back to article Leaked Guntrader firearms data file shared. Worst case scenario? Criminals plot UK gun owners' home addresses in Google Earth

The names and home addresses of 111,000 British firearm owners have been dumped online as a Google Earth-compatible CSV file that pinpoints domestic homes as likely firearm storage locations – a worst-case scenario for victims of the breach. As an exercise in amplifying a data theft to levels that endanger public safety, the …

  1. Geez Money

    No surprises here

    Animal rights activists committing/provoking/cheerleading the murder of people, what else is new? Anyone who claims they do it because of empathy, compassion, sympathy or anything of the like is fooling themselves, vegan is just a slightly different variant of sociopath from serial killer.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: No surprises here

      > vegan is just a slightly different variant of sociopath from serial killer.

      You forgot to compare anyone to Hitler.

      Lose 10 internet points, return to 4chan

      1. phuzz Silver badge

        Re: No surprises here

        "You forgot to compare anyone to Hitler."

        The classic "Hitler was a veterinarian" line is right there too.

      2. Kane Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: No surprises here

        "You forgot to compare anyone to Hitler."

        Getting in Godwin's Law early I see!

    2. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

      Re: No surprises here

      A bit harsh. Not all vegans are sociopaths: there was one I was acquainted with for over a year before I even knew he was vegan. (Though I have to say, his extreme skinniness and cold sensitivity made more sense after I found out.) Some people (believe it or not) are just quietly vegan for their own reasons.

      1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

        Re: No surprises here

        Veganism is so last year. Air Fryers are the new hot thing to proselytise now.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: No surprises here

          Air fryers are a really quick healthy way to cook vegan sausage.

          And you can make a lot of sausages from one vegan.

          1. The Dogs Meevonks

            Re: No surprises here

            How many vegans does it take to pave a patio?

            It depends how thin you slice them.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No surprises here

        Correct. Not all - just *nearly* all...

      3. TeeCee Gold badge
        Coat

        Re: No surprises here

        ...extreme skinniness and cold sensitivity...

        Easy to overlook, he could just have been one of the Lizard People and you don't want to accidently out one of them.

        1. Kane Silver badge
          Alien

          Re: No surprises here

          "Easy to overlook, he could just have been one of the Lizard People and you don't want to accidently out one of them.

          We've got one that can SEE!

      4. sipke

        Re: No surprises here

        I went vegan for a couple of years in the early 2000s, in response to my doctor advising me that I had high cholesterol. Alas, I got tired of haranguing people 24 hours a day about how great veganism is for the entire galaxy. So, it was back to bacon, beef and other delicacies for me. JK, I didn't harangue anybody. I kept it to myself.

      5. Timmy B

        Re: No surprises here

        "there was one I was acquainted with for over a year before I even knew he was vegan"... I'll call you out on that one. You simply cannot have a conversation with a vegan for more than 20 minutes without knowing they are a vegan (from an ex-vegan before you're all up in arms....)

        1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

          Re: No surprises here

          I know, right? I was taken aback.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: No surprises here

          I once went vegan. Those were the longest 20 minutes of my life.

    3. DrSunshine0104

      Re: No surprises here

      "vegan is just a slightly different variant of sociopath from serial killer."

      That statement is about as a stupid as the belief by any animal rights activist that any person who owns a gun wants to kill animals; there is lots of blanket and straw-man statements. Some vegans choose to be vegan because they extend their empathy of humans to animals, which is the antithesis of sociopathy.

      In my experience, the loudest detractors of vegetarianism/veganism often are the most ignorant of what they are talking about, or just cherry-pick the craziest of 'X' groups. Kind of like how some evangelical Christians talk about atheists. But please, I can't wait for you to tell me about my beliefs.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No surprises here

        "But please, I can't wait for you to tell me about my beliefs."

        And why shouldn't I? You have just told me about what I think and what opinions I hold, so fair's fair.

    4. JDPower666

      Re: No surprises here

      You were all set to get an up vote, then you came out with that super dumb, troll worthy, vegan comment.

      Oh and I'm not a vegan, so not offended, it's just one of the dumbest comments ever posted here (and that's saying something with amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re:"amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

        ...but that's ART is what that is!

        1. JDPower666

          Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

          I've always assumed it was an ongoing test of the infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters theory.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

            No it's a matrix red-pill test - if it makes sense you are still in the simulation.

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

              You laugh, but at some point he's going to begin a post with "now listen to me" and we're all going to jump up from our computers and try and shoot whoever we're instructed to.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

                @"we're all going to jump up from our computers and try and shoot whoever we're instructed to."

                I think you will find that only those that are allowed to own firearms be it with state support or otherwise have this option

                I thought that after the Dunblane Massacre that gun ownership was supposed to have been reduced but it appears that those that enjoy playing with guns are again tooled up and ready for a rerun.

                The answer to criminals knowing who has access to firearms is to have them stored where they cannot be stolen i.e. not at private homes but say in the middle of a military base with tightly controlled access.

                1. James Hughes 1

                  Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

                  I suspect the vast majority of these guns are shotguns, used for clay shooting or pest control in the countryside. Storing shotguns away from [private homes makes it almost impossible to do either. And the rules for shotgun storage are very strict.

                  Just so you know, shotgun/clay shooting is an Olympic sport, it's "playing" in the same way cycling is "playing", or rhythmic gymnastics is "playing".

                2. HelpfulJohn

                  Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

                  "I thought that after the Dunblane Massacre that gun ownership was supposed to have been reduced but it appears that those that enjoy playing with guns are again tooled up and ready for a rerun."

                  Plymouth, recently.

                  'Nuff said.

                3. HelpfulJohn

                  Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

                  "The answer to criminals knowing who has access to firearms is to have them stored where they cannot be stolen i.e. not at private homes but say in the middle of a military base with tightly controlled access."

                  According to USAlien TV, military sites regularly get things stolen from them. Everything from viruses through chemicals to nukes and even guns.

                  Though I'm *sure* British security is ever so very much better.

              2. Zarno Silver badge
                Joke

                Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

                Should I keep a 16mm, 8mm, or 35mm camera nearby to get the best shots?

                Is it required to throw the camera over my shoulder and say "I'm spent" at the end of the shoot?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: amanfrommars's regular nonsensical ramblings"

              Dunno about red pills and simulations, but I take blue pills for stimulation. Highly recommended.

    5. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: No surprises here

      vegan is just a slightly different variant of sociopath from serial killer.

      Didn't need that last bit. "Direct action" under the "Animal rights" banner is often shorthand for "people hating", a thinly-veiled excuse for arbitrary thuggery, arson and rural crime.

      It has nothing to do with veganism however - as the vegan snack van which regularly touts for business at... the National Shooting Centre can attest.

      1. Geez Money

        Re: No surprises here

        > as the vegan snack van which regularly touts for business at... the National Shooting Centre can attest

        Don't be fooled. They're just there to confirm kills.

    6. DrXym Silver badge

      Re: No surprises here

      I'd suggest this person was just a moron. So impassioned about protecting ickle wickle animals that they didn't consider a) firearms have other uses other than hunting, b) most animals shot by firearms are vermin like rats, pigeons, rabbits etc. that affect crops, c) they just handed criminals and terrorists a bonanza of addresses to steal from.

      So I hope for their sake they've anonymized themselves well because if they have done something in contravention to terrorism law I can see an international arrest warrant winging its way to them.

      1. katrinab Silver badge

        Re: No surprises here

        I don't think your average animal rights protestor will be convinced by argument b.

        Also, in terms of terrorists, animal rights protestors are a far bigger problem than for example Islamists. The top 3 are animal rights, anti-choice/"pro-life", and environmentalists. Probably in the most recent numbers you will find the anti-5G and anti-vaxxer lot featuring very highly.

      2. ICL1900-G3 Bronze badge

        Re: No surprises here

        I'd like to see 'vermin' that have done as much damage to this planet as Homo so-called sapiens.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: No surprises here

          Those damn photosynthesizers really screwed up the atmosphere and even did a lot of damage to most rocks.

    7. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Re: No surprises here

      I eat meat. All the vegans I know are motivated by concern for animals, the planet or both. Nothing even remotely sociopathic, a term I would keep for those who obsess about other people's dietary choices.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: No surprises here

        I think the "sociopath" commenter was just performing a bit of mischievous flippancy designed to provoke, and not something anyone needs to be soiling themselves about.

      2. Geez Money

        Re: No surprises here

        > Nothing even remotely sociopathic, a term I would keep for those who obsess about other people's dietary choices.

        So... vegans? Glad we agree.

      3. Stork

        Re: No surprises here

        This is the reason we avoid the term vegan, even if what we eat largely is.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: No surprises here

          Yeah, I'd nor thought of it like that before. If the only meat I eat is source from vegan animals, eg cows, pigs, sheep, chickens etc, that makes me a vegan too!

        2. A Nother Handle
          Joke

          Re: No surprises here

          What, you largely eat vegans?

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No surprises here

        No they are not sociopaths but just (useful) idiots.

        That said, treat all animals well. It is 1) ethical, and 2) when taken good care of, they taste better.

  2. b0llchit Silver badge
    Facepalm

    section 58

    This section should be for those who allowed the break-in to happen, i.e. the guntrader folks. They amassed this amount of data, which itself is an illegal weapon.

    This whole episode also should highlight the absurdity from many points of view. Why are there so many firearms and why do we need to have all of this data in a vulnerable place? Oh yes, money. Owning and using guns is fine as long as the government get its cut. Damned the consequences. I guess some people should literally shoot themselves in the foot to get back to earth.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: section 58

      Watch out you're not caught by plod with a bus timetable in your pocket. That's a clear section 58 violation.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: section 58

        That's why as a simple precaution the bus timetable bears no resemblance to the actual position of the bus.

        It has been suggested that all bus timetables are a deliberate counter-terrorist disinformation program, similar to the fake 'D-Day' army in Dover heading for Calais

        1. b0llchit Silver badge
          Childcatcher

          Re: section 58

          That finally explains why the timetable never correlates with any actual bus passing by.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: section 58

            See also Crawley and the M25

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: section 58

        Sigh.

        A violation is only a violation when the court says so. Nobody would dare take possession of a timetable to court because the result would be a not guilty, harsh words from the judge, very likely including the words "contempt of court" and further action for misfeasance in public office or malicious prosecution.

        Perhaps you should also look up "de minimis".

        OTOH gathering this information by Guntrader might not be such a ridiculous case.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: section 58

          Unless the person was the wrong colour and you needed to pin the costs of a wasted investigation on them?

          Remember the case when they broke up an Islamic terrorist cell, and found Ricin. Then later admitted that they had found microgram quantities of Ricin in a supermarket tin of kidney beans in the kitchen.

          Or you shoot the wrong brown person on the tube and then have to leak details of their expired student visa to show it was justified

          1. A random security guy Bronze badge

            Re: section 58

            In the US they get medals and notches on their badges.

        2. katrinab Silver badge
          Paris Hilton

          Re: section 58

          You think plod wouldn't attempt to try it anyway?

          How cute. How naïve.

    2. Adelio Silver badge

      Re: section 58

      There are very few firearms in the UK especially when you compare it to the USA and other counteries

      "The U.S. has just 4% of the world’s population but owns about 40% of civilian-owned guns globally,"

      approx 120 firearms per 100 people (not a thousand but a hundred) When you compare that to the UK we own a tiny insignificant number of firearms.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Pirate

        Re: section 58

        and if the criminals see that your house has a firearm in it they have basically 2 scenarios:

        * you won't be home if they want to actually steal your firearm

        * you WILL be home and will use your firearm(s) on THE CRIMINAL (I would)

        It might be interesting to view crime stats later to see if criminals avoid the "firearm house" in favor of the one nearby with all of the lights off and an expensive entertainment system inside...

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: section 58

          You describe the escalation of crime that firearms cause.

          If you need to rob a guy who might have a gun, then you need to kill him first before he can use his gun on you.

          1. Timmy B

            Re: section 58

            "You describe the escalation of crime that firearms cause."

            No - this is the escalation of crime that CRIMINALS cause.... It simply wouldn't happen without criminals. But get rid of all the guns and escalation of crime will still happen.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: section 58

              @Timmy B

              "But get rid of all the guns and escalation of crime will still happen."

              Thats why its always a group and/or knife/weapon. The difference with a gun is its a great equaliser. Almost anyone can fire one and its not about body strength in the fight.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: section 58

                >>The difference with a gun is its a great equaliser. Almost anyone can fire one and its not about body strength in the fight.

                Which is why so many fat, chinless, psychotic incels like to (legally) get their hands on them.

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: section 58

          * you won't be home if they want to actually steal your firearm

          If it's properly secured, that may take some time and possibly be a little noisy

          * you WILL be home and will use your firearm(s) on THE CRIMINAL (I would)

          If it's properly secured, you probably won't have time to get it out, load it and use it. On the other hand, if that's what they came for, then you and your family being there is just more reason to do as they say and give them any weapons and ammunition you have, nice and quietly.

          It might be interesting to view crime stats later to see if criminals avoid the "firearm house" in favor of the one nearby with all of the lights off and an expensive entertainment system inside...

          See above, it depends on what that specific criminal is looking for.

  3. Woodnag Silver badge

    Storage

    My understanding is that only pest control firearms can be stored at home (locked cab etc) and the handgun stuff only at the range.

    So the burglars can be detected for the angle grinder purchases to convert 12-gauges into whippets.

    1. vtcodger Silver badge

      Re: Storage

      My understanding is that only pest control firearms can be stored at home

      Is there a rigorous definition of "pest". I'm sure that a large percentage of animal activists consider hunters to be pests.

      And vice versa of course.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Storage

        @"definition of "pest" see Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia

        From my own view, allowing any access to a firearm increases the chances that they will be used against people.

        Whilst in the UK legal firearm ownership is limited compared with the US there have still been enough legal abuses to suggest that the current laws fail to protect citizens.

        Again from my own point of view I believe that there is no reasonable justification for private firearm ownership especially since land parcels large enough for their safe use are disappearing as any free land is converted into housing.

        1. Rich 11 Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          especially since land parcels large enough for their safe use are disappearing as any free land is converted into housing.

          You have a truly limited grasp of reality. I'd tell you where and when I first fired a shotgun but you'd deny such a thing could ever happen.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Storage

            I was a regular clay pigeon shooter, licensed shotgun owner and keeper. I recall the routine of stealthily getting the cased gun from the house to the car and back again. I used to shoot at a club on the outskirts of a twon and the main problem for everyone was the noise.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Storage

          you should look up the difference in violent crime rates from before UK put extreme restrictions on those devices and after - you will be surprised, and saddened.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Storage

            @"you should look up the difference in violent crime rates from before UK put extreme restrictions on those devices and after - you will be surprised, and saddened."

            So all violent crime has increased due only to firearm restrictions?

            Rubbish, austerity and the resulting desperation it causes are far more more to blame for previously non-criminals committing crime.

            If normal people cannot get what they need to live legally then they will get it illegally and since more people are carrying weapons, then those that want to get away with crime will too.

            Add in lack of affordable housing and you have people wandering the country virtually unchecked along with criminals from other countries who see the current situation in the UK asopen for whatever they want to do.

            Crime involving weapons been spiraling out of control for years and with COVID and the resulting lack of police on the streets meant that too many have been getting away with it for too long.

            More guns is never the answer, the US has proven this, more guns only ever means more gun deaths, owning a gun does not make you safer again the US proves this.

            Has the reg become the mouth piece for the UK NRA because there seems to be alot of gun lovers on here

        3. Robert Grant Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          > land parcels large enough for their safe use are disappearing as any free land is converted into housing

          90% of the UK is rural. https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/urbanareasintheuk

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Storage

            "90% of the UK is rural."

            As evidenced by the map image in the article showing the spread of gun owners. It's like a negative image of the satellite photos showing light pollution. The dark areas are the urban areas where legal gun ownership is negligible,

        4. Timmy B

          Re: Storage

          "Again from my own point of view I believe that there is no reasonable justification for private firearm ownership especially since land parcels large enough for their safe use are disappearing as any free land is converted into housing."

          Spoken like someone who has, I bet, never left the comfort of a city...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Storage

            @ "Spoken like someone who has, I bet, never left the comfort of a city..."

            So what are you saying here? life outside of the cities requires you to carry a firearm? what exactly are you afraid of?

            As too your suggestion of where I have lived in actuality the vast majority of my life it has been in rural villages. where I live has a school, a church and a wine shop nothing else but housing, There is shotgun shooting all around where I live and the pain of peasants in the road where the local suck up wannabe has yet again failed to contain his game stock.

            For my part, I see the increasing interest in shooting in the same light as Apple phone users i.e. "you are not one of us unless you own X".

            Pathetic really that anyone would want to join a club where money/land is the only requirement especially when you consider that the majority of live target shooters do not actually eat what they kill making the the whole thing a gratuitous waste of life

            Hardly something to be proud of, shooting something that is no risk at all, not even big game level of expertise or investment is it?

            I am not a vegan I just believe that if you kill without reason then you are the very last person to be trusted with access to firearms.

        5. rg287 Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          especially since land parcels large enough for their safe use are disappearing as any free land is converted into housing.

          Aside from the fact that 90% of the UK is rural, you would be astonished by some of the outdoor ranges operating quite safely for the past century in Central London. Borough of Wandsworth RC springs to mind.

          There are indoor range operating in places as unlikely as the footing of London Bridge.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Pirate

        Re: Storage

        I consider CRIMINALS to be "pests"

    2. Ochib

      Re: Storage

      Nope. The guidance states

      "Under the Firearms Rules 1998, a prescribed safekeeping condition is attached to all firearm and shotgun certificates. It is an offence not to comply with these conditions. The maximum penalty for this offence can be up to 6 months in prison, or a fine, or both.

      The safekeeping condition attached to firearms or shotgun certificates requires that the guns and section 1 ammunition must be stored securely to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, unauthorised people taking or using them. Any other person who does not hold a firearm or shotgun certificate is included in the term ‘unauthorised’.

      When a gun or section 1 ammunition is being used or the holder has the gun with him for some purpose connected with its use, transfer or sale, reasonable precautions must be taken for the safe custody of the gun(s) and section 1 ammunition.

      The condition does not apply to the ammunition for a shotgun. However, as a matter of common sense, you should take reasonable precautions for its safe custody."

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117794/security_leaflet.pdf

      1. xyz Silver badge

        Re: Storage

        You can quote all that to the bloke holding a knife to your kid's throat when he kindly asks you to unlock your wall box or else.

        1. Robert Grant Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          If we're going theoretical, you can shoot all you want at the incoming nuke headed for that hospital.

    3. fnusnu

      Re: Storage

      Handgun stuff is completely banned in the UK

      1. Ochib

        Re: Storage

        muzzle-loading pistols are legal

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          >muzzle-loading pistols are legal

          Any limits on definition of pistol ?

          Swords? No, Sir we duel with cannon

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Storage

        I'm not really sure who downvoted this; Section 5 of the Firearms act says:

        Weapons subject to general prohibition:-

        any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall

        So yes, pistols are banned. Unless it's an air pistol, or if you are a Crown (not civil) servant (ie Police; Armed forces etc) carrying something issued to you.

        1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          Not actually. You can buy a pistol with an extended stock and a suppressor to bring it up to the minimum length requirements.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Storage

            So if the villains keep the bits they saw off the shotguns and glue then on the front of the pistol everything is ok?

          2. ItWasn'tMe

            Re: Storage

            No you can't.

            The fixed barrel must be 30cm minimum.

            Any moderater would be an addition to that overall length.

            Likewise the 'stock' (common to be just a bar) is fixed to the firearm during manufacturing.

            1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

              Re: Storage

              I'll concede the moderator, as you put it, but the point was that you can definitely buy pistols in the UK as long as they conform to the length requirements. They end up looking like something the Joker would pull out of his trousers.

        2. Adelio Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          I presume people who do competative shooting. i.e. the olympics etc can hold pistols.

          1. rg287 Silver badge

            Re: Storage

            They can now. Sort of. Prior to 2012 it was pointed out to the Home Office that it was bloody stupid making our Olympic Pistol athletes train in Switzerland (which was what they were doing).

            The Home Office did a deal with British Shooting to issue Section 5 permits to upto ~20-25 nominated National athletes to keep their pistols in the UK, to be used only at specified Section 5 ranges which are locked up when shooting - i.e. a licensed firearms owners wouldn't even be allowed to be present (or shoot rifle) on the range whilst GB were training pistol in case they tried to steal the pistols (or something equally ludicrous). There are a half dozen S.5 ranges nationally, which is not ideal for regular training.

            The issue of talent ID is also quite tricky. British Shooting have to take the people who are performing well on Air Pistol and then "give them a go" on Section 5. The disciplines are quite different however, so people who do well in one are not always the people who will do well in the other.

            Meanwhile, Northern Ireland didn't ban anything and still has a lower homicide rate than England.

            1. WhereAmI?

              Re: Storage

              Yah. We've also got the highest rate of legally-owned firearms in the UK. Given the history of our corner of this green and pleasant land, that makes you think a bit.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Storage

            From what I hear, the British Olympic shooting team go overseas to train/practice because it's easier that way.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Storage

          >>>I'm not really sure who downvoted this;

          Handgun nonces.

        4. SundogUK Silver badge

          Re: Storage

          Airguns and muzzle-loaders are not classified as 'firearms.'

      3. DrXym Silver badge

        Re: Storage

        You can actually import hand guns if they're legally antiques per certain definitions of the cartridge it uses, and if the weapon is breech / muzzle loading and some other things.

        So you could potentially purchase a revolver in an obsolete calibre using pin fire / percussion caps quite legally and not even have to worry about even owning a licence. That said, if you tried to obtain ammo for it or shoot it you might be in a heap of trouble.

    4. Ian Mason

      Re: Storage

      That's wrong in just about every way. Lots of people keep firearms locked up at home that are only used for target shooting with an express endorsement on their firearms certificate that that is where they are to be stored when not in use.. Private possession of a Handgun has not been permitted since 1997 and would land you in court for possession of a section 5 prohibited weapon followed by a mandatory minimum of 5 years in choakie.

    5. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: Storage

      My understanding is that only pest control firearms can be stored at home (locked cab etc) and the handgun stuff only at the range.

      Not even close.

      Handgun stuff went entirely in 1997 (bar muzzle-loaders and more recently the "long-barrelled pistols"). Justice Cullen did sort of propose that, stating in his Public Inquiry that there would be no benefit to prohibiting handguns and if such a draconian (his word) measure was to be taken, it should apply to individuals and not to clubs - i.e. you could go and shoot at a club and leave it there (unless, presumably, you needed to take it to competition that weekend in which case there would be a long list of exemptions and special conditions).

      Anything people can actually own they have the option to store at their home address or at a club (if the club has secure storage available - many don't because they're very remote or just an outdoor range in the middle of nowhere without a clubhouse/armoury).

    6. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Storage

      Not true. Unless a .303 Lee Enfield number 4 counts as a pest control weapon.

  4. Nunyabiznes

    Registrations

    And just another example of why I don't like registrations of private data. That a company has data this exacting is even more worrying than a government entity having it (maybe).

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: Registrations

      I'd be more worried that people with guns willingly gave their information to them in the first place.

    2. A random security guy Bronze badge

      Re: Registrations

      A new wife and a new mistress too?

    3. General Purpose Bronze badge

      Re: Registrations

      Presumably it was Guntrader that converted postal addresses into geo-coordinates - it's not as if most of us have them memorised. Perhaps they simply used the freely downloadable postcode database.

  5. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    Consequences

    When there is a breach of such calibre, company should pay for relocation of people who fear for their safety.

    Even if that includes plastic surgery, replacing documents, buying a house like for like and finding jobs in the new area.

    If that makes them go bankrupt? Tough luck.

    1. MiguelC Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Consequences

      And to demolish every one of those homes too and never allow another living space to be built there? Because potential burglars have no idea if the gun owner still lives at that place or if it has been sold or rented to someone else, who might unknowingly be at risk.

      1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

        Re: Consequences

        They should rename the street and probably put a plaque that a gun owner used to lived there, but suddenly vanished - just in case (also as a comic in case burglars can't read). Any new owner should be made aware of the issue during survey, like you are informed when area is subject to flooding and then take appropriate operational security measures around the perimeter.

    2. JDPower666
      Trollface

      Re: Consequences

      "a breach of such calibre"

      1. FlippingGerman

        Re: Consequences

        Breech.

    3. Winkypop Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Consequences

      I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit…..

  6. JimmyPage

    Now this is a blight on house prices the Mail should be reporting ...

    if they weren't rammed up the Tories back passage, that is.

  7. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

    "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

    I've always thought that was a strange name for an organisation. Like "The Royal Society for the Prevention of Blindness and Running Around on Uneven Surfaces with Pointy Sticks", or something (RSPBRAUSPS for short).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

      Strange as it may seem to people who have only ever lived in towns or cities, if you want birds to live in a wood in order to be able to have a go at shooting some of them once a year then you need to make that place much nicer for them to live than anywhere else.

      That involves considerable management of the wood, and preventing pests that may enter it from killing the birds and their young offspring off before they can fly.

      You'll rarely find activist protesters doing the boring bits of looking after any woodland for years. Woods have always been managed; completely wild is rarely a beneficial state for most animals/birds.

      1. jollyboyspecial

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        Makes you wonder how nature managed before firearms were invented

        1. Richard Jones 1

          Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

          Neglecting wood craft has seen some magnificent fires recently. Conservation requires more than sitting back and watching while the fires burn.

          If, of course, you want to go back to the state of the country well before say 10,000 BC. You might just find it a less favourable location than your home at the moment. Many of the present 'natural' species might struggle far more than they do at the moment. Perhaps the likes of aurochs would like the land, I am not sure which other species that have adapted more recently would do so well.

        2. rg287 Silver badge

          Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

          Makes you wonder how nature managed before firearms were invented

          Or how nature managed before people.

          Before people, nature wasn't overrun by monocultures of non-native invasive species. Investigate the diversity of species in a riverbank choked out by Knotweed and tell us how well nature is managing "without us".

          Sadly, the nature of global trade has meant we are now stuck with a lot of plants - and some animals - which lack natural predators. Managing woodland could be achieved publicly if the government wanted to buy it all up and spend taxpayer's money on restoring it and keeping invasive species under control. This is astonishingly expensive, which is why your local Wildlife Trust relies heavily on volunteers.

          Another way of doing it is for people to run profitable businesses within the woodlands. This might take the form of mountain biking or Go Ape. It might be game shooting. There is space for a diversity of activities.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

          "Makes you wonder how nature managed before firearms were invented"

          That would probably be back when this sceptered isle had actual large carnivores like wolves and bears and a proper natural and balanced food chain. Then those bloody Neanderthal moved in!

      2. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        Well, you may think you're conserving something by shooting grouse, but that's unfortunately just bullsh#t. It's like saying golf courses are good for the environment because it's better than turning them into open-cast coal mines. The "management" (burning) of moorland for grouse degrades peatland habitat, releases greenhouse gases, reduces biodiversity, increases the risk of flooding, and has very negative consequences for carbon sequestration and climate change. Stop deluding yourself about this just so you can practise something that claims to be a sport. And no, I'm not just some city kid – I'm up on the High Peak moorlands every week. I see the burning and the monoculture. It's not big, and it's not clever. Rewilding (another, much less damaging form of management that benefits a broad swathe of people rather than just a specific minority) is a far better option.

        1. rg287 Silver badge

          Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

          Rewilding (another, much less damaging form of management that benefits a broad swathe of people rather than just a specific minority) is a far better option.

          It certainly is. Now put your money where you mouth is. You'll require:

          * Regular supervision to spot invasive species

          * Teams of people to remove things like knotweed choking rivers and watercourses. This may be an annual job for the next couple of decades.

          * Saplings and seeds for native species and people to plant them

          Rinse and repeat for millions of hectares across the country. Rewilding is not cheap and doesn't just mean "letting it do it's thing". It requires active management if it's to be restored to a diverse and healthy habitat (not just knotweed and rhododendron).

          Farmers provide this for free because it's good for ground-nesting birds. You're welcome.

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

            Not necesarilly, as it happens: the Guardian had an interesting interview with someone that rewilded 650ha, by the sound of it by doing not much. Birds did a fair bit of the work for him. The main issue he identified was preventing hunters trying to take advantage of the animals that moved in.

            1. rg287 Silver badge

              Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

              Interesting read, and whilst I was perhaps leading to a worst-case model, he does sound like he's got lucky in not having too much rubbish in there to start with.

              If you've got Himalayan Balsam or Knotweed then you simply won't be as hands-off as he's been. It will cost mega money and be an ongoing process to weed it out as the bits you've missed continue to flare up.

      3. Man inna barrel

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        > That involves considerable management of the wood, and preventing pests that may enter it from killing the birds and their young offspring off before they can fly.

        You can't have foxes and other pests eating the baby pheasants before they are grown up, or what will the shooters have to shoot at?

      4. tiggity Silver badge

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        Most shooting woods here not very natural as massive numbers of (typically mass bred elsewhere and transported in) game birds (pheasant in this area, not even a native UK bird). The unnaturally huge amount of these disrupts the eco system in that area and nearby as some spread out (and attracts predators in as its like an all you can eat buffet, so causing keepers to "need" to shoot predators, which in the case of some illegally acting gamekeepers includes protected birds of prey).

        e.g. biomass estimates

        https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2021/01/25/non-native-gamebirds-pheasants-red-legged-partridges-comprise-approx-half-of-all-wild-bird-biomass-in-britain/

      5. Jan 0 Silver badge

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        Favouring some species above the others isn't conservation, it's gardening.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

      Obligatory South Park reference:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr0bBuI8HKM

    3. Anonymice

      Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

      I get the apparent irony in the name, but it is for the most part, accurate. With exception of fowl shooting, the majority of uses would be for the euthanasia of large livestock suffering in illness (as opposed to the methods used in abattoirs), or pest control.

      I'm against hunting for sport, but with the UK's apex predators having been wiped out long ago, controlled culling is an unavoidable necessity of maintaining healthy ecosystems.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

        >controlled culling is an unavoidable necessity of maintaining healthy ecosystems.

        What is the natural preditor of people who shoot grouse -

        A crowd of revolting peasants with a portable guillotine ?

        1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

          Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

          What is it with grouses?

          Some people spend huge amounts of money to shoot grouse and go " haw haw, load me pleb". Most firearms holders don't give a jot about shooting grouse.

          Your grousing is like complaining how dangerous cars are because Ferrari owners drive fast ...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

            Because shoots are one of the main excuses wheeled out to justify having access to firearms?

            1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

              Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

              As I said, most fireams holders don't give a jot about Grouse shooting.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

              The main reason for allowing shotguns is for pest control, not game shooting. There is a reason that many owners tend to be farmers (and farmers' mums). Those of us who aren't mostly just shoot innocent clay pigeons.

              Posting anonymously so as not to dox myself

              1. jollyboyspecial

                Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

                You're all forgetting that you can't catch COIVD-19 when shooting grouse. Or you can't at least according to our Tory government.

                1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                  Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

                  Well obviously not if you shoot them in time - before they get too close to you.

    4. DrXym Silver badge

      Re: "British Association for Shooting and Conservation"

      Conservation is a nebulous term to associate with firearms.

      A person who owns a firearm to cull deer might be said to be engaged in conservation since too many deer can damage trees & plants. By culling the deer they are engaged in conservation.

      A person who owns a firearm to shoot grouse most certainly isn't. In fact, quite the opposite since moorlands have to be burned each year for grouse to live there. It has a severe environmental impact and is detrimental other kinds of wildlife which are less "fun" to shoot.

  8. batfink Silver badge

    Why?

    I can understand the Plod wanting the locations of the guns, but why do Guntrader store these details?

    Unless the Plod have just outsourced the problem, I suppose.

    This is a real bastard for gun owners, who have been following the regulations but now find themselves at active risk.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Why?

      It's much cheaper to outsource.

      If the plod did it they would need extra staff who could read, others who could write, some special branch to keep on eye on these two groups of groups of dangerous intellectuals, somebody to leave the database in a winebar - and an intern who knew how to upload it to an unsecured AWS folder.

      Much cheaper to let the commercial sector do this for you

    2. jollyboyspecial

      Re: Why?

      An awful lot of businesses store data that they have no right to store. Well when I say "right" what I mean is they store data above and beyond the data that they have declared that they store. And then they tend to keep that data way beyond their need to store it even if they have a clear data retention policy. How many businesses actually have one of those?

      The reason for all the above is laziness.

      When you are making a sale or even just dealing with an enquiry you may need to enter data which doesn't need to be kept beyond the processing of the sale or enquiry. But a lot of organizations don't bother removing that excess data because that takes effort. Then when it comes to data retention how many organizations actually have a process to regularly delete expired data? Very few. I've dealt with multiple organizations who wrote up retention policies because they had to, but never had any intention of implementing them.

      The attitude seems to be that there's no issue as they will never get audited. Until the shit hits the fan when there's a data breach that is.

      In a case like this the fact that a lot of the data is out of date is probably the biggest issue. There have been cases in the past where "activists" (stupid word, stupidly applied) have leaked data such as membership lists* of a particular political party or group, but a lot of the data was probably out of date. Imagine some member had moved house and the new residents were targetted by some other "activists" (who of course had noble intentions). Would the original "activist" who posted the data be willing to take responsibility? Of course not.

      *In the case of one such leaked list it was not the membership list that the "activists" claimed it was, but a mailing list which could have had a totally different purpose. We've all received marketing material before as a result of being included on some purchased mailing list of questionable origin haven't we?

  9. StudeJeff

    Why on Earth would Guntraders have all that data? I live in the US and have a concealed carry permit, but that doesn't necessary mean I have any guns. The gun shops that I may (or may not have) bought guns from would have a record of the sale, but there is no central repository of such data. That's by federal law and that's the way it should be.

    Is it a government requirement that Guntraders have all that data?

    1. Ozz

      Although there are several places in the U.S. that do keep that information, in violation of federal law, and just pay the fines when they get caught.

      (Also in the U.S., concealed carry license holder and firearms instuctor).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      As I understand, Federal enforcement of gun purchase regulations is so weak that it really barely exists. This is on purpose. Your business might be forced to close if you sell cheap beer to minors more than twice, but you can apparently repeatedly sell firearms to people who really look like criminals and face minimal repercussions.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Possible loophole., a combined gun and beer shop.

        You sell the assault rifle to the schoolkids and then they rob you at gunpoint and take the beer - everybody is happy.

      2. Man inna barrel

        > ... people who really look like criminals ...

        And what does a criminal look like, exactly? Life would be so much easier for the police, if they knew what criminals look like. You would not need all that tiresome evidence and stuff.

        1. AndrueC Silver badge
          Joke

          Eyes too close together (sometimes have a patch over one eye), untidy hair and go by the name of 'Lefty'.

          1. Wally Dug

            Don't forget the striped jumper, black trousers, eye mask and the big bag that they carry over their shoulder which is marked as "swag".

          2. Bongwater

            and they have a tattoo of a dagger!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/us/atf-gun-store-violations.html

          "

          One store was cited for failing to conduct background checks before selling a gun. Another store owner told investigators he actively tried to circumvent gun laws. One threatened an A.T.F. officer, and another sold a gun to a customer who identified as a felon. All were previously cited by the A.T.F. In each instance, supervisors downgraded recommendations that the stores’ licenses be revoked and instead let them stay open.

          "

      3. Adelio Silver badge

        Typical America, they would rather let people die that impose on their "freedums"

    3. chivo243 Silver badge

      My father passed recently in the Colonies, leaving behind a small arsenal that my mother wanted nothing to do with, a friend of my father told us he could make all the guns go away. Or my mom could try to sell them individually, and his advice was to record the name, address, date of the transaction on paper, and both parties sign it. This was to protect my mother incase the firearms ultimately ended up being used in a crime. IT IS ALL ON PAPER!

      I was flabbergasted by this at the time, how could guns be so freely traded and NOT tracked?

      Now I'm at a loss

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        >I was flabbergasted by this at the time, how could guns be so freely traded and NOT tracked?

        In case the redcoats turn up at the door - how else are you going to prevent the Queen taking over ?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Perhaps some confusion with the name as 'Guntrader' is the trading name of a UK orientated market place for firearms and associated items (sights, spotting scopes, tools etc). The business also offers software for tracking the sale and purchase of firearms for Registered Firearm Dealers (RFD).

      Here in the UK all purchases and sales of items, governed by the firearms act, that are carried out by an RFD must be formally recorded.

      For transactions between private individuals the respective police force firearms licensing departments are informed.

      Posting anonymous, because :)

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "The business also offers software for tracking the sale and purchase of firearms for Registered Firearm Dealers (RFD)."

        That sounds as if the dealers might be on the hook as data controllers. I wonder how many of them have reported the breach of their share of the data to the ICO.

      2. yetanotheraoc

        and informally?

        "Here in the UK all purchases and sales of items, governed by the firearms act, that are carried out by an RFD must be formally recorded."

        Does the Guntrader software phone home?

    5. Adelio Silver badge

      Since firearms are VERY dangerous, they primary purpose is to KILL so it seems only sensible for the police at least to know who owns what firearms.

      Now before you get all 2nd amendment on me consider this. You have a drivers licence that allows you to drive a car and the state knows all about you. A car is FAR less dangerous than a gun, and both can Kill.

      So if it is OK for a car what is your problems with the guns?

      1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

        Nice try, but trying to apply common sense to gun control in America has been proved not to work. Next idea please!

      2. yetanotheraoc

        apples and oranges

        Not so fast. Needing a license to drive a car does not imply anything at all about licensing of firearms. I need a license to _drive a car_ on a _public_ way. I don't need a license to: drive a car on a private way; ride a bicycle on a public way; walk on a public way; drive a lawnmower on private property; etc. The major point is that the government can _somewhat_ regulate the public way because they built it. (A way on private property with unrestricted access to a public way is also subject to the same regulations, as a practical matter.) But in the case of firearms, the government did not build my home, farm, open space, etc., so the government does not have the right to willy-nilly regulate every aspect of my use of those spaces.

  10. Tron Bronze badge

    On the other hand...

    ...this could be a map of people you should avoid attempting to rob, as they are armed, and might shoot you.

    Incidentally, I am a vegan, but I don't get involved in online shouting matches with people like the original poster.

    I really don't mind if you pour the breast-milk of farm animals in your coffee. It is your right and I would not attempt to prevent you.

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: On the other hand...

      Unlike many countries, by the time you've got the keys, opened the gun safe (often in the loft), loaded the gun... The burglars have cleaned out the house, loaded the van and long gone.

      1. General Purpose Bronze badge

        Re: On the other hand...

        Or worse.

        >Once inside the men took cash and watches, then asked whether the victim had any guns. When the homeowner hesitated to answer, he was shot at close range in the ankle by Daniels, who demanded, “answer quicker.”

        And yes, it did go downhill from there. https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/liverpool-gang-members-convicted-after-lancashire-farmer-is-shot-twice-in-armed-robbery-3187597

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: On the other hand...

      >really don't mind if you pour the breast-milk of farm animals in your coffee. It is your right and I would not attempt to prevent you.

      And yet if you try and consume it directly there is a big fuss and you get kicked out of the field

      1. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

        Re: On the other hand...

        > you get kicked out of the field

        ... yes, and probably *by* the farm animal that you tried to suckle from.

        1. fiskrond

          Re: On the other hand...

          the one's with the horns seem to like it though...

  11. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. Ian Johnston Silver badge

    Can we have a trigger warning, please?

  13. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Trollface

    "why it was collecting location coordinates down to six decimal places"

    Well because Big Data, of course.

    You never know what it might be useful for, so privacy be damned, grab everything you can and AI will sort it out.

    Or hackers.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: "why it was collecting location coordinates down to six decimal places"

      Well, to be fair, although they probably neither needed nor should have had that level of co-ordinate data, once the data had been stolen with full address and postcode, pretty much anyone could have correlated that data with mapping data. Having the coordinates just made it easier and quicker.

  14. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

    Hopefully some good

    comes from it.

    Eg a popular brand of rifle is made 10 miles along the coast road from me, local plod station is 1/2 mile or so from said place, and the alarm is wired straight to the plod house and the local armed response group live in that plod house......

    Criminals raid the place , ARG turns up and

    "oops sorry sarge my finger kinda slipped on the trigger"

    "Really constable?.... 6 times and four following at close range?"

    "Taking no chances sarge"

    "Or prisoners either by the looks of it"

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Hopefully some good

      But what if you don't have a pet dog for them to shoot ?

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Hopefully some good

      That sounds a bit like the time someone robbed a bookies in E Belfast which had a silent alarm installed. It was just cross from the RUC firearms training centre. The instructors turned up within seconds.

  15. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Facepalm

    I tried to look surprised

    I failed!

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You may be surprised about the UK gun laws..

    https://youtu.be/aSwEGcngHF4

  17. Sparkus Bronze badge

    So was Guntrader

    a 'false flag' organization, operating as a legit service in order to (quietly) collect data on firearms owners that would otherwise be illegal to collate?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Keep a gun

    Increase your personal risk

  19. This post has been deleted by its author

  20. Potemkine! Silver badge

    I haven't a gun but I frequently exterminate mosquitoes. I hope no animal activists will go after me!

  21. This post has been deleted by its author

  22. Spanners Silver badge
    WTF?

    Curious

    Why are a couple of dozen places in Eire shown on the map? Or is that just the (very) dodgy Guntraders proving that they are not just getting guns into the UK?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Curious

      The leak is via a firm called Guntrader; who were used for compliance purposes by Registered Firearms Dealers to supply information to the police in a centralised way. Precisely why Guntrader then kept all the information, thus assembling an out of date version of the police firearms database is probably cause for a few questions.

      It is legal to buy a firearm and ship it abroad, assuming that you do the right paperwork on both sides. How rare it is can be seen by the paucity of foreign sales to the Republic of Ireland.

      BTW; upon reflection how likely would you say that it is that Registered Firearms Dealers using a system designed to ensure that they are providing all of the information to the Police are likely to be dodgy?

  23. codejunky Silver badge

    Hmm

    Not sure if criminals desiring to rob the armed house is the issue or anti-gun nutters.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmm

      Hmmm. Anti-gun nutters? Yes, that's a real problem. Headlines are full of "anti-gun nutters" these days. Was there was one just the other week, Hmmm?

  24. This post has been deleted by its author

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As a gun owner reading this thread a lot of the comments are concerning - so here's my contribution (as a gun owner) in the spirit of adding to the debate (and accepting some comments are just mischevious wind-ups, well I hope so)

    1. As a user of Guntrader I know it was not necessary to add an address (I didn't) so how many addresses were actually exposed is debateable - be good to understand this

    2. Owning a gun and shooting are legal pursuits

    3. Look at the independent research around moorland such as rural community sustainability and wildllife diversity, including raptors, of managed (higher) versus unmanaged moorland (lower) - and no I don't shoot grouse - latest one ( https://pure.northampton.ac.uk/en/publications/sustainable-driven-grouse-shooting-a-summary-of-the-evidence )

    4. Of the 24 successful nests controbuting to the 2021 increase in Hen Harriers, 19 are on managed moorland ( https://naturalengland.blog.gov.uk/2021/08/13/2021-hen-harrier-breeding-statistics/ )

    5. RSPB acknowledges the role of predator control ( https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/curlew/conservation/ )

    6. Chris Packham accepts wildlife control/management is needed in some instances ( https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/why-chris-packham-is-in-favour-of-culling-in-some-instances-293309 )

    7. A balanced and painful read for both sides of the debate around predation (accepting some people won't change their minds and others can be botherred to check if what they are repeating is actually based on any facts) is this: Beak, Tooth and Claw by Mary Colwell

    8. Shooting is involved in the management of two-thirds of the rural land area, with over 2 million hectares actively managed - this is of course for shooting - so depends on whether you accept that there are positive impacts for other wildlife (not wthstanding some some shoots do put down excessive numbers of reared birds that impact local wildlife - which needs addressing - in the same category as not banning driving because of some behaviours of some drivers)

    9. Shoot owners spend circa £250m a year on conservation projects, undertaking 3.9m work days - charities, local and central government are very unlikely to replace this effort or investment - where shoots have been stopped the local diversity has suffered ( http://www.langholmproject.com/ )

    10. Shooting is worth some £2bn per year to the Uk economy, much of this is in rural areas - what other activity or business is going to replace this

    11. All the shooting organisations condem raptor persecution - again, in the same category as not banning driving because of some behaviours of some drivers

    12. Last but not least, no one has mentioned the damage done to UK wildlife by mink released by animal rights activists.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2021