back to article GNOME hits 43: Welcome To Guadalajara

The third release of GNOME since the big shift of GNOME 40 is coming together – but KDE isn't getting left behind. Guadalajara gnome takes a selfie We mentioned that the 25th anniversary release of GNOME was looming a few months ago and now the birthday release is out. The new version is codenamed Guadalajara and will be the …

  1. Sin2x

    Loathe for me.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Loath, because limited to Adwaita (which i SPECIFICALLY loathe) and 2D FLATTY FLATSO McFLATFAC, unless I misswed something along the line.

      Any major software package that uses gnome at ALL needs to consider GTK2 and GTK3 support rather than GTK4 so that Mate and Cinnamon users aren't left out...

      How to turn off the 'Adwaita' look in firefox:

      a) use mate and install "mate-themes" or similar, basically to get "TraditionalOk" (other desktops YMMV)

      b) from command line select TraditionalOk for GTK3

      gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences theme 'TraditionalOk'

      c) in about:config

      widget.content.gtk-theme.override = TraditionalOk

      widget.non-native.theme.enabled = false

      reload browser (or maybe just the page) and that *HIDEOUS* *ADWAITA* *SCROLLBAR* will *GO* *THE* *@#$%* *AWAY* and be replaced with a REAL one. of your choice.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Following the article's link I see Plasma 5.26 is looking rather fuggly. However Gnome still had the edge with Gtk4 making sure users can't customise the appearance to something better. And to think we used to be snide about Windows XP as Windows for Teletubbies.

    1. iron Silver badge

      Personally I always called it Fischer Price Windows.

      Thankfully I've never seen an episode of Teletubbies, most of my nephews and nieces are far too old for it and for the few in the right age group I'd left home by then.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Gnome devs became like arrogant Micros~1 "developers" when Gnome 3 was released. Linus had a nice rant about it. It was mostly capitalization and use of the F word if I remember correctly. Deservedly so.

      "We will, we will, FORCE YOU"

      (to be all 2D FLATTY FLATSO FLATASS McFLATFACE with! Adwaita!)

      this "force you" mentality DOES! NOT! BELONG! IN! OPEN! SOURCE!!!

      I thought Mate, Cinnamon, and Devuan spoke LOUD AND CLEAR on this.... (but some apparently need stronger affirmation, like maybe a clue-by-four)

  3. captain veg Silver badge

    KDE vs Gnome

    I've descended upon Mint with Cinnamon -- though an earlier experiment with MATE gave an experience much the same -- but always had a soft spot for KDE. I just don't want my work machine wasting any cycles or RAM on it.

    My experience of Gnome, 20+ years ago, was that it looked like it had been scribbled by a small child with a blunt crayon.

    I assume that it has been improved since.

    -A.

    1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: KDE vs Gnome

      From what I've seen it's got worse

      1. badflorist

        Re: KDE vs Gnome

        For KDE it's a sideways move, maybe because of the decisions that have _not_ been made regarding QT 6 licensing. Or maybe because they're afraid of another 4 -> 5 fiasco (or 3 -> 4 ... or 2 -> 3... pick one).

        For Gnome, Gnome sucks but now at least it sucks harder.

        The article states this:

        "we suspect that the flipside of such modernization efforts may be to might drive some users away" ( at least I think it should be "might" ).

        ... that might be true for anyone _besides_ KDE users, there's a reason we run it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: KDE vs Gnome

      That's not the way to bet it.

      Seems like there are more crayons, anyway. Not sure about the small child(ren).

      Long live Xfce.

    3. FatGerman

      Re: KDE vs Gnome

      In some recent experiments I did on a Raspebrry Pi 4, I found KDE usually used less RAM and ran better than GNOME.

      Neither of them ran fast enough to be useable mind....

      1. Lon24 Silver badge

        Re: KDE vs Gnome

        I do overclock my SSD RPis and found KDE to be the desktop of choice useable for most tasks - indeed I use it more than firebreathing power monster that drives my other screen - if only to save on the leccy and [no-fan] silence is golden.

        Plus I rather like Konsole & Dolphin's ability to 'fish' my network. At that level there is hardly any difference between the two.

        Horses for courses. A lot of work tasks are not power or screen intensive. It would be silly to expect an RPi to handle the others whatever the installed desktop.

        [Edit] It was a bit of a rigmarole getting KDE setup properly on the RPi's 64bit Bullesye 'lite'. Maybe our configuations differ?

        1. FatGerman

          Re: KDE vs Gnome

          I was running Manjaro. My usage may be a little more disk-intensive than yours; The Pi really suffers there, for obvious reasons. The main reason I dropped it though was it just wasn't remotely stable, every update broke something fundamental and my patience gave out.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: KDE vs Gnome

            Your stability woes may have been SD card related. Raspberry Pis have always been funny about cheaper SD cards. The same applies to power supplies.

            Manjaro in general is actually pretty stable for the post part. My install is about 8-9 years old at this point, but fully up to date and in that time I've had no random stability issues at all.

            Sure there is the odd dodgy update package now and then and I typically use KVM machines and containers for a lot of development stuff (my Manjaro is pretty bare bones for the most part). The only thing that has ever failed me is an SSD (about 4 years ago) drive and a WD Red 6TB (just failed this week).

            Weirdly, this week I've had a few WD Reds fail at different clients...all of them were bought in 2017.

  4. Adair Silver badge

    Choice ...

    is a wonderful/terrible thing.

  5. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
    Terminator

    GNOME

    "Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it." -- not Marvin the Paranoid Android

  6. NATTtrash Silver badge

    XFCE Dashboard, most favourite Gnome feature....

    We were very happy to learn recently that there's a new dashboard application for Xfce, which gives it a GNOME-like overview screen.

    Not familiar with this, but what is this different to the current ALT-TAB option, available since the stone age, to flick through and change of running applications?

    Is it just a nice new package of the same old same old, or does it really bring something new and exciting?

    1. devin3782 Silver badge

      Re: XFCE Dashboard, most favourite Gnome feature....

      There's no difference really like Alt+tab they both commit the cardinal sin of UI design, the icons/windows don't reappear in the same place every time its activated requiring the user to pause and take note

    2. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: XFCE Dashboard, most favourite Gnome feature....

      The GNOME overview is not really similar, or even comparable, to the alt-tab app switcher of any OS, no.

      It has 2 main functions.

      [1] it uses hardware compositing to show scaled versions of all your current open windows, side by side on one screen, so very visually-oriented people can quickly pick the app that they want to switch to with a single click, rather than working through a list.

      [2] it is also an app launcher, usually with at least 2 modes:

      [2a] a search box so you can type the name, or a descriptive word relating to, the app you want.

      [2b] a set of icons for most-frequently-used apps, again so visual types can just click.

      So it combines 2 functions into one: both app launching *and* app switching.

      If you can't see the window you want, type the name. If it's open, it will switch to it; if it isn't open, it will open it.

      You can also type a description, so for example if you forgot that your text editor is called "Pluma" or "Leafpad" then typing the 1st few letters, e.g. t-e-x-t-e-d, will find it anyway.

      So you don't need to even think "do I want to switch apps or open an app?" The launcher is also a switcher. It combines the two functions into one, so you don't need to choose which to do.

      For comparison:

      Windows 95: taskbar buttons only switch between open apps. You must use the Start menu to open new ones.

      Windows 98 & NT4 + IE4 added a Quick Launch bar.

      With this, you can launch favourite apps direct from the taskbar without opening the Start Menu. Few people discovered that you can use they keyboard: hold down the Windows key and press 1 through 9 to open the first through to the ninth icon in QL.

      But now, you have 2 duplicated entries on the taskbar: a QL icon _and_ maybe an app button. The launcher and switcher remain separate.

      Windows Vista: now you can pin icons to the taskbar. If you launch it (and the old WinKey+digit shortcuts still work) its launcher icon expands into an app button. The distinction between launching and switching is removed: one icon does both, like on Mac OS X's Dock.

      But these are only icons. You need to mouse over them for a preview of the window or windows. That means doing what is called "scrubbing the dock" with the mouse if you're not sure which window you want.

      So then OS X 10.3 introduced Exposé: a hardware-accelerated full-screen tiled view of all open windows.

      OS X 10.7 combined this with the virtual-desktops feature for an instant overview of all windows on all desktops, now named Mission Control.

      GNOME's Overview is something broadly similar, but also combines it with both iconic and search-driven app launchers, akin to Mac OS X's Launchpad and Spotlight and Mission Control, all in one.

      Personally, I am not that visual a thinker and I rarely need it, but it is often cited by GNOME users as a favourite feature, and I welcome seeing it in other desktops.

  7. Ian Johnston Silver badge

    Why does anyone use GNOME? The project is clearly run by a bunch of idiot control freaks.

    1. Def Silver badge

      The project is clearly run by a bunch of idiot control freaks.

      Sorry, are you implying there's an open source project out there that isn't?

      The very nature of open source tends towards this. If you don't like how a project is managed, you just fork it and make your own version that you control.

      1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Sorry, are you implying there's an open source project out there that isn't?

        Fair point. The GNOME team do seem to have an especially sadistic streak, though. Most OS teams ignore their users ("Who cares what you want?"); the GNOME lot activity despise them ("We know what you want, so here's something completely different. Now fuck off.").

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Meh

        I disagree. The point of open source is NOT to create your own "fifedom" unless you like a small audience or are just doing it for fun.

        The point of open source is to collaborate, either by just giving what you do out to the public sphere (with a license if you want), or to assist others by fixing/improving their stuff. Or testing. Or feedback.

    2. sebacoustic

      I use Gnome 43 and it does stay out of the way quite a lot which I like. Running fedora 37 β now and the changes are a welcome addition to round it out. Yes the first iterations of Gnome3 were a rough ride but now it suits me fine. When I switch to Windows (use it every day for work via RDP from Linux) i miss some of the nice features, but when forced to use a native windows10 instance i feel like a fish out of water. The Windows "RDP client" is *the worst*.

      Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment then, or just happy to spend 10 minutes learning the sensible defaults.

      OK the gnome file dialog still kinda sucks. I liked the NextStep one best, or maybe that's just nostalgia to the formative years.

      EDIT: just checked on the latest iteration they fixed the most annoying stuff about the file save dialog, ah well that tool only a few years...

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      my sentiments exactly! (unfortunately there is a small subset of very vocal, unfortunately influential users who influence these projects and possibly inject money into them... maybe Micros~1?)

  8. drankinatty

    The strive to be a desktop on mobile has killed both KDE and Gnome

    When Gnome3 was going through the throws of development and as Plasma was envisioned, both desktops began looking more and more bland like rudimentary web-pages. User-choice and configuration options disappeared (just try and find the setting to set the font for the clock in the taskbar on either desktop). Both desktops arrogantly began removing configuration options under the premise the desktop knows better than the user how the desktop should look. Nanny auto-sizing of most elements. All with an eye to move the desktops to a point they could adapt and run on mobile or tablets or ... take your pick.

    What was lost in all of this misguided desktop development -- was how the desktops actually look on -- desktop computers. That apparently became a secondary matter. Now granted Plasma can still be made to look reasonable (it just can't remember what it looked like the last time it shut down), but I'm not going to wait 40 seconds for it to load and figure out how it wants to look this startup. Add Wayland and add another 10 seconds.

    Gnome just looks like milk-toast, bland, unexciting, hopelessly crippled by the look of Adwaita. The real pisser was how the version creep of the Gtk toolkit infected all of the 3rd party apps that relied on it. Now, for example, the bookmarks in Firefox take 2X the vertical space to display ellipsizing and running off the bottom of the screen. This is progress?

    Were it not for the fact that Gnome is the default desktop on Fedora, it's usership would look like the trace of lemmings running over a cliff. (ditto for the Gtk4 toolkit). We used to field a fair number of Gtk+ questions on StackOverflow 6-7 years ago. There was one Gtk+3 question tonight, but the last before that was months ago. Both teams, while made up of very talented people, have really "screwed the pooch" in desktop stewardship over the past decade. Gone is looking forward to new versions of the flagship desktops, replaced by the sentiment of "I hope they didn't F'it up even more this time..."

    1. crayon

      Re: The strive to be a desktop on mobile has killed both KDE and Gnome

      "just try and find the setting to set the font for the clock in the taskbar on either desktop"

      Running KDE on openSUSE Tumbleweed:

      right-click on Clock -> configure Digital Clock (it's on the first tab shown "Appearance").

      But yeah, in general things are more locked down and defaults are dumb (probably the dumbest idea is for thin or invisible windows borders and scroll bars, bl00dy annoying).

      Things that worked perfectly in KDE3 got screwed up in KDE4+, eg Restore Session, all programs were restored in their respective Desktops. With KDE4+, programs that were in Desktops 1 & 2 nearly always gets restored randomly into each other, programs on Desktops 3+ were mostly restored correctly.

      By some version of KDE5 this seems to have been fixed, ie I've not noticed this problem for a while. However starting from some version of KDE5 another feature I rely on has been screwed. I setup window properties for various programs, eg the calculator will always start up with its window:

      - always on top of other windows

      - shaded

      - appears on all desktops

      But now when you start up programs with custom window properties they appear with a minimum window size (so small no content is visible), and when you try to resize it it will sometimes disappear off the screen, to get it back you need to right-click the program on the taskbar and toggle the maximise/minimise window a few times.

      KDE3 was the best version so far. KDE3 -> KDE5 was like 2 steps forward and 3 steps back. KDE4 -> KDE5 gradually improved to 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.

      1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Re: The strive to be a desktop on mobile has killed both KDE and Gnome

        [Article author here]

        I'd tend to agree with you, except that I'd go back further: I really liked KDE 1.x, which made Linux usable with a FOSS desktop for the first time for me. It wasn't pretty but it worked and did all I needed.

        KDE 2.x was bloated and overcomplex. Corel LinuxOS and later Xandros tamed that and made it quite pleasant to use.

        After that, it all became way too much for me.

        1. robinsonb5

          Re: The strive to be a desktop on mobile has killed both KDE and Gnome

          I beg to differ - my first introduction to KDE was version 1.something as shipped with... SuSE 7, I think it was. It had a Bryce-inspired theme which (while almost certainly not to everyone's tastes) was extremely pretty, imaginative, and it also had such niceties as animated window titlebars that scrolled if the title was too long to fit. All stuff that fell by the wayside as the desktops "improved".

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: The strive to be a desktop on mobile has killed both KDE and Gnome

          I forget which KDE was used by Linspire but it looked and worked ok for me. Then again I quickly replaced Linspire with Debian (this was long before systemd) so I could have an inexpensive Linux box with an OS that I believed gave me more choice and a better way of maintaining it.

          (and my desktop of choice at that time was Gnome 2, back when gnome was pretty good)

  9. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    KDE is less annoying.

    Just gave Plasma a spin. You can still control the window decoration, so you can still have proper title bars and controls. installing themes seems to be broken (requires manual file copying), and the theme store is a wasteland.

    But it generally works in an unsurprising way, or can be configured to do so which is a big win in my book.

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: KDE is less annoying.

      I would tend to agree, but IMHO, Xfce is even less annoying still.

      I am working on an article on this subject...

      1. Lon24 Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: KDE is less annoying.

        Yep, the very opportunity to change almost anything on KDE can be daunting at times and I have yearned for somrthing simpler. Until last night. I fdid my first Install of Windows 11 and tried to change the taskbar height.

        That should be put taskbar in edit mode and drag everything to where you want. Oh, no.

        It takes a deep Regedit which gives you only three choices - except if you want it smaller the systray falls off the bottom. Even Gnome on Win11 would be an improvement ;-)

      2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

        Re: KDE is less annoying.

        I use Xubuntu (on three desktops and two laptops) and the only things which piss me off are those applications which use GNOME's new unusability guidelines. You know the sort of thing: two gearwheel icons top right, one of which is settings and one of which is everything else.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No mention of the nightmare that is GTK4? Why not?

    Some of us thought GTK3 was pretty good!

    Then along come some know-it-alls who gave us GTK4.......and no backward compatibility at all!! Really??

    Take a look: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/migrating-3to4.html

    Endless ORDERS to "Do not use X"...... "Stop using Y"....... "Reduce the use of Z"....

    It's almost impossible to move from GTK3 to GTK4 without a total rewrite......

    No wonder the Glade team are not moving off GTK3! Why would they? GTK3 is perfectly fine!! Certainly is here!!

    ASIDE: What was wrong with Gnome2? I hated Gnome3....and Gnome4!! Still using XFCE4......please just dump Gnome!!!!

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: No mention of the nightmare that is GTK4? Why not?

      It's almost impossible to move from GTK3 to GTK4 without a total rewrite......

      Which is YET ANOTHER reason that major packages (firefox, thunderbird, vlc, wireshark, and so on) should NOT DO ANY DEVELOPMENT for GTK4 !!!

      * Colossal waste of time

      * Isolate/abandon Mate and Cinnamon users

      * Very little benefit, apparently HIGH cost in time and debugging

      * No future in GTK4 (or Wayland for that matter) In My Bombastic Opinion

      "Just Say NO"

      (and maybe it will ride off into the sunset, never to be seen again...)

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