tl;dr Microsoft says fuck you devs.
Microsoft under fire again from open-source .NET devs: Hot Reload feature pulled for sake of Visual Studio sales
Microsoft has enraged the open-source .NET community by removing flagship functionality from open-source .NET to bolster the appeal of Visual Studio, not least against its cross-platform cousin Visual Studio Code. The two key pieces in this latest unrest are this pull request in the open-source .NET SDK repository on GitHub, …
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Friday 22nd October 2021 22:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
Well, so the obvious has finally been established on a very consistent pattern.
They did not really change. They just realized that there's no cloud service without open source support.
Now, same goes for most of the other cloud behemoths, so whatever. It's not like Google's AOSP or Chromium are really that committed to openness, or Amazon's forks entirely born out of a thirst for some good old Extend, Embrace, Extinguish, are due to their absolute commitment to the cause.
Still, if anyone out there expected anything other than tacit acknowledgement, they are sure to be disappointed now.
As they should. Hopefully that'll bring awareness to the ones naive enough to waste their time contributing to these project.
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Saturday 23rd October 2021 00:41 GMT Peter-Waterman1
Same old Msft
Satya Nadella was rising in the ranks during the Ballmer era, in fact, he was a senior exec. When he took over as the man, they polished him up, branded him as the all-new face of the new, softer, Microsoft. The reality is the culture is the same as it always has been, focused on keeping their Windows monopoly protected at the expense of their customers while pretending they are the good guys. Just look at what licencing changes they are pushing recently - removing MSDN rights from other clouds, removing Windows Bring your own licence from other clouds, changing SQL licencing on other clouds, stopping you run office on other clouds, increasing SPLA licencing costs for other clouds. Now they are starting to renege on their promise of open-source...Same old Microsoft and more fool you if you believe their PR bullshit.
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Sunday 24th October 2021 02:53 GMT IamAProton
Re: correct me if I'm wrong...
I remember it was working in VB6. Hit a breakpoint, fix the code, keep going.
They reintroduced it years ago, but I've never been able to use it (= the 'out of the box experience' sucks).
Now I hit a breakpoint, I forget debugger iss running, I change the code, VS asks me if I want to edit or stop, I say, "Edit, why not?" and It doesn't work so I restart the debugger.
That's with the .net framework that works (not the core), I assume in the .net core is equally bad.
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Saturday 23rd October 2021 23:42 GMT F.Domestica
One of the "fun" things about dealing with Microsquish is that they're really bad at getting everyone to agree ob a shared strategy. I have seen situations where, eg, the rep from the browser group was working hard to promote an idea while the rep from the database group was apparently there to throw up roadblocks. A coherent message and consistent policy may be too much to hope for at any moment, never mind from week to week. Ditto learning from past mistakes; that too requires that they talk to each other (if not to the developers).
So this doesn't _have_ to be malicious. But that doesn't make it much less of an issue.
I am using .net right now under protest, because the tooling I want to use is biased toward it. Otherwise, especially given that it seems to be "cast in Jello", I'd have continued to avoid/ignore it.
Dot NOT?
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Sunday 24th October 2021 02:48 GMT IamAProton
We made a mistake in executing on our decision [because we thought we could get away with it]
I'm developing in the MS world for more than a decade.
Usually with MS the "development experience" has always been good. I understand they are a business and they have to keep getting new devs on board; in the past it was basic/access/vb, everybody is a developer! (and we are still paying the price now, just look at what kind of garbage software is running in any sizeable company), recently they shifted into the opensource-(nothing wrong with it)-hipster-kids-pleasing mode and the whole .net core has been very disappointing. Version after version with breaking changes, even between 'point' releases. And what's worse is that everybody seems super excited to jump on it, like a new update for an app, doesn't matter if it's objectively worse.
I've managed to stay almost entirely out of it (still have to deal with application written by others...) and still targeting .net 4.8 if I'm sure the application is going to be needed for just few years. Good job MS.
The .net framework is(was?) good to build applications quickly, without getting lost into managing memory and other tedious things and so far it worked well,
I don't care if it's 10% slower than C++. One of its winning features was consistency: I've updated dozens of applications going through version after version without an issue, now try to update .net core 2.0 to 2.1 or, god forbid, 3.1. A fucking headache, worse then the infamous DLL-hell.
I am a "MS developer" but I use Linux since few years. I'm loyal to stuff-that-works; If MS manages to piss off the new kids that feels manly because they have to use command line (because the tooling is missing) it could be a problem in the long run.
PostgreSQL? Never thought about it since recently. Now it's running on my dev pc ;-)
As a senior developer (=my opinion matters when company has to spend money, in case MS is reading) I am trying not to get too tied to MS (avoid all the cloudy MS specific things).
I recommend them to get their shit together quickly before it's too late.
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Sunday 24th October 2021 08:11 GMT chuBb.
Unsurprised at the climb down, my gut always said it would be reinstated in the 2022.1 update because they learnt lessons from shipping ef migrations without a ui.. . The whole justification sounded much more like "can't schedule a working ui before rtm" than "mwahahahaha suckers premium feature only" truth is probably between those two though. Still a lot of 90s bulmerites in senior roles in redmond
As for all the hoo Haa it's just young bloods finding out ms's lipservice to Foss is just that, and they will be first to complain about a "janky workflow" with initial release. Then be shocked to discover ms build is its own dsl, and its always quicker to write a batch file and invoke it during build than to let vs handle it...
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Sunday 24th October 2021 15:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
"Hot Reload feature pulled for sake of Visual Studio sales"
Except for the fact that they give away the community edition of Visual Studio for free, and the code has already been merged back into dotnet watch. But that doesn't make a great story I guess, much better to just bash Microsoft...
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Sunday 24th October 2021 15:55 GMT Anonymous Coward
Huh? What just happened?
I think chuBb got it about right. We're seeing a lot of this "can't schedule...blah blah blah". "Resource constraints". etc. Same bs justification Mozilla gave for yanking the rug out from under PWAs in desktop Firefox. Still, as chu writes, there are those in Redmond who still think "embrace, extend, extinguish" was a fine strategy and so bear watching. In this case it looks like the reaction of the community was both rapid enough and loud enough to prevent Microsoft from "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".
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Monday 25th October 2021 05:53 GMT amanfromMars 1
The real terror Microsoft is really worried about ....... and probably quite a few others too
A denial from Microsoft will not change the shape and the flavour and the course of future developers event horizons which wrest leading control leverage out of the cold cruel hands of parasitic corporations and wannabe authoritarians ....
In the very near future will that be somewhat reversed with Cloud developers presenting to ARM/silicon partners virtual requirements for chip designs to execute proprietary intellectual property via coded instruction sets which realise in a certain universally acceptable order, a very specific pre-ordained result. ....... https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2021/10/18/arms_virtual_hardware/#c_4351591
