FYI: BMW puts heated seats, other features behind paywall BMW is changing up a gear in its drive to charge people subscriptions for features in their cars, effectively putting functionality behind a paywall. Jalopnik this week reported the automaker is offering drivers in South Korea heated seats for $18 a month; a $300 fee to permanently access Apple CarPlay; $8.50 a month for …
Inmate #1: What are you in for?
Inmate #2: I got life for manually heating my car seats.
Inmate #1: What? How is that possible?
Inmate #2: I circumvented the switch-box and installed a manual switch on the wires.
Inmate #1: You got life for modding your own car?
Inmate #2: Yeah, the switch-box was a digital rights management device. Circumventing it made me a vicious pirate, also because I posted a step-by-step blog of my mod. The car company sued me for all I owned and the DA wanted an example of the consequences of assuming you own your computerized stuff and crossing the profit margins of corporate rule.
Inmate #1: Pfew! I got lucky. I shot a nobody and it got me 5 years for manslaughter. And then, during trial I killed my lawyer and got community service for that deed. Boy did that judge hate that lawyer.
BMW just released additional monthly charges. $9.99 per month subscription to be able to unlock the doors to be able to enter the car. $19.99 per month to unlock the doors once in to be able to exit the car. $29.99 to be able to start the engine, but this subscription requires the other two.
BWM is just trying to be at the cutting edge of randsomware, which is what this is.
Obligatory quote:
"So, if you mention extortion again, I'll have your legs broken." - Mayor Carmine DePasto (Animal House - 1978, Present VP of Marketing at BMW)
The option to start the engine has no prerequisite explicitly stated but the fact that you need to be INSIDE the car.
So people can buy it first, and then realise that they need the other 2, at a premium price this time.
And there is also the "Brakes" option, that sells at $49.99 a month, to be renewed 4 weeks before it is due and price going up $10 for each week after (the effective subscription price becoming the new monthly fee), and automatic disabling at 17:00 on the day it expires.
£15 a month to unlock the button on the heated seats you already have? Yeah, that's going to go down well with BMW Drivers.
Even people who aren't happy either manually doing modifications to the car wiring or taking them to an garage who'll do it will be finding these heated seat cushions that simply plug into the existing cigarette lighter socket pretty quickly.
And the best of it? They cost £25 quid as a one off purchase; cheaper than 2 months worth of the subscription.
Fine, until:
BMW notice this, and OTA update: your ciggie lighter 12v socket is now £25/month
(runs power outlet straight from battery)
"Engine management warning, detected unknown power drain, now in limp mode, please go directly to dealer, do not pass go, do not stop for lube"
"Even people who aren't happy either manually doing modifications to the car wiring or taking them to an garage who'll do it will be finding these heated seat cushions that simply plug into the existing cigarette lighter socket pretty quickly."
I'm going to have a set of those come winter!
An EV that I fancy has a couple of different trim levels and the heated seats come packaged with the sun roof which I do not want (major failures eventually and I never find myself needing to look up through the roof) and a bunch of other things I can do without. I was thinking that I could get the bog standard model and hit the scrap yards for a set of the heated seats and the switch from a wrecked car. Many cars have the options fitted in the wiring loom since it's cheaper to do it that way than to have several different inventory items and dealers can upgrade without digging into the fabric of a new car and messing things up. The aftermarket heating pads are likely much cheaper and easy to replace when they fail.
Most cars (in the UK at least) aren't bought any more. People just pay a monthly fee for 3 or 4 years then return the car. I'm sure all these 'optional' extras will be added to bundles as we see already. Winter Pack, Adventure Pack etc etc.
I don't think it will make much difference to the purchase of a NEW car.
Interesting bit will be what happens in the 2nd hand market. All the optional extras generally have a zero price as far as the resell price is concerned. If you buy 2nd hand on a loan of (say) £200 per month, are you really going to be willing to pay half as much again for the extras?
Yeah I think this is a big part of the justification internally too: When you sell your car your account isn't transferable, so your subscriptions end.
I have a(n extensively) used 2015 i3 and I guess this was a test model for the "connected drive store", since this is where I have to pay if I want map updates, online access, etc.
"Most cars (in the UK at least) aren't bought any more. People just pay a monthly fee for 3 or 4 years then return the car."
At least until all those "smart young things", renting everything, owning nothing, start approaching pension age and suddenly realise they should have been paying into their pension pot, not renting heated seats and will not have a car once the pension kicks in and the salary stops, and now can't afford 90% of the "stuff" they've been renting all their lives.
That's probably be the next "pensions crisis".
"That's probably be the next "pensions crisis"."
They just sell some heroin blatantly on a street corner so they can plead guilty and get a nice long sentence. There are some prisons now with a pensioners wing. 3 hots and a cot plus a bunch of other old folks for a nice game of canasta or the old favorite of one upsmanship made famous by Monty Python's "Four Yorkshireman". There was a TV special on that. It's a bit sad, but many old people that have lost everybody and can't make ends meet wind up taking this route so they can live indoors and eat on a regular basis. The prisons are more expensive to operate than an old folks home, but they don't really need to guard these "criminals" and any fights last about 2 seconds until somebody falls down and needs to go to hospital for a broken hip.
The clue is in the question, still going strong. If they sell you a car that lasts 20+ years, that's no more business for them for that amount of time. They's much rather sell you something shiny and new, which the bottom rusts out of in 10 years. The more expensive the car, the more likely this is to happen, because that repeat business is more valuable to them.
Used to have the Mercedes and Peugeot import company in my country as one of my customers. They had the whole stack, both selling new cars, workshops, parts etc.
The money for THEM (they told me) was in service and repairs. Selling a new car got them next to nothing.
Of course, the producer is a different matter. Still, used to be they gave something to those further down the chain. But these days it seems to be all about monthly subscriptions and to heck with everyone else.
I dread the day I have to replace my by now 21 year old Volvo.
I guess the question here is whether or not you have actually paid for the part of the car covered by the subscription model, or if BMW are just using this as a way to essentially reduce their lineup to a single build-spec per model, with the spec features normally offered only on the higher-spec models or as optional extras on lower-spec models being physically present in ALL cars, but only enabled either at the factory when someone opts to purchase a "higher spec" model from the outset, or post-purchase by the owner as and when they think to themselves "damnit, I really wish I'd opted for feature X now"...
I can see this being a potentially very smart move for BMW if it means they can rationalise how many different versions of the same component - reduced inventory costs/greater economies of scale - and also reduce how many different options the production line workers need to deal with when building each individual car - potentially reducing the time taken to build each car, or increasing the build quality by giving workers fewer different build procedures they need to be trained for.
It'd also bring benefits to anyone looking to buy a used BMW, because every such car that hits the second hand market then has the capability of being reinitialised to whichever spec level the next buyer wants - the only things they'd be stuck with from the original buyer would be those things that couldn't be accommodated with a simple on/off switch, such as wheel styles/sizes, bodyshell colour etc. Imagine being able to head to your local used car dealer knowing that, so long as they had *any* BMW model XYZ's in stock, you'd be able to reconfigure any of them with whichever spec level you wanted, rather than either having to patiently wait for the right spec level to show up in a dealer somewhere, or compromise on spec just because you needed to get a car sooner rather than later...
Now, there absolutely is real scope for BMW to use this as an opportunity to double-charge owners for access to certain features, but let's not overlook the potential benefits.
You have a point, but I think it will very much depend on the uptake of the many and varied subscriptions for the various features. There will be a breakeven threshold and if it's not met, it could cost them a pretty penny. I suspect that's why they are trying it out in SK. They love their gadgets there.
They will get to a point where its "too old" to support, and won't be able to enable features.
This may happen even if you're the 1st owner 10 years down the line, even if you paid to permanently unlock something.
They even say "as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle".
Probably the entire car stops working as it will have detected tampering.
We are not far off that with all the CANBus stuff now anyway,
Utter tossers, the trouble is that people will pay validating BMW's decision to go down this route. Certainly in the UK most cars are on some sort of personal leasing or corporate leasing when they are purchased new so a few extra pounds a month will just be absorbed. What happens when the car is then sold on is anyone's guess.
What happens if you decide to replace the seat with a new heated seat?
Sure, it >might< void warrantees, but it's your car*: You can mod it if you want, as long as it conforms to the standards as set in law.
So go for it: Take the old seat out, get a new heated seat (hey, guess what you just found sitting there by the car! A car seat that matches the car, and it's wired for heating!) After market parts to control the heating element and... sorted!
*If the car is registered in your name then it's your car legally and you can mod it. Only thing to watch for is if you're on a PPP, then you need to be mindful of the T's and C's, so you might need to put the original seat back in and remove the mods before returning the car, if that's what you decide to so.
>If the car is registered in your name then it's your car legally and you can mod it.<
The registration confers nothing of the kind, at least in the UK. It only means you have legal authority to keep it.
I.E. Registered KEEPER.
I think you are missing the base point here, The car has all the extras already built in, but are inactive until an extra dollop of cash allows some or all of them to be activated on a rental basis.
Yeah, and they are stupid too: they should have implemented demand based gouging: summertime $1/mo, winter $49.99/mo, below -10 C $149.99/mo. What a wasted opportunity.
They are probably crying bitterly that seat belts, headlights and wipers are required in MOT. But wait, there is always lobbying…
I would've considered paying for that on the tractor last year.
It was getting really really hot in the cab and I couldn't work out why. Aircon on full blast. I felt like a chunk of roast pork, hardly suprising in summer when you're in a mobile greenhouse with a bloody big 120hp heater at the front, shut in a cab with a rogue heater. I put a towel on the seat which helped, but it was still far too hot. After a few days I had to look at the manual (only an amateur has to look at the manual) and found a tiny switch on the seat in an obscure position you'd never expect that had got pressed by accident and turned the seat heater on.
Didn't even know it was there.
”Same thing, but so much more on trend (do people still say that?) don't you think?”
I’m so out of the loop*, surge prising of course! I definitely need some help before I approach** Beemer with my*** devilish innovations. Come along to be my advisor? We’ll split licensing fees and laugh together on our way to bank.
* I got that right, didn’t I? Oh wait, that’s so noughties…
** Reach?
*** Stolen, er, borrowed from El Reg.
If you read the laws carefully, you may discover that these equipments are required to be installed, but there is nothing that says that they are supposed to work outside the time there is a control...
And we already know that automakers know how to detect a control is performed, don't we?
well, heating hardware has been licenced, presumably. I mean, hell, if you look at an average laptop, which is a jumble sale of bits and pieces from various manufacturers, presumably they ALL have been licenced to that laptop 'brand', haven't they?
The good thing about T & C for software is you don't have to read it, especially if you don't intend using the software. Also worth noting that the majority of EULAs etc are unenforceable outside the US as they generally infringe on the odd statutory right here and there.
Not the car owner by the looks of it.
If you go to their site you have monthly, yearly, and 3 yearly subscriptions. The is also a unlimited option for £350. But only unlimited has this little note "[1] Unlimited as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle"
Now idea what that means but I would guess that they may change something at a later date on their servers meaning your car can no longer talk to them. When that happens heated seats will no longer work as they won't get an authentication signal.
That note is on all they extras that have an unlimited choice cruse control, adaptive suspension etc. Looks like at some time in the future they could all be turned off.
"Who actually owns the heating hardware?"
You own the hardware, but you don't own the software/firmware in the car. If you mod the software, you are committing a felony in some countries that have adopted the really horrible USA DMCA laws. You are thinking "ok, fine, I'll just bypass the normal control electronics in the car and buy something third party or brew up my own". What happens is the car doesn't detect the heating elements and throw ups a code that will keep you from passing your next MOT. It might be a code that requires you to take the car to a dealer for a very special reset procedure and that will cost you, but you will have no choice and they know it, you naughty boy, you.
As soon as these games are played, there doesn't seem to be a good outcome. You could find down the road that something breaks you can live without but it causes other problems that can't be ignored for whatever reason. For want of a £8,000 ECU, the car was useless. Never mind that you never use the medium fan setting on the HVAC anyway.
"For want of a £8,000 ECU, the car was useless."
So install an aftermarket ECU that is actually user programmable for under $2000, possibly under $1500, maybe even under $1000 if you're not planning on hotrodding it. Prices include all the bits of wiring harness you night need to facilitate the swap. There are several name-brands to choose from. I don't recommend the chinesium varietals.
You can get a perfectly good NEW car without crap like that.
$18 a month warranty on the $30 (see Amazon) car seat heater? Are you for real? I also doubt it has any warranty with it.
Don't enter into any contract with BMW on the purchase of a new car, here they're trying to force you to lease an overpriced car seat heater, but they could do all manner of shit there:
e.g. force you to use their official parts service, or only service at their dealerships, or only fuel at approved filling stations (think kickback), or only travel on approved ferries, or force you to use certain toll roads for certain journies.....
e.g. agree to track and resell your location data to ad people, or agree to sell your car usage data metrics to insurance companies, to creepy governments etc.. This is already a big issue with connected cars.
Imagine the kickback BMW could get if they let an insurance company wiggle out of their policy with you by citing the car usage data against you (Musk style).
Or the kickback they could get from auto-fines for reporting you travelling 70kmh in a 60kmh zone, from your location data.
BMW do not make batteries, but they do buy batteries from Varta (?), slap their part number on them and resell them at huge markup. A contract like that would let them extract huge future profit from you just on parts alone if you had no choice and couldn't say "nope that price is too high I will buy the Varta battery instead of the badge BMW/Varta battery".
There was, but that was a little different IIRC.
It was bought from a dealership who had had autopilot enabled so it coukd be demo'd on test drives. It was then sold without autopilot, but they forgot to turn it off initially.
Still a good example though tbh.
It all feels like gouging - if the hardware is installed then presumably what you paid for the car covers it (otherwise they'd be making a loss). There's no ongoing cost to them of you being able to use the heated seats.
I remember having a similar argument with Audi - the car's head unit supported being connected to a CD changer, but you couldn't just do it yourself because it had to be enabled in the ECU (well, the body computer really). Really is just rampant profiteering.
I had a Honda like that, but the reason for the different configurations was to meet varying emissions rules. So in the UK my car was restricted to lower performance than it would be in Japan, since at the time the UK had stricter emission rules. There was even a variant of the same car with a more powerful engine that was only available in Japan for the same reasons.
"Flashing the ECU with the software for a more expensive model can sometimes get you 50 extra horsepower."
A friend of mine did that and only because he knew the service manager at the dealership very well was he able to get the engine replaced when it went boom. Just saying that doesn't always work so well. In days long gone, it wasn't too big of an ask to tune up an engine for a bunch more power. They aren't built with that much margin in them anymore.
"It all feels like gouging - if the hardware is installed then presumably what you paid for the car covers it (otherwise they'd be making a loss). There's no ongoing cost to them of you being able to use the heated seats."
That's perfectly true... Counterintuitively, it is cheaper for BMW* to produce all cars at the highest hardware spec than to put in only the hardware that has been ordered and paid for. That's because the physical cost of the parts is less than the manufacturing cost of having to keep track of which part goes into which car. (That alone should tell you enough about how much they are overcharging for the extras - they charge hundreds of dollars for hardware that costs them dollars).
So why don't BMW just produce a single top-spec version of each model instead of various options with different specs? Simple, they don't want to lose out on the customers willing to pay $60k by pricing the car at $80k, but they also want people who can afford $80k to pay $80k, so they "need" to have different pricing available even if it's pretty much the same thing. And they somehow have to justify the difference in pricing even though they sell both customers the same car.
It's the same principle as Starbucks or any other coffee shop really... the bewildering array of options (bonus if in pseudo Italian) and flavourings is there to mask the fact that they want to be able to charge richer customers more than poor customers for what is essentially the same product (hot water with some sort of additives), all of which have the same basic cost to them (because their major cost is rents and wages, and the raw material going into the drink is almost a rounding error in their budget)
*and all other carmakers, by the way
Counterintuitively and totally false.
They buy their seats from suppliers like Magna, Magna do not throw in electric heating in the seat for free. Each seat is matched to the trim and interious color and style of each car, everything from the heating to any massage feature is part of that order and can be car specific. BMW pays for that feature, and that cost is passed on to you. BMW know the exact part number, and serial number of each and every part in the car. Not just the *type* of part, the individial production serial number.
https://www.just-auto.com/news/magna-opens-first-bmw-seat-supply-factory/
They, like every other manufacturer try to make as much money selling a feature as possible, and like many before it, BMW thinks it can screw over its customers to maximize profit. You won't pay $18 a month for heated seats because that's a ridiculous price, but when your ass is super cold you might.
It’s certainly true that BMWs component cost rises. But their overall production cost may well fall.
You’re actually *understating* the amount of customisability and tracking. Recent report I saw said one car company had 70,000 potential option variants for one of its models. And out of those 70,000 variants, combinatorially, 98% of them they sell *zero or one units per year*. But they still have to arrange their entire assembly line to manage all options. They’ve worked out that they could reduce their total build time end-to-end from *four months to six weeks*, if they could build only the 2% of variants that anybody buys. But they don’t know which ones those are until after they start selling, when the production line is already fixed.
Imagine the savings in logistics and storage, plus capital efficiency, by more than halving their build time. And that’s still selling 1400 variants. Not even focusing on the top 100.
This is a rod the car companies made for their own back. Their problem is, the only reason to pay the new car premium vs second hand, is to give customers the experience of buying bespoke cars. But the production cost of doing so is killing the car companies. And they can’t get off the treadmill, because their competitors do it. Used to be you got a choice of three engines, three body-shapes, five colours, maybe electric windows and that’s that. 100 variants. That was a classic industrial production-line. But it no longer is.
"You won't pay $18 a month for heated seats because that's a ridiculous price, but when your ass is super cold you might."
And then you hit the auto-pay button or it's the default and you never have to deal with it again. Most auto-pay schemes are a way to get you to not make a conscious decision each month whether to continue getting something or not. Wonder why you are alway broke on the last day of the month? Take a close look at all of that stuff that eats away at your bank account.
"it is cheaper for BMW* to produce all cars at the highest hardware spec than to put in only the hardware that has been ordered and paid for"
Japanese TV makers learned this one a long time ago - and they generally just bundled everything.
It's actually cheaper and more profitable to "enable everything" and sell for a lower overall price than to nickle-and-dime the customer for every little feature
The mentality we're looking at is exactly what drove people away from buying British cars back in the 1960s (along with absolutely rotten quality) and is a good indicator that the companies in question have been taken over by spivs
"It's actually cheaper and more profitable to "enable everything" and sell for a lower overall price than to nickle-and-dime the customer for every little feature"
That was true when those features had to be sold once and done. A monthly or annual subscription is a profit center that keeps on giving.
Paying Adobe every year for Lightroom and Photoshop turned out to be a good deal and they haven't done a bait and switch like I worried about in the beginning. I'm paying less than I did with the boxed software and I'm getting more so for this case a subscription seems to work. For many other things, I want to own it outright as it stands and then decide when it makes sense to upgrade.
"Counterintuitively, it is cheaper for BMW* to produce all cars at the highest hardware spec than to put in only the hardware that has been ordered and paid for. That's because the physical cost of the parts is less than the manufacturing cost of having to keep track of which part goes into which car"
Nope, BMW's Mini plant in the UK builds Mini's where every car coming down the line is a bit different than the last. The parts are sequenced at the build stations and the travelers (build docs) tell each station what gets installed or skipped. Nearly every one of those are destined for a customer order.
James May, Kate Humble and another presenter I can't ever remember did a 3-part series where they followed a Mini build from coiled steel to final checks (well, almost). Definitely worth finding and watching.
I think it's more that grouping all of the options they want to offer is getting harder so they can just sell options ala carte for even more money than they'd get if a person ordered up special. Most options are not very expensive but have the highest profit margins. The name brand stereo is built in China with everything else, but you get more speakers and they have a badge on them from a company that used to put out good stuff until they were sold several owners back and finally to the same multi-national that makes all of that.
"It was bought from a dealership who had had autopilot enabled so it coukd be demo'd on test drives. It was then sold without autopilot, but they forgot to turn it off initially."
There was another story where the previous owner of the car had a subscription to the Autopilot/FSD/BS system and the car was sold on through auction with the option advertised as being installed and was working when sold to the customer when the option was disabled by Tesla after a period of time and the fun began. It turns out that Tesla sells the subscription to the option to the owner, not as something that's licensed to a particular car so the owner could swap cars and assign the subscription to their new car. It was likened to having aircon fitted at a time when it was an option, it went with the car when it was sold on and not something the seller would have removed or could demand after the new owner took possession.
"Sounds like an excellent reason to stick to the used car market for now. "
Now being the operative word. Come the next decade a car sale/transfer will be a manufacturer disconnection with a re-connection fee re-activate the vehicle. Plus an extra sub to stop the 'in-car-entertainment' playing all the optional exciting added functionality subscription ads they forgot to add when sold new. Like turning the heat on in winter & AC in summer.
Roller blades may be the alternate freewheeling future ... except they may infringe BMW's RR trademark ;-)
"Come the next decade a car sale/transfer will be a manufacturer disconnection with a re-connection fee re-activate the vehicle"
At that point the vehicle becomes the property of "my vehicle trust, inc" and the transfer becomes one of shifting the trust instead of the asset
Or, there are "market rearrangements" (forced by governments legislating or by someone entering the market who doesn't pull these underhanded stunts)
The spectacular ethics gaps of USA companies (Uber's bribery and corruption antics in the EU for example) now coming to light is likely to result in a pretty large kneejerk clampdown on a lot of stuff over the next decade
You think you’re joking but there was a kerfuffle a few months ago - sorry, CBA to look up the details - about a motorbike jacket with a built-in airbag, where the airbag functionality had a monthly subscription to enable it.
Come off your bike and are flying through the air towards a telephone pole? Welp, better have your credit card ready to renew that airbag subscription…
Are you being tongue in cheek or do you genuinely not understand that air con is useful for more things than just cooling a car interior?
It is most useful right through the winter, especially on chilly mornings. This is the kind of discussion I have have to have with my grandparents.
Yeah, had to go in a taxi a month or so back and they didn't have the air con on, oh boy do modern cars steam up quickly without AC. I used to think my Hillman Imp was bad back in the day, but I guess it leaked like a sieve so there was always so air circulation. This Merc must have been done up tighter than a politician on the witness stand. The driver kept having to try things like the heater, works for a minute, open the window, that works a bit better but the weather wasn't good...
Ah, but the AC is the biggest fuel drain killer. Put it on and watch your fuel gauge move quickly.
It might be a noticeable difference when idling, but otherwise it's a rounding error.
As an illustration, last year I both got the broken air-con in my car fixed, and had a full service and oil change. The fuel efficiency didn't noticeable change after fixing the air-con (still doing around 300 miles to the tank), but after the service it improved to about 330 miles to the tank.
The biggest fuel drain killers are probably worn spark plugs and old oil. The air con compressor is driven by a tiny belt and flywheel attached to the engine, in order to compress a relatively small amount of freon, whereas the engine is driving the wheels on a tonne or so of metal. The amount of energy used by each is not comparable.
"The air con compressor is driven by a tiny belt and flywheel attached to the engine, in order to compress a relatively small amount of freon"
Depending on your car and how fast you're going, there could be a big aerodynamic difference between windows up and windows down. Windows up and aircon on might be more efficient at motorway speeds.
"Well I had an old 1997 bmw e36 and the air conditioning compressor seized, brought the car to a complete halt. So in that case it did drain the engine power completely."
I know that most e36s were under-powered heaps of shit, but that doesn't sound quite right. Every time I've had an engine-driven accessory seize, the drive belt has snapped instantly (or burned through, if loose) and the motor kept going as if nothing had happened.
Jailbreak the features. No jury of car owners would convict. You paid for the car, you own it.
I read a novel set in the near future where characters chose old cars because they didn't have surveillance features and hackable crapware. The future has already arrived and wants to take over the spare bedroom...
The modern thing I was lent by the garage recently was so full of techno shit that I think I'd rather walk than own one. Just who the **** needs to have a lighting system in the car which changes colour depending on the spot market price of brussels sprouts and needs 50 pages in the manual to explain?
I'm a petrol head and a geek but this sort of shit is crazy.
Don’t forget the whole “let’s put EVERY vehicle control on a touch screen, which has no tactile feedback whatsoever and is really difficult to prod at accurately without taking your eyes off the road when you’re in motion on any road that isn’t glass-smooth”, which is my personal pet-hate-du-jour (ok, and long-sentence-du-jour, touché)
Icon… that’s me, that is.
Bit off topic but the best one i came across was for my snow chains.... They had a big "FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY* notice stuck on them. Then for fitting instructions..... go to youtube.com/whatever. Wasn't much use when you're up to your chuff in snow, half way down a mountain in a full on blizzard and no mobile signal. 3 days I was stuck there.
Chains can be a right pig to fit, it's always best to practice before you go, preferably in a nice dry garage. Even with the instructions you don't want to be figuring it out for the first time in the dark, at -10C and with falling snow. Or just fit winter tyres, even in the UK they help on cold days.
I'd go further.
Practice in advance by all means, but it won't prepare you for the cold, wet, darkness and dealing with the fact that you beached the car in a snow drift. You will need something to kneel on (flattened cardboard boxes will do), some warm gloves, a powerful torch, ideally one that you can stand up and point hands-free, and a shovel.
-A.
OK, I say manual
But what I mean is app on the phone or website or some sort of childish ebook not a usable bit of paper.
The electronic manual will almost certainly not have any entries for anything you might actually want to know such as what the instruments on the dash panel are telling you. If you can even workout what they might have called the dashboard there may well be hundreds of entries on how you can customize it and even have different settings for different drivers (keys) but they would rather shoot themselves than explain what the dials mean. Speedo and Rev counter should be obvious. It won't have a temperature gauge or oil pressure because that might be useful in stopping the engine dying when its no longer a shiny new toy. So they start to get inventive and secretive.
There are probably whole sections on how to have the interior colour scheme change according to what some of these gauges are doing.
I'm with AC on this - I need five wheels (four on the road and one to steer) and brakes. We buy basic model recent used cars, maintain them scrupulously and keep them forever. We have a 14 year old car (175K miles) and a "new" six year old car (98K miles - it's the one we use for long trips). Last car we sold on was pushing 300K. New shiny doesn't beat having the $$ in the bank to buy the next one cash.
My "new" car that I bought in 2019 was made in 2003 and had 380,000kms on it.
The previous owner poured more than it was worth into it including a new diesel motor that only had 30,000kms on it by the time I got it so it should be good for another 20 years or so.
It ain't pretty, but neither am I.
This replaced my 1991 truck that became a bit unreliable after 400,000kms. I bought it in 1998 still have it and plan to fix it up for use at the cabin until it turns to powder.
My older car was made in 1973 with unknown miles due to a 5 digit speedometer has 500hp and I can rebuild the motor in a weekend if I had to for about a 2-3 months worth of new car payments.
"You paid for the car, you own it."
BMW owners, most of the ones I've met have had their common sense glands removed by the BMW dealer, don't give a toss how much it costs to have that black/blue logo on the front of their four wheeled penile extension. There will be a clause in the contract when you buy a BMW that states you own everything except the software running in the ECU. Oh wait, nothing works on the car with the ECU software, shame, better cough up those £150/month subs you mugs!
Exactly I forsee a huge black market for back street garages to get you all the subscription features for a one of fee if the kit is already in their and just waiting for some software download to say its ok to use it.
New car sold in the EU now have to have speed regulators fitted since earlier this month, so i expect that another thing the dodgy garage will disable for you if you want ;)
not so fast, you paedo-terrorist! BMW, and their partners, through a host of undisclosed, but highly sophisticated technological solutions, have you in their cross-hair. You think you can remove the gps and hack the rest? Sorry Dave, I can't do that, and Dave, we know who you are and where you are and the police are already on the way, so please don't embarrass yourself and your family and neighbours by trying to run...
at some point, in not so distant future, a police stop will involve the police plugging their thingy into 'your' car and checking ALL your licences...
...
sorry, not 'police', but the 'outsourced' dodgy biz doing all that. As already happens when you go through airport security, etc.
the police won't have to plug anything... it's all done remotely via radio.
These days they can already check tachograph systems remotely, including driver cards and work schedules... but the communications protocol is actually designed for all vehicles (V2X) not just tachograph devices.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32016R0799
My new-ish car was purchased used. The satnav feature on the touchscreen is not enabled. The dealer can use a code to enable it for $1200 (last time I checked).
I've been looking for a keygen for the code for a while now. The car is old enough to not phone home. I use my phone or tablet for satnav, but it would be nice to have the built-in one working. It would not be $1200 worth of nice however.
I'm in Aussie and we have a system called a "novated lease" which can provide a variety of tax advantages when you are after a new car. This is generally how I get cars nowadays. Other jurisdictions may or may not have similar schemes of course.
I'm not sure how a "feature" could be factored into the lease agreement under the Aussie system, but either way when I select the options on a car, they have their cost next to them, I pay (or the leasing arrangement pays) and I drive off in the thing and all of those features remain in place for the life of the car. No way am I paying some stupid subscription for heated seats or anything else they try to lug me with.
I don't 'rather' suspect the other manufacturers will try to follow. I'm pretty sure they're watching intently and they WILL follow, asap. As usual, this will start with a 'premium' range, and casdade, rather sooner than later, to the rest. And then, it will be trivial to convince some politicians that children! terrorists! etc! and registration of new cars / brands without certain options, will not be possible, say, in a land, let's call it, for the laugh, a United Kingdom of England & Wales. Not that those fine policians on the continent need any more 'convicing'. Next (if not parallel) step will be the subscription model, as in whole car subscription, 'which only makes sense' ;)
"I don't 'rather' suspect the other manufacturers will try to follow. I'm pretty sure they're watching intently and they WILL follow, asap."
And then we are back to Dave's all night auto mods. Maybe there will be replacement boxes on Alibaba where you send them the the serial and rev number on your black box and your unlocked box arrives a week later in the post. Send them back the one you replace for your deposit back.
Past a certain point and people are going to drive their dodgy old white van to Belgium to buy a year's worth of smokes and save the money on the taxes.
Well that’s BMW off my car list. Tbh they already were. But now the back office has to support a feature licensing system for what, 20 years? That’s going to cost more than just adding options at the factory as now, surely?
And what about when the car gets old and loses its marbles? Old Golf models that open all windows when you unlock the doors comes to mind. Then it’s finger pointing between features and licensing staff as to who’s to blame.
This is storing much trouble downstream for the sake of more revenue now, imho.
nope..support is really easy: each year model probably gets a year-specific server / virtual machine instance to keep connected services management at a predictible, uniform stable version and that also allows for easy termination of services when all that year's model vehicles are definitely out of warranty: just shut down the virtual machine.
They will likely only support it for the warranty period and will shut down the server instance that supports that year's model after all the vehicles of that year are out of warranty (3 or 5 years usually).
If they really have (literal) hot-seat subscribers for that year's model they will probably keep the virtual machines for that series running a bit longer, to milk the subscription fees, but as soon as the subscriber count drops below a "profitable" number they will announce it's no longer economically viable to provide those services and will terminate all remaining subscribers for that year / version.
of course... but this is basically the same support model that Samsung / Huawei / HTC / Sony / Lenovo / ASUS / etc... pretty much all connected electronics vendors are using, so it's nothing new.
Phones, laptops, motherboards, smart TVs, connected vehicles .... you name it, once their initial warranties are expired they become obsolete as far as the manufacturer is concerned and it's no longer their problem.
Once warranties end for a model / year... they no longer publish any updates at all and after another year or two, when you unbox a "new, old stock" phone (or other smart connected device), you can't even get to install the updates they have already published in the past - this is because they have now nuked the server instance that was tasked with serving updates for that year of launched models.
In 2015, my less-than-7-months old Moto phone was declared by them to be "no longer supported" despite the fact it was launched in the same year at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona (early march 2015).
Planned obsolescence at its finest.
I had to root it and managed to install LineageOS on it... it still runs today but is stuck with LineageOS 17.1 (Android 10) latest version is from february 2022, quite a good stretch, for a device launched in 2015 and abandined by its manufacturer during the same year.
TBF, it was a deliberate feature* the Vdubs based cars had (not just the Golf or even VW), where holding the key against the spring in the unlock position for a couple of seconds would open all the electric windows.
The actual bug was passenger windows sometimes opening when you locked the car and walked away.
*90% certain it's in the manual.
Given that most BMW's around where I live appear to be driven by kids who earn just enough for each month's car payment, then I can't see them complaining at all. Most people I know under 40 seem to be happy renting everything, so just add this to the never ending list of outgoings. Madness IMHO, but to each, their own.
As for me, it's an emphatic 'No!'. If I buy something, then I own it*. (Not that I would ever consider buying anything with a premium / fashionable badge on it)
* No MS software was used to post this message
that's ok by the biz model, the old die out and the young keep renting, and the WHOLE population falls for this. Not if, but when. Give me a child until he is 19 and I will show you the licence holder, but hey, can't we just speak to a politician or two, to make it '17'? Cause, you know...
This problem with this is that the rent it "cheap" model is based on a healthy resale value. If the new car customer is renting it from the manufacture than the manufacture ends up owning the risk.
Second hand buyers are generally much more cost sensitive.
So with any luck they'll end up shooting themselves in the foot
Most cars these days are on subscription anyway, not just the options, the whole car. Leasing or PCP is the most popular way to drive a new car, outright purchases of new cars are a small minority.
So what’s the difference? A variation in the monthly payment based on what options are enabled?
Currently, you can load up options or go through higher spec versions on PCP because the cost is lost in the monthly payment and the offset of the resale value vs the final settlement value.
The article doesn’t say if the car buyer will set the options permanently for the term of the deal or if options can be added or removed during the term. If the former then there is no difference to the standard PCP/lease buyer unless they want to pay the final settlement to keep the car (rare occurrence).
Used buyers are more affected.
It might make manufacturing cheaper. In the normal case of you buying the features you want the factory need a complicated build management system to keep track of what options to install on which cars. I guess with this scheme they just whack everything into each car and decide later which bits to turn on or off. There will be a cost saving in the manufacturing process and staff training.
They're probably pre-inflating the base price to cover the cost of the installation of the extra kit and then everything they make from renting the features in pure profit.
"It might make manufacturing cheaper. In the normal case of you buying the features you want the factory need a complicated build management system to keep track of what options to install on which cars. "
They all have complicated build management systems that deal with all sorts of issues including custom option packages. If a vendor notifies them that some option will be out of stock (cheeky, I know), they can tell the system to not add cars in the queue that need those parts until they are available again. Right now some auto makers are building cars that are missing parts that can be installed later with not too much pain. The system keeps track of what's missing on each one of those incomplete cars, where that car is being stored and prioritizes parts assignments when they become available.
In about three years time they'll stop working altogether even if you wanted to pay and you'll have to buy a new car if you want heated seats.
1) Giant brand faceplant. Luxury brands should never be caught nickel and diming you. They should stick to charging 20x market rate for the accessories, and marking it down to 2.5x at the dealer if you buy at end of month. Your monthly customers will just roll it into their lease/finance agreement anyway.
2) Probably already illegal in some jurisdictions, but def should be in ALL. Heated seats aren't a service, they are a component. Adding cell service or a satellite radio subscription are different. Navigation software needs updates. Seat heaters are no more rational as a subscription service than the seats are.
3) this would probably still be brand destroying on a rental car, but is deranged on one that is paid for. Also opens a can of worms in jurisdictions where either the first sale doctrine applies, or on subsequent sales or transfers of ownership.
In the US, if you parked it on someone else's property they could process a lien of sale on it, which would not require them to allow the new owner to activate any of those services but would also prevent them from stopping you from wiring around them. That would be true even for a leased vehicle, though I don't imaging the leasing company would just let the lien sale slide. The only high end cars I have seen this level of nonsense on were track toys that were essentially on lease and probably not even street legal, on a road car it's a non-starter.
Snowy Mountains: Wikipedia... Even here, in one of the hotter bits, this morning it was 6ºC (Winter). I haven't driven a BMW since the 2002 (1971 model) - I don't intent to start renting bits of one now.
UK, many years ago a friend was proud of new car with heated seats % various other extras (back when heated seats were a rarity, might have been a beamer, it was some overpriced "luxury" saloon (spot who is not a car geek)).
To me, it just felt odd initially & as time passed it just got more strangely uncomfortable, made him switch mine off after a quarter of an hour of the drive he took us on.
Someone please explain to me the attraction of a heated seat as I just don't get it (if its cold I wear appropriate warm clothing, & my car has cloth seats so they don't really get extremely cold or hot (why does everyone I know with a "luxury" car have odd seat materials that are either freezer or kettle temperature depending on amount of sunshine entering the car)
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-35C & waiting for the car to warm up (Even after a 10 minute remote start outside the house) while brushing off enough snow for a avalanche* & digging a way to the road, heated seats are a godsend when you actually get to drive.
*Pun intended - It is actually a Avalanche.
I've had heated seats on cars with cloth seats. My parents Volvo they bought in 1982 had cloth seats and heated seats that automatically came on when the temperature dropped below a certain level, I think from 84 or so you had a manual switch. I like them, I also wear appropriate clothing for the weather. The heated seat heats you up inside the freezing cold car without requiring to use the climate control unit to heat the car & once warm switch it off. Using the CCU uses more fuel and takes heat away from the engine meaning it takes longer to get to operating temperature.
EV cars are recommended.to use heated seats & hheated steering wheel if fitted rather than the heater as it uses less power to run those meaning range won't drop more than necessary.
This is why the value of much older vehicles with limited electronics and vehicles that have less obtrusive electronics are rising in value so quickly.
Toyota tried this last year but backed down. They were a bit ambiguous over there remote connect service which came to light after someone read the small print.
I have a mate who lives in France and had a van which was on its last legs. He was about to scrap it, but for some reason he thought he'd pop it on an auction site to see if someone wanted it for parts. Apparently the bidding went mental as it was the last generation of Citroen(?) vans which didn't have all the electronics.
It turns out that the vans get exported to Africa, repaired and then get used pretty much for ever.
My Av's & (Ex Mrs Oncoming Scorn's Aveo) lost Onstar when CDMA was turned off for it, despite the offer of $500 discounted 3G replacement (Which has also recently been or about to be turned off).
Used it a grand total of twice (To unlock the cars - Once by my error & Costco's high gas filling station roof blocked most of the signal & when the aforementioned ex managed to outdo her self on her stupidity league table* locked her car with both keys inside, while inside our garage.
(unless I’ve missed a comment, in which case my apologies)
…is that this allows BMW to reset the feature/subscription when the car changes hands. *You* might have paid the $400 or whatever for “lifetime” heated seats, but I’m sure the seats will be deactivated as soon as you sell the car. See also the similar recent incident with a Tesla.
So it’s basically, perpetual revenue for BMW. It’s all aligned with the move in our own beloved IT industry towards <whatever>-as-a-service. Why sell your customer something once, for a one-off payment, when you can milk them for ever more, and for even more, on a monthly basis?
Grrrrr.
@David 132 “So it’s basically, perpetual revenue for BMW. It’s all aligned with the move in our own beloved IT industry towards <whatever>-as-a-service.”
But without the service part*. It’s not like they are going to upgrade your heated seats each year to the latest version or fix them if they stop working after the car warranty has finished. They are just leasing a bum warmer.
“Why sell your customer something once, for a one-off payment, when you can milk them for ever more, and for even more, on a monthly basis?”
Even with a one-off payment the customer is still being charged twice. All these optional extras are already fitted to the car and form part of its manufacturing costs, which the customer ultimately pays in the retail price.
*There are exceptions like sat nav with map updates.
"Many of them quit working with the 3G cellular deactivation, causing absolutely no outcry."
A person I worked with had a vintage BMW with an AMPS factory cell phone. Obviously that didn't work anymore. Ok, maybe it did work but there is no longer a network for it to connect to. Some things aren't good built in features for something that should last a couple of decades.
I hope BMW allow third party app stores and payment processing......
As in "No, I don't want your over priced Carplay, I'll use Audi's instead".......
After all Epic (and others) think that phones should have third party stores & payment systems and the only difference between a car and a phone nowadays is that the car has wheels and a motor.......
as something I pay for it had better work for the life of the car, or they'll never see me again. Not that BMW has had to worry about me since 1989, when I was driving a new rental with less than 1000kms on it. Drove about 200kms, and the freakin' driver front blinker was gone, as in no longer on the car, large hole where it was. I didn't hit anything either. All I recall was being in the passing lane on the Autobahn running about 190kmh, and I saw a yellow flash between me and the guardrail. No impacts or anyrhing. If that's the best they do at putting them together, PASS.
Yes, it's called buying the car.
If I buy a car, I expect all of it to work for the price I pay.
The only thing I am willing to pay for after the purchase of the vehicle is the yearly update of the GPS data.
And that is final.
Devil's advocate, bear with me....
I get if they fit heated seats, and you have to carry those around with you then you should be able to use them. That's utter bullshit.
What's the difference between paying for GPS maps, and updated neural nets for Tesla Autopilot?
(On Telsa, map updates are free. Autopilot enhancements like lane change are the only real optional extra)
Lucky you. I also live within cycling distance of work and a railway station. In fact, I live within walking distance of both, which is a lot more convenient, not just because I live at the top of a fucking great hill, which I don't really fancy cycling up.
If I had to get the train regularly, I'd still find it cheaper to use the car (it costs £100+ to get to That London from here by train, for example, which would also involve a change of trains, whilst the fuel to do so, even at today's prices would cost me about £50).
As it happens, I have a car for things that aren't getting to and from work, or a station. For instance, I have an allotment on the other side of town, which in this weather, needs watering at least every other day. Whilst I could get the bus there and back, it would turn a one hour job into a three hour one every day, and wouldn't be much help in getting buckets of kitchen waste to the compost heap a couple of times a week. Then, let's consider the shopping. Yes, I can buy from local shops* rather than driving to the supermarket and getting six bags of shopping at once, but that is going to cost me about twice as much. Again, public transport isn't much use when you have a car boot full of shopping to transport, is it?
I'm getting a bit sick of "holier-than-thou" preachy commenters o the internet who seem to think that everyone's circumstances are exactly the same as theirs.
*To be fair, I do actually do this where it is practical to do so. The local greengrocers are much cheaper and generally better quality than the supermarkets for fruit and veg, for example. However, I'm not going to assume that everyone has a local greengrocer, especially since housing costs mean a lot of people now live quite a distance from town centres and are pretty much forced to drive to the shops.
So long as they *are* offering a one-time fee for those inclined, how is it worse than having to order things specced from the factory? It allows the manufacturer to drastically reduce the number of models they have to produce, and it allows the consumer some modicum of choice. They're not taking previously free features and paywalling them - these are things that always had to be paid for in some way. In addition, it's become a rare thing over the years for people to custom order a new car - most now buy something off the lot that meets their requirements. In this way, the dealers don't need to keep so many different equipment variants in stock and so it's more likely you can find the car equipped the way you want on the lot. So it sounds like a good thing, even if it admittedly could be abused.
For new cars, anyhow. While I think it sounds like a win for those who buy new cars, it sounds like a minefield for user car buyers.
"In addition, it's become a rare thing over the years for people to custom order a new car - most now buy something off the lot that meets their requirements."
Citation needed - unless you meant buying a used car.
Driving a new car off the lot is unlikely because of supply chain problems. Last time I bought a new car (2019), I would have faced several months to just get a new Toyota no matter how I would have spec'd it, because of their 'Just In Time' process. The car would be built, painted and trimmed at the factory with whatever components you order, and AFAIK it doesn't really matter (time wise) what factory options you choose as long as they don't run out of components.
What I've read and heard, delivery times are much longer than before 2020 due to COVID.
It's a bit of a lottery at the moment. End of last year I asked a dealer about delivery times for a new car (a Škoda). He said 7 months if I placed an order to have a factory-build, but then he called me two days later to say that they'd just had two delivered from the factory, rather to his surprise.
My wife ordered a new Ford via Motability. As well as many common options being unavailable, delivery date has moved from April to September and the colour has changed twice because of a shrinking choice. Apparently JIT assembly no longer involves actual resource planning, it's just what's in the parts bin on the day.
The only two times I bought a brand spanking new vehicle, it was literally was from the pick of what was on the forecourt.
Recent years with Covid have seen forecourts rather bare, though I did pass one dealership that was about half full of new inventory the other day.
@Chz "It allows the manufacturer to drastically reduce the number of models they have to produce"
No it really doesn't. Adding seat heating £350 for a one off payment to every car in the model range means they have to produce only one seat before they upholster it. But they have added a £350 item to every car in the model range. Over the run of the model there going to be a huge number of cars that will never have the feature activated. All that waste to have 1 instead of base seats.
Not much of a saving in variants of a car that will come off the line. When there are 12 different upholstery choices, 13 paint choices, 6 engine choices and 5 wheel choices. Follow link bellow.
https://configure.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/configure/G83/M4AX/FLKSW,P0300,S01CB,S01DF,S01MB,S01U0,S0230,S02PA,S02T4,S02VB,S02VC,S02VF,S0302,S03M5,S03MF,S0428,S0430,S0431,S0459,S0488,S0493,S0494,S04GQ,S04MC,S04NE,S04NH,S04U0,S0534,S0544,S05AC,S05AS,S05AV,S05DA,S05DM,S0610,S0654,S0688,S06AE,S06AF,S06AK,S06C4,S06NW,S06U3,S06UX,S06WD,S0712,S0760,S0775,S07M9,S0812,S0850,S0853,S0880,S08KA,S08R9,S08S2,S08S3,S08SM,S08TF,S08TG,S08WL?expanded=true
Maybe it does only cost BMW £30. But over the a model run say maybe 5 years how many heating units will have been fitted that were never wanted or used. How much waste is that?
How much mark up will have been added to that £30 item that every owner will pay even if they never activate it?
This sort of thing (fitting parts that aren't ever used) ALREADY occurs in the car industry - chances are most cars built in the last decade or so will have at least one extra bit of hardware fitted which serves no purpose for the given spec level of that particular car.
Even if it's just a single extra wire in a wiring loom that, on the highest spec level version of tha car, enables a feature that isn't present on any of the lower spec models, that's still a waste of materials. But manufacturers will do it, and take the hit on the additional cost of including that extra wire in every loom they fit, because overall it works out better for them to only need to source/stock one version of the loom - if you're buying a million looms all of the same spec with one extra wire, chances are the additional material cost will pale into insignificance compared with the additional tooling costs of getting your loom provider to build you 999,000 versions of the standard loom and then 1000 versions with just that one extra wire added.
Car manufacturers aren't stupid, they'll know exactly how much it'll cost them to include a part in every car they build vs the cost of including it only in those cars where the buyer has specced it. And if they calculate that it's cheaper to just chuck that part into every car, even if 99% of the time it's never then used, then so be it. If, as BMW are now proposing, they can potentially then earn even more profit by allowing anyone (not just the original buyer) who owns that car in future to opt into having that part enabled for use just with a simple tap of a button, then even more reason to standardise on the hardware build spec and use soft-switches to control what the actual spec is at any given instant within the lifespan of that car.
I once owned a Granada Mk 2 2.3L. No rev counter, just a clock. Picked up a GL instrument cluster in a scrappy, and thought it would plug straight in. Found that the wire to the multiplug for the cluster lacked the ignition signal. The L model had a different loom to the GL!
"Found that the wire to the multiplug for the cluster lacked the ignition signal. The L model had a different loom to the GL!"
That can happen. Weber University acquired a Chevy Bolt without the DC fast charging option and hoped to source the components only to find out that there are a bunch of differences between the two options. I haven't checked their YouTube channel in ages so I'm not sure if they ever sorted that out or just picked up one with the fast charging. The cars are part of their automotive education program so they put them together and take them apart a bunch more than drive them.
no matter how much we fume. Remember that 'cloud' thing we mocked? This shitty idea of 'facebook'? Howe we laughed that people could never, ever, EVER be so stupid as to sell their privacy for FREE? Be paraded naked and fingerprinted when taking a long-distance flight? Voice-recognized and tracked in their own homes, of their own will? All those absurd ideas, laughable, really!
No, what you have bought is a licence to use the car for a limited period, subject to the manufacturer’s terms and conditions which can be changed at any time without prior notice and which you agreed to when you opened the car door.
*Your* car? What a quaint idea. Like trafficators, floor-mounted headlight switches or hand-cranked engine starting.
Icon: have a beer. At least we’re all used to only renting that.
So I get a car with a bunch of features built in that I don't want - but that's a waste of resources to build and install and it's extra weight the car is dragging around?
I can see an augment for subscription for updating the software for functional improvements - but not for fixes and certainly not for enabling hardware.
"So I get a car with a bunch of features built in that I don't want - but that's a waste of resources to build and install and it's extra weight the car is dragging around?"
Chances are you're already driving a car like that, only without the ability to then easily enable the extra features if you later think they might actually be of use to you...
My car has the loom for cruise, the software for cruise, and being DBW no extra bits required.
To enable it required the puchase of two switches.
The loom as other people would say, no problem cheaper to have fitted.
At least it was fit switches get cruise.
It does have active suspension, now the bits for that are different, ECU, pump and pipes not fitted to other models, but I suspect the loom is.
"My car has the loom for cruise, the software for cruise, and being DBW no extra bits required.
To enable it required the puchase of two switches."
I needed to replace a switch on my steering wheel and found a set that included the stereo controls I lacked, but no joy. Only the CC switches worked as they did before.
Not necessarily. It depends. I’m not an expert on seat heaters, but it’s entirely possible that engineering the seat to have access to allow selecting seat heater or not late in production, increases the weight more than just hardwiring it. Or not. Depends what the component manufacturer does.
One thing I *do* know: the total wiring harness on a modern car typically weighs an astonishing 100-150kg. It’s one of the heaviest items in the car. There are literally hundreds of sensors and motors to wire up. And they certainly aren’t putting in the wires individually depending on which options are fitted. They make a completely standard harness as a component, and install that.
I think you need detailed engineering data to say that the one-size-fits-all design is heavier than the custom-installed design. Only the manufacturer has that.
"I think you need detailed engineering data to say that the one-size-fits-all design is heavier than the custom-installed design. Only the manufacturer has that."
Nah. A true custom harness is always lighter. Sometimes by well over 50%, even though it runs pretty much the same components (and sometimes more). Ask any hotrodder. Standard factory harnesses are notoriously far too heavy for the job.
And yes, they almost all contain many wires that don't do anything.
Minor point of order: after years of referring to the cars as Beemers, I learned quite recently that among aficionados of the brand, that nickname is reserved for BMW bikes. The cars are, apparently, “bimmers”.
Not sure if I personally care enough to respect the distinction, but there you are.
After Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, Netflix, Disney, Amazon, Spotify, Ring, here comes the next subscription service for the many.
I applaud Apple for so far having kept Logic and Final Cut one-time payments.
BTW, what happens when a car company detects meddling? Could they disable all non-safety relevant subscriptions that where added after purchase?
Brave New World. Then again, with everything increasingly deemed luxury by inflation and 'save the planet' (looking at you, artificially created food sparsity, energy sparsity and can-I-even-afford-a-child crises), this all feels unimportant and mostly aimed at the new mandarin classes - to which of course, that's the trick, we almost could belong, forever.
I can see it coming: that 2022 sports car you bought that did 0-60mph in 5 seconds....next year it'll takes 6.7 seconds and the following year 7.8 seconds. Seems to occasionally not start first time, either.
There'll be nothing mechanical wrong with it. It'll just be the manufactures slowing down the hardware. At the same time, the service department will be informed you're becoming a prime target to be leased their latest model.
You can argue with me - but I'm sure I recall another consumer product that, after purchase, was deliberately slowed down by the manufacturer.
£80 a year to update the SatNav?
For 50% more you can buy an entry-level TomTom that comes with FREE map updates for LIFE. If TomTom can absorb the cost of that in a £120 device I'm damn sure BMW could in a car costing several hundred times as much ... if they wanted to.
One advantage of the TomTom is that you can take in on holiday and use it in the hire car.
"My phone does that for free. What's the point of paying for SatNav, third-party or otherwise?"
I like having a 7" screen on the SatNav but don't want a phone that large. I also don't want to leave cell data on or send information to heaven knows who about my travel. I can dump the history in my SatNav when I want and it doesn't blank out when those nice people call to let me know my car warranty is about to expire.
"For 50% more you can buy an entry-level TomTom that comes with FREE map updates for LIFE."
Check their definition of "life". For Magellan it's 3 years or a bit more if they feel like it. I find second hand Garmin units with lifetime maps and so far they always take updates.
Some time ago, could be years back, when there was quite a large debate, amongst El Reg commentards, about 365 and the cloud and “anything as a service”.
Many of the commentards evoked the motor industry as “the good guys” but where this could happen next.
They thought they were joking.
Thanks for the consumer advice. Make mine a Volvo. Although when Volvo start fitting hardware to the car and charging customers to use it* then make mine an old Volvo, built before these consumer unfriendly practices became commonplace.
* I’ll exempt those functions for which payment for a third party license is necessary - like Apple CarPlay for example - since that is outside the manufacturers hands and, if you have an Android phone, why should it be mandatory to pay for that license? Such caveats clearly don’t apply to the heated seats however.
Upvoted.
However, my own beloved Volvo is currently en panne, having suddenly and mysteriously and without any warning whatsoever lost all its oil at 60mph on the highway. If the garage ever get back to me with a diagnosis - or post-mortem, I suspect - I will be facing such a large bill that I could cosplay as a pelican :(
Yeah - that happened to me when an incorrectly fitted sump drain plug fell out. My beloved didn’t notice the increasingly urgent warning lights from the car telling her to stop right away - and merrily motored all the way home (a distance of 70 miles)
Astonishingly, the cost was a new drain plug and a refill of all. 100k miles later it’s still running sweetly.
I can only assume that because the car was moving when the disaster occurred all the oil was circulating up in the engine so enough was available to keep it running.
"I can only assume that because the car was moving when the disaster occurred all the oil was circulating up in the engine so enough was available to keep it running."
That's not how it works. The oil pump pulls from the sump to circulate through the engine. The oil then drains back into the sump (gravity), to be picked up by the pump again. Said pump supplies pressurized oil to the bearings continuously ... unless the oil has all drained out.
Long story short: You got very, very lucky. Don't do it again.
This approach makes sense.
Test equipment (and I am not talking about cheap multimeters) can be very expensive. I specified a new oscilloscope about 10 years ago capable of measuring signals up to 12 GHz and the price (with $KeyAccount discount) was about £120K - the probes alone were over £20K.
Not everyone needs all the features that the hardware supports so some of the more esoteric features are not enabled - you need to buy a licence (or in some cases a small card that fits in a slot) to get those features.
For older kit, there would be empty slots within the chassis that you could populate to get added features.
The hardware in many high end test instruments is capable of a great deal but if you don't need those features you don't pay for them although the option to enable them is usually available.
I can buy an oscilloscope good to 200MHz for less than £200 but if I need a certified device (full calibration records) as I do in a great deal of my work that just won't cut it.
Lab grade precision multimeters can set you back over £10K.
Test equipment (particularly high end oscilloscopes) are hardly mass produced items so it makes sense for the manufacturers to have a couple of base designs where features are turned on and off with a licence key.
For this market, such a scheme makes sense. Cars not so much.
This is true across the board for oscilloscopes these days. I have a cheap(ish) Rigol and a mid-range Rohde & Schwarz - both of these left the factory "fully loaded" but have specific functions - and bandwidth - governed by software license. Tektronix and Keysight scopes are the same, I believe.
If there are seat elements and a wiring loom I would insist in the seats working.
I have already bought the bits so not paying more to use it.
I have added features before.
With DBW cars cruise is often an extra which can be added for the price of the switches. Done it with last two cars, one was switch and a friend set a flag in the ECU, the latest was cut hole in steering wheel for a switch and put other switch into the blanks hole.
Fair enough I had to buy switches.
But if it is hardware already fitted but disabled they can fuck right off, even on SH market, unless we can set it with an external device.
And what of the 3rd owner, or the car sold by a non-BMW-franchise? Being the target and a (diminishing) brand fan it's been harder and harder to support some of the idiotic decisions as the marketing and finance functions began to run roughshod over the engineers of old. Coming out after the E39 5-Series (to 2002) or E46 3-Series (to ~2006) has seen a decline in engineer-based decisions and an uptick in choices to make more money with no care on the end-result.
It started when the service life intervals were pushed out (without changing the components or fluids) which allowed them to look better in fleet pricing and simultaneously meant the cars were less likely to be as viable in old age, pushing consumers to the new cars. Then there was the reduction in quality of components, plastics getting cheaper and more questionable decisions being made such as the inclusion of plastic-impellor water pumps, low quality timing chain guides and that ghastly N57 4-cyl engine. The company that once screamed adverts exclaiming why they "don't make front wheel drives" changed their new performance small car to FWD and tried to pretend they'd never said anything.
For me, I've had two F11 (2009-2017) 5-Series. The first was a low spec purchased used from a dealer, who helped me navigate registration of the ConnectedDrive functions that allowed me to use the concierge, track the location, lock/unlock via app and enable the auxiliary heating (defrost without starting the car, by app or on timer). The latter being a godsend in allowing the car to be scheduled to be defrosted as you leave on a winter morning. The second was a high-spec, 1yr newer, purchased privately for which no amount of calls, emails or wrangling would get these functions enabled, making it clear I was unable to do so despite the car having been capable and it being connected to my account.
I'm reminded of the Playstation store and PS3. Sony have shut down the servers/services and as such the functions once possible are now no longer possible. Progress. Just don't look at the potential e-waste, continuous push back towards the dealership and devaluation of used cars sold by anyone but them, or over three years or so old.
I've had nothing but BMWs for 14yrs, 6 of them. I brought my daughter home from the hospital in one, took my wife on our first date and honeymoon in one and turned down the dieselgate lawsuit as I felt it unethical as I bought another after I knew. I was at the pre-press launch of the new M2 and the first time I ever went on a track, doing 160mph and learning to drift was in one.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another new one.
In 2008, Dave (the TV channel) commissioned research to find the top 10 oldest jokes in humanity, tracing back to 1900BC. The article with Reuters is here - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-joke-odd-idUSKUA14785120080801
You may want to contact them as I think this may be information they hadn't considered as-yet.
Many years ago I bought a Suzuki bike that, according to the spec, didn't have a brake light switch for the front brake, only the rear, you had to buy a higher model for that. Fair enough, except that the switch was present, the wiring was present, they just hadn't plugged the latter into the former! A five minute "improvement" at zero cost.
The slippery slope to renting everything - all soon to be controlled by Android - so it can't go wrong and it will last forever. Oh and it will spy on everything you say or do for the the thought police so you can't say anything non PC. It will also switch off completely if you are anywhere near any important politician or oligarch who wants the road to himself
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This can GTF!. BMW (quite why anyone in a RHD counntry would is beyond me. Built for LHD with pedals and steering wheel badly ofset in RHD cars) or any other manufacturer can do one. If I buy a car ( however I do it financed or not) it is mine.I buy it, I own it end of story. If they can switch it on, they can switch it on.
So modern cars can/currently do
Report current location back to manufacturer
Report speed back to manufacturer
Report all current interactions back to manufacturer
Report when doors open & close
Report location to other cars
Allow user to link to manufactuer to send a signal to car to lock/unlock
Installed with Google Assistant/Amazon Alexa
Have service appointments booked automatically because it detects a "fault"
Nag users to create profiles for using the cars so that manufacturers can collect "personaliised" profiles on their customers. Saves a fortune compared to paying wages for testers.
Amongst many other things and now.....
Enable and disable hardware/features remotely & use a "subscription" model to access this
No, just no. How many of you who have bought a new car in the lalst 4/5 years have been asked for your consent to any of this data transfer? Contravenes GDPR.
Thats the other reason they have been pushing all this "connected" car nonsence. Get people to have it, relent to it and accept it so they can get the data and then start using it to leverage "extra value" from their customers.
Doesn't help that all cars in the EU (and UK is taking ot on too) must have an embbedded SIM so the car cannot be disconnected physically from the mothership. Currently have on order w car from another manufacturer for last 10 months that a condition of the sale is all telemetry is disabled. I have a funny feeling it will be rejected when it arrives as I believe dealership have promised something that cannot be done.
Why can I not buy a car that is new, that is disconnected, can have a touchscreen but has physical buttons so I know I can switch stuff on/off with out looking, no OTA so that features don't/can't be changed from what I bought, stuff can't be added to it, no data taken off and everything fitted to a car works without have to pay extra for it until the manufacturer does a UbiSoft and disables the servers rendering it unusable.
Unless there is a backlash and it huts them in the pocket then they will all push on. I doubt it though as none of the rest of things the car manufacturers have done has upset the masses
BMW restrooms provide employees toilet services only by subscription:
- Lid Unlocking
- Retraction of Seat's Tire Spikes
- Heated Seat
- Flush. One per visit or three (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
- Heated Bidet-Hose Spray. Tap or Evian (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
- Fart Fan. Low or High (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
- Toilet Paper by the Square. Five per visit or fifty (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
- Door Closure. Lock (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
- Seat-Ejection Timeout. Two minutes or ten (via the "Premium Unlimited Plan")
Subscriptions are OPTIONAL. Employees retain the right to "hold it in."
"Why would you pay $25 a month to make your backside sweaty?"
I wouldn't. Fortunately heated seats have temperature controls, so me arse just stays warm, no sweating involved. Handy things to have when plowing snow at oh-dark-thirty in January, sitting on a cabless Farmall M at 6500 feet in Nevada. Amazing how much body heat you can lose sitting on an unheated, uninsulated tractor seat. The new alternator supplying the necessary juice was well worth the price of admission.
Probably also kinda handy for folks who live in climes where it's 40 below [0] many mornings in the winter, and rarely rises above freezing all day for months on end.
[0] C or F, pick one, I don't care, I can work with either.
I have seen one situation where this makes sense: IBM selling servers with say 2, 4, 6, or 8 cores; you pay for what you need today, and if your business grows and you’d need an upgrade, you just pay for activating two more cores.
The alternative for the customer would be to find someone willing to buy a used 2 core server, buying a new 4 core server, and transferring everything over - substantially more expensive. So the guys insisting “I was given a server with 8 servers, I can activate the remaining six without paying” can be told “if you insist, then we stop selling that way, and everyone loses”.
Now let’s say BMW charged £500 for heated seats. And it costs £100 to put in a deactivated heated seat. (You think they are ripping you off? Tough to be you then). That means I can turn the heated seats on in my new BMW for £500, same cost as before. BMW saves money by needing to build only one model. And without the heating built in, changing your mind would cost significantly more or be impossible.
So overall this could be beneficial for the customer. Especially if you didn’t want the heating, and 3 years later you want to sell your used car to someone who insists on heated seats. No problem.
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