NASA taps Lockheed Martin to build Mars parcel pickup rocket

NASA has picked Lockheed Martin Space as the developer of the Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV), one of the vehicles that will retrieve samples collected by the Perseverance rover on the Red Planet. Perseverance is equipped with a drill and 43 sample tubes. Its mission plan calls for those tubes to be filled, then left on the Martian …

[Anonymous Coward]

Might be cheaper to just ask spacex to bring some samples back. Their tentative date for a first manned mission is currently 2026.

While they're way behind on their original pre-starship estimates, given the rate they're progressing right now, I will be surprised if they don't come close to achieving this. Especially if they hit their target of an unmanned mission in 2024.

[Flocke Kroes]

Ice mining

To get back to Earth a Starship has to land (and probably devastate) an unprepared area of Mars, deploy lots of solar panels, ice mining and fuel processing equipment. Although solar panels work better near the equator the ice mining equipment needs to be much nearer one of the poles than Perseverance. The good news is that the rock storm caused by a Starship landing (or lift-off) will be a easily far enough away from Perseverance but it will be a very long walk to collect the samples.

This could be solved with a solar powered helicopter (or a flock of them if reliability is a concern) but does not address one of the key requirements of US space exploration. Certain contractors have bi-partisan support and will get funding because they spread huge amounts of money over many different states. SpaceX does not waste anything like enough money.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Ice mining

maybe one of the Boston Dynamics robots could "fetch" the samples...

[NoneSuch]

Re: Ice mining

Knowing Lockheed Martin, they'll equip any retrieval device with a pair of Hellfire missiles in case the locals get uppity.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ice mining

Well to be fair if SpaceX get a manned mission to Mars in 2026 they don't actually need to send the samples back. They can just analyse them on Mars and email the results back.

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Ice mining

The swivel-eyed SpaceX fanbois (amongst whom I do not number you) aside, does anyone really believe that getting to Mars is anything near as easy as Musk seems to think. Let's start with all that radiation, shall we?

[tony72]

Re: Ice mining

You don't have to manufacture fuel in situ though, even though that may be the long term goal. For early return missions, they will probably send tankers to Mars orbit. Then they can fuel a starship with enough propellant to land and get back to Mars orbit, then refuel it again for the trip home.

[Gordon 10]

Alternative view. Elon gets there first but accidentally crushes the sample tubes under his bootheel when doing his "One Giant step for Elon" speech.

Alternative alternative view. The Tesla Roadster crash lands on Mars smashing Perseverance to bits just before it drops the tubes off.

[bigphil9009]

I know you jest, but just to correct you slightly - Perseverance has already dropped the samples off. She's depositing them as she goes, much like an errant puppy.

[Wellyboot]

To be buried by drifting sand?

[vtcodger]

Cheaper?

It'd certainly be cheaper to ask Elon. However, it is well to remember that Musk is prone to make promises he can't/doesn't keep. e.g. Tesla battery exchange -- which looks not to be implemented for economic rather than technical reasons. Or Autopilot full self-driving that actually works well which quite possibly will be a few weeks/months away for all eternity.

Can SpaceX potentially get astronauts to Mars orbit and home again? I expect so although I'm skeptical that there is much point in doing so. Can SpaceX get astronauts to Mars surface and back to Earth? That's a LOT harder. Not any time soon I think. Can NASA collect 43 tiny rock sample tubes on Mars? Difficult. But it's doing so. Total sample mass including packaging? I don't know and can't quickly find a source to tell me. But I'd guess maybe 10kg give or take a lot. Can NASA retrieve that and get it from Mars surface to Mars orbit? Probably. It won't be easy. But probably. Can NASA then get that package back to Earth Orbit? This looks to be easier. Can NASA (or SpaceX for that matter) get the package down from Earth Orbit? For Sure.

I believe the current cost estimate to get that modest package of rock samples from Perseverance back to Earth is around $4B. It'll likely cost more. Current plan is to get the samples back in 2031 or so. Wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be optimistic.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Cheaper?

Musk's goal is to make humans a multi-planet species. The cars are partly a technological stepping stone to that goal and partly a financial stepping stone. Reality often causes Musk to change the route but not the destination. Hence the lack of battery exchange. The self-driving thing is an embarrassment. The problem is way harder then he expected. I do not know if he has admitted this to himself but he should certainly admit it publicly to get customers' expectations closer to reality before they read a book while the car drives itself hard into the back of a stopped ambulance. Self driving cars on Earth are not a requirement for colonising Mars so that will not get Musk's full attention. Self driving construction equipment on Mars is a valuable tool for colonisation and such equipment will not have the opportunity to crash into the back of an ambulance for decades.

Putting astronauts on a Starship is a requirement for colonising Mars so it will happen - eventually. Uncrewed Starships will have to land many times before they are considered safe enough for people.

Getting a Starship back from Mars by sending fuel from Earth it technically possible but expensive. You end up with a fleet of expensive empty tankers in Mars orbit. This is achievement is not required for colonising Mars so Musk will not do it unless NASA offers silly money like for Artemis.

Making fuel on Mars is a requirement for colonisation so Musk will make it happen - several years behind schedule.

Starships will bring rocks back from Mars but I doubt they will bring them back from Perseverance - unless Lockheed Martin take lessons in project management from Boeing.

[arachnoid2]

Re: Cheaper?

"You end up with a fleet of expensive empty tankers in Mars orbit."

Maybe there could be a way on landing the tankers and turning them into habitats?

[Stoneshop]

Re: Cheaper?

Maybe there could be a way on landing the tankers and turning them into habitats?

If they have a few African artisans on the first manned Mars mission they can just let the tankers crash; those guys can turn any bit of scrap metal into amazingly useful stuff.

Icon: Castle lager

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Cheaper?

Musk's goal is to make humans a multi-planet species.

Colonising Mars is a couple of orders of magnitude harder than colonising Antarctica. Let's see him do the easy one first.

[Spherical Cow]

Re: Cheaper?

"You end up with a fleet of expensive empty tankers in Mars orbit."

You don't need lots of tankers, you only need one. It delivers most of its fuel and keeps enough to get itself back to LEO. There it can be refilled and sent to Mars again, as many times as needed until there is enough fuel at Mars. Once the job is done the tanker is still available for re-use in other missions, so really you only need to pay for (lots of) fuel.

[Tams]

Geez, you Musk Bois are annoying.

SpaceX are not going to be landing a manned Mars mission in 2026. That's just not going to happen.

And while I do appreciate the effort of their innovation and success, they are also reckless. They wanted to send that Tesla crashing into Mars, with zero consideration for contamination.

Go fast and break things is give up to a point. A Mars mission, or any manned space mission is not the place for it. Hell, Starlink is starting to be troublesome as it is.

[GlenP]

The whole approach seems odd to me, having two different vehicles being designed and built by different contractors then being sent to Mars at similar times.

Surely, even if the one delivering the sample collector couldn't just hang around and wait for the return journey, at least using the same basic design/build for both would make sense in economies of scale and minimising risk.

[Dave 126]

Which two vehicles are you referring to? The ones travelling from Earth to Mars (and back)?

[Dave 126]

The craft required to get a lander (with robot and rocket) to Mars orbit would have to be much bigger than tje craft required to return the samples.

You might use a flatbed truck to deliver sampling and retrieval kit to site. The actual samples you might bring back by motorcycle, if fuel is at a premium.

[Twanky]

Flatbed

Useful analogy, thanks.

Maybe put the motorcycle on the back of the truck too?

[RichardBarrell]

Re: Flatbed

May just be down to boring engineering limits. How much payload you can put on any one rocket or how much budget you can ask for for one mission ;)

[UCAP]

Re: Flatbed

Answers: How much money do you want to pay, and how long do you want to wait for any new technology to be developed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a new idea. It dates back to the Apollo moon lander with the lunar module atop it. The lunar module was the only one that returned to orbit.

[batfink]

Don't be silly

You can't have efficiencies - what are you thinking man? That would mean narrowing the opportunities for pork-barreling and backhanders (and thank you to the USAian taxpayers who get to foot the bill).

We all know that LM in particular have a spotless record in that sort of thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

RE: two different vehicles being designed and built by different contractors

Please, please NASA make them both do design and production in the metric system.

There will be plenty of room for errors as is without adding unit conversions into the mess.

[PJD]

Eh, the lunar landings were achieved by having two different vehicles (Apollo command & service module + lunar module) designed and built by two different companies (North American Aviation and Grumman respectively) delivered to lunar orbit courtesy of a three stage launch vehicle where each of those stages were manufactured by yet another company (first stage by Boeing, second by North American Aviation, third stage by Douglas Aircraft), not to mention the engines, avionics, and other key components all being manufactured by yet another set of contractors. The only thing different about the Mars sample recovery thing is that half the mission is being done without the hardware for the second half of the mission having been designed yet (or even contractors picked..). Otherwise it's standard NASA operating procedure since at least the 1950s..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing there...

It's a lot of money for a bit of mud.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Nothing there...

You're still at this two years later? Get a life.

[Pete 2]

A lucky escape

> Mars parcel pickup rocket ... Until today, no contractor had even been appointed

If NASA was going solely on price, they might have chosen DPD.

I can just imagine, instead of sending a rocket, they would just have slipped a card under NASA's door to say that they tried to pick up the stuff from Mars, but nobody was in.

[cookieMonster]

Re: A lucky escape

We need an ‘upvote 20 times’ button

[Timbo]

Re: A lucky escape

"If NASA was going solely on price, they might have chosen DPD."

I assume you WANT to get the samples back?

If you really, really, really want the samples back I wouldn't use DPD - they have a habit of either losing parcels, or claiming that they don't have them, or that they will be delivering on a certain day, even sending an email out to confirm this...and then not turn up until it suits them on another day (which happened to me this week).

DPD = "Delay Parcel Deliveries"... ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

What, Bezos didn't sent a proposal?

About sending on one of his rockets some underpaid parcel handlers to retrieve the tubes, pack them, load them on the return vehicle and then wait there for the next delivery? I also expect a "we won't be neutral about unions on Mars!" tweet.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: What, Bezos didn't sent a proposal?

Jeff doesn't need to submit a proposal. Blue is a litigation company and can simply sue NASA for not selecting them without going to the trouble of developing any rockets capable of getting to orbit let alone Mars.

[Totally not a Cylon]

Re: What, Bezos didn't sent a proposal?

B.O. still owe Nasa some engines.....

There's probably more chance of smart life on Mars than of B.O. getting a Mars contract....

[arachnoid2]

Re: What, Bezos didn't sent a proposal?

More jobs for Martians, Go home humans, More jobs for Martians, Go home humans.

[DrStrangeLug]

Are they actually going to open them on Earth ?

I would send them to the ISS to be opened first.

Yes, there almost certainly isnt any virulant humanity wiping bacteria (or whatever) on Mars samples.

But seriously, very very tiny risk, very very big consequences.

[vtcodger]

Re: Are they actually going to open them on Earth ?

Surely, they will open the samples in a sealed chamber filled with a vacuum or an inert gas. Aside from the (miniscule) alien virus concern, opening a capsule in an Earth atmosphere environment would contaminate it with Oxygen,water vapor, diverse particulates, assorted micro-organisms and who knows what else. We've spent a whole lot of money to get a few thousand grams of Mars surface material to Earth. We'd presumably treat it with a bit of care.

[quxinot]

Re: Are they actually going to open them on Earth ?

I think the realistic fear is the final dropoff coming back to earth crashing and releasing the Andromeda strain upon us.

(Though it's not from Andromeda, the Martian strain? Invaders from Mars? I'm sure there's a suitably cheesy reference to make here!)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Are they actually going to open them on Earth ?

Contamination of samples from Earth is big worry, so they will be dealt with in extremely isolated environment (which is much easier to make on Earth than in ISS). That works both ways.

This is also why having SpaceX pick them up is not a good idea of course (even if SpaceX had reasonable chance of getting people on Mars soon.)

[Stoneshop]

Re: Are they actually going to open them on Earth ?

I would send them to the ISS to be opened first.

a) ISS is slated for decommissioning around that time, so any schedule slip in the SRL, MAV or ERO will nix that option.

b) ISS doesn't have the required gear onboard to do what you propose. Especially without human intervention.

c) Research so far shows Mars appears to be pretty well dead, biologically speaking.

[Paul Hovnanian]

Still on the drawing board

The problem I can see with delaying the pickup mission design like this:

What if it becomes evident that the sample tube design was not optimal for automated retrieval. Too slippery, funny shape, etc.

Too late to fix it now.

[Stoneshop]

Re: Still on the drawing board

Perseveranc has the manipulating thingies to handle those tubes; even if LM didn't design those, they'll definitely have gotten the drawings for the tubes from NASA, and if they ask for the drawings of the gripper I can't see NASA objecting.

[vtcodger]

Re: Still on the drawing board

My impression is that the sample tubes are -- over time -- removed from the carrier one by one, filled with a sample, capped, and put back in the carrier, Presumably what's returned to Earth is the carrier with 43 capped sample tubes, I could be wrong, If so, someone who follows this mission more closely will presumably correct me.

[Evil Auditor]

Whatever thing they'll use to return from Mars, if it isn't three-legged, I'm not interested.

[arachnoid2]

Whatever thing they'll use to return from Mars

in the middle of the 20th century, that human affairs were being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's.

[Paul Crawford]

Three breasted, surly?

[Paul Crawford]

Three breasted, surly?

[arachnoid2]

So six of one or half a dozen Beers

[Paul Crawford]

For some reason el-Reg failed to show the first post so I tried again.

Nothing to do with wanting 6 breasts to be discussed by the Legion of Commentards.

[Ian Johnston]

So basically NASA have sent a device to Mars which periodically drops a small cylindrical object behind it and they are now commissioning an interplanetary pooper-scooper to clean up.

[StrangerHereMyself]

Except

Except the Chinese will be there first and beat both NASA and ESA with returning samples from Mars. Mostly because the latter's architecture is much too complex and has to many moving parts and single-points-of-failures.

The Chinese are basically using a Martian version of their Chang'e lunar sample return architecture which consists of a lander with rover and ascend vehicle.

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$194m? It'll be twice that, as LM pump NASA to the final frontier of it's budget - they make more money when projects fail.