back to article US-China chip cold war? It's only helping the Middle Kingdom, silicon makers warn

China's cold war with the US on chips isn't slowing down the country's rapid growth in semiconductors, the Semiconductor Industry Association said this week. The US sanctions on Chinese companies didn't have the intended effect of restricting China's semiconductor industry. In fact, the saber-rattling is only serving for China …

  1. HildyJ Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Sanctions

    Sanctions rarely have the desired effect. After the fall of the US supported government in Cuba, the six decades of sanctions haven't resulted in regime change. Instead they have only strengthened the hardliners. The same happened with the four decades of sanctions in Iran that followed the overthrow of the US supported Shah.

    Looking at the Soviet Union, it was broken up not by sanctions but by economic competition while the Russian sanctions against Putin seem to have little effect.

    The US needs to take a hard look at what the effect of sanctions in China are and reassess its actions. If the sanctions had helped Taiwan (or Ukraine), or if they had helped ethnic minorities, that would be one thing. But they haven't.

    Unfortunately the Red Scare mentality is still alive and well in both parties and a reassessment is unlikely.

    1. AndrueC Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Sanctions

      This whole 'them and us' mentality is the problem. We have one planet and we're all sharing it. We're past the time when we should have grown up and stopped this squabbling over imaginary lines drawn in geography.

      1. John Jennings Silver badge

        Re: Sanctions

        That is laudable, but unfortunately would only work if it was reciprocal. Its not.

        1. AndrueC Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Sanctions

          Oh I agree. I wasn't advocating that we should start it now. I was just lamenting that we have yet to get ourselves into a position where it's possible. It's been hurting us as a species for at least half a century now and only looks to be costing us more each year that passes.

    2. StrangerHereMyself Bronze badge

      Re: Sanctions

      I would claim that sanctions are extremely effective.The total economic and social isolation of the Soviet bloc hampered their ability to gain technological parity with the West and allowed us to maintain a military advantage big enough to dissuade them from embarking on military adventures.

      Russia and China currently face no such embargoes and students and knowledge workers from those countries are still able to work and study here.

      The US is finally realizing that this needs to end in order to maintain its hegemony. China is already banned from purchasing the advanced Dutch EUV machines and this could lead to them losing more and more ground in the electronics market if the sanctions are broadened to other Chinese companies.

      Finally the West needs to stop allowing Russian and Chinese students to study here and exporting our technological know-how which could eventually be used against us.

      In the case of Russia this could be straightforward.In the case of China it's more difficult due to the enormous dependency of the West on Chinese goods and products.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sanctions

        It was not the US embargo that nobbled the Soviets, but their own embargo attitude that closed them off from the west.

        China is not shooting itself in the foot that way.

        1. ST Silver badge

          Re: Sanctions

          > China is not shooting itself in the foot that way.

          No, they're doing it in various new and innovative ways.

          > It was not the US embargo that nobbled the Soviets [ ... ]

          Buy a Cold War history book - published someplace other than Russia or China - and start reading on page 3. Assuming pages 1 and 2 are the inner cover.

          1. HildyJ Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            You obviously skipped the pages on the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan.

          2. EnviableOne Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            find a cold war history book written by someone without a bias towards one side or the other and I'll be surprised.

            The Cold war was just that, both sides were on a war footing without any actual fighting.

            Both sides rapidly developed technology and weapons that one-upped each other.

            the latest MiGs and Sukhoi aircraft are a match for the frankly failed Raptor and Lightning.

            Each side would convince you that they won the cold war, but to be fair the only ones who did were the arms dealers.

            The Russians could always be guaranteed to do what was in their own interest, but Xi is a completely different animal, under his stewardship, the PRC have surpassed the Russians and his rhetoric is about as aggressive as you can get. I have no doubt that he means what he says and his actions bear that out. what was before him a semi-capitalist country, is rapidly returning to the hardline state control, and building up its military and industrial capability.

            In the not too distant future, the western economies will be sidelined by the two behemoths from the east with populations over 1bn, China and India, that are both rapidly becoming skilled digital workforces and outputting superior products at a greater rate and lower cost.

            1. Tilda Rice

              Re: Sanctions

              LOL, not sure why you are being downvoted EnviableOne :)

      2. veti Silver badge

        Re: Sanctions

        It's far too late to talk about "maintaining US hegemony". That moment passed 20 years ago. What's left is maintaining US security, which is best done by restoring the network of alliances that Obama neglected and Trump wiped his arse on.

        China can't be "isolated" - what does it even mean to "isolate" the biggest country on earth? If they need to be completely self-sustaining in all things tech, they absolutely can do it. They've got the people.

        And they're neither stupid nor ignorant. Given a clear objective, Chinese engineers are every bit a match for their American counterparts. (Witness their significant lead in hypersonic missile technology, for instance.)

        What's still holding them back is a centralised decision making process, which prevents them from exploring many lines of investigation at all. But once they know a technology is useful - be it nanometer chip fabs, quantum computing or whatever - they can develop it for themselves.

        1. ST Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Sanctions

          > Chinese engineers are every bit a match for their American counterparts.

          Yeah. Maybe when it comes to microwave ovens or dishwashers. Otherwise, they're really not.

          > Witness their significant lead in hypersonic missile technology, for instance.

          As demonstrated by what, exactly? Propaganda videos?

          > [ ... ] quantum computing or whatever [ ... ]

          Ah, yes, China - the world leader in quantum computing. Based on copying MIPS and RISC-V designs from the US.

          Tell your boss you need a new propaganda script. This current one is too transparent and, frankly, a bit lame.

          1. FIA Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            > Chinese engineers are every bit a match for their American counterparts.

            Yeah. Maybe when it comes to microwave ovens or dishwashers. Otherwise, they're really not.

            So, you believe a group of humans on one side of a large spinning ball has a different distribution of intelligence amongst them than another group of humans at a different point on the same large spinning ball?

            Really??

            Ah, yes, China - the world leader in quantum computing. Based on copying MIPS and RISC-V designs from the US.

            Building on what came before is generally how progress works. (What that's framed as is generally how politics works. ;) )

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Sanctions

              2 people with undergrad maths degrees living in a swamp designed the ARM.

            2. ST Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: Sanctions

              > you believe a group of humans on one side of a large spinning ball has a different distribution of intelligence amongst them than another group of humans at a different point on the same large spinning ball>

              1. Intelligence has very little to do with accomplishment.

              2. Look at the documented track record, and see how far behind China still is. Have Chinese engineers been able to design and build an 80Hp 4-cylinder automobile combustion engine that can operate at USA/EU/G7 standards? Oh, they haven't? Why is that? There are plenty of EU or US designed car engines to copy from.

              3. Totalitarian regimes that impose fear and terror on their general population do not progress as quickly as liberal democracies. Fear of severe punishment - up to and including death - is not an incentive for risk-taking, be it intellectual risk or business risk.

              4. If The CCP disapproves of someone's qubit error correction design ideas, because they contradict Mao Xi Pooh's invaluable contributions to quantum mechanics, that someone's design ideas will end up nowhere. Under the best of circumstances, that someone doesn't end up being sent to a re-education camp, for failing to internalize The Party's ideological vision.

              > Building on what came before is generally how progress works.

              5. Except for the fact that, in quantum computing, nothing came before, except quantum mechanics. It's all brand new with no past implementation experience to draw on. It still has to be invented.

              6. Show me China's quantum computer. I don't care about the number of qubits. Just show me a Chinese quantum computer. Oh, there isn't one?

              1. Alumoi Silver badge

                Re: Sanctions

                Have Chinese engineers been able to design and build an 80Hp 4-cylinder automobile combustion engine that can operate at USA/EU/G7 standards? Oh, they haven't? Why is that?

                Because they don't give a flying fuck about those standards?

                Fear of severe punishment - up to and including death - is not an incentive for risk-taking, be it intellectual risk... except when said intellectual risk is required by the state.

                If The CCP disapproves of someone's qubit error correction design ideas, because they contradict Mao Xi Pooh's invaluable contributions to quantum mechanics, that someone's design ideas will end up nowhere in public. It will go to secret government labs. Just like in the free world.

                1. ST Silver badge

                  Re: Sanctions

                  > Because they don't give a flying fuck about those standards?

                  Aaaaah, yes. The I can't build it so it must not be important excuse.

                  If it's not important, why do they keep trying (and failing)?

                2. Peter Imran

                  Re: Sanctions

                  Don't blame you for your comments because you obviously have not been to anywhere, what more China. I have been to China multiple times from my little island he in South East Asia. Only thing I've to say is that the US is great in producing millions of homeless, drug addicts, gun violence deaths, military veteran suicides etc. I can go on but I feel you know the situation in the US much better than me.

                  1. ST Silver badge
                    Facepalm

                    Re: Sanctions

                    > [ ... ] you obviously have not been to anywhere, what more China.

                    And you would know that.

              2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge
                Big Brother

                Re: Intelligence has very little to do with accomplishment. @ST

                I would disagree wholeheartedly, ST, and counter with the exact opposite being true and would state that the one cannot be accomplished without the other and with oodles of the one delivering vast smidgens of the other.

                Such is surely undoubtedly misinformation and worthy of a downvote.

                1. ST Silver badge

                  Re: Intelligence has very little to do with accomplishment. @ST

                  > [ ... ] one cannot be accomplished without the other [ ... ]

                  I'll give you one counter-example: Donald J. Trump. Intelligent he is not.

              3. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: Sanctions

                >2. Look at the documented track record, and see how far behind China still is.

                So what?

                Suggest you look at where they were when Mao came to power and thus how quickly they have got their act together.

                Like it or not the odds are China will surpass the USA in the coming decade, unless the US decides to throw its toys out of the pram and nuc Bejing...

                >6. Show me China's quantum computer. I don't care about the number of qubits. Just show me a Chinese quantum computer. Oh, there isn't one?

                A Desktop Quantum Computer for Just $5,000 ...

                1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                  Re: Sanctions

                  Isn't Google's Quantum Computer Canadian

                  1. Kaufman

                    Re: Sanctions

                    I think Canada is just collaborating. In fact I'm sure that Google has reached out to all US allies to help them stay ahead of China.

                    1. ST Silver badge

                      Re: Sanctions

                      > I think Canada is just collaborating. In fact I'm sure that Google has reached out to all US allies to help them stay ahead of China.

                      You have no clue what you're talking about.

                2. ST Silver badge

                  Re: Sanctions

                  > A Desktop Quantum Computer for Just $5,000 ...

                  Here's one from Alienware: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/alienware-aurora-r13-desktop. They've been making and selling them for the past 10+ years. And it's made with alien space-age technology.

                  It's only $1,399.99.

              4. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Sanctions

                It amazes me every time someone thinks that China are far behind the US in everything when the fact is that the Chinese are in front of the US on many fronts. Let's not talked about the millions of homeless in the US as It's not part of this topic. If the Chinese are not innovative, she wouldn't have built her own Space Station something which the US can't build herself as the ISS was built by a bunch of countries. Hence we have the name International Space Station.No one said that China has Glided Hypersonic Missiles not even China but it was the Pentagon that gave the news to the World. Everything that the Chinese did must be stolen. If Western technologies were stolen for 1 year, 2 years or even 5 years, one can understand but for 40 long years since China opened herself to the world in 1978. You mean to say that the the West are so stupid to have their techs stolen for 40 long years or is it that the West are too idiotic to let those thefts happened? Those who have never been to China or perhaps believed too much from the news they hear or received that every advances that China made must be stolen. Like 5G for instance? What about landing on the dark side of the moon? What about having the most patents for 6G in the world? What about having the only quantum GPS Satellites System in the world? All these must be copied even though the West or even the US don't have it.

                1. rcxb1

                  Re: Sanctions

                  > Space Station something which the US can't build herself as the ISS was built by a bunch of countries

                  The US had its own space station in Skylab decades ago.

                  The ISS program was really designed as a Russia welfare program. It gave unemployed Russian rocket engineers something to do (other than build military systems for the highest bidder) while their economy imploded. It's a convenient excuse for the US to financially support Russia without the later losing face. After all the US is just paying for seats on Soyuz launches and funding joint developments, much like it funds a joint program with Russia to secure their nukes. The US is surely NOT sending truck loads of monetary support to Russia because it was on the verge of falling apart...

          2. Max Pyat

            Re: Sanctions

            Your comment comes across as a heady mixture of ignorance and thinly veiled racism.

            Why are you getting so insecure? Even if you are, you'd be better to try and conceal it as it rather gives the impression you've formed the opinion that the "West" is "losing" to China as things stand.

          3. IGotOut Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            "Chinese engineers are every bit a match for their American counterparts.

            Yeah. Maybe when it comes to microwave ovens or dishwashers. Otherwise, they're really not."

            NASCAR engines are still made from cast iron, that's high tech USA engineering..... Oh and just to rub it in, many made in the UK. I know, we make them in the same foundry as diesel train engines.

            Now the F1 engines, now they are something else.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Sanctions

              Hint is in the name NASCAR: as in Stock Car. NASCAR racing cars are not meant to be the cutting edge. They're meant to run at high speeds, yes, but they're also intentionally limited in various ways to encourage competition on the people end of it rather than the tech end of it.

          4. Kaufman

            Re: Sanctions

            Another great example of the classic American ignorance. No wonder they're a failed state.

        2. StrangerHereMyself Bronze badge

          Re: Sanctions

          Sure, they can be self sufficient, they've got one of the biggest markets in the world. But their isolation will rob them of money and influence and turn them into a hermit kingdom.

          The detente with China was great while it lasted, but we've come to the realization that China won't change in the way we'd like them to so it's time to turn off the tap.

          1. FIA Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            The detente with China was great while it lasted, but we've come to the realization that China won't change in the way we'd like them to so it's time to turn off the tap.

            But if we do that which countries poor levels of worker rights will we exploit for our cheap goods next??!?

            Won't someone think of the children!!

            (Typed on a Chinese designed and built keyboard, in an input box I got to by clicking using a Chinese built mouse; the details of which where hard to read, so I had to turn up my Chinese made lights, using a Chinese made button. I found out these were made in China by using my Chinese built phone to google it.

            I've not looked where the monitor is made).

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Sanctions

              >But if we do that which countries poor levels of worker rights will we exploit for our cheap goods next??!?

              The confederacy ?

            2. Alumoi Silver badge

              Re: Sanctions

              Asia is a big zone. Same as Africa and South America. Hell, there are even some Eastern European countries we can try.

          2. Max Pyat

            Re: Sanctions

            References to Hermit Kingdom like this are pure markers of racism and ignorance.

            You're also rather missing the point that China is showing no intention of isolating itself from the world, even if it does end up being cold-shouldered by the US. They are working hard on building relations across Africa and of course with a range of countries that the US has been strong-arming.

            What one can easily imagine happening next is that you'll have Chinese engineers and other workers operating at large scale in countries that the US would traditionally have considered it had carte blanche to invade/bomb. Except that will get trickier if such actions are likely to involve significant loss of Chinese life.

            It's the same reason you had British and American soldiers in Germany in cold war, and why they brought their families. So that if Soviet tanks ever did roll across the border, No. 10 and the White House wouldn't have to justify intervention purely on the basis of "our friends in Germany" but also "our troops, their wives and children are in harm's way"

          3. Little Poppet
            WTF?

            Re: Sanctions

            You're all over the place here; trying to fit in a narrative that is incorrect.

            "But their isolation will rob them of money and influence and turn them into a hermit kingdom."

            Maybe pay attention to what the Middle Kingdom has been doing for the past 40 years or so.

            Also don't conflate China's track record of non-interventionism and keeping to themselves with isolationism.

            Hint, it's the US and it's lackeys who are trying to isolate and contain China.

            "but we've come to the realization that China won't change in the way we'd like them to so it's time to turn off the tap."

            Spoken like a true Imperialist.

            "China won't change in the way we'd like them to" - To think you have the morals and right to cast judgement and punish a sovereign nation because it goes against you're own agenda is a product of entitlement and arrogance.

            As for 'turning off the tap'... that opportunity has long gone. Gone are the days when the US could bully everyone into submission. At least there is now another actor on the world stage who can balance out the US, and I think everyone agrees, this is a good thing!

          4. claimed

            Re: Sanctions

            Ah the old, "it's my football so if I can't be a striker I'm taking my ball home" technique

          5. Peter Imran

            Re: Sanctions

            How are you going to turn off the tap that despite trade barriers and tariffs from the US, trade between China and the US grew by 28% last year and China enjoys a trade surplus of $367 billion against the US. In per capita income, China is still far behind the US. But as a country, China is richer than the US with $3.6 trillion in foreign reserves and with US owing China $1.1 trillion making China total wealth at $4.7 trillions. The US have debts of almost $100 trillion consisting of foreign debts of almost $30 trillions, internal debts that consists of domestic consumers debts of $15 trillion, Corporate debts of $15 trillion, students debts of $2 trillion with rest owed by the US government to the FEDs. Like it or not, China growth is inevitable.

        3. hoola Silver badge

          Re: Sanctions

          The Chinese also think long-term, not just a year or two ahead by decades. This is what is created the powerhouse that is now China and why they are so successful.

          If something does not work, they go back, learn, refine & repeat until is does. All the things the "developed" countries used to do in the 19th/20th Centuries before short term money making on stock markets became so important.

          The only way for the West to even start to be able to regain parity on manufacturing is to move the view ahead beyond greedy shareholders, Venture Capitalist funds and politics.

          All have been completely destructive in the race for quick money.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sanctions

        I beg to differ.

        The most interesting result of the sanctions on Russia was that they became FAR more efficient in coding and the use of resources, whereas the Western world was tied up in the Intel/Microsoft cycle of wasting more and more resources on .. well, I still don't know why a word processor needs so much CPU while it's mostly waiting for me to press a key.

        As for China, Trump's sanctions have merely resulted in making it aware where the US has leverage, and it's hard to work to undo that, and as it sits on a new source of energy that the US due to political pressures has only just started to explore I suspect the US is going to be more and more about posturing - the power to actually control China was lost a good decade ago, and they know it.

        The problem with the US and others is that they still seem to arrogantly assume that smart people only live in the West. Major mistake.

      4. Rol Silver badge

        Re: Sanctions

        It's interesting that a socialist model would have one bureaucratically managed industry, churning out an homogeneous product to meet demand, with little or no choice for the consumer, while the capitalist model seeks the same lack of choice for the consumer by getting rid of the competition by any means.

        One model supplies me with what I need at cost plus a small margin, and is overseen by party officials to ensure certain standards are maintained, while the other will only be supplied to me if I am willing to contribute towards the cost of another luxury jet for the directors and accept whatever dross falls off the end of the conveyor belt, because they have already bought and paid for several politicians and a clutch of judges.

        We are all too aware of how America will about face on its mantra of free trade when it finds its own industries cannot compete, and will apply any and all measures to stifle international competition. It's like free trade is great, but only if our companies are dominant in the market.

        So my Chinese supplied router, might....and that is a really tiny and unproven might, be passing all my details onto the communist party of China, whereas the very fact I live in the "free world" means my data is most definitely being hoovered up by the self appointed custodians of the "free world". One of those parties can have a very huge influence on my life, while the other hasn't, so guess which cheap and reliable router I'd plump for, if I was allowed a choice?

        1. Tilda Rice

          Re: Sanctions

          Your missive completely ignores competition. Rides rough shod over the fact that most corps aren't this corrupt judge buying entity. Bit juvenile.

          I'm not in love with our data tracking big tech Google/ FB etc.

          But i'll take that over a regime that has covered up C19, killed its owned citizens with guns and tanks and choses what you consume on the Internet.

          The fact you think they are close or even preferable is illustration of some of the nonsense in these comments sections.

          I dare say you would feel very differently if they whisked you off to a "re-education" camp.

          Ask Jack Ma (if you can find him) boss of Alibaba what he thinks.

          1. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Sanctions

            I am not sure Jack Ma gave me a honest answear and I am not also all that convinced that perhaps Facebook & Co did not get too much power a bit too easily.

            It is complicated and there is the part built on ideology and our view on what is right, but there is also the damned reality of the reality.

            This by Richard Wolff is much about the reality:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CydroIVRT_I

            PS. I would rather share a bier with Jack Ma than with Zuck, as I think he is more of a human, but who knows.

      5. adriboca

        Re: Sanctions

        Sorry, but you do not have the slightest idea about the real effect of sanctions.

        I have grown up in a country occupied by communists, so it was affected by the Western sanctions, but in reality those did not have any effect on the technological capabilities.

        The local engineers knew perfectly well how to make anything that could be made in the US or UK, both from local research and from reverse engineering, and also from technical information provided by spies, which included even such things like complete mask sets of integrated circuits.

        Despite that, they almost never could do anything close to what their technological know-how would have permitted.

        The real reason why there was a large and continuously increasing technological disparity between the Western countries and the communist countries had nothing to do with sanctions.

        The local engineers could not make what they knew how to make because they were crippled by the parasitic communist management that infested every company and institution, which ensured that any kind of rewards or promotions had nothing to do with the quality of the work and which resisted any kind of improvements in any domain.

        The communist countries failed entirely due to internal causes, not due to any kind of external sanctions and pressures. Few actions of USA or allies had any successful influence, and that was only by indirect effects, e.g. the show played by Reagan with the Strategical Defense Initiative, which fooled the Russians into increasing their military spending even more over what they could sustain.

        1. StrangerHereMyself Bronze badge

          Re: Sanctions

          No, it's because knowledge in itself is useless if you lack the industrial infrastructure to make use of it.

          Behind the West's scientific and technological superiority is an enormous industrial and financial might that is able to utilize these advances to stay two steps ahead of the Communist bloc (and we that holds with China too, apart from the fact that it's currently less than one step ahead because we allow Chinese students in our colleges and universities).

          1. Little Poppet

            Re: Sanctions

            "No, it's because knowledge in itself is useless if you lack the industrial infrastructure to make use of it."

            You probably haven't any experience of China I see. When was the last time you lived there? They are literally the leaders in industrial infrastructure.

            "Behind the West's scientific and technological superiority is an enormous industrial and financial might"

            Clearly you've not been paying attention to what China has been doing through the past 40 years. Also, you've not read the article aswell...

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            >No, it's because knowledge in itself is useless if you lack the industrial infrastructure to make use of it.

            Japan didn't have the industrial infrastructure after WWII, however people there actually read the management and quality books and papers being published in the USA and used the knowledge to create an industrial infrastructure that made use of it.

            We saw similar in post-war Germany, where the military was put in charge of the reconstruction of industry and not western businessmen, result, this required them to read and apply western management thinking without a "self-aggrandizement" and "exploit the workers" mind set, the rest is, as they say, history...

        2. ST Silver badge

          Re: Sanctions

          > The local engineers knew perfectly well how to make anything that could be made in the US or UK, both from local research and from reverse engineering, and also from technical information provided by spies, which included even such things like complete mask sets of integrated circuits.

          Bullshit.

          I have seen VAX clones made in Eastern Europe. Both dishwashers and the fridge-sized ones.

          The designs were likely obtained by intel ops.

          The hardware itself sucked. It was unreliable and had a very high percentage of uncorrected and uncorrectable errors.

          This had nothing to do with their management. Reverse-engineering Western computer technology and developing unencumbered local Eastern Block computer technology and manufacturing was a high military priority of the Warsaw Treaty.

          They had neither the infrastructure nor the know-how to build the components. And they did not have the accumulated years of trial-and-error that were baked into the Western counterparts and know-how.

          It's not enough to steal some mask blueprints. You also need to know how to build the machines that make the chips, you need the materials and materials know-how, and you also need to know how to layout the mask. Etc.

          Access to this information was severely restricted because of sanctions and export controls. The result of the sanctions was what we all saw after the collapse of the Eastern Block: East Germany and Romania had been trying to sell shitty VAX clones to China and Cuba.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Sanctions

            And they did not have the accumulated years of trial-and-error that were baked into the Western Taiwanese counterparts and know-how.

            But the USA is going to onshore 5nm fabs by simply buying some gear from ASML and hiring some non-union labour in the state with the lowest environmental standards who offer the biggest tax break

        3. Zack Mollusc

          Re: Sanctions

          Meanwhile the UK was crippled by the parasitic capitalist management that infested every company and institution, which ensured that any kind of rewards or promotions had nothing to do with the quality of the work.

      6. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Sanctions

        @StrangerHereMyself

        I can understand there are concerns among us in the west regarding China but to be honest I am, and you should be, a lot more concerned about what has happened and is happening in the USA now and for quite some time.

        Quoting the CIA World Factbook on China we find this:

        "Measured on a purchasing power parity (PPP) basis that adjusts for price differences, China in 2017 stood as the largest economy in the world, surpassing the US in 2014 for the first time in modern history. China became the world's largest exporter in 2010, and the largest trading nation in 2013. Still, China's per capita income is below the world average.".

        And I think Dr. Michio Kaku understood what was happening already in 2011.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

        And I think there are some things to ponder about regarding the education indeed.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7lO0TlwUZw

        A rising stupid index is not a good strategy.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          Re: Sanctions

          The Newsroom also tells it like it is nowadays and how it was even a decade ago, and with no sign at all of there being any sort of improvement ..... that must be very disturbing and depressing for the natives ........ Why America is not the greatest country in the world

          Why is that? What do they struggle with and fail to come to terms with? Are they retarded? Is there something in the water they drink, the food that they eat, the pills that they take and the drugs that they pump into themselves? Is intelligence AWOL/MIA? Or is the problem denied being a current problem ..... and thus is it confirmed present and rabid and rampant?

          1. Little Poppet

            Re: Sanctions

            Perhaps it's the natural decline of an empire.

            Granted, the US land mass is sufficiently large, geographically advantageous and resource rich, however the decimation of Europe during the world wars contributed to the USA's climb to dominance.

            Now it's China's turn. However, it should be noted, that through the ages, China has always been a constant.

            1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

              Re: Sanctions

              however the decimation of Europe during the world wars contributed to the USA's climb to dominance. ..... Little Poppet

              One certainly couldn’t recommend it as a successful sustainable model and effective modus operandi strategy for any degree of public and/or popular domination without any fear and loathing accompanying eventually extremely swift and devastatingly expensive and destructive blowback and clawbacks/fundamental upheavals requiring immediate radical program adjustments.

              Only arrogant fools and ignorant tools beat the drums and fan the flames of war in desperate attempts with perverse stealings and corrupt memes to save the titanic sinking ships of a failed state.

            2. Dave 15 Silver badge

              Re: Sanctions

              The yanks are still stabbing their only allies (the stupid Brits) in the back at every available chance, just look at the steel and aluminium tariffs, they are removed for the EU (those who didnt support the yanks last illegal wars, and who - with the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and even Germans - had empires mainly before the British empire). The yanks profess to be against empires (really just the British empire it seems) despite the fact that ALL their current wealth came from it - as you say 1914-18 and 39-45)

          2. Felonmarmer

            Why America is not the greatest country in the world

            I think the main problem is because they insist that they are the greatest country in the world, with the best form of government, military, technology, health care and everything else.

            Why would they change anything if they think they are the best in every way? It seems that the main reason they believe this is lack of knowledge of what the rest of the world are doing judging by the multitude of videos on youtube and other sites where Americans react to aspects of life elsewhere.

            This is coupled with intense propaganda and education forming this viewpoint for the majority of the last century that is as insiduous as that carried out by their opponents.

            Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, other nations have advanced in all these things (excepting democratic government in many cases) and have equalled or exceeded the initial advantages the USA had post WW2.

            To paraphrase Al Murray, the rest of the world don't have an American dream, because they are awake. America is still dreaming the dream of the last century.

      7. BOFH in Training

        Re: Sanctions

        I think banning Chinese / Russian students are kind of too late, cos they have studied in US for years, and have some idea on whats the current thoughts on various topics in Academia / research facilities / etc.

        I understand the top Unis in China are pretty good now actually.

        Not only that, especially China, with it's huge population size, has a very large talent pool.

        And that population size also helps when it comes to finding a market if the rest of the world restricts their products.

        They got the money and talent. And since they are not known to respect IP, especially of those overseas, it's only a matter of time beforer they get into making decent EUV machines, etc. Then nothing will stop them from flooding the market with cheaper EUV stuff, cutting into ASML and other fabs.

        Even if fabs outside China are not allowed to buy China made EUV systems, they will be able to ramp up the number of fabs in China and make alot of cheap chips / socs, etc. And since most of the rest of the world is profit driven, expect most of the chip industry outside China to get screwed.

      8. Bruce Ordway

        Re: Sanctions

        >>stop allowing Russian and Chinese students to study here

        Ouch... there might be some areas that deserve a little more scrutiny/restrictions

        but..a wholesale stoppage seems excessive, counter-productive.

      9. Youngone Silver badge

        Re: Sanctions

        At no point was the Soviet Bloc totally economically and socially isolated from the West.

        A friend of mine worked for a print shop in Austria in the 1960's and 70's whose biggest clients were all in Hungary and the USSR.

        He used to go the both places regularly to tell them they were doing it wrong.

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Sanctions

          @Youngone

          Yes I agree.

          Here In Finland the Finnish ardent communists could fairly freely visit the Soviet Union after the war and I suppose it wasn't all that overwhelming as that party quickly shrank in Finland.

          Russians were also able to visit and do business in Finland to some extent.

          There was a time when we spoke of "koti ryssä" which means "your personal home Russian".

          Eikka a guy whose daughter I happened to marry had one, lets call him Igor.

          Igor was a nice intelligent chap and used to visit now and then and had a list of stuff he needed for Eikka.

          Once it was a new suit and so he went and bought one.

          And then he proudly presented it to Eikka who much surprised pointed out it was much too big for him.

          Igor then told Eikka it would become just perfect after one or two washes.

          Eikka told him times have changed and took him straight to a tailor to fix it.

          There are those who claim the USSR fell because of "star wars" but it did really fall from within when enough people understood it had to change.

          I think we have a problem, what if I started to think Boris & twats represent all there is about Britain and its people.

          What if I start to assume all there is regarding Americans are Trupists or all there is in Russia is Putin.

          Still that is how the game is played although the real problem is the political systems that do not work and in a way it will constantly be once again about the effort for a dictatorship with a king or similar on top.

    3. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Sanctions

      The longest existing dictatorships, North Korea, Cuba & Iran, owe their longevity to US sanctions. US sanctions make it vastly easier to isolate their populations from the rest of the world and give the regime a fig leaf of legitimacy to "protect" the population from the "enemy".

      The flip side, that having lots of exchange outside the country, especially having a lot of young people go abroad for college undermines dictatorships is dependent on the culture of the country. Worked for Shah-era Iran, for example, but not CCP-era China.

      1. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Sanctions

        We've been attacking Chinese ex-pats in the US under the "China Initiative" since 2017. Since its based on the premise that all Chinese are hive members with the one single thought to just get information for the Glory or Party and Country its naturally been a bit of a bust so the FBI has resorted to plowing through grant applications looking for any irregularity and then hyping anything they find as a Imminent Threat to National Security. This has resulted in a number of spectacularly failed prosecutions (the latest failure being a MIT engineering professor) but its also caused significant disruption to the lives of the people targeted, especially if they don't get supported by their institutions.

        This is not a good way to encourage students or immigrants.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Sanctions

          And that's the whole idea.

        2. BOFH in Training

          Re: Sanctions

          Don't forget the "Father of China Rockets"

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

          He was chased out of US by the government's paranoia and China accepted him back with wide open arms.

          Now imagine all the Chinese who are happy to be out of China who are being hounded back into China.

          China will be happy to get back all the knowledgable people. Especially since these people will be pissed at the US etc and will be happy to work for the "betterment of China".

      2. Little Poppet

        Re: Sanctions

        Fun fact, pre-pandemic: Every year, 1 billion Chinese nationals go on holiday abroad. Another fun fact, they all return home as well! Likewise, Chinese students. Go figure... :)

    4. Tilda Rice

      Re: Sanctions

      I'm very scared of what an unchecked regime could "accomplish"

      The sanctions are not selling arms to a government that massacred people in Tiananmen Square. Human rights abuses in Tibet and Ughurs. (and preventing investments in Chinese military companies)

      And sanctions against the use of critical infrastructure technology such as 5g from a regime that has the great firewall of china and is beyond intrusive / what most of us would consider be against our fundamental human rights.

      None of those sanctions seem unreasonable?

  2. martinusher Silver badge

    At last some common sense -- but will politicians listen?

    Back in the good old days, just a few short years ago, China was "one of us". OK, it was China and, yes, it was sweeping the pool with mercantilism but most of the wounds it inflicted on us (the US) were self-inflicted. We all know about the effects of off-shoring, how local industry, often starved of investment, is run down because its cheaper to procure overseas. Its a process that's been going on for decades in the US and had pretty much completed 40-50 years ago in the UK. One day, though, a well connected company that's used to the fruits of being Number One finds itself Number Two, years behind the competition, so instead of dealing with this it turns to its lobbyists and so The China Menace is born. This will meet with an enthusiastic reception in Congress and in the public at large -- after all, all many people have ever known is a world where there's some external menace ready to destroy our Way Of Life. We can now blame all our shortcomings and failings on 'them' while justifying an infinite defense budget.

    Back in real life what this has done is disturb a well oiled supply chain. China was happily being a Global Citizen because it was doing well out of the status quo (we accuse them of cheating but I think that it might have more to do their schools turning out 35,000 engineers a year). Still, the build/buy calculus for semiconductors included a lot of 'buy', they were more interested in building products with the parts than making the parts. We then disturb this with our new Cold War, not only changing the build/buy calculus to 'build' but making it personal, its now not just a commercial decision but a matter of national honor.

    You have to have monumentally arrogant politicians to think they'd bring China down. (Or monumentally stupid -- same thing.) Now we're fresh out of options. The more we abuse our soft power the less effective it becomes. Every time we show our hand, threatening to cut people off from SWIFT or denying inbound investment (or preventing investment by our target countries in our own businesses) we deal ourselves a little more damage. We're rapidly getting to the point where the only card we've got left is WW3 -- and we'd play it if we thought we could get away with it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: At last some common sense -- but will politicians listen?

      IOW you can't sanction a country willing and able to go it alone, just as there was no way to stop Iran going atomic with a yellowcake mine within its own borders...

      1. Max Pyat

        Re: At last some common sense -- but will politicians listen?

        Except they aren't going it alone. They're working hard on building up links in Africa and elsewhere.

        Meanwhile, outside countries just see the US imposing sanctions and punishing countries for essentially "getting above their station". From a third country point of view, US/UK looks a lot more threatening (and in fairness, a lot more unstable and unreliable: Iran Nuclear Deal anyone?) than China.

      2. Kaufman

        Re: At last some common sense -- but will politicians listen?

        Stopping Iran and NK from going nuclear would've been easier. If the US would've stopped traveling half way around the world and parking their carriers at their front door to intimidate them and conducting military invasion exercises with their neighbors this wouldn't have happened. Now that NK has the ability to send the US into oblivion, they've magically stopped venturing anywhere near NK. In fact, aside from some minor propaganda pieces everything has gone quiet. Which is bad for US weapons sales so don't expect it to last long.

        Ukraine will be the next victim in another US led confrontation with Russia.

  3. _LC_ Silver badge
    Alert

    Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

    “China's cold war with the US on chips”

    Last time I checked, it wasn't China that was pushing for war. This has been deliberately worded the wrong way round to make it seem like China is the culprit.

    Nice try, gooner. :-P

    1. Muppet Boss Bronze badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

      Chips are ok. I only hope there will be no China's war with the UK on crisps.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

        >Chips are ok

        But only when they are hot, cold chips...

    2. naive Silver badge

      Re: Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

      Gosh, the 50 cent army is flooding El-Reg, can't they put a geo-ip filter to stop this mud slide ?.

      Except for dumping CCP propaganda on us, they insult decent people who want to live in a country where teachers do not get arrested for telling a version of the history that the CCP doesn't approve.

      1. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

        @naive

        You are being down voted for good reasons for the "geo-ip filters".

        suppose you elaborated a bit about "telling a version of the history". What kind of history are you talking about.

      2. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Best way of determining where this is coming from is to look at the language

        Actually, I live in a country where teachers do get fired (and potentially arrested) for teaching the 'wrong' version of history. Its not the PRC, its the good old US of A.

        I suggest that you enter terms like 'CRT' and 'fired' into your preferred search engine to get a feel for the trouble not toeing the party line can cause you. Its really just the tip of the iceberg.

  4. Paul Crawford Silver badge

    Lets face it, the West (as in population & politicians) are just now realising the obvious results of all of the off-shore cheap-labour share-boosting that businesses have been doing for decades moving manufacturing there.

    China will not be stopped by sanction, they have too many smart people to get things done and sufficient resources to actually do it.

    However, the West might just get enough industry back that they are not so easily held to random by the CCP when supply chains all terminating in the middle kingdom.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      re: too many smart people

      >China will not be stopped by sanction, they have too many smart people to get things done

      Hence our cunning plan by CIA chief Mr S Baldrick.

      We parachute in lots of Harvard business school types and convince all their brightest students to become, lawyers, management consultants, and derivatives traders.

      Then we send in the 101st McKinsey consultant division to persuade them to fire all their R&D staff to pay for a stock by back.

      1. low_resolution_foxxes Silver badge

        Re: re: too many smart people

        I loved your reply far too much!

  5. xyz123

    Chinese made gpu and cpu parts have hardware-embedded backdoors for the CCP that are pretty hard to locate unless you know exactly what to trigger.

    So they'll be solely used in China, and not in any independent country such as Taiwan, Japan or the US.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      How would these be exploited across non-Chinese hardware when they're too far away to exploit over the air?

      1. DerekCurrie
        Facepalm

        √ Incorrect

        Please know what you're talking about. Chinese surveillance implants into their hardware has been proven. It obviously works via the Internet. Please don't be DUH. China: Criminal Nation. Expect the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) influence in everything Chinese. It's not paranoia. It's proven fact. So be wise and don't give China: Criminal Nation your business, your money. it's that simple and important.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: √ Incorrect

          "Please know what you're talking about. Chinese surveillance implants into their hardware has been proven."

          Do you know that you know or simply think that you know? If Chinese surveillance implants are everywhere, where's the independent evidence to support this (with links or citations)? Recall the story of surveillance tech the size of a grain of rice and they couldn't find it? If you're going to make a claim, support it when you do.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So do US & UK.Processors and communication services. There are laws to enforce it that have straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect £250 if you refuse or let anyone know you have been asked to do so. Also publicly acknowledged as they're obvious in Intel and AMD. Plus additional discovered in BMCs, most recently ARM.ILOBleed. Plus publicly realeased evidence in Snowden Wikileaks documents. All fiber backbones are tapped via a special security liaison department in BT including cable landing stations, would assume the same in the USA.

      You might be a fool, we are not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        If all these claims are true, perhaps you can cite where everything you cite exists, preferably from sources with minimal potential bias?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          There are articles on here covering cpu within cpu for Intel and AMD. Also I think the latest ILO rootkit.

          Investigatory Powers Act 2016 in UK, read it.

          It created a criminal offence for a communication service provider or someone who works for a CSP to reveal that data has been requested via a TCN.

          Search the act for technical capability notices.

          There are published docs on cablie interception and BT facilities near landing stations. Try tempora bude bt as search terms. Bletchley park must surely be on your radar, work didn't stop at the end of WW2.

          I have been in the UK Internet engineering community for 30 years, but you think what you like, it matters neither way, it doesn't keep me up at night.

          The article is an opinion piece, so is my comment.

      2. Kaufman

        That would be the PRISM program by NSA. It gives the US unrestricted access to all data from any US and friends companies. Think Google, FB, Apple, Dell, IBM(already caught spying in China and likely many other countries)........etc.

  6. T. F. M. Reader Silver badge

    Revenue

    The combined revenue of China’s CPU, GPU, and FPGA sectors was about $1bn in 2020

    Am I the only one who thinks it is not all that much?

    1. nautica Bronze badge
      Happy

      Re: Revenue

      "The combined revenue of China’s CPU, GPU, and FPGA sectors was about $1bn in 2020

      Am I the only one who thinks it is not all that much?"

      No, but you're possibly the only one who thinks that's correct.

      1. T. F. M. Reader Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Revenue

        No, but you're possibly the only one who thinks that's correct.

        I could've chosen another way to point out it probably wasn't... Glad that we agree...

  7. StargateSg7

    Now what would happen if our under-the-radar All-Canadian parent aerospace company SUDDENLY publicly released ALL of our built-up in-house inventory of almost FIVE BILLION of our FULLY ITAR-free 128-bits wide combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Array Processor processor chips running at 60 GHz using 1024 cores GaAs (Gallium Arsenide) on Aluminum Oxide Ceramic Substrate that has over 575 TeraFLOPS of performance in a stacked CISC super-chip the size of a typical slice of bathroom tile (80 mm by 80 mm)?

    We could sell them for $222 USD for server or super-workstation use since it costs us mere tens of cents to make using our 1000 x 1000 chip multi-beam electron-beam etcher (at 280 nm line traces for now!) We can make a ONE MILLION CHIPS IN A FEW HOURS and our yield is at least 97.5% since our line traces are 280 nm which for now is a base physical limit of using Gallium Arsenide substrates.

    Since we built-up a big stock of over FIVE BILLION OF THEM within the last three years, we could simply release them for public sale AT ANY TIME !!!! We even have full-size motherboards ready for immediate plug and play use and a custom 128-bit Workstation and Server Linux version ready to go on DAY-ONE of release! It would take Microsoft mere days to compile a compatible version of Windows 11 to make it work with our super-chips as we already have a a fancy C/C++ compiler ready to go that will AUTOMATICALLY THUNK 32-bit/64-bit code COMPLETELY over to 128-bit word widths! (We use an I.A. to re-do/re-factor common data formats and Windows calls over to the full 128-bits wide!)

    Sooooooo, should we release TOMORROW and OBLITERATE the major chip makers?

    We got FIVE BILLION super-chips in stock!

    We could OBLITERATE Intel, AMD, IBM, Qualcomm, ARM, TMSC, etc in mere DAYS if we release our SOC super-chips and motherboards all at once!

    V

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Sooooooo, should we release TOMORROW and OBLITERATE the major chip makers? @StargateSg7

      Yes, please ... if you can. No, if you can’t .... but thanks for all of the phish.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      El Reg's woo-woo/pseudo-engineering whacko is in the house.

      1. StargateSg7

        Said using 1970's Elvis Presley voice: Thank you, Thank You, Lets go all "A Little Less Conversation" and whole lot more "All Shook Up" and make this a very "Blue Christmas" for Intel, AMD, IBM, ARM, TMSC, Qualcomm, Samsung, etc, etc

        AND YES the whack-job is BAAAAAACK !!!!

        The 128-bit Super-Chips ARE IN THE HOUSE !!!!

        Soooooooooo, ...... LET'S GET READY TO RUMMMMMMMMMBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!

        V

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Tell me. WHY do we need 128-bit computin?. 64-bit computing made sense as memory started exceeding 2 and then 4GB since 64 bits were needed then to preserve the flat memory model. But now that we have it, we're not likely to actually use all 64 bits for some time yet: a decade at least, maybe two, even if we merge memory with storage as predicted. Besides, there's a tradeoff. More bits mean more processing overhead, meaning more power consumption, and efficiency is becoming more of an issue these days.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Don't worry. There is no such thing. Mr stargate just needs to go back on his meds.

          2. StargateSg7

            When you are doing 3D-XYZ Array Elements that are massive in size such as:

            RGBA_Pixels_Array = [ 0...999999999 ] of [ X: 0..65535, Y: 0..65535, Z: 0..65535 ] of

            RGBA_64_Bit_Pixel_Type

            So you are dealing array sizes that EXCEED 64-bits in size so I need 128 bits types PLUS we use

            128 bit wide FIXED-POINT data types where we use 64 bits for the integer portion and 64 bits for the fractional portion.

            In our OWN experiences we have an Aerospace Platform (low Earth Orbit) that can image at 4 cm per pixel RAW and when you image the ENTIRE land-mass of the Earth, 64 bits is NOWHERE enough to image all of the Earth and index those pixel-based tiles within a Database, so we use 128-bit wide numbers. That means our internal eggheads (and ME who did the GPU SOBEL/CANNY accelerator portion!) created a custom inhouse-designed and etched GaAs CISC-based combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Array Processor that is used in our super-workstations and supercomputers.

            Not to brag too much, but our Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada underground warehouse supercomputer facility IS the actual fastest supercomputer in the world at 119 ExaFLOPS SUSTAINED using 128-bits wide 60 GHz CPU arrays.

            Right now it is running a physics-based electro-chemical simulation (i.e. K, Na, P-gating) of human neural tissue which uses HUGE 3D-XYZ arrays of records containing weighted values and range limits for general electro-chemical bonds and gating which were "GROWN" (i.e. iterated) into a functional neural net that pretty much has a 160 IQ of Artificial General Intelligence that is conversant in 20 languages AND has done much scientific research and development for the parent company's benefit!

            The system runs in real time and is basically a FUNCTIONAL HUMAN BRAIN (i.e. Whole Brain Emulation) at a Ph.D+ level of educational and experience AND it's getting SMARTER by the day!

            When our MASSIVE underground Northern British Columbia facility comes online which uses even MORE FANCY 2 THz Opto-Electronic combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Array Processors that will have Yotta-FLOPS of computational power, it will transform our WBE into a TRUE super-intelligence because then it can run at speeds FAR in excess of any real-world human neural tissue!

            Our company is literally TOP-OF-THE-HEAP in CPU-design and manufacture, BLOWING AWAY what Intel, AMD, IBM, ARM, Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Huawei, etc can do! We are literally the WORLD'S LARGEST CPU CHIP AND SRAM/DRAM MEMORY MANUFACTURER ..... BUT .... you have NEVER heard of us and we are COMPLETELY under-the-radar!

            Sooooooo, I may SOUND like a total whack-job .... BUT ..... the proof is in the digital pudding which I see and eat almost EVERY DAY !!!

            V

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              "Our company is literally TOP-OF-THE-HEAP in CPU-design and manufacture, BLOWING AWAY what Intel, AMD, IBM, ARM, Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Huawei, etc can do! We are literally the WORLD'S LARGEST CPU CHIP AND SRAM/DRAM MEMORY MANUFACTURER ..... BUT .... you have NEVER heard of us and we are COMPLETELY under-the-radar!"

              Liar.

              1. StargateSg7

                Intel and AMD did NOT manufacture FIVE BILLION+ Super-CPU/GPU/DSP chips in three years ---- WE DID !!!

                I would say that makes us NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD of CPU chip manufacturing, not to mention the ENORMOUS amount of SRAM and DRAM we have manufactured in our Vancouver and Northern British Columbia manufacturing facilities.

                Yup! We're actually Numero Uno In The World for processor chip and memory chip manufacturing!

                V

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Have you checked your nose lately, Pinocchio?

                  Otherwise, you'd either (a) be public knowledge for one reason or another or (b) not be telling about it at all because you're actually part of a black project (that refuses to acknowledge its very existence and enforces it).

                  PS. Anyone considered a Pinocchio icon?

                  1. StargateSg7

                    Oooohhhhh !!! Not a bad guess !!! You're pretty close --- NOT QUITE but close enough!

                    In a past life we did have TS:SCI and Q's for WH:WW access just so ya know! I've been IN the OO with RR/CW/GB!

                    In this case though it's because the project itself is CORPORATE BLACK rather than MilSpec-Black meaning we are under a corporate/commercial level of in-house security, basically the same as what Apple does but in Canada.

                    YUP! We STILL made FIVE BILLION Super-CPU/GPU/DSP/VPA chips and ungodly amounts or SRAM and DRAM storage in the last three years so YUP we ARE NUMERO UNO in the world for chip manufacturing!

                    v

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  It appears you've already been banned from Reddit for your BS...

                  1. StargateSg7

                    I seem to be banned from a LOT of places lately but no matter! I'm getting a bit of a decent equity payout soon so Reddit won't be around much longer once I go online with a few software thingamagigs brewed up by me, the internal company eggheads AND that fancy 160 IQ WBE we're running!

                    You'll see soon enough . . . . . . . .

                    V

                    P.S. I almost BOUGHT all of ATS .... just so you know !!! But I let it go! Still banned from it though!

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Total Gibberish.

                      1. StargateSg7

                        What's gibberish about it?

                        We are an under-the-radar all-Canadian Aerospace company that makes fully-ITAR-free 128-bits wide 60 GHz GaAs combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector-Array-Processor super-chips AND SRAM-DRAM storage systems for high performance super-workstations, servers and supercomputers.

                        We have been doing this a loooooooooong time and MANY of our technology patents have been seeded and hidden by us within multiple worldwide corporations.

                        As an example, we also have designed and manufactured ENTIRELY IN-HOUSE powerful 64-bit RGBA imaging and GIS platforms including 16K resolution cinema cameras, high-performance space-rated optical-grade acrylic lens technology with multi-axis rheological stabilization and adaptive optics technology that lets us image down to 4 cm per pixel while the USA's NRO KH satellites require extra software processing to get down to 10-to-15 cm per pixel!

                        We also have in-house high-speed fully-autonomous and ROV HALE drone technology AND a 148,000 lbs SSTO spaceplane for large-device in-orbit deliver up to GeoSync (and beyond!) orbits that uses unusual/esoteric propulsion mechanisms.

                        Then I should add in our Non-Eigenspace (N-Space) exploration systems and non-aerodynamics-based device/personnel transport systems AND add in the trapped-Xenon nano-well based quantum-teleportation data communications systems which use the entanglement and the collapse/de-coherence of trapped Xenon atoms to "read and write" byte-based data across any distance at Petabytes per second data rates.

                        We were the FIRST to get around the problem of "Setting" and "Getting" actual data bits out of entangled sets of Xenon atom pairs trapped within a quantum well AND we were ALSO the first researchers to actually reliably entangle and decohere a set of Xenon atoms within quantum wells that had no other known association or nearby placement with ANOTHER set of long-distance-away Xenon atoms trapped within quantum wells. This made the VERY FIRST reliable and FAST quantum communications-based client/server/router/switch system.

                        Sooooooo, I would say that NOTHING we do is rubbish! It's all VERY VERY REAL and it's coming VERY SOON to a public forum near you!

                        V

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          VERY VERY real WooWoo word SALAD.

                          1. StargateSg7

                            Can't help it that I have to be somewhat circumspect in my postings BUT in reality, you are NOT the audience here! Those of who who are IN THE KNOW actually DO UNDERSTAND of what I speak and I am just giving them a heads up and to take my written and verbal espousings SERIOUSLY --- I am TELLING Y'ALL what is happening on a technological basis!

                            Just because I SOUND INSANE doesn't mean it's not true.

                            I am TELLING those who have ears and mind as to what WILL be shown within mere months!

                            Just because my writings sound deranged and outrageous..... you could ALSO take the OTHER viewpoint of: What if I am telling the truth?

                            V

    3. batfink Silver badge

      It's always nice when amanfrommars1 makes more sense than another poster...

  8. B83

    Betamax v VHS

    Some great comments and retorts but I'm not going to wade in.

    For my simple mind its a bit like Betamax v VHS. Two formats that did the same thing but were incompatible.

    Ultimately China will go there way and the West the other way. Both doing the same thing with different tech.

    The question is will there be a winner, we won't finder in any of our life times. History will be the only one to tell and even then its amazing how history keeps changing.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Once Upon a Time, in the Lands of the Eternal Optimist and Pragmatic Ethereal Realist ....

      Ultimately China will go there way and the West the other way. Both doing the same thing with different tech.

      The question is will there be a winner, we won't finder in any of our life times. History will be the only one to tell and even then its amazing how history keeps changing. .... B83

      Oh???? Is it not, ...... as we learn ever quicker so much more than was ever able to be presented so easily and freely before, and realise all that can be much better and more simply done in the future rather than being stuck in the present which relies on the blunt tools of the past, ...... much more likely to be a case of shortly, rather than ultimately and eventually, will East and West experiment and go their separate ways doing different great things with similar mind-blowing technology creating worthy winners for crowning from a vast field of previously serious serial losers?

      If you have any money or wealth to gamble, don't bet against the latter not comprehensively trouncing the former and being a welcome global standard default condition with myriad Novel Code Red positions.

      1. B83
        Happy

        Re: Once Upon a Time, in the Lands of the Eternal Optimist and Pragmatic Ethereal Realist ....

        Thanks, no-one ever called me a Pragmatic Ethereal Realist.

        1. snowpages
          Big Brother

          Re: Once Upon a Time, in the Lands of the Eternal Optimist and Pragmatic Ethereal Realist ....

          I think you will find that is still the case (if you mean a human)..

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't care who makes or where the best "stuff" is made;

    As long as I can buy it to make my life the best it can be.

    All you nationalists, supremacists and colonialists belong in the 19 century.

    As for sanctions; they only work for a short time, until the sanctioned find a way to bypass them, then you're in an even worse place than where you started.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The US leading the way make's me laugh.

    I suppose Huawei stole all the 5G tech from American companies and then patented it before the dumb-ass American's realized what was happening.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The US leading the way make's me laugh.

      Just following the highly successful Qualcomm model for 3G?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The US leading the way make's me laugh.

        >Just following the highly successful Qualcomm model for 3G?

        No, not as successful.

        If memory serves me correctly Qualcomm couldn't conclusively point to a single patent of theirs that was used by 3G, they just shouted the loudest, because how dare those pesky European's agree a Standard (rather than let 'the market' slug it out) which contained no US (ie. Qualcomm) IP, and got the ear of the White House...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    STEM Graduates

    4.7M in China

    568K in USA

    Estamated growth in grads by 2030

    300% China

    30% USA

    Now what were you crowing about earlier?

    1. Little Poppet

      Re: STEM Graduates

      It's simple mathematics.

      Now the US and UK are crying about the inevitable.

      (Maybe go make some more babies or something....)

      1. AndrueC Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: STEM Graduates

        (Maybe go make some more babies or something....)

        China isn't so good at doing that either. That was inevitable really, just following the usual process of human development. It's why overpopulation is probably a temporary problem and that underpopulation could be the next thing for us to worry about. It's already causing demographic headaches.

      2. Dave 15 Silver badge

        Re: STEM Graduates

        Wrong answer.

        Even today we design a lot of stuff, including chips.

        It is the fact that ALL western countries ENCOURAGE their companies to offshore the production to China. We have vastly expensive capital (mainly because the overheated housing markets are gobbling up the investment cash), we have vastly expensive energy (because we are wasting money on windmills and solar panels instead of creating some fuel from air plants in the deserts), we have a ridiculous lack of tariffs on imported products and components while China keeps it currency cheap, burns coal for cheap power, has slave labour, cheap land and very cheap capital from the government.

        We NEED to fix this or we will end up with China literally ruling the entire world, and it is going to happen pretty damned soon because if we are honest their population is too huge to stop, our weapons all require stuf f only them make!

  12. DerekCurrie
    Facepalm

    Don't Give China:Criminal Nation Money!

    Feeding China: Criminal Nation is a form of national suicide. Stop it already. They've been documented to have been hacking the world since 1998. That includes spying, surveillance, stealing identities, stealing intellectual property, influencing governments and companies.... It's the entire litany of national crimes against the world.

    So stop giving China money. Obviously. Stop the usual Short-Term Thinking, Long-Term Disaster. That disaster is here and now! Notice it! Stop it!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't Give China:Criminal Nation Money!

      They've been documented to have been hacking the world since 1998. That includes spying, surveillance, stealing identities, stealing intellectual property, influencing governments and companies.... It's the entire litany of national crimes against the world.

      Wait, are we now talking about China or the US? CIA et al have been meddling in internation affairs and killing people for decades.

      The problem with such accusations is the need to be without sins before you start throwing stones.

      1. Dave 15 Silver badge

        Re: Don't Give China:Criminal Nation Money

        All of them are.

        But we have ALL been guilty of closing our manufacturing and sending it to China. Hell in the UK we dont make knives, forks, spoons, cups, saucers, plates, pans, pots, toys... never mind chips.

        What we discovered in ww1 and ww2 is that you need manufacturing in order to make munitions for a war. We realised in the Falklands that if we stopped the Argies getting missiles they couldnt make we would stop their ability to sink our ships. Now turn that round, We cant defend against China invading Taiwan, we dont make the kit needed any more, not even the uniforms for the soldiers and sailors. When they decide that Taiwan isnt enough and they want Japan and onwards then we are really b****d arent we? Dont think it wont happen, it will Already countries darent even name Taiwan because the Chinese will stop buying their coal (Australia) or stop shipping them goods... its happening already folk!

    2. You aint sin me, roit Silver badge
      Pirate

      Hacking the world since 1998?

      So they are Johnny-come-latelys...

  13. Kaufman

    Good for China. This is another great example of the US shooting themselves in the foot, again. Within a matter of months after the US has sanctioned China with preventing them from procuring equipment to fabricate the amount of new Chinese semiconductor conductor companies have tripled. I'll give Intel, Nvidia and AMD about 15 years max before collapsing. Of course that will include everything else related except perhaps chip design. Hard to imagine what comes after 3nm.

  14. Dave 15 Silver badge

    When....

    When will governments in the 'west' realise that if they dont PREVENT their companies off shoring production to China then China is going to rule the world within the next 10 years. FFKS we cant make ANYTHING today without China, either components or finished products. It is NOT a sensible idea.

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