back to article Vital UK customs system outage contributes to travel chaos at its borders

A system vital to the flow of goods across the UK's border has suffered a devastating outage following a rush to implement it in time for the Brexit deadline. Last night, the UK's tax collector's technical teams were struggling to resolve an outage affecting the goods vehicle movement service (GVMS), introduced to help managed …

  1. Spaceman9

    If only there was some way we could be part of, I don't know, and I'm just thinking out of the box here. A customs union of some kind?

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @Spaceman9

      "A customs union of some kind?"

      Without surrendering the country to a political union.

      1. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

        Re: @Spaceman9

        Without surrendering the country to a political union.

        ...said the Scottish

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @Spaceman9

          @Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

          "...said the Scottish"

          Nope. They sold Scotland willingly. Even vote to remain after being promised candy and rainbows if they left.

          1. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

            Re: @Spaceman9

            Even vote to remain leave after being promised candy and rainbows if they left.

            ...said the brexiteers

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @Spaceman9

              @Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

              "...said the brexiteers"

              You do realise project fear turned into a disappointing damp squib for the EU and fanatical remainers?

              1. John Robson Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                "You do realise project fear turned into a disappointing damp squib for the EU and fanatical remainers?"

                Project reality (to give it's proper name) has been proved rather accurate.

                Of course we've only seen a 15% drop in trade compared with other similar economies (i.e. excluding the inevitable effects of a pandemic, and other global pressures) - but we haven't yet implemented brexit in full - and we never will - every time we want to change any standards it will need a new round of negotiations...

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @John Robson

                  "Project reality (to give it's proper name) has been proved rather accurate."

                  Yes but thats not what I said, I mentioned project fear. That effort to claim we are all doomed because of brexit, which was both ridiculous and false.

                  1. John Robson Silver badge

                    Re: @Spaceman9

                    Rather depends on your memory...

                    "We're all doomed" wasn't what was predicted. A drop in trade, a reduction in choice on the shelves, an increase in corruption, all of those were predicted - and have come to pass.

                    There hasn't been any benefit to the country from Brexit - it's not just that I don't think the benefits outweigh the losses.. I am yet to hear anyone claim an actual benefit that stands up to even mild scrutiny.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @Spaceman9

                      @John Robson

                      ""We're all doomed" wasn't what was predicted."

                      That sounds like a very revised history. We were predicted a recession as soon as the result was leave, didnt happen. We were told it was because art50 wasnt implemented, when it was still no recession. We were told the banks were leaving, they didnt. Amusingly you attribute a drop in trade, reduction of choice on the shelves and 'corruption' to brexit instead of the global pandemic affecting the globe.

                      "There hasn't been any benefit to the country from Brexit - it's not just that I don't think the benefits outweigh the losses"

                      Then the delusion is strong. To think the benefits dont outweigh the losses is an opinion which we would disagree but could be rooted in the same facts, but to claim no benefits at all to the country is nothing but false. The UK procurement of vaccine was down to brexit. Be grateful contracts were signed under UK law not European.

                      1. Tilda Rice

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        If you expect to have reasoned debate with remoaners and their selective memories Codejunky - don't bother, they've proven they can't.

                        You are correct, the sky didn't fall down as predicted. Project fear most certainly didn't come to pass. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just being a juvenile.

                        Laughable about goods on shelves, when UK imports were at an all time high (around 65bn) Q1 2022.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge
                          Pint

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          @Tilda Rice

                          "If you expect to have reasoned debate with remoaners and their selective memories Codejunky - don't bother, they've proven they can't."

                          On the odd occasion one will surprise me. But for the most part its correcting the same false claims as usual, just repetition they cannot argue against (factually).

                          The good news is the number of remain commenters fall off as reality eats away their claims leaving the uninformed and fanatical to post the same rubbish. I have nothing against those who dont have the information but the fanatics should be challenged on their lies or unsuspecting readers may fall for it.

                        2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          Laughable about goods on shelves, when UK imports were at an all time high (around 65bn) Q1 2022.

                          You know what Britain's single biggest import is? Gold. You know what Britain's single biggest export is? Gold.

                          You know how much of that gold is ever physically in Britain?

                      2. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        enjoy your crazy upsidedown world....

                        all for racist nutters wanting to lock themselves in a fucking corner.

                        mad the fucking lot of you.

                      3. batfink Silver badge

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        Back to the false claim that the vaccine rollout was down to Brexit I see. You keep coming back to this despite the fact that it was done while we were still in the EU and done under existing EU rules.

                        Nothing to do with Brexit. Still, I don't suppose that will stop you trying to assert it again every time.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          @batfink

                          "Back to the false claim that the vaccine rollout was down to Brexit I see."

                          Reading your comment I seemed to remember you running away from this discussion in the past. I remember you making the same statement last time but when confronted with fact you mysteriously vanished 2 months ago!

                          So if you really believe its a false claim that brexit helped the UK roll out vaccine quicker then I refer you to our last conversation-

                          https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/01/28/horizons_response/#c_4405080

                          So would you care to try and explain or are you gonna run away again now you made your amusing but false comment?

                          1. the small snake
                            Alien

                            Re: @Spaceman9

                            Ah yes I see. The famous codejunky argument again: The UK vaccine rollout went so well (by the way, it did not go that well, but never mind) because even though it could have done just the same thing if it was in the EU as it did mostly (2020) under EU rules anyway it would not have because the EU would have bullied the poor tiny UK politicians.

                            So we see that the UK had to leave the EU because its leaders had brains and wills which were too weak to stand up to the mighty EU brains and wills. The UK left because it is made of weak stupids. Not like the strong virile frenchys and germanoids and us other EUers. Poor weak stupid UK.

                            Sadly now that UK which you say is so weak and so stupid has to negotiate trade deals etc without the support of the strong virile EU brains. How does that work out for you? Not too well it looks like from here.

                            Probably as well they left: we don't need to deal with weak stupids.

                            1. codejunky Silver badge

                              Re: @Spaceman9

                              @the small snake

                              "The famous codejunky argument again:"

                              That has still stumped remainers.

                              "The UK vaccine rollout went so well (by the way, it did not go that well, but never mind)"

                              Did not go so well??? What propaganda are you reading?

                              "because even though it could have done just the same thing if it was in the EU"

                              A technicality which does not stand up to fact and requires a belief in UK supremacy and a more benevolent EU than was.

                              "Not like the strong virile frenchys and germanoids and us other EUers."

                              Ahhh, when you say us other EUers please do tell which member country. Just in case I cross another who is as badly misinformed as you.

                              "How does that work out for you? Not too well it looks like from here."

                              I love it!!! Go on what delusional insanity are you being fed? You seem to have some fair grasp of English so I suggest you go look beyond your countries borders and see how it compares to the nonsense you have been told. Even inside the EU by the very fanatics at the heart of the EU was clear derision of their vaccine procurement and how embarrassing it was to watch the UK doing so much better.

                              Or your a troll account trying to make remainers look particularly stupid.

                            2. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: @Spaceman9

                              "The famous codejunky argument again"

                              They are clearly a consummate battologist.

                        2. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          At the time, the remain supporters were very vocal in claiming that the UK's pursuit of its own vaccine procurement policy was due to BREXIT-driven ideology.

                          While I have better things to do than find reams of articles from two years ago, it took about 30 seconds to find this one as an example:

                          https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/britain-eu-vaccine-scheme-coronavirus-access-520265?msclkid=933a5cd6b9a711ecb680f58c7c8bffb3.

                          (Note the quote from Ed Davey in particular)

                          The idea that the UK, if it had voted to remain, would have then broken ranks from the EU's vaccine procurement scheme is rubbish.

                          The fact that the people that are claiming we would have (and therefore that we would have still achieved the same speed of vaccine roll-out) are the same people shouting loudest against any UK divergence from any aspect of EU rules, regulations and standards shows the hypocrisy/dishonesty of such people. Had we remained in the EU, the people claiming we could have followed our own policy would have shrieked and squealed at any suggestion that we might not remain in lock-step with the EU.

                          There are certainly negatives from BREXIT, but the vaccine roll out was a clear BREXIT benefit. Claiming otherwise just makes you look like an unreasoning fanatic.

                          1. Dacarlo
                            FAIL

                            Re: @Spaceman9

                            "...the vaccine roll out was a clear BREXIT benefit. Claiming otherwise just makes you look like an unreasoning fanatic."

                            Nil point.

                            https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

                            and

                            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55163730

                            and

                            https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

                            My personal brexit calculator is -£100 I paid on an import due to customs theft. How much benefit have you measurably accrued?

                      4. Ian Johnston Silver badge

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        The UK procurement of vaccine was down to brexit.

                        Nope. Britain was invited to join the EU procurement round, which wasn't even mandatory for EU countries. In the case of vaccines Boris & Co certainly made the right call, but they could have made precisely the same call without Brexit.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          Nope. Britain was invited to join the EU procurement round, which wasn't even mandatory for EU countries. In the case of vaccines Boris & Co certainly made the right call, but they could have made precisely the same call without Brexit

                          Remind me, how many EU nations declined to participate in the EU vaccine procurement programme.

                          Perhaps it’s fairer to list those nations who wanted to not participate but where cudgelled into participating.

              2. GruntyMcPugh

                Re: @Spaceman9

                'Project fear', right, we now have the highest tax burden since repairing the country after a mechanised army tried to destroy us. But hey, name us a Brexit bonus! What's got better? Anything? Blue Passports?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @GruntyMcPugh

                  "'Project fear', right, we now have the highest tax burden since repairing the country after a mechanised army tried to destroy us."

                  Heads up just in case you slept through it but there was a huge grinding of economies around the world including the UK as a pandemic swept over the globe. To tide people over (and I consider this covidpanic) money was spaffed on people as businesses were legally blocked from doing business. All of this after a spaffing of money after the great recession (2008). All this printed money about to smack us with high inflation and a war between Russia and Ukraine is pushing up prices in food and oil etc.

                  However good morning.

                  "But hey, name us a Brexit bonus!"

                  A far better covid vaccination strategy than had we remained. You know when the EU fanatics were also pointing out the UK did better.

                  1. monty75

                    Re: @Spaceman9

                    UK economy took a bigger hit and has been slower to recover than any other comparable country (despite what Bozo The Clown likes to repeat)

                    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/23/uk-living-standards-fall-sunak

                    The UK vaccination strategy had nothing to do with Brexit and in fact we're now behind the rest of the EU

                    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/covid-vaccine-decisions-brexit

                    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @Spaceman9

                      @monty75

                      "UK economy took a bigger hit and has been slower to recover than any other comparable country"

                      Your source doesnt seem to say that.

                      "The UK vaccination strategy had nothing to do with Brexit and in fact we're now behind the rest of the EU"

                      Well thats exciting lies. The UK placed orders while the EU took longer to place them. The UK signed orders while the EU took its time doing so. The UK ordered lots of vaccine while the EU turned down vaccine because France wanted the (failed) Sanofi one to get the orders. The EU started catching up as member countries ordered vaccine separately even breaking their agreement with the EU not to negotiate with the same supplier.

                      The idea a member could authorise a vaccine without the EU was shot when a Dublin minister wanted people to go to NI and bring back vaccine to which the EU said no.

                      But go on...

                      *For bonus 'you are wrong' the EU actively threatened and attempted and achieved stealing vaccine due for export and actively raided manufacturing facilities and such looking for vaccine expected to be exported (and found EU supplies instead). If we were in the EU yet went our own way on vaccine the EU would have used EU authority to dictate our vaccine away from us.

                      1. John Robson Silver badge

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        Well - yes we started faster, but that was nothing to do with EU membership or otherwise.

                        We were still members of the EMA at the time - or did you forget that?

                        There is nothing that would have stopped us doing exactly what we did if we had remained in the EU - so it had nothing to do with being a brexit benefit.

                        And we've been low performing in terms of vaccination for a long while now.

                        And data shows that most developed economies are now at ~3% above pre pandemic trade, except for Britain (not the UK, since NI is doing far better - I wonder why) which is ~13% down.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          @John Robson

                          "Well - yes we started faster, but that was nothing to do with EU membership or otherwise."

                          Glad you acknowledge the fact but how do you get that second part so wrong?

                          "We were still members of the EMA at the time - or did you forget that?"

                          It was politically untenable for the UK gov to throw in with the EU procurement when we finally left the EU. It would be UK supremacist to believe the UK is better run than every member country in the EU and every one of them joined the joint procurement under pressure from the EU. Some countries such as Germany actually had a plan and binned it to join the EU joint procurement. So why do you believe the UK gov is so superior as to remain but reject the joint program? Do you truly believe the UK government is superior to all the other member governments?

                          But thats not the end! The EU screwed up so badly they were desperate. They stole vaccine destined for export and made direct threats against the UK to steal vaccine destined for here! Without the weight of EU law and our EU membership to abuse they tried to steal from the UK! So why do you believe they wouldnt have done so as members and of course would use the union as the excuse to redistribute?

                          "And we've been low performing in terms of vaccination for a long while now."

                          Lies. Amusing lies but go on. In fact we are above the EU and a little above Germany.

                          "And data shows that most developed economies are now at ~3% above pre pandemic trade, except for Britain"

                          This will be interesting to keep an eye on.

                          1. John Robson Silver badge

                            Re: @Spaceman9

                            Well, we're currently (Apr 6th 2022) behind: Denmark, Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, Sweden - just to list the EU countries we're lagging behind.

                            We're at 73.6% double jabbed, the EU as a whole is at 73.2%.

                            That's not a substantial difference - but the trend is that the EU has narrowed that gap - i.e. their performance has been better - for a while now.

                            The EU paid $2.15/dose initially, whilst the UK paid about $3/dose.

                            There is no basis at all to say that our vaccine programme is/was better than the EU... it's on a par, it started a few weeks earlier, and we paid significantly more as a result.

                            "And data shows that most developed economies are now at ~3% above pre pandemic trade, except for Britain"

                            This will be interesting to keep an eye on.

                            Yes it will, I wonder what you think will change this? We are still suffering significantly as a result of our world leading trade barriers, which we still haven't implemented. And yet our trade deficit continues to grow.

                            1. codejunky Silver badge

                              Re: @Spaceman9

                              @John Robson

                              "Well, we're currently (Apr 6th 2022) behind: Denmark, Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, Sweden - just to list the EU countries we're lagging behind."

                              Come back with the goal posts. We have already established the brexit benefit for vaccinations and the above doesnt change that. In fact the above means very little since at this point most people have either had the virus or the jab and so are immunised to the best of our ability. It is hard to complain at how vaccinated the UK is when its still above (just) Germany and clearly above the EU.

                              "We're at 73.6% double jabbed, the EU as a whole is at 73.2%."

                              While of those who have had any vaccination (single or double jab) is 75.22% EU and 77.60 UK as if that makes much of a difference now. The time it mattered being early on.

                              "but the trend is that the EU has narrowed that gap - i.e. their performance has been better - for a while now."

                              So they had to catch up? Why was that? *yeah I am hitting you with the point*. But on the note of their performance, it was shockingly bad. Not only did they not sign the orders but they didnt understand their contracts, raided manufacturers, stole vaccine for export and threatened to steal more. The EU did so badly that Germany broke its agreement about ordering vaccine while others imported from China and Russia because of the shortage. Do you consider that better performance than the UK who ordered, prepared and delivered efficiently and even to our foreign territories while the EU panicked?

                              "The EU paid $2.15/dose initially, whilst the UK paid about $3/dose."

                              I love this argument. So its ok for the EU to kill people (not order vaccine) because they got it slightly cheaper? Can you imagine that happening here? The vaccinations starting late, insufficient quantities and behind countries who were more competent but its ok we shaved a little off the price?

                              "There is no basis at all to say that our vaccine programme is/was better than the EU"

                              Reread the above and see if you can hold on to that delusion. Even in the EU they couldnt hold that delusion. Remember the famous slip from Ursula saying the UK is a speed boat and the EU a supertanker. Leavers quickly jumping on the comment to say 'duh no shit. We told you so'.

                              "We are still suffering significantly as a result of our world leading trade barriers, which we still haven't implemented."

                              Eh? If its a problem caused by trade barriers but we havnt implemented them how is it the barriers?

                              "And yet our trade deficit continues to grow."

                              And? If your reading from jan 2022 they do warn that HMRC have changed how they collect data but still so?

                              1. John Robson Silver badge

                                Re: @Spaceman9

                                "So they had to catch up? Why was that? *yeah I am hitting you with the point*."

                                The point being?

                                We paid more and started earlier - both things we could have done without Brexit. We were still in the EMA, which is the only reason we could approve the vaccines in the first place.

                                And yes, we started earlier - but only barely.

                                And we were particularly bad at being a global player in the vaccine market: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2021/03/25/has-the-uk-really-outperformed-the-eu-on-covid-19-vaccinations/

                                And it wasn't Brexit related anyway:

                                https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/covid-vaccine-decisions-brexit

                                It never was a Brexit benefit. However much you try to bleat about it.

                                "Eh? If its a problem caused by trade barriers but we havnt implemented them how is it the barriers?"

                                You know when you started building a wall in front of your house - and you'd only put down a few courses of brick.. it was a bit awkward to jump over... but each new course of brick you put on made it harder and harder... You haven't "built the wall" until you've finished it - but it's still difficult to pass whilst the wall is being built.

                                We haven't completely implemented the trade barriers we chose to erect. But there are some bits which are in force. In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise.

                                "HMRC have changed how they collect data" Of course they have, got to try and hide the effects as much as possible.

                                Just look at the roads in Kent and tell me with a straight face that international trade is anywhere near pre covid levels. Bear in mind that lorry drivers won't even go to dover if they haven't already got the paperwork sorted - what's the point. So most of the delays aren't in Kent, they're in the warehouses across the country.

                                Just look at the shelves in your local supermarket - I've never seen so many empty shelves, so little choice.

                                Just look at our inflation, particularly when looking at the cheaper products, compared with our global peers.

                                Then compare Britain with NI...

                                British trade has been, and will continue to be, strangled by the hard tory Brexit which is completely counter to what was promised in an illegally contested referendum which was "won" by a small minority - why wasn't there a confirmatory referendum when the deal was known? Oh yes - because the Brexit party didn't want to lose out on the personal gain they could see.

                                1. codejunky Silver badge

                                  Re: @Spaceman9

                                  @John Robson

                                  "The point being?"

                                  Really? Dont be a dipshit, you even say it in your first response to me at the start of the comment- "Well - yes we started faster". To claim you dont get the point after our discussing it is just stupid.

                                  "We paid more and started earlier - both things we could have done without Brexit"

                                  Except that hits the wall of reality. I have already explained how wrong you are in this thread- https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/04/08/after_minimum_viable_product_rollout/#c_4443058 so if you have an actual answer to that please share. However your response to that comment was to move goalposts and talk about irrelevant garbage.

                                  "And yes, we started earlier - but only barely."

                                  Same month different ends. Plus the UK had sufficient supply of vaccine (remember concerns of running out of vials? which was addressed so didnt happen) unlike the EU.

                                  "And we were particularly bad at being a global player in the vaccine market: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2021/03/25/has-the-uk-really-outperformed-the-eu-on-covid-19-vaccinations/"

                                  I suggest you read the article you posted. It basically explains how the EU screwed up and the UK placed the orders and understood the contracts it signed. However the article seems to be written in a whining tone of someone who thinks the EU shouldnt be blamed for incompetence. I must give the article credit for all its crying and whining it does seem to accept the facts that the UK did it right and the EU did shockingly bad even if he doesnt want to say that.

                                  "And it wasn't Brexit related anyway:"

                                  "It never was a Brexit benefit. However much you try to bleat about it."

                                  Lies! Go back and answer my comment I link above and answer why you hold UK supremacist views. Dont change the subject or run away with the goalposts again but see if you can answer.

                                  "In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise."

                                  So the EU cant get access to what they want but we can. Awesome. Especially as people got grumpy when stuff wasnt on the shelves at one point.

                                  "Just look at the roads in Kent and tell me with a straight face that international trade is anywhere near pre covid levels"

                                  I am nowhere near Kent but as I have already responded to you previously (since your memory seems to have 'glitched' today)- "This will be interesting to keep an eye on."

                                  "Just look at the shelves in your local supermarket - I've never seen so many empty shelves, so little choice."

                                  Seriously? Where about are you in the country? Here the shelves are completely full in all the supermarkets I visit. I even go later to avoid queues.

                                  "Just look at our inflation, particularly when looking at the cheaper products, compared with our global peers."

                                  You are shocked at rising inflation? Why? We stall the economy, print money and spaff it and rely on gas only to be hit by a war blocking supply. But what are you on about 'global peers'? - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe

                                  Even less than the US- https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=world

                                  "hard tory Brexit which is completely counter to what was promised in an illegally contested referendum which was "won" by a small minority"

                                  Waaaaaaaa!!! Waaaaaaa!!! Didnt get my way. Now you got that out of your system do you think maybe that attitude is why you 'forgot' what we were talking about and avoid the point?

                                  1. John Robson Silver badge

                                    Re: @Spaceman9

                                    "Lies! Go back and answer my comment I link above and answer why you hold UK supremacist views. Dont change the subject or run away with the goalposts again but see if you can answer."

                                    Sorry - what planet are you on?

                                    You think I hold UK supremacist views? On what basis is that? Because there were different options available to us? Because you can't face the fact that the options weren't changed by our relationship with the EU?

                                    The EU didn't screw up - they realised that a global situation demands a global response. We however acted like the selfish brat in the corner.

                                    ""In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise."

                                    So the EU cant get access to what they want but we can. Awesome. Especially as people got grumpy when stuff wasnt on the shelves at one point."

                                    Erm - what? Stuff is still not available on our shelves - and the EU can import anything they like, although it's now easier to source it from a supplier within the remaining single market (i.e. it's worse for us, not them).

                                    You're genuinely trying to claim that actively giving an advantage to foreign suppliers is a Brexit benefit.

                                    I think that rather says as much as I need to hear. There is a reason people stop responding to you - you fail to let the facts penetrate or influence your argument in the slightest.

                                    You have failed to suggest a single benefit of the hard tory Brexit that stands up to even the most basic scrutiny - and will continue to fail to do so.

                                    I do hope that your echo chamber is comfortable enough that you don't try to come out into the real world again.

                                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                                      Re: @Spaceman9

                                      @John Robson

                                      "Sorry - what planet are you on?"

                                      Just want to ask, are you the same person as was posting replies to me previously or do you share an account? Have you seriously forgotten our previous comments on this very thread?

                                      "You think I hold UK supremacist views?"

                                      Yes. You seem to believe the UK would remain and go its own way unlike every member government in the EU. That the UK is better run than countries such as Germany who binned their own plans under pressure from the EU to do joint procurement. Otherwise why do you think the UK would have done its own thing against all evidence from every member government in the EU?

                                      "The EU didn't screw up - they realised that a global situation demands a global response. We however acted like the selfish brat in the corner."

                                      I dont understand how you can hold on to that wild belief against all evidence? The UK, UK and Israel left the EU behind because we placed orders and got ready to distribute them. The EU didnt. What global response? It was an EU response that was almost comatose and so members then went their own way anyway because the EU failed.

                                      "Erm - what? Stuff is still not available on our shelves"

                                      Again I have no idea where you are. I havnt seen any issues in any of the 4 supermarkets and various other stores I visit here. Not one.

                                      "and the EU can import anything they like, although it's now easier to source it from a supplier within the remaining single market (i.e. it's worse for us, not them)."

                                      That is the opposite of what you said- "In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise.". So if they are applying checks and making things difficult then they have a harder time getting what they want from the UK but the UK you say isnt having that problem, we are letting stuff in.

                                      Make up your mind.

                                      "You're genuinely trying to claim that actively giving an advantage to foreign suppliers is a Brexit benefit."

                                      It is. You remember all that talk of trade and how not having the protectionist borders of the EU etc? Sounds like you are saying its happened. Woohoo!

                                      "There is a reason people stop responding to you - you fail to let the facts penetrate or influence your argument in the slightest."

                                      Interesting how they stop responding when the question is too difficult for them to answer without pretending they live in an alternate universe. Expecting your going that road too since your ducking and weaving and forgetting what we are talking about.

                                      "You have failed to suggest a single benefit"

                                      And there we go. You cannot answer, cannot refute the benefit and even admitted the result in your own comment but then the fingers go back in the ears and 'lalalala'. I can understand people saying the benefits dont outweigh the costs, its an opinion I disagree with but can still acknowledge the facts. To claim no benefits is to run from the facts, and you are doing that at pace now.

                                      Note how you have changed the subject, taken the goalposts, reached for tangents and now outright denied reality. All the while I have answered each subject, tangent and even explained the irrelevance of you moving the goalposts and even at one point agreed with you over an issue over trade. Not once have I ducked, weaved or run away.

                                      So which of us is in the real world and which occupied a fantasy?

                                      1. codejunky Silver badge
                                        Headmaster

                                        Re: @Spaceman9

                                        "The UK, UK"

                                        *The UK, US. Before someone jumps on it

                                      2. John Robson Silver badge

                                        Re: @Spaceman9

                                        ""You have failed to suggest a single benefit"

                                        And there we go. You cannot answer, cannot refute the benefit and even admitted the result in your own comment but then the fingers go back in the ears and 'lalalala'. "

                                        So which EU regulation would have forced us to join their vaccine rollout?

                                        None - none at all. It was a choice, and a rational choice, made by the grown ups in the EU to deal with a pandemic. Not to hoard, not to be selfish, but to export vaccines, even to the UK. The UK however didn't do likewise, and as far as we can tell didn't export any vaccines for months.

                                        The vaccine rollout was a "triumph" of selfishness. Given the corruption we have seen since I have no doubt that there were direct benefits in terms of financial interests held by those in government.

                                        You keep claiming it's something magically Brexit, despite every reputable source pointing out that it was completely independent of Brexit (and in fact that our membership of the EMA was rather important).

                                        You seem to think that stopping exports and not validating imports is good for the UK, which is contrary to every rational economist. You fail to understand even the most basic concepts of trade.

                                        https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F8b505410-ac3e-11ec-9a07-41123ed8a48e-standard.png

                                        You haven't ducked or weaved, you've just declared that the square root of i is positive, and that it was always positive. Doublethink in the extreme.

                                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                                          Re: @Spaceman9

                                          @John Robson

                                          "So which EU regulation would have forced us to join their vaccine rollout?"

                                          A Dublin minister suggests getting vaccine from NI and bringing it over, the EU says no. Germany breaks its agreement with the EU to order vaccine from a company already in negotiation with the EU. The EU stole vaccine for export and threatened to confiscate UK supply. Even almost implementing Article 6 Irish border after it had just been agreed. Again would you care to address the real world?

                                          "Not to hoard, not to be selfish, but to export vaccines, even to the UK."

                                          You seem mistaken. It wasnt an EU decision to export vaccine even to the UK, it was the private businesses that had purchase orders from the UK and to meet their contractual obligations had to deliver.

                                          "The UK however didn't do likewise, and as far as we can tell didn't export any vaccines for months."

                                          Yup. The UK ordered enough vaccine, vaccinated its population as it had the obligation to do and supplied the UK foreign territories as obligated and then exported the excess purchased by the UK gov.

                                          "The vaccine rollout was a "triumph" of selfishness."

                                          Then all I can say is thankfully the UK, US, Israel and the like put ordering vaccine above loyalty to a political union that failed in the task. And you must consider Germany and Hungary as selfish for making their own purchases after the failure of the EU to deliver. Do you consider the French selfish for limiting orders by the EU of other vaccines in relation to the Sanofi candidate which in the end failed?

                                          "You keep claiming it's something magically Brexit, despite every reputable source pointing out that it was completely independent of Brexit"

                                          So you hold UK supremacist views? Can you explain? Why do you believe the UK is so much better run than all the other member countries that we would have gone our own way while every member country joined up and even ditched their own plans? Why do you believe the UK government to be so superior as to make the right choice when the others all didnt? Cmon I want an answer to this.

                                          "You seem to think that stopping exports and not validating imports is good for the UK"

                                          I am working with your comments and your claims where you contradict yourself. Now your moving the goalposts again.

                                          "https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F8b505410-ac3e-11ec-9a07-41123ed8a48e-standard.png"

                                          Error 400. Fairly sure you didnt intend that link.

                                          "You haven't ducked or weaved"

                                          So you can now come to reality and answer instead of ducking and weaving.

                                          "Doublethink in the extreme."

                                          Read the thread and you might find you are mistaken as to who has extreme doublethink.

                                  2. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: @Spaceman9

                                    >Dont be a dipshit<

                                    Give it a rest, you melt.

                        2. redpola

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          “ Well - yes we started faster”

                          Actually, Hungary, an EU member state, began vaccinating one day before the UK did.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: @Spaceman9

                            @redpola

                            "Actually, Hungary, an EU member state, began vaccinating one day before the UK did."

                            Are you sure? Hungary started vaccinating 1 day before the other EU members who were to do so on the 28th dec 2020. The UK started on the 8th.

                            Hungary started early to do its medical professionals, the UK started with the elderly and healthcare workers.

                            1. codejunky Silver badge

                              Re: @Spaceman9

                              Lots of thumbs and no facts. Do the 6 downvoters disagree and have some fact to base that on? Or is it just the usual upset that the world wont bend to tears?

                2. johnB

                  Re: @Spaceman9Blue Passports

                  Nope - my new passport is black

                3. JassMan Silver badge

                  Re: @GruntyMcPugh

                  Yeah, but what makes the omnishambles even more galling is that we could have kept Blue Passports without brexit. Just another lie on scale of bent bananas. Croatia still have dark-blue. Burgundy was just offered as an example colour in the directive about bio-metric consistency. Every country using Burgundy, seems to have a different idea of off-red.

                4. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  New Post Brexit UK Passports, printed in the EU

                  1. codejunky Silver badge
                    FAIL

                    Re: @Spaceman9

                    @Fruit and Nutcase

                    "New Post Brexit UK Passports, printed in the EU"

                    Is that a bad thing? Do you not agree with international trade? Should they cost more and print them domestically? Or do you dislike the foreigners?

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: @Spaceman9

                      It's an absolutely great thing! Gets the Gammons frothing which is always good for a laugh.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        By 'Gammons', I assume you mean the hard-core remainers, since they are most certainly the only ones that get red in the face about Brexit nowadays.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: @Spaceman9

                          No, Other AC. I meant the Gammons: Flag botherers. The ones who fall for prey to scams, like Brexit and other Astro Turfing, by getting themselves into a tizzy over made up stories.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: @Spaceman9

                            Red in the face and frothing about an issue - yup remainers

                            Flag bothering - yup, remainers (with their blue and yellow flags and beanie hats, etc, etc)

                            Fall prey to scams - yup, remainers (mindlessly believing every Pro-EU or anti-UK point of view)

                            Getting into a tizzy over made up stories (emergency budget, recession, massive increase in unemployment, no one agreeing a trade deal, not being a member of the WTO and having to re-apply for membership) - yup, remainers.

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

                      Re: @Spaceman9

                      Absolutely no problem with where these are produced (provided the workers get a decent living wage, decent work conditions etc) - but somewhat ironic with what the Brexiteers were saying about UK jobs etc.

                      Should they cost more and print them domestically?

                      They'd be even cheaper without the additional hurdles of not being in the EU

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: @Spaceman9

                        @Fruit and Nutcase

                        "but somewhat ironic with what the Brexiteers were saying about UK jobs etc."

                        Ironic because of what brexiteers were saying about trade? Why should we print them when the French will do it cheaper? It allows people here to go do something else.

                        "They'd be even cheaper without the additional hurdles of not being in the EU"

                        While the trade off being we would have to still be in the EU and all the costs of that. Probably not cheaper and we would be on the hook for the covid bailout fund as well as the ever increasing costs. Remainers cried about paying the bill already racked up for being in the EU (the divorce bill).

              3. nijam Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                > disappointing damp squib for ... fanatical remainers

                There were no fanatical remainers, of course. The benefits of brexit though... that really is a damp - positively drenched, in fact - squib.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @nijam

                  "There were no fanatical remainers, of course."

                  You must be new here, welcome.

                  "The benefits of brexit though... that really is a damp - positively drenched, in fact - squib."

                  Keep telling yourself that.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: @Spaceman9

                    >>>>Keep telling yourself that.

                    No need, this pamphlet ,from Boris' shower of Brexit incompetents, says it all.

              4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                "You do realise project fear turned into a disappointing damp squib for the EU and fanatical remainers?"

                ISTR you saying the EU was about to collapse so get out while we can. EU still there, UK starting to look as if bits might drop off, such as NI.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @Doctor Syntax

                  "ISTR you saying the EU was about to collapse so get out while we can"

                  Yup. The EU creates crisis after crisis and is still going to the wall at full speed. I said it about the Eurozone when I was called Eurosceptic for not wanting the Euro to replace the GBP and as the crash proved I was right. I am still of the same opinion. The EU needs severe and drastic change if it is to survive and I only see 2 options- back to a trade block or federalising.

                  "EU still there"

                  With member countries actively ignoring its attempts to dictate domestic policy. With member countries openly breaking agreements with the EU (Germany vaccine procurement) because of the failure from the supranational entity. Look weak internationally and were bent over by Russia recently and mocked due to the Turkey visit previously. Still going to the wall and without severe and drastic change will hit it.

                  "UK starting to look as if bits might drop off, such as NI."

                  Is it?

          2. Citizen of Nowhere

            Re: @Spaceman9

            Nope. They sold Scotland willingly. Even vote to remain after being promised candy and rainbows if they left.

            The Union was massively unpopular in Scotland. The country was sold down the river by a clique of aristocrats who had political and financial interests south of the border which had always existed, but intensified after the Union of the Crowns. That they had thrown a lot of their money at a ridiculous "colonial" adventure certainly added to their corruptibility. Bribing them was not difficult for the Crown. What's more, the coercive measures taken to browbeat Scotland, such as the Alien Act of 1705, are rarely if ever mentioned by those who peddle cosy unionist myths. Myths which, unfortunately, are still widely believed :-(

            The 2014 referendum was won partly by the "vow" (made in bad faith by the unionists) that something close to devo max would be implemented if Scotland remained and partly by the argument that we would be out of the EU if we left and that it would take years and years to get back in, if Spain even let us (all of which was and remains a bunch of old unionist cobblers).

            Times may change, but rogues be constant.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @Spaceman9

              @Citizen of Nowhere

              "The country was sold down the river by a clique of aristocrats who had political and financial interests south of the border which had always existed, but intensified after the Union of the Crowns"

              Didnt they also screw up their economy badly which made a union more desirable?

              "The 2014 referendum was won partly by the "vow" (made in bad faith by the unionists) that something close to devo max would be implemented if Scotland remained and partly by the argument that we would be out of the EU if we left and that it would take years and years to get back in"

              While independence was to be anything but independence while expecting the UK to shoulder the cost of a plan that didnt add up. But it is true that Scotland would have been out of the EU if they left the UK.

              "Times may change, but rogues be constant."

              We know. If Scotland wanted independence they should have let England vote too. Although their wet dreams of the UK funding their strop would have been laughed off even harder.

              1. Citizen of Nowhere

                Re: @Spaceman9

                >We know. If Scotland wanted independence they should have let England vote too. Although their wet dreams of the UK funding their strop would have been laughed off even harder.

                Good to see the condescension remains as unchanged as the roguery . Only to be expected, of course :-)

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @Citizen of Nowhere

                  "Good to see the condescension remains as unchanged as the roguery . Only to be expected, of course :-)"

                  Do you not think England would vote to remove Scotland from the union? I dont know but I would suspect there would be a considerable number willing to stop funding Scotland although it does bring up issues for defence of the country.

                  Or is your issue with the Scottish plan to fund itself being dependent on the UK funding their wet dream? Noting their plan hinged on oil prices which collapsed and the UK funding them while they try to find the money for their spending desires.

                  1. Citizen of Nowhere

                    Re: @Spaceman9

                    >Do you not think England would vote to remove Scotland from the union?

                    No idea. We always hear this refrain that we are a burden. So, go ahead, free yourselves of the burden. England could hold a referendum to leave the United Kingdom ;-) It could get us to the inevitable quicker as it would swerve the issue of older Scots who still support the Union through a sense of economic, social and cultural inferiority to mighty England :-) I guess that way we could all find out the truth about which nation is a burden to the other, beyond the lies and cooked books of GERS and an economy which is still almost completely at the mercy of Westminster's economic and financial policies.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @Spaceman9

                      @Citizen of Nowhere

                      "No idea. We always hear this refrain that we are a burden."

                      Financially Scotland is. That doesnt mean it has no value to the Union and I am happy to recognise that. Its also the place that spends its time crying about being in the Union while its deficit is covered by the UK. The problem is the SNP seem aware of how dependent they are on the UK that demands for independence really wernt. Going their own way is one thing but doing so with the UK financially backing its every whim and failure while they tried to claim they would take none of the debt was insulting.

                      A few of us wondered what would happen if we offered independence but they take a share of the debt and had none of the financial and infrastructure support they were demanding.

              2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                "If Scotland wanted independence they should have let England vote too."

                That's one thing we agree on.

            2. I am the liquor
              Joke

              Re: a clique of aristocrats

              Thank goodness it's not the 18th century any more. Imagine living in a country where a clique of aristocrats screwed over the little people and ran everything for the benefit of their own fabulously wealthy friends and family.

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: a clique of aristocrats

                fabulously wealthy friends and non-dom family

                FTFY

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @Spaceman9

              "The country was sold down the river by a clique of aristocrats who had political and financial interests..."

              @Spaceman9

              Ho ho! Sounds exactly like Brexit! History repeating itself!

              It's delightful to observe the cognitive dissonance in the Pro-Brexit/Anti-Independence-for-Scotland brigade. Their mental gymnastics are breathtaking.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @Spaceman9

        Since being a member of the EU and being in the single market are completely independent that's a very odd comment to make.

        Indeed the leave campaigns all explicitly stated that there was never any question of leaving the customs union.

        And that's ignoring the fact that you don't "surrender" to a political union - you join it and, in our case, have a very significant say in how the whole thing is run.

        In the same way that you "surrender" to your family when you choose to settle down and have kids.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @Spaceman9

          @AC

          "Since being a member of the EU and being in the single market are completely independent that's a very odd comment to make."

          And who is in charge of the single market? Which in itself inflicts quotas and tariffs which hurt the member countries and blocks out those terrible foreigners.

          "Indeed the leave campaigns all explicitly stated that there was never any question of leaving the customs union."

          Erm- https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

          "And that's ignoring the fact that you don't "surrender" to a political union - you join it"

          And we left it. While they seek to increase their control over member countries and seek to transfer more sovereignty to the central overlords.. erm... gov.

          "In the same way that you "surrender" to your family when you choose to settle down and have kids."

          That I did get a choice in. Just as I got a choice in voting to leave. We never voted to join the political union though.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: @Spaceman9

            "And who is in charge of the single market?"

            Its members, of course.

            Which we were one of but no longer are. However for many UK businesses its members are an essential market.

            1. Tilda Rice

              Re: @Spaceman9

              astonishing, but we are still able to trade with the EU <gasp>

              1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                Trade we can, with increased red tape and increased cost to the consumer

              2. Anonymous Coward
        2. I am the liquor

          Re: @Spaceman9

          In the same way that you "surrender" to your family when you choose to settle down and have kids.

          That's a pretty convincing argument actually, I think you just flipped me from remain to leave.

      3. Spaceman9

        Re: @Spaceman9

        "Without surrendering ..."

        Away with your war analogies!

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @Spaceman9

          @Spaceman9

          "Away with your war analogies!"

          While you can surrender in war you can also surrender without war. Not a war analogy, just an observation.

          1. Spaceman9

            Re: @Spaceman9

            No it is not an observation. It is the language that was used throughout the brexit campain. It was quite simply use to refame the debate as a battle of some kind. Heroic brits fighting against the imperialist EU.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @Spaceman9

              @Spaceman9

              "No it is not an observation"

              So you (whoever you are) are telling me what I observe or dont? Psychic?

              "It is the language that was used throughout the brexit campain."

              I can believe it was used as people observed UK sovereignty had been surrendered to the EU. Some may have tried to frame it to sound as a battle I wouldnt be shocked.

              "Heroic brits fighting against the imperialist EU."

              This really did seem to be a thing that occupied the minds of staunch remainers. They seemed to have some obsession with WW1/2 and also kept referring to going backwards to the 1970's too. I never understood their desire over all that.

              1. monty75

                Re: @Spaceman9

                "This really did seem to be a thing that occupied the minds of staunch remainers. They seemed to have some obsession with WW1/2 and also kept referring to going backwards to the 1970's too. I never understood their desire over all that."

                Your memory is dodgy. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020/01/31/ww2-has-become-a-rallying-point-for-leavers-it-need-not-have-been-so/

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @monty75

                  "Your memory is dodgy"

                  Sorry nope. Constant conversations with remainers even before the vote resulted in them bringing up the wars and going back in time. Feel free to go through the ever long posting history if you like. But your blog link sounds like a sore remoaner who studies history and is going on about the war. Exactly the situation I describe.

      4. Warm Braw Silver badge

        Re: @Spaceman9

        Turkey is part of the CU as a result of a specific bilateral treaty: no surrender.

        Billions of VAT have been lost because the UK doesn't dare enforce its own border controls as to do so would risk food supplies: surrender.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @Spaceman9

          @Warm Braw

          "Turkey is part of the CU as a result of a specific bilateral treaty: no surrender."

          Well said. They wanted to join and so they did.

          "Billions of VAT have been lost because the UK doesn't dare enforce its own border controls as to do so would risk food supplies: surrender."

          I recall food supply concerns recently over Ukraine and before that complaints of empty shelves because of covid. Maybe the gov isnt as dumb as it looks. However do you have a source?

          1. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

            Re: @Spaceman9

            Maybe the gov isnt as dumb as it looks

            Lets be fair, you're not exactly setting a high bar there are you? That is to say that this mob do such a fantastic job of looking so freaking dumb that to actually be more dumb than that would be quite an achievement.

            1. codejunky Silver badge
              Thumb Up

              Re: @Spaceman9

              @Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

              "Lets be fair, you're not exactly setting a high bar there are you?"

              Couldnt slip an atom of oxygen under it :)

              "That is to say that this mob do such a fantastic job of looking so freaking dumb that to actually be more dumb than that would be quite an achievement."

              As I say further down, I am worried there isnt even an opposition and we are stuck with this 'situation' continuing.

          2. Warm Braw Silver badge

            Re: @Spaceman9

            Do you have a source?

            These will probably do for a start...

            https://www.export.org.uk/news/600642/Government-considering-further-delay-to-SPS-checks-on-EU-agrifoods-to-avoid-supply-chain-disaster-.htm

            https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-pragmatic-new-timetable-for-introducing-border-controls

            https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-14/u-k-delays-brexit-border-checks-on-eu-goods-as-shortages-hit

            https://theloadstar.com/uk-exchequer-may-have-lost-up-to-30bn-of-vat-via-non-declarations/

            http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/187157/border-controls-threaten-supply

            https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/border-consequences-brexit

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @Spaceman9

              @Warm Braw

              "These will probably do for a start..."

              Cheers. Always happy to know more.

              "https://www.export.org.uk/news/600642/Government-considering-further-delay-to-SPS-checks-on-EU-agrifoods-to-avoid-supply-chain-disaster-.htm"

              According to a government source quoted by The Independent: “Ministers are looking at this again in the light of cost of living pressures and supply chain pressures.”

              It added that “the war in Ukraine has also changed the economic context.”

              Meanwhile, the Food and Drink Federation has said that a delay is justified due to the crisis in Ukraine, which has massively impacted supplies of wheat, sunflower oil and fish.

              I had suspicions Ukraine may affect the reasoning.

              "https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-pragmatic-new-timetable-for-introducing-border-controls"

              Global pandemic has affected supply chains in the UK and across Europe

              Again I suspected.

              "http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/187157/border-controls-threaten-supply"

              New UK border controls could delay European food imports, industry leaders warn

              Yup, that is saying the gov is doing a good job delaying the checks.

              Interestingly the sources you posted all seem to confirm the same thing. Feel quite surprised how accurate my guess was as it was just a quick guess from the top of my head.

              1. John Robson Silver badge

                Re: @Spaceman9

                "Yup, that is saying the gov is doing a good job delaying the checks."

                Ah yes - take back control of our borders by completely opening them to any smugglers, and not checking whether goods are safe...

                In the same way seeking medical attention is a good idea if you shoot yourself in the foot...

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @John Robson

                  "Ah yes - take back control of our borders by completely opening them to any smugglers, and not checking whether goods are safe..."

                  Eh? Are you confused? The UK choosing how to handle its borders is taking back control of them. More open or closed its the UK's decision not the EU's which is taking back control. Are you seriously arguing for shortages? I hope you didnt complain when there were things missing from the shelves otherwise your just moaning for the sake of it.

              2. Trubbs
                Pint

                Re: @Spaceman9

                Where is the block poster button?

                In my home town many years ago when I was a youth, there was a scruffy looking old bloke stood in a doorway, shouting incoherently, discernable words but in an illogical order. Emitting almost violent ramblings to anyone passing by accompanied by wild gesticulations like chemically induced private semaphore signals, spittle on his chin, a hypnotic stare - the full works.

                Commentard Mr C Junky you remind him to me, the argument is lost get over it. It was a bad idea for business and personal freedoms. But it happened, so now I spend my working and personal life trying to mitigate the effects as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Myself and many others, we don't complain just calmly state facts

                Anyway, we used to give him a wide berth (pun intended)

                Happy Friday cheers

                1. 2+2=5 Silver badge
                  Joke

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  > But it happened, so now I spend my working and personal life trying to mitigate the effects as cheaply and efficiently as possible.

                  For some reason I read that as medicate. :-)

                2. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  @Trubbs

                  "Where is the block poster button?"

                  No idea otherwise a troll or two would have been hit by it by me :)

                  "Commentard Mr C Junky you remind him to me"

                  Interesting. I am guessing this guy left quite an impression on you. What is really interesting is how you take a calm and friendly post by me where I am pleasantly surprised at another poster providing sources which point to positive action by the gov, and yet somehow in your mind you relate positivity with someone you describe as opposite. Is this an image conjured to you regularly or is it situations such as when you disagree with someone? Or is it something you have linked in your mind with certain subjects such as brexit?

                  "Anyway, we used to give him a wide berth (pun intended)"

                  And yet you chose to engage with me your mental imagery. Fascinating.

                3. TimMaher Silver badge
                  Pint

                  Re: @Spaceman9

                  Until I got to the third paragraph @Trubbs I thought you were about to announce @amanfrommars1.

                  Have a beer.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Devastating outage" ?

    Has this system ever worked ?

    It can't possibly have, given the timescales between knowing what it had to do (January 2020) and now.

    People of Kent had better get used to this as the new normal. Except when it's worse.

    1. First Light Silver badge

      Re: "Devastating outage" ?

      They voted for it. 59% in favour of Brexit. They can suck it up.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    and this is before the full regulations get enforced.

    What's the money on the UK fudging that date ..

    Again.

    ?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brexit

    The Gift that keeps on Giving.

    1. Doctor Tarr

      Re: Brexit

      I was thinking the same but more as a clusterfuck that keeps on fucking.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Obviously I can’t prove it, but I knew this would be the case having sat on a couple of calls with HRMC about it a few months ago.

  6. codejunky Silver badge

    Amazing isnt it

    So the brexit referendum was 2016 and the release was done in stages starting 2020. The old system lasting almost quarter of a decade. In 2010 HMRC decided to replace CHIEF with a more advanced version but not much to say about that as I dont see much by way of information nor progress.

    Dont you hate it when a change comes out of the blue to something that was so fit for purpose it didnt need replacing. However that doesnt apply in this case.

    1. nematoad Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Amazing isnt it

      "The old system lasting almost quarter of a decade."

      What 2.5 years?

      I would not call that old.

      Perhaps you meant "a quarter of a century"?

      1. codejunky Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Amazing isnt it

        @nematoad

        "What 2.5 years?

        I would not call that old.

        Perhaps you meant "a quarter of a century"?"

        Thankfully Friday. Good catch

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Amazing isnt it

      CDS, the replacement system for CHIEF, planned for 2019 will be released in 2023. Possibly.

      Launched the year Netscape Navigator was born, the UK's CHIEF customs system finally has a retirement date

      Unsurprisingly if you take a 27 year old system designed for life inside the Single Market and Customs Union and try and scale it up to cope with everything everywhere, it regularly dies on its arse.

      GVMS is shiny and new though and is probably agile and cloudy. Surely nothing could go wrong there...

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Amazing isnt it

        "CDS, the replacement system for CHIEF, planned for 2019 will be released in 2023. Possibly."

        Well said, they already planned to upgrade nearly a decade before and we had the brexit result in 2016.

        "Unsurprisingly if you take a 27 year old system designed for life inside the Single Market and Customs Union and try and scale it up to cope with everything everywhere, it regularly dies on its arse."

        Understandably. It seems they were aware for a long time that they were in need of upgrading it and that was just for remaining.

        "GVMS is shiny and new though and is probably agile and cloudy. Surely nothing could go wrong there..."

        Its government IT. We probably have a similar level of faith in its brilliance.

  7. Natalie Gritpants Jr Silver badge

    "Her Majesty's Customs & Revenue"

    Is that a rebranding exercise for HMRC? Do they have a nice shiny new logo?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    another brexit win................................

  9. Natalie Gritpants Jr Silver badge

    Bit late to blame brexit

    As mentioned above, the vote to leave happened 6 years ago and was never going to go away. That should be long enough to figure out what has to change and pay for the systems to do it. Intransigence and incompetence are the things to blame.

    1. nematoad Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Bit late to blame brexit

      "Intransigence and incompetence are the things to blame."

      Oh, you mean the government?

      Yes, that about sums this lot up, and we still have another two years to put up with them.

      1. codejunky Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Bit late to blame brexit

        @nematoad

        "Yes, that about sums this lot up, and we still have another two years to put up with them."

        What worries me is the lack of any opposition. We may end up with this lot as is for longer because of an alternative. Its not like this gov hasnt given plenty of opportunities for an opposition party of any size to bash them hard.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Bit late to blame brexit

          "Its not like this gov hasnt given plenty of opportunities for an opposition party of any size to bash them hard."

          I think they've had a series of lucky breaks in the way of things getting steadily worse. Covid came along at just the right time to confound the effects of Brexit. Partygate almost had them sunk and then Dick threw BoJo a lifeline as from one clinger on in post* to another, by effectively delaying the Grey report. In his SOP BoJo rewarded that by throwing her under a bus. And then the Ukraine conflict came along.

          * A post she shouldn't even have been in since managing the killing of Charles de Menezesz.

          1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
            Unhappy

            Re: Bit late to blame brexit

            "A post she shouldn't even have been in since managing the killing of Charles de Menezesz"

            A fact never forgotten by some of us.

    2. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: Bit late to blame brexit

      The vote might have been 6 years ago, but the negotiations didn't complete until the very last minute with ministers changing their minds, or at least the message, every few weeks in the months leading up to it and publicly taking all positions on a spectrum from reverting to WTO rules to staying in the customs union. If I remember correctly the Northern Ireland situation happened very late in the day, so even if there had been some preemptive speccing and development by HMRC, a lot of it would probably have gone up in smoke at that point.

      It would have been a brave person who signed off a set of requirements before the exit deal was signed and the implications understood - and I don't assume or believe that the implications on trade (or, indeed, anything much) were understood before the deal was signed.

  10. Dave Pickles

    "According to The Guardian, GVMS has suffered a systems outage since it was temporarily taken offline during an update to another HMRC customs system, handling import and export freight, known as Chief."

    So sometime. maybe months ago, someone made a change to a configuration file or startup script which caused the system to fail the next time it was rebooted? And I don't suppose such a teeny-weeny tweak ever got documented?

  11. steven_t
    WTF?

    Stable???

    "... the department responsible for GVMS, told the paper its IT systems were stable ..."

    I suppose being down is stable, in a sense. That's a hell of a way to put a positive spin on it!

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: Stable???

      "Stable" also explains the vague whiff of horseshit.

  12. 8BitGuru

    Sounds about right

    "Updated to add at 16:00 on April 18, 2022

    A HMRC spokesperson told us the system is back online: "Following an outage last week, we have successfully made changes ..."

    So, another 10 days before they figure-out which VM didn't restart.

    By the way, could you let me have the winning Euromillions numbers for tonight please?

    1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Sounds about right

      Never mind that. I want my 10 days back!

    2. plunet
      FAIL

      Re: Sounds about right

      "Updated to add at 16:00 on April 18, 2022"

      Just after Easter weekend.... so maybe they discovered the Easter Egg that was left in GVMS by some contractors that got shafted by IR35.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Sounds about right

      They're saying it's back online but carry on using paper till next week.

      So it's not back online.

  13. Tempest
    Thumb Up

    It was Sir Oswald Mosley who, on resignation from the Government in 1930 May who . . .

    coined the phrase "We cannot muddle through this time". Since that time it appears that this has been adopted as the mantra for many things from Britain.

    For younger readers, Mosley was was an English politician, known principally as the founder of the British Union of Fascists. He was Labour Member of Parliament for Harrow from 1918 to 1924, for Smethwick from 1926 to 1931 later becoming the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the Labour Government of 1929-31.

  14. Marjolica

    Updated to add at 16:00 on April 18, 2022

    " Updated to add at 16:00 on April 18, 2022

    A HMRC spokesperson told us the system is back online: "Following an outage last week, we have successfully made changes to the HMRC network to allow availability of the Goods Vehicle Movement Service (GVMS).

    "Contingencies will remain in place over the weekend to continue to ensure the movement of goods and allow continued testing. From Monday midday, Goods Movement References will be required for all movements using GVMS.""

    That's quick : 10 day notice that it will be fixed.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I NEED TO KNOW......

    Is crapita involved?

    1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

      Re: I NEED TO KNOW......

      I would guess not

      The fact the system is back online would rule out that bunch of idiots

      Fun question: I wonder if the CEO's of those outsourcing companies the government are so fond of get togther and regail each other with stories of "You wont belive how much money I screwed out of the taxpayer on the last deal"

      Wheres the blood sucking leeches icon?

  16. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    that's it then...

    So what you are saying is that everything will return to normal as soon as a government IT project delivers the goods.

    Oh...

    We are *so* fucked.

  17. This post has been deleted by its author

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The thing that causes me most concern with this is...

    Stop giving Fujitsu Government projects! They will do a crap job!

    They are not even on the preferred suppliers list but are allowed to tender for UK Gov work, and with Michael Keegan in the Cabinet Office, they appear to be winning everything.

    1. Bill 21

      Re: The thing that causes me most concern with this is...

      Not sure they're responsible for the new thing, seems not to have been mentioned in the article. They seem to be getting £168m to keep the old junk up for 5 yrs.

  19. Claverhouse Silver badge

    Not just my visceral opposition to democracy --- of which this government is the ineluctable result: and only the American system * more fully is the Will of that People --- nor my disdain for that shrieking little vulgarian, but how could being ruled by one's own people ( as is now happening in Afghanistan ) be automatically better than being ruled by others, any competent others, if one's own government people are ravingly inadequate fools who are solely out for their own pockets and in the service of their class ?

    .

    Serious question. Not merely applying the the fatuous Brexit, but to many of the nationalist, independence-using governments of the 20th century of far left and far right.

    .

    .

    * 'System' being used vaguely since we are dealing with Americans here: no offence, but even their bureaucracies are fundamentally chaotic.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      ...

      It's not about being ruled by "your own people", it's about being ruled by people you choose and having the ability to get rid of them when you don't like them.

      Also, the concept of "..any competent others.." depends on the definition of "competent". Theocracies believe their competence comes from their god(s); militaries from the gun; technocracies from various economic theories - Keynes, Thatcherism, etc.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: ...

        However it seems a government of ravingly inadequate fools who are solely out for their own pockets and in the service of their class is what the electorate wants and they like them and they choose not to get rid of them. It's a sad state of affairs when spitfires and bunting outweigh being a modern functioning boring country where things work.

  20. redpola

    What a time to be a smuggler! We took back control of the borders we always had control over and then lost control of them.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ah.......The Perfect Storm

    (1) Fujitsu looking after CHIEF

    (2) GVMS and Agile (Quote: "...release to be a 'minimum viable product'...")

    (3) P&O

    (4) Easter holiday rush

    .....so.....absolutely no need to argue whether BREXIT had anything to do with it.....even three storm elements are quite enough to be getting on with!!!!

  22. Colin Bain

    Fujitsu

    Being that Fujitsu is on the Horizon to do IT for UK public service, I would suppose that they need the contract to pay.off the messes they have made with previous projects

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