enjoy.

      1. Ideasource

        Re: muskiness

        Then it would be prudent to do we we do with parasite infested beds.

        Quarantine, burn, and replace.

    2. Overflowing Stack

      Re: muskiness

      "Billionaires and MultiNationalCompanies need to be taxed at 75% gross" there would be no Starlink then, no SpaceX, no Tesla and probably no electric cars. They'd also be no smartphones, no Google and no Covid vaccine.

      Musk has reinvested all of his money. His wealth isn't mainly cash, it's tied to the value of Tesla and SpaceX shares, if he sold them, they'd instantly be worth less.

      1. YetAnotherLocksmith

        Re: muskiness

        Ah, you've fallen for that scam too. Don't worry, lots of people do.

        His horses, houses, cars, spaceship, etc are all on debt, or simply owned by his companies. Of course he's got complete control over them, but yes, he's left most of his $billions invested in his company(ies) - where would he even keep a pile of a $billion in sacks of notes, even if he wanted to?

        Taxing him 75% of any take-home over the first billion in any year would have almost no effect in 9 out of ten years!

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: muskiness

          "Taxing him 75% of any take-home over the first billion in any year would have almost no effect in 9 out of ten years!"

          Yeahbut, the OP was talking about taxing 75% of gross, not net. And he wanted that tax on the billionaires and the multinationals. That would bring in enormous amounts of tax the first year and then nothing in subsequent years since they'd close up shop.

          I may be wrong of course because the OP failed to mention what he meant by "gross". Gross turnover? Gross income? Gross profit? 144? Just being horrible and icky?

        2. Ideasource

          Re: muskiness

          Tax on transaction, rather then take home.

          If they spend, they pay. If they transfer they pay If they take in money they pay. Closes the loopholes that currently in play

          Tax the business activity itself.

  7. Howard Sway Silver badge

    We cannot afford any distractions

    says the man who's been embroiled in a farcical takeover of Twitter for months.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I think Starlink should have their receivers doing radio astronomy during idle time. Like that black hole that burped after eating a star, that was only detected by chance. Instead you could use tens of thousands of little dishes to listen for like, an hour at a time to lots and lots of targets.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re: during idle time

      So when no-one's using the internet?

      Remember when you could only use the internet when no-one in the house was on the phone? Like that, but with the planet.

  9. Oh Matron!

    I learnt a few weeks ago.....

    That:

    "He said SpaceX could publish a clock correction for each satellite - something that is currently done for GPS - which would reduce errors to under one meter"

    Is due to relativity. Because the satellites are moving so fast (relative to you), you need the correction to account for the differences in time between you and the satellite!

    This stuff fascinates me :-)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I learnt a few weeks ago.....

      and because they are at a different altitude to you and see in a different strength gravitation field which will also affect how their clocks run relative to yours as well. Einstein giveth and Einstein taketh away, but not necessarily in equal measure.

  10. TeeCee Gold badge
    Holmes

    Humphreys' team wasn't interested in the customer data...

    Yeah, yeah, of course none of you were actually watching the porn stream.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Love the gratuitous…

    …moralising by the journo.

    > We cannot afford any distractions

    IOW, SpaceX did not prevent the researchers from doing their research on their own dime. They just did not allocate any resources to it.

    We're not talking about sending a cease and desist or opposing the research in any way. They just decided that their contribution was going to be to stay in business.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Love the gratuitous…

      This is what a neutrally written article looks like instead:

      https://www.gpsworld.com/starlink-signals-can-be-reverse-engineered-to-work-like-gps/

  12. Tubz Silver badge

    Once Starlink GPS used for military, they become a legitimate target, thats maybe what Musk is thinking.

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