back to article Behold this drone-dropping rifle with two-mile range

What's said to be a Ukrainian-made long-range anti-drone rifle is one of the latest weapons to emerge from Russia's ongoing invasion of its neighbor. The Antidron KVS G-6 is manufactured by Kvertus Technology, in the western Ukraine region of Ivano-Frankivsk, whose capital of the same name has twice been subjected to Russian …

  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    "lean" innovation

    The Ukrainian engineers are demonstrating exactly what this term is supposed to mean. In the field you don't want politicians and generals impossible wishlist but something that works as simply as possible and is as cheap to make as possible.

    Ukraine still needs lots of financial and military (anti-aircraft defences would be good) aid but have from the start demonstrated that they have remembered the lessons of WWII that produced the AK47.

    1. badflorist

      Re: "lean" innovation

      I now "support"* Russia due to the overwhelming abundance of people who take no action to help the Ukraine but go on and on and on and on as if they do. That said, I do support Ukrainians who further technology to defend themselves and I hope they can keep developing the tools to continue defending themselves without the reliance of my country (USA) or any other country. To me it's a true sign of being worthy of independence.

      * as much as most realistically support the Ukraine.

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: "lean" innovation

        What exactly are you complaining about, people who say "I support Ukraine" but aren't going there to fight themselves or finding a way to bring Ukrainian refugees into their home?

        Or are you just a pro-Russian troll looking to claim like you see both sides, when really you want Putin to get one last win before he hopefully dies in terrible pain from his rumored blood cancer.

      2. cyberdemon Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: "lean" innovation

        Go back to flower arranging, you're clearly even worse at politics.

      3. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: "lean" innovation

        I wouldn't otherwise make a point of stating this, but I sent Ukraine a sizable donation to assist with aiding their populace (which was, incidentally, matched 100% by my company).

        Since you're pissing on other people, have you done anything to help?

        And if you want to know how: https://supportukrainenow.org/

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "lean" innovation

          re. top v. bottom funding, I have read a good few comments from Ukrainian sources that it's best to donate more or less 'directly', i.e. once you've verified that the recipients are actually going to use the funds personally (not on booze, hopefully) - or personally deliver the goodies to those who need it. All this on account of - apparently huge - issues in Ukraine with funds and equipment that doesn't make it to the front lines (or any other intended destination point). Various reasons, some of it due to logistics, but potentially large but impossible to identify loss is due to fraud / crime - not necessarily by the the first link (scams) but further down the chain. The bigger the org, the less organized, you'd think, but at the same time, the bigger the org, the longer the chain, the less of original money makes it to the end point.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "lean" innovation

        your comment is so bizarre that I can't decide whether to up or downvote you. Damn you for this gut-wrenching experience! :)

    2. macjules

      Re: "lean" innovation

      “The lessons of WWII that produced the AK47, which was copied from the German Sturmgewehr 43 and 44.”

      FTFY :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "lean" innovation

        first it was spread on the internets cause that banana-mag, and that stock, can't you see this UNCANNY resemblance, etc?! Then it was debunked by internets weapons experts. Then, recently, I saw it mentioned as a fact by an army (though not small arms) expert from Ukraine. I will settle for the draw, i.e. that because everybody copies from everybody, they _may_ have copied some ideas and technical solutions, but it's not a copy in the sense of a Chinese (licenced or otherwise) ak copies that show up in all parts of the world. Including, at one point... buried in Ukraine. Which might have been supplied by the US, originally intended for the Afghan gov army. Anyway.

      2. Potemkine! Silver badge
      3. This post has been deleted by its author

      4. Dog11

        Re: "lean" innovation

        Well, to be honest, the Sturmgewehr pretty much invented the entire category of "assault rifle" (intermediate cartridge, capable of full auto), so pretty much all countries based new weapons on it. Kalashnikov was merely the first to do so.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: "lean" innovation

      "Ukraine still needs lots of financial and military (anti-aircraft defences would be good) aid but have from the start demonstrated that they have remembered the lessons of WWII that produced the AK47."

      Not forgetting the previous invasion of Crimea and the years fighting the Russian backed and supplied separatists. They have a lot of recent experience fighting against Russian equipment and tactics.

  2. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Tubes

    I can't help but wonder if old school tech could make these for $500. Various kinds of vacuum tubes are simpler and more compact for high power output in the GHz range than semiconductors. They're essentially electron beam whistles. Magnetrons, klystrons, certain forms of Marx Generators, etc.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Tubes

      Depends on what methods you intend to use for jamming, louder isn't always better the cat and mouse game that jamming represents. That said the use of analog booster circuits is reasonable when they are pushing that kind of range, even if they have a digital controller generating the source signal. Probably a big loop Yagi under the hood, wonder what the side lobes look like on a radio plot.

      But for as long as it works, they may as well make the best of it.

    2. herman Silver badge

      Re: Tubes

      Yes, but jamming your own equipment also, may be a problem.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Tubes

          I wouldn't be surprised if there's beamforming in there, which would prevent other equipment being affected...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Tubes

          I'm still somewhat skeptical about targeting, especially given how fluid the situation is, and as Russians are using 'the same' consumer drones. I mean, you see a drone, what do you do?

          - make sure it's not yours and then

          - contact all units in your area (a large one, units move forward, back, scouts, etc), to make sure it's not their drone.

          - see the drone disappear over trees, the end

          - blow it out of the sky, because if you don't...

          Yes, friendly fire is not a new concept, but I wonder, what practical measures can be taken to minimize the risk. I saw Ukrainians building their own copters, also using different frequencies, software, etc, but all this is not on an industrial scale, perhaps dozens of home-made are produced, when they need thousands. Perhaps it's just the usual case of hardware attriction. I can envisage, when the war is over, some drone-hunting field trips taking place and 'like brand new, three careful owners' on ebay ;)

    3. Dagg

      Re: Tubes

      Only the Magnetron has a chance, klystrons are minimum output and only used for local oscillators.

      And a marx generator which is just a voltage multiplier would be extremely unsafe to use.

      1. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

        Re: Tubes

        There's a form of Marx Generator with cascading triggering to generate a tuned pulse. I don't know if you could make a little one in a tube full of dry air to jam microwaves. Articles on them are about large scale SciFi types of experiments. (RF and tubes are not my strong points.)

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The drone lands where it is jammed, or can be carried away by the wind because it's uncontrollable,"

    Unless it costs more that $50 from a toy store, and has the ability to autonomously navigate, and fall back to a IMU guidance when GPS is lost...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      fair, but

      Like the other nation state drone EW attacks that have been successful, if you dither the signals instead of squashing them the drone has a hard choice. Trusting the less reliable inertial data, or a potentially spoofed control/glonass/gps signals. The onboard computers of much more expensive drones have fallen to such attacks. Cough SENTINEL! cough.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I can't be alone in thinking this but does anyone else think this is a proxy war to test out new hardware. We have this drone-dropping rifle. We have had super tanks and missile defence systems. Also, western countries are climbing over themselves to supply weaponry. Realistically when there is a war if you supply weapons for one side you are with that side and fair game for being attacked.

    1. veti Silver badge

      "Fair game" is subjective and legally meaningless. Putin has made some aggressive noises about being at war with NATO, but he's also very conspicuously refrained from launching attacks on NATO countries.

      And seeing how his mighty army has already been humiliated once, I think it's a good bet that he's just plain scared.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "I think it's a good bet that he's just plain scared"

        And even if he isn't his military now has a fair idea of their limitations.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Where has he been humiliated? Russia said ir was taking regions in the east and south and it still is. You don't take what our media tells us as truth without questioning it do you? If Russia wanted to annihilate Ukraine it would have done as I'm sure it has enough missiles to flatten it. Not a fan of Russia in the slightest but if you think one of the 3 super powers in this world is going to lose a war that isn't against the other 2 then you're crazy. Technically you could count 4 if you included Europe as they have plenty of nukes and missiles between them but I just don't think the non-NATO countries could work together easily.

        1. Mooseman Silver badge

          "Where has he been humiliated? Russia said ir was taking regions in the east and south and it still is. You don't take what our media tells us as truth without questioning it do you? "

          Erm, how did that attack on Kyiv go? Yes, they have eventually taken a bit of territory adjoining areas they already controlled, sorry, were invited into by "separatists", but even that has taken 3 months plus rather than a few days. What we have seen is that the bulk of Russia's vaunted tank force is old and vulnerable. Even their new tanks have the same limitations (and the T14 Armata doesn't exist except as an unreliable prototype - and guess what they cant get the western-made electronics for it now)

          Russia has failed to achieve air dominance.

          Russia has failed to seize more than a fraction of Ukrainian territory

          Russian tanks and BMPs have run out of fuel and been towed away by locals.

          Russia has resorted to their standard practice of indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets (cf Chechenya and Syria)

          Not humiliated?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      this is a proxy war to test hardware (and for other reasons), but not in the sense of conspiration theory about the evil arms conglomerates controlling western governments, who spread war-pathogens through Putin's ventilation system, etc.

      Sadly, this is also the nail in the coffin for any drone-flying enthusiasts around the world, as the war will bring the price of the anti-drone guns to the point that you won't be sure whether your drone is safe anytime, anywhere. Until the State steps in (ffoward a few years) and such guns will have become 'licenced' too. But still, how can you prove that whoever you don't 'fired' such a gun rightfully. Btw, I haven't flown a drone, can't and won't afford one, the whine would annoy me greatly, never mind a drone hovering behind the window, recording my inspection of linux distros, but... I imagine they're great fun to fly.

      1. TangoDelta72

        I see your proxy war and raise you some kinky sex. Enjoy!

    3. Binraider Silver badge

      What do you think happened in the Spanish Civil War. Both the Fascist and Soviet alliances sent equipment, men and tested tactics in the field.

      People say how far war advanced in 1939-45; but 1936-37 arguably it was even more rapid.

      Some countries learned from it. We need to be paying attention at the very least.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You're aware the UN charter *requires* countries to supply aid to countries which are attacked, right..?

    5. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

      It's definitely a study topic for China since they're doing "reunification" too.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    what I don't understand

    is how this gun can distinguish between 'their' drones and 'ours', gvien the range and drone proliferation there. Particularly as most of the drones are 'ours'. We don't want a scatter-gun approach, do we.

  6. R.O.

    The arms race is on...

    Seems drones and missile/rockets are the future of war. But, as this article suggests, so the future will also include drone/missile counter measures. This one is kind of innovative. Sounds like it will work.

  7. TDog

    Target spotting and authentication

    One of the biggest issues will be seeing and identifying the target. Spotting a drone, even with the annoying whine at ranges in excess of a couple of hundred meters on a noisy battlefield will be problematical. A narrow beam would prevent shotgun like firing whilst possibly reducing power consumption, but make the probability of causing effective interference significantly lower. And what if it is your drone, doing a good thing?

    GPS spoofing is doable but much more difficult from below (think shielded antennae) and would presumably significantly increase the cost. Jamming would be a lot cheaper, but we still come back to the cost of stopping versus the cost of the target equation.

    Finally I wouldn't like to have a bloody great emr noise emitter on a battlefield. Home on jam may be feasible for suicide drones, or just a few rounds of 122 / 152mm HE.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Target spotting and authentication

      It's done in combination: high-level drones and satellites are providing reconnaissance where the Russians can't exert air superiority. Once you have a good idea of where something is, it is fairly easy to target.

      Russia initially expected to achieve air superiority easily and discounted the threat of Ukrainian drones. Then the Russian air force went missing and the Ukrainians were able to destroy tanks at will. In the Donbas Russia has coordinated defences a little better and the range is greater, which is why Ukraine wants to be able to take out Russian reconnaissance drones so that it can target the enormous artilley pieces.

    2. Ordinary Donkey

      Re: Target spotting and authentication

      My feeling would be that you could harden a drone against this weapon simply by shutting down receivers. It will be much less effective when flying in that mode, but given that you have the advantage of knowing when you're about to fire, it could recover much quicker than a third party drone that didn't get the warning.

  8. Luiz Abdala
    Terminator

    Ace Combat has you covered.

    The drones in that dogfight game have enough AI on board to know exactly where they must go, how to behave under the most basic scenarios, and return to base if they lose communication.

    The problem begins when a cientist tries to shove down their circuits the fighting style of the best pilots available and get them armed with missiles.

    However, the most basic thing: "return to base if you lose comms" could be implemented today in real life, no matter how much jamming you throw at them.

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