Microsoft's problem child, Windows 11, is here. Will you run it? Can you run it? Do you even WANT to run it? Microsoft has launched a new operating system today, but whether you'll be able to run it is open to question. As is if you'll want to run it. The Redmond-based Windows flinger has a problematic history with Windows releases. The century opened with Windows XP, shipped in 2001, which seemed OK. Then came Vista, in 2007, which …
I don't have to run it because I've retired.
So far, I've been able to do everything I need to do on an IPad.
But, I've got an HP laptop with Windows 7 on which I'll be installing a new OS - if anyone has some pointers on which distrib would be easiest for an exWindows guy.
Agreed. Mint is a distro that helps make the transition to Linux with some ease.
As a long-time Windows user (since Windows 286, yikes!), I find the interface intuitive and it is not overly difficult to get where I want to go.
I still need some training, but my retirement is a decade from now, so it'll have to wait.
Don't know a lot about Mint/Cinnamon, but KDE has served me well as a desktop for many years, is available on most if not all distros, and is at its best yet IMO.
10 years ago KDE 4 was a bit of a "duff release" i'll grant, but its successor has really made up for that.
"KDE Connect" is awesome for integrating with my phone. Dolphin file manager does everything a file manager needs to. Settings are easy to find and very useful/powerful - it's as customisable as a desktop should be without being confusing for new users. My Bluetooth mouse "just works". Even my work VPN "just works", after setting it up via the networking widget.
It doesn't crash, it doesn't get in the way, it does everything I need, and I can trust it to work for me and not somebody else*.
Most things that I need for work are available natively for Linux e.g. Chrome, LibreOffice, Slack, Teams, VSCode - And of course, these days we can run even those Windows apps and games without a Linux version on Linux via Wine and Steam's Proton. Basically everything that I need as a computer user.
* Here I am referring to all of the evil 'provisioning' antifeatures in Windows, Android, iOS etc that are designed to give someone else (your employer, your software/hardware vendor and any advertisers who pay them, your state.. etc) surveillance and control over what you think and do.
I'm typing this on Mint. Its fast, usable and reliable. It doesn't hog the processor. The system can also boot Windows 10 but if I use it the thing takes a long time to boot, it monopolizes the system as its scanning, downloading and generally carrying on (with the processor fan, usually off with Linus, churning away like mad).
Before I changed the hard disk for a SSD and partitioned it I used to bring Mint up off a USB drive. It was still faster than Windows.
I've been using Microsoft's products off an on since DOS 2.1 (that includes very early versions of Windows). I still think that Windows 2000 was the only really usable version of Windows. (POSIX compatible as well -- what were they thinking?)
XP was my favorite.
I'm perplexed why MS feels it has to change the UI with new versions and frustrate their users.
Fix the bugs, make it secure, add new functionality - but leave the UI alone. If they made cars, they'd think it brilliant to make the gas pedal a knob on the dash and the brakes a crank on the door.
Yeah, that one was an utter chunk of trash. And I didn't like the 2019 300 rental car with the puck either.
I hate to admit it, but I had foot on brake and hit the "engine off" button when I stopped at the hotel, with intention of setting park brake (I'm used to stick shift, 5 sticks in the stable now), and it actuated a motor to rotate the thing into park, shut off engine, started beeping and bleeping, and threw up some castigations on screen.
So at least now, there's some sort of safety involved, but it's still idiotic.
As a very long-term computer and networking consultant who occasionally builds and/or upgrades data centers for a living, I can assure you that the last thing I want to see in my not very copious free time is yet another PEE CEE.
Games should be played outdoors, on grass. It's good for the soul ... which nobody ever said about computer gaming.
Felt covered slate is a valid substitute for grass, archery or darts also work nicely.
You can configure SteamPlay (aka "Proton", a per-game customised version of Wine) to try to play ALL windows games. not just officially-supported ones.
For almost everything I've tried, it works flawlessly.
GTFO works. DOOM works. Even VR games like The Forest and Dead Effect work.
Steam on Linux is pretty good. I tend to mainly play strategy games like Civilisation V or Stellaris, or sandbox games like Kerbal Space Program; first-person shooters/adventure games aren't my cup of tea. My main disappointment is that few of the Total War series of games will run on Linux.
Aside from Steam there is also free software called PlayOnLinux which puts a reasonably user-friendly UI on Wine, which allows one to run Windows software on Linux - maybe. See WineHQ website for a list ofWindows software that users have been able to get to work on Linux, and how well (or badly) it runs via Wine. Wine can require a fair bit of messing about to get programs running if you try using it directly, though; unless you like tweaking things to get stuff to run well (I don't!), I'd stick with Steam or Play on Linux.
pointers on which distrib would be easiest
Mint
Debian
ElementOs
Mint is more windows centric
And element more ios centric
Both are a lot less hassle than m$ os's and can be set up to your prefrences, are great for starting out, or if you just want an os to run your olde laptop
I've been using Debian for 20 years (that makes me feel old, but i'm 36), and I somewhat agree, somewhat disagree.
Debian is *perfect* for a beginner provided they have someone experienced and patient enough to show them the ropes (as I did, and then did for other people)
But for a beginner who is on their own, or with nothing but internet forums, it can be a bit scary/frustrating.
It kind of assumes you know what you are doing. But if you DO know what you are doing or have a friend who does, then it is the most powerful and useful distro out there by far.
Whereas other distros try to force you down a certain path, which experienced users might decide they don't want to go down.
(e.g. 'snap' is the most ghastly thing ever invented. seriously wtf)
"(e.g. 'snap' is the most ghastly thing ever invented. seriously wtf)"
I'd say religion was the most ghastly thing ever invented.
As far as computing junk is concerned, snap is bad, but far from the worst. The systemd-cancer comes to mind. So does Apple keeping everything in a sandbox controlled by Apple, now emulated by all and sundry. To say nothing of the over-riding idea that people don't actually own the hardware that they purchase .... THAT is evil incarnate.
I think snap is actually worse than systemd.
Every application is mounted by the Kernel in its own squashfs. If you run `df` on a bare Ubuntu install of their latest version, you'll find it comes with about 15 mounted 'filesystems', one for each of the stock Snap apps that Ubuntu comes with, each with their own copy of all the system libraries, and a bizarre interface to the rest of the system. In fact it is just like the app-sandboxing evils of Apple that you cite, but coming to a Linux desktop near you.
It's supposed to be for security, but the very idea that you are bypasing root priveleges and handing a potentially untrusted squashfs image to kernelspace is just.. bonkers imo
And at least systemd actually has a USE, for a desktop/laptop user. It does make certain things easier. (I agree on servers it's totally backwards and often downright dangerous)
Also, without organised religion there would be no civilisation. So religion had a use too. But now we have civilisation I agree religion is obsolete. Still not as bad as snap though ;)
Start with Mint, and once comfortable consider Manjaro for a bit more power and bleeding edge features. Steam takes a lot of the hassle out of compatibility tools like Wine or Lutris (via Proton) too. I like mint a lot, though for someone that likes to dabble the Arch AUR functionality is very accessible. Perhaps the oddest part of the transition is the move away from .exe or .MSI installers in favour of package managers of one flavour or another.
AMD graphics instead of Nvidia tend to make life easier in my experience too. But you will hear a thousand arguments for and against Nvidia versus AMD on Linux.
I recently installed Mint 19.1 XFCE on a pair of Eee PC 701s, one of which has whole 2GB of RAM in it. Web browsing is a bit relaxed and video chat is unusable but Mint works fine otherwise. Mozilla based browsers still run on this hardware and 19.1 will be supported for a couple more years.
Remind me again, why is it so hard for MS to support hardware a third of the age of my trusty netbook?
So many distro's but for very good NVidia support I would recommend POP-OS (Ubuntu based) from System76, I have it on 3 Gaming laptops. Once installed if you want a more Win 7 GUI you can install the cinnamon desktop GUI by typing in the following in the terminal "sudo apt-get install cinnamon" press enter and enter your password then reboot, bottom right is a settings option to choose your GUI - select Cinnamon - away you go.
I've been running ubuntu for quite a few months now. Initially I loved its plug-n-play and nice look.
My problem is that snaps and network storage don't seem to play nicely. Its seriously irritating to have parts of your filesystem just not be available.
I get the concept and I like it. Its just too hard to manage.
"if anyone has some pointers on which distrib would be easiest for an exWindows guy."
I love all these people telling you that you should run their pet distro of choice. How the fuck would they know? They have absolutely no idea how you intend to use your computer.
The correct answer is "I don't know. What software do you intend to run, how do you intend to use the computer, how computer literate are you, and how far are you willing to dive into a new OS?".
I switched MeDearOldMum and Dad to Slackware the week that Dad retired. Dad started using computers in the 1950s. He dove into Linux (and later BSD) so deep all you could see was arse & elbows for several months. When he finally came up for air, he knew exactly what he wanted, specced out and built a machine for himself, and is still using THAT SAME BOX around 20 years later[0]. It is Slackware based, because he could see the utility of being able to pick my brain occasionally. The household file & print server and the alarm system and household mechanicals run BSD, as does the internet-facing stand-alone firewall.
Me DearOldMum, on the other hand, runs a cut-down version of Slackware, designed by me, specifically for her needs. It's essentially bone-stock Slackware-stable with a desktop that just has the bits & bobs that she needs day to day easily available to her. Dad is her first line of support, and I haven't been needed for probably ten years. I run her system updates remotely, after testing them out here. I also keep an eye on the logs & etc. Takes me almost no time (I batch it with my Wife & Great Aunt's upgrades ... they use the same basic subset of Slackware), and it's one less thing for Dad to worry about.
So it depends ... What are you going to do with it?
[0] He was speccing out a new machine when the Covid parts shortage hit. Today he says he probably isn't going to bother upgrading hardware after all. We'll see :-)
My career was in IT in a number of different roles, so I'm relatively comfortable diving in to a new OS, hunting down drivers to make everything work, etc.
Now I would just be using it for email, browsing and office suite type programs, so apps shouldn't be a problem.
But a Windowstype UI would make things easier. I think I'll try out Mint. And if I don't like it - I can always try another one.
Many thanks for all the answers.
Just so you know, you probably won't have issues with drivers. That's mostly a Windows thing these days. Exceptions are for extremely obsolete equipment (and even then, Linux may surprise you!), and for bleeding edge equipment, which everyone has trouble with.
Contrary to popular opinionFUD, printers have mostly been a non-issue on Linux for about 20 years, thanks in large part to CUPS.
One last comment ... There is an old adage in the Linux world that goes something like "If you want to learn $DISTRO, run $DISTRO. If you want to learn Linux, run Slackware." ... One gives you the skills to use any distro out there. The other gives you the skills to use $DISTRO.
Enjoy experimenting, regardless of what you settle on. This round's on me.
My Mint 20.2 system (homebuild) supports an HP laser printer, Canon Pixma inkjet, and an Epson V600 scanner, all running seamlessly together, with a wireless internet connection as well. Linux drivers for all these devices are provided by the manufacturer, and are perfectly good for day to day use with existing Linux software such as Simple Scan or Xsane. Yes, Vuescan is excellent and I have added it too - but I also used it with Windows back in the dark ages because MS on it's own did not cut the mustard, as well as the very useful Turboprint, which I have also carried forward into Linux. Don't let ANYONE tell you that Linux systems are unusable or difficult to work with - if I can do this without any formal training or "technical support", at nearly 80, anyone can. I use all this for extensive real WORK in my local community, not just as a hobby project.
In fact, IMHO, it has proved much easier to do all this in a Linux environment than it ever was under MS. With the added advantages of FOSS, far superior stability and the delightfully quick and simple (compared to MS) Linux update system - no borks or BSDs.
Happy (elderly) bunny.
jake wrote "They have absolutely no idea how you intend to use your computer."
Imhotep wrote "So far, I've been able to do everything I need to do on an IPad."
I think that gave us a little clue.
Your point about needing to know the user's needs was a good one, but these days any one of the popular Linux distros will get the job done, and many of the unpopular ones will get it done as well. For a non-IT and non-engineer type, there will be a little bending of the desktop to the user's preferences, and a little bending of the user to the distro's *way* of doing things, after they meet in the middle things generally work out okay. The biggest stumbling block for long-time Windows users is getting them to stop thinking, "who moved my cheese?"
The problem with the more corporate Linux distributions are just that ... they are corporate. Some of them have almost exactly the same problems as Microsoft, and for exactly the same reasons. I'm squinting at you, Canonical ... and derivatives. Producing kitchensinkware in an attempt to be all things to all people does nothing but make the system entirely too big and bloated and difficult to redirect into the direction you want to travel.
But if that's what floats your boat, feel free. Just be aware that your hand is being held, and you are being sheltered from the guts of the thing, which can never be good considering that to all intents and purposes you are your own sysadmin.
I'm very similar but I'll be keeping my W7 machines.
As others I'd recommend Linux Mint Cinnamon - v20 at least. I tried several times with earlier releases to install on an "Bing" ultraportable and failed - version 20 handled the thing effortlessly. Runs a bit faster than W10 and the BIIIIG plus is I haven't yet had an update that's taken more than 10 minutes to install.
Kubuntu. 20.04 Long Term Support. Watch out if your Windows 7 laptop is using UEFI instead of old-fashioned BIOS, you should be able to find advice online. I haven't kept Windows on hardware I've bought secondhand for years, and I'd never choose a new system now with a Windows pre-installed. Check before you jump that your printer will work.
Icon because you should take off and nuke Windows from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. While you're up there feel free to nuke Office 365 and everything Microsoft. I may have to use it for work but I would not miss it.
You're a good man chivo243. I'm with you. Not leaving just yet, but, will be in the not too distant future. Microsoft thinks we are all just hamsters to be put in a wheel. What a wasted life dealing with Microsoft products. Think of all the hours people have wasted installing Windows updates on their buggy authoritarian software.
If you get hold of Microsoft's Media Creation Tool, you can put Windows 10 on it - assuming that your version of Windows 7 is legit - free of charge.
I'm currently using an 11-year-old Compaq-branded (!) HP laptop that was running Windows 7 until April of this year and it's now running Windows 10 21H1. Yes, it's a bit slow, but it was slow anyway under Windows 7 and it's fine for checking my work webmail, light surfing of news sites, etc. More importantly, it's back to having a fully-supported OS.
Surprisingly, this laptop does not meet the criteria for Windows 11. I wonder why... ;-)
--More importantly, it's back to having a fully-supported OS.--
I always wonder about this bit. My W7 isn't supported but then when I bought this machine back in the dim and distant past (2017) I wiped it, reinstalled W7 configured as I want it and turned updates off. I've never had support from MS so .....
I may decide to NOT renew my MSDN subscription (in about 3 weeks it expires) over this. I am VERY angry about their incompatibility with virtualbox, and I will *NOT* purchase new hardware JUST to run it. I had to replace my 14 year old "spare workstation" recently and it cost me over $300 in new parts to do it. Granted it's twice as fast with twice the RAM but still... SOME of us can't just toss money into a hole any time Micros~1 WHIMS it. And remember "Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers" at the 1993 PDC in Anaheim when Ballmer did the ape-walk around the stage??? He must have been LYING.
Developers NEED TO RUN THIS IN A VM and *NOT* *BUY* *NEW* *SPECIAL* *HARDWARE* *JUST* *BECAUSE* *YOU* *CAPRICIOUSLY* ***WHIMMED*** *IT*, Micros~1 !!!
I rarely do windows development anyway. I'm seriously considering fetching as many license keys and images as I'm allowed (and have bandwidth for) and be done with it, if you're gonna be THIS way about it.
NOTE: my old spare workstation had FreeBSD on it. I put a new motherboard, RAM, and CPU (Ryzen) into a smaller, lighter case, with new power supply, same hard drive, same DVD ROM drive, same NVidia video card, and it booted up without issue. Was an old Intel Core Quad CPU. Yeah, you can actually put the drive into a new box and boot it. UNLIKE WINDOWS WHICH WILL MOST LIKELY HARASS YOU AND MAKE YOU GET ANOTHER ACTIVATION OR SOMETHING.
*ahem* - I think I'm done ranting over this, now...
Thats one thing that is not talked about much, yes you can put your Linux drive into any other X86 (64 bit) PC/Laptop and it will boot up, without screaming about needing activation BS. Assuming it is using the same GPU Vendor (AMD or NVidia). Just curious if your new Win 11 M/B dies how will you be able to access you data assuming you are Joe Public with next to no knowledge of Windows ?
..and you will get patches until at least 2029 with a fixed release of Windows 10. That is long enough to completely skip Windows 11 since MS is clearly cutting cycles from 10 years to 5 for their consumer desktop releases.
By then, Linux will hopefully have caught up on the Wayland and Pipewire side of things and Proton/Wine/Crossover will be “as fast as” Windows in a lot of cases.
I *had* to install it because I'm on the Insiders Track, or whatever they call it... Why am I on the Indsiders track? Because I use WSL, which tbh works pretty damn well, apart from a datetime sync issue which they fixed on insiders a while back. But basically, because of that requirement, I was forced to migrate to Win11, and... well, it seems fine (well it would on my MS Surface 4 Laptop...), apart from the taskbar icons being centre-aligned (really?) and the start menu transforming into... whatever it is. I like the way you can right-click on a file and Copy Path, instead of going right-click, properties, security tab, select. It's alright, come on in, the water's lovely... if you've got a shit-hot laptop... :/
I'm kind of shocked to respond to this, but I'm sitting here in South Korea running essentially the same distro I've been running since about 2005 - except it used to be called Mandrake, then became Mandriva, then was taken over (rather neatly I thought) by Mageia, and here I am some sixteen years later running my system with virtually no changes since then in terms of cli usage; running the latest version of KDE supported by the system but with a choice of others. But it has been 64 bit all of the way.
I chose KDE because when I tried Mandrake for the first time, back in 1999 (version 7.0), I was struck by how ugly GNOME seemed to be. Fast forward to about 2004, new system built here, installed XP, then remembered Mandrake, downloaded the community distro for 10.0, split the drive, seriously never looked back. The day I finally deleted XP from all of my systems was one of my happiest! Plus, if the mobo dies, no headaches getting "permission" to install a new one - just reconnect the hard drive(s) and away you go!
It's wonderful to be able to come home after suffering Win7/10 at work all day and forget them as I ease back into Mageia. It never gets in my way. My advice: go to Mageia's download page and give the LiveDVD a try.
I've been testing it on VMs this morning (clean install from ISO), and can report the following:
- It doesn't seem to enforce CPU compliance, and will install on older CPUs (ten year old Xeon in this case)
- It does enforce TPM. Won't install without a TPM. Not had chance to see what happens yet with TPM 1.2 - need to find a physical machine for that
- Not sure yet whehter it enforces Secure Boot
I did a fresh install on my old Toshiba Tecra mobile workstation which has an i7-4600U (iirc) in it, a 4 series, well below the 8 series cut off.
It's installed fine, and runs perfectly fine (the unit has 32gb ram and a quadro with a few gb of vram, so it's still a good spec for a 2013 machine) BUT it won't stay that way, I got a warning that I won't get any more updates now the testing is done as the machine doesn't meet the requirements to run the OS it's perfectly running and I should instead re-install another OS.
Bit annoyed as I'll have to re-install apps and reconfigure for the "downgrade" to win10, but I guess that's what you get for beta running OS's, would've been nice to have an auto downgrade to win10 (or, not even have to bother at all as the machine runs the OS perfectly fine and I'd happily leave it that way if I were getting updates).
End of the day, it's more the same, things are moved around (for no real reason) and there's a new lick of paint, but it's still the same core than was in 10 (that was in 8, that was in 7...) by the feel of it, there's no real push to rush out and pay for it, I'll take a free update as that means longer support, but I'm not buying a licence and certainly not a new machine for it.
Not that I think any machine in the house could meet the requirements anyway, my four desktops (and the bucket of spare parts I could probably build an entire system out of) are all ITX so not sure they have TPM modules (usually cut for space - the Asus ROG Strix B550-I I'm writing this on shows nothing when I run "tpm.msc", though I guess I'd have to check bios incase it's disabled - [edit], it is listed under Asus's compatible boards, so maybe off in bios), my Intel NUC under the telly is almost as old as the Tecra mobile workstation so the i5 in that won't make the grade, I have a new laptop on order but again don't recall the mention of a TPM module (its also a rather compact design, so they may not have to save the space, like the ITX boards) and neither of my other two laptops have new enough CPU's.
But they're all perfectly functional systems and not getting upgraded any time soon given they're all perfectly fine at the jobs they do, so I guess I've got five years of win10 and just jump to 12 by the time I get around to upgrading.
I have advised my client base not to upgrade, due mainly to the right click menu being messed about. Stupid light blue icons for cut / copy / paste etc more clicks to do the same task.
But (and forgive my ignorance), if a graphics card has direct access to storage, how long will it before that's a vector for attack? I can see 'cryptolocking' fake games appearing that kills your system and windows will not know anything about it. (If I understood what I read correctly)
My home laptop, a i7 4th gen HP business laptop won't run it due the age of processor and lack of TPM 2.0. (only TPM 1.2 here)
After the Win10 support runs out in 4 years, it remains to be seen whether my 2014 model is still in operation. The battery is down to 15 minutes, the left touchpad mouse button is barely functional as are some keys. Fingerprint scanner kicked the bucket last year.
All of these I can replace, but I'm wary of buying a battery that has probably sat on a shelf for several years. Also, spending a couple hundred to replace the keyboard, touchpad assembly and the battery doesn't strike me as wise investment anyway.
>> "Where are you shopping that requires you to spend a couple of hundred on a keyboard and touchpad?? They should be waaaay cheaper than that."
You've missed that I listed the battery in the grocery list as well. My keyboard has the optional backlighting so it's more expensive than regular.
I've worked for an HP service/retailer - I know the prices. There are 3rd party batteries available and they wouldn't be any better/worse than originals; but the keyboard and touchpad assembly are only available from HP. And they're never really discounted.
I switched in 2016 due to Win 10 like many did, now more will switch due to Win 11 but many more will switch after SteamDeck raises peoples awareness of Linux and Game playing. What many don't realise is that MS wants to force everyone into the MS store (all home users require a MS account) and then at some later date MS will use its bitdefender etc to say ah, this program has not been verified by MS so you cannot run it, if you choose to ignore this warning, no more updates etc !
I have a Surface Pro currently running Windows 11. It's a nice laptop/tablet but the keyboard is too close to the bottom of the screen for it to make any sense having the start button there. With Windows 10 I've always docked it to the right.
Looks like I'll be going back to 10 when the beta expires.
when a close relative's laptop (old Sony Vaio, still good IMBO) was having serious performance problems and probably needed a new hard drive, I put Devuan on a new hard drive on it, copying as many of the files and settings that I could. It WAS running Vista, and now, Devuan. Performance boost was IMMEDIATELY noticeable.
Since then NO major problems nor complaints. The learning curve was short, under an hour. I dare Win-10-nic or "Windows II" to be as easy.
Another Devuan user here. It runs on everything from an eeePC901 to a Raspberry Pi 4B
The last version of Windows I used was 95 - I utterly detested it and as soon as I no longer needed it for work, dropped back to RISC OS on the Archimedes series until Linux distros were sufficiently stable for general use.
This suits me fine, but there really is a distro for everyone, as shown by the other comentards here
Digging through settings during trouble-shooting feels quite like digital-archeology sometimes.
Well, I guess that's what they call technical debt.
Icon: that's my archeology coat. When I managed to get a proper hat, I will feel like Digital Indiana Jones in the Temple of Settings & Controls Doom
One of the things that drives me nuts with the current Windows OS versions is where you make configuration changes and there is no confirmation. You click the stupid slider thing or whatever and then just the back arrow.
I know it is something to get used to but I much prefer on system gumpf to have a positive confirmation/cancel.
At least then you absolutely know that pressing "Cancel" returns it to the existing configuration.
Microsoft will never provide a clean and consistent Windows <pick a version number> because too much of their tech is built on massive creaking towers of legacy bullshit that no one remembers why it's there or if it's safe to remove.
I just had the good fortune to dig into some samba logs and try and work out why some (but not all) of our Windows 10 machines won't mount a particular network share. The actual answer still eludes me, but in my digging I discovered that a clean install of Windows 10 when you "net use" sends this to the server:
Requested protocol [PC NETWORK PROGRAM 1.0]
Requested protocol [LANMAN1.0]
Requested protocol [Windows for Workgroups 3.1a]
Requested protocol [LM1.2X002]
Requested protocol [LANMAN2.1]
Requested protocol [NT LM 0.12]
Requested protocol [SMB 2.002]
Requested protocol [SMB 2.???]
Yep. Windows for Workgroups is only the third oldest protocol it attempts to negotiate.
That's a clean install. Of Windows 10. I will bet real money right now that if I did the same thing from Windows 11 it would also try to invoke a network protocol that was deprecated over quarter of a century ago.
By contrast, doing the same thing from a OS11 Mac starts the negotiation at NTLM 0.12 - which frankly is still silly, but is at least better.
Windows gets used because businesses are stuck to their legacy applications. So Windows has to support those. Indefinitely.
Sucks to be in that spot, I'm pretty sure of they cut out 2/3 of the code that's only there for these old things we would see fewer breakage on patch Tuesday.
(and I care sweet f.a. having no Windows machine of my own - the company one is not my problem)
I'm just waiting for them to offer a subscription based "Microsoft Linux <insert marketing approved name> - Certified to run all your business critical applications turbocharged with the reliablity and security of OpenSource, <insert any current management buzzspeak i.e. blockchain, cloud etc etc>"
Which in essence will likely be based on Debian or RHEL with a microsoft translation layer built in
An ancient network share at Deficiency House only supports the SMB1 protocol. To get a Windows 10 machine to connect to it, the following steps were necessary:
get-windowsoptionalfeature -online -featurename smb1protocol in Windows PowerShell;enable-windowsoptionalfeature -online -featurename smb1protocol in Windows PowerShell, and cleanly restart the Windows 10 machine to complete its enabling.Note that security is lessened when running Windows 10 with SMB1 support enabled. To disable SMB1 support under Windows 10 after a previous enabling, run disable-windowsoptionalfeature -online -featurename smb1protocol in Windows PowerShell, and cleanly restart the Windows 10 machine to complete its disabling.
"An ancient network share at Deficiency House only supports the SMB1 protocol."
But does it support non-SMB protocols? I ran into that a few Debian/Devuan generations ago. Then I realised it also supported FTP. KDE's network share mechanism supports that. Maybe Window's does too.
I agree, 'Settings' should be NUKED FROM HIGH ORBIT (see icon) and have its ashes shot into the sun. Then there will be only ONE.
A classic (in a Windows XP/7 kinda way) Control Panel (especially with 3D Skeuomorphic controls) is preferred to that ELDRITCH ABOMINATION 'Settings' Crapp.
(who me? complain?)
Can you move the taskbar to the side of the screen?
No.
It would totally make sense, as the screen is much wider than tall.
Alas, no longer. All for being a cheap mac knockoff, with that stupid task bar menu thingy (ok, I don't like it, I actually hate the looks of it, but that's my taste, so gerroffmelawn!).
Let's be honest, if it were "possible", people would have moved away from Windows long ago.But you do have 4 years in which to make that choice. You don't have to choose now, stay on Win10 until 2025 during which time it is fuly supported by Microsoft.So for those that have not moved, will you choose to run Windows 11? Microsoft says, "you have NO choice."
It's been possible to move to Linux or FreeBSD or Mac for a long time now if you don't have apps that you need windows for, e.g. if you have to use MS Office rather than, say, LibreOffice, or IE/Edge rather than Firefox. Or games.
Sure, a techie or enthusiast might be able to work out virtualisation or emulation (wine, etc.) or dual-booting for their windows apps, but most people don't want that hassle, even if it's not that much of a hassle these days, it's still a hassle.
Many people don't 'need' those Windows-only apps, they just think they do for various reasons, such as afraid of change, marketing, or just not being technically literate so say things like "send me a word document" and think there is no other way, that you have to have word for word-processing, or Excel for spreadsheets etc. That's not their fault, as a computer to them is just a tool, like a hammer, pick it up and it should just work, and they know who to use it by rote, not because they know the process behind it works.
Also, Linux is easier to use today than it was 5 years ago and 5 years before that and 5 years before that. Therefore if someone looked into Linux 10 years ago, I can totally understand them being scared off forever. But the Linux of today - if you use a newer or desktop friendly distro - is not the Linux of 10 years ago (or even 5).
Non-enthusiasts and non-techies need a reason to change. If you've just bumbled along with windows, why change if there's no pressing need to? Most peole aren't going to change to just have a look, that's too much work, they usually don't have other computers they can use to experiment with. For them, experimenting means using their current computer to experiment with, and if it doesn't work out, having to revert (again, non-techie, so booting from a USB without installing probably doesn't occur to them, etc.) back to windows is then a pain a the waste of a week or two.
But for some people, changes to Windows 11 may give them that reason. But for many, it won't. But just because they don't have that reason, doesn't mean Linux or other OSes couldn't do what they want, the inertia is just too big, the learning curve isn't actually very big if you use a windows-like distro, but why bother with ANY learning curve when the windows you have now works fine?
My personal position is I use Windows 10 for desktop/gaming, and Linux (Gentoo) for a NAS/server I have. I am planning on sticking with Win10 for the foreseeable future, as I don't see any advantages to me of Win11. I currently have an AMD 3700X and X570 motherboard (which I got in 2017 with an 1800X), which I am planning on replacing with a complete new build (not upgrading, already done that with the CPU and GPU once) when prices become sane again (so unlikely before the 2nd half of 2022, if then), at which point I can experiment with Linux on this new, second computer while still having my current computer to use for actually doing things while I work out if I can game on Linux with Proton. Everything else I do I can already do on Linux, it's just the gaming element that has had me dragging my feet. If that doesn't work out, I can put Windows 11 on it. But whatever I do, it's not a decision I have to make for 1 (best case) to 2 years.
it's going to be a long time before i'll have any reason to use windows 11. i only boot into windows for a couple of specific things, which is music production, and software for flashing firmware on various devices. i use linux mint for everything else. i expect i won't even see a computer running windows 11 until someone brings me one to fix.
It'll be the fill 5 years for me, my 2 year PC does not comply with TP2.0
The five years of stated support suggests that MS is uncertain regarding the rate and volume of upgraders, so they have time and space to back pedal, and/or revamp bits of 11. If uptake improves they will shorten the support time and if it doesn't, expect to see an 11.1 or a 12.0 going by past performances.
My next bit of kit will definitely be whatever the current flavour of Mint is when I buy it.
Windows 10 will be supported until sometime in 2025 and I am betting that at that stage there will still be more Win 10 users than Win 11. Win 7 reached EOL at the beginning of 2020 and in August this year still had 16% of the Windows users. On that basis I figure I am good on Win 10 until the end of the decade.
Did it? After all these years it still looks "unfinished". It is usable - for some meaning of usable - but I won't call it a pretty good platform. It runs Windows application so when you can forget the OS it's not a problem - but many administration tasks became cumbersome because of the fixation with "touch controls" and "simplified window" and never really improved. Betting that more and more use just fire up a browser and forget the rest. Unluckily, that's true only in the empty heads of Microsoft marketdroids and executives.
People moved to it only because 7 support ended. Otherwise they would see a large number of users still using it.
> Windows 10, which has evolved into a pretty good platform over the years.
Not been my experience. I thought they were follow the second law of thermodynamics and were granularly falling apart at the seams.
A few years back I bought a nice sleek i7 powered "ultrabook" or what ever the format is called. Sure beat carting a mobile workstation around with me - requirements had changed.
When I bought it everything worked, well for a given value of worked, we are talking about Windows here.
First they screwed up the disk encryption stuff. Most updates required decrypting the disk, do the update, then encrypt it all again. Fine, switched to MS' solution.
Then after a while updates would start to break other stuff.
DHCP then starts to play up, usually it works but every now and then it sulks. I can see the DHCP packets on the network, but it just ignores them. I can often go to a different Wi-Fi network hanging off the same DHCP server and it will work.
Then the finger print reader for logins. That stopped working. The driver works fine and if I go into the screens in set up to reconfigure the login settings it uses the finger print reader to validate me. Just refuses to do it for logins.
Next it decided it wasn't going to connect to the mobile network, The SIM works fine, but no it won't connect nor will it tell me why not.
So, no I don't feel it is evolving into a good platform, rather it is gaining entropy, atrophying, or like me, just getting old.
Oh, and don't get me onto bloody updates
I run older kit that is quite capable of running Windows 11 but not shiny enough to be supported. Linux doesn't care so that is what I run on it with Win10 confined to a VM. I would bet that if 6 months from now the Windows 11 adoption rate is in single digits, MS will release Win 11.1 that will magically be more backward compatible (and start forcing upgrades from Win 10.)
The following methods should stop a Windows 10 installation being converted to Windows 11
1) Disable Secure Boot in the BIOS - W11 requires it, W10 does not care
2) Disable TPM if you do not use it (Bitlocker and some other programs require it)
3) Use Linux instead !!
Systems with older CPUs should be safe from W11 but M$ might add support sometime in the future
One wonders if a pedant should be able to get away with starting a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. We refuse to stoop to the level of pointing out the obvious lack of proper sentence structure, extremely poor punctuation, and missing capitalization.
I have a much simpler method thanks to an odd option from my ISP
In the ISP-supplied router there is a 'think of the children' option where I can restrict internet access for defined IP Addresses/Machine names. I run my Win10 in a VM with it's own IP Address which can only connect to the internet between 04:15 and 04:30 when by a stroke of sanity I am tucked up in bed getting some well-earned sleep.
My Linux host runs perfectly with full internet access, my Win10 VM does what it is told whilst being restricted to the local network whenever I launch it to run Windows only software and I have no worries that an update will creep in behind my back
Not technically off topic but general question. I am curious about windows 11 but I am more leaning towards linux these days, I mainly game however and using steam on linux there are very few actual games. Im curious if its a viable alternative now, if wine or similar is much easier to set up than it used to be.
Grab a spare SSD of say 128gb, Download POP-OS from System76 choosing NVidia GPU or non-NVidia GPU, put the iso onto a USB, replace said SSD with whats in your current system, boot USB in the usual way either EFI or BIOS and install, Complete the user and password setup, set your time/location ignore most other stuff. When installing get it to do updates while installing. Now you have a working Linux system, goto the pop-shop and and install Steam - enter your current details - Steam doesnt care what you use, all games are allowed to be played on all platforms with your account. Before installing any games goto setting and enable Steamplay for all supported titles. Goto protondb.com to check if its ok in Proton which is Steam play and what version is best for a particular game you own. If you have a large game library then you can install onto a second disk or use a decent sizes one (1TB) in the first place.
Mr Panay (Mr MS) said the team had learned from Windows 8, which got rid of the start menu entirely, upsetting many users.
"You learn from that, of course, and then you adapt," he said.
"You get this confidence of learning from history," he added.
For Windows 11, "the Start button is right there. It's right in the middle of the screen. It's not gone."
Confidence of learning from history: It's right in the middle of the screen
Your PC will need a minimum of
- 1 Ghz CPU yes, if you want to do your computing at the speed of an anemic snail
- 4 GB of RAM yes, but that's just for loading Windows, if you want to actually use it, you'll need at least 4 more
- 64 GB storage yes, for loading Windows - you'll need another 500GB for the updates, then you'll need another disk for the files you actually work with
And besides, who today sells a 64GB disk ? If you buy an HDD, the minimum on sale is 300GB. For an SSD, it's 120GB.
I am aware that there are a lot of people who just read email and surf YouTube. They can do that on a tablet. If you're buying a PC or a laptop, it's because you have stuff to do on it and, in that case, 4GB of RAM is just asking for the pain.
Who wants to surf Youtube on a crapoy littlle tablet?
I mostly use my pc now for email, surfing and writing, I also do a bit of photography and occasionally want edit a couple of pics.
None of those things do I want do on a tablet, I have two that live in a cupboard so that I have something to travel with, but I hate touch screens, even though I use my phone a lot.
"You can do that on a tablet."
Getting rid of the iPad (eventually getting rid of all Apple), I wanted a tablet with Linux, but as I understand it the touchscreen wouldn't work. So for a "tablet" I just bought an ASUS L210 with exactly 1GHz CPU, 4G RAM, 64 GB SSD. With a Celeron processor and no TPM it doesn't meet the other W11 requirements, but for me Linux was the point anyway. It works great for tablet tasks - email, web browsing, taking notes. Right-clicking with the trackpad is a little fussy. An actual keyboard has both pluses and minuses.
It's not just me. Check out popularity on Amazon, this is one of their top sellers -- although if they are keeping Windows 10 then they bought a three-legged dog. I nuked the W10 partitions, MX Linux needed only about 6 GB, it's not like I will be putting gcc on this thing, so 64 GB is plenty. CPU and RAM are great as well, under Linux. :)
No.
No.
F*** NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm one of the cantankerous old b???ards who left the Rubbish From Redmond behind years ago. The last iteration of the virus masquerading as an OS that I dealt with was Windoze 7 ( forced upon me by the final employer before retirement ) and then, no more than absolutely necessary.
I rode the RedHat/CentOS train for years ( through version 5 ) and when that went EOL moved over to Linux Mint. My computers come out of recycle bins and such ( eBay at times ) and do everything that I want while leaving the hassle and pain behind.
Of course, YMMV, but if you don't look you won't see the alternatives.
I’m not really a hardcore windows guy. Tried Mac about 10 years ago.. didn’t get on with it and bare metal installed windows ;-) but I just keep soldiering on because it’s convenient.
Well… it’s no longer convenient. Printing buggered. Start menu buggered. Guess what a raspberry pi found my printer right out of the box and the menus are in the right place!
My corporate pc is win10 and only 2 years old but won’t run win11… and my gaming rig is a unlocked i7 2600k which can keep up with most modern pcs… but ms dictate it’s too old.
It’s almost time to move to Linux.. as soon as steam works properly and I can be bothered to get out of OneDrive…
Question:
Microsoft's problem child, Windows 11, is here.
Will you run it? Can you run it? Do you even WANT to run it?
Answer(s):
No.
No.
No.
Thank you for your time !!! :)
Please do ask the same questions when Window 12 comes around ... as it surely will !!!
enjoy your new windows 11 upgrade. whether you want your PC upgraded or not
Because once the initial bugs of the roll out have been tested on the beta users sorry those that have compatable computers, then the hardware requirements will be relaxed and the dialog will appear that says
"Do you want your computer upgraded to windows 11?"
And you click yes, it installs windows 11, you click no, it installs windows 11 , you click on the close dialog button, it installs windows 11. you use the task manager to shut down the dialog , it installs windows 11
And then your 7 million pound MRI scanner is rendered useless as the driver software was written for windows 10....
I have enough crap from windows 10 and playing the "hide the setting dialog" game the UI designers played without having to go through it all again.
Glad I run linux mint on the other PC... the one used for serious work and not games like my win10 box
Shame on you Microsoft. Windows 11 will indeed, create 1 billion PC's of landfill crud, for absolutely no reason.
Contrary to the misinformaton put out last month, Microsoft have indeed, put in place last minute 'hard blocks' to prevent an update on older hardware, that doesn't meet specifications. for installs attempted from an ISO/Media Creation Tool Image.
Having tested this, this morning. Out the box, the Windows 11 ISO released on 05/10/20 blocks installs on older hardware when running setup from Windows 10, using a mounted ISO and when booting the USB Bootable version of the Windows 11 ISO, to attempt a fresh install.
Folks, Microsoft doesn't want you installing this without buying a new PC, that much is clear. Windows and older macs has become nothing but hassle/tedious process in terms of upgrading. So many bloody hoops to jump through for absolutely no reason, to get a new and shiny user interface that offers the end user nothing in terms of real world productiviely.
The only way this abusive relationship will change, is if there is a mass movement/consensus to jump ship to Linux, Linux is good enough "to the do the drudge", without the hassle. Linux biggest problem is the lack of advertising/marketing budget to match Microsoft/Apple to get that message out that it can.
But for those in the industry, it's time we did.
Enough of these abusive relationships.
Agree 100%, sadly its the non-techie people out there that will dictate to everyone else what will be used because those are the people that dont touch anything in setting and just use as is, use the default browser, user the default search engine, think back to Internet Explorer it was CR@P but it was the most dominant browser ! Same will happen with Win 11. But just maybe Steam Deck can change this even if only just a little !
Or just give them a perfectly worded template letter, on how to oppose their local council's proposed new landfill site at the end of their garden, to accomodate the 1 billion+ PC's destined for landfill as a by product of Windows 11.
That would certainly be 'hit home' and be more useful than a new Windows 11 PC will ever be to them, over what they use already 'to do the drudge', because that's all Windows is good for today, 'drudge'. The same 'drudge' that was done with XP, Win7, Win8.1 and Win10, all of which can be done with Linux using the same MS condemned hardware destined for landfill. giving it a new lease of life.
Show them that using artificial contraints aka. to sell 'new and shiny' has consequences.
I have a small local only computer bus.
Have mentioned Windows 11 to many customers. Not a single one is interested in trying it. Especially when i tell them how the hardware requirements have changed. Still have 4 years of Windows 10. By then several said they will have switched to a different operating system.
I switched to what was a very immature Linux (SuSE 5.1) in late 1997, and went dual-OS for a while. In 2001, I opted out of windoze altogether - staying with Linux ever since. I've had to test software on all versions of windoze and Mac OS as well, but I use Linux to get work done. There is just no need for W11, and from what I've seen from the insider testing I've been running for a few months, it's a total mess. There is no compelling new feature that makes it a "must-have" upgrade, and the TPM 2.0 requirement is a positive disadvantage. Even the so-called gaming focus is a lie, with performance dropping quite a bit in many cases.
Even if they do get it secured with TPM, it'll still likely be vulnerable to a malicious GIF or font file. Windows needs to go away.
I ditched M$ after Win 7 was dispatched. I got tired of the GUI shuffle for no effect, Updates that were well useful, etc. Then considering that 80% of my business is now done thru a Browser, well it just did not see worth the effort to continue the OS chase. Moved to Linux Mint XFCE and have been running ever since. Things just work, updates on my schedule, etc.
... That maybe Microsoft has been sending a message and users keep ignoring it?
Programmer: "There I moved this over there, and the copy paste is borked."
Project Lead: "Great!"
Programmer: "You think this will make users quit?"
Project Lead: "Hope so. Ever since we flushed the Desktop unit they cut our support budget."
Seriously folks, Microsoft does not want to be in the desktop business anymore and it shows.
Windows 10 was never finished, and still lacks the cohesive design of 7. Microsoft have just been going from fail to fail after 7, in my opinion.
11 looks awful, and the limitations are artificial and astounding. Their reasons are also terrible "clock will crash more often" - are you telling me that after all these years, you can't write a simple clock application that won't crash?
That says a lot more about them than the hardware.
I'm running various builds fo Windows 11 on two laptops and a desktop. No problems, after a couple of months now, the GUI changes are enjoyable. I especially like the new context menus and you can still get the old context menu by selecting "more choices" in the new menu.
It's snappier and cleaner for me than my Win 10 installs were.
No problems....go Microsoft!
It'll never fly.
I've just started looking around for a new laptop for the wife (around £500-£600).
Basically nothing in this price bracket I've found so far has TPM at all, let alone TPM 2.0.
So regardless of the processor they won't be running Windows 11.
So yes, my prediction is that 11 will be a big flop. Folks will manage with the hardware they already have and stick with 10 (or whatever) or won't pay vast sums for the hardware that will run 11.
I would love to make the jump away from Windows - if only to find out what the alternatives are (other than "getting a Mac"), but I keep hitting one key issue:
Every time I have tried to install Linux on one of my old laptops, something has gone wrong which the guide I have been following has not covered; trying to diagnose this subsequently has usually involved a degree of hardware or configuration knowledge beyond that which I have, or some kind of information which I would have been able to locate through Windows prior to the attempted Linnux installation, but I cannot obtain on the half-installed machine.
The community support I have received tends to be of little help - largely a mixture of elitism ("I've never had problems installing Linux") and pedantry ("Did you make sure the machine worked before trying the install?").
So yeah, I'm pretty much stuck with Windows - I'm loathe to even buy a machine with it pre-installed in case something goes wrong and I end up with something I can't fix...
In all honesty the best I've found is Ubuntu, which even supports the Apple wired keyboard (a must in our house).
Failing that, is Mandriva still going in some form? Traditionally that was the one that worked for me where nothing else would. I've also found Fedora will install on some machines that Ubuntu throws a hissy fit over, and vice versa.
I used Linux on the desktop for years and in the end I went back to Windows because I realised I was spending so much time trying to get things working (it's always hard, the tools for even quite common things like audio management or running laptop 3d accelerators are niche, awkward to configure and confusing, and the documentation is usually out of date or nonexistent) that it simply isn't worth it for me these days as a desktop OS.
The observation that Linux is only free if your time has no value remains painfully true.
The quote "over-promising and under-delivering have long been a thing where Windows is concerned" is spot on. Although I think "Windows" should probably be replaced with "Microsoft" myself.
Windows 11 will be on my new works PC I'm sure. I wonder how badly the new VBS will mess up Visual Studio. No doubt there will be "workarounds" that MS will be keen to hide away on some obscure page in their website, that I'll only find by searching for how to turn off some new whizzy-spinny motion-sickness-inducing animation or other that's completely unrelated but annoying. Sigh
In sequence:
No
Yes
No
I'll probably have to get used to it, because of my work, but I don't plan to upgrade my personal machine for a long time. Thankfully, my Ryzen 1800x isn't officially supported on 11, so I shouldn't have to worry about MS trying to force an upgrade on me.
Windows doesn't measure up to KDE Plasma by a long shot. I want to do things the way I want... if I didn't, I probably would have gone to "you're holding it wrong" Apple. Using WIndows feels antiquated and annoying by comparison.
Android apps? Been running those on Linux for a while now. Can easily be done on Windows (all versions) too. It's a cute feature that saves the few minutes of installing an emulator, but how about that old feature people have been requesting for 6 years now... full update control? How about a master OFF for telemetry on all versions (and not that malicious compliance thing that enterprise versions have that doesn't even turn it all the way off)?
How about letting the user decide what colors will be used? Not just one of "light" or "dark" mode, but anything else, the way Windows had from the beginning through XP, and partially in Vista and 7 (if one used basic themes)? I've never liked dark mode, but white backgrounds are not compatible with my eyes. It's such a basic thing, but it's missing.
The march toward the phone-oriented "settings" rather than the superior Control Panel continues, even though MS gave up on phones. So few options compared to what there used to be, except sometimes it tosses you back to the good old Control Panel applets anyway (so what's the point?).
Windows 10 is the OS that made Windows 8 look good to me. Yes, it had a goofy UI at first, but it was fixable with aftermarket mods. Windows 10... it's a lost cause, especially when a new version comes along every 6 months, and you have to redo all the modifications.
So now there is Windows 11, and the additional restrictions and deleted features makes Windows 10 look good, which is a very impressive feat in itself.
Windows 8 was when Windows jumped the shark, and it's only gotten worse.
This post has been deleted by its author
"As of yesterday there was Windows 10, which has evolved into a pretty good platform over the years."
No, it hasn't. Everything that made people avoid it six years ago is still in it. It still forces updates. It still has no OFF for telemetry. It still is a vehicle for whatever cockamamie scheme for monetization MS can come up with. It still can't decide if it is an OS for phones or for PCs, even years after MS quit with the phone efforts.
Windows 11 isn't any better, and is in some ways worse. I left Windows in late 2015 because of where "MIcrosoft wanted to go today" with my PC, and I sure don't see any reason to come back now. Win 11 is just another confirmation that my move to Linux was the right one.
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