back to article Googler says she was forced out after opposing $1.2bn cloud contract with Israel

Ariel Koren, a Jewish Googler, claims the internet giant pressured her into resigning in retaliation for her speaking out about Google and Amazon's $1.2 billion cloud contract with Israel's government and military. The massive supply deal, dubbed Project Nimbus, will provide cloud and AI services to Israeli government …

  1. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Don't be Evil

    Is and always was Googles sarcastic motto. The real motto was always "Resistance is Futile...". You all know the rest.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Don't be Evil

      go ogle dropped their "don't be evil" motto as of October of 2015, when Alphabet decided "Do the right thing" was more appropriate. Following that "don't be evil" was vestigial, at best, an afterthought in the CoC before eventually being quietly removed.

      They don't mention what 'the right thing" is. Nor to whom they are supposed to do it.

      1. Kaki

        Re: Don't be Evil

        I think that would be "Do the right thing to maximise profit"

    2. aki009

      Re: Don't be Evil

      It's newspeak for "Be Evil with Plausible Deniability".

      The company is well overdue for getting dissected like Ma Bell back in the day.

  2. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Employee

    Employee is a synonym of a modern slave. Earn enough money to live (if you are exceptional), but not enough to become dangerous.

    Late stage capitalists pulled up all the ladders through lobbying / corruption and consolidated their power.

    What employee thinks no longer matter.

    1. cornetman Silver badge

      Re: Employee

      > Employee is a synonym of a modern slave.

      Except of course, she resigned and the government didn't clap her in irons and take her back for more slavery.

      I realise that you are being flippant here (aren't you?), but capitalism is working how it is supposed to. Sometimes, if you vehemently disagree with what your employer is doing, standing up for what you believe causes you some inconvenience, but then if it didn't it would be a rather empty gesture, wouldn't it?

      1. nintendoeats Silver badge

        Re: Employee

        I also have a choice of ISPs. I'll go with the one that doesn't suck. Oh wait.

        1. Robert Grant Silver badge

          Re: Employee

          You also don't have a flying car and that's capitalism's fault. Why won't it just give you everything you want?

      2. sabroni Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

        Yeah, it's supposed to make the planet unfit for human habitation.

        1. ICL1900-G3 Bronze badge

          Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

          Downvoters - or their children - will discover the truth of this.

          1. imanidiot Silver badge

            Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

            And I suppose you think communism or socialism or whatever other -ism, would do any better??? I have a bridge to sell you. Or a very tall tower in the center of Paris.

            1. LionelB Silver badge

              Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

              You forgot whatabout-ism.

        2. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

          Do a bit of research on the environmental record of the Soviet Union if you want to see how things went down in the great worker's paradise.

          It was the same story in the Eastern Block, and, when the data comes out, China.

          Capitalism is MUCH better for then environment than any other system in practice.

          1. GNU SedGawk

            Re: but capitalism is working how it is supposed to.

            Bollocks,

            It's not working out so well for the environment, and a system based on maximizing short term profit has led us to massive inequity with many people suffering under climate crisis.

  3. aerogems Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Huh

    Did Google poach some IBM HR staffers or something? This is pretty much exactly like the latest story about IBM using relocation as a means of constructive discharge.

  4. Auntie Dix Bronze badge
    Big Brother

    Our Immature, Kardouchean Society of Insufficiently Regulated Capitalism

    "Jewgler"...no wonder he couldn't fix my watch.

    Per this article, Google should be prosecuted for its Brazilian wack. Clearly, it is retaliation, no matter your politics.

    Scum companies flourish under unregulated capitalism. Abuses will continue unabated unless society redefines success to include consistently humane, ethical conduct and punishes violators vigorously.

    No chance of that anytime soon. More overseas, slave-wage outsourcing!

    I remember Apple's third-party kids jumping from factory windows: That was no big deal to most Apple customers. Did not hurt sales one bit.

    Google's Dragonfly censorship was such an obvious red flag (of many), but did the media shout out about it in the same way as the latest Kardouchean trivia or iPhone?

    Pervasive surveillance is one of the scariest threats to freedom, but measure-of-success Google exists solely to make money. It worries solely about its freedom and no one else's.

    1. Paul_Canada

      Re: Our Immature, Kardouchean Society of Insufficiently Regulated Capitalism

      Whatever the situation, I don't think Google did itself any favours by pressuring her out. If they hadn't, the likelihood is her cause would have died off.

  5. Paul_Canada

    A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

    In this case this employee, Ariel, states on her Medium blog post that she doesn't even think Israel should exist! Well I ask her where do 4M Jews go once the state is dissolved? She claims that the Jewish ERG at Google is being weaponized, but I would say she is the one trying to weaponize against the Jewish ERG by the sounds of it, given she decided to attack a *Jewish* ERG for Google's contract with *Israel*.

    1. GNU SedGawk

      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

      The people living between the River and the Sea are under the effective control of the Zionist Entity. This currently means a regime of Jewish supremacy, an Apartheid regime which denies rights to people based on ethnicity and religion.

      Dissolving the Apartheid regime would replace Zionist State with a binational democratic country called Palestine, in which Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, and followers of the flying spaghetti monster (bless his noodlely appendages) would have equal rights under the law.

      <blockquote>The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime. One organizing principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians. B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians

      </blockquote>

      https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

      Currently a racist regime has imposed apartheid on the survivors of a genocide aimed at eradicating the thousands of years of Palestinian presence in Palestine.

      Finally conflating Zionism and Judaism is disgusting.

      Judaism is a faith, Zionism is Anti Palestinian racism.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

        Currently a racist regime has imposed apartheid on the survivors of a genocide aimed at eradicating the thousands of years of Palestinian presence in Palestine.

        Just remind me, will you ... which group fire rockets by the hundred at the civilian population of which group?

        1. GNU SedGawk

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          The Zionist State Terrorist group has murdered countless people in flagrant violation of international law.

          Conversely the Heroic Palestinian resistance groups are using <blockquote>

          United Nations General Assembly passed resolution A/RES/37/43 concerning the ‘[i]mportance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination’. It endorsed, without qualification, ‘the inalienable right’ of the Palestinian people to ‘self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without outside interference’, and reaffirmed the legitimacy of their struggle for those rights ‘by all available means, including armed struggle’.

          </blockquote>

          The Zionist State Terrorist group https://mondoweiss.net/2022/08/israels-friends-struggle-to-justify-unprovoked-attack-that-killed-16-children/ murders simply because the demographics are against the colonisation of Palestine,

        2. GNU SedGawk

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          The answer is that it's the Zionist settler colonial Apartheid regime which occupied Palestine that is attacking the Palestinian Civilian population.

          Dropping 2 ton bombs on a population of two million people where over 50% are below the age of 18, that is the Zionist State Terrorist group.

          Attacking Funerals of the people murdered by Zionist State Terrorists, that is the colonizers of Occupied Palestine.

          The disgusting attempt to frame resistance to being murdered as somehow illegitimate demonstrates how effectively you've dehumanized the Palestinian People.

          Let me quote you the words of Polish Atheist Zionist Terrorist Ben-Gurion.

          <blockquote>"We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? Who would accept that?" - David Ben-Gurion, The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

          </blockquote>

          Or more explicitly

          <blockquote>

          Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :

          "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652)

          </blockquote>

        3. LionelB Silver badge

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          The fact that some opposition to Israeli state aggression against Palestinians uses deplorable terror tactics does not, however, excuse vile behaviour by the Israeli state.

          The Israeli state, furthermore -- much as it tries to claim otherwise -- does not represent some kind of monolithic Jewish sentiment, either in Israel itself or worldwide; nor does criticism of its actions (by anyone) constitute antisemitism. As a human being who happens to be Jewish and fundamentally opposed to Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, I deeply resent my Jewishness being conflated with support for the actions of the Israeli state.

          1. Paul_Canada

            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

            The key question anti-zionists never seem to be able to answer: Where do 4M+ Jews go once the Israeli state is dissolved? Cos the Palestinian state isn't gonna have them (and if you think they would, imo that's not a realistic conception of the current state of the conflict).

            1. GNU SedGawk

              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

              Dissolving the Apartheid regime would replace Zionist State with a binational democratic country called Palestine, in which Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, and followers of the flying spaghetti monster (bless his noodlely appendages) would have equal rights under the law.

              Why do they go anywhere, they live where they live with equal rights to their neighbours.

              1. Paul_Canada

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                Well that's a fun delusion. Since the inception of Israel, arabs have been trying to kill Jews. What makes you think they're suddenly gonna go for peace?

                1. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  Since the start of Zionist occupation of Palestine in 1917, Palestinians have resisted their murder and violent dispossession.

                  Conversely the Zionist Entity has attacked Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan.

                  It's the Zionist State Terrorist group which needs to come under international law..

                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                    Enough with the "Zionist State Terrorist group". Zionism is a fact, a done deal. The state of Israel exists. History, for better or for worse, is not simply reversible. It is the politics of the Israeli state which is the problem - effectively hijacked by religious fanatics (it has not always been so). The tragic irony is that Palestinian politics has also been hijacked by religious fanatics (it has not always been so).

                    1. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                      The Zionist State Terrorist group has no legitimacy. Algeria defeated 130 years of French occupation,

                      Zionism is Anti Palestinian Racism, and always was Anti Palestinian Racism.

                      A bunch of well armed terrorists backed by the Leading imperial powers are occupying Palestine - you can call it blue cheese if you like, Palestine it remains.

                      The racist idea of murdering people, destroying their homes, stealing their land, thier homes, their culture and their history.

                      Zionism has failed, it's only sustainable by the constant murder of the Palestinian population, and despite that there is still not a majority of Zionist State Terrorists between the river and the sea.

                      Zionist State Terrorists murdered the "Swedish Oskar Schindler", <blockquote>Count Folke Bernadotte, the Swedish aristocrat, who arguably did the most to save people from the concentration camps in the latter years of World War II, at the time when Winston Churchill, prime minister of Britain, said, more or less, that he didn’t want to know about their plight?

                      ...

                      However, Himmler knew that if Hitler found out about his cooperation with Bernadotte Hitler would be enraged. Thus every step he took toward Bernadotte was excruciatingly slow.

                      In the end in the first step around 7,500 women, including a thousand Jews, were released from Ravensbrück concentration camp. Himmler had allowed the Swedish buses to come to door of the camp. Bernadotte was acting at full speed fearful the Soviet army would arrive, open the gates, but rape the women. Altogether Bernadotte spirited away by one means and another 30,000 prisoners.

                      In his last meeting with Bernadotte, Himmler offered a deal. He would order the release of all the prisoners if Bernadotte via the Swedish government would send a message to the Allies’ chief commander, Dwight Eisenhower, to say Germany would cooperate in an effort to stall the Soviet advance.

                      Relaying Himmler’s offer to Stockholm cost Bernadotte nothing, but he was able to wring more concessions out of Himmler. He got Himmler to approve the capitulation of German troops in Denmark and Norway.

                      The energy, cunning, and forcefulness that Bernadotte deployed is excellently portrayed in the book. It spilt over into his post-war work in Palestine on behalf of the United Nations. It is one of the great ironies of the last century that Bernadotte was murdered by the Jewish Stern Gang because he supported the idea that Jerusalem should be the capital of a new Palestine, as well as Israel’s capital. Yitzhak Shamir, later to be a prime minister of Israel, was a mastermind of the murder.

                      </blockquote>

            2. LionelB Silver badge

              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

              I am not (if that's what you were implying) anti-Zionist. But nor am I a Zionist (see below). I am in favour of a political (possibly, but not necessarily, two-state) settlement for Israel/Palestine - although, tragically, that possibility seems to recede ever further with politics on both sides hijacked by religious fanatics.

              Here's why I am not a Zionist. I perfectly understand the motivation. My mother's German-Jewish family fled Berlin in 1937. It is hardly surprising that Jews of the diaspora might, after centuries of murderous persecution, seek a permanent geographical refuge. But here's the thing: my mother's family had every right to be in Berlin and not be fucked with. Jews have every right to be wherever they are and not be fucked with. (Oh, of course that goes for all you lovely non-Jews too ;-)). As a Jew I embrace the diaspora, which I believe has enriched every part of the world it has touched. I am of it, and happy to be so. I may well be (I don't know) in a minority among Jews in that regard; but I am certainly not, and have no right to be, critical of Jews who feel otherwise.

              1. GNU SedGawk

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                The Zionist war of conquest against Palestine was started in 1917 with the Balfour declaration

                The European Crimes against humanity during the C20th had nothing to do with Palestine..

                Attempting to link them is Zionist hasbara - and had been debunked repeatedly.

                People have equal human rights, being a Jew or a Palestinian, or a Palestinian Jew doesn't affect that.

                The occupation and apartheid inflicted on Palestine is unjustifiable and unjustified by references to European history.

                Palestians rights don't exist as a balance to some other group, they are inalienable and indivisible.

                1. LionelB Silver badge

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  Note firstly that the Zionist movement was a response to repeated (antisemitic) crimes against humanity which persisted from the birth of Christianity onwards - i.e., for many hundreds of years prior to the 20th century.

                  I don't disagree that there were grave historical wrongs against the Palestinian people in the history of the formation of the state of Israel. No-one comes out of that well. Nor am I claiming that the (continued) suffering of the Palestinian people is in any way justified by the (nearly 2000 years of) suffering of European Jews. My stated position is that I am not in fact a Zionist, but that I understand why many other Jews are.

                  But we cannot turn back the clock. Name-calling and finger-pointing will not achieve a just peace, and the notion that the Jewish people living in Israel/Palestine are going to simply get up and leave is a pipe-dream, and a recipe for indefinitely protracted suffering on all sides, with the Palestinian people, as usual, bearing the brunt. We need to work towards an in-place political settlement. Can we agree on that?

                  1. GNU SedGawk

                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                    <blockquote>

                    Note firstly that the Zionist movement was a response to repeated (antisemitic) crimes against humanity which persisted from the birth of Christianity onwards - i.e., for many hundreds of years prior to the 20th century.

                    </blockquote> Zionism is Anti Palestinian Racism,

                    Attempt to link a genocidal settler colonial enterprise dedicated to erasing the inhabitants of a country with European racism towards Jews is a Zionist rhetorical trick.

                    Zionism was perpetrated by Zionist State Terrorists who bombed Jews in Iraq, in Egypt, in Palestine. The colonization of Palestine offered huge wealth to the backers, to this day, peoples homes are still stolen with organized bands of thieves like Elad <blockquote>

                    “But if I don’t steal it, someone else is gonna steal it” – In a video clip widely shared on social media platforms in late April 2021, Mona al-Kurd (a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem’s Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood) is seen confronting Jacob Fauci (an Israeli Jewish settler from Long Island) in the yard of her family home.

                    ,,,

                    “You are stealing my house,” al-Kurd continued, to which Fauci countered, “Yes, but if I don’t steal it, someone else is gonna steal it.”

                    </blockquote>https://merip.org/2022/05/but-if-i-dont-steal-it-someone-else-is-gonna-steal-it-israeli-settler-colonial-accumulation-by-dispossession/

                    That you can empathise with a dehumanizing racist ideology which is deeply disdainful of the basic humanity of millions of people reflects poorly on you.

                    <blockquote>I don't disagree that there were grave historical wrongs against the Palestinian people in the history of the formation of the state of Israel. No-one comes out of that well.</blockquote> Another Zionist rhetorical trick. Firstly the suggestion is that the "wrongs" are "historical", or in the "past". The ongoing mass murder of the Palestinian people continued from 1948 onwards, there have been peaks but the campaign of colonization and mass murder has continued unchecked, only last month 50 people were murdered, including 17 children, the youngest of which was only three months old.

                    They were murdered because it helped improve the image of Yair Laipid the Serbian Zionist Terrorist Squatting in a stolen Palestinian house, his time in the IOF was spent behind a camera, and the racist apartheid approving electorate expect a certain quantity of Palestinian blood at election time, "it was judged a success but not an electoral game changer" https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-714181

                    Secondly the Palestinians come out of it honourably if not favourably, they were massively outgunned, with the worlds imperial powers supplying the Zionists and arrayed against them, it was inevitable that the Palestinians would not prevail, but despite that large numbers of people fought bravely despite certain death. The political fighting had taken place long before 1948, and sadly the Palestinians had missed the entire battle.

                    Zionism conquest of Palestine was done in London by Chaim Weizmann, by the time 1936 rolled around and the British had destroyed the capacity to resist the Zionist State Terrorists, despite this again many brave Palestinians fought with the Allied powers against the Axis powers, the so called white-paper years.

                    <blockquote>

                    The native Palestinians had had no significant military force since the British Army had decisively put down the Palestinian rebellion during 1936-1939.

                    In striking contrast, the Jewish Agency/Zionist Organization had long had effective regular military forces in the Hagana and the Palmach. 61/ In addition, although there were apparent disagreements on tactics, the Zionist terrorist organizations including the Irgun and the Stern Gang worked effec­tively with the Jewish Agency in achieving Zionist political and territorial objectives by military means. 62/ The Palestine Commission was unable under these conditions to exert effective control.

                    </blockquote>

                    https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-196128/

                    After the war seeing their chance the Zionist State Terrorists stepped up their campaign, until the British agreed to only protect their withdrawal of forces from the British mandate - the problem being that even in Partitioned Palestine, there would not be a majority of Jews, never mind Zionists (not all Jews in Palestine were Zionist, native Palestinian Jews were not(100k), the Zionist immigrants(500k) were)

                    Conversely the Zionist massacred village after village, raping women, bayoneting babies.

                    <blockquote>

                    My dear Bunche,

                    May I refer you to paragraph 2 of the Incident Report for the 9th April, in which reference was made to the attack by Jews on the Arab village at Deir Yassin.

                    2. The following supplementary information is now available as regards this incident:-

                    (1) The operation is believed to have been a joint National Military Organisation – Stern Group enterprise undertaken with the knowledge of the Haganah.

                    (2) The deaths of some 250 Arabs, men, women and children, which occurred during this attack, took place in circumstances of great savagery.

                    (3) Woman and children were stripped, lined up, photographed, and then slaughtered by automatic firing and survivors have told of even more incredible bestialities.

                    (4) Those who were taken prisoner were treated with degrading brutality.

                    (5) Although the Haganah is unable to deny that it gave covering fire to the terrorists responsible for this outrage, the action as a whole has been condemned by the Jewish press and denounced by the Chief Rabbinate.

                    (6) Owing to other pre-occupations, the Security Forces were not in a position to act before the 14th April, for which day an air strike at Deir Yassin was arranged.

                    (7) On the 13th April, it became apparent that the Haganah had taken over the village from the terrorists, and the operation was, therefore, suspended.

                    (8) The Government of Palestine reported on the 14th April that it had not yet been possible to enter Deir Yassin and that a Jewish Police Officer sent to investigate was not allowed by the Haganah to proceed beyond Givat Shaul.

                    (9) A representative of the International Red Cross who visited Deir Yassin on the 11th April is said to have stated that in one cave he saw heaped bodies of some 150 Arab men, women and children, whilst in a stronghold a further 50 bodies were found.

                    Yours sincerely,

                    (signed) J. FLETCHER-COOKE

                    Dr. Ralph J. Bunche,

                    Principal Secretary to the United Nations

                    Nations Commission on Palestine

                    United Nations, Lake Success.

                    </blockquote>

                    https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-211346/

                    <blockquote> Nor am I claiming that the (continued) suffering of the Palestinian people is in any way justified by the (nearly 2000 years of) suffering of European Jews. My stated position is that I am not in fact a Zionist, but that I understand why many other Jews are.</blockquote> You are a Zionist arguing a rhetorical position to try to equivocate between a largely defenceless civilian population and a well armed well equipped army who's record of atrocities is breathtaking given the disparity in military capability. You further suggest such matters stopped some unspecified time in the past, when they continue right upto the present day, in the last month a number of children were murdered and other left with triple limb amputations so a politician can pander to racists.

                    <blockquote>

                    But we cannot turn back the clock. Name-calling and finger-pointing will not achieve a just peace, and the notion that the Jewish people living in Israel/Palestine are going to simply get up and leave is a pipe-dream,

                    </blockquote> Who said they have to leave, they just get the same rights as the Palestinians, are equal under the law, the apartheid is dismantled. Everybody between the river to the sea is issued a Palestinian Passport and is allowed to live in peace. The people involved in the crimes against humanity and their accomplices should be given fair trials at the ICC and allowed to account for their behaviour.

                    The people who drop two ton bombs on civilian population claim a military justification, fine let them prove it before the ICC, or let them account for the mass murder of the civilian population. The ongoing war crimes of moving civilians into an occupied area. The ongoing war crime of preventing the return of the inhabitants of Palestine dispossessed and expelled by the Zionist State Terrorists.

                    A "just peace", The blunt fact is that Zionism has failed, one day Palestine will be a different country, and the Apartheid will be over. People will live with equal rights, this day could be tomorrow - or the next but it will happen.

                    1. LionelB Silver badge

                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                      "Attempt to link a genocidal settler colonial enterprise dedicated to erasing the inhabitants of a country with European racism towards Jews is a Zionist rhetorical trick."

                      Did you even read my post? I categorically rejected that "rhetorical trick".

                      "Another Zionist rhetorical trick. Firstly the suggestion is that the "wrongs" are "historical", or in the "past"."

                      Again: I am not a Zionist. The historical wrongs I referred to there are specifically those perpetrated during the formation of the Israeli state. If you were actually paying attention to my comments you would be aware that I don't dispute that the wrongs are ongoing.

                      "You are a Zionist ...".

                      Errm, no, I am not. I explained why.

                      "Who said [the Jews of Israel/Palestine] have to leave ..."

                      Many, many Muslim religious extremists in Palestine and beyond (as you well know). Those people are quite simply racist, and mirror the racism of Jewish religious extremists in Israel and beyond.

                      It seems you have stopped listening (if you ever were), and are simply ranting against a perceived stereotype. This is sad, as in fact I am in agreement with you more than you seem to realise. Sadly, again, this mirrors what we see on the political level - two opposed parties screaming past each other, with the prospect of peace an ignored bystander.

                      "... one day Palestine will be a different country, and the Apartheid will be over. People will live with equal rights, this day could be tomorrow - or the next but it will happen."

                      There you go - I completely agree with you! But that day will not come as long as people on both sides are merely shouting accusations into the void rather than listening to each other.

                      Unfortunately, as you seem to have stopped listening we cannot have a meaningful discussion. I wish you well.

                      1. GNU SedGawk

                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                        I did read your post which starts off linking racism towards Jewish people by European Christians, and attempts to rhetorically link the apartheid imposed on Palestine. Even as you pretend you are not doing so.

                        It's a cheap trick, belied with your next sentence which says you empathise with the shockingly racist premise.

                        The same cheap rhetorical trick is attempting to draw a symmetry "..but that day will not come as long as people on both sides.." between the Occupier and the Occupied, as if the rapist and the rape victims have equality in the legitimacy of their use of violence.

                        The Zionist State Terrorist group has no legitimate claim on Palestine, a regime of violence and crime has no legitimacy - to attempt to frame this as position of sides, rather the bold facts of oppressor and oppressed, is another cheap Zionist rhetorical trick.

                        "Who said [the Jews of Israel/Palestine] have to leave ..."

                        Another Zionist Rhetorical trick, ad-nausum I have repeated the ask is for all people to be given equality, and the Zionist talking point in response to change the subjects and draw in "Many, many Muslim religious extremists in Palestine.. " The Apartheid entity has murdered tens of thousands of people, the upper estimate blames Zionist State for five million deaths since 1948, there is simply no comparison to be drawn between Zionist State Terrorists, and resistance to Zionist State Terrorism

                        <blockquote>Richard Falk wrote that under the doctrine, "the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism."[17]

                        </blockquote>

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

                        Sure you claim you are not a Zionist why spewing Zionist talking points, try the hasbara elsewhere.

                        From one to another shabbat shalom

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          "Just remind me", what a nasty comment, deliberately designed to sting. A 'reminder' of the figures:

          "which group fire rockets by the hundred at the civilian population of which group?"

          27 Deaths from rockets: 2004 to 2014.

          2008 Gaza War:

          Israel: Total killed: 13 Soldiers: 10 (friendly fire: 4)

          Palestinian: Total killed: 1,166–1,417 (these were human beings too)

          2014 Gaza War:

          Israel: Total killed: 67 soldiers and 6 civilians (1 Thai) killed,

          Palestinian: Total killed: 2,310 killed (Hamas Claim), 2125 Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs claim 2,310 UN HRC claim (these were human beings too)

          So in revenge, well over 4000 killed.

          1. Paul_Canada

            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

            It's simple: Don't fire rockets at Israel and they won't fire rockets back at you.

            1. GNU SedGawk

              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

              Okay, don't colonise them and they won't resist colonisation.

              1. Paul_Canada

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                Too late!

            2. GNU SedGawk

              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

              Israel has just bombed Aleppo international airport with complete disregard for civilians, civil planes and civilian infrastructure.

              What next, don't have airports?

              1. Paul_Canada

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                Aleppo is in syria.

              2. L King

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                You're a very bad liar, both here and elsewhere. The target was a set of warehouses containing a shipment of Iranian rockets. There were no casualties, indicating that the IDF was being careful not to attack civiians or civilian infrastructure.

                Israel launched a missile attack on Wednesday targeting the airport in the Syrian city of Aleppo, Syrian state media said, citing a military source.

                The Syrian government did not report any casualties.

                The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a U.K.-based opposition war monitor, said in a statement that Israel fired four missiles targeting a runway at the Aleppo International Airport and warehouses surrounding it. The group claimed that the warehouses likely contained a shipment of Iranian rockets.

                https://www.ktsm.com/news/international/ap-syria-israel-strikes-aleppo-airport

                Elsewhere you falsely blamed Israeli spyware for involvement in the death of Khashoggi. Also false. The Saudis in Turkey simply called him and asked to meet him in theri embassy, and naively he went. No high tech spy drama there.and nothing to do with Israel.

                Will you apologize for telling lies? Doubtful. Likely you'll just double down and tell another. Odds are you're also a 9/11 Truther.

                1. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  They bombed an civilian airport, in another country - it's an act of flagrant terrorism.

                  If Syria bombed tel aviv airport, you'd see it differently but the naked racism inherent in Zionism, doesn't allow for seeing Syrians as people either.

                  1. L King

                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                    The naked racism is entirely yours. Israel targetted a depot of Iranian supplied arms that was being transferred to Hezbollah. And Hezbollah did bomb Jewish communities and cities, often using missiles loaded with ball bearings designed to tear human flesh.

                    https://www.news24.com/news24/hezbollah-war-crimes-charge-20060913

                    So a preemptive strike where no-one was actually killed is exactly what you ought to support but the naked racism inherent in your anti-Zionism doesn't allow you to see Jews as human beings with a right to self defense. Instead you spin a false narrative of "civilian" infrastructure and racism where the racism is entirely your own.

                    https://www.ktsm.com/news/international/ap-syria-israel-strikes-aleppo-airport

                    One shouldn't doubt that Hezbollah has threatened to commit war crimes against Israeli civilians.

                    INN Feb 17, 2017

                    Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, in a televised address from his bunker in Lebanon, on Tuesday evening appeared to have threatened to hit Haifa’s ammonia tank with a missile.

                    "Hezbollah has a 'nuclear bomb' - Haifa has 15 tons of ammonia, and any Hezbollah missile attack will turn them into a nuclear bomb that would cause the deaths of tens of thousands," he declared.

                    .

                    1. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                      Lebanon is not Syria - you racist hasbara doesn't even stretch to the right country.

                      The bombing of a civilian airport is an act of terrorism, <blockquote>Richard Falk wrote that under the doctrine, "the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism."[17] </blockquote>

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

                2. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  <blockquote>

                  Elsewhere you falsely blamed Israeli spyware for involvement in the death of Khashoggi. Also false. The Saudis in Turkey simply called him and asked to meet him in theri embassy, and naively he went. No high tech spy drama there.and nothing to do with Israel.

                  </blockquote>

                  Hasbara was so much easier before the internet.

                  <blockquote>

                  Israeli firm NSO Group’s Pegasus spyware was placed on the cellphone of the wife of Jamal Khashoggi months before he was murdered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, the Washington Post claimed on Tuesday.

                  </blockquote>

                  https://www.timesofisrael.com/nsos-pegasus-used-to-target-khashoggis-wife-before-his-murder-washington-post/

                3. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  <blockquote>You're a very bad liar, both here and elsewhere. The target was a set of warehouses containing a shipment of Iranian rockets. There were no casualties, indicating that the IDF was being careful not to attack civiians or civilian infrastructure.

                  Israel launched a missile attack on Wednesday targeting the airport in the Syrian city of Aleppo, Syrian state media said, citing a military source.

                  </blockquote>

                  Do you even read your lies.

                  "being careful not to attack ...civilian infrastructure."

                  "Israel launched a missile attack on Wednesday targeting the airport"

                  Civilian airports are civilian infrastructure and firing a missile at a civilian airport is an act of Terrorism.

                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                    Of course if a civilian airport is used for the transport of armaments, it is de facto no longer a civilian airport - it is a military airport (with a civilian human shield).

                    1. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                      Interesting the "non Zionist" quotes the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine, it's act of naked terrorism, are they seeking geographical safe refuge for the Syrian oil?

                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                        That was not a quote. I've never read that article and never heard of that "doctrine". It was a personal observation (and one you'd hardly need to be any kind of "-ist" to make).

                        File under yet another lame attempt at pigeonholing me.

                        1. GNU SedGawk

                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                          whatever dude, Zionist State Bombs a civilian airpoint, you make the insinuation that its a legitatmate target and toss in the "human shield".

                          Sure, you don't fit the profile of Zionist Hasbara pretending to be arguing from a position of integrity.

                          It's an airport which a Terrorist group bombed, the Terrorist group being Zionist State and the airport being in Syria don't change that fact.

      2. Paul_Canada

        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

        It's funny that you say conflating zionism and Judaism is disgusting and yet call Israel's regime a Jewish supremacist apartheid.

        I don't agree with your stance on Israel, but I agree with your solution as one likely viable solution. It should not be called Israel or Palestine though, Isratin is the proposed binational state name. I would propose that it work a bit like the EU - the country is divided into several provinces that govern themselves and are overseen by a federal level shared democratic government. Investment should be put into the Palestinian areas to catch their development up. After a certain period of development (~5 years), freedom of movement should then be instituted. The right to return should be preserved for Jews and allowed for Palestinian descendents.

        1. GNU SedGawk

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          What you "find funny" is a direct quote from a Jewish Run Human rights organization in Occupied Palestine https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

          The immigrant population of settler colonialists from the world at large are not returning given they've never set foot in the place.

          The right of return is the rights in the Geneva convention of refugees who were expelled from Palestine by Zionist Terrorist Gangs, and have a legal right to return to their homes, lands, and property..

          The clearest parallel is the repatriation of looted art stolen by the Nazis. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/feb/10/justice-can-triumph-painting-looted-by-nazis-returned-to-owners-after-80-years

          The rest of you screed is deluded, people can live where they want, with whom they want, with the same rights and freedoms as each other - just like before the Zionist occupation began.

          With equal measures of freedom, dignity, equity, and opportunity, protected equally under the law, instead of the disgusting state of affairs that sees children kidnapped and forced to consume petrol, set ablaze so that crowds of jeering fanatics can taunt small children they tool will be burnt alive.

          1. Paul_Canada

            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

            TL;DR:

          2. LionelB Silver badge

            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

            "... people can live where they want, with whom they want, with the same rights and freedoms as each other - just like before the Zionist occupation began."

            He, he. You mean all those rights and freedoms under occupation by, ooh, let me see... the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Muslim Caliphates, Crusaders, Ottomans and good ol' British?

            1. GNU SedGawk

              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

              The Zionist occupation began after the fall of the Ottoman empire, it was the British that occupied Palestine until the Zionists were able to do without the "iron wall"

              In Ottoman Palestine, Palestinian Jews and Muslims mixed freely, it's Europe that has the record of Racism to Jews not Palestine.

              1. LionelB Silver badge

                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                I think that's a somewhat rose-tinted view of Palestine under the Ottomans... but I don't disagree re. European antisemitism. (As an ironical aside, a large proportion of Maghrebi Jews -- who generally lived peacefully among predominantly Muslim populations -- ended up migrating to Israel/Palestine after the creation of the state of Israel turned Muslim sentiment against them.)

                1. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                  Zionists attacked Jews before 1948, during 1948 and after 1948. They did this to cause problems in the relevant countries, interestingly the Zionists were not able to attack Iran, which has the largest Jewish population in the middle east second only to Zionist State itself, despite being a Muslim theocracy, I posit these are not unrelated facts.

                  The Iraqi Jews were attacked by the Zionists as they needed a population to hold the land.<blockquote>Yehuda Tager, an Israeli agent who operated in Baghdad, sheds new light on a 55-year-old mystery: Who carried out the bombing of the Masuda Shemtov synagogue.</blockquote>

                  https://www.haaretz.com/2006-04-06/ty-article/now-it-can-be-told/0000017f-e185-d804-ad7f-f1ff68e50000

                  The Zionists tried to do the same in Egypt but were caught <blockquote>srael publicly denied any involvement in the incident until 2005, when the surviving agents were awarded certificates of appreciation by Israeli President Moshe Katsav.[3]</blockquote>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

                  So again another Zionist rhetorical trick, to suggest that the immigration of Iraqi and Egyptian Jews was not a reaction to Zionist Terrorism designed to turn the countries of Eqypt and Iraq into a hostile place for Jews, whom had lived in those countries for centuries.

                  <blockquote>

                  Zionists were also active in bringing about the emigration of Morocco's Jews to Israel. Morocco was under French colonial occupation at the time, so the Jewish Agency had to strike an agreement with the French governor of Morocco to bring about the emigration of Moroccan Jews, who had to face horrific conditions on Israeli ships, according to Segev and other sources. Some of the 100,000 Jews who left, according to the Jewish Agency emissary, had to be virtually "taken aboard the ships by force". </blockquote>

                  https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/truth-behind-israeli-propaganda-expulsion-arab-jews

                  You are a Zionist and you should have the courage to state it plainly rather than engage in shabby rhetoric.

                  Palestine was out politically fought, out gunned, and still is a loser in the court of public opinion,

                  Despite that they have justice on their side, and many brave Jews stand with the Palestinian people, denounce Zionism as the Anti Palestinian racism it so patently is.

                  Apartheid is wrong, all people under international law have certain rights, eventually the Palestinian people will claim theirs for themselves or be assisted to do so by humanity. History bends towards justice, and lets face it the Zionists lost already, the increasing brutality and hostility to nationalist expressions of Palestine such as flags and funeral processions is an outward sign of the awareness that this will not last, Palestine will be free from river to the sea, Zionists murderers will face the ICC.

                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                    "You are a Zionist..."

                    It turns out that you do not get to define who/what I am (any more than I do you). To think otherwise is extraordinary arrogance.

                    But you are not listening; you are pigeonholing and hearing what you want to hear.

                    I wish you well.

                    1. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                      I don't claim authority over you, but you have convincingly portrayed yourself as sympathetic to Zionism, and have repeatedly tried to equivocate between a defenceless civilian population and a Nuclear army with tanks, heavy artillery and Billions of American weaponry and diplomatic cover.

                      You repeat "both sides" as if the Palestinians are responsible for their murder by Zionist State Terrorists.

                      You say historical wrongs during the founding, as if the wrongs stopped.

                      It turns out if you walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and leave a trail of duck feathers, people are not going to think you are a goose.

                      Read what you wrote, if you are genuinely not a Zionist, you are confused, and need to educate yourself.

                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                        Again, you were not listening. I am indeed sympathetic to the motivation behind Zionism (how could I not be, given my family history?) But, firstly, as I explained, I don't buy into that motivation personally. Secondly, I am deeply opposed to the actual implementation of Zionism, as it happened and continues to play out. I deplore the suffering it has caused, and continues to cause to Palestinians, and make no bones about accusing the perpetrators, whom I would also like to see face justice. If you think that makes me "a Zionist"... I don't know what to say. Simplistic hardly gets close.

                        I completely agree that Palestinians have suffered far more at the hands of the Israeli state than vice versa; that the military might and killing of civilians is highly asymmetrical. And I deplore that.

                        I have never once implied that the wrongs "stopped". You put those words in my mouth.

                        I know what I wrote, and stand by it. If you choose to read it through a distorting lens of assumptions and stereotypes, I cannot do anything about that.

                        1. GNU SedGawk

                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                          That seems incoherent.

                          I honestly don't understand your point about your family history, and how that relates to an colonial ideology as agreed by the imperial powers decades prior to the committal of those crimes against humanity.

                          Perhaps you be kind enough to spell it out since you seem to be saying

                          "The people of western Europe committed terrible crimes against my family, so I can understand a desire to commit terrible crimes against people in western Asia who never met my family, so I could kill them, steal their home, and be safe from the people of Western Europe" - I Don't agree with the implementation, they should have been killed more gently.. /s

                          Indeed people such as Norman Finkelstein and Hajo Mayer seem to find it morally offensive to use the suffering and martyrdom of the people destroyed, to evoke sympathy for the Zionist State Terrorist group.

                          Zionism as it exists, as it was described is explicitly a colonial ideology founded on the violent dispossession of another people, it was conceived as such, planned as such, implemented as such.

                          Perhaps you would be kind enough to share your definition of this Zionism which lost its way in implementation.

                          Since Jabotinsky laid down the template <blockquote>

                          His influence on Israeli politics is profound through his closest protégé Menachem Begin's administration (1977–1983), consolidating the domination of Israeli politics by the right-wing Likud party; and through the administrations (1996–1999, 2009–2021) of Likud's leader (1993–1999, 2005–) Benjamin Netanyahu, the son of his former personal secretary and historian, Benzion Netanyahu.

                          </blockquote> "Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach."[1] The only solution to achieve peace and a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, he argued, would be for Jews to first establish a strong Jewish state, which would eventually prompt the Arabs to "drop their extremist leaders, whose watchword is ‘never!’ and pass the leadership to the moderate groups, who will approach us with a proposal that we should both agree to mutual concessions."

                          It's clear exactly what was contemplated, as it was effected remarkably faithfully to the plan.

                          1. LionelB Silver badge

                            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                            "Perhaps you be kind enough to spell it out since you seem to be saying... <some ludicrous stuff>"

                            No, I don't "seem to be saying" that, except in your head. What I am saying is that, given two thousand years of persecution (which my own family experienced first-hand), it is hardly surprising that some European Jews, or Jews of European descent, might well find the idea of a geographical safe-haven attractive. I have made it quite clear that (1) I do not personally subscribe to this idea, and that (2) I deplore the implementation of this idea, its disastrous realisation in practice -- i.e., the occupation of a territory already occupied by other people, and the subsequent brutal oppression of those people.

                            I don't see how I can be clearer than that.

                            1. GNU SedGawk

                              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                              Zionism is not geographical safe-haven.

                              America was a geographical safe-haven indeed thousands of people left Europe for America. Moving to America as geographical safe-haven was not Zionism.

                              You cannot genuinely cast Zionism as this fisher price conception when the foundational documents of Zionism explicitly describe " We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

                              Where is the bit about refugee and safety - it's clearly about dispossessing the people of that land and stealing the country.

                              1. LionelB Silver badge

                                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                Again you wilfully misinterpret me. Zionism was motivated by the idea of a geographical safe haven. Zionism is the disastrous and inhumane implementation of that idea which I spoke of. Despite the outcome, the primary motivation behind Zionism was hardly to randomly dispossess a people and steal their country; now that's a Fisher-Price notion if ever there was one:

                                Scene - a bar in the shtetl...

                                Jew 1: Hey, let's go and dispossess some bunch of people in the Middle East!

                                Jew 2: Why'd we wanna do that?

                                Jew 1: Oh, y'know, like why not?

                                Jew 2: Yeah, cool, let's do it.

                                1. GNU SedGawk

                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                  <blockquote>

                                  Again you wilfully misinterpret me.

                                  Zionism was motivated by the idea of a geographical safe haven. Zionism is the disastrous and inhumane implementation of that idea which I spoke of.

                                  </blockquote>

                                  I disagree with you, you are attempting sophistry and your argument is flawed.

                                  Zionism is explicitly conceived as a anti Palestinian racism, a desire to dispossess a people by a explicitly racist appeal to an imperial power supporting a colonizing venture. You cannot conflate a anodyne and unobjectionable desire for generalised safety in the diaspora with the desire to constitute a majority in a given geographical area in flagrant disregard of the existence of humans living there.

                                  <blockquote>

                                  The commission found that "Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase".[18] Nearly 90% of the Palestinian population was emphatically against the entire Zionist program.[18]

                                  The report noted that there is a principle that the wishes of the local population must be taken into account and that there is widespread anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria, and the holy nature of the land to Christians and Moslems as well as Jews must preclude solely Jewish dominion. It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

                                  </blockquote>

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission

                                  indeed the Zionist conception to this day attempts to utterly deny the humanity of the people when it deigns to acknowledge their existence. "A land without people" - not that there were not Palestinians, but that Zionists did not and do not consider them People.

                                  <blockquote>

                                  Despite the outcome, the primary motivation behind Zionism was hardly to randomly dispossess a people and steal their country; now that's a Fisher-Price notion if ever there was one:

                                  </blockquote>

                                  There was nothing random about it, the Zionist conquest of Palestine was a clear headed garrison of the Suez Canal which has no fresh water supplies which was of great importance to Imperial Britain.

                                  An imperial sponsor was required, the Zionist picked Palestine because it allowed using some of the symbolism of Judaism, and Zionism is a flagrantly racist genocidal ideology which sees the Indigenous people as having no humanity, no claim, no rights, and no existence other than as a demographic danger.

                                  <blockquote>

                                  In 1851, correspondence between Lord Stanley, whose father became British Prime Minister the following year, and Benjamin Disraeli, who became Chancellor of the Exchequer alongside him, records Disraeli's proto-Zionist views: "He then unfolded a plan of restoring the nation to Palestine—said the country was admirably suited for them—the financiers all over Europe might help—the Porte is weak—the Turks/holders of property could be bought out—this, he said, was the object of his life..." Coningsby was merely a feelermy views were not fully developed at that time—since then all I have written has been for one purpose. The man who should restore the Hebrew race to their country would be the Messiah—the real saviour of prophecy!" He did not add formally that he aspired to play this part, but it was evidently implied. He thought very highly of the capabilities of the country, and hinted that his chief object in acquiring power here would be to promote the return".[22][23] 26 years later, Disraeli wrote in his article entitled "The Jewish Question is the Oriental Quest" (1877) that within fifty years, a nation of one million Jews would reside in Palestine under the guidance of the British.

                                  </blockquote>

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

                                  So a hundred years prior to the Zionist State Terrorist group campaign of murder - it looks like an genocide is contemplated to dispossess the people living there in Britain's imperial aim.

                                  <blockquote>According to the author Nadim Rouhana, “the essence of the encounter therefore took place between a group of people living in their homeland and a group of people who arrived from other parts of the world guided by an ideology that claimed the same homeland as exclusively theirs.”[8] Zionism in Rouhana's eye revolved around a system of exclusion in which Zionist arrived and stole the lands they resided on.

                                  </blockquote>

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission

                                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                    "I disagree with you, you are attempting sophistry and your argument is flawed."

                                    Okay, so it seems that you actually agree with the caricature I presented. Bizarre.

                                2. L King

                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                  I disagree. The problem was not Zionism and is not Zionism, it was British perfidy and the appeasement and elevation of the antisemitic Hajj Amin al Husseinii by Herbert Samuel, albeit on the bad advice of Ronald Storrs. Amin, who flunked out of Al Azhar University after 1 year, having barely attended classes was unqualified for any clerical post let alone one that implied central leadership, and was 4th runner up in terms of local preferences. He had estabilished his negative credentials the previous year by inciting anti-Jewish riots, yet Storrs convinced Samuel that a position of responsibility would moderate his views, and Hajj Amin promised to keep the situation tranquil.

                                  Didn't work in the Mandate and didn't work later on in Czechoslovakia. The Mufti used his post for graft, collecting funds internationally to refurbish al Aqsa that were never used and terrorizing his fellow Arabs for protection money, eventually putting several of his rivals to death and using al-Aqsa as a torture chamber, no doubt a terrifying experience for a believer let alone anyone else.

                                  Had Samuel appointed an actual moderate, for example a member of the Hussini's main rivals from the Nashishibi clan, things might have gone better. Ben-Gurion in his book "My Talks With Arab Leaders" discusses this. In the mid 1930s he had various discussions with the leading Arab clans but Hajj Amin and the Husseinis weren\t interested. As the brother-in-law to Jamal Husseini, Musa Alami explained, Hajj Amin was already in the pocket of the Nazis.

                                  I take it your mock conversation is a joke. What probably went on was something like this:

                                  Jew 1: We gotta get out of this place. Pogroms, beatings, the robberies, the rapes.

                                  Jew 2: Where to?

                                  Jew 1: Home to where we came from, Eretz Yisrael.

                                  Jew 2: But we've lived in North Africa and Iraq for thousands of years. We'll be all alone.

                                  Jew 1: I have a hunch the Ashkenazis will be showing up too. We've been sending money to Jerusalem and Safed and Tiveria to support poor Jews for centuries. It's time we sent ourselves.

                                  You can't appease haters like GNU SedAwk by downplaying your identity in order to gain a scintilla of their acceptance. As you've already seen, no matter what they will try and twist your words to fit their hate filled narrative.

                                  1. GNU SedGawk

                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                    Zionism is Anti Palestinian racism and a colonial enterprise as described by the Zionists.

                                    A racist doctrine which allows a bunch of eastern European racists to be of use to the imperial powers, explicitly founded on the dispossession of a bunch of brown people.

                                    <blockquote>

                                    “A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing.”

                                    </blockquote>

                                    https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/zionism-is-not-colonialism-just-jewish-self-determination/

                                    <blockquote>

                                    I disagree. The problem was not Zionism and is not Zionism, it was British perfidy and the appeasement and elevation of the antisemitic Hajj Amin al Husseinii by Herbert Samuel, albeit on the bad advice of Ronald Storrs.</blockquote>The Zionist State Terrorist group had the Balfour declaration and had Imperial Britain occupy another country to gift it to the Zionist State Terrorists. Samuel was a British Zionist, appointed by the invading Imperial Britain.

                                    Let me quote you the words of Polish Atheist Zionist Terrorist Ben-Gurion.

                                    <blockquote>"We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? Who would accept that?" - David Ben-Gurion, The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

                                    </blockquote>

                                    Or more explicitly

                                    <blockquote>

                                    Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :

                                    "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652)

                                    </blockquote>

                                    [snip] tedious hasbara.

                                  2. LionelB Silver badge

                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                    "I take it your mock conversation is a joke. What probably went on was something like this: ..."

                                    Yes, it certainly was a joke. No doubt the conversation would have been much more like your version.

                                    "You can't appease haters like GNU SedAwk by downplaying your identity in order to gain a scintilla of their acceptance. As you've already seen, no matter what they will try and twist your words to fit their hate filled narrative."

                                    I'm not downplaying my identity. I am very comfortable with my identity as a non-Zionist Jew who, while understanding the original motivations behind the Zionist movement, finds the policies and actions of the Israeli state towards the Palestinian people abhorrent.

                                    And no, I am not attempting to appease GNU SedAwk (why would I do that? I have no need nor desire for their approbation) - although I certainly seem to be causing them some serious cognitive dissonance by failing to conform to their twisted black-and-white worldview.

                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                      "some serious cognitive dissonance"

                                      Your position is incoherent, Zionism is explicitly a colonial ideology founded on the intention of killing people and stealing their homes.

                                      You make a nebulous reference to implementation and motivation, without any meaningful attempt to situate that in context with Zionist writings, which all clearly describe a colonizing venture meant to viloently disposess the people living in Palestine. Over and over again.

                                      <blockquote>

                                      As mentioned, the leaders of the Zionist movement spoke more openly

                                      about dispossessing and exiling the locals. Isaac Rolf, a leading German

                                      Zionist rabbi, called for the expulsion of the locals from the land:

                                      For the time being we only talk on settlement and only on settlement

                                      and this is indeed our near aim. We talk only on that. But it must

                                      be clear as “England is only for the English, Egypt for the Egyptians,

                                      Judea is for the Jews.” In our land there is only room for us. We will

                                      say to the Arabs: move, and if they disagree, if they resist by force—we

                                      will force them to move, we will hit them on their heads and force

                                      them to move.1

                                      </blockquote>

                                      geographical refuge still not making an appearance

                                      <blockquote>

                                      The rela-

                                      tionship between Zionism and the British developed differently, but at the

                                      core was a similar ambivalence. Above all, it was British military might that

                                      enabled the “return” of the Jews to Palestine and of the Basel Mission to

                                      “the pure land of God.”

                                      One of the main arguments against any attempt to examine Zionism as

                                      a colonialist phenomenon is that Zionism cannot be colonialist because

                                      there is no recognized mother country or metropole. The same is true

                                      for the Basel Mission, as we have seen. Indeed, the particularism of both,

                                      namely, their satellite status compared with ordinary colonies, is in the

                                      complex way their relationship developed with Britain. The Jewish national

                                      homeland was built and survived due to British imperial support. Had Lon-

                                      don wished otherwise, the Jewish state would have been a fait accompli

                                      in 1917—or it would not have come into being at all. The strategy finally

                                      adopted by Britain was to endorse the slow construction of a Jewish com-

                                      munity in Palestine, with the hope that it could be integrated into a new

                                      Anglo-Arab Middle Eastern political system

                                      </blockquote>

                                      https://watermark.silverchair.com/SAQ107-04-01PappeFpp.pdf

                                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                        TL;DR

                                        1. GNU SedGawk

                                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                          Nobody other than you seriously suggest Zionist is not a colonial venture, least of all Zionists.

                                          Hasbarists now..

                                          1. LionelB Silver badge

                                            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                            I did not suggest Zionism was not a colonial venture. Again you put words in my mouth. I did observe that there were motivations besides pure colonialism - specifically, the desire for a safe haven for Jews against persecution in Europe. Nobody other than you seriously denies this.

                                            I feel your pain in failing to pigeonhole me; simplistic stereotypes, cliched sloganeering and cheap insults are no doubt comforting. But I am simply not the evil bogeyman you so desperately seem to need me to be.

                                            Perhaps if you can come to terms with this, we could have a discussion about the most pressing issue of all: how to actually achieve a peaceful and equitable solution. We are, surely, in agreement that this should happen as quickly as possible. And if one thing is certain, it's that that objective will not be achieved by name-calling and finger-pointing.

                                            1. GNU SedGawk

                                              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                              Despite the attempts to cast reasoned and evidenced rejection of your hasbara as "implistic stereotypes, cliched sloganeering ", again you're attempting to legitimate Zionism again by rhetorically linking a colonial ideology with "the desire for a safe haven for Jews against persecution in Europe".

                                              It's manifestly dishonest.

                                              "we could have a discussion about the most pressing issue of all: how to actually achieve a peaceful and equitable solution."

                                              Dismantling the apartheid, issue Palestinian Passports to all people between River and Sea, the 94% of Palestine to return to the owners, or compensation at fair market value, the implementation of the Right of Return.

                                              Let's be practical, the Apartheid regime will be supported by the worlds imperial powers until it collapses from it's internal contradictions. It's unlikely that a military solution will be found, because the weakness of the Zionist Start Terrorist group, is the flagrant contempt for the Rule of Law inherent in all organized criminal enterprises.

                                              The terms of the surrender to reality are academic, the Zionist State will never willing extend equal rights to the Palestinian people, it's simply foreign to the conception of Zionism as a means of dispossessing a people.

                                              1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                So... name-calling and finger-pointing, with a side-serving of defeatism. That's definitely going to work.

                                                1. GNU SedGawk

                                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                  Oh please, what do you seriously expect?

                                                  The answer is the massively stronger Zionist State Terrorist group has to obey international law and stop murdering the defenceless civilian population of Palestine.

                                                  It's the worlds simplest issue, the only issue of substance being that applying international law dismantles an apartheid state backed by the worlds imperial powers and advantages a bunch of poor brown people.

                                                  I'm not remotely defeatist, but its a fantasy that a colonial ideology is going to voluntary disavow the foundation doctrine of the terrorist group which has dispossessed, occupied and murdered Palestinians.

                                                  What do you propose instead, the Palestinians agree to die in a manner more pleasing to Zionists?

                                                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                    "I'm not remotely defeatist..."

                                                    Seriously?

                                                    By your account, the odious Apartheid regime is still in power in South Africa (my home country, as it happens), because racist colonial regimes never "disavow their foundational doctrines", yadda yadda.

                                                    Change can happen. But not by name-calling, finger-pointing and defeatism.

                                                    Hint: we're not talking about "voluntary" relinquishment of power. The S. African Apartheid regime (which for decades effectively had Western backing) was defeated ultimately by the enormous international and economic pressure brought to bear on them - pressure largely created and maintained by the ANC and anti-apartheid movements, who mobilised the moral high-ground and turned apartheid S. Africa into a pariah. The ANC, it's worth mentioning, achieved this through unity and solidarity with the oppressed people of S. Africa, through strong and consistent leadership and savvy diplomacy, through immense individual courage and sacrifice, and an armed resistance which targeted infrastructure and the state military/police apparatus (not civilians!) The Apartheid regime crumbled ultimately because "their" country had become ungovernable and economically unviable, to a point which even its own leadership had to concede.

                                                    Change can happen.

                                                                                1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                                  Firmly with the Palestinian people, without a trace of sympathy for the Zionist State Terrorist Group.

                                                                                  Zionist State Terrorist Group choose to occupy Palestine, kidnap Palestinian children as human shields, whilst the encircled blockaded population of Gaza have no shelters, no means of escape, and a population of which 50% is under 18. Every attack on Gaza is defacto a war crime, a deliberate targetting of a civilian population the majority of which are children.

                                                                                  Ramallah, May 19, 2022—Israeli soldiers used a 16-year-old Palestinian girl as a human shield in front of an Israeli military vehicle while deployed in the northern occupied West Bank city of Jenin last week.
                                                                                  https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_palestinian_girl_as_a_human_shield_in_jenin Which is an unbroken thread of Zionist Terror which you conspicuously fail to condemn in your faux concern for human rights,
                                                                                  A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields
                                                                                  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

                                                                                  No there is no equivalence between the occupier and the oppressed, the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people don't exist according to a balance with the Zionist State Terrorist group Hasbara.

                                                                                  My soul is fine, I'm not arguing "sympathy" with Zionism, and "civilians" with a settler colonial genocidal movement.

                                                                                  Your hasbara is pitiful, each and every attempt you've made has been demolished, leaving you to plead that the oppressors are really the victims, with their bomb shelter and two ton bombs raining down on a defenceless people. The savage Palestinians dare to fight back.. Face it Zionism has failed, with the collapse of Zionist State ongoing and visible to all.

                                                                                  An average Zionist State high command lasts only six months, so enjoy your rhetoric, the arc of history bends towards Justice, regardless of hasbara.

                                                                                  Palestine will be free from the river to the sea, Zionist State Terrorists will face the ICC.

                                                                                  I think we can agree we are not going to agree. your hasbara is tedious, and you are not arguing in good faith.

                                                                                  I've indulged your nonsense sufficiently now.

                                                                          1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                            "Firstly Palestinians are a defenceless population living under eight decades of apartheid and settler colonial occupation with periodic massacres of children and the elderly."

                                                                            Ditto black S. Africans pre-liberation.

                                                                            "The people have wanted nothing more than this racist nightmare to end, and it could end anytime the oppressor chooses, ..."

                                                                            Ditto black S. Africans pre-liberation.

                                                                            "... but the oppressed cannot force that, ..."

                                                                            Yet black S. Africans did exactly that.

                                                                            "Why don't you celebrate the heroics of the non-violent hunger strikers against detention without trial ..."

                                                                            I'm happy to do that. Why do you think I wouldn't be?

                                                                            "... rather than complaining that they fight with the only weapons that they possess."

                                                                            I'm absolutely fine with them fighting back with any weapons they posses - but not with the targeting of civilians, as that is both morally repugnant, futile, and plays into the hands of the oppressor.

                                                                            "Or treat them like Ukraine, ... "

                                                                            I'm happy to treat them like Ukraine if they - like the ANC in S. Africa before - engage in an armed struggle with the full support of their own people (which I suspect they would have, but it is hard to tell because of the fragmented leadership) and, crucially, eschew attacks on civilians. (I did not support the IRA or ETA for those reasons: neither group, unlike the ANC, had the full backing of their own constituencies, and both attacked civilians.)

                                                                            "... and then you can talk out of your neck about your principles while your sympathies lie with the oppressor but never the oppressed."

                                                                            My sympathies lie entirely with the oppressed. (I realise that doesn't suit your narrative.)

                                                                            "It's obscene that you cannot see simply, they resist and die more slowly or don't resist and die quickly."

                                                                            I fully support their resistance.

                                                                            "These people in resisting are facing almost certain death with massive reprisals against their entire families commonplace."

                                                                            Ditto pre-liberation S. Africa.

                                                                            "You've not got a word to say about these people who are not involved but are just as likely to be the victims of a pogrom one night, or a two ton bomb the next."

                                                                            They have my full sympathy, and I absolutely support their right to resist.

                                                                            "If you had any decency in you, you'd see the only way is to dissolve the madness. Equal rights for all, and the application of international law, a constitution based on the UN declaration of human rights, and mass prosecutions of the Zionist State Terrorist high command and their proxies."

                                                                            Agreed 100% (I guess that makes me decent, then?)

                                                                            "There are monstrous crimes committed on a daily basis under the eyes of the world which shame humanity, ... "

                                                                            This was the case too for pre-liberation S. Africa.

                                                                            "... and we will one day see these criminals and terrorists in the dock, reviled as the monsters they've been so often denounced as."

                                                                            Interestingly, S. Africa took a somewhat different route post-Apartheid, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I'm ambivalent about that. Personally, I would like to have seen mass prosecutions of the Apartheid regime leadership, apparatchiks and murderers. The TRC was a choice of the people, which I respect; but the idea was that those who spurned the TRC (and there were many, including Botha) would be held to account. Sadly, that never really happened. I rather doubt that a TRC could work in Palestine, but I could be wrong.

                                                                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                        No, I don't think it's fine for anyone to use hostages/human shields, and I also don't think it's fine for anyone to put non-combatants at risk to life and limb. Still sickening, no matter who does it, and still sickening to condone it or try to justify it..

                                                                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                    "Zionist State will collapse from within"

                                                                    You keep saying that. It is a pipe-dream.

                                                                    "There are no civilians in Zionist State"

                                                                    If you mean within the geographical boundaries (and I cannot think what else you might mean), then you are saying that children and people with no connection to, or support for the state (many of whom will in fact be Palestinians) are fair game. That is sickening, especially so in light of the scant regard for civilian lives by the Israeli military. You are indeed stooping to their level. I will not engage further with you.

                                                            1. GNU SedGawk

                                                              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                              SA is not Zionist State - I note you have ignored every actual point I made about international law.

                                                              Fundamentally you cannot use the SA experience as simply put Zionist State has learned the lessons.

                                                              It doesn't seek to rule over Palestinians but to usurp them, this fundamental difference cannot be ignored.

                                                              https://mondoweiss.net/2022/08/the-south-african-solution-will-not-work-in-palestine/

                                                              I mentioned arming the Palestinian resistance, which you don't seem to have responded to.

                                                              I also mentioned the application of international law, which you also describe as "voluminous TL;DR diatribes".

                                                              I note that in much tedious correspondence, you are unable to respond to a point, once your fact free bilge has been demolished.

                                                              You don't respond to questions, and are simply sea-lioning without a concrete proposal - yet I note you traduce the heroic resistance to Zionist State Terror as terror tactics.

                                                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                        I don't think it's correct to suggest SA willingly renounced apartheid, ...

                                                        That's why I did not suggest that.

                                                        ... the ANC fought it to a standstill and the external commercial boycott near bankrupted the country. I accept that the Botha government did make strides towards the ANC, ...

                                                        It wasn't the Botha government so much as the De Klerk government. Botha's regime was perhaps the most brutal of the Apartheid era, and despite some grudging concessions, "Die Groot Krokodil" remained unrepentant until his death.

                                                        ... and ended Apartheid - which perhaps reflects your point that it was unwillingly

                                                        That was my entire point.

                                                        Your screed about SA Jews is not relevant to my point. Like S. African (non-Afrikaner) "whites" in general, some were pro-Apartheid; perhaps more (including my family) most definitely were not. There were Jews in the senior ranks of the ANC (e.g., Dennis Goldberg).

                                                        And despite your defeatism and apologia, I still believe the South African example should offer hope that a just settlement can be achieved by the Palestinians.

                                                        Alone in the world, the youngers in Zionist State poll as more right wing than the elders, so I think it will collapse from within while the worlds imperial powers are still defending the rights of Zionist State to murder Palestinians

                                                        Personally, I doubt sitting around waiting for that to happen is the most effective strategy.

                                                                              1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                                "... of making the Terrorists cower in their shelters ..."

                                                                                Aye, those despicable cowering Terrorist children.

                                                                                "... I offer you my condolences for the lack of your soul."

                                                                                How's yours? (See above).

                                                                        1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                          Firstly Palestinians are a defenceless population living under eight decades of apartheid and settler colonial occupation with periodic massacres of children and the elderly.

                                                                          The people have wanted nothing more than this racist nightmare to end, and it could end anytime the oppressor chooses, but the oppressed cannot force that, and so resists with what means are available, pioneering the 100 day plus hunger strike.

                                                                          Why don't you celebrate the heroics of the non-violent hunger strikers against detention without trial rather than complaining that they fight with the only weapons that they possess. Or treat them like Ukraine, and then you can talk out of your neck about your principles while your sympathies lie with the oppressor but never the oppressed.

                                                                          The resistance have rifles, limited ammunition, and unguided rockets, which unless you provide guidance systems, a question you've dodged three time now, you de-facto prohibit the use of.

                                                                          Frankly some poor sod with a rifle is no match for a group of well trained Zionist State Terrorists, the rockets are the only thing that seems to work in that it imposes an economic cost on Zionist State as the sole deterrent to the murder of the civilian population.

                                                                          It's obscene that you cannot see simply, they resist and die more slowly or don't resist and die quickly.

                                                                          These people in resisting are facing almost certain death with massive reprisals against their entire families commonplace. You've not got a word to say about these people who are not involved but are just as likely to be the victims of a pogrom one night, or a two ton bomb the next.

                                                                          If you had any decency in you, you'd see the only way is to dissolve the madness. Equal rights for all, and the application of international law, a constitution based on the UN declaration of human rights, and mass prosecutions of the Zionist State Terrorist high command and their proxies.

                                                                          There are monstrous crimes committed on a daily basis under the eyes of the world which shame humanity, and we will one day see these criminals and terrorists in the dock, reviled as the monsters they've been so often denounced as.

                                                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                      Thats sickening but

                                                                      Of course if a civilian airport is used for the transport of armaments, it is de facto no longer a civilian airport - it is a military airport (with a civilian human shield).
                                                                      thats fine /s

                                                                1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                  "Fundamentally you cannot use the SA experience as simply put Zionist State has learned the lessons."

                                                                  You think the SA Apartheid regime had not "learned the lessons"!?

                                                                  Again you ignore what I said twice now - Zionist State doesn't admit its apartheid nature.

                                                                  They invented many of those "lessons" (including divide-and-rule via attempts to ferment and exploit tribalism, disenfranchisement via the "homelands" system, and on and on...
                                                                  The genocidal settler colonialism of the Zionist State Terrorist group is utterly different from a desire to rule over a subject population. With the first weapon being rhetoric - as I note you don't respond to any reasoned argument, you just flit from non-sequitor to insult.

                                                                  If you think that they were in any way you are sadly mistaken. That is simply apologia.
                                                                  less formidable opponent again utterly misrepresenting my words and the point to allow you to knock down a strawman.

                                                                  I actually said

                                                                  South Africa (SA) is not a useful comparison to Zionist State.

                                                                  Firstly SA never denied it was an apartheid regime, the first weapon in the Zionist arsenal is rhetoric.

                                                                  Secondly the world at large sees black people as humans, the history of African Slavery made it considerably easier to frame the situation in Apartheid SA as an injustice done to an oppressed people.

                                                                  As this thread show, the general view seems to be that the Palestinian people are at fault for not allowing themselves to be murdered quietly, there is none of the widespread support for SA, simply because Palestinians (who ironically include a significant black population unsurprisingly given the proximity to North Africa. ) have been dehumanized thoroughly in the eyes of the contributors visible on the thread.

                                                                  Of course it would be wholly simplistic to claim that the SA experience is a perfect parallel with the Palestinian one; that is why I said that it should stand as an inspiration (as opposed, say, to a "textbook").

                                                                  An inspiration of what? The blunt facts are that Zionist State will collapse from within as the Racists in Europe and the US don't see Palestinians as human, a sufficiently large percentage of Europe and US see Black Africans as human, such that support for Apartheid SA became untenable - that point has not been reached and I personally think the collapse of the Zionist State from internal contradictions based on the racist nature of the society and the inherent cowardice of the settler colony.

                                                                  "yet I note you traduce the heroic resistance to Zionist State Terror as terror tactics."

                                                                  You "note" that incorrectly. I have in fact not mentioned "terror tactics" once. That is in your head - I guess a consequence of your simplistic stereotyping of me.
                                                                  Hasbara

                                                                  You wrote

                                                                  The fact that some opposition to Israeli state aggression against Palestinians uses deplorable terror tactics does not, however, excuse vile behaviour by the Israeli state.
                                                                  So again casting the legitimate armed resistance to Zionist State Terrorism as "terror tactics" - try someone else with that trick..

                                                                  You want my thoughts on "terror tactics"? Okay; I remarked of the ANC that they explicitly eschewed the targeting of civilians. They were thus able to say, to their opponent and to the world: "As much as you unleash terror against us, we shall not stoop to your level".
                                                                  There are no civilians in Zionist State, it's a Terrorist settler colony who murder children, the elderly, the disabled, bomb hospitals, schools, target children explicitly, bomb civilian infrastructure - they are terrorists, and should you equip the resistance with precision targetting for their artillery, a proposal you ignored completely, then and only then, can you speak of a distinction between targets. Fucking disgusting to suggest "civilians" when speaking of the terrorist campaign to impose apartheid on the survivors of the Genocide and Ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

                                                                  Margaret Thatcher,
                                                                  fuck the old dead racist arsonist, may she rot in pieces.

                                                                  A problem in the Palestinian situation is the splintered nature of the resistance (encouraged and exploited to the hilt, of course, by the Israeli state - and straight out of the Apartheid playbook, as it happens);
                                                                  You are pretending what the Palestinians do has some impact politically when the reality was this was a fait acompli first by Britain, then Armed by USSR, finally arms, and political cover from the US.

                                                                  What did you want them to do? March in straight lines. that would have made some difference. The Uselessness of the Palestinians political leadership is well documented, but frankly it doesn't make any difference.

                                                                  1919, Balfour to Curzon‘The weak point of our position is of course that in the case of Palestine we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination.’

                                                                  https://balfourproject.org/a-few-quotes/

                                                                  1922 Meeting at Balfour’s home in London. Foreign Secretary Balfour and Prime Minister Lloyd George confirm verbally to Weizmann that ‘by the Declaration they always meant an eventual Jewish state’. Colonial Secretary, Churchill [responsible for Palestine] also present at the meeting when Lloyd George tells Churchill that ‘we’ must not allow such a thing as representative government to happen in Palestine. Sahar Huneidi, A Broken Trust p 59

                                                                  But sure it's the Palestinians being unable to talk the racists round that are at fault.

                                                                  so some Palestinian groups do target civilians, others do not.

                                                                  There are no civilians in the Zionist State Terrorist group, they are settlers who live on stolen land, murdering and attacking people on a daily basis. The civilian population are the Palestinian people under occupation by the Zionist State Terrorist group. Hey is that you equivocating again between the Terrorist group and the civilian population under occupation. Given the recent murder of 17 children by the Zionist State Terrorist group purely for electoral advantage, it's truly repulsive to attempt to cast the resistance as "targetting civillans" when the reality is unguided rockets (will you support supplying them with guided systems so they can attack military establishments ) and single men armed with rifles attempting to fend off overwhelming odds of well armed, well supported team of Terrorists with bullet proof clothing and tactical gear.

                                                                  You also ignore the Zionist State Terrorist group explicitly targets children, and pregnant women with the Knesset cheerleading this

                                                                  On Monday Shaked quoted this on her Facebook page: "Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

                                                                  "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, "they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists," Shaked added.

                                                                  A day before Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khudair was kidnapped and burned alive allegedly by six Israeli Jewish youths, Shaked published on Facebook a call for genocide of the Palestinians.

                                                                  Zionist State will collapse from within, and the day before it happens the US will be running diplomatic cover, but face it, it's happening already, the Palestinians are known to everybody, Shamir, Ben-Gurion, Sharon, their crimes are infamous and they will be long forgotten when Palestinians are liberated from their oppressors.

                                                          1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                            Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                            I don't know... all I am seeing from you are voluminous TL;DR diatribes about all the reasons why gaining a just settlement for the Palestinian people will be hard to achieve. Of course it will be hard! But waiting around for the Israeli state to collapse of its own accord? Simply not going to happen.

                                                            The Zionists may have the Palestinians outgunned but the Palestinians are stronger morally, and legally.

                                                            The same, in its context, was true of S. Africa. And yet the ANC organised an effective,and ultimately successful resistance. I believe that should stand as an inspiration to the Palestinian struggle.

                                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                      South Africa (SA) is not a useful comparison to Zionist State.

                                                      Firstly SA never denied it was an apartheid regime, the first weapon in the Zionist arsenal is rhetoric.

                                                      Secondly the world at large sees black people as humans, the history of African Slavery made it considerably easier to frame the situation in Apartheid SA as an injustice done to an oppressed people.

                                                      As this thread show, the general view seems to be that the Palestinian people are at fault for not allowing themselves to be murdered quietly, there is none of the widespread support for SA, simply because Palestinians (who ironically include a significant black population unsurprisingly given the proximity to North Africa. ) have been dehumanized thoroughly in the eyes of the contributors visible on the thread.

                                                      Zionist State enemy is Zionist State, the contradictions inherent to a genocide regime of settler colonialism are what will bring Zionist State down from the inside.

                                                      The armed resistance has steadily pushed the cost of the occupation higher, meaning that the cost of living in the more desirable parts of the Zionist State Terrorist group garrisons are increasing out of reach https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1656849921-israelis-demonstrate-against-climbing-cost-of-living

                                                      The Settler colony has learned from SA and has spent significant resources attempted to make BDS (peaceful struggle) as demonized as armed struggle.

                                                      Interestingly some of the most rabid Zionist State Terrorists left SA once they were no longer permitted to oppress people at home,

                                                      <blockquote>More than 20,000 South African Jews have moved to Palestine since the 1920s and Israel since 1948. The most famous was Aubrey Solomon, who changed his name to Abba Eban and became a prominent Israeli politician. Many of them live in the wealthy South African colony of Savyon, built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of al-‘Abbasiyah, whose Palestinian population was expelled during the 1948 Zionist conquest of Palestine.

                                                      South African Jews continue to move to Palestine, where some consider Israel a safer settler colony for white people than post-apartheid South Africa.

                                                      It is unclear, however, how many white Afrikaner Pentecostal Protestant converts to Judaism are among them. But a recent report in the Haaretz newspaper claimed that such converts had been arriving in Israel in increasing numbers since the end of apartheid in South Africa in the mid-1990s.

                                                      </blockquote>

                                                      https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-south-africa-home-white-colonialists

                                                      I don't think it's correct to suggest SA willingly renounced apartheid, the ANC fought it to a standstill and the external commercial boycott near bankrupted the country. I accept that the Botha government did make strides towards the ANC, and ended Apartheid - which perhaps reflects your point that it was unwillingly <blockquote>

                                                      In a rare public statement during his 1998 court battle, an unreconstructed Botha showed his customary obduracy: "I stand with all those who executed lawful government commands in our struggle against the revolutionary communist onslaught against our country ... I am not prepared to apologise for actions which I took to remove (sic) racial discrimination in this country [or] for lawful actions of my government in its struggle to curb the violent onslaught."</blockquote>

                                                      Zionist State by contrast is fundamentally a genocidal ideology, and they will ramp up the murder until the Zionist State collapses and the "great crocodile" will find that many others opposed Zionism all along.. /s

                                                      The prime imperial sponsors are now engaged in Military alliances with Zionist State in flagrant defiance of international obligation under the various treaties prohibiting genocide, and apartheid and the other crimes against humanity committed by the Zionist State Terrorist group, including the recent bombing of a civilian airport, the assignation of a clearly marked unarmed American Journalist.

                                                      Until that situation reverses external pressure is unlikely to shift the situation, but internally the state is collapsing and that trend will only accelerate.

                                                      Alone in the world, the youngers in Zionist State poll as more right wing than the elders, so I think it will collapse from within while the worlds imperial powers are still defending the rights of Zionist State to murder Palestinians

                                                                                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                                    And I yours.

                                                                                    The saddest thing is I actually agree with you on most (but not all) aspects of the conflict, but your desperate need for a bogeyman has closed your ears and your mind to that. A microcosm of the situation, perhaps.

                                                                                    Goodbye.

                                                                            1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                              Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                              South Africa (SA) is not a useful comparison to Zionist State.

                                                                              Firstly SA never denied it was an apartheid regime, the first weapon in the Zionist arsenal is rhetoric, which you employ with skill, I congratulate you on your rhetorical skill while I condemn you utter lack of integrity and principle.

                                                                              .

                                                                              Again South Africa is not Zionist State - it's simply not a useful comparison, Feinstein suggest that "Israel is WORSE than Apartheid, says former South African MP Andrew Feinstein"

                                                                              https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2021/may/18/israel-is-worse-than-apartheid-says-former-south-african-mp-son-of-holocaust-survivor-palestine-gaza

                                                                              South Africa (SA) is not a useful comparison to Zionist State.

                                                                              Firstly SA never denied it was an apartheid regime, the first weapon in the Zionist arsenal is rhetoric.

                                                                              Secondly The Settler colony has learned from SA and has spent significant resources attempted to make BDS (peaceful struggle) as demonized as armed struggle.

                                                                              Thirdly the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine, it's act of naked terrorism are more brutal than the SA regime, according to South Africans with experience of both systems, including Feinstein, Mandela, Tutu et al.

                                                                              Finally the collapse of SA didn't help the Palestinian people, as the are not held to be living under Apartheid as indeed Zionist State learned to deny the racist nature of the state even while electing Shamir, Sharon and the parade of civillian targeting terroist murderers.

                                                                              That you have the nerve to suggest that the people who resist their murder with unguided rockets, which you try to cast as targeting "civillians".

                                                                              The reality is the Zionist State terrorist group is not harmed physically by the rockets primitive as they are, it's the economic and political ramifications of shutting the cities down, of making the Terrorists cower in their shelters rather than sitting on sofas cheering on two ton bombs dropping on a defenseless population of which over 50% are below the age of 18.

                                                                              That you have expended many words attempting to bind the hands of the oppressed, reflects very poorly on you. Despite your evident skill as a hasbarist, I offer you my condolences for the lack of your soul.

                                                                        1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                          You justified the Zionist State Terrorist group bombing a civilian airport in Syria.

                                                                          I agree, your justification of the actions of the Zionist State Terrorist group are sickening.

                                                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                      There are no civilians in Zionist State, there are simply the occupier and the occupied. The correct term there would be human shield, these terrorists use human shields on their illegal settlements built on stolen Palestinian land in flagrant violation of the Geneva conventions. If you choose to move to an apartheid state to oppress someone else, yes, under international law, you are potentially fair game as an unguided rocket hits your terrorist encampment. You could always not build an illegal settlement on stolen land, and put children and people with no connection to, or support for the state on an illegal settlement built on stolen Palestinian land in flagrant violation of the Geneva conventions.

                                                                      If you mean within the geographical boundaries (and I cannot think what else you might mean) [snip outrageous smear]

                                                                      I am saying -

                                                                      it's truly repulsive to attempt to cast the resistance as "targetting civilians" when the reality is unguided rockets (will you support supplying them with guided systems so they can attack military establishments ) and single men armed with rifles attempting to fend off overwhelming odds of well armed, well supported team of Terrorists with bullet proof clothing and tactical gear.

                                                                      In other words it's a straw man attempting to smear resistance fighters as terrorists for using unguided rockets when the Two ton bombs are dropped on an actual civilian population with precision guidance and full knowledge of the population registry.

                                                                      "Zionist State will collapse from within" -You keep saying that. It is a pipe-dream.

                                                                      A pipe dream that the Zionist State terrorists fear.

                                                                      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220512-the-curse-of-the-eighth-decade-and-the-end-of-israel/

                                                                      It's inevitable, and starting to happen already, Zionism has failed, Zionist State knows it, and Palestinians know it.

                                                                      I'm all ears for your amazing counter proposal to letting them collapse from within, whilst applying international law, sanctions, boycott of cultural, commercial and military goods and arming the resistance.

                                                                      Let pretend the people of Palestine are Ukrainians /s

                                                              1. LionelB Silver badge

                                                                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                                "Fundamentally you cannot use the SA experience as simply put Zionist State has learned the lessons."

                                                                You think the SA Apartheid regime had not "learned the lessons"!? They invented many of those "lessons" (including divide-and-rule via attempts to ferment and exploit tribalism, disenfranchisement via the "homelands" system, and on and on... If you think that they were in any way a less formidable opponent you are sadly mistaken. That is simply apologia. Of course it would be wholly simplistic to claim that the SA experience is a perfect parallel with the Palestinian one; that is why I said that it should stand as an inspiration (as opposed, say, to a "textbook").

                                                                "yet I note you traduce the heroic resistance to Zionist State Terror as terror tactics."

                                                                You "note" that incorrectly. I have in fact not mentioned "terror tactics" once. That is in your head - I guess a consequence of your simplistic stereotyping of me.

                                                                You want my thoughts on "terror tactics"? Okay; I remarked of the ANC that they explicitly eschewed the targeting of civilians. They were thus able to say, to their opponent and to the world: "As much as you unleash terror against us, we shall not stoop to your level". Margaret Thatcher, famously, tried to paint the ANC as terrorists - famously, she failed. A problem in the Palestinian situation is the splintered nature of the resistance (encouraged and exploited to the hilt, of course, by the Israeli state - and straight out of the Apartheid playbook, as it happens); so some Palestinian groups do target civilians, others do not. A notable strength of the ANC was its unity and single-mindedness of purpose. (There were other SA resistance groups who took a different stance on targeting civilians - they were ultimately marginalised.)

                                                        1. GNU SedGawk

                                                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                                          My point was that SA failed as an Apartheid state partly because they admitted it was an apartheid state, and Zionist State still pretends they are a democracy rather than a terrorist encampment with a human shield and great public relations. Hence the tedious need to actually establish that 1914 was during WW1, Weizmann was given Palestine to bring the US into WW1 ensuring British Victory and the cherry on the cake is Britain was a war time dictatorship fighting a democracy.

                                                          Your screed about SA Jews is not relevant to my point. Like S. African (non-Afrikaner) "whites" in general, some were pro-Apartheid; perhaps more (including my family) most definitely were not. There were Jews in the senior ranks of the ANC (e.g., Dennis Goldberg).

                                                          FWIW every Jewish SA of my acquaintance are people I'm proud to call friends, and non-Zionist anti-racist Jews. For that matter all most every other SA of my acquaintance is a good egg, with several being amongst my favourite people. I must admit some bias towards that community.. That said it's undeniable that some Afrikaans people pretended to be Jews to move to Zionist State, this was widespread throughout the Soviet Union with

                                                          According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics around 30% of immigrants from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s were not Jews
                                                          In other words, some people who understood the mistakes made by the last apartheid state moved to Zionist State and became influential in public relations, most famously Abba Eban who was born as " Aubrey Solomon Meir Eban" in CapeTown,

                                                          As for defeatism, what do you expect exactly, I write to my MP who no doubt has me marked down as a crank at best and an racist at worst, given he is a member of LFI.

                                                          The people who are best place to change international pressure are Americans, and they are already doing so, but ultimately Zionist State has started its collapse already.

                                                          The Zionists may have the Palestinians outgunned but the Palestinians are stronger morally, and legally.

                                                          Militarily being the stronger side has its disadvantages and every figleaf the Zionists have hidden behind has been shredded by the naked contempt for human life and international law.

                                                          Which is unsurprising for a terrorist group which twice elected Shamir as Prime Minister of Zionist State

                                                          The basic facts about Yitzhak Shamir cannot really be open to question. During the 1940s, he was one of the leading figures of a right-wing Zionist terrorist group, which had proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany.

                                                          I observe the Boycott, but ultimately you must face facts, people don't care about brown people in general, arabs more specifically and Palestinians least of all.

                                                          The deeply racist idea that Palestinians should carry the sins of Western Europe deserves little rebuttal, but the idea of arming the Palestinian Resistance, demanding a immediate compliance with international law.. These ideas are yet to find wider purchase in the fog of hasbra.

                              2. LionelB Silver badge

                                Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                Also:

                                "Where is the bit about refugee and safety ..."

                                Scattered copiously among all the documents you chose not to quote.

                                " - it's clearly about dispossessing the people of that land and stealing the country."

                                Yes, that cherry-picked (Theodore Herzl) quote is explicitly about dispossession, and it's despicable.

                                "America was a geographical safe-haven indeed thousands of people left Europe for America. Moving to America as geographical safe-haven was not Zionism."

                                No disagreement there.

                                1. GNU SedGawk

                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                  Okay, you quote it, since you clearly can't find it either.

                                  Face facts, Zionism is anti Palestinian Racism, the Zionist State Terrorist group are remarkable faithful to their founding document.

                                  The support of three imperial sponsors has sustained it thus far, but now it has outlived its usefulness to them, and the worlds is shifting to a more just world, and the Apartheid is not sustainable, no matter how often people pretend that Zionism and a desire for geographical safe refuge are remotely related.

                                  Honestly that's such a crock of shit.

                                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                    "Okay, you quote it, since you clearly can't find it either."

                                    Oh, I can blockquote with the best of 'em:

                                    2. In some parts of the world, and particularly in Eastern Europe, the conditions of life of millions of Jews are deplorable. Forming often a congested population, denied the opportunities which would make a healthy development possible, the need of fresh outlets is urgent, both for their own sake and the interests of the population of other races, among whom they dwell.

                                    From the Zionist Organization Statement on Palestine, Paris Peace Conference, February 1919.

                                    And much, much more, if you'd cared to look (clearly you do not).

                                    "Honestly that's such a crock of shit."

                                    I take, as always, descent into abusive language as an admission of an argument lost.

                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                      Nice try - 1919 - after the Balfour declaration and when Weizmann has single handled won Palestine for the Zionists with the promise if US support for WW1, as soon as Asquith is deposed..

                                      But in 1895 they told the truth

                                      <blockquote>

                                      “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” (Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.)

                                      </blockquote>

                                      1972 they tell the same truth unchanged.

                                      <blockquote>

                                      “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” (Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot of July 14, 1972.)

                                      </blockquote>

                                      Literally every statement you make is transparent hasbara to try to equivocate between the two ton bombs of the Zionist State Terrorist Group and the "Terror tactics" of the UN sanction rights of armed resistance against colonization in using some cobbled together rockets to resist their murder.

                                      Your choice of quote is interest in its time - being conspicuously after the Balfour declaration.

                                      <blockquote>

                                      During World War I, at around the same time he was appointed Director of the British Admiralty's laboratories, Weizmann, in a conversation with David Lloyd George, suggested the strategy of the British campaign against the Ottoman Empire. From 1914, "a benevolent goodwill toward the Zionist idea" emerged in Britain when intelligence revealed how the Jewish Question could support imperial interests against the Ottomans.[39]...

                                      On 10 December 1914 at Whitehall, Samuel offered Weizmann a Jewish homeland complete with funded developments. Ecstatic, Weizmann returned to Westminster to arrange a meeting with Balfour, who was also on the War Council. He had first met the Conservatives in 1906, ... leading members of Britain's Jewish community regarded Weizmann's program with distaste, The Future of Palestine, also known as the Samuel Memorandum, was a watershed moment in the Great War and annexation of Palestine....

                                      Weizmann ... with Samuel ... during 1915, but H. H. Asquith, then Prime Minister, would be dead set against upsetting the balance of power on the Middle East. ...but in the Cabinet, to the Samuel Memorandum, it remained implacably opposed with the exception of Lloyd George, an outspoken radical. Edwin Montagu, for example, Samuel's cousin was strenuously opposed. Weizmann did not attend the meeting of Jewry's ruling Conjoint Committee when it met the Zionist leadership on 14 April 1915. ... Zionists however had one goal only, the creation of their own state with British help.

                                      </blockquote>

                                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Weizmann

                                      So the attempt to slide the blame onto the Arab Jews is nicely done, but no cigar this is Eastern European Racists being of use to Western European Racists, have promised it would only disadvantage brown people and who cares about them.

                                      The Zionist Congress was in Basel, the Polish Terrorist Ben-Gurion gives his own explanation.

                                      It was Ukrainian and Russian and Polish Atheist Terrorists which founded Zionism explicitly as a colonial venture, Ben-Gurion's petty criminal career expanded into mass murder and Terrorism.

                                      <blockquote>: "For many of us, anti-Semitic feeling had little to do with our dedication [to Zionism]. I personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution. ... The number of Jews and Poles in the city were roughly equal, about five thousand each. ... Far from being afraid of them, they were rather afraid of us.

                                      </blockquote>

                                      https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

                                2. L King

                                  Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                  Until America closed its doors to Jews fleeing the Holocaust. Then it wasn't safe at all.

                                  1. GNU SedGawk

                                    Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                    <blockquote>“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”

                                    Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

                                    </blockquote>

                                    <blockquote>

                                    If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

                                    David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

                                    </blockquote>

                                    <blockquote>

                                    Even Ben-Gurion Exploited the Holocaust When It Suited Him

                                    No research has been done yet on Ben-Gurion’s relation to the Holocaust during his years as prime minister. But it’s important to note that he had no restraints when it came to rhetorical use of the Holocaust and comparisons with the Nazis.

                                    </blockquote>

                                    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-10-31/ty-article/.premium/even-ben-gurion-exploited-the-holocaust/0000017f-edc7-d3be-ad7f-ffef7d060000

                                    1. L King
                                      FAIL

                                      Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                      Interesting. The remark was made in 1938, not late 1941 when extent of the Holocaust was first known. There were 9 million Jews under threat and at least 1.5 million of them were children.

                                      How many Jewish children did Britain actually save? About 10,000 when the Kindertransport ended at the start of WW II. Nor did the UK allow very many Jews to enter Palestine. Trusting the UK to save Jewish lives was the issue and you proved you could not be trusted.

                                      The fact is BG wasn't given a choice and you Brits didn't give a shit if Jews lived or died. In 1942 there were 770 Jews including 100 children aboard the SS Struma in the Bosphorus. The ship was unseaworthy sat there for 71 days Turkey would have let them transit via rail if the British had said they could go to Palestine, but Lord Moyne refused to issue the necessary authorization. The ship was then fired on by a Soviet submarine and there was 1 survivor.

                                      Saving even a quarter of Jewish children from European antisemitism would have been a major accomplishment. You have Jewish blood on your hands.

                                      1. GNU SedGawk

                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                        The Zionists never gave a shit about the Jewish people.

                                        <blockquote>

                                        Segev shines a blistering spotlight on Ben-Gurion’s European chauvinism. Like many of the Zionist leaders of his time, Ben-Gurion viewed Zionism as a movement that would bring the culture of Europe to the Middle East. “We came here as Europeans,” Ben-Gurion maintained, and there was little room for non-European Jews, let alone Palestinian Arabs, in this vision. When the first major waves of Jewish immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa began to arrive in Israel, many of them forced out of their home countries in response to Israel’s creation, Ben-Gurion saw them as “primitive Jews.” He referred to them as a “substandard generation” and spoke of Jewish North African army and police recruits as “refuse.”

                                        Upon their arrival, these immigrants were housed not in the kibbutzim, where most of the residents were of Eastern or Central European origin, but in ma’abarot, or absorption camps, where conditions were so bad that infant mortality rates were twice that of the rest of the country, according to Segev. Ben-Gurion’s order to the army to save Yemeni immigrants from their “primitiveness” was translated into draconian anti-religious measures that allegedly included requiring religious boys to cut off their sidelocks. It was during this time that what is known as the Yemenite Children Affair also unfolded. Thousands of infants, mainly those born to Yemeni Jews but also those from elsewhere in the Middle East, went missing after being taken for medical care. It was later discovered that many had died without their parents being notified; others were said to have been adopted, again without their biological parents ever knowing.

                                        What made all this possible was the view that Jews from the Islamic world were not the Jews for whom the Jewish state was intended. “The country,” Ben-Gurion wrote, “came into being and did not find the people that had awaited it.” Remarks like these were reflected in Ben-Gurion’s view of the Holocaust. It was not just, or mainly, an incomprehensible tragedy for the Jewish people. It was a particular tragedy for Zionism because, for Ben-Gurion, it deprived Israel of the most desirable “human material.”

                                        </blockquote>

                                        https://thebaffler.com/latest/unmaking-the-myth-of-ben-gurion-leifer

                                        The saviour of more than 30,000 souls was murdered by the Zionists.

                                        <blockquote>

                                        Two former members of a militant Jewish group that was led by now-Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir have admitted they took part in the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden 40 years ago while he was serving as U.N. mediator in Palestine, according to Dan Margalit of Israel’s state-run Educational Television.

                                        It was the first time that members of the underground group, Lohamei Herut Yisrael (Israel Freedom Fighters), widely known as the Stern Gang, openly admitted to the killing, Margalit said.

                                        Yehoshua Zeitler and Meshulam Markover told Margalit in interviews, one of which was broadcast by Educational Television on Friday, that they directed and led the operation to kill Bernadotte on Sept. 17, 1948, on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

                                        Shamir’s role in the Bernadotte case has never been clearly spelled out, but Swedish and other historians maintain that, as one of the three leaders of the Stern Gang, he would have had a key role in planning the killing.

                                        Responding to the disclosures, Shamir’s Cabinet director, Yossi Ahimeir, said: “Mr. Shamir looks forwards, not backwards. I am sure he will not say anything about this, but he did not take part in either deciding the operation or carrying it out.”

                                        Bernadotte’s assassination, along with that of an aide who was killed at the same time, sent shock waves around the world, especially in view of Bernadotte’s humanitarian work in Europe as leader of the Swedish Red Cross during and immediately after World War II.

                                        Zeitler, according to interviews with Margalit, said he decided to kill Bernadotte after the 53-year-old Swede made far-reaching proposals on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states as a result of the shifting battle lines during Israel’s fight for independence.

                                        </blockquote>https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-09-11-mn-2809-story.html

                                        The Yemeni immigrants Jews had their children stolen and experiented on by the Zionists.

                                        <blockquote>

                                        In June 2016, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appointed Tzachi Hanegbi, a government minister, to re-examine the evidence in the three previous inquiries.[3] Netanyahu said it would "right an historic wrong" and marked a new era of transparency. The government opened up nearly all of the archives of the inquiries putting them online.[26]

                                        Disturbing revelations followed in a special Knesset committee about medical experiments that had been conducted on the Yemenite children. Prior testimony given under oath during the previous inquiries revealed that many children had died as a consequence of medical negligence. Further testimony revealed that four undernourished babies died after being administered an experimental protein injection. Violating Jewish tradition, post-mortem examinations were carried out on children who were then buried in mass graves. Children's hearts were removed in some cases and given to US doctors researching the near absence of heart disease found in Yemen.[26]

                                        </blockquote>

                                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Children_Affair

                                      2. GNU SedGawk

                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                        Oh you want to talk ships

                                        The Zionists attacking Jews again..

                                        <blockquote>The Patria disaster was the sinking on 25 November 1940 by the Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah of a French-built ocean liner, the 11,885-ton SS Patria, in the port of Haifa, killing 267 people and injuring 172.[1]

                                        At the time of the sinking, Patria was carrying about 1,800 Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe whom the British authorities were deporting from Mandatory Palestine to Mauritius because they lacked entry permits. Zionist organizations opposed the deportation, and the underground paramilitary Haganah group planted a bomb intended to disable the ship to prevent it from leaving Haifa.

                                        </blockquote>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster

                                        1. L King

                                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                          You're the one who obviously hates Jews, Gnu SedGawk.

                                          The disabling of Patria was to PREVENT Britain from sending Jews to concentration camps in Mauritania - an idea first proposed prior to WW II by the Poles and then by the Nazis.

                                          As the article you quoted stated, the intent was to disable the ship to prevent it from leaving Haifa. There was no intent to kill anyone.

                                          You are Andropov's child:

                                          "We needed to instil. a Nazi-style hatred for the Jews throughout the Islamic world, and to turn this weapon of the emotions into a terrorist bloodbath against Israel and its main supporter, the United States." — Yuri Andropov, Chairman of the Soviet KGB, later General Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, as reported by General Ion Pacepa.

                                      3. GNU SedGawk

                                        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                                        1941 you say,

                                        The basic facts about Yitzhak Shamir cannot really be open to question. During the 1940s, he was one of the leading figures of a right-wing Zionist terrorist group, which had proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany.
                                        https://overland.org.au/2012/07/in-memory-of-yitzhak-shamir/

                                        In 1941, however, LEHI offered to collaborate with the Nazis. In their letter to the Nazis, they explained that LEHI ‘is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure’.
                                        https://overland.org.au/2012/07/in-memory-of-yitzhak-shamir/

                                        Zionist-Nazi Cooperation Proposed

                                        When the overtures to the Italians elicited no serious response from Rome, Stern and his colleagues dispatched a representative to meet in Lebanon in early 1941 with a German agent. They later sent the German Embassy in Ankara a detailed proposal for Zionist-Nazi cooperation. The Lehi proposal offered to help the Germans force the British out of Palestine in return for permission to establish a Jewish state there to which European Jewry would be transferred by the Nazis. This fantastic plan emphasized the ''common nationalist and totalitarian bonds" between Nazi ideology and Lehi's revisionist Zionism.

                                        As German and Italian forces were surrendering Shamir had become one of Lehi's most powerful leaders and the organization, in turn, came under a strong pro-Soviet influence. Indeed, Shamir was a main proponent of forming an alliance with Stalinist Russia to help evict the British from the region and weaken the pro-Western regimes there.

                                        https://www.wrmea.org/1991-december/january-199/revelation-that-shamir-bartered-us-secrets-is-part-of-a-lifetime-pattern.html

                                3. L King

                                  Herzl quote much more positive than anti-Zionists imagine

                                  It's a favorite of antizionists, but it's not as they portray. They purposely omit most of what Herzl wrote and its context.

                                  This is what Herzl wrote:

                                  When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.

                                  But this is how Gnu SedGawk chose to mangle:

                                  “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

                                  HUGE difference. There's an emphasis on finding alternate employment and living space for the poor, and compensating property owners. If the owners of the property did not wish to sell they would be both tolerated and respected, and anyone who did not do so would be dealt with harshly. Compare this to what actually happened - which is what SedGawk obviously preferred - the Argentinians simply shot the local Indians and took over their land. Which is what was happening elsewhere in the Americas, Africa and the US at the time and in the decades that followed. This is what Herzl opposed.

                                  Keep in mind this was a speculation that Herzl wrote about in his private diary 1895 BEFORE he became the de facto leader of the Zionist movement. Further, at the time he was considering Argentina and South America, not Palestine. And he never brought up the idea again, so Chicken SedGawk is telling more lies. Quite the opposite - in his semi-Utopian novel where Herzl does consider Israel as the location for the Jewish State he portrays Arabs as equal citizens who enjoy a high standard of living.

                                  But this is what antisemites like GnuGawk like to do - cherry pick and distort statements out of context in order to demonize Jews.

                                  So let's pick a contrasting quote from one of the leaders and founders of Palestinians nationalism and make the same type of claim that GnuGawk makes - that it is seminal and representative of Palestinianism:

                                  "Kill the Jews. Kill them all whereever you find them. This pleases , Allah, history and religion" - Hajj Amin al Husseini, Radio Zissen, March 1944.

                                  No, not that one. It's too easy. This one, by his cousin and lieutenant Jamal Husseini

                                  "To the Arab word, partition represents a further menace. The Arab world is a territorial continuity INHABITED BY A HOMOGENOUS POPULATION. As such it is free from serious frictions and a natural bulwark for peace. Homogeneity in race has always been the natural basis for mutual understanding and community of interests. The creation of an alien Jewish state in Palestine means the destruction of this territorial continuity and NATIONAL HOMOGENEITY and the creation of a running sore that will undoubtedly become a permanent source of trouble in the Middle East. Such a move which in fact entails the creation of another Balkan in the Middle East, the Arabs can never tolerate. "

                                  Palestine Conference, London, Jan 1947

                                  This is 2 years after the defeat of Hitler who hoped to create a similarly structured Europe, also made up of a single homogenous race. To Jamal and other Palestinian nationalsists, this is the natural order of things. What is even more shocking - nobody thought to correct him.

                                  1. GNU SedGawk

                                    Re: Herzl quote much more positive than anti-Zionists imagine

                                    I genuinely love that you think the full quote helps your argument.

                                    Also if Zionism is the national renewal why would other countries be considered than Palestine?

                                    Why do you have zero response to the overwhelming evidence, that Zionism hates Jews

                                    <blockquote>

                                    n the course of the fourth conference of the Histadrut (January 1933), one of the leaders of the workers delivered a message something like this from the platform: “What is self-preparation? . . . First of all, preparation for Gentile jobs, the self-preparation of the Jewish worker to become a Gentile . . . to do Gentile work . . . to make a profit the way Gentiles do. . . . The Jewish village girl shall live like a Gentile country lass, etc., etc.”—The purpose of self-preparation is not only to turn the Jewish storekeeper into a worker but—into a Gentile!

                                    </blockout>

                                    <blockquote>

                                    If diasporic Jews would only grasp the fact of Exile, they would see themselves in their proper historical and political light: as proto-Israelis whose life abroad is ephemeral and can only be redeemed by settlement in the national and spiritual center of the Jewish nation, the Land – and State – of Israel. In this view Jews had become parasitic on other peoples. As the early Zionist ideologue A.D. Gordon put it: “We are a parasitic people. We have no roots in the soil, there is no ground beneath our feet. And we are parasites not only in an economic sense, but in spirit, in thought, in poetry, in literature, and in our virtues, our ideals, our higher human aspirations. Every alien movement sweeps us along, every wind in the world carries us. We in ourselves are almost non-existent, so of course we are nothing in the eyes of other people either.” This view of Jews as a parasitic people resembles, the Israeli historian Zeev Sternhell notes in his book, The Founding Myths of Zionism, modern European antisemitism. Indeed, Sternhell observes (p. 49), “A hatred of the diaspora and a rejection of Jewish life there were a kind of methodological necessity for Zionism…. Not only was Jewish history in exile deemed to be unimportant, but the value of living Jews, Jews of flesh and blood, depended entirely on their use as raw material for national revival.”

                                    Zionism released a dynamic, the nationalization of Judaism, that may have superseded Jewish life in the Exile in Zionism’s own eyes but has led to the division of Jews into two ever more distinct peoples: Israeli Jews and Jews living abroad.

                                    </blockquote>

                                    https://mronline.org/2021/07/08/the-zionist-assault-on-judaism/

                                  2. GNU SedGawk

                                    Re: Herzl quote much more positive than anti-Zionists imagine

                                    As bad as this sounds, the Rabin-Vorster summit was even worse. A few decades earlier, during World War II, Vorster had joined the Ossewa-Brandwag, which sided with Nazi Germany and even supported creation of a government “modeled loosely on Nazi Germany.” Vorster rose to the position of “Chief General” in the organization. His wartime efforts on behalf of the Third Reich earned him nearly two years of internment. Nevertheless, in 1976, Rabin and the Israeli leadership not only ignored and/or excused this heinous past but also had Vorster tour Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust memorial and museum. A reporter declared that Vorster appeared “moved” by the commemoration of the millions of victims of the regime he had so ardently supported.

                                    The forgive-and-forget “graciousness” extended to Vorster is in stark contrast to the decades-long Israeli campaign collectively vilifying all Palestinians for the pro-Nazi stance of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem. While the Mufti, like Vorster, was pro-Nazi, there has been a concerted effort to grossly exaggerate both al-Husseini’s popularity among Palestinians and the extent of the blood on his hands. Then-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu earned a humiliating rebuke by Holocaust historians when he claimed that Hitler was intending only to expel Jews until al-Husseini whispered into his ear to kill the Jews instead.

                                    So according to Israeli lore, al-Husseini’s association with the Nazi cause during the War justified the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel in 1948, but Vorster himself earned complete forgiveness for his similar WW2 activities once he proved his value by rising to lead the most explicitly racist government on Earth. Israel saw in Vorster an image of its own likeness, and his past support of the Nazis was relegated to an irrelevant and excusable historical footnote.

                                    https://mondoweiss.net/2022/03/south-african-pms-embrace-by-israel-in-1976-sheds-light-on-faux-outrage-over-amnestys-apartheid-report/

                        2. GNU SedGawk

                          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

                          I know what you wrote as well, which is why I called you on it.

                          A distorting lens of hasbara more like.

                          <blockquote>I don't disagree that there were grave historical wrongs against the Palestinian people in the history of the formation of the state of Israel. No-one comes out of that well. </blockquote>

                          "history" and "historical" imply a past, a discontinuity with the present, where a well armed group of terrorists backed by the leading imperial powers of the day attack a defenceless civilian population. That has continued unabated since 1917 with such continuity that "well armed group of terrorists backed by leading imperial powers of the day attack a defenceless civilian population" could apply to 1948, 1967, 2000, 2014, 2022.

                          There is an apartheid regime imposed on a defenceless civilian population, which you understand the motivation behind its imposition, as if the naked avarice and sheer racism is some sort of deep motivation.

                          It's a free house in a country where you can grow oranges and banana in the Garden, Zionism's appeal to the poor racists was not complicated, "if I don't steal it someone else will" https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says

                          If you notice, he's a yank, the noted home of Anti Jewish feeling, where famously there are no Jews, and Jews have to hide their religious practices.

                  2. L King

                    Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                    Not much difference between the lies of the an anti-Zionist and those of an antisemite. Your hate and extermism is the product of Soviet propaganda.

                    "We needed to instil. a Nazi-style hatred for the Jews throughout the Islamic world, and to turn this weapon of the emotions into a terrorist bloodbath against Israel and its main supporter, the United States." — Yuri Andropov, Chairman of the Soviet KGB, later General Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, as reported by General Ion Pacepa.

                    According the article YOU cited, but obviously did not read:

                    On January 14, 1951, at about seven in the evening, a bomb - or perhaps it was a hand grenade - was tossed into the open courtyard of the Masuda Shemtov synagogue in Baghdad. The courtyard served as a gathering place for Jews, prior to their departure for the airport, on their way to Israel. The courtyard served as a gathering place for Jews PRIOR TO THEIR DEPARTURE FOR THE AIRPORT, ON THEIR WAY TO ISRAEL.

                    (In other words, the Jews had already decided to leave making your claim that that Israel was trying to frighten them to leave patentely ridiculous. The reason was that the antisemitic Iraqi government had already dismissed all Jewish government employees, shut down Jewish schools, cancelled import/export licences of Jewish businesses and forced the owners of Jewish businesses to take on Muslim partners who would be majority owners. In order to leave the country Jews had to give up their property and their Iraqi citizenship - which most had done PRIOR to the the bombing. By June 14, 1950, 60,000 Jews had already registered to leave.)

                    According to Tager, the bombing of the Masuda Shemtov synagogue was not carried out by Israelis, but by members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

                    The two emmisaries, who were not guilty, were slated to be executed. "However, at least one activist from the Zionist underground, Yosef Beit-Halahmi, did apparently carry out several terror attacks AFTER the arrest of his comrades, IN THE HOPE OF PROVING TO THE IRAQI AUTHORITIES THAT THE DETAINEES WERE NOT INVOLVED In these actions. (which they were not).

                    https://www.haaretz.com/2006-04-06/ty-article/now-it-can-be-told/0000017f-e185-d804-ad7f-f1ff68e50000

                    The alleged Cairo bombing (Operation Sussanah) were dissimilar. The "bombs" were amateurish and ineffective. The goal was to dissuade the Americans from loaning money and providing arms to Egypt, and were about as effective as smoke bombs. One bomb singed a bookshelf in the American library. The second leaked in the pocket of the person who was carrying it when he tried to evade the Egyptian secret police by ducking into a movie theatre. He suffered 3rd degree burns to his leg. No one else was harmed. Nasser promised Israel that they would not to carry out the death penalty, then claimed he could not prevent it, Another lie - as dictator Nasser could do as he pleased.

                    Iran has the 2nd largest Jewish remaining community in the Muslim world, about 9,000. Turkey has twice that. Prior to the Islamic Revolution there were over 100,000 Jews in Iran. Most managed to flee either to Israel or the West. Jews are watched closely by the police. There is one Jewish member of parliament, effectively selected by the regime so that the regime can issue its directives to the community. If you leave the country on business or to visit relatives you have to leave other members of your family behind as hostages to ensure your return.

                    The reason behind most Jews leaving Morocco was wide spread antisemitism. It was clear that Morocco was likely following the same path as Algeria. In mid-May 1956 the French High-Commissioner to Morocco described the flight of Jews, "worried about their property and lives, who wish to leave Morocco quickly. The bad treatment currently inflicted on them (forced contributions to the "Arab cause" against Israel, kinappings, murders) could only incite them to depart" Kidnappings of you girls and forced conversions worsened the climate. At the same time, in January 1951 during the visit of President Nasser, Jewish children were improsoned by the police chief, a notorious antisemite, who was convinced that seeing jewish schoolchildren on the sidewalks could displease the Egyitian Rais (leader))

                    ref: Jews in Arab Countries: The great Uprooting, Georges Bensoussan, p 425

                    You're grossly naive, misinformed and bigotted, wrong and persistant liar. Contrary to your claims, Israel's recent bombing at the Aleppo airport was not an an attack against civilians, rather the target was an Iranian arms depot being transferred to Hezbollah. Israeli Arabs enjoy more freedoms than almost any Arab group in the Middle East. As Rhoda Kadalie, anti-apartheid activist and former commissioner of the South African Human Rights Commission who was appointed by Nelson Mandel has written:

                    "Racism and discrimination do not form the rationale for Israel’s policies and actions. Arab citizens

                    of Israel can vote and serve in the Knesset; black South Africans could not vote until 1994.

                    There are no laws in Israel that discriminate against Arab citizens or separate them from Jews. Unlike the United Kingdom, Greece, and Norway, Israel has no state religion, and it recognizes Arabic as one of its official languages. Whereas apartheid was established through a series of oppressive laws that governed which park benches we could sit on, where we could go to school, which areas

                    we were allowed to live in, and even whom we could marry, Israel was founded upon a liberal and inclusive

                    Declaration of Independence. South Africa had a job reservation policy for white people; Israel has adopted

                    pro-Arab affirmative action measures in some sectors.

                    Israeli schools, universities and hosptials make no distinction between Jews and Arabs. An Arab citizen

                    who brings a case before an Israeli court will have that case decided on the basis of merit, not ethnicity. This was never the case for blacks under apartheid.

                    Israel is the only country in the Middle East rated as “free” by Freedom House. The apartheid label is

                    more appropriate for many of Israel’s neighbors, which have appalling records when it comes to the treatment of minority groups, political dissidents, and women, and which have explicitly discriminatory policies in operation, ranging from the Saudi ban on non-Muslim religions to the suppression of Kurdish activists in Syria, Turkey and Iran. It is telling that Israel has done more for black Muslim refugees from Darfur than has any Arab or Muslim country, granting hundreds citizenship. By contrast, Egypt’s government has persecuted and killed Sudanese refugees, with little international censure.

                    In the West Bank, measures such as the ugly security barrier have been used to prevent suicide bombings and attacks on civilians, not to enforce any racist ideology. With- out the ongoing conflict and the tendency of Palestinian leaders to resort to violence, these would not exist. "

                    1. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                      So many lies.

                      I don't know who "Nelson Mandel" was but I'm sure he was a mensch.

                      Nelson Mandela said <blockquote>"We identify with the PLO because just like ourselves they are fighting for the right of self-determination," he said. "We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians."

                      </blockquote>

                      https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/nelson-mandela-30-years-palestine

                    2. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                      <blockquote>Israeli Arabs enjoy more freedoms than almost any Arab group in the Middle East.</blockquote>

                      Palestinians living inside 1948 borders of Zionist State are "permanent residents" not citizens, they are subject to a campaign of apartheid.

                      1. L King

                        Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Doubles Down on Lying, Refuses to Admit He's Been Proven Wrong!

                        Only 7% of Israeli Arabs identify as "Palestinians" and they are full citizens of the State. 51% identify as "Israeli Arab" and 23% feel they are more Israeli.

                        https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/only-7-percent-of-israeli-arabs-define-themselves-as-palestinian-625285

                        The "Permanent Resident" status refers mostly to Arab residents in the eastern section of Jerusalem who've been offered Israeli citizenship but have been coerced by the PA not to apply. Yet 93% of Jerusalem Arabs prefer Israeli rule to either Hamas or the PA and 40% or more if forced to live under either would take Israeli citizenship and move west of the Green Line.

                        https://www.shfanews.net/post/102082

                        https://www.bridgesforpeace.com/article/jerusalem-arabs-prefer-israel/

                    3. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                      <blockquote>

                      In the West Bank, measures such as the ugly security barrier have been used to prevent suicide bombings and attacks on civilians, not to enforce any racist ideology. With- out the ongoing conflict and the tendency of Palestinian leaders to resort to violence, these would not exist. "

                      </blockquote>

                      Without the Zionist State Terrorist group attacking the people of Palestine, the occupation and apartheid would not exist, and neither would the armed resistance to violent dispossession and the slow motion genocide which is carried out under the closed eyes of the world.

                      <blockquote>

                      “A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing.”

                      </blockquote>

                      https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/zionism-is-not-colonialism-just-jewish-self-determination/

                    4. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                      Israel is WORSE than Apartheid, says former South African MP Andrew Feinstein

                      https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2021/may/18/israel-is-worse-than-apartheid-says-former-south-african-mp-son-of-holocaust-survivor-palestine-gaza

                    5. GNU SedGawk

                      Re: Cowardly Anti-Zionist GNU SedAwk Tells Lies, Doesn't Read His Own Sources

                      Iraq and the motivation behind the Zionist State Terrorist campaign targetting Iraqi Jews which became known as the Baghdad bombings.

                      <blockquote>

                      Sixteen years later, the Israeli magazine Haolam Hazeh, published by Uri Avnery, then a Knesset member, accused Ben-Porat of the Baghdad bombings. Ben-Porat, who would become a Knesset member himself, denied the charge but never sued the magazine for libel. And Iraqi Jews in Israel still call him Morad Abu al-Knabel, Mordechai of the Bombs.

                      </blockquote>

                      <blockquote>

                      During 1956, the Israeli Defense Minister alluded that the Zionist terrorist operations committed against the Jews of Iraq between April 1950 and June 1951 were perpetrated by Zionist secret agencies, in his comment on the Lavon Affairs in Egypt against western interests in 1954, in which the Israeli secret intelligence officers (Mossad officers) launched a series of bomb attacks on American and British property in Egypt.

                      "This method in carrying out the operations was not invented to be applied only in Egypt, as it was tried for the first time in Iraq".

                      </blockquote>

                      <blockquote>

                      The Israeli political activist "Sadiq Sadiq", an Iraqi Jew admitted in an interview with "The Israeli Scene": "I was born in Iraq, and immigrated to Israel in 1951. I did not immigrate alone, but the number of Iraqis who came to Israel in that year amounted to nearly 130 thousand Iraqis". "We came to Israel through a plot and deal implemented in 1949 in Switzerland between the [Iraqi Prime Minister] Nuri Said and David Ben-Gurion [Israeli Prime Minister]. This transaction sold the Iraqi Jews through leaving their country and coming to Israel". He said. "One of the methods that was used to force Iraqi Jews to leave their homeland was when the Zionist movement, through its agents, carried out the bombings of the Jewish synagogues, in order to be said that the Arabs blow up synagogues in order to expel the Jews. But Jews were arrested as they were involved in the bombings of Jewish synagogues in Baghdad." He said in the interview. We conclude that the Arabs did not expel Jews from their countries, but it was the Zionist movement and the Mossad who were responsible for their immigration, as it was not possible to build a Jewish state without the displacement and gathering of Jews from around the world in Palestine. All means were used to achieve this end, including Zionist organized terrorism.

                      </blockquote>

                      https://www.academia.edu/37048619/Mossad_secret_operations_for_forced_displacement_of_the_Jews_of_Iraq_When_Cohen_spoke

      3. L King

        Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

        You're either deliberately naive or you are intentionally gaslighting people. You sound like George Bush. There isn't a single poll indicating that Palestinians want either secularism or a binational state let alone democratic freedoms. Freedom would give a woman the right to choose to control her own body. She would no longer be the property of her husband or her family. Freedom and secularism would mean that adults could choose to leave Islam and become an atheist or convert to a different women. Freedom in the Arab world is synonymous with Wester corruption and a lack of morality. Freedom would mean that Jews could freely pray on the hoilest site in Judaism - the Temple Mount. Heresy!!!! (And yes, Muslims are allowed to pray at the Western Wall.)

        In May 2021 Hamas held a policy conference under the sponsorship of their military leadership, "The Promise of the Hereafter, to decide what would happen the day after Hamas would be victorious. Most "Zionists" aka Jews would be killed, except a few who would temporarily be exploited as slaves to run the infrastructure until Arabs could take over. All data records would be seized so that Jews could be tracked down world wide. And of couse it would be another Islamic State.

        "Keepng the Jews, scholars and experts in the fields of medicine, engineering, technology, civil and military industry, for a while and not letting them leave with the knowledge, science and experience they acquired while they reside on our land... "

        https://bit.ly/3OYpdZu

        Just so you know - "Jewish supremacy" is a phrase that originated with the American racist David Duke. But then the self righteousness antisemitism of the far left and far left are vitually indistinguishable.

        1. GNU SedGawk

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          <blockquote>You're either deliberately naive or you are intentionally gaslighting people. You sound like George Bush. There isn't a single poll indicating that Palestinians want either secularism or a binational state let alone democratic freedoms.</blockquote>

          Racist suggestion that the Palestinians are desirous of being murdered, violently dispossessed, subjected to pervasive total surveillance.

          <blockquote>

          ...

          The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

          Attack on Arab Village

          A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

          The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

          Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

          ...

          </blockquote>

          https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948/mode/1up

        2. GNU SedGawk

          Re: A very political employee throwing a hissy fit

          Balfour declaration 1917 - Zionists "Hamas... In May 2021".

          Maybe this friend of yours David read the B’Tselem report on Apartheid <blockquote>

          In the entire area, control over these aspects of life lies entirely in Israel’s hands – the sole power determining the population registry; land allocation; voter rolls; and the right (or denial thereof) to travel within, enter or exit any part of the area. The Israeli regime has grown increasingly explicit regarding its Jewish supremacist ideology, a process that has seen two major unmasking milestones in recent years. One was the enactment of Basic Law: Israel – the Nation State of the Jewish People, which declares the distinction between Jews and non-Jews fundamental and legitimate, and permits institutional discrimination in land management and development, housing, citizenship, language and culture. The second came in the form of official statements regarding formal annexation of more parts of the West Bank, attesting to Israel’s long-term intentions and debunking claims of “temporary occupation.”

          B’Tselem stresses that the military occupation has not ended: Palestinians in the West Bank remain its direct subjects, while in the Gaza Strip they live under its effective control, exerted from the outside. At the same time, casting Israel as a “democracy” on one side of the Green Line, while it is “temporarily” occupying millions of people on the other side, is divorced from reality. This depiction ignores the fact that this state of affairs has been in place for over fifty years. It fails to take into consideration the hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers living east of the Green Line. It glosses over the de-jure annexation of East Jerusalem and the de-facto annexation of the rest of the West Bank. These facts lead to the conclusion that these are not two parallel regimes, but a single one, governing the entire area and all the people living in it.

          B’Tselem’s Executive Director, Hagai El-Ad: “The fundamental tenets of Israel’s regime, although already implemented for many years, have recently grown more explicit. This happened both with the discussion of de jure annexation after decades of de facto annexation, and with the enactment of the Nation State Basic Law, which took the existing discrimination against Palestinians and turned it into an open constitutional principle. Israel is not a democracy that has a temporary occupation attached to it: it is one regime between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, and we must look at the full picture and see it for what it is: apartheid. This sobering look at reality need not lead to despair, but quite the opposite. It is a call for change. After all, people created this regime, and people can change it.”

          </blockquote>

          https://www.btselem.org/apartheid

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't understand - if someone speaks publicly to damage their company's reputation, why aren't they just fired? Surely that's a given.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > I don't understand - if someone speaks publicly to damage their company's reputation, why aren't they just fired? Surely that's a given.

      And what of the executives who ordered and oversaw the actions which would cause damage to the company's reputation should knowledge of those actions become public? Why aren't they just fired?

      Besides which, they couldn't fire the person in this case, because the public speaking only happened after the person's employment was already terminated.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Hmm, interesting. Reading this:

        > Ariel Koren, a Jewish Googler, claims the internet giant pressured her into resigning in retaliation for her speaking out about Google and Amazon's $1.2 billion cloud contract with Israel's government and military.

        I read it as "speaking out pubicly". But perhaps not.

    2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      if someone speaks publicly to damage their company's reputation, why aren't they just fired?

      Well, the company might be run by adults, and not pissy little children. Unlikely, I know.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The only issue

    The only issue of relevance is whether Ms. Koren was indeed forced out (a.k.a. offered a relocation to a foreign country as a condition of continued employment) for expressing her opinions. If she was, shame on Google.

    If she wasn't, however, then there is no issue at all. It seems (follow this link in the article) that the employee - or, rather, "Communications Workers of America AFL-CIO" - brought charges to the National Labor Relations Board of USGov. The case was dismissed, and the Dismissal Letter states, among other things, that "the investigation did not reveal evidence of animus towards the employee because of any of [redacted, presumably "her"] protected, concerted activities and the evidence established that the Employer’s decision to relocate the [redacted, we know what the role was thanks to El Reg] role predated the asserted protected concerted activities."

    Ms. Koren is entitled to her views on any topic as much as anyone, of course. By the same token, everybody else has the right to disagree or ignore her opinions. I am not entirely certain that one should bring one's personal opinions on topics outside of professional realm to work (as distinguished from watercooler banter). In my experience, "work for hire" means, among other things, relinquishing of all rights to the fruits of one's labour, including, implicitly or explicitly, "moral rights". Moral rights relate to (legally enforceable) objections to using the fruits of one's labor (or creativity - the origins are in the art world, AFAIK) in specific places or under specific circumstances. I assume, and the assumption seems reasonable, that Ms. Koren had no moral rights to any products related to Project Nimbus. Nor was the decision whether or not to provide the services to the Israeli government within her purview as a Product Manager. Thus, while she has, IMHO, the right to think whatever she wants about the State of Israel in private she had no say in the matter at her ex-workplace.

    Was there hostility? May be. But I wonder how forcefully she expressed her apparently rather strong views. On the basis of what I do (not) know I can't exclude the possibility that she caused significant friction in the workplace. It is quite unclear to me whether that would fall under "protected concerted activities", frankly.

    1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

      Re: The only issue

      As an X-Googler, employees are encouraged to "bring their whole selves" to work--so long as that self is well-accepted by dominant clique. It's been a few years, but it seems pretty likely that this hard-left clique is getting increasingly demanding. Expect more "outrage" when outrageous behavior is not being tolerated.

      Because, eventually, the revolution always eats its own.

      1. Paul_Canada

        Re: The only issue

        I've worked for 2 companies so far who say the same. The best thing, IMO, is to bring one's professional self to work and leave one's personal and political selves at home! My perspective is that I'm there to do a job, and the job alone. Also not to be an ass, and to treat people with respect regardless of their attributes (e.g. gender, race, etc), but not necessarily to actively "celebrate diversity" since this itself is a bit political, and my sole purpose is to do the job.

        And if the company does something major that contradicts my ethics in a big way, I will quit. Has yet to happen.

        1. GNU SedGawk

          Re: The only issue

          And if the company does something major that contradicts my ethics in a big way, I will quit. Has yet to happen.

          You are shilling for apartheid and ethnic cleansing, you don't have any ethics.

      2. GNU SedGawk

        Re: The only issue

        have you considered it simply your own lack of humanity which leads you to characterise opposition to Apartheid as a political rather than a humanist position.

        "Hard Left"

    2. DrSunshine0104

      Re: The only issue

      Good job tracking down the case summary. Seems to close the issue for me, but did Google move the timeline up to potentially force a dissenter out? ...Maybe, not impossible.

      I never know exactly what to think about these issues. The company has every incentive to remain mum while the ex-employee has no incentive to avoid conflating or shouting about the topic.

      While I agree with Koren on Israel/Palestine topic... I find it somewhat hard to believe that they would pressure her into resigning just because she disagreed with the policy. I have pushed back on topics at work a handful of times but never thought they were going to pink slip me over it. She had to have been disruptive, refusing to do the work, or being extremely public and attempting to sabotage Google. Of course Google won't (and shouldn't) release any information about Koren's resignation for fear of another lawsuit that they might actually lose.

  8. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Coat

    The only way is Ethics

    Google do have ethics advisors, don't they?

  9. L King

    A little digging and one finds out that Koren was lying. She knows Spanish and she was formerly posted to Mexico. The plan to transfer her to Brazil was in the works BEFORE she launched her "protests" against Project Nimbus. Her complaint appears to be a scheme to extort a higher severance package and to publicize her anti-social action agenda.

    Job hopping is quite common in the area she works in. Normally someone in her position would be able to find a new position relatively quickly, however the fact that she would publicly try to shame her employer, regardless of what the issue happened to be, will likely make that more difficult.

    Here's a copy of findings of the National Labor Board inquiry which investigated the case.

    "the investigation did not uncover evidence of animus towards the employee because of any of her protected concerted activities and the evidence established that the Employer's decision to relocate the [redacted] rol PREDATED the asserted concerted activities."

    https://bit.ly/3CSuz4F

    1. GNU SedGawk

      She was punished by being made to relocate at a time when remote working was utterly the norm with little notice as a means of forced dismissal.

      She's a brave person, and people despite the torrent of smears and character assignation she has attracted, she look principled and Google are utterly diminished by this outcome.

      If you choose to help oppress a defenceless population some of the people working for you will find that unacceptable, and, ideally you as a business would take account of that, but at the very least allowing her to voice her discomfort and not require her to work on the project as far as practically possible.

      Instead the advert sales outfit with a sideline in boilerplate ridden languages required her to move countries so she'd take the hint.

      1. L King

        Cowardly GNU SedGawk Ignores Timeline and Lies Again

        Koren is more zero than hero. Her anti-social action activities were unrelated to the decision to relocate the position. SedGawk misdirects as Google's plan going forward was to move employees back to real world offices.

        "Significantly, Google evaluated its work-from-office policy in April and made it necessary for employees to be on-site at least three days each week. Employees, however, have resisted the new rules because they have been productively working from home, leading the IT company to record its biggest revenue rise in 15 years."

        https://zeenews.india.com/technology/google-said-to-its-employees-back-to-office-amid-most-covid-cases-at-its-workplace-2503537.html

        From the POV of the health of its employees it may not have been the wisest decision, but there is no reason to conclude that Ms Koren was treated any differently than other employees because of her extra-curricular activities. And that was the basis of the case.

        Given that the independent National Labor Board inquiry which investigated the case determined that the decision to relocate Koren's position occured BEFORE her protests took place it is IMPOSSIBLE that she was being "punished" for that reason.

        "the investigation did not uncover evidence of animus towards the employee because of any of her protected concerted activities and the evidence established that the Employer's decision to relocate the [redacted] rol PREDATED the asserted concerted activities."

        https://bit.ly/3CSuz4F

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