back to article UK wants criminal migrants to scan their faces up to five times a day using a watch

The UK's Home Office and Ministry of Justice want migrants with criminal convictions to scan their faces up to five times a day using a smartwatch kitted out with facial-recognition software. Plans for wrist-worn face-scanning devices were discussed in a data protection impact assessment report from the Home Office. Officials …

  1. Nifty Silver badge

    Hikvision have put a bid in for the contract.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      It sounds like a profitable contract, Politicians of all parties (worldwide, not just the US) are busy helping the companies that support them make money.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Sounds like a perfect Putler product.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Presumably this is an alternative to an unremovable tag. Will the system be able to differentiate between scans of the same face and scans of the same image of the same face? Or did nobody at the HO & DoJ spot the gaping hole in this idea?

    1. Blackjack Silver badge

      Since the scan system has to fit on a mass produced smart watch, a 3D print of a face or something much cheaper will fool it.

    2. ThatOne Silver badge

      > Will the system be able to differentiate between scans of the same face and scans of the same image of the same face?

      Or simply attack the location part, which is certainly a lot simpler to fool.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "ankle tags or smartwatches"

      ATOS are thinking of using ankle tags to weed out malingerers...

      If you can scan your face with your ankle tag then you must be fit for work... if you can't then you need an immediate assessment because you are obviously trying to scam the system by pretending you can't

  3. Graham Cobb Silver badge

    What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

    Society agrees that criminals should be punished. Courts have a range of punishments they can hand down, and there are related rules for conditions to be attached for things like parole.

    In no case, however, should the criminal's race, nationality or immigration status be allowed to be considered in the decision. They should all be protected characteristics along with things like sexuality, disability and sexual preferences.

    Yes, criminal convictions may be relevant to making immigration decisions. But Immigration status should not be relevant to punishments.

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      If we can't distinguish between good criminals and bad criminals, how are we to excuse those who are ambushed by cake?

      1. Paul Herber Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        Is it important whether the cake is coffee and walnut coloured or carrot coloured? I have to admit to being cakeist!

      2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        If you mean Boris...

        May be he'll be deported to the country of his birth, America

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          We don't want him back. We have our own problems.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          Considering Boris Johnson is now officially a foreign born criminal, UK law allows him to be deported. His native US is obviously an option but perhaps Rwanda would accept him too.

          1. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            AFAIK Boris gave up his US nationality,.... to avoid paying the IRS tax on the profits of a house sale. Seems even though he was domiciled in the UK, and the property sale was in the UK, and he would have paid, sorry, would have been obliged to pay tax in the UK, the IRS wanted a cut. So he let his dual nationality go.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              Since when has nationality been an issue for the UK to deport people? The UK has deported British people to the country of their birth as part of the Windrush scandal and I can easily see HMG do something like that again. It even recently gave itself the right to take away UK Citizenship. So, under UK law, Boris Johnson can be stripped of his UK Citizenship and be deported to the US. Whether the US will have him is another matter.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

                I can assure you that we do not want him over here.

          2. Nick Ryan Silver badge

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            Deporting the criminal Boris Johnson to Rwanda would be fitting and about as relevant a destination for him as most of the others that he is happy to be send to Rwanda

      3. Snowy Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        Considering cake is now a gender does that make "ambushed by cake?" a hate crime?

      4. jake Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        The cake is a lie.

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Pirate

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          CAKE is a made up drug

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      Silly you.

      You think it will stop at criminals? Or even "immigrant criminals"? Like the UK phone records are only kept for criminals??

      Clearly these are not dangerous people, because they'd be in jail. They're not a risk of flight, because they're trusted enough to keep wearing a tracking writeband and not simply remove it and flee! So its difficult to see what the aim is there that couldn't be done in a much simpler way.

      There's a number of possibilities:

      1) Pritti Patel wants everyone to be absolutely clear, that she is not an immigrant. It seems most of her venom is aimed at immigrants to the UK. I suspect some self loathing is going on there. So perhaps there is an element of that!

      2) They're trying to create a UK business making wrist trackers. There really aren't many UK businesses in electronics, and unless such devices are commissioned by the UK, they cannot ensure the money is kept in the country. You can print all the money you like, but what businesses could you create to justify the money you print? For UK, that's ever increasing surveillance and regulation compliance and monitoring. They break the windows, they mend the windows, buy only to approved UK window mending spec!

      3) They're trying to establish a principle of keeping face records. See, you have the call records, wouldn't it be nice if everytime you unlocked your phone, it took a photo of your face to go with those call records too? Then when the spooks runs co-traveller or similar, they could see who is there. Who is around you at all times and so on. So why stop at *immigrant* criminals, why not just *criminals*, or just *suspected* criminals. A person is just a *suspect* that hasn't been cleared yet... so why not keep them for *everyone*?

      Some mix of the above perhaps?

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        1) Take notice that this snake only looks scary and apart from hissing hasn't done anything for years. If someone like that was hired in a private sector, they would have been let go at first instance of uselessness.

        To be honest, I hope it stays that way until the next election. At least these delusional ideas won't have a chance of being implemented.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          She's caused a lot of damage.

          No actual progress towards her stated goals, but ruined a lot of lives and spent billions on hurting people and snake oil.

          She's also broken the ministerial code, but Boris said it was ok to bully her staff so she stayed in post.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: She's caused a lot of damage.

            arguably, everyone in the same post before here caused a lot of damage. Starting (where my memories start) with the man and his dog. Such a lovely, genuine gentleman...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        >Pritti Patel wants everyone to be absolutely clear, that she is not an immigrant. It seems most of her venom is aimed at immigrants to the UK. I suspect some self loathing is going on there.

        Perhaps, as the daughter of legal immigrants, she's heard about the hoops that have to be jumped through from close family members. This might make her a little cross at people who break the law to skip the queue, at the expense of law abiding immigration candidates.

        1. iron Silver badge

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          Perhaps she should have a little humanity and empathy for people like her family.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            Her family didn't enter the country illegally and this may shock a racist like you but there's a great deal of ethnic and cultural variation within 'brown people' as you seem to see them.

            1. Cuddles Silver badge

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              Why are you so focussed on illegal immigrants? That has nothing to with the system under discussion, which would apply to all migrants including Ms. Patel's family.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          No. Prior to 1962 there were few restrictions on Commonwealth immigration, her parents had it easy and they weren't even fleeing a war zone:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Immigrants_Act_1962

          "Before the Act was passed, citizens of Commonwealth countries had extensive rights to migrate to the UK."

          Likewise the 1968 bill made it even harder, and every bill since has raised the bar. Her parents may have emmigrated totally legally in their day, but that immigration cause would now be illegal and they would be illegal immigrants under the new rules.

          I think its more that if she did anything to make immigration easier, her opponents would cite her surname as proof she's soft on immigrants, so she treats them like shit to prove otherwise.

          1. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            "Her parents may have emmigrated totally legally in their day, but that immigration cause would now be illegal and they would be illegal immigrants under the new rules."

            That implies they would have knowingly broken the law. There is no evidence for this. They would more likely have not emigrated at all.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        > I suspect some self loathing is going on there.

        I don't think it's that. There seems to be a tendency amongst some people to want to be more Catholic than the pope. A bit like Sárközy Miklós and his aversion of Eastern Europeans.

      4. MrBanana Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        "They break the windows, they mend the windows, buy only to approved UK window mending spec"

        Yes, they break the EU double gazed windows, then to be replaced with UK spec 4mm float glass. Yay! Brexit!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      All we need is a little Act of Parliament that says if you are a migrant and you break the law, you will be sent back to the law breaking country that you came from, or France, if more convenient.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        You don't think sending Boris back to the USA will be seen by them as an act of war?

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

          That sad, boring little blowhard would probably be laughed at if he chose to move back here. He'll certainly never be worth declaring war over.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            At least you guys would never make an idiot president because he was funny on a TV show

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              not sure about that they already made an idiot actor president back in the 80's..

              They are well ahead of the rest of the world in that regard.

              Corruption wise, not sure we can ever catch up, although CONselfservatives are really fucking trying!.

              1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

                Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

                not sure about that they already made an idiot actor president back in the 80's

                Bullshit.

                I'm not a fan of Reagan or his policies, but he had been governor of California, among other jobs, before he became president; and his papers provide a huge amount of evidence to show that he was a well-informed policy wonk with a great deal of insight into the functions of government when he was first elected POTUS.

                There's little question that he suffered severe cognitive decline over the following eight years, but he was much more than an actor and far from an idiot. The US has had its share of terrible and mediocre presidents. Reagan, whether you like his policies or not, and despite his decline while in office, was not one of them.

                1. VicMortimer
                  Flame

                  Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

                  You've got to be kidding. Ronnie Ray-gun was among the worst presidents in US history.

                  He was an utterly incompetent fool whose accomplishments include increasing the wealth gap, nearly starting a nuclear war multiple times, and basing policy decisions on astrology. He was also a traitor whose campaign secretly negotiated with Iran to keep American hostages until after the election, and who approved a treasonous scheme involving illegally selling weapons to Iran to illegally fund a right-wing insurgency in Nicaragua.

                  As governor of California, his racist gun control policies were used to disarm Black Americans with the full approval of the NRA.

                  "Idiot actor" is giving him too much credit. Reagan should have been in a nursing home, not the white house.

            2. ThatOne Silver badge
              Unhappy

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              > At least you guys would never make an idiot president because he was funny on a TV show

              In a heartbeat. The "Oh look, shiny!..." vote is unfortunately the future of politics: Lacking any talented politicians (or even just honest ones), people just vote for the more mouthy one. Doesn't matter if he's a moron, a sociopath, or both at the same time, he has to sound cool to get the job. The trick (and the perk of a democracy) is to get him thrown out again before he does too much damage, and hope the next idiot will do different, complementary damage, while hopefully fixing some of his predecessor's mess.

              1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

                "The trick (and the perk of a democracy) is to get him thrown out again before he does too much damage,"

                This is why democracy is the worst system except for all the others. It's the only one that lets you fix it when (not if) it goes wrong. Of course, if the error lies in the electorate repeatedly voting for someone who screws them over, there isn't much you can do.

            3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              At least you guys would never make an idiot president because he was funny on a TV show

              Damned calumny. Trump was never funny.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

                Are you sure that that comment was an attack on Orange Man Bad, not a Russian troll having a crack at President Zelenskiy?

          2. Nick Ryan Silver badge

            Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

            When we temporarily got rid of the evil, vile toad Farrage to the US he was greeted by large numbers of Americans, and even the current "president" at the time as if he was vaguely worth the effort of paying attention to. Unfortunately he was allowed back and given time on a radio station to spout his lies and division and then on a right wing propaganda TV channel that was pretending to be a news channel.

            Farrage, of course, is still bitter with the EU that his chosen, highly skilled career, as a money changer was ruined by the introduction of the Euro. He had no skills other than lying and self promotion therefore what else could he do?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

              Apart from the fact that GB news is actually a news channel (though yes, right leaning), as you would know if you ever actually bothered to watch it, and that Farage was a commodities broker, so not a "money changer".

              Somewhat hypocritical of you to call someone else a liar.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      > Society agrees that criminals should be punished

      I don't know where you live. Where I live the goal is reform not punishment. The latter may give the pusillanimous some brief satisfaction, but only the former contributes, albeit slowly, to a better and more just society, as exemplified by the much safer world we live in, compared to centuries past.

      You are of course correct for the rest.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

        "A person seeks justice. People are dumb, angry, vengeful animals and you know it."

    5. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      In no case, however, should the criminal's race, nationality or immigration status be allowed to be considered in the decision.

      Errm.. why not? If you request entry to most countries, you'll be asked if you have a criminal record. If you do, you might be denied entry and removed. If you're a guest in many countries and committ a criminal offence, you might be deported.

      They should all be protected characteristics along with things like sexuality, disability and sexual preferences.

      Sure, but what if you're claiming asylum because your sexuality/sexual preference puts you at risk of persecution in your home country. And then there's evidence that the asylum seeker lied about their preference. So as an example, someone who claims they're gay and face persecution, but gets convicted of raping females in the UK. So two crimes, the rape, and lying on their asylum application.

      Why should they be allowed to remain?

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      I'm not sure I agree that immigration status is irrelavant when sentencing, because deportation for serious crimes is an option.

    7. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

      Re: What has immigration status got to do with criminal punishment?

      "In no case, however, should the criminal's race, nationality or immigration status be allowed to be considered in the decision."

      I don't think you quite grasp the us-vs-them wedge which is needed to pry people away from their morality.

  4. Lis

    I was going to

    insert a quote from the article. Instead I will just say…

    IT WILL BE ABUSED.

    For example, in the “we hate so will control women” states, how long before someone decides to photograph women entering an abortion clinic, then using this system to identify them? About 5 minutes I reckon.

    The rules and regulations will mean zilch. Ask a policeman…

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I was going to

      The law change doesn't pertain to private individuals. Also, the purpose of facial recognition in this context isn't identification (feeding a photo into a database to get a name) but rather detection (using existing photos to sound an alert when a live camera thinks it has spotted the desired individual).

      It's quite easy for a private individual to buy the software to do this though there would be legal issues if they did data collection off their private property. Most enterprise level CCTV VMSs support both alerts when a flagged individual is detected and the ability to search prior recordings for a particular individual. I've personally seen the latter used (albeit across the pond) at a large industrial site to handle a scrap metal thief. They were given a light slap on the wrist by the "justice" system for the initial theft but found the mere fact that they were dobbed in to be a grave personal insult. The security team even put together a gag reel of them 'accidentally' wandering back on to the site and pretending to be lost when an alerted guard located them with inexplicable speed.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: I was going to

      You seem to be somewhat confused.

      A new law in the UK will have absolutely zero affect on the US.

      Some would say that has been kinda the point these last 250 years or so ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I was going to

        Just possibly they are referring to the second part of the article discussing reversing facial recognition bans in the US?

  5. Howard Sway Silver badge

    Officials called for "daily monitoring of individuals subject to immigration control"

    Isn't everyone subject to immigration control?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Officials called for "daily monitoring of individuals subject to immigration control"

      Yes, but first we have to go through performative cruelty for specific groups, one by one. They want to see how far right we can push that Overton window, it's an election winner.

    2. Martin-73 Silver badge

      Re: Officials called for "daily monitoring of individuals subject to immigration control"

      Not if i can help it. I refuse to co-operate with them and will actively get in their way and make their life more difficult. There's nothing they can do, they're not even a legitimate organization

  6. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Collapse

    Am I the only one who sees this as a collapse of the state?

    We pay a ton of money for Border Force and all they are good at is destroying parcels.

    So how are they fixing it? A yeah let Border Force de facto become Border Farce and spend even more of our money to watch the mess they have created.

    No accountability. Just patch things up with more authoritarianism that benefit private corporations.

    General Elections can't come soon enough.

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Collapse

      They really can't..

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Collapse

      "General Elections can't come soon enough."

      Whoever you vote for you always get a politician.

      Unfortunately we need a candidate party capable of forming a competent government before a general election will stand a chance at fixing anything.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Collapse

        The reality is that this is not possible. The groups that de facto have power and influence will destroy any movement that works against their interest.

        Only realistic thing we can do in a de facto two party system is kick out the cohort that is incompetent and vote in someone who has not yet proven to be incompetent.

        The disaster that is in the making, is when the two parties have more or less the same goals only slightly different means to achieve them. Then no matter who you vote for you get more or less the same result.

        What worries me is that the official opposition has backed the government in many areas and only opposed it on things that don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

        Ok I am waffling. Just wanted to say that either way we are screwed...

        1. Snowy Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: Collapse

          Given how rabid and intrusive the press is at times we get the politician that can stand that "heat" rather than normal people who sometimes make mistakes.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Collapse

            This is exacerbated by the likes of some commentards here and elsewhere whose immediate attitude to anyone in politics is that they're unscrupulously corrupt and only in it for their own self-interest. Oddly enough it never occurs to them that they might, as such principled individuals, go into politics to make an improvement. Maybe that's because they realise that the likes of themselves would immediately brand them as unscrupulously corrupt and only in it for their own self-interest.

            1. tiggity Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              Though given the abuse and outright lies (e.g. the antisemitism slurs) a principled, not in it for themselves politician got* (notably from the media and from the labour organisation and many labour MPs) there's a reason you do not get many principled politicians in the UK. As soon as it looks like they might have a chance of making a difference they are targeted from all sides.

              * Corbyn was too nice a guy to succeed in the backstabbing world of politics & should have lawyered up hard to kill all the AS (and other **) lies at their inception

              ** the most absurd, given Corbyns long standing criticism of Putin were all the tool of the Russian slurs, when the Tories are awash in Russian money.

              Disclosure - not a labour party member, I generally vote green (when its on the ballot paper as where I live stick a blue rosette on anything and it will win (so long as its stuck on something white) & this a vote that counts for zero in FPTP) but did think Corbyn principled (also liked his green new deal policies)

            2. ThatOne Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              > Oddly enough it never occurs to them that they might, as such principled individuals, go into politics to make an improvement.

              Being clearly targeted here, I have to respond that, first of all, I'm neither rich, nor have the backing of some wealthy company/organization, so I would have a snowball's chance in hell to get anywhere. Secondly, I have better and more interesting things to do.

              You see, politics isn't (as it should) a higher calling where you gladly sacrifice your career prospects to serve the community. It's a high stakes rat race where the kind and the honest don't last long, there is too much money involved. And please, don't take my word for it, just look for yourself...

              BTW, I know a couple politicians personally, friends I've known from before they rose to relative power. And I can only confirm that power corrupts, unfortunately very efficiently... :-(

            3. Binraider Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              I wouldn't be that judgemental. Though it is clear that certain flavours of politician are unscrupulously corrupt!

              I wouldn't be so unfair to tarnish the whole lot with that brush, not least because I have friends standing as councillors in upcoming local elections in opposition to the flavours that are unquestionably corrupt.

        2. veti Silver badge

          Re: Collapse

          The groups that de facto have power and influence will destroy any movement that works against their interest.

          That's clearly not true, or Brexit would never have been contentious. Either it would have died stillborn, or it would have passed overwhelmingly.

          Electorally, I recommend picking a party and getting involved in it. For all the talk about "power and influence", "big money", "dark money" etc., there is still real political power to be had by committing actual time. Every party needs people who will do that, and it will generally bend (at least somewhat) to accommodate them.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Collapse

            >That's clearly not true, or Brexit would never have been contentious.

            It just means Sky News's owner has more power than the FT's owner

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Collapse

            Have you ever been to work meetings and found that there are a few individuals present who will drag it into the mire by finicking about minor details as far off topic as possible with everyone else losing the will to live? I rather think the average grass-roots party setup will be a magnet to them. Commit time? It would be a time sink.

            1. veti Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              All I'm saying is, if you can't be bothered to make yourself heard, you shouldn't be too surprised - or indignant - when those who can, get to set the agenda.

              But it's your choice. Don't try to tell yourself you're powerless, because there is something you could do. You're choosing not to do it.

        3. Martin-73 Silver badge

          Re: Collapse

          Not waffling, you are correct. This is why corbyn and the right wing press absolutely tore into Corbyn. Because he was a decent person with a chance of winning. So they had to make it so he didn't.

          1. LogicGate

            Re: Collapse

            As an outsider, it seems to me that the biggest problem with Corbyn was Corbyn.

            --Presenting no alternative to brexit, because he himself was a closet brexiteer.

            --Refusing to deal with hatred towards minorities, because these were the wrong (or "right) minorities being hated..

            --Publishing manifesto's that were so far reaching that theywere either seen as daydreaming or as "socialist revolution", depending on where you stand yourself..

            The man may be a decent chap, but him running for Labor in 2019 was a disaster for the UK.

            edit: Spelling & clarity

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              Agreed. While I still agree with some of his points, even my hard left friends now agree he would have made a terrible leader. Politics is the art of compromise, and it's not something he can do.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Collapse

              mmm, looks like you fell for the media bollocks.

              Nice demonstration of how the demonisation worked, thank you.

              1. LogicGate

                Re: Collapse

                My sources were left wing.

                They were also pulling their hair out in desperation.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Collapse

                  they may call themselves that, but more like blairite red tories.

                  1. LogicGate

                    Re: Collapse

                    Nope :)

                    Still.. even European media was wondering why Corbyn was doing things his way...

              2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

                Re: Collapse

                Nice circular argument you've got there. (Apparently anyone who disagrees with you proves the effectiveness of the brainwashing.)

              3. Martin-73 Silver badge

                Re: Collapse

                Absolutely, left wing doesn't mean 'slightly left of centre' which is what modern labour peeps seem to think.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Collapse

            "Because he was a decent person with a chance of winning."

            I rest my case. We need a party with a chance of fixing things. Corbyn had about as much grasp of reality as the Moggies on the other side. Starmer was not a great success running the CPS which doesn't reassure me that he'd make a good PM.

            The current Tory leadership contest I find staggering: I'd have thought that they might have realised that what they need is that rarest of things, a safe pair of hands. They still haven't grokked that.

            LibDem voters just want to be a party of protest against whatever government is in power. When Clegg did the responsible thing by joining a coalition in the aftermath of the Brownomics debacle they punished him at the next election.

            1. Jason Bloomberg

              Re: Collapse

              When Clegg did the responsible thing by joining a coalition in the aftermath of the Brownomics debacle they punished him at the next election.

              Clegg was punished for selling out on the promise which had secured his success. Or, more correctly, selling out without seemingly putting up any fight.

              The perception at the time was that he had utterly failed at the first test of holding Tories to account. The party's subsequent poor showing was a reflection of the huge disappointment in him.

              1. Korev Silver badge

                Re: Collapse

                > The perception at the time was that he had utterly failed at the first test of holding Tories to account.

                Brexit wouldn't have happened with the LibDems in the government.

                1. Jason Bloomberg

                  Re: Collapse

                  Brexit wouldn't have happened with the LibDems in the government.

                  I am not convinced of that though, as a Lib-Dem voting Remoaner who proudly states "European" as nationality, I would like to believe it were true.

                  Clegg was the one calling for an in-out referendum with the hope of silencing the EU-haters. Would Cameron have held the 'stupidest referendum ever' if Clegg had not pushed for it, had instead gone along with just ignoring the populists and hard right agitators?

                  Clegg would have called that referendum if Lib-Dems had been the party in power.

                  Maybe there would have been a better case presented for remaining, they would almost certainly have stood by it being the 'advisory referendum' as actually intended, but we will never know how that would have panned-out.

                  The mistake IMO was allowing the referendum; Clegg and Lib-Dems were the ones wanting it.

                  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                    Re: Collapse

                    >The mistake IMO was allowing the referendum;

                    That's the problem with democracy - the fscking stupid voters

                  2. EvilDrSmith

                    Re: Collapse

                    Cameron appears to have believed the polls that said Brexit supporters were all Tory voters, and that therefore a load of votes would be lost to UKIP.

                    Since the Tories couldn't win outright in 2010 after the financial melt down, it followed that the Conservative party would do even worse in 2015, if a load of their votes went to UKIP.

                    Promising a referendum on EU membership was supposed to retain those votes, and keep the Conservatives as the largest party. I believe Cameron expected to go in to a second period of coalition with the Lib-dems - at which point Cameron would 'attempt' to honour the referendum pledge and Clegg would have vetoed it.

                    Of course, what we all now know is that it was actually Labour voters that were most in favour of Brexit, so the referendum pledge boosted the Conservatives to an outright win.

                    While the Lib-Dem's response to any call for a referendum on individual EU treaties did seem to be to support a referendum on membership, I always saw that as a way to say no to the idea of a vote on the individual treaties, rather than any actual desire to have the vote on membership.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Collapse

          Odd, Trump is exactly what you wanted then. He was not a politician, and his goal was to put American interests first in American government, and as he was not "one of the (politician) boys," both parties refused to work with him. The Republicans didn't start working with him until they campaigned for the midterms and got an earful from their constituents, by which time it was too late as they lost the majority. He still made an amazing amount of headway on his stated goals even with the resistance from both sides.

          It would have been nice if the Dems had elected a similar unknown non-politician, but instead they voted in yet another old white male professional politician.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Collapse

            I assume the thumb down was because I said what the OP wanted was Trump. But really, the name doesn't matter. It would be insert-name-here. If the person isn't one of the polititco boys, both parties and the media will do exactly what was done to Trump. If you aren't part of the machine, you have little chance of making a change. Those in the political machine will call the other side every name in the book on camera, then later the same day go play a game of golf together before splitting a hooker.

            That aside, interesting tidbit about Trump. He and the Clintons were friends before 2016, and it was the Clintons who talked Trump into running. The Clintons failed to realize that while most people think Trump is a pompous ass who should have been spanked more as a child, there's just a mild dislike for him compared to the absolute loathing people have for Hillary Clinton.

    3. jake Silver badge

      Re: Collapse

      They could always build a wall around the UK ... perhaps have the French and Irish pay for it?

      1. veti Silver badge
        1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

          Re: Collapse

          And here I was thinking that your link would lead to one of the many reports noting that the French and Irish have indeed started to enforce border controls (presumably at their own expense), entirely predictably to the detriment of the UK economy.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Collapse

        Dig - a - Moat

        1. ThatOne Silver badge

          Re: Collapse

          It's called The English Channel, has existed for 10000 years and hasn't been very efficient AFAIK.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Collapse

            Really?

            It's been generally quite effective at keeping out the French (with one small failure)

            1. EvilDrSmith

              Re: Collapse

              They weren't French, they were Norsemen taking the long route.

            2. ThatOne Silver badge

              Re: Collapse

              > It's been generally quite effective at keeping out the French

              In the meantime Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and Normans did, repeatedly and quite successfully...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Collapse

      I doubt a GE will fix anything, simply because our choices are poor, and the intertia of the two main parties is too established. Swinging from one side to another whilst blaming the other side is never going to resolve anything.

      1. Binraider Silver badge

        Re: Collapse

        So let's put PR on the table, because it is hopelessly overdue.

        The major unions are backing it. Why isn't Labour. (Because Starmer is closet-Tory!)

        1. Martin-73 Silver badge

          Re: Collapse

          Not so much closet about it....

  7. The_Idiot

    Coming soon...

    'Following on from the resounding success of 'watching' potentially criminal immigrants, your government is rolling this astounding use of technology out to further protect the people - use of certain internet sites will only be permitted after:

    1: Registering your face on our totally unhackable, 100% false positive - er, I mean _no_ false positive database

    and

    2: Scanning your face and driver's licence before clicking to access the page in question.

    What - paranoid? _Moi_?

    1. veti Silver badge

      Re: Coming soon...

      Yep. You'd think, for such an application, it would be easier to scan a fingerprint than a face. (Hey, fingerprint scanning is mature technology with way fewer issues than facial recognition.) But that would be to miss an opportunity to develop new tech, doubtless handing contracts to some useful supporters in the process.

  8. iron Silver badge

    > The data will be shared with the Ministry of Justice

    This is not justice, they should change the name to Ministry of Inhumanity.

    1. jake Silver badge

      That word "Justice" ...

      ... seems to have mutated into having the same meaning as "Retribution".

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: That word "Justice" ...

        You misspelled "victimisation".

        Sometimes all that's needed is some group it's OK to be evil to. Being evil to migrants or criminals is controversial. By intersecting the two sets, it doesn't actually become much less so, but it does double the conviction of your own supporters, and that makes it much easier.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why do Priti Patel and Rishi Sunak need to scan their faces?

    Both are economic migrants* and both are criminal. How would scanning their faces help?

    * they come from England but themselves and their respective families do most of their business aboard, especially in the US where they spend most of their time. Non-domicile for tax evasion reasons.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Didn't PP introduce a rule that if you could obtain another citizenship you can be deported for committing a crime?

      Rishi can presumably get an Indian spousal visa, I don't know what Uganda's immigration rules are on offspring but presumably she would be happy to stay in sunny Rwanda while it's sorted out

  10. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    I hate being wrong

    I thought the country's politicians couldn't get any worse.

    1. ratcatcher67

      Re: I hate being wrong

      yet yesterday Fishy Rishi didnt think stamping out M Rape gangs were worth his time.

  11. Snowy Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Better than being locked up.

    Given this thing will need some kind of network connection why not just give them a phone a video call them.

    You could even install some software that when you get a miss-call will send a message saying where they are.

    Add some "extra" circuits that will send location data when the phone is off to, should not be too hard.

    If your out without your phone it is back to prison for you.

    A watch is going to be rubbish, what happens when the battery runs out. Can you even take it off to recharge it?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Better than being locked up.

      Private Eye have been reporting that they are already doing this with the unemployed.

      They have to be available when the Job Centre calls... they wait, no call comes, but the Job Centre manages to flag them as 'missed calls' and there are threats to take away their benefits... and all the while they are unable to be looking for work as they have to be available to take those (phantom) calls!

      1. ThatOne Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Better than being locked up.

        If you can't eliminate unemployment, eliminate the unemployed!

    2. ratcatcher67

      Re: Better than being locked up.

      Now you're just down their rabbit hole..Alice

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    migrants with criminal convictions

    as usual, first they came for migrants with criminal convictions...

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: migrants with criminal convictions

      That's ridiculous it won't be extended to voters like me

      Just criminals, and the unemployed, and anyone on benefits and teenagers and people from the North....

    2. ratcatcher67

      Re: migrants with criminal convictions

      Obviously they didnt rape your child...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Transportation 2.0

    Rwanda, Falklands, etc.

    Send them in irons, use old leaky transports, whips optional*

    * OHS rules may differ in your location

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Transportation 2.0

      Australia comes up with plan to deal with migrants/criminals by dumping them on a godforsaken island on the other side if the world

  14. Winkypop Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Tories

    They love a bit of crime and punishment.

    Must remind them of boarding school days.

    Oooh Matron!

  15. Mike 137 Silver badge

    Technical question

    How will scanning their faces any number of times a day "[allow] officials to track known criminals' whereabouts? My face doesn't change when I go to the shops (unless of course they're out of what I wanted to buy).

    If one were cynical, this might seem to be another example of being "as unfriendly as possible to foreigners" on the same lines as shipping migrants to Rwanda. Trump just wanted a wall between the US and Mexico. It seems the UK 'Home Office' would now like a virtual wall all round the island. Unfortunately, that could well make life on this tiny island unsupportable (we're already short of seasonal labour in important businesses such as food production). Alternatively, such threats might just be vote catchers to the extreme right wing of the electorate. We'll have to wait and see...

    1. teebie

      Re: Technical question

      It's "hostile environment" rather than "solution to some sort of problem"

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Technical question

      I presume the face scan is so that you don't just leave the watch at home.

      I presume also that the authorities choose (randomly) the 5 times that you are required to submit a scan. Otherwise it isn't much of a deterrent.

      1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

        Re: Technical question

        "I presume the face scan is so that you don't just leave the watch at home."

        +1

        Or, if you are supposed to be somewhere else, let someone else wear it. False negatives are "no problem", since a visit from immigration will be (from one perspective) a nice opportunity to reinforce the desirability of compliance.

  16. charlieboywoof

    Good

    Then get rid of them, freeing up education, police and the health system

    1. seven of five

      Re: Good

      ...of people working there.

    2. Nick Ryan Silver badge

      Re: Good

      Then get rid of them, freeing up education, police and the health system
      Our education, police and health system would be much better served by getting rid of racists and various other 'ists.

      1. ratcatcher67

        Re: Good

        Not fair on the muslims though..

  17. Binraider Silver badge

    Oh come on, let's just be done with it and go the whole hog with microchipping individuals. Plenty of examples in sci fi (Minority Report, Gattaca), and sci-fact (pet microchips)

    The black market it would create for personal mods to obscure location, etc. would be very lucrative, I'm sure.

    Maybe I should not be so vocal in deploying such Orwellian-dystopia methods. It may give the leadership ideas. You can be sure that if they thought they could get away with it, then they would.

  18. Flywheel
    Facepalm

    Power

    If it's anything like my Apple Watch they'll need to remember to not be away from a power socket at any time. Or maybe the Gov will give the wearers a belt-mounted power pack as well, just in case.

  19. ColinPa Silver badge

    Easy solution...

    test it out on MP's and the Special Advisers until all the bugs are out of the system.

  20. ratcatcher67

    So the UK expects criminals to comply LOL.....

    Theyre criminals FFS and its costs £5.8 billion per year in the UK to accomodate them..

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