back to article Russia fines Google $374 million for letting the truth about Ukraine be told

A Russian court fined Google $374 million on Monday for its failure to remove prohibited content, according to the country's internet watchdog Roskomnadzor. The Tagansky District Court of Moscow took exception to YouTube content it claimed contained "fakes about the course of a special military operation in Ukraine" and …

  1. Empire of the Pussycat

    google's response

    Pthhhbbbttt!

    1. DXMage

      Re: google's response

      Your mother smells of elderberries!!!

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: google's response

      A more fitting response would be a rather truthful "You needs us more than we need you, but suit yourself. Goodbye". Then make like a cat, put the tail straight up and walk away, never looking back.

      Until the inevitable regime change, of course.

      1. CrackedNoggin

        Re: google's response

        Change is coming - but what comes next could get worse.

  2. wolfetone Silver badge

    "Putin declares he'll make his own Googles now, thanks"

    Already there. They have Yandex and DuckDuckGo.

    1. MacroRodent

      Yandex

      Yandex, yes. But I believe DuckDuckGo is American.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: Yandex

        DDG has (or at least had until very recently) a strong relationship with Yandex.

        They can say they've paused it, but you don't turn off deep integration like that overnight.

        1. NanoMeter

          Re: Yandex

          DDG use Bing and Yahoo! as search engines. They probably only use Yandex for search on Russian sites.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Yandex

            DDG definitely used to use Yandex in the West- well, at least in the UK- but they rather obviously shifted to Bing a while back. (I'd guess around six months to a year ago and before the current invasion).

    2. badflorist

      Who needs Yahoo, MSN or DuckDuckGo when Google is already there.

      "...mostly left Russia except for free services like Google search, YouTube, Gmail, Maps, Android and Play."

      So, "mostly left" the multi-billion dollar core, company defining products.

      Next up: how can you be all right if you have a left hand, left eye, left leg, left ear, left arm, left....

      1. TimMaher Silver badge
        Happy

        Re:- left....

        ....behind?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: left....

          That would be 'cheek' then :)

    3. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

      "Putin declares he'll make his own Googles now, thanks"

      with blackjack! and hookers!

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Gosh, really ?

    "Not just restrictions but the almost-complete closure of access to foreign high-tech products is being deliberately, intentionally used against our country"

    I wonder why.

    Might it have something to do with the fact that you entertain Soviet-era fantasy about how your country is managed and what is going on in it ?

    Maybe if you stopped murdering journalists who are just doing their job and face reality, things might start going for the better ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Gosh, really ?

      "murdering journalists who are just doing their job and face reality"

      The most dangerous places to be journalists are allies of the west.

      A US citizen was recently murdered using "several well aimed single shots" while clearly marked in press gear.

      A Australian Citizen was to be murdered in London, and is now to be supplied to the same people who intended to murder him.

      If you live in Russia, why are you supposed to be okay with a bunch of nutters massacring people on your border? [LPR / DPR ] vs West Ukraine(Kiev) has been running for eight years now, and it's gone too far to not pick a side.

      Russia has picked [ LPR / DPR ] the Americans have picked Kiev, and approximate 1/3rd of the world is standing back with lips curled in disgust at the highly propagandised reporting or omissions.

      1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        Interesting set of comments - references and/or full citations please?

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          I gather that it's a bit difficult to get full citations in Moscow at this point in time.

          1. Jedit Silver badge
            Joke

            "it's a bit difficult to get full citations in Moscow at this point in time."

            Maybe he should Google them?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          The claim is "The most dangerous places to be journalists are allies of the west."

          The most dangerous place is US allied Mexico [1] [2].

          The claim is "A US citizen was recently murdered using "several well aimed single shots" while clearly marked in press gear." [3]

          The claim is "A Australian Citizen was to be murdered in London, and is now to be supplied to the same people who intended to murder him."[4]

          The Question posed was "If you live in Russia, why are you supposed to be okay with a bunch of nutters massacring people on your border?" [5]

          The claim is "[LPR / DPR ] vs West Ukraine(Kiev) has been running for eight years now, and it's gone too far to not pick a side." [6]

          Russia has picked [ LPR / DPR ] the Americans have picked Kiev, and approximate 1/3rd of the world is standing back with lips curled in disgust at the highly[7] propagandised[8] reporting[9] or omissions

          Also Bandera - that turd needs explaining no matter how much glitter is poured atop it. [10]

          [1] https://www.statista.com/chart/1181/deadliest-countries-for-journalists

          [2] The next worst place on the list is Ukraine, another ally of the US.

          [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/24/shireen-abu-aqleh-palestinian-journalist-killed-by-israeli-bullet-un-says

          [4] https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/julian-assange-cia-kidnap-plot-yahoo-news-b1930759.html

          [5] https://iphronline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Joint-report-on-cross-border-shelling-June-2016.pdf

          [6] https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

          [7] https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.324N64Y

          [8] https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.32D27QB

          [9] https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.32BY8HN

          [10] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-cult-of-stepan-bandera/

          1. Jedit Silver badge
            Mushroom

            "The next worst place on the list is Ukraine, another ally of the US"

            Yes, Ukraine is a very dangerous place for journalists to be in 2022, what with being an active war zone and all.

            In a war of aggression started by Russia.

            Who are murdering journalists in the country.

            Which is the exact accusation you're trying to deflect.

            Good grief, could you be any more transparently a Russian asset?

            Oh, wait, you went on to spontaneously mention the Banderites. So, yes, you could.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "The next worst place on the list is Ukraine, another ally of the US"

              Not in favours of being pissed on and told it's raining = Russian Asset.

              1. Casca

                Re: "The next worst place on the list is Ukraine, another ally of the US"

                Hiding behind Anonymous Coward and making accusations about what happens in the rest of the world = Russain assets

                Poor little russian bot

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        "The most dangerous places to be journalists are allies of the west."

        That isn't even close to being true. If you hold a dissenting view from the Kremlin, Russia is a dangerous place to be a regular citizen, let alone a journalist.

        In most western allied countries, violence against journalists makes the news. In Russia it's just Tuesday.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          It's not close to being true, it is true. See footnote 1 on my reply to OP.

          Murder of Journalists by US allies is fine and dandy, Here's an article on how one ally treats journalists, including those with American citizenship. https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/not-just-shireen-how-israel-has-attacked-journalists-and-newsrooms-palestine

          1. ravenviz Silver badge

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            "See footnote 1 on my reply to OP"

            TL;DR

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              I accept your capitulation and abject surrender.

      3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        "LPR" and "DPR" have always been Russian-supported pseudo-states, created as part of Putin's stated aim of preventing democracy in Ukraine.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          LPR/DPR are places where the people living there decided they wanted to vote for independence, you know like Scotland.

          The Kiev regime, spent the last eight years attacking them, incidently can you explain how "Russian Supported" is supposed to reduce the rights of the people of that area to vote for self determination, seems a lazy racist dog whistle, "Russia Man Bad".

          Russia didn't even recognise LPR/DPR declaration of independence until early this year, when LPR/DPR/RF entered into an mutual defense treaty.

          The people living in LPR/DPR have had water cut off, and are subjected to shelling of schools/hospitals/civilian centres by the Kiev regime.

          Frankly Russia should be helping them, and so should we, not be suppling arms to nutjobs in Kiev to attack people in LPR/DPR.

          Now, I cited my claims, so cite yours.

          1. Esme

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            Really? I check media from a wide range of sources (incuding RT), and bewteen them, they tend to be keen on reporting about places where tragic things are happening, such as civil wars, atrocities against civilians, etc.

            Funny thing is, whilst I'd heard abut lots of other things - situation in Yemen, Rwanda, attacks on albinos in parts of Africa, Chnese Sinificationof ethnic minorites, entrenched racial discrimination in the USA, UK troops convucted for war crimes whilst on deplyment etc, etc - not once di anything crop up about Ukraine attacking anyone in eastern Ukraine - until Feb 2022, when Russian diplomats started screaming about it, and claiming "the West" had been ignoring it.

            The same Russian diplomats who have been caught in numerous egregrious and contradictory lies, spouting frankly nonsensical counterfactuals. The same diplomats who complained about Ukraine supposedly not complying with an agreement when Russia had already breached the UK Charter multiple times, to whit, the invasion of soverign states.

            For example - Putin claims that Ukraine is not a real country. When the USSR collapsed, the rules of the Russian Federation allowed for states within the former USSR to apply for, and be granted, independence, ie: to become sovereign states. Ukraine so applied and was recognised by the world, including Russia, as a sovereign state. Russia clearly has no qualms about breaking not only international law, in that it invades sovereign nations whenever its leaderships feels they want to, but it has no qums about breaking Russian law either.

            Further example - Russia claims that it is Ukrainians killing Ukrainians, and that the Russian military is only making precision attacks against Ukrainian military targets. Well, if Ukaine was so intent on attacking its own citizens, why would it wait until Russia invades to start doing so? It could have done so any time it liked, for one thing, but for another - it is not a credible claim. As for the Russia using precision attacks - that's complete bollocks, and there are mountains of evdence to show that the Russian military is so poorly rquipped and trained that it probably counts any shell that doesnt land on Moscow as a precision attack. )oh, and let's not forget about Putin's deliberate bombing of several flats in Moscow in order to blame them on Chechen terrorists as a pretext to invade Chechnya)

            Then there's the whole "de-Nazification of Ukraine" thing = this from a country whose armed forces are daily targeting and murdering and abusing foreign civilians very much as if they are using the Waffen SS as exemplars. Again, there is mountains of evidence of this, despite not merely implausible but actually impossible claims by Russian leaders and diplomats.

            Do I think Ukrainian = good, Russian = bad? Not in general, no. I don't doubt that there's the odd bad'un in Ukrainejust as there is in every country. And I don't doubt that the average Russian is a decent sort that just wants to get on and have a hopefully happy ife, same as the rest of us. But the Russian regime - THAT is where the problem lies.

            Decades if not centuries of corruption in the various Russian regimes have resulted in Putins Mafia-esque regime. The country which was supposed to be the worlds second superpower, and with a military capable of quickly crushing the armed forces of any non-superpower have come a cropper in Ukraine. Why? Because of officers overreporting unit strengths, funds intended for maintenance and mdernisation fo equipment mysteriously vanishing , raw conscripts that havent even had a decent amount of training being told they are going to a training exercise in Belarus but actually thrown into combat lacking warm clothing, adequate food and adequate weaponary and ammunition for the job.

            Yep, the USA also seems to feel it can and should throw its weight about whenever it wishes, if the last century is anythng to go by, but (a) I cant recall it ever having systematically targeting civilians instead of military targets, (b) it doesnt threaten journalists with 15 years of imprionment if they say something that the government doesnt like. I have been and am highly critical of the USA's over-inflated view of itself; an arsenal of democracy it may be, but a shining example of democracy it is not, IMHO. But in any case, two wrongs do not make a right. And, if Russias stated claims about why it intervened in Ukraine are tru, why has it so blatantly inconsistently lied abot just about everything to do with its invasion of Ukraine since?

            If Russians feel upset that people in Europe and our allies don#t believe Russian claims, tjat is the fault f the Rusian leadership. They could have brught the outrages they claimed were occurring against ethnic Russians in Donbas to teh attention of the worlds press, and requested tat the UN and international humanitarian agencies look into the matter and do something about it. They did not. Instead, Putin took it upon himself to order the Russian military to invade Ukraine and then started telling the rest of the world stories about why he felt they had to do so. To date, I have seen no evidence that his claims are true. Like his boyfriend Trumps claims abut a "stolen election", Putin told lies to try to get what he wanted, and is telling lies to try to cover up why he wasn't successful. He should've stuck to a criminal career, because he's utterly crap at leading a nation or directing a war. And the Russian people deserve far, far, better from its leadership than Putin and his crnies are capable of delivering.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Really? [snip]

              I guess you might try reading more widely,

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

              https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

              https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

              https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/

              This should establish the world outside of your bubble was aware of Ukraine prior to this year.

              I highly recommend Mearsheimer who has a great primer on the roots of the civil war.

              The same Russian diplomats [snip] complained about Ukraine [snip] not complying with an agreement [snip].

              The agreement is the Minsk accords, which negotiated a ceasefire to the war you’ve not heard of, but funnily enough, have heard of the ceasefire agreements.

              https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-are-minsk-agreements-ukraine-conflict-2022-02-21/

              Russia is not in breach of the UN charter, they invoked their article 51 right to mutual self-defence, Russia is by the book, as you can surely tell by now, you are not well informed on this matter, perhaps do some research.

              “Russia's justification of its invocation of article 51 is based on its recognition of the DPR & LPR as independent states, combined with articles 3 and 4 of the treaties "of friendship and cooperation and mutual assistance" (Luhansk, Donetsk) ratified by the State Duma on February 22nd, which enshrines a commitment to mutual defence. The UN Charter explicitly recognises the right of collective self-defence in Article 51:”

              https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/71675/on-what-grounds-did-vladimir-putin-invoke-article-51-of-the-un-charter-for-self

              For example - Putin claims [snip].

              Further example - Russia claims [snip]

              Well, if Ukaine was so intent on attacking its own citizens, [snip]

              This the hallmark of the uninformed, it's not about Putin, Russia is not Putin.

              As for the Russia using precision attacks [snip] I'm can't respond to all the bluster, especially since I didn't make that claim.

              Then there's the whole "de-Nazification of Ukraine" [snip] “Stepan Bandera Avenue” leads up to the place where tens of thousands of Jews were murdered by OUN thugs. Why would a non-nazi failed state name a road after a Nazi collaborator other than the obvious reason, they thought he was "national hero".

              Yep, the USA [snip].

              The US is not a democracy, it has nuked, raped, murdered, napalmed, and cluster bombed it’s way across the planet, only people who see the people destroyed by the US as lesser people could suggest otherwise. A genocidal settler colony in its founding and a force for evil all around the world, supporting Apartheid in Palestine, and South Africa. Responsible for death and destruction, and very little of value in the world.

              As a non-bigot I tend to sperate the 300 odd millon yanks from their government, and don't say that racist zionist biden is America.

              If Russians [snip] I don’t imagine they care what we think.

              You are thoroughly propagandized, to the point that you ignore the nazi’s the evidence, in 2018 the idea that Nazi were in Ukraine was not hidden - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine/0000017f-e080-d7b2-a77f-e3870e1c0000

              Maybe you just need to step outside of your bubble a little, watch news in a language other than USAian.

              I'm sure that Russian outfit Reuters has a slant on it.

              Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

              As Ukraine’s struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law enforcement agencies.

              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUKKBN1GV2TY

              1. sabroni Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                When someone posts sources and makes a clear argument?

                Downvote and run away.

                That really helps your argument.

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                Russia is not in breach of the UN charter, they invoked their article 51 right to mutual self-defence

                This is tautological: Russia "recognised" the republics as separate countries and then invaded a sovereign country in mutual self-defence.

                And if you're going to talk about the Minsk agreement, how about the agreement around Ukraine's secession from the Soviet Union which Russia guaranteed to honour?

                No one is claiming the Ukrainian government is perfect. No one is claiming the West is acting in any other way than "enlightened self-interest". But those things a far cry from Russia brutal invasion and butchery.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  Can you understand Russia in a frame of reference which doesn't invoke "Peter the Great" or the USSR?

                  Firstly Russia didn't "invade" anybody, Russia came to the aid of the LPR and DPR in a military alliance, which is just fine and dandy according to the UN, and the US's Wolfowitz doctrine.

                  The LPR / DPR have been attacked for the last eight years, so coming to their defense is completely the proper thing to do, and in a world with some justice, we would be allies also.

                  No one is claiming the Ukrainian government is perfect. Europe most corrupt country which has a massive Nazi problem.

                  Far-right protesters in Ukraine demand Israel apologize for communism

                  The far-right activists called on Israel and the Jews to assume responsibility specifically for Holodomor, a famine that killed millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s.

                  https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/far-right-protesters-in-ukraine-demand-israel-apologize-for-communism-654711

                  No one is claiming the West is acting in any other way than "enlightened self-interest". This is not in our self interest, it's in the interest of the American arms establishment, and everybody else including the Ukrainian people are just grist to the mill.

                  But those things a far cry from Russia brutal invasion and butchery. Russia has been loving and gentle compared to the behaviour of NATO in Iraq / Libya, Syria.

                  Over a million dead iraqi babies and you want to bitch about the Russians who so far have captured a shitload of people "alive", rather than cluster bombing them.

                  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    I'm not going to defend the invasions by the West of Afghanistan or Iraq: I've protested against both. Syria is a mess that could have been avoided but Russia is more culpable than NATO both in the munitions supplied and in the aggression carried out including the targetting of hospitals.

                    Libya was yet another example of failing to think things through: getting rid of Gaddafi was probably unavoidable but more thought should have gone into what happens next than just hoping oil and gas would continue to flow.

                    Russia has been using cluster munition throughout the campaign in Ukraine.

                    The assertion that LPR and DPR have been attacked for the last eight years is not credible. They were never sovereign and Russian military and SFB were there from the start. Russia's acknowledgement of them was the necessary figleaf to cover the invasion, which, even if you think of it as coming to their aid doesn't explain the attacks on Kiev, Odessa, Mykolaiv, Kherson, etc.

                    Ukraine does, as do many European countries, have problems with the far right. But it is wrong to extrapolate from that and say there is a "massive" problem with Nazis. That is nonsense in a country with an openly Jewish president and it's the Russians who've destroyed the holocaust memorials.

                    Russia has its own "Nazi" problem as demonstrated by the assertion that Ukrainians don't exist as a separate group. It's not me making comparisons with Peter the Great and the USSR, it's Vladimir Putin and the Russian nationalists and their talk of "New Russia". That really could come straight out of Mein Kampf!

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      The magical openly Jewish President.

                      Firstly He's a Zionist, who doesn't identify a Religious Jew, in other words, he's comfortable with Apartheid, and is personally an enthusiastic cheerleader calling openly for the Genocide of the Palestinian People.

                      The fact of him being okay with the racist brutalization of another people aside, which by the way is enough to mark him as pond scum, doesn't mean that the people who voted for him are Zionists.

                      He was elected based on bait and switch, simply put, he would end the civil war that has raged for eight years before you deigned to be propagandized into noticing. His Party was named after the TV show he was in (Servant of the People), his boss was a local mob guy, https://www.politico.eu/article/volodomyr-zelenskiy-ihor-kolomoisky-the-comedian-and-the-oligarch-ukraine-presidential-election/

                      In short, they didn't care who stopped the Nazi Battalions that BBC Newsnight interviewed the year before his election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ

                      So Nazis were there in 2018, in 2019 a Jewish guy get elected and what, the Nazis vanish. Like Dracula confronted with a smear of garlic?

                      How did the election of a black man in the US affect the numbers of Nazis that went on rioting during his two terms in office, and carried on trucking when the Mango Moron took office?

                      Does it only work in Ukraine?

                      Does it only work for Jewish people?

                      Does it only work for Comedians?

                      Is it the most trite, reductive, and frankly racist as fuck theory to suggest the Magical Jewish president cured the long-standing, widely reported Nazi problem.

                      Which has big statues of collaborators leading to memorials for the Jews slaughtered by the collaborators.

                      Regular marches celebrating the Nazis - mate really who does that?

                      https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-in-ukraine-attend-marches-celebrating-nazi-ss-soldiers/

                    2. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      I'm not going to defend the invasions by the West of Afghanistan or Iraq: I've

                      protested against both. Syria is a mess that could have been avoided but

                      Russia is more culpable than NATO both in the munitions supplied and in the

                      aggression carried out including the targetting of hospitals.

                      Sorry, no you don't get to start there.

                      The oh we got a few bit wrong here and there is exactly the problem.

                      130 year of occupation of brutal colonisation of Algeria.

                      75 Years of apartheid in Palestine,

                      The Imposition of the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, which was sodding Churchill of all people.

                      Which is imposing famine on yemen, has given us al-Qa'ida, and public beheading, all propped up by us and the US.

                      So again perfectly comfortable imposing brutal conditions on other people they see as lesser, they are not the good guy, face facts.

                      I live here too, I was born here, raised here, if it comes to it I'll fight for my country, and my family here, but the people pulling the strings are not good people, and there is a literal Nazi Army, being funded by people you are aware are personally comfortable have funded apartheid, sponsored fascist dictators, and you want to say "Russia".

                      Russia is on the right side of this conflict, be they ever so disgusting in all areas of their history, on this we are wrong, and they are not.

                    3. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      Libya was yet another example of failing to think things through: getting rid

                      of Gaddafi was probably unavoidable but more thought should have gone into what

                      happens next than just hoping oil and gas would continue to flow.

                      Libya was the threat that Putin carried out, to detonate the petro-dollar and the American stranglehold by selling his oil in a different currency.

                      Iraq was the same threat, Euro instead of the gold backed currency Libya was proposing.

                      The only difference is that Russia is simply able to fight back as they are not unarmed.

                      The Ukraine was the point of the spear, including them Openly trying to get nukes.

                      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/16/ukraine-may-seek-nuclear-weapons-if-left-out-of-nato-diplomat

                      So are they supposed to let the Nazi get nukes ? fuck no, they repeated this line again at the munich security conference in 2022 - at which point his mouth wrote a check his army can't cash.

                      https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14001201000618/Ukraine-Threaens-Rennce-Is-Nn-Nclear-Sas

                    4. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      The assertion that LPR and DPR have been attacked for the last eight years is

                      not credible.

                      They were never sovereign and Russian military and SFB were

                      there from the start. Russia's acknowledgement of them was the necessary

                      figleaf to cover the invasion, which, even if you think of it as coming to

                      their aid doesn't explain the attacks on Kiev, Odessa, Mykolaiv, Kherson, etc.

                      This is rubbish, the people living there have a right to self determination, the referendum was said to be fair, the results reflect the will of the population, who cares what the colonial overlords think. The US doesn't own the world, fuck them, and their opinion of who gets to be free.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

                      These people are a front for the yanks and have been caught out, but they do count the violations of the ceasefire for the war you say is not happening because the yanks don't agree to let them exist.

                      https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683

                      1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                        WTF?

                        Re: Gosh, really ?

                        "This is rubbish, the people living there have a right to self determination, the referendum was said to be fair"

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

                        Are you just betting that people won't bother checking your links?

                        The day before the referendum, it was reported in Ukrainian media that a group of pro-Russian separatists in possession of a 100,000 ballots already marked with a 'yes' vote for the referendum were captured during the ongoing government "anti-terrorist" operation, and that the ballots were seized by government forces. Local news reported that polling in some occupied schools had already begun a day in advance.

                        A campaign of intimidation, beatings, and hostage taking has forced many pro-Ukrainian activists and known opponents of secession to Russia to flee the region, leaving the referendum to take place without any dissent or opposing voices

                        That referendum was the complete opposite of fair and you know it.

                        OSCE Parliamentary Assembly president calls for cancellation of ‘absurd’ referendums in eastern Ukraine

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Gosh, really ?

                          The referendum took place, that's what the link shows.

                          The people living there voted, they don't care what you or the yanks, or I for that matter think.

                          It's a fair bet they wanted to not be exterminated by Kiev for the crime of speaking Russian.

                          It seems likely the outcome accords with the expressed wishes, the Yanks have decided they rule the world, and have decreed it unfair, well bollocks to them.

                          1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                            Mushroom

                            Re: Gosh, really ?

                            "The referendum took place, that's what the link shows."

                            No. The link shows that a totally bogus referendum took place and Russia instated just another puppet state similar to Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

                            "The people living there voted, they don't care what you or the yanks, or I for that matter think."

                            Yanks had nothing to do with it. It was the imperialistic Russia that dictated from start to finish how the referendum took place.

                        2. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Gosh, really ?

                          It was reported in Ukrainian Media - so totally impartial unbiased sources with no dog in the fight /s

                          A lot of rubbish is reported, but the people clearly have spent a lot of time trying to keep the LPR/DPR idea alive for a referendum you claim was rigged.

                          It's such a stupid argument, at every turn the plain facts are ignored, treating the people there as cyphers for Russia, it's so colonial thinking.

                          The People of LPR / DPR don't want to be ruled by nutters, who are bombing them, and telling them they have to stop speaking the language they've used all their lives.

                          It's inexplicable why they might vote to be independent, when they could be cannon fodder for the US empire /s

                          1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                            Mushroom

                            Re: Gosh, really ?

                            "It was reported in Ukrainian Media - so totally impartial unbiased sources with no dog in the fight"

                            It happened in Ukraine, so of course it was reported in Ukrainian media.

                            Of course, if it was posted in any reputable western media you would call it biased as well, unsurprisingly.

                            "A lot of rubbish is reported, but the people clearly have spent a lot of time trying to keep the LPR/DPR idea alive for a referendum you claim was rigged."

                            The whole world knows the referendums were rigged. Only Russia, Syria and North Korea (!) recognise the LPR/DPR as sovereign states, the rest of the world does not. Syrian government in power exists only because Russia supports them, so tit-for-tat there. Norks - who cares what they think in these matters.

                            I posted a link to OSCE where the referendum was described as total bollocks. You too have posted links to their site so you are also considering it a reputable site.

                            I'm done with you.

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Gosh, really ?

                              Good riddance, I don't care if you buy into all the patent rubbish being pumped out at us by the US.

                              I've made my decision on the balance of evidence, you disagree, and good luck to you.

                              What's happening is plain to see, just like Apartheid in Palestine.

                              Eventually the full truth will be more widely known, but enough already has come out to say "hang on a minute".

                              OSCE is a US front org, since it mostly collates reports from the locals and corroborates them. you can mostly trust the stats coming out of it, not the pronouncements so much, since the issue is that they are supposed to be impartial and they are partial to the US, not that the stats they collate are alleged to be inaccurate.

                              It's beyond daft to suggest that the people fighting to not be Ukrainian, had a rigged ballot, because Occam's razor would suggest a ballot which didn't seem to accord with some significant fraction of the population would be unlikely to sustain eight years of fighting to uphold.

                              When you further take into account the language background of that area and the recent laws passed by Kiev making life much more difficult, is it really so hard to understand why you would want to not be part of the country that is making your life a misery.

                              And The Information warfare coming from the US so far has seen literal star wars footage served up as "reporting" https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/russia-ukraine-war-israel-tv-channel-shows-star-wars-clip

                              Think about that for a minute, while deciding voting to not be oppressed is scarcely credible. "Star Wars Clip".

                              Also if you live in England you have the most dishonest government since the previous Tory government, who lie about everything, but on "Foreign Policy" they are straight as an arrow?

                              Really, that's you saying Boris Johnson and the gang of crooks, spivs, scroungers and swindlers are telling you the truth?

                              No, sorry no.

                              Face facts, the Yanks don't care about you, and are happy to use any means to maintain a UniPolar world,

                              including funding, and training a Nazi Army in Europe to Fight Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio Again.

                              1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                                FAIL

                                Re: Gosh, really ?

                                "When you further take into account the language background of that area and the recent laws passed by Kiev making life much more difficult, is it really so hard to understand why you would want to not be part of the country that is making your life a misery."

                                In Kiev you can call the Russian attack a war. In Russia you'll get several years of jail for such grave offence.

                                Duma is about to pass a law where any talk about non-heterosexual relationships cannot be presented in positive or neutral light. Talk about trampling people's rights. Ukraine doesn't seem to have problems with human rights unlike Russia that continues all the bad Soviet traditions.

                                "Also if you live in England you have the most dishonest government"

                                No. I'm Finn living in Finland, as I've earlier stated here. Perhaps your team members failed to pass you the notes...?

                                BUT, earlier on you wrote that you live in England. Now your wording says you are somewhere else.

                                It would be much easier for you to converse here if you didn't have to remember all the earlier lies.

                                "Really, that's you saying Boris Johnson"

                                I've said nothing about BJ. Perhaps you're mistaking me for someone else on another forum?

                                1. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                                  Interestingly having given you a link where the TV is literally showing you Lucasfilm and telling you it's fact, you are trying to change the subject.. Wonder why buddy - besides, I thought you were done..

                                  I'm a Brit, this is UK forum, I assumed you also were a Brit, in England the PM is Johnson, and the are telling us that Ukraine is on the Up and Up.

                                  So the point for clarity since you are not reading in your native language, not impugning your impeccable English, but your comprehension is at fault here: The Liars are telling us to trust them, because "this time, it's true", that is not credible. I.e. "If you live in England" is referencing your abode, not mine.

                                  My Swedish speaking Finn Ex-Wife is about as close as I get to Russia, but thanks..

                                  The US just outlawed Abortion - that's not naff all to do with if there is a fuck ton of propaganda being pumped out by the Information Warfare arms of the US/NATO/UK. Can you explain how star wars footage ends up being broadcast as "news from ukraine"?

                                  I can - they are lying to us.

                                  Is Kiev fighting LPR/DPR to stop them being independent countries, yes - that is patently obvious, even to the clearly propagandized.

                                  Are they allowed the right of self determination under the UN charter - Yes.

                                  Are they allowed to declare independence - Yes

                                  Does a UN member recognize the declaration of Independence - Yes.

                                  Does a country have the right to join Military alliances - Yes.

                                  I'm not saying a single word in defense of Russia as a country/society etc.

                                  They however are on the right side of this conflict.

                                  We have recently passed legistlation allowing the government the legal right to Rape/Torture/Murder you legally. I doubt you heard of it, or have allowed to change your view of the "Freedom Loving West".

                                  There are no good guys. Finland has spent decades helping launder apartheid arms produced in occupied Palestine - so spare me the moralising about Russia.

                                  I married a Finn, I got to get a good look at your lot, I didn't like what I saw. Too many "UberFinns" for my taste.

                                  1. jake Silver badge

                                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                                    "I'm a Brit, this is UK forum"

                                    No, ElReg is not a UK forum. According to ElReg:

                                    "The Register is a leading and trusted global online enterprise technology news publication, reaching roughly 40 million readers worldwide. Our core audience is in America, Asia-Pacific, and the UK. We also have readers hailing from Canada, northern Europe, India, and beyond."

                                    Read it for yourself here.

                                    "The US just outlawed Abortion"

                                    No, the US did NOT just outlaw abortion. The supreme court (lower case on purpose ... I have nothing but contempt for them at the moment) decided it wasn't a right that was in the Constitution, and has left it up to individual States to decide if it should be allowed, or not. Most States still allow it. Some backwards, stuck in the 19th Century states do not.

                                    "I can - they are lying to us."

                                    I think you can't ... I also think you have been hoodwinked, and are cherry picking to support your theory(s). I also rather suspect you have been spending too much time on that side of YouTube ... shouldn't do that, mate, it rots the brain. Which also neatly explains why that starwars footage was run on an obscure Israeli news channel which should have known better. Brain rot in the newsroom is a far more likely theory than mass conspiracy.

                                    As for you last couple paragraphs ... All this angst and pro-Russia propoganda is simply because you're still pissed off at your ex-? WTF, man‽ Step away from the keybr0ad, go outside, sniff the roses. Life's too short ...

                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                                      Okay jake - el-reg is an international forum, mea culpa.

                                      However, my Ex-wife is no uber finn, she'd be mortified at the suggestion, she's a lefty do gooder as all right thinking people should be.

                                      Abortion: perhaps I just don't understand this, so you live in California if memory serves, so if I live there - it's still legal to access healthcare, but if I live in another state, it might not be legal there, and travelling to your state to access that healthcare could put me in legal jeopardy on my return. I don't understand your legal system but it seems like that's made it illegal in some states. I think you are suggesting there is difference between the right to something being protected, and the there being no specific prohibition, thus allowing the local/state level people to ban it by the back door.

                                      Hoodwinked - honestly mate, I really hope so, because as far as I can reasonably conclude, the take by https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine

                                      most closely accords with observable reality. The example of Al Qadia(Pakistan/) and Al Nusra front(Syria) are fairly strongly documented evidence of the US working with Terrorist groups as proxies against non-US subservient states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio - seems to strongly suggest the US is just fine working with Fascists as proxies against Russia. This is a theme include in Latin America, so it's not exactly stretching the bounds of credibility to say the people aligned with the Apartheid regime and the head choppers in Saudi, might not really be all that fussed about human rights in Ukraine, and thus might have another motivation.

                                      Regards youtube - I don't get my "facts" from nutters on the web. There are plenty of non-English language reporting and the difference between that and UK news on a subject is frequently illuminating both in tone and what is omitted.

                                      There exist information warfare divisions of most nation state armies, the US has them and Britain has them, lets assume Russia has the same.

                                      I'm fairly sure that everybody is lying here, but there are some observable facts.

                                      A star wars clip getting broadcast as news was not an accident.

                                      Okay - lets say it was a "test asset", And "misidentifying" this brave Ukrainian girl standing up to the Evil Russian, https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-russia-idUSL1N2V31B9 - Funny enough when it became clear she was someone oppressed by a US aligned state, her picture faded from view.

                                      But that was a mistake too, But the warship https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/01/fake-news-ghost-of-kyiv/

                                      There is a lot of people lying to us right now, and the balance of evidence, which I've cited, much of which comes from western media organizations who seems to have completely disavowed their own stories,

                                      For example the bbc makes a pull quote in this recent piece where essentially they say Putin is making it all up the nazi are exaggerated etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60853404

                                      This is the quote to show Putin is full of it "A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts who settled in Kiev and took the entire Ukrainian people hostage" - even allowing for translation, that's an interesting an nuanced statement which accords with reality.

                                      A. Firstly Azov/C14/Adair/Right Sector are clearly identifiable as a "A gang of neo-nazis and drug addicts".

                                      B. Secondly Those gangs have taken on an official function in the Ukrainian state, including senior positions in the Armed forces and Police in Kiev.

                                      C. Finally, the President doesn't have any power over them.

                                      That's quite a lot, but they are clearly falsifiable propositions,

                                      A. https://williamrisch.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/dmytro-yarosh-leader-of-right-sector-when-80-of-the-country-does-not-support-the-regime-there-cant-be-a-civil-war/

                                      B. "...the defence ministry even made the group’s leader an official adviser..."

                                      https://www.france24.com/en/20150904-ulraine-right-sector-pravyy-sektor-paramilitary-eastern-war-neo-nazi-patriots-revolutionnar

                                      C. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/im-not-a-loser-zelensky-clashes-with-veterans-over-donbas-disengagement.html

                                      So many juicy details for a observant eye

                                      Use of private dwellings as military bases by the Ukraine militias.

                                      The locals not wanting them there, the militias using the locals as human shields..

                                      The president being unable to control them.

                                      So okay, on the other side -the story is Putin is a madman who wants to have a big empire, and that's supposed to be the credible side?

                                      The Israeli press of which I'm not a fan, but they suggest these people are bunch of racist degenerates.

                                      So do others.

                                      "Concerns were raised by a group of more than 40 human rights activists who filed a petition with Israel's High Court of Justice demanding the cessation of the arms deal. According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz[1], the petitioners have argued that these weapons serve forces that openly espouse a neo-Nazi ideology and cite evidence that the right-wing Azov militia, whose members are part of Ukraine's armed forces, and are supported by the country's ministry of internal affairs, is using these weapons."

                                      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180710-rights-groups-petition-israel-to-end-arms-sale-to-neo-nazi-group/

                                      [1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine/0000017f-e080-d7b2-a77f-e3870e1c0000

                                      So what is going on? because this seems rather like the Russians are helping a smaller state who is under attack and fighting for their independence against a bunch of fascists who have basically taken the country hostage.

                                      Lets say that is not the case, why does the press seems to have competely changed it's mind to accord with the US foreign policy position of the day?

                                      What does all of that have to do with my Ex-Wife anyway?

                                  2. Casca

                                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                                    You are a brit and has taken in russias propaganda in full. Good for you. That makes you a total moron.

                                    Can understand why your wife is EX when you spout this kind of shit.

                                    1. GNU SedGawk

                                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                                      Looks like amnesty as well https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

                                      1. GNU SedGawk

                                        Re: Gosh, really ?

                                        https://www.sott.net/article/465139-Zelensky-is-Not-in-Charge-of-Ukraine-Nazis-Are-And-They-Believe-They-Are-on-a-Mission-From-God-to-Derussify-Ukraine-in-Holy-War

                                2. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                                  Ukraine doesn't seem to have problems with human rights

                                  I guess if you exclude large categories of people from being Human that's true.

                                  But let say you include the Roma as being human -

                                  2018

                                  https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/11/23/attacked-and-abandoned-ukraines-forgotten-roma

                                  2021 https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/11/29/radicals-target-roma-people-ukraine

                                  2022

                                  https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2022/02/pray-ukrainian-roma

                    5. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      Ukraine does, as do many European countries, have problems with the far right.

                      But it is wrong to extrapolate from that and say there is a "massive" problem

                      with Nazis. That is nonsense in a country with an openly Jewish president and

                      it's the Russians who've destroyed the holocaust memorials.

                      More lies, utterly undamaged https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sk8byetx9

                      You don't see to get it, we are being subjected to a blitz of english language propaganda, you need to look a bit wider.

                      Now they start to walk back the Lie https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-02/russia-missile-strikes-kyiv-killing-five-near-babyn-yar/100873558

                      Now it's a little better

                      Jewish groups are condemning a Russian strike in Kyiv that hit an area located near a Holocaust memorial.

                      A projectile struck a radio and television tower in Kyiv on Tuesday, according to The New York Times. The tower is in close proximity to the Babyn Yar Holocaust Memorial Center.

                      Now it;s near the memorial and its disrespectful, but "Stepan Bandara Avenue" leading to Babyn Yar is fine /s

                      https://thehill.com/policy/international/596524-jewish-groups-condemn-bombing-of-holocaust-memorial-in-ukraine/

                    6. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      Decent starting point This was published shortly after azov told him to suck out https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/im-not-a-loser-zelensky-clashes-with-veterans-over-donbas-disengagement.html

                      So many juicy details for a observant eye

                      Use of private dwellings as military bases by the ukraine militias.

                      The locals not wanting them there, the militias using the locals as human shields..

                      The president being unable to control them.

                      This comes from the US funded proganda outfit, "Kiev independent"..

                      If you want some insight with sources

                      https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        Russia = LPR/DPR. The world knows that those militias are Russian invaders.

        You are the Nazi invaders.

        You are the ones killing civilians, women, children, and others in Donetsck and Donbas. It's your scorched earth policy, your invasion, your military.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          You are the ones killing civilians, women, children, and others in Donetsck and Donbas. It's your scorched earth policy, your invasion, your military.

          I don't think the scorched earth policy has really started, yet. But I'm curious. Since 2014 Ukraine has fired a lot of artillery, missiles and bombs at targets in Donbas.. Yet haven't killed any civilians? Or..

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Vinnytsia_missile_attacks

          Local officials pointed out that Kalibr missiles are high-precision which indicates that the Russians purposefully targeted civilians.[16] The strike has been labeled as a war crime by officials from multiple countries.

          Which is kinda the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. Missiles seemed to have been targetted on the 'Officers House', or 'concert hall' as the MSM describes it. Which according to Russia, may have been holding a meeting between the UAF and arms dealers.

          But focus on the pram, and the shoe..

          The alternative reality though is potentially more interesting. So if it was true that the target was the meeting, then it was a military target. Even if the arms dealers were civies. If they were also Western arms dealers, it perhaps gets more interesting as Russia was presumably aware of the meeting, and the attendees, and still decided to create some Western casualties.

          And soon after, Zelensky fires his school chum and TV producer, who he'd installed as head of Ukraine's security services. Which may or may not explain why Ukraine's been having a security leak or three. But one of those rather murky incidents where the truth may take time to emerge, along with accurate casualty lists.

          On the plus side, Zelensky's defined war crimes & terrorism again..

          Every day, Russia destroys the civilian population, kills Ukrainian children, directs rockets at civilian objects. Where there is nothing military. What is this if not an open terrorist attack? Inhuman. Country of killers. A country of terrorists"

          See? Ukraine hasn't hit a single civilian structure, dug a single defensive position in a residential neighborhood or killed a single civilian themselves..

          (also why civilians, women and children? The women & children presumbably are civilians, unless they've been conscripted, in which case they're no longer civilians. Don't you know we live in a world of equality, so there's no need to discriminate based on gender or age. Plus you risk misgendering 'women' victims, unless you're sure that's how they self-identified.)

          1. boblongii

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            "I don't think the scorched earth policy has really started, yet"

            You need to get your eyes tested then.

            Your whole post is a pack of ¼-truths, whataboutisms, and deflection in defence of a mass-murderer who has been running Russia for decades and is such a personal coward that he sends out thugs to kill retired spies and people who write rude stories about him. He's a pathetic human being; you probably would get on with him.

            Now go away.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Your whole post is a pack of ¼-truths, whataboutisms, and deflection in defence of a mass-murderer

              So how many Ukrainian civilians have died since their coup in 2014? Zelensky's clearly stated (repeatedly) that 'attacks on civilians' are automatically war crimes.

              So for clarity, are you saying Ukrainian artillery, missiles and bombs haven't killed a single civilian?

              As for the rest, obviously Putin soo hates Ukrainian music that he ordered the deliberate targetting of a concert hall. But that's really the problem with a lot of the Ukrainian/Western propaganda. It makes no military sense to waste expensive missiles on concert halls or shopping malls. Or perhaps the missiles were old stock, after all the one allegedly aimed at the shopping mall had double the warhead size of the one that hit the concert hall, yet did much less damage. Especially given the mall allegedly held '1,000' innocent shoppers at the time.

              (You may also want to look into media & political repression, inlcuding assassinations that have been going on inside Ukraine since 2014. There's a reason it's considered the most corrupt country in Europe..)

              1. Sandtitz Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                "As for the rest, obviously Putin soo hates Ukrainian music that he ordered the deliberate targetting of a concert hall. But that's really the problem with a lot of the Ukrainian/Western propaganda. It makes no military sense to waste expensive missiles on concert halls or shopping malls."

                Yet they do it! Nobody claims that kleptocracy would be efficient.

                Russian operatives have been disastrous from the beginning. Incredible waste of soldiers, tanks and other armored vehicles - not because of the materiel, but the way the were lead into their destruction by weak command and things like unencrypted communications (in 2022) leading to shelling of Russian command posts.

                The tank columns without support were easy pickings for Ukrainian forces. I'm sure you've seen the videos. The sinking of Moskva, their 40+ years old Soviet Union era flag ship showed how sad state the Russian navy is in.

                This is not due to Russia not funding their armed forces, but because a lot of that money ends up lining the pockets of the Oligarchs running the war machine.

                "Or perhaps the missiles were old stock, after all the one allegedly aimed at the shopping mall"

                It is not alleged. The missile was identified as KH-22, and only Russia operates them. This is a Soviet era (again!) highly inaccurate anti-ship missile and therefore "it makes no military sense to waste expensive missiles on concert halls or shopping malls", yet they use them.

                Are you really claiming that all those residential buildings, shopping malls, schools and others hit with Russian missiles were all accidentally misaimed, and Russian forces have not deliberately aimed at them?

                "You may also want to look into media & political repression, inlcuding assassinations that have been going on inside Ukraine since 2014. There's a reason it's considered the most corrupt country in Europe..)"

                What exactly are you trying to justify with these sentences?

                Oh yeah, Russia is even worse than Ukraine according to the Transparency report. Russia is just above Myanmar and below Togo. Nice company.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  It is not alleged. The missile was identified as KH-22, and only Russia operates them. This is a Soviet era (again!) highly inaccurate anti-ship missile and therefore "it makes no military sense to waste expensive missiles on concert halls or shopping malls", yet they use them.

                  Uhuh. You know wiki isn't a reliable source? Ukraine used to operate Kh-22, then probably sold them. Curious why you think a missile designed to hit a carrier or other large warship is 'highly inaccurate' though. It uses INS, just like a Tomahawk, and we've fired plenty of those around the world.

                  Again this is a bias problem. The West only uses 'precision' weapons, Russia uses 'indiscriminate' weapons. So when we hit civilians, it obviously must be because we were aiming at them. But when we do it, it's never a war crime. Should it be?

                  But you're also making the mistake of assuming the mall was the target. Not the large factory or anything in the rail yards behind it. Which is actually where the missile struck. Or why, if there were 1,000 people in the mall and there was a direct hit by a 1,000kg warhead, there were so few casualties. And broken bottles.

                  And again, the media is perhaps ignoring the real story, ie why Russia may have attacked a meeting between Ukrainian and Western defence staff, and if that signals an escalation.. Which the West probably assumes given it evacuated staff based in Kiev not long after.

                  1. Sandtitz Silver badge

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    "Uhuh. You know wiki isn't a reliable source?

                    Which part of the article was not reliable to you?

                    Either the KH-22 a) was aimed at the shopping mall, or b) it is very inaccurate, or c) both.

                    Which one is it?

                    "Ukraine used to operate Kh-22, then probably sold them."

                    No. Trying to muddy the waters some more?

                    That KH-22 Wikipedia page contains a link to a Russian aviation industry website article dated 2006 where the disposal of all Ukrainian KH-22 missiles and the Tupolev bomber fleet is detailed. The only launch platforms for this missile are select Tupolev bombers which only Russia uses.

                    I'm sure you can read that website more easily than the Finnish press websites I asked earlier.

                    "Curious why you think a missile designed to hit a carrier or other large warship is 'highly inaccurate' though. It uses INS, just like a Tomahawk, and we've fired plenty of those around the world."

                    Let me satisfy your curiosity then. I'm afraid you already revealed your lack of knowledge on this field when comparing Tomahawks and KH-22's. They have the same usual missile shape, I grant you.

                    KH-22 only has an inertial guidance system, and a radar homing system for the last moments. The inertial guidance is prone to drift. Drift happens in all missiles and aircraft, not just Russian ones.

                    The sea is usually quite level and a big lump of metal in the middle of it is for that radar homing part. Doesn't matter if the drift was say, 50m - 100m, by then the radar homing takes over and corrects the misguidance.

                    Obviously this doesn't work in an urban area. Separating a shopping mall from a railways for a 60-year old radar technology is impossible. Probably impossible for even latest radar tech.

                    Tomahawks have INS, but they also have military grade GPS, and they are also loaded with terrain maps as well for more accurate hits. KH-22 in its 60-year history has not received guidance upgrades. They were already mothballed in early 2000's but reinstated for the Ukraine war.

                    "The West only uses 'precision' weapons, Russia uses 'indiscriminate' weapons."

                    Russia has more precise missiles for land operations than these KH-22's which are more effective for ships as I just explained to you in detail.

                    I don't have any rational reasons for Russias ongoing usage of them.

                    Maybe all newer missiles exist only on paper but the funds ended up on someones superyacht or dacha.

                    Or perhaps there's just a surplus of 10k missiles with no navy to shoot them at, so why not use them even if the chance for collateral damage is big.

                    "But you're also making the mistake of assuming the mall was the target. Not the large factory or anything in the rail yards behind it. Which is actually where the missile struck."

                    There were two missiles. Not one. The other hit the shopping center, verified by multiple people already. The aftermath pictures of the shopping center are there for all to see.

                    "Or why, if there were 1,000 people in the mall and there was a direct hit by a 1,000kg warhead, there were so few casualties."

                    Only in Russia 20 casualties are "so few". Human life was cheap in Soviet Union and that hasn't changed in modern Russia.

                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      Either the KH-22 a) was aimed at the shopping mall, or b) it is very inaccurate, or c) both.

                      Which one is it?

                      Hmm.. what kind of question is that, I wonder? Logic and argumentation must be taught differently in Finnish. But what about-

                      d) The factory was the target, the mall was collateral damage.. Which also includes c) given boring CEP stuff, ie you'd expect a fall pattern to be centred around the intended target, +/- whatever drift you assume.

                      KH-22 only has an inertial guidance system, and a radar homing system for the last moments. The inertial guidance is prone to drift. Drift happens in all missiles and aircraft, not just Russian ones.

                      Yes, and...? Again you're making a few assumptions. Like you know exactly how the guidance system works, and whether or not it's received any updates since. Wiki may have a clue for you-

                      Thirty-two Kh-22 missiles will be modernized to the Kh-32 level in 2018–2020.[10]

                      Maybe Russia only has 30 Kh-32's left now.. But wait, there's more..

                      Obviously this doesn't work in an urban area. Separating a shopping mall from a railways for a 60-year old radar technology is impossible. Probably impossible for even latest radar tech.

                      Sure it does. A land target like a building can be simpler given they're not prone to moving. As for the impossible, well, you may want to take a look at something like Brimstone. A much smaller missile, which manages to fit a millimeter wave radar seeker into a much smaller package than a Kh-22 or 23. So not only possible, but in service, and have been for years. Can't remember which missile it was, but one used to have a problem telling the difference between a telegraph pole and a tank, especially with shadows around. That was fixed probably 30yrs ago.

                      Tomahawks have INS, but they also have military grade GPS, and they are also loaded with terrain maps as well for more accurate hits.

                      Ah, "Military Grade". Makes your missiles 97% more accurate, and your mustache longer. So how would your missile compare it's position to a terrain map? Could cruise missiles.. I dunno.. use radar? As for GPS, one feature of this conflict has been widespread GPS jamming and spoofing.

                      Again that raises interesting questions for the future of warcrimes. If you spoof an incoming missile, and it lands on a civilian structure, who is responsible? A similar issue to the challenge with theatre missile defences. Sure, you may shoot down an incoming missile, but the debris is still going to land somewhere along it's flight path. Israel has been facing this challenge since it put it's Iron Dome into service.

                      Maybe all newer missiles exist only on paper but the funds ended up on someones superyacht or dacha.

                      Don't forget 10% for the big guy..

                      There were two missiles. Not one. The other hit the shopping center, verified by multiple people already. The aftermath pictures of the shopping center are there for all to see.

                      Not sure what you're trying to say here. Sure, there were 2 missiles. So are you saying both were aimed at the mall, and one missed? Or both were aimed at the factory, and the mall was collateral damage?

                      But again that's one of those interesting little details. The missiles hit quite far apart, it being a large factory complex that had previously been used to repair AFV/IFVs. The location had convenient road & rail access, so it's potentially a useful staging point for materiel heading towards the front(s). Ukraine obviously denies this because putting military stuff in proximity to civilians obviously puts those civilians at risk, ie war crime territory.

                      But you mention pictures. Do you have a preferred image that shows exactly where the 1,000kg warhead detonated? I've seen pictures showing a typical, flimsily constructed retail unit with fire damage. And also shelves of booze in an offlicence that are unbroken.

                      Only in Russia 20 casualties are "so few". Human life was cheap in Soviet Union and that hasn't changed in modern Russia.

                      Did you know trolls can't understand context? So the official line is the mall was 'packed' with around 1,000 people shopping. A 1,000kg warhead strikes the mall, detonates, only kills 20 shoppers, and leaves a lot of glass bottles undamaged.

                      (this is even more curious considering a Kh-22 is big, heavy, fast moving and so adds a chunk of kinetic energy to it's effects. Which in this case appear to have been stopped by the mall's roof, hence the lack of crater..)

              2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                You are deliberately drawing a false equivalence between specifically targetting civilians (such as aiming lots of artillery at targets where civilians are sheltering, or firing *targeted* cruise missiles at shopping centres) with civilian casualties which are a side-effect of defending yourself against a foreign aggressor fighting on your country's sovereign soil.

                Claiming that the Ukrainian government is deliberately targetting civilians, as Russia is doing, requires evidence. There is copious and clear evidence that this is what Russian forces are doing, along with systematic torture, rape and murder. It probably doesn't need saying that all of the above are considered war crimes.

                For reference, "evidence" here means undisputable independent and multiple sources, not doctored youtube videos taken from computer games and posted by the Russian state.

                tl;dr; - Russian troll factory is obvious troll factory.

              3. Esme

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                No, you halfwit, he's saying that the Ukrainian military hasn't DELIBERATEY targeted civilians. But the Russian military is deliberately targeting civilians as a matter of policy. Is that clear enough for you?!

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  And you have produced not a shred of evidence.

                  The Ukraine army are using civilian structures in violation of international law.

                  There is plenty of imagery doing the rounds, including the interview on French tv, with the Ukraine Army jumping out of a civilian ambulance.

                  The Ukraine is targetting civilians, using the donated western kit to attack defenseless people, and are getting slapped when ever they engage the Allied forces.

                  This conflict will end only one way with Kiev accepting LPR/DPR and Crimea independence.

            2. KittenHuffer Silver badge
              Trollface

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Please stop feeding the Trolls ..... it just makes them bigger!

              1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                But trolls are so tasty. For those interested in things more closely approximating truth than the garbage the MSM hands out, have a read of this-

                https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/3/e/522616.pdf

                1. TimMaher Silver badge
                  Trollface

                  Re: trolls are so tasty.

                  So are jellied eels... oops, sorry.

                2. Peter2 Silver badge

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  But trolls are so tasty. For those interested in things more closely approximating truth than the garbage the MSM hands out, have a read of this-

                  Ok, I read it just out of curiosity.

                  The second mission has concluded that international human rights law (IHRL) has been extensively violated in the conflict in Ukraine. Some of the most serious violations include targeted killing of civilians, including journalists, human rights defenders, or local mayors; unlawful detentions, abductions and enforced disappearances of such persons; large-scale deportations of Ukrainian civilians to Russia; various forms of mistreatment, including torture,inflicted on detained civilians and prisoners of war; the failure to respect fair trial guarantees; and the imposition of the death penalty. Most, albeit not all, violations have been committed in the territories under the effective control of the Russian Federation, including the territories of the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics, and are largely attributable to the Russian Federation

                  My emphasis. Your own link just cluster bombed, if not nuked your argument.

                  And go on, just point out that ill trained Ukrainian conscripts who counter attack and take back their town and find huge numbers of dead bodies of their friends and families lying rotting in the streets occasionally shoot the people responsible when they capture them.

                  Yes, this is a violation of the laws and customs of warfare, but it's also unsurprising; people can only be pushed so far and if you walk back through your own town with your neighbours, friends and family lying dead in the streets because Russians are more concerned with looting, murdering and genocide than gathering their victims for burial then even an saint is going to consider offing the people responsible instead of sending them to a POW camp where they might end up back in Russia alive as part of a prisoner exchange.

                  While I suppose it shouldn't happen, It wouldn't happen at all if the Russians weren't being genocidal maniacs in the first place.

                  I would suggest with the greatest of respect that you have your moral compass serviced; it's defective.

                  1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    The trolls seldom expect you to follow the links they post, or actually read them.

                    The Reg herself used to have a journo who was pretty badly responsible for this sort of thing, posting anti-AGW type articles with links or references to peer-reviewed research that showed the opposite of what he was positing. You know the sort of thing: the whole, "the arctic is actually getting colder" type of article which cherry-picks data for the one tiny part of the polar region that got slightly colder during the polar winter, whilst the rest of the region is melting more extensively every year.

                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      ... type of article which cherry-picks data for the one tiny part of the polar region that got slightly colder during the polar winter, whilst the rest of the region is melting more extensively every year.

                      That's normal for climate 'science'. Do you know..

                      a) the area of the Arctic?

                      b) the number of surface stations producing reliable temperature data for that area?

                      c) what 'kridging' means?

                      1. jake Silver badge

                        Re: Gosh, really ?

                        "what 'kridging' means?"

                        I seriously doubt that you do ... First of all, it's "Kriging", with a capitol K and no d. Secondly, it's pronounced with a hard G, which (given the d) you obviously didn't know.

                        As with the rest of this conversation, you're clearly in over your head ... which is the job of the bait, not the trolling party.

                        Don't be bait. It just makes you look like a buffoon.

                        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                          Re: Gosh, really ?

                          As with the rest of this conversation, you're clearly in over your head ... which is the job of the bait, not the trolling party.

                          The bait is self-selecting. But thankyou for pointing out the typo. I won't call you a grammar n.. well, you get the drift. I am apparently a denier. Can't think who dreamed up that slur to replace 'sceptic'.

                          But you also didn't answer the question, or explain how the process takes incredibly sparse data and extrapolates it into something that's fundamentally false. Here's an example-

                          https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/maps/

                          Showing those fiery red poles. It also has a note "Note: Gray areas signify missing data." but not much grey because the areas that aren't covered by actual surface stations just use imaginary data..

                    2. Peter2 Silver badge

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      I'm good at skim reading. It didn't take more than the first two pages in this case.

                  2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    Ok, I read it just out of curiosity.

                    A 120 page report in 90 mins or less? Impressive..

                    My emphasis. Your own link just cluster bombed, if not nuked your argument.

                    Nope. I expected it to be full of cherries..

                    Most, albeit not all, violations have been committed in the territories under the effective control of the Russian Federation

                    Well, duh. That's where the fighting is. Mostly. But-

                    As of 22 June 2022, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 10,465 civilian casualties in Ukraine

                    Which is far fewer than say, the 650,000 or so civilians killed during the Iraq war(s). Or the 176,000 or so in Afghanistan. So in comparison, the civilian casualty figures in Ukraine are pretty low. As for the disappeared, that's also not uniquely Russian-

                    According to the Center, a person in Ukraine can be detained for up to 30 days without a court order, and antiterrorism legislation under martial law allows authorities to withhold information about their clients' remand. These people vanish, and there is no access to them for 30 days.

                    So over 1,000 Ukrainians have been 'disappeared' by their own government, who suspect them of being collaborators. And being charged with treason, could be executed.

                    But there's stuff that hopefully everyone can agree on..

                    As the international armed conflict in Ukraine continues, the level of death, destruction, and suffering that continues to be inflicted on civilians is terrible and unacceptable.

                    And it was pretty much entirely avoidable. Or inevitable given Ukraine's plans to recapture it's lost territory prior to Russia's intervention.

                    But any debate has become extremely polarised. Everything is Russia's fault. Including Germany's decision stop NordStream 2. What I kind hope, probably optimistically is that it helps clarify or modify international law wrt armed conflict.. Which has gotten even weirder with our actions and inactions here. We no longer have a 'free press'. We engage in economic warfare with complete disregard for the consequences. The OSCE report (rightly) points out the humanitarian crisis, yet neglects to mention that we've instituted collective punishment against the civilians in both Russia and Ukraine. If sanctions prevent Russia providing humanitarian aid, is that really Russia's fault, or ours?

                    1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                      Thumb Down

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      As of 22 June 2022, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 10,465 civilian casualties in Ukraine

                      "Which is far fewer than say, the 650,000 or so civilians killed during the Iraq war(s). Or the 176,000 or so in Afghanistan."

                      So you're comparing 4 months of Russian assault to the (wrong*) total of a 20-year war in Afghanistan?

                      *That 176,000 in the Wikipedia article about War in Afghanistan is the total loss of life, including forces from all sides. The same source for that 176,000 state that there were about 46000 civilian deaths.

                      Extrapolating this 4 months to 20 years - we're way past those figures and closer to Soviet-Afghan war that lasted 9 years. Soviets lost 14,500 personnel during that war, and they've already (probably) lost as many in the last 5 months.

                      Life in Soviet Union was cheap and this continues into the current Russian era.

                  3. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    Thank you for explaining you neither understand the plain English content of that link, nor what a war crime is.

                    Let me help you, people got stabbed in London Under the effective control of London Mayor Kahn.

                    Doesn't mean the brother is rolling round the streets with a blade.

                    The fascist regime in Kiev trying to "exterminate the 1.5 million useless people in LPR/DPR" is utterly reprehensible and should not be supported in anyway shape or form.

                    1. Casca

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      Wow, you really are a russian "useful idiot".

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              He's made the logical point that your tissue of lies and innuendo don't stack up to logic.

              Both sides LPR/DPR and Kiev are engaged in an artillery battle, many innocent people have died, leading enough of the Kiev regimes armed forces to defect to LPR/DPR in disgust and bringing their kit with them.

              You need to do a bit better here, your slip is hanging.

              1. Casca

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                Any proof of this?

                1. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  https://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/ukrainian-security-service-prosecutes-ex-servicemen-for-defecting-to-dpr-lpr-362352.html

                2. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  Couldn't find it originally, but here for posterity.

                  https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/terrorism-security/2014/0416/Ukrainian-military-defections-boost-pro-Russia-militia-as-unrest-spreads

                3. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  From the Aussie media https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/04/ukraines-offensive-falters-as-elite-units-defect-to-pro-russia-side

                4. GNU SedGawk

                  Re: Nutjob Ukrainians attacking a Nuclear plant

                  https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2022/aug/14/ukraine-target-russian-forces-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-zelenskiy-video?

            4. sabroni Silver badge
              Thumb Up

              Re: Now go away.

              Gavin, that you?

              Great to see some top level British Diplomacy!!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          Stepan Bandera -

          Azov

          Adair

          C14

          The country is stuffed full of batshit crazy Ukrainian Fascist Nationalists, many of which have Racist and deeply troubling views.

          There is big statue of Nazi Collaborator Bandera, and many of the Senior Political figures in the Kiev Regime have taken photos and posted them on their social media.

          This person killed tens of thousands of Jews and Poles, and is idolised by the Kiev regime and the fascist militias. Kiev is a failed state, and having the history of losing 27 Million people to Stop Hitlerite fascism, the Russians are not letting Banderite Fascism get that far.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            For Stepan Bandera, Ukraine has an overwhelming negative view of him. Only about 15% of the country has any sort of positive view.

            Quote: "and having the history of losing 27 Million people to Stop Hitlerite fascism, the Russians..."

            That 27 million was NOT just Russian losses, that number also included Ukrainian, Polish and others. Yes Russian losses were the majority in that figure, at almost 14 million, but almost 7 million out of that 27, was Ukrainian losses.

            As far as many Ukrainians are concerned, this invasion is basically a repeat of WW2, with a neighbouring expansionist Fascist state, ruled by a dictator, and doing some Empire building, has decided to invade a sovereign state, without any valid justification, under a false-flag operation.

            So it's the Ukrainians who are fighting the Fascist, not the Russians.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              For Stepan Bandera, Ukraine has an overwhelming negative view of him. Only about 15% of the country has any sort of positive view. Only 15% of the country has a positive view of the Nazi linked murderer of Jews and Poles, well that's okay then /s

              Quote: "and having the history of losing 27 Million people to Stop Hitlerite fascism, the Russians..."

              That 27 million was NOT just Russian losses, that number also included Ukrainian, Polish and others. Yes Russian losses were the majority in that figure, at almost 14 million, but almost 7 million out of that 27, was Ukrainian losses. These would be drawn from the east of the country, the people who now formed the LPR/DPR/Crimea regions, I.e. not the Kiev Baderites.

              As far as many Ukrainians are concerned, would that be the 15% who have positive view of the Nazi collaborator

              this invasion is basically a repeat of WW2, With the Russians fighting off the Nazis basically single handed, while the yanks fund the Nazis - I can see the parallel now you come to mention it.

              with a neighbouring expansionist Fascist state, ruled by a dictator, Russia is not a fascist state, nor given the sheer size is it remotely credible to call it expansionist, finally Putin was elected on a higher share of the votes than Johnson, and Biden, and Zelensky for that matter. So lets call that all out as some weak BS.

              and doing some Empire building [snip] back to Peter the Great again are we - what else in in the ladybird book of russian history for 77 Brigade?

              invade a sovereign state, without any valid justification, under a false-flag operation. total rubbish,

              UN Charter Article 51 allows for mutual self defense, which is handly since Kiev has been attacking LPR/DPR for eight years.

              So it's the Ukrainians (in LPR/DPR) who are fighting the Fascist (Regime in Kiev), not the Russians (Who are helping the LPR / DPR fight Fascism) Fixed it for you

      5. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        A Australian Citizen was to be murdered in London, and is now to be supplied to the same people who intended to murder him.

        You misspelt "ruthless egotist and publisher of state secrets who jumped bail when wanted for questioning on a rape case, hid out in a foreign embassy for a number of years and is now being extradited to a country with an extradition treaty because he broke their laws."

        Fixed that for you.

        Oh, and the person in question is not a journalist, he is, if anything, a publisher. For contrast, see proper investigative journalism like that done by Bellingcat.

        If you live in Russia, why are you supposed to be okay with a bunch of nutters massacring people on your border?

        You could always overthrow Putin and his generals then, and then that might stop.

        Obvious Russian troll is obvious...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          The attempt to use Russian as a racist insult really shows how effectively you've been propagandized.

          The claim was accurate, and evidenced, but thanks for the bluster it was entertaining.

          He "reported" war crimes by the US, He's a Journalist according to UK Courts[1] but you don't seem to be very interested in the deaths of innocent brown children shot from the sky by a invading war criminal. How very far away from your racist insults that world view must be.

          I recommend you lookup the Monroe Doctrine, and the Cuban missile crisis, and explain why 300 Million people living in Russia have to care about the desires of the US empire to impose misery on the rest of the planet to enrich an increasingly elderly, small pool of people.

          "You could always overthrow Putin and his generals then, and then that might stop."

          How would changing a government inside one country affect the events in a second country bordering you? Is logic tought to your sort, or do you just throw out racist remarks and hand waving douchbaggery until the interlocutor cba to parse your bilge?

          [1] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/14/wikileaks-recognised-as-a-media-organisation-by-uk-tribunal

          1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            I'm not using "Russian" as a "racist insult". Apart from the fact that Russians aren't a race (ethnically, they are largely descended from Nordic peoples), so the correct term there would be xenophobic, my gripe is not with the fact that those in the troll farms are Russians, but that they are operated by the Russian state. I'm sure the difference between the Russian state and the Russian people is as large as the gap between the government and the people in most countries, and equating the two is a category error.

            What I am saying, in a completely non-racist way, is that you are an agent of the Russian state posting agitprop. Now fuck off.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Racism is about ingroup and outgroups, you suggesting Russians are the outgroup which is the racism to which I refer, but please wibble some more about "Russians are not a race, so collectively ascribing negative traits to them is fine"

              Your posts contain little of value, so feel free to pass mine by, in your foaming support of Banderite fascism being imposed by the Americans on the people of Ukraine, to serve an interest other than that of the People of Ukraine.

              I'm not surprised you are angered and driven to insult at being unable to refute the simple cold facts, The Russians are on the right side of this, and we thanks to our craven government are allied with reprehensible scum.

              Please continue suggesting I must be an agent of the Russian Federation, or in some other way unable to read, as you take the word of noted apartheid supporter and genocidal racist Biden and Honest Boris "call me Sasha" Johnson.

              BTW do you have an explanation for all the Nazi imagery on display in Ukraine, or are we still at "Russian Man Bad".

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              ...my gripe is not with the fact that those in the troll farms are Russians, but that they are operated by the Russian state.

              Wherever did you get that idea? Was it during the Trump v Clinton election and subsequently, where Trump was a Russian Puppet? Of course there's precious little evidence that this was true, and several prosecutions suggesting the DNC made it all up.

              But it seems to have worked. Russians are everywhere, and the single reason why the world (well, our bit of it) is suffering an energy and inflation crisis. Here's why-

              https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62230201

              European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said a Europe-wide cut-off was now a "likely scenario".

              "Russia is blackmailing us. Russia is using energy as a weapon," she said. "Therefore, in any event, whether it's a partial, major cut-off of Russian gas or a total cut-off of Russian gas, Europe needs to be ready."

              Uhuh. And Germany deciding not to permit Nord Stream 2 was not weaponising energy. Neither was seizing Gazprom operations in Europe. Neither were sanctions against Russia's financial sector so customers couldn't buy Russian gas, or service and maintain infrastructure Europe had become dependent on, thanks to it's disastrous energy policy.

              Of course this provided a boost to US gas exports, and gave it something to do with it's new & lightly used LNG terminals. This was especially good because Russia had also used it's corrupt influence to persuade Joe Biden to block the Keystone XL pipeline. And it's been extremely good for US gas exporters because they can sell their compressed product for highly inflated prices.

              Not so good for European or US consumers, facing massive increases to their energy bills, thanks to our leaders utter stupidity. Ironically, it's also been good for Russia, who's oil & gas revenues have increased.

              But obviously this means I'm a 'Russian Troll', rather than an individual who has his own opinions rather than simply swallowing the propaganda of others. Or it could be the sanctions have prevented payment hitting my account.

          2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            <i.How would changing a government inside one country affect the events in a second country bordering you? Is logic tought to your sort, or do you just throw out racist remarks and hand waving douchbaggery until the interlocutor cba to parse your bilge?</i>

            In response to that particular load of old tripe, I think the irony went over your head somewhat, so I'll spell it out. The murder, torture, rape, and assorted war crimes going on in Ukraine are a direct result of the illegal military operations being undertaken by the Russian state. Extrajudicial killings et al in the Eastern parts of Ukraine prior to this illegal; invasion were almost certainly undertaken by Russian agents provocateurs in Ukrainian clothing. The Russian state has been caught out repeatedly doing this sort of thing, like when they shot down flight MH370 and tried to pin it on Ukraine, but unfortunately for them, there was a trail of CCTV from multiple and independent sources, that showed the missile launcher that did it originated from Russia and was filmed driving around in Eastern Ukraine for several days before committing that particular war crime. Once again, Bellingcat had a very good exposé of this. No surprise, then, that Putin really hates journalist and likes to have them murdered.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Irony is that like Iron?

              It was the Russians in East Ukraine, not the Ukrainians - yeah right.

              The presence of Nazis murdering their fellow citizens has been cited multiple times, you've offered nothing to rebut it, so lets accept that.

              You are clearly fine with it as "Russian Man Bad" - the "Russians dress as Ukrainians" have interviews explaining them with the sodding BBC.

              Start Here facinating background, and a nice Right sector flag on display https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25323964

              Then a bit more https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25826238

              Here's BBC Newsnight on patrol with them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ

              They interview a fascist leader who is later presented with the "Hero of Ukraine" award by Zelensky.

              Are the BBC in on it?

              Are the entire world who have a functional memory that extends prior to yesterday, in on this?

              Have the BBC been hacked by "DA EVIL RuSKI"

      6. Roger Kynaston Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        echo "I must not tell lies" | sed -e 's/not//'

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          echo "I Must learn shell".

      7. TheMeerkat Bronze badge

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        See Gawk, you are repeating disgusting Russian propaganda lies.

        You should be ashamed of yourself.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gosh, really ?

          What lies, every claim, I made was evidenced.

          Ukraine has a nazi problem - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUKKBN1GV2TY

          Kiev / LPR/DPR has been going for eight years . https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

          We shouldn't be arming them https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine/0000017f-e080-d7b2-a77f-e3870e1c0000

          Want to tell me so far what I've got wrong?

          1. Peter2 Silver badge

            Re: Gosh, really ?

            Ok.

            Your first link says that Ukraine has a Nazi problem and is going for political power. A year after that, have another link; "The Far Right Just Got Humiliated in Ukraine’s Election" The extreme right is no more a problem in Ukraine than in Germany. The bigger problem is actually the far left, who decided that Putin was a man of his word and they could close down every energy source but buying gas from Mr Putin.

            "We shouldn't be arming them" is what Russia wants; because at the moment their army, airforce and navy have been losing all of their equipment and men to a country that most people couldn't have found on a map six months ago, which unlike Russia does not have a huge stockpile of weapons and ammunition.

            The only Russian hope of victory is that the west forces Ukraine into signing a peace deal favourable to Russia for ongoing cheap gas which Germany in particular would like to do because if this drags on their economy will be crippled.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gosh, really ?

              Ukraine Has a Nazi Problem, doesn't mean all Ukrainian people support the Nazis.

              Roughly speaking what has happened in Ukraine in English terms is as follows.

              The EDL/BNP football skinheads were allowed to become the private army of whichever person fancied paying them, the US then backed a winner in the 2014 Coup allowing control of the Energy resources of Ukraine which prior to that point, was a mostly democratic if rather poorly governed country with a decent mix of languages from the former USSR.

              This has to be understood as a coup, not a popular expression of Ukrainian people. The US backs a couple of these militia (Right Sector and Asov) which are so-called "volunteers", and they get defused through the state assuming control of the Army, It doesn't matter if you subscribe to the order or not, if your CiC is telling you do X, and you don't do X, you will likely be shot. Forget about your movies, they will shoot you, and unless you know better, you believe your chain of command is correct, and you comply.

              The attacks on Russian Language and Culture increase, essentially turning one section of Ukraine in the East (LPR/DPR/Crimea) into a persecuted minority when previously, they were Ukrainians who happened to be Russian speakers, but would identify as Ukrainian.

              This bloodshed doesn't make the population of Ukraine at large in favour of Nazis, but it's simply an orthogonal point that the population at large has no great love of Fascism.

              Anyway this goes on until around 2019 - by now the nazis are well defused into the army, and trained onto Nato kit, even going on Nato deployments, including the Nazi lot - who are around 50-100K people - which in a country of Millions is not much, but it's about where those people are placed and what influence they have.

              So LPR/DPR is holding their own because of desertion from West Ukraine, to LPR/DPR and bringing their kit with them but the death toll is horrific and civilians are getting the worst of it since it's become an artillery battle.

              So Enter CokeHead Prez elected on the idea that he will end all this, again Nazis in Ukraine, nothing to do with every or even most Ukrainians.

              Cokehead Prez goes to talk to these Nazi groups and is told that attempts to enforce Minsk / talk to Russia will lead to a violent and painful death.

              He's now trapped, the people running the show are Nazis, not the average Ukrainian who is a victim of this Proxy war the US has instigated.

              The US has taken underlying issue in Ukraine, and is simply impervious to the harm caused to the people who have no part in any of this.

              The attacks on the Roma. and the pograms, carried out by these people are a minority of Ukrainian people, but that minority is the police force, and the army.

              That's a problem, at this point Kiev is a failed state, and not a single word of that has any chance of gaining popular support from the people of Ukraine, hence the imposition of it by bomb, bullet and herding people into buildings to be burnt alive.

              https://twitter.com/Syricide/status/1517234024758009856

              Coke Head Prez is both a hostage and the most abject traitor to his people it is possible to imagine.

              His open calls for the Genocide of the Palestinian people are enough to condemn him, but as CiC to throw life after life away in service of such monsters is treason.

              https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/

              1. Peter2 Silver badge

                Re: Gosh, really ?

                Roughly speaking what has happened in Ukraine in English terms is as follows.

                Russia invaded in 2014, and created large numbers of people who hate them. Those people fought them, and the Russians started losing to them.

                Russia then declared anybody fighting them to be Nazi's and invaded to "Denazify" Ukraine, which in plain English means "kill everybody who doesn't love Russia", which by now is what, 96% of the population, hence why they have no problems with indiscriminately shelling Ukrainian cities, demonstrating a novel approach to winning hearts and minds.

                Mintpress is a Russian funded disinformation website designed to peddle conspiracy theories and any information from it needs to be taken with several shiploads of salt.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Gosh, really ?

                  Citation needed since you fact free bilge got dismantled, you want to start sealioning,

                  The Nazis there are there according to the world, even according to us, they are there.

                  You seem fine with "Nazi running the Army", guess what Russia is not. Frankly if the majority of Brits knew the truth about this, we'd be outraged and demanding we disengage from this disgusting affair.

                  1. Peter2 Silver badge

                    Re: Gosh, really ?

                    Well, since [citation needed] is a Wikipedia thing, let's see what they have to say about your favourite site.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News

                    Described as a conspiratorial website,[10][11] MintPress News publishes disinformation and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, according to researchers at Rutgers University and others.[12][13] MintPress News was a major media domain that spread disinformation about the White Helmets, a Syrian volunteer organization.[14]

                    The site has been accused of regularly publishing pro-Russian propaganda.[13] A report from New Knowledge includes MintPress News as part of the "Russian web of disinformation,"[15][16] and the site has published fake authors attributed to the GRU, the Russian military intelligence agency.[17]

                    The source of MintPress News's funding remains unknown.[7]

                    I'd have thought that at some point you'd stop digging.

                    If it publishes Russian propaganda almost exclusively from Russian government sources then going by Occums Razor; what is the most likely funding source?

                    By the by, British troops aren't engaged in Ukraine. Only Ukrainian and Russian troops. I do like how desperate Russians are to stop us supplying equipment to Ukraine though; given how for years the Pro Russian lot have been claiming their Wunderwaffe are so superior to anything we have deployed then fighting Russians with our overly expensive stuff that doesn't work properly would be a death sentence for our troops. I take the utter desperation about "PLEASE, PLEASE STOP SENDING UKRAINE WEAPONS" means that they are working rather better than you lot are comfortable with.

                    We will of course stop supplying the Ukraine; probably the day when Russian troops get out of Ukraine. And yeah, that deflection about all Ukrainians being Nazi's is well below pitiful. Only one side is shooting unarmed people on sight in the streets, and it sure ain't the Ukrainians.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Gosh, really ?

                      So The BBC news night special with the patrol with the Nazis in Ukraine, that was made up was it.

                      You are unable to point to a single thing wrong with the Article that mintpress published so you are spewing lies and disinformation. Accusing anyone who doesn't parrot your rubbish of being paid by the Russians and or being anti Jewish.

                      Which in the specific case of Mintpress is laughable considering they sure employ a lot of Jewish writers for a bunch of Jew haters, I suspect your slur relates to them not being apologists for Apartheid.

                      The Nazis in Ukraine have been there for a long time, and you can spew hatred at me all you like, I don't respect you, or your opinion so your lack of respect means nothing to me.

                      LPR and DPR are different countries to Russia, say it slowly perhaps it will sink it, and the lies of the US empire simple are not credible, to site Belligcat which is funded by the information warfare component of the British Army as "Investigitve Journalists" is beyond laughable.

                      In short, you are either a donkey, or beyond reason by virtue of your unthinking hatred for all your are commanded to dispise.

                      The DPR/LPR/RF allied forces are throwing 55,000 shells a day, to Ukraines 5,000 shell. The only thing delaying the inevitable surrender is doing is causing more innocent men under arms of Ukraine to die.

                      But you feel like a big man, safe here, cheering on the Ukrainians to be slaughter in an unwinnable fight to impose Banderite fascism on Ukraine, and serve the interests of the people who are now doing very well with massive arms contracts just after the last cash cow in Afghanistan stopped giving milk.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Gosh, really ?

                        You do understand that being far-right nationalist and being a Nazis are not the same thing?

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Gosh, really ?

                          Yes, Hitlerite Fascism can be distinguished from Ukrainian Fascist Nationalism(UFN), and the specific strand represented by the cult of Stepan Bandera. The state naming Stepan Bandera Avenue for him, and the symbolism of the memorial to the Jews murdered by Banderite thugs being at the end of Bandera avenue is breathtaking.

                          In Lviv last year, hundreds of men marched wearing the SS uniforms of Ukrainian collaborators in a city-approved event. At least three Ukrainian municipalities in recent years have unveiled statues for Bandera’s deputy, Yaroslav Stetsko, who during the Holocaust openly called for “the extermination of the Jews.”

                          https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/two-streets-in-kiev-will-no-longer-be-named-after-nazi-collaborators/

                          The modern incarnations of UFN in Azov and Right Sector, is not greatly different in contempt for human life.

                          It's academically interesting why exactly the different groups of armed men want to herd people into a building so they can burn to death, so long as it not you being forced into the buildings.

                          UFN plus Hitlerite iconography such as is found on Azov/Right Sector/C14/Adair/Tornado and all the other degenerate filth are "Nazi".

                          1. Casca

                            Re: Gosh, really ?

                            Interesting that you are allowed to spew your russian propaganda shit here without problem.

      8. druck Silver badge

        Re: Gosh, really ?

        It looks like VoiceOfTruth has created another account to collect all the downvotes.

    2. nematoad Silver badge

      Re: Gosh, really ?

      "Russia would have to develop its own domestic technology and tech firms as the country would not be reversing course on progress."

      For a given value of "progress" of course.

      This is straight out of the North Korean play-book and look how well North Korea are doing.

    3. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: Gosh, really ?

      Maybe if you stopped murdering journalists who are just doing their job and face reality, things might start going for the better ?

      No, no, no, that would never do. You see, journalists have this annoying tendency to point out, in minute detail, that the Emperor has no clothes. And well, we can't have that, now can we?

      Ewww!, now that's an image I can't un-see...

  4. Neil Barnes Silver badge

    Presumably

    If google pays the fine, they'd be in breach of the current embargoes?

  5. Cederic Silver badge

    unusual for Google

    Normally Google roll over and comply with unreasonable authoritarian governments - e.g. removing mentions of Tiananmen Square from Chinese search results, or suppressing videos highlighting Hunter Biden's laptop.

    Nice to see them refusing to give in for once, although perhaps this merely reflects their continued support for US Government policy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: unusual for Google

      Normally they would, but Russia has already seized the bank accounts of google.ru and forced them into bankruptcy. There's no-one left on staff to perform bespoke censorship on behalf of the Russian government. This looks more like an ironic consequence than a genuine pushback against authoritarianism.

    2. Steve Button Silver badge

      Re: unusual for Google

      "Nice to see them refusing to give in for once"

      This is all about money. They give in to China authoritarian censorship because it's a massive market for them, and they don't want to miss out. Whereas Russia, while also doing "bad things" is a pretty tiny market in comparison. The double standards are pretty shameful.

      1. Dinanziame Silver badge
        Big Brother

        Re: unusual for Google

        They give in to China authoritarian censorship because it's a massive market for them

        In case you didn't know: Google doesn't in fact censor in China, and this is why it is not available in China. Same with YouTube.

        1. Steve Button Silver badge

          Re: unusual for Google

          I didn't know that.

          I had heard differently, but that was years ago, so could well be wrong. Thanks for the correction.

  6. andy 103
    FAIL

    The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

    If you replace the word promoted with showed it's probably not far off.

    In which case Russia should be suing themselves for their own deplorable acts against totally innocent people.

    1. LDS Silver badge

      Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

      It's an old Russian propaganda tactic to accuse others to do what they actually are doing. After all, you see it very well shown in "1984" - Orwell did know them well.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

        It's an old Russian propaganda tactic to accuse others to do what they actually are doing.

        Pretty much every government does this. The West, NATO and it's allies have never bombed civilians. Russia does because Putin bad!

        Then there's media censorship, which is of course 'fake news'. No democratic Western government would manipulate the 'free press'. Read all about that in RT, or Sputnik. Oh, wait.. they're blocked to those without a VPN.

        But such is politics. I expect to collect more thumbs down from people who lack any kind of critical thinking ability. But we don't really teach that, and our media certainly doesn't encourage it. So carry on living in a state of fear. Do not even think of flying off on a summer holiday to enjoy Thermageddon on a foreign beach, you can experience that right here, right now!

        The UK's just experienced it's hottest day since the last Ice Age! The hottest day of the year has occurred during summer! This is unprecedented! Panic now!

        (or just enjoy the nice weather, for it is weather, not climate..)

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

          We don't do it deliberately, and if people are found to have murdered unarmed civilians then it's investigated and the people responsible end up in court charged with murder.

          The Russians deliberately commit genocide and the units responsible are awarded high Russian commendations (eg Guards status) for executing both their orders and unarmed civilians.

          If you can't see the difference then I would suggest that your moral compass is defective.

          1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            I would suggest that your moral compass is defective

            I'd go for 'absent'.

          2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            If you can't see the difference then I would suggest that your moral compass is defective.

            Consider this, from the OSCE report-

            For instance, during the evacuation from the town of Irpin on 6 March 2022, 8 civilians, including 2 children, were killed by Russian mortar units shelling the route. There are reports that Ukrainian artillery position was located nearby. If these reports are correct, the deaths could in fact pass for incidental losses stemming from military operations and, as such, would not necessarily constitute a violation of the right to life, on the condition the Russian Federation took all precautionary measures to minimize these losses and the losses were not clearly disproportionate to the expected military gain.

            So simple question. War crime, yes or no? Many have already decided their answer, even though they lack evidence. And then consider-

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike

            On 3 October 2015, a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF, or Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. 42 people were killed and over 30 were injured.

            War crime, yes or no?

            If you actually bothered to read many of my posts on this subject, they're pretty much all pointing out Western hypocrisy. If we bomb schools and hospitals, why shouldn't Russia? If we explain them away as 'accidents', why shouldn't Russia? If we can invade Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc etc, why can't Russia exercise some kinetic diplomacy as well?

            If we're supposed to be the beacon of light amongst the despots, shouldn't we be holding ourselves (and our allies) to the standards we seem to want to hold Russia, but don't follow ourselves.

            1. Casca

              Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

              Ah yes. You cant see any difference between the two.

              Maybe you should look how many times russia have done this since February and compare it to twenty years in Afghanistan?`

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            The difference is just its the same self serving shite spewed by every crook, it was different when we did it, and we didn't mean to do it..

            It's not different, we simply don't care about human life, and have the disgusting attituded that's because our bombs are more morally righteous.

            Afghanistan is undergoing Famine because US/NATO stole their money, Libya has open slave markets thanks to the Invasion by NATO/US.

            There is no difference, you just don't see the rest of the world as equally human, nor weigh their life as equal to your own.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            This is rubbish.

            I support the forces, if you put me in harms way, I'll do what I have to do get home safe, laws and rules be damn. I'll not condemn anyone for that same mindset, but there is no righteous line to be drawn between us (Brits) and anybody else.

            We are allied with genocidal murdering terrorists who's contempt for human life is legendary, and the disgusting thing about it, is that applies to more than one country, as well you know.

            The only difference between us and them, is you hear about what they do, and they hear about what we do.

            The deaths of the innocent children of Iraq, over a million children murdered from the sky, doesn't count as genocide, the white phosphorous usage that has tripled the cancer rate in the survivors.

            How about the oppressed people of Palestine murdered with US made 2 ton bombs, the defenseless people, lacking anti-aircraft defense, or an army or sympathy, while you have the nerve to complain Russia is fighting literal Nazi, it's offensive.

            Russian man bad.

        2. Sandtitz Silver badge
          Thumb Down

          Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

          "Then there's media censorship, which is of course 'fake news'. No democratic Western government would manipulate the 'free press'. Read all about that in RT, or Sputnik. Oh, wait.. they're blocked to those without a VPN."

          I can read RT.COM just fine without VPN here in Finland. Russia has however denied access to most of our media, and they need VPN to access our online newspapers.

          Please give me examples how the Finnish government has manipulated our press. If you cannot, I'd like to call you a liar from now on.

          "I expect to collect more thumbs down"

          Happy to oblige. See icon.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            Please give me examples how the Finnish government has manipulated our press. If you cannot, I'd like to call you a liar from now on.

            Err.. Ok. Except I'm not Finnish. I'm also guessing you're neither a lawyer, nor a philosopher. Novel line of argumentation though. Can't read Finnish, must be a liar..

            1. Sandtitz Silver badge
              Thumb Down

              Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

              "Err.. Ok. Except I'm not Finnish [...] Can't read Finnish"

              So you're trying to weasel out of this?

              You made the claim "No democratic Western government would manipulate the 'free press'".

              The burden of proof is on you.

              Looking at the Press Freedom Index, it's the 'Western World' that is leading the rest of the pack in press freedom. Things are never 100% perfect anywhere, but your justifying Russian oppression against independent press is plain pitiful.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                So what your saying is the parts of the world that occupied the other parts of the world, are doing better than the places they bombed the shit out of, and occupied for hundreds of years in some cases.

                By the way Finland, still got those fascist "Uber Finns" doing the rounds, nicely tied up laundering IMI arms to put a nice EU friendly face on Apartheid. https://bdsmovement.net/news/despite-opposition-finland-proceeds-israel-arms-deal

                It's not perfect can go shove it. Either you can be locked up like assange is for telling the truth about war crimes , or you can't.

                Guess where his arse is sat now, in Belmarsh.

                1. Sandtitz Silver badge
                  Thumb Down

                  Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                  "So what your saying is the parts of the world that occupied the other parts of the world, are doing better than the places they bombed the shit out of, and occupied for hundreds of years in some cases."

                  Sigh...

                  I was replying to Eel's accusation of the lack of freedom of press in the 'Western World' and showed that it is not a concern here in Finland. Or in the Scandinavia. Or most parts of the West anyway.

                  Your article is just showing that the press can publish all sorts of critical editorials and news here. Thanks for the confirmation!

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                    Finland cardboard baby boxes and all.

                    Tampella / Soltam used to put a European face on manufacture of arms by Zionist State Terrorists, an assisted with exporting those arms around the world, to people who wouldn't by from IMI but would from "Finland".

                    The vaunted freedom to follow the dictats of the US Empire is much overstated.

                    For example the US recently invaded Somalia, The Zionist State Terrorists are bombing the defenceless people of Gaza again. That's not real high on the news...

                2. Esme

                  Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                  And you seriously think we haven't heard about the "Russian World" concept, or abut Russian attempts to Russify the people of every country they have ever invaded?

                  Sure, I know that other countries have done similar things - but that doesn't make it OK for any of them to do so. Also, please note, many of us residents of the UK are properly horrified at what our ancestors did , re The British Empire. - a dark, malodourous part of our history which was shameful, and a root cause of much of the troubles around the world today.

                  However, just because some of my forbears did terrible things amd screwed up the world doesn't make it OK for Putin to do so now. You appear to think that anyone critical of Russia's current actions is blind to the failings of their own nations. This is not so. I'll never forgive Blair for getting the Uk involved in the Middle East due to claimed "weapons of masss destruction" that didn't actually exist. At the time I said that there was no legal basis for us to go to war, and that it was a mistake for us to get into that war (I'm highly critical of anay UK politician that thinks we should automatically back the USA. Absolutely not, IMO!, and yet Blair - who hd legal training did just that and got us involved in an unjust war the arsehole. Take each case on its own merits.). And now - here endeth my engagement with Russian trolldom in this thread.:-)

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                    The attitude is perfectly encapsulated. just because some of my forbears did terrible things The terrible things are happening now, right under your nose, and you don't care - so spare me.

                    Thanks for the racist russian jibe though..

                    The rest of your comment is brilliant, Learn some history - start with this year see if you can find when Britain stopped supporting Apartheid in Palestine, or the Headchoppers in Saudi?

                    The idea that we are the good guys is offensive, our government is not on the side of people in this country, and is not good for people around the world.

                    Buy a book, and read, don't just leave it on the shelf.

                    Maybe find out about the Balfour declaration - Sikes-Picott - The actually history you are defending as being removed and remote and "forebears"..

                    1. Casca

                      Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                      Oh wow. Really brave anon. Cant even do it under your own name.

                      And for the record. You are a piece of shit russian troll that should be shut down. You wont be because this is the west. Not russia that you so admire.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

            RT is Banned in UK, where the post is from.

            Yes we are techies and can trivially have PoP where ever AWS/Azure/GCP A-N-Other does business, but the Government of the UK has banned RT.

            1. Peter2 Silver badge

              Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

              . . .

              Ofcom launched a separate investigation to determine whether ANO TV Novosti is fit and proper to retain its licence to broadcast and took into account several factors including that RT is is funded by the Russian state and new laws in Russia which criminalize any independent journalism that departs from the Russian state’s own news narrative, in particular in relation to the invasion of Ukraine.

              We consider that given these constraints it appears impossible for RT to comply with the due impartiality rules of our Broadcasting Code in the circumstances,” Ofcom stated.

              So broadcasters have requirements; you fail to comply with them and you lose the license.

              I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you might think that your going to a great degree of effort in reading "alternative news" to try and come to truth being supressed in our media by reading the Russian point of view.

              "The Russian strategy, both at home and abroad, is to say there is no such thing as truth," he says.

              "I mean, you know, 'The Americans are bad, we're bad, and everyone's bad, so what's the big deal about us being a bit corrupt? You know our democracy's a sham, their democracy's a sham.'

              "It's a sort of cynicism that actually resonates very powerfully in the West nowadays with this lack of self-confidence after the Iraq War, after the financial crash - and that's what the Russians are hoping for, just to take that cynicism and then use that in a military environment."

              You might find this interesting:-

              https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b050674y

              It might also be worth reviewing the concepts of "the grey fallacy" and "false equivalence".

              Or you might be a Russian troll on the FSB payroll and deliberately wasting my time, but even if so that might get read by somebody who's accidentally being a useful idiot, so it's hardly wasted time. ;)

              1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                Or you might be a Russian troll on the FSB payroll

                There are two very obvious ones here, and judging from the voting pattern, a couple of "silent" accounts used for upvoting.

                Fortunately most readers of a technical site such as this will be bright enough not to fall for their bullshit, but the causal reader might be pulled in.

                It's a testament to how much the Russian state is prepared to spend funding this sort of psy-op that they have enough resources for them to be posting here at all, and not just sticking to the low-hanging fruit on the Daily Heil web site. Or perhaps their trolls are only about as competent as their military, and they think that overwhelming numbers is the secret to success, rather than strategy and intelligence.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                  Sure or that people working in Tech might be prone to actually testing what they are told rather than trusting the glib speaker.

                  This is the US using Ukraine as a battering ram to attack Russia and the US not caring what happens to the people of Ukraine.

                  Same as they used the nutjobs in pakistan to attack the Soviets and begat BinLaden's nutjob outfit.

                  Same as they setup operation Gladio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

                  Same as in Latin America at the "school of the americas"

                  Same as in Africa.

                  Same as in Ukraine.

                  You might be too dense to spot the idea, or maybe you just don't care what happens to these "lesser people"..

                  But the idea that the US is on the right side of history is a joke, the UniPolar world is over, and we now live in A Multipolar reality, regardless of what the elderly racists pulling the strings want.

                  1. Casca

                    Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                    Who attacked who? Clever of the US to make russia attack Ukraine you think?

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

                Look at that you head on BS is dismantled so out come the psyops.

                Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault

                The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin

                By John J. Mearsheimer

                September/October 2014

                https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2014-08-18/why-ukraine-crisis-west-s-fault

                Go read what Professor Of IR has to say on the subject, he's an American with a string of publications to his name.

                The americans told us to stop interfering with information Warfare, so we complied as good poodles.

                BBC was recently found to be biased against the leader of the opposition, going so far as to doctor photos of him.

                But sure RT was blocked because "ofcom"...

        3. Kibble 2
          IT Angle

          Re: Censorship

          Read all about that in RT, or Sputnik. Oh, wait.. they're blocked to those without a VPN.

          Sorry to prove you wrong, but I don't use VPNs often, but do read articles at RT occasionally. Dunno about Sputnik, however: I never tried to access that site.

          Btw, I find the articles at RT are quite slanted and the commenters are nutters. Now get off my lawn!

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Censorship

            Btw, I find the articles at RT are quite slanted and the commenters are nutters. Now get off my lawn!

            Yep, which is both a good and a bad thing. It's the whole 'plurality of news' theory. So I find articles at the Bbc, Grauniad, DM, CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc etc also quite slanted. Or sometimes just woefully inaccurate. Commenters are.. curious, but perhaps provide an insight into the audience. Presumably why the Bbc is very selective about the stories it permits comments on.

            But providing you can detect and understand any potential bias, then you may find yourself getting a more balanced view. Read the story from the left, right and possibly centre and the truth might be in there, somewhere.

            Or in this scenario, just ban any opposing or contradictory news services so you're only exposed to one version of the truth. Why? It should be obvious to just about anyone that RT will have a Russian perspective (or bias), just as the Bbc does. One is the state broadcaster, funded and controlled directly by government and outside the normal press regulatory framework, the other is RT. Ofcom could regulate and restrict RT, it can't the Bbc because the Bbc is 'independent'.

            Then we've allowed a very unhealthy ecosystem to metastasise around primary news sources, ie the MSM. So the 'fact checking' industry, and gatekeepers like Google/YT. Both amplify misinformation. So say the Bbc runs a story about MH-17, and claims it was shot down by a 'Russian' missile. Trivially true, given Russia orignally manufactured the Buk system, but they were also operated by Ukraine from places like here-

            https://www.google.com/maps/place/48%C2%B003'37.0%22N+37%C2%B044'28.0%22E/@48.0603292,37.7396539,376m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x60166d56b913a79f!8m2!3d48.0602778!4d37.7411111?hl=en

            home of the 156th Air Defense Regiment. But then there was a gish-gallop of 'OSI' from the likes of Bellendcat, who became a 'reliable source' per wiki, and pretty much completely ignored the possibility it was a captured Ukrainian Buk. Or any contributory failures by Ukraine, ie not DIP'ng the Buks when the 156th's units were threatened, or closing air space over Ukraine, despite knowing full well there was an active SAM threat over their country.

            But much the same happened over claims of chemical weapons in Syria. Especially a rather bizarre claim that presence of hexamine meant that it must have been Syrian government chemical weapons. Despite several experts pointing out hexamine's a pretty common environmental chemical, and has rarely been used in the synthesis of chemical weapons. It is, however used in the production of RDX and other explosives, as well as fire retardents and fuel tablets. So detecting traces of it on a battlefield should be a suprise to no-one. Bellendcat's 'experts' should have been well aware of this.

            And then there's the world's deadliest nerve agent that proved rather ineffective. Novichok could only have come from Russia, therefore Putin must have ordered it's use in some bungled assassination attempts. But a reference sample was produced and published by Iranian chemists, and it's really not that difficult to make. So there are valid, alternative hypotheses, especially when you consider the targets had done a lot of anti-corruption work, and made many enemies. So assassinate them with a 'uniquely' Russian agent, and blame Putin.

            Or of course there's Covid. Google and other anti-social media companies were quick to dismiss and debunk theories that it was a lab leak. None of their 'fact checkers' could have any clue where it originated, and we still don't know for certain. It also was very swift to dismiss potential treatments as 'horse pills', even though there'd been no serious medical trials to confirm or deny their effectiveness.

            But such is politics. Control the news and you can control the narrative. It's why propaganda and psyops exist. It's also compounded by our polarised political system. If you've spent the last couple of decades being told that Russia is evil, you might start believing it, and not ask why there's a large US airbase inside sovereign Syria.

      2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: The court also claimed some material promoted extremism and/or terrorism

        It's not uniquely Russian, it's typically a right-wing tactic. The Nazis did it very effectively, and our current government in the UK, especially the hard-right factions within, is prone to accusing others of their own failings as a smokescreen.

  7. Phones Sheridan Bronze badge

    "Theoretically, Google can appeal the court's verdict and fine"

    But anyone representing Google in court would find themselves arrested and/or disappeared.

    In Soviet Russia, you do not appeal to the court, the court repeals your life.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If....

    Google is essentially bankrupt in Russia, how can it pay this fine?

    Rhetorical question, I know, but.....

    If things get really bad, Google could turn off Play Store, or, more disruptively, Google Cloud Messaging....

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: If....

      Everyone in Russia, including the politicians, uses Telegram for messaging because, oh the irony, it's been shown to be impossible to block or sanction.

    2. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: If....

      Nah, they could play with the Maps routing algorithm which could easily lead to massive amounts of congestion wherever they choose.

    3. TeeCee Gold badge

      Re: If....

      Easy.

      Change the homepage for their few remaining Russian services to a blank screen displaying the words "Putin is a massive cunt" and then turn off the lights.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: If....

        Sergey might have relatives in Russia. I have no idea if he does, or if he has contact with them. But if he does, that may not be such a good idea. Putin is well known for "retribution".

  9. Zebo-the-Fat

    Really?

    "Google also stands convicted an "indifferent attitude to the life and health of minors"

    Who is bombing residential areas with lots of children in them??

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Really?

      Some people over-relied on the accuracy google maps. and now want a refund.

    2. GNU SedGawk

      "There are one million children living in Gaza, trapped and under fire. "

      "Who is bombing residential areas with lots of children in them??"

      The Israelis regularly bomb Gaza where over 50% of the population is under 18.

      https://www.redpepper.org.uk/gaza-is-a-childrens-prison/

  10. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
    Trollface

    A Russian Google would be easy: it would just be the government's own web site. All the truth you need is there. Anything that is not there is a lie against the good name of Russia and you would be in a gulag if you ever admitted you beleived it.

    1. LDS Silver badge

      Putin just needs to build "an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete, soaring up, terrace after terrace, 300 metres into the air." Where you can read:

      WAR IS PEACE

      FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

      IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

      1. jwatkins

        The last two statements are a requirement for all governments, whatever their official political standing.

      2. the Jim bloke Silver badge

        "WAR SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION IS PEACE

        FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

        IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"

  11. TimMaher Silver badge
    Big Brother

    El Reg

    Is it available in the Soviet Union Russia?

    1. Spanners Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: El Reg

      I have heard it referred to as the New USSR.

  12. HildyJ Silver badge
    Trollface

    Pootin the Great

    It Pootin wants to envision himself as Peter the Great restoring Mother Russia,

    let him do it with Peter the Great's technology.

    1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: Pootin the Great

      The main problem is, that he thinks he is Peter the Great, but has nukes.

      I'd like to think that if he actually tried to use them, rather than just threatening to, the defenestration might come from someone within the Kremlin. They can't ALL be as insane as him.

      1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

        Re: Pootin the Great

        Sadly we learned in 1945 that the great dictator did surround himself with yes men*.. and yes they were all as nuts as he was....

        eg Wilhelm Keitel nicknamed Lakeitel, a play on the word lackey and his name

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Re: Pootin the Great

          There were multiple plots against Hitler, and a few came really close to success. That's why Putin is so paranoid, he knows there are bound to be some patriotic Russians in the Kremlin who would be willing to take him out for the good of mother Russia even at the cost of their own lives, if given a chance.

      2. trindflo Bronze badge
        Holmes

        Re: Pootin the Great

        Nukes need to be maintained. Are you sure he has nukes?

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: Pootin the Great

          Even if only 1% actually "go off", sadly he has more than enough to eradicate all complex life on Earth.

  13. Mad Dave

    "letting the truth about Ukraine be told"

    Yes, because that's what Google is known for, being entirely upfront and honest about everything.

    1. sarusa

      Re: "letting the truth about Ukraine be told"

      Well it's all relative. YouTube is a mix of truth, lies, irrelevant, and crazy because that's when you get when anyone can post things on YouTube. On the other hand, Russian media like RT is nothing but Pravda, near 100% written or dictated by the KGB (now calling itself the FSB) for political or international events. We can see all those insane fantasies from here (RT is allowed out, though real news is not allowed in) - it's like watching the ultimate evolution of Fox News.

      So yes, compared to the Russian government Google has always been upfront and honest, and relatively tolerant of people posting videos showing what's actually going on in Ukraine.

      This is a common troll/five ruble army tactic of arguing that whatever you're doing is okay because everyone else is just as bad - 'We're murdering babies? Well you pick your nose!'. You don't even have to know if it's true, in fact the counter accusation is usually something you're doing as well (go with what you know!). You can see this with Putin's tool, Trump, and the way every accusation is a confession for the US's Republican party.

      1. Mad Dave

        Re: "letting the truth about Ukraine be told"

        >"yes, compared to the Russian government Google has always been upfront and honest"

        I think I'll leave it there, I don't think further debate would prove a fruitful excercise.

        1. sarusa

          Re: "letting the truth about Ukraine be told"

          I just said the smell of piss is *relatively* tolerable compared to the smell of Surströmming. Shouldn't be controversial at all. It would be easier to ask what, if anything, the Russian government has not lied about in the last several years. Though I guess if you're from Corbynville that's all lies by the Jews.

  14. sarusa
    Mushroom

    Indiference to the lives of children

    > Google also stands convicted an "indifferent attitude to the life and health of minors"

    I guess they want Google to be actively targeting and murdering minors instead, like good Russians do when they deliberately shell schools and hospitals and execute captured civilians?

  15. John D'oh!

    Having had a look back through sed gawk's previous posts he's clearly not a Russian troll, and I share his mistrust of the Western media and governments. I just wish he would apply that same scepticism to all sides of the argument.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      spasibo tovarisch

      Thank you for actually looking at the post history, which would tell you my Russian roots extend to being born in North London(grad), and having a Finn for an Ex-wife. All the usual hallmarks of being a water carrier for Putin.

      I fully accept that there is something that I might have wrong, I cite where I've drawn my evidence from.

      I might be well off into the long grass but I genuinely don't think so, I'm happy to be corrected, frankly I want to be wrong because the facts as I see them are monstrous.

      Russia is not a perfect society, I've never been, and I'm not sure I'd like to live there (can't speak the lingo), but neither is here.

      I can't get rid of the queen / royals/ or sack a corrupt MP.

      The same 6 Billionaires decide who is going to be allowed to be Leader of the country.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That's not the impression I got from ploughing through a mind numbing barrage of fuckwittery and badly formatted nonsense code snippets.

    3. Casca

      Not a russian troll? Then at best a useful idiot for russia.

  16. trindflo Bronze badge
    Terminator

    Protection?

    Does this strike anyone else as a protection racket? Every so often some thugs gets sent around to collect some extrajudicial money from local businesses to keep bad things from happening? I don't think these fines have a basis in anything sane beyond that Russian courts will uphold them.

    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Protection?

      Does this strike anyone else as a protection racket? Every so often some thugs gets sent around to collect some extrajudicial money from local businesses to keep bad things from happening?

      The UK does this as well. Except it can be called things like 'TV Licence Enforcement', or 'PRS Enforcement'. Or just 'tax collection'.

      But such is politics. One of the major perks is the ability to create laws, which create revenue streams. A lot of this is why we have our current energy & inflation crisis.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Back to the future

    Communism failed, failed extensively, it still limps along

    Capitalism has mixed results and can be very unfair, not very inclusive

    Totalitarianism has great uniforms but you wouldn’t want to fall foul of it

    USSR 2.0 under Pooty-boy is a doomed shit-show.

    1. the Jim bloke Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Back to the future

      "Capitalism has mixed results and can be very unfair, not very inclusive"

      yes, Capitalism is great for the capitalists, but utterly sucks for the workers

      Every *ism is great for the relevant *ist, because basically every governing power structure exists for the enforcement of privilege.

      Communism and Socialism never got off the ground - they were hijacked by totalitarians right at the beginning. Democracy was stolen by the capitalists - because somebody had to be in charge, and all those competing voices werent achieving anything...

      The world has recently seen the rise of various populist sociopaths who can freely tell people whatever they want to hear while dismantling or discrediting any checks on their power.

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