back to article China could use Digital Yuan to swerve Russia-style sanctions

UK intelligence agency GCHQ says China is "learning lessons" from the war in Ukraine and could make use of a centralized digital currency to partly get around the type of sanctions being imposed on Putin's Russia. The agency's chief, career MI5 officer Jeremy Fleming, is speaking to the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) …

  1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

    Fleming will say these countries risk "mortgaging the future" by buying in Chinese tech with "hidden costs,"

    Exactly like the UK gov did by selecting Huawei for the BT 21CN (21st Century Network) in place of Marconi?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "risk"?!?

      The whole premise of the UK government's so-called growth strategy is dependent on mortgaging the future.

      Putting people in debt is the objective. :/

      1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        MetaDataPhysical FailSafe Harbour Help ..... A Quantum Communications Leap for AI and IT

        The whole premise of the UK government's so-called growth strategy, and as would also be any other governments growth strategy for that matter, is dependent upon premium prime ministerial leadership and inspirational departmental head hunting officers and their Secret Intelligence Service servers recognising and proactively engaging and boldly inviting novel and pioneering Great Game changers to aid and abet and steer them through rapidly and suddenly emerging difficulties in vital existential markets via the secure supply of sensitive proprietary intellectual property which they do not have access to nor any possible rights over, able to enable them with attractive leading advantages in fields in which to excel will deliver guarantees of strategic success and remote virtually ACTive tactical support.

        And that in its simplest and most direct form of assistance and immaculate help does not require government itself to know of the finer and most vital of details of the sourcing of such magic sauce, it merely requires them to pay/award/reward appropriately and handsomely that which and/or those who would provide it .... if it is attractive to such magic source sorcerers to supply it of course, for some governments may not be deemed worthy of such direct heavenly support because of their decidedly and designedly obnoxious activities with evidence of a lingering desire to not fundamentally change from the courses which have them in dire straits need of that introducing itself here in these few short paragraphs.

        And whilst the likes of a Jeremy Fleming may talk a good talk ......

        From where I sit, I think we need to continue to make deep investments in the next generation of key national security technologies. For example, we know our security and prosperity will depend on mastering Quantum capabilities – systems which are exponentially more powerful than our current digital technologies that push at the edge of known physics.

        These are on the horizon and may be closer than we think. Our companies, universities and intelligence agencies cannot afford to be late to that Quantum revolution, or to be relaxed about the extent to which others – especially those perhaps in China, are watching our progress. .... https://www.gchq.gov.uk/speech/rusi-asl

        ...... it is only as pie in the sky vapourware if one cannot also walk the walk and take a leap or two or three across into the wilder sides of life in Live Operational Virtual Environments where practical delivery of viable radical solutions are possibly endless, such is the nature of ITs Virgin Fields of Discovery and Endeavour, Experimentation and Exploitation and Enjoyment.

        [NB .... This C42 Quantum Communication Control Systems …. AI@ITsWork announcement contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Actual results may differ significantly from management's expectations. These forward-looking statements involve risks and uncertainties that include, among others, risks related to potential future losses, significant amount of indebtedness, competition, commercial agreements and strategic alliances, seasonality, potential fluctuations in operating results and rate of growth, foreign exchange rates, management of potential growth, system interruption, international expansion, consumer trends, inventory, fulfilment centre optimisation, limited operating history, government regulation and taxation, fraud, and new business areas.]

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: MetaDataPhysical FailSafe Harbour Help ..... A Quantum Communications Leap for AI and IT

          Be advised that government knows very much about what you say. It is just sometimes very hard to marshall competence to the right place.

          British government knows how to meet top class people even in foreign lands with high precision. Not theory, firsthand knowledge.

          Sometimes the NATO deep state is asleep, but whenever it truly matters they seem to be almost omnipotent. Not as a brute, but maybe as a kind person cheering you up. Open your eyes.

          1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

            Re: MetaDataPhysical FailSafe Harbour Help ..... A Quantum Communications Leap for AI and IT @AC

            Oh, how nice, and that would be certainly be a great deal more comforting than everyone having to witness and experience the resultant traumas from all of the universally available abundant evidence suggesting the contrary and their much more apparent incompetence to be in the right place to do the right thing with either that and/or those in the know with that which needs to be done, AC.

            Now is neither the time nor the space for NATO deep state to be asleep. Do you know what is needed to shake them awake with eyes wide open and plans of almighty campaigns that ensure and assure and guarantee overwhelming omniscience, for that is what they would be seeking to befriend and engage with, or be waging vain battle and ignorant self-destructive war against these days, if preferring/deciding instead to travel the truly unruly brute route which delivers to them their just desserts and worthy nihilistic fate at the hands of would have been great AWEsome friends, necessarily because of perverse other party action, turned merciless heartless phantom stateless enemy.

            :-) If governments visit and read El Reg, and that surely cannot be made any simpler for them, they can easily instantly know everything about that which is said and to be said, for it be clearly enough written down for them to see in plain enriching and EMPowering text and co-opted co-operative hyperlinks.

            Is there an email address available for sleepy NATO deep state with anyone competent able to receive and answer questions on such matters with a relevant cogent reply, AC? Or is that too simple a solution for such sensitive explosive matters with too many then able to know about everything which might be in the planning for the future?

            An address, an address, my kingdom for an address ... :-)

        2. Sarah1234

          Re: MetaDataPhysical FailSafe Harbour Help ..... A Quantum Communications Leap for AI and IT

          Problem is cost wise quantum is energy hungry, compared to what the 5G tech has came up with , redirecting the noise is cheaper than the CoE techniques. Let alone the harm to the environment.

          I wish we had listened to Erdo Erikan. We have been so bliiiiind

  2. VoiceOfTruth

    GCHQ

    Taking orders from Washington every day.

    -> The spy chief will also warn how China is seeking to create "client economies and governments" by exporting its technology to countries around the world.

    When we went there, we just stole everything. Oh for the good old days, eh?

  3. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    A Leading Question ..... well, a Few of Them actually.

    Is the UK learning any new lessons? Or is it still stuck in a deep dark dank rut with politically incorrect and inept dinosaurs presenting outdated and ineffective instruction sets?

    Oh, and as for what Jeremy Fleming has to say, ...... Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he, so no surprises there.

    Strangely enough though, if what China are suspected of going to do, with it causing international concern because it delivers to them a sudden and unexpected advantage against which sanctions are rendered impotent, one would have thought that home teams would be trying them out too rather than crowing about it ..... for whenever tables are turned and positions are reversed?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well

      So far what we can see from Moscow and Beijing is savagery, incompetence, corruption and illiteracy at the top.

      They only lead in crawling into other people's minds. COMINTERN is the world leading expert in making mankind dumber and dumber. Some they have convinced to chop off healthy organs.

      Moscow threatens suicide on a scale never seen while Beijing kills some of their citizens as part of a Virus Vaccine Scam. Putin tries to pull an Erdogan and thinks all Germans are weaklings. Maybe you can relay to them this stuff does not bring them friends ?

      1. Valerian

        Re: Well

        The Comintern, as you say, a communist international, made a leading space power out of an agrarian country, with a nuclear shield and the best education and medical education in the world. This is in response to your mention of the Comintern. Putin's Russia is of course a different country. Why do you mix the Comintern with slop in your post, and put Putin's Russia on the same level? Don't you see the difference?

        1. Mockup1974 Bronze badge

          Re: Well

          >Why do you mix the Comintern with slop in your post, and put Putin's Russia on the same level?

          Isn't Putin the one who used to be a KGB officer, publicly mourns the fall of the USSR, and invades another country for "Denazification" purposes, while his soldiers have been recorded erecting Soviet flags in occupied territory?

          There's never been a hard break with the old ideology in Russia, it seems...

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Or putting it another way, "Who'd have thought?".

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. veti Silver badge

    Note about style

    I've seen half a dozen media reports about this speech now, and funny thing... all of them are couched in the future tense. Fleming "will say" stuff...

    Is it only me, or is this stupid and distracting?

    I know what happens: the text of the lecture/speech gets distributed to media ahead of the event, and since it's not embargoed, it gets published before it's actually delivered (so the audience has probably already seen the highlights by the time they hear it). And it's possible he might go off script and the quotes won't be exact. But couldn't you just say "the text of a lecture to be delivered", or "the speech handed out to media in advance"?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Fleming: Control The Fire, Reduce Technology Flow

    What we have seen in Russia boils down to this: they sold immense amounts of hydrocarbon and metals. In return, we (NATO+ANZAC+SK+JP) sold them top-class electronic components, very pure chemicals, the most advanced tool machines, powerful CAE, CAD software packages, high end oscilloscopes and lots of other leading edge technology. Their students could study our way of developing highest performance technology and science. Many if not all of this material and knowledge ended up in advanced weapons such as cruise missiles, powerful fighter jets, advanced air domination radars+SAMs, powerful submarines, hypersonic missiles and so on. The Ukraine Meat Grinder is powered by this technology. Europe must now re-arm because of this threat.

    In Taiwan, we have seen the Chicoms flexing their military muscle and basically showing they want to first erect a sea blockade and then bomb Taiwan into submission. Mrs Pelosi's visit was not the smartest thing to do, but it exposed Beijing's plans and capabilities. The same argument as with Russia applies, except that China in some ways is even more dangerous than Russia. They have a much more serious semiconductor production capability, which means they can build much larger stocks of precision long-distance weapons. Most likely, China is still not on par with us in terms of electronic warfare, but they could very well be in five years time, if we do not drastically dial down the flow of high end material, knowledge and education to them. Then we will see another hot war, another Meatgrinder.

    Even small powers such as Germany have deployed a frigate and three Jäger 90s to Japan, in an effort to deter China from starting a war in Taiwan. At the same time Germany, the US and many others are shipping advanced tool machines and all the other advanced technology and materials listed, to China. One hand tries to control the fire, while the other hand supplies another bucket of petrol.

    This is clearly insane and must be stopped. We must not deliver any more petrol for this prospective fire, free trade ideologies be damned.

    Delivery of Material, Education, Technology Services to China must be strictly controlled and strictly limited, or we will see a hot war between us and China. Let's get our priorities right.

    You met me in Training Center South, first when I was six. Several times after.

    1. VoiceOfTruth

      Re: @Fleming: Control The Fire, Reduce Technology Flow

      -> Germany

      Don't you ever bring up Germany as some kind example of what is "right". Germany on the same side as Japan. AGAIN!

      After causing 2 world wars they have no moral capital at all. And don't say they have learned and today they are good "democrats". If they are doing it again they are doing it again. Quite how Germany thinks it has any kind of morality after murdering 20 million Russians I do not know. Quite how Japan thinks it is a good country while celebrating its war criminals I do not know. But what I really do not know is how some people buy into this idea.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        You Don't Get It

        We have two (or three) power blocks looking at each other through gunsights. Ukraine already burns and kills thousands each month.

        Now the goal must be to limit the amount of fuel delivered to the fire.

        There are no easy decisions. Each course of action has disadvantages and now it is about choosing the least nasty option: stop delivery of technology to prospective enemy. Conserve the current world order, as ugly as it sometimes is.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          Re: You Don't Get It

          There are no easy decisions. Each course of action has disadvantages and now it is about choosing the least nasty option: stop delivery of technology to prospective enemy. Conserve the current world order, as ugly as it sometimes is. ... Anonymous Coward

          You don’t get it, AC, and in that titbit of observation and information lie all your problems, for those least nasty ugly options are not future acceptable.

          Radical Fundamental Change is the New More Orderly World Order of the Future with its Presents Exercising Surging and Purging 0Days.

          Who Dares Care Share Win Wins, and To Never Ever Lose is the Past and its Successes left in Progressive Futures' Wakes for Savages and Dinosaurs to Fight Over and Kill Themselves For.

          Deaf, Dumb and Blind and Stupid is as Deaf, Dumb and Blind and Stupid does, and aint that the Gospel Truth.

    2. veti Silver badge

      Re: @Fleming: Control The Fire, Reduce Technology Flow

      Then why is Russia rapidly running out of (modern) weapons?

      China is a completely different problem. They have taken a different approach from Russia, integrating themselves with the world economy rather than shutting themselves off from it, and as a result their high-tech industry and development are already world class. True that they're not up to snuff on some types of electronic warfare, but in some types of armaments they have already overtaken the USA. It's no longer a matter of copying to catch up.

      The flip side of integration into the world economy is that they're much more vulnerable to sanctions (which is what the "digital yuan" fuss is about - it's one of many necessary-but-not-sufficient pieces that would need to be in place).

      And as Ukraine is demonstrating, wars are much easier to start than to end. Putin hoped his army could quickly overrun token opposition and install a pro-Russian government, as has happened before (maybe he forgot its recent experience in Chechnya, or thought it didn't apply for some reason). Then it would become just a matter of waiting for the west to relax its sanctions out of sheer boredom, which would have happened in a few years, and in the meantime Russia could get by without that trade.

      But a long drawn out war - which is to say, any war in which both sides have a rich sponsor - is a contest of endurance. In the past, Russia has fought by simply throwing endless supplies of bodies at the enemy. (~1 million against Napoleon, 2 million in WW1, something like 10 million in WW2). Russia's history is a story of endurance, of winning by attrition. That requires an economy that can function more or less in isolation. It needs to keep on supplying food, fuel, bodies, clothing and arms at sufficient capacity, indefinitely. (It failed in 1917, with catastrophic results; in 1941-45 it was heavily supported by the Allies.)

      We'll see soon whether the Russian economy can achieve that level of independence today. (Probably not.) But China is much more reliant on foreign trade to start with. It depends heavily on imports for food and fuel (which explains why they're currently cosying up to the Russians, who, they think, can provide both of those - although I suspect Russia's sales pitch on this subject may have been predicated on its controlling Ukraine). Cutting China's links to the world economy would be like embargoing Japan in 1940 - a move calculated to bring forward a war that TPTB had decided was inevitable sooner or later, so let's get it over with.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @Fleming: Control The Fire, Reduce Technology Flow

        but in some types of armaments they have already overtaken the USA

        They said the same about Russia. Turns out....not so much.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Economy, Technology, Weapons

        China would never be in the state they currently are, without access to top class NATO+JP+SK+ANZAC ("us") technology*. Their weapons can only be built using advanced instruments, material and knowledge they bought and sometimes stole from us.

        With more and more armament, the Chinese now think they can run over their neighbours. They calculate that they can start a big war and win it. It is time to put the brakes on this development. If you have a better idea how to avoid this war, let us know.

        *not just "IT", but advanced electronic and scientific instruments, chemicals, technology services, precision tool machines,...

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: @Fleming: Control The Fire, Reduce Technology Flow

      "This is clearly insane and must be stopped. We must not deliver any more petrol for this prospective fire, free trade ideologies be damned.

      Delivery of Material, Education, Technology Services to China must be strictly controlled and strictly limited, or we will see a hot war between us and China. Let's get our priorities right."

      It's way too late for that now. China bootstrapped years ago. They play the long game. That's why they appeared to switch to a form of capitalism for a while, and in some ways, still are. But the "heavy hand of control from the top" and central planning is still and always has been, there. "Capitalist" business leaders who "go native" and step over the line very quickly get stomped on. As for education, they have world class universities. Some of the very best will still go abroad to the likes of MIT, Cambridge, Oxford, Stanford etc. Peking University is just outside the top 10 universities in the world. Most of their best students study in China. It's mainly those who didn't get into the top Chinese universities who then travel to Europe, UK, USA etc.

      They may be behind in some fields, but are ahead or on par in other fields. Anything they are behind in, they can throw money and resources at like no other country can. Trying to stop them is like Canute ordering the tide to stop coming in, ie a demonstration that it's not possible. Sanctions, at best, can only slow them down a bit.

  7. Lordrobot

    Last week the cheers this week the Tears

    The US and UK will fight until the last Ukrainian is dead or the first 100,000 Germans that freeze to death when they run out of furniture to burn this winter. Russian Winter II.

    Only Elon Musk has offered a peace plan... Joe Biden is on holiday in Deleware. Here comes #80 the old dried-out NEOCON Dem warmonger aligned with all the RIGHT wing NEOCON War Mongers. They ought to start a new political Party.... THE JOHN WAYNERS...

    If this dope Fleming can see that US UK and European sanctions aren't working then why is he advocating more of the same? Didn't Einstein have something to say about repeating stupid?

    Consider two Obvious Facts: One, Putin is not going to lose in Ukraine. The Russian John Wayers want more rockets on Kiev. Starving some Russian 5 year old is not going to stop Putin.

    Fact Two: You will never stop China or the rise of Asia. China or should I say CHINER... produces 1000 metric tons of steel a year. The pop ships out like popcorn. They use more acetylene gas in a year than the UK and US combined in 60 years. They pop rockets and satellites and drones out like popcorn. And they have taught drones new tricks in hunting like wolfpacks. Why would you ever continue to pester them over cell phone production when they are eating your British Lunches in virtually every other technology and grunt labour field imaginable?

    Not one, not one Brit, and not one Murican, other than Henry Kissinger [and he's German or something] has voiced any notion of a peace settlement and you in UK and USA are facing a recession. Germans will be facing the Russian Winter as their economy pitches into the ditch of their own making. Yup virtue signalling around the campfire with no hot dogs and no marshmallows. Virtue Signalling WARMONGERS... that's a good one.

    "Hey, Pilgrim, Your European and Japanese Great-Grandparents might disagree with you..."

    No, Mr Wayne, my great-grandparents were intelligent. Speaking of Intelligence Isn't the lardtail stable genius going to come back into power after John Wayneing the US Capital? I sure wish Trump would run for PM. Marshall the forces... WEAPONS of KYIV DESTRUCTION... The UK will come along, what is another fishhook in the British mouth at this point?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Last week the cheers this week the Tears

      Consider two Obvious Facts: One, Putin is not going to lose in Ukraine

      Only because others will whack him before it gets that far.

    2. DanceMan
      Mushroom

      Re: Last week the cheers this week the Tears

      Try learning from history. Chamberlain negotiated with Hitler. How did that work out? Putin is using the same playbook --- I want a piece of that country where they speak our language. Then he wants the reset of it.Then it's more countries.

      The daunting lesson from WWII was the total defeat necessary over Germany and Japan to reform them into the democracies they are today. Russia is a vast country. Not a simple task.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Last week the cheers this week the Tears

      The trouble with Russia is that we spent all these years treating them with respect, and we got none back. In their mind this is because they are “strong”

      The time for talking to Russia is over.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Nice Threats

      I can tell you the German engineer is still wearing triple velvet gloves. We don't need Methane that comes with threats of annihilation. And we have enough Methane, Lignite and Uranium here. We currently don't use it, because our Maoists are still in power. Can be changed in a blink of an eye.

      In other words, stop the threats if you Muscovites want to have friends. Come to the negotiation table.

      If not, you can have the German industrial might deployed against you. It would have killed you, if the Americans had not come to your help in the 1940s.

  8. IGotOut Silver badge

    Is it me...

    Or is this the most bot heavy thread to date?

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