back to article Magna Carta mayhem: Protesters lay siege to Edinburgh Castle, citing obscure Latin text that has never applied in Scotland

A misguided attempt to "seize" Edinburgh Castle yesterday evening under "Magna Carta" – a Latin royal charter signed by King John of England in 1215 – proved short-lived. Livestreaming the siege against one of the oldest fortresses in Scotland (and Europe) via Facebook, protesters appeared to be objecting to COVID-19 lockdown …

  1. katrinab Silver badge
    Paris Hilton

    They will I'm sure be pleased to learn that the modern[1] equivalent of Article 61 is The House of Lords. That applies to Scotland as well as England.

    If they were in England, then the good news is that Article 24 of the Magna Carta is still in force. That's the one that gives them the right to a fair trial in the event that they are arrested for whatever nonsense they get up to.

    [1] relatively speaking

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Sadly even the 1689 Bill of Rights

      gets trumped by Traffic Cameras.

      1. gandalfcn Silver badge

        Re: Sadly even the 1689 Bill of Rights

        Maybe they were trumped because they are graduates of Trump University.

      2. Libertarian Voice

        Re: Sadly even the 1689 Bill of Rights

        That is an interesting point because L.J. Laws ruled that constitutional acts overruled ordinary statute and that the Bill of Rights is indeed a constitutional act (this was in Throburn v Sunderland City Council i.e. the Metric Martyrs case).

        I am of the opinion that therefore any demand that a forfeit is paid before conviction is, as the law states, illegal and void.

    2. gandalfcn Silver badge

      It's like the Trump terrorists citing the Constitution. They don't have a clue, just like their Dictator.

  2. b0llchit Silver badge
    Coat

    Holy Progress

    Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

    They are in desperate need to go from siege to capture. They may have a problem with counting though... needing some kind of smarts to be able to reach three.

    1. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Holy Progress

      "Fetchez la vache!"

      Also: it's a feckin' castle! The takeover was doomed to fail. All the defenders needed to do was to pull up the drawbridge and lower the portcullis, or whatever, then pour boiling oil on the rabble. Of course, the 20 were, as we say over here, "unencumbered by the thought process"*

      * RIP Car Talk

      1. Jim Mitchell Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Holy Progress

        Look, I understand that the Scots have a reputation regarding their food but "then pour boiling oil on the rabble" is a bit much. Deep fried misguided protestors? I'll pass, thanks.

        I did try deep fried pickles once. Was ok, won't buy again.

        1. Lin Lin the Magnanimous

          Re: Holy Progress

          As long as they're dipped in batter first, I see no problems...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Holy Progress

            I'm an American, I always expect my protestors to be battered. The pepper spray adds a nice zing, too.

            1. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

              Re: Holy Progress

              I was always more partial to mace...

              1. Xalran
                Devil

                Re: Holy Progress

                If I remember correctly my visit there ( it's fuzzy, it was 30ish years ago ) they have a nice collection of two handed swords ( claymores & friends ) in the castle, but maces were not in particular evidence.

                I'm sure being hit by the side of a 2m long sword will do the same trick as a mace though.

            2. Xalran

              Re: Holy Progress

              I'm French, I always expect the protestors and the police to be battered. Tear gas, pepper spray, molotov cocktails, and Parisian "Pavé" are "de rigueur". ( read : thrown coblestones )

            3. Swarthy
              Coat

              Re: Holy Progress

              Protesters are always battered, assaulted and pepper(spray)ed. How else would they be (protected and) served?

      2. Mike007

        Re: Holy Progress

        Can't raise the drawbridge, health and safety.

      3. DJ

        Re: Holy Progress

        Upvote for working in the reference to Click 'n Clack.

      4. slimshady76
        Coat

        Re: Holy Progress

        Everyone knows the only proper way to defend a Scottish castle is by employing kamikaze Scotsmen!!

        https://youtu.be/Skr6wpsiWI8

        Mine is the one with the copy of "How to commit seppuku with a cone of fish and chips" in the left inner pocket.

    2. NoneSuch Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: Holy Progress

      Been a while since I was there, but I do recall several dungeons under Edinburgh Castle. I don't remember them being particularly 'cozy', but I'm sure thirty people could spruce them up if confined there for an extended period.

      I mean, if they want the castle then give them the dank dark pits of the 13th century to truly appreciate the freedoms granted by the Magna Carta.

      The rest of us will go to the pub and think about what we did.

      1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Holy Progress

        Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I, wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the rabbit, taking the French errr Scots by surprise - not only by surprise, but totally unarmed!

      2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Holy Progress

        Been a while since I was there, but I do recall several dungeons under Edinburgh Castle. I don't remember them being particularly 'cozy', but I'm sure thirty people could spruce them up if confined there for an extended period.

        Luckily they didn't dig too deep. Or straight down. The Rock being a volcanic plug and all. Which I guess also goes towards explaining the... strange character(s) of Glasgow on account of the high radon levels.

        But plug removal is a rather extreme way to deal with the castle. A more traditional way would be per King Edward 1 and his siege of Stirling Castle. That didn't rely on the Magna Carta, just a rather large trebuchet called the War Wolf. The Scottish defenders promptly surrendered. But then if you've gone to the trouble and expense of building the world's largest siege engine, you'd want to see it in action. So the King refused the surrender and fired away.

        So they should have built War Wolf 2.0. I suspect the police may have objected, but I've always been a bit curious if there's still legislation covering the possession of antique reproduction siege weapons. If nothing else, I suspect it'd count as at least an offensive weapon and a public nuisance.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Holy Progress

          But plug removal is a rather extreme way to deal with the castle

          I would say that butt plug removal is rather an extreme way of dealing with anything, let alone a castle...

          <coughs>

          1. Scott 53

            Re: Holy Progress

            <coughs>

            Just be careful when you do that, OK?

        2. Sequin

          Re: Holy Progress

          "Luckily they didn't dig too deep. Or straight down. The Rock being a volcanic plug and all. Which I guess also goes towards explaining the... strange character(s) of Glasgow on account of the high radon levels."

          They pump the Radon 50 miles to Glasgow?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Holy Progress

        While not wishing to exclude the option of dungeon incarceration, I'd first like the protesters to be subject to testing for psycho-active substances and psychiatric assessment. They might also be invited to share their clearly detailed academic comprehension of the 63 clauses of Magna Carter with the ignorant masses to support the aim of returning the nation to the paradise it was back in 1215.

    3. John PM Chappell
      Boffin

      Re: Holy Progress

      Close but the actual wording is "naught in my sight" (as in, nothing, not worthy of notice) not naughty ;)

  3. aregross

    Live Long and Prosper

    I guess it's time to start making/selling "We the 25, or the 4... or the 1" T-Shirts

  4. Cederic Silver badge

    Sumption is wrong

    While the Magna Carta was indeed deeply elitist regarding to whom it provided protections, it was an articulation of the rule of law as priority to the whim of the King.

    That concept has been core to British culture and eventual parliamentary democracy for over 800 years now. The Magna Carta should not be dismissed as merely a bunch of nobles expressing self-interest.

    If nothing else, check clause 40: https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/magna-carta-english-translation

    1. Alan Bourke

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      It's 'Magna Carta', not 'the Magna Carta'.

      1. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        I have a copy in my house. It's a thing. I can pick it up, I can show it to visitors. It's tangible and it exists. Just as the original is on paper, the Magna Carta is the name of a document, and using 'the' is not inappropriate even if some people choose to omit it.

        I'm not sure that Great Charter is any better than referring to the Greater Charter, and while it may be common parlance amongst historians I skipped history at school and use English instead. Sorry.

        Perhaps just celebrate that I didn't call it the Magners Carter.

        1. TRT Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          I have one too. Framed and kept on the hallway. A heavy, weapons grade, frame. Useful in matters of home defence.

        2. HAL-9000

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          It's definitely 'Magna Carta', and not 'the Magna Carta'... Latin has no definitive article

          You'd think that the UK parliament might know it's proper reference

          here

          1. gandalfcn Silver badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            Yes, but we are using a Latin description English not Latin in Latin. and i English we can please ourselves.

          2. sabroni Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Latin has no definitive article

            Good job we're conversing in English then.

            1. gandalfcn Silver badge

              Re: Latin has no definitive article

              Ouch!

          3. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            The document's title is "Magna Carta", Fair enough.

            But when referred to as an object or concept ( as it often is) it's the Magna Carta, or even a Magna Carta - if there was more than one.

          4. Jonathan Richards 1 Silver badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            > it's proper reference

            *its

            Muphry strikes again!

        3. Swarthy
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Isn't Magners Carter the bloke that delivers the cider to the pub?

        4. Malcolm Weir

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Technically, using "the" when referring to a copy of the thing is entirely reasonable. But it's not the thing itself.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        "It's 'Magna Carta', not 'the Magna Carta'."

        And doesn't that roughly translate as "Big Page"? So, the first broadsheet?

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      Cederic,

      It's much more complicated than that. Magna Carta was important. After all William Marshal (Earl of Pembroke, mentioned at the top) ended the civil war by re-issuing it on behalf of John's son Henry III (who was 9 at the time). John having conveniently snuffed it before his barons could get hold of him. Although he missed out the vital clause 61 about the 25 barons who could tell the king what to do.

      Several subsequent kings then proclaimed it upon taking the throne as a way of saying they weren't going to be too nasty to the barons. On the other hand, Henry III wasn't exactly all that keen on it - and so there was another civil war with Simon de Montfort and co.

      But after a while, it all got a bit forgotten. Obviously there was conflict between the king and the barons over power, but that changed in every reign. And so for a while, poor Magna Carta had died in vein - it was just another historical incident in an ongoing conflict over power between elites. Until memory of it was revived much later, as a rallying cry or a historical precendent for people to look to. For a long while it was actually bigger in American poliltics - since it was talked about a lot by the people who wrote the constitution. I believe the monument to it at Runnymede was actually paid for by an American historical society, rather than by us.

      So while I think it's a bit glib to say that it was immediately forgotten, it has periodically waxed and waned in importance - sometimes being used as an important example or ideal to emulate, at others pretty much irrelevant. There's probably a professor of the study of mentions of Magna Carta throughout history somewhere, who's got a very long and dull book they could sell you about it.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        "it has periodically waxed and waned in importance"

        Not least because John immediately tried to get it revoked so his disputes continued.

      2. Anonymous IV
        Happy

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        > And so for a while, poor Magna Carta had died in vein - it was just another historical incident in an ongoing conflict over power between elites.

        If it "died in vein" obviously the blood-letting went too far...

        1. adam 40 Silver badge

          I prescribe you all....

          ... a course of leeches.

        2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Coat

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Anonymous IV,

          Oh bugger!

          She died in vein then, while donating a pint of blood. Even though that’s nearly an arm full…

      3. Malcolm Weir

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        @I ain't Spartacus The Runnymede thing was actually from the American Bar Association, so lawyers not historians.

        There is (or was) a copy of Magna Carta in the rotunda of the National Archives building in Washington, DC. The only other documents there are the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which just goes to prove your point....

        This copy is apparently one of 17 in existence of the various versions. 15 are in British institutions (Salisbury, Lincoln, Durham and Hereford Cathedrals, the British Library, the Bodlean, etc), one is in Canberra to remind the Aussies whose Ashes they are (err, I may have made that bit up) and then this one in the US, which is, bizarrely, privately owned: by H. Ross Perot (when I saw it) and now by the Carlyle Group. Perot gets brownie points for selling it to raise money for troops injured in the Afghanistan/Iraq wars....

        [ However, the US copy is of the 1297 version, so lacks clause 61 which totally explicitly says you don't have to wear a mask during a global pandemic: "Onay owerpay aymay equireray asksmay otay ebay ornway", and that anyone whose rights under that clause were violated shall be compensated by being awarded the village known as Slough... ]

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Happy

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Malcolm Weir,

          Thank you. By the way, if any of your anti-vaxxers want Slough, we’re perfectly willing to ship it to you at our own expense. Free of obligation or price. Though no later returns will be accepted…

        2. gandalfcn Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          I'm surprised the godbotherers haven't demanded the Bible be there as well, and a few guns courtesy of the NRA.

        3. Sequin

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          A friend of mine, who has since retired from the British Library, had to take a copy of Magna Carta to Australia for their bicentenary in 1988. They both travelled business class, and dear old Magna had her own seat.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      It never applied in Scotland and right up until today Scots law is different from English law, so they might as well be quoting the US constitution for all the good it'll do them.

      1. Ken G
        Trollface

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        The only relevant bit is that it does promise Northumberland to Scotland. Maybe they can go reclaim it?

        1. WanderingHaggis

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Indeed according to it the border is in the wrong place.

          1. Falmari Silver badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            Not according to the Treaty of York 1237 ;)

        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          "The only relevant bit is that it does promise Northumberland to Scotland. Maybe they can go reclaim it?"

          On the other hand, the Scots stole Edinburgh from the Kingdom of Northumbria. Maybe we should take that back and Sturgeon can move to Glasgow?

          1. sam 12

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            Sturgeon's home actually is in Glasgow

            She commutes to Edinburgh and stays over occasionally at the official residence of the First Minister in Edinburgh - Bute House

        3. philipsarts
          Holmes

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          Claim Northumberland from the English? Are ya mad?

      2. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        Aye, they should have cited the Declaration of Arbroath.

        tl:dr- Scot's are sovereign not subjects, and any ruler who claims otherwise can get tae France.

        1. gandalfcn Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          "Scot's are sovereign" Correct. but the servile Little e\nglsanders and Gammon diverse don't understand freedom and self determination, they prefer to be told what to do by their "betters" aka Tory politicians and the aristocracy.

      3. General Purpose Bronze badge

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        > they might as well be quoting the US constitution for all the good it'll do them

        Well quite. And when they bang on about "we the people" that's exactly what they are doing.

        This action was at the milder end of the Clause 61 myths, which also involve sending the Queen an affidavit removing your consent to be governed. Rational Wiki is great fun on this, if you have a few minutes - https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Lawful_rebellion_and_the_Magna_Carta

        1. RegGuy1 Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          "we the people" and "sovereign" -- they sound like brexiters to me. That they fail to understand so much British (English and Scottish) history just reinforces that thought.

          1. idiot taxpayer here again
            Facepalm

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            @RegGuy1

            if you MUST bring fucking Brexit into the conversation get your facts right. It was the remainers who demanded on behalf of the "people" another referendum referred to as "The People's Referendum" (or vote depending on how posh they thought they were)..

            1. gandalfcn Silver badge

              Re: Sumption is wrong

              If you cast your mind back it was your Messiah Farage who said if the vote was close it should not be accepted. A fact all Brexiteers run away from because it totally destroys their lies.

              1. Sam Liddicott

                Re: Sumption is wrong

                Farage wasn't parliament though, was he?

                And parliament didn't take his advice so they voted through other voting rules.

          2. My other car WAS an IAV Stryker Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            "[T]hey sound like brexiters to me."

            With the paedo claims, more like Qanon followers, who also tried to claim a public building (US Capitol) was theirs despite a police presence.

            1. J. Cook Silver badge
              Joke

              Re: Sumption is wrong

              There is an overlap between Qanon and the "Sovereign Citizen" movement.

              Now if you'll excuse me, there's another movement I need to take.... in the restroom, which is a more productive version of what those folks spout. :D :D :D

              1. nijam Silver badge

                Re: Sumption is wrong

                > .... in the restroom

                And will you also wee the people?

            2. gandalfcn Silver badge

              Re: Sumption is wrong

              "more like Qanon". And all Trump/GUO. Very similar, none of them actually know anything about the documents they cite other than lying Kevin McCarthy.

              1. Cliffwilliams44 Bronze badge

                Re: Sumption is wrong

                And yet the current President has violated the constitution more times in 7 months then any President in history!

                1. Martin Silver badge

                  Re: Sumption is wrong

                  I'm curious. What exactly has he done that violated the constitution?

                2. georgezilla

                  Re: Sumption is wrong

                  Well please list these times that he did.

                  And the specific article that he did.

                  Oh wait.

                  You can't.

                  Because you have neve reat the Constitution.

                  Then let's compare that list to the list of times and things that Trump violated.

                  Oh and ...........

                  Bullshit.

          3. gandalfcn Silver badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            Indeed. But Brexiteers tell us they know everything.

      4. T. F. M. Reader Silver badge

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        @Dan 55: they might as well be quoting the US constitution

        Where do you think the "we the people" bit comes from?

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      it was an articulation of the rule of law as priority to the whim of the King.

      Correct, and in many ways it was one of the first very important political reforms ever made.

      In the USA our Constitution says that we have the right to PEACEABLY assemble and address our greivences etc.. So rioting is COMPLETELY out of the question as far as the law is concerned. I'm sure in the UK it's pretty much the same. Using bad interpretations of the Magna Charta to justify lawlessness is pretty stupid.

      But rioting gets attention, especially from the media, making these people "attention whores" and not protesters. [similar criticism applies to riots in MY country as well] When you riot, you draw attention to YOU (like a child having a tantrum). When you protest peacefully, you draw attention to YOUR CAUSE (which becomes part of the solution).

      A thousand people marching peacefully with signs and bullhorns makes a very big message for politicians. Or maybe just one guy with a sandwich board marching up and down a street [or wearing a Guy Fawkes mask in protest] is a simple enough message that's also both peaceful and law abiding. And it generally draws attention to the message, not to the messenger.

      What these people did (trying to storm the castle) just makes them look like idiots.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Oh I think they went above and beyond just "look like".

      2. katrinab Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        The Magna Carta means three things:

        Any local government reorganisations that take place from time to time leave out The City of London

        The Church of England has a right to exist

        When you get arrested, you have the right to a fair trial before being jailed.

        The first two are not relevant to Scotland. But there are provisions elsewhere that have a similar effect in Scotland in relation to point 2 (re The Church of Scotland) and point 3. The City of Edinburgh can be, and frequently is reorganised.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          >The Church of England has a right to exist

          Fscking far sighted for 1215

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            Well it was just called the church then. But still run locally - given that most the bishops were aristocrats rather than in it for God. So obviously the Pope is the big boss on Earth, but he'd struggle to get anything done in England without getting the Arch Bish of Canterbury onside.

            However Magna Carta meant that the Kind couldn't interfere with the church courts for example. Justice for the clergy was an awful lot less rough, if they were even found guilty, than for everybody esle at the time. This created a lot of friction in university towns, where the whole thing being run by the church meant that if the students wrecked a bar, or stole from a shop, they were tried in the church's courts - not the towns. Which were rather notorious for taking the student's side - and handing out very lenient sentences, if they even did find them guilty. Very annoying. Very unpopular.

        2. RegGuy1 Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          "When you get arrested, you have the right to a fair trial before being jailed."

          :-)

        3. Paul Herber Silver badge

          Re: Sumption is wrong

          'When you get arrested, you have the right to a fair trial before being jailed.'

          When you get arrested, you have the right to a fair trial before being hanged.

          FTFY

          1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Sumption is wrong

            'When you get arrested, you are jailed until at some point we decide we can give you a fair trial before being hanged'

            FTFYB

      3. the Jim bloke Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: Sumption is wrong

        making these people "attention whores" and not protesters.

        As a side note, I object to the negative association of whores with these people.

        Whores provide a useful function in society, and have a credible claim to the 'the worlds oldest profession'.

        While village idiot may come pretty close to the same antiquity, it wasnt until social media took off that they have managed to unionize...

    5. Hawkeye Pierce

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      As the well known historian Tony Hancock once said:

      Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

    6. Lin Lin the Magnanimous

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      Perhaps the more relevant text to explore the concept of the limits of the powers of monarchs would be the Declaration of Arbroath, given that Edinburgh is in Scotland...

    7. sam 12

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      Cederic - "British" culture didn't exist 800 years ago

      You may also have not noticed that "Magna Carta" has no bearing on Scots Law in slightest, it's a purely English Law concept

      As for "parliamentary democracy" - ha ha ha ha ha ha - that doesn't exist either, even since the union of parliaments in 1707

    8. gandalfcn Silver badge

      Re: Sumption is wrong

      The Scots had similar things long before the English.

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    So not quite as effective as a Rag Day occupation of the Tower of London when someone had noticed that the guard hut door opened outwards. Visit the Tower with a long enough rope wound round the waist...

    Wow, was that nearly 60 years ago?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Always thought castle doors should open outwards.

      Your besieging orc army looks a right bunch of eejits bashing against the door with Gronk and missing the "Pull" sign

      1. dinsdale54

        "Midvale Castle for the Gifted"

        1. J. Cook Silver badge

          You get an upvote for the Far Side Reference, good sir!

  6. Alan Bourke

    Magna Carta there ...

    written in French and revoked the year after.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Magna Carta there ...

      Written in latin (not french). Revoked the year after by getting the Pope to rule that poor old John was forced into signing it - the precious little darling. But then re-introduced on behalf of Henry III by his regent William the Marshal. The coolest knight with the best back-story ever. Really, look the guy up.

      Saved from execution at age 6, for being too cute to kill. He was a hostage for his father's castle. Daddy refused to hand it over to King Stephen and stood on his battlements with his arm round his wife and said, "I have both the hammer and the anvil to make more sons!" Which is a tad harsh. Sent off to Normandy to learn arms. Proved to be bloody amazing at the tournaments. Went on crusade. Kicked arse on behalf of Henry II's son Henry, joined him in rebellion against Daddy. Then fought for Henry II against the rebelling (again) Richard (soon to be the First and the Lionheart) - defeated and unhorsed Richard in single combat. Then served him after Henry II died. Got rid of by John. Then ended the civil war as regent to John's son Henry III while in his 70s.

      Known, at the time, as the greatest knight in Christendom

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Magna Carta there ...

        Also regularly top of the tournaments when there wasn't any real fighting until his 60s - and there was no Seniors' circuit then (actually, with warfare being what it was there probably weren't many Seniors anyway).

  7. Mockduncan

    It was a lovely day for a coup

    I can't believe the world's media was focused on Afghanistan when this was going on in Edinburgh.

    1. EricM
      FAIL

      Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

      Yep. No cause, lousy timing, bad case of "no, you didn't do your research" ...

      Is it the case that my sensivity for shamelessly (often proudly) displayed stupidity and inorance in public has risen in the last, say, 10-15 years or is the average western IQ - not only of young people - really in a free-fall?

      1. John G Imrie

        Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

        The average IQ of a population is always 100, that's how it works.

        https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-average-iq-2795284

        1. EricM

          Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

          Yeah, which does not mean that the average IQ can not fall in absolute terms while still being called "100" :)

        2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

          Just like money, it needs to be adjusted for inflation current stupidity.

          1. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

            You mean my IQ has gone up steadily for the last 20 years? That's great!

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

              >You mean my IQ has gone up steadily for the last 20 years? That's great!

              No it means everyone else's has

              1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. cmdrklarg

            Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

            If only stupidity were painful...

            1. Just A Quick Comment

              Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

              "My brain hurts!"

            2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

              >If only stupidity were painful...

              Only when it comes to using soldering irons

              1. stu_san
                Childcatcher

                Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

                >>If only stupidity were painful...

                >Only when it comes to using soldering irons

                Or when the idiot says, "Here, hold my beer!"

              2. philipsarts

                Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

                Soldering irons? Hot glue guns are sneakier .

              3. A K Stiles
                Mushroom

                Re: The average IQ of a population is always 100

                Oh gods! You've reminded me of the time I paused in some soldering to use both hands for a task and held the fully-functioning soldering iron sideways between my teeth for a second. Hard to escape the smell of scorched hair and flesh when the source is within a couple of inches of your nostrils!

                Learned a lesson well that day!

        3. SundogUK Silver badge

          Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

          The global average will always equal 100 but the average per country can vary considerably...

      2. Arthur the cat Silver badge

        Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

        10-15 years corresponds to the rise of social media (Farcebook 2004, Twitter 2006, etc). Once this sort of idiocy would have only been covered by local news, except maybe during the silly season (and we've got a llama death watch for that this year, plus serious stuff in Afghanistan). Now social media lets anybody post "look at me making a twat of myself" items and they go viral as everybody goes "look at this twat being a twat".

        1. Rich 11 Silver badge

          Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

          Coup d'twat.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

            Hee, yes, A Very British Coup d'Twat :-)

          2. Arthur the cat Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

            That is a phrase that really ought to become mainstream. It deserves an icon or two.

      3. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

        Gave you an upvote, but I think the reality is that Social Meeja gives fools support and reinforcements. Or to put it another way, once there was just one idiot per village, but now they're all on Facebook together.

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: It was a lovely day for a coup

      Nah,

      A good day to bury bad news.

      memories of 11th Sept 2001 and someone in the gubbermint deciding that it was the best time to reveal something bad.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just tell 'em to

    Buggereth offeth

    1. Ken G

      Re: Just tell 'em to

      There are a range of more local expressions which could also be used, though I think the guard started in the right place with "Aye right".

    2. Test Man

      Re: Just tell 'em to

      Bugger ye off*

      as said by Rowan Atkinson in Bernard and the Genie - seriously go watch it, brilliant stuff especially Rowan's acting

      1. RegGuy1 Silver badge

        Re: Just tell 'em to

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E052viZGyw0

        And Alan Cummings and Lenny Henry. I'd forgotten about this. Brilliant. Thanks.

      2. Inventor of the Marmite Laser

        Re: Just tell 'em to

        I was thinking about Rick Wakeman saying that what Melin (or maybe Arthur - can't remember) said to the Black Knight, whilst he was introducing part of The Myths and Legends of King Arthur at Wembley, donkeys years ago.

        1. DJO Silver badge

          Re: Just tell 'em to

          Overheard at a conference of wizards:

          Merlin: I said, "Arthur, if you want a sword at this time of night, you can jump in the bloody lake"

          From "The Horde of the Things" by A. P. R. Marshall and J. H. W. Lloyd.

    3. Bob Scrantzen

      Re: Just tell 'em to

      Surely only the good folks of Morningside would say that?

      The Chanty-mouthed Big Yin might suggest "Getifubasas!"

      (I know he's from Glasgow. I don't know Edinburgh slang)

      1. Franco Silver badge

        Re: Just tell 'em to

        They don't have any, slang is for plebs at the other side of the country according to most Edinburghers. Too busy putting sauce on their chips for slang.

        1. Havin_it

          Re: Just tell 'em to

          I can never understand how property prices are so high in Edinburgh when "most" of us seem to live in weegies' heads rent-free.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is it possible to

    arrest the lot of them for being too fucking stupid for a Darwin award?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Is it possible to

      Tell em to paint themselves blue and come back when they've learned an Oz accent

  10. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse Silver badge

    What a bunch of muppets...

    One can only imagine how earnestly hilarious their "pre-assault" planning meetings must have been. I assume something akin to that in the film Four Lions.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: What a bunch of muppets...

      The four baw heids?

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Mushroom

      Re: What a bunch of muppets...

      What we need is, suicide crows...

    3. Fr. Ted Crilly

      Re: What a bunch of muppets...

      Nah, breaking into the sewers to kidnap pilate's wife...

    4. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: What a bunch of muppets...

      I find this reference to "muppets" offensive to those performing in the Muppet Show. At least those on the show had some class.

      1. First Light Silver badge

        Re: What a bunch of muppets...

        And definitely more brains than this lot. . .

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Och aye the noo!

    Let us in ya bin yin!

  12. teebie

    So, they have misguided beliefs, based on an assumptions that an archaic, Latin, legal document has force of law in modern times.

    And the Procurator Fiscal will decide what action should be taken against them.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      > the Procurator Fiscal will decide what action should be taken against them.

      So they have a very much guided belief that an archaic latin titled official will go after them

  13. JPeasmould

    So they try to use a foreign law that doesn't even apply in the country in which it was written.

    Article 61 was removed a year after Magna Carta was given the royal seal. Even if it had applied to the general population, which it didn't, it's been null and void for over 800 years.

    This is almost as funny as the protestors against the BBC trying to occupy a building the BBC disposed of 8 years ago.

    Someone should teach these people that research involves more than visiting websites that reinforce their absurd beliefs.

    But it is funny. I wonder what's next....

    1. Rich 11 Silver badge

      I wonder what's next....

      Some form of Covid denialism, I expect.

      1. DiViDeD Silver badge

        Re: Some form of Covid denialism, I expect.

        Nah, I can't see such a thing happening. Nobody would be THAT stupid.

        Oh, wait ...

  14. MarkET

    Castling

    Too many deep fried Haribos.

    Reminds me of a tale from Oxford...

    A young scholar sitting an exam demanded to be served a pint of beer as he understood it to be a right. The pint was duly served. The next day he was fined £5 for failing to wear a clean sword in attendance at an exam.

    Who knows.

    1. Ken G

      Re: Castling

      I heard the same story about TCD.

    2. Dave314159ggggdffsdds Silver badge

      Re: Castling

      That's a very old legend, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it so unfortunately it's just another apocryphal tale.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Castling

      On half forgotten out dated laws....

      Wasn't it perfectly legal for an Englishman to shoot Scots with a bow and arrow?

      1. Is It Me

        Re: Castling

        Depending on what border you are near you will hear different versions, usually it is expressed as within a towns walls after midnight.

        First time I heard was about shooting Welshman in Shrewsbury, and also heard it for Chester (again shooting the Welsh)

        1. Allan George Dyer Silver badge
          Pirate

          Re: Castling

          Prince Henry decreed a curfew on Welshmen in Chester: "…all manner of Welsh persons or Welsh sympathies should be expelled from the city; that no Welshman should enter the city before sunrise or tarry in it after sunset, under pain of decapitation.”

          Although I hasten to add that I do not recommend shooting or decapitating Welshmen or Scotsmen in Shrewsbury or Chester, in any and all combinations.

          1. Mog_X

            Re: Castling

            .... well, there go my holiday plans.

      2. DiViDeD Silver badge

        Re: Castling

        Wasn't it perfectly legal for an Englishman to shoot Scots with a bow and arrow?

        You mean it isn't anymore? Excuse me - I have a hunting trip to cancel.

  15. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Social Media

    Breaking human brains since 2004.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Social Media

      Peddling brain numbing addiction since 2004

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mars Bar

    Not to be too po faced about things but I was born and lived in Scotland until I was 25 and I still (aged 60ish) visit there frequently.

    I have never in my life eaten a deep fried Mars Bar and have never seen one on offer in any establishment in Scotland.

    The only place I have ever seen them was in a chip shop in Southsea on the south coast of England.

    I have seen plenty of deep fried pizza, however, and even tried it once. It was truly disgusting.

    1. Ken G
      Holmes

      Re: Mars Bar

      You hadn't your eyes open - The Castle Rock chipper across the Grassmarket offers them. They have a sign in the window and everything.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Mars Bar

        I think Blue Lagoon will do them if you ask?

    2. Dave559 Silver badge

      Re: Mars Bar

      There are chip shops in touristy areas that will sell them to anyone daft enough to want one (I think there is at least one of the chip shops on Edinburgh's Royal Mile that does), but, yes, I'm pretty sure that hardly anyone eats them normally.

      Deep fried Mars bars were invented in a chip shop in Scotland, the story got picked up by the media, and so there was a brief fad of some people being curious to try them. Sadly, the "legend" still lives on, as these things tend to do.

      There is at least some truth that chip shops (possibly not just Scottish ones) will dip all sorts of things in batter and fry them (hence the horrible deep-fried pizzas, which really ought to make any self-respecting Italian-Scot chip shop owner feel the shame of many generations of their ancestors upon them). On the other hand: pakora! Unfortunately, the fact that "munchie boxes" (look them up) are quite popular items in some chip shops sadly speaks for itself!

      1. WanderingHaggis

        Re: Mars Bar

        Pakora and chips with curry sauce -- bliss for a student in the late 70s.Spam fritters were good too but no mars bars back then.

        It always struck me as a weird cultural difference, English fish and chip shops have cod, huss and other types of fish; but a Glasgow chippy has only one fish (further details unavailable) but also pizza, spam fritters, chicken, pakora, haggis, black pudding, mars bars the list goes on and on. Why?

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

          Re: Mars Bar

          Friend of mine at university back in the 70s came from a family that ran a Chinese chippy in the southwest: they sold fish and chips, sweet and sour pork balls with rice, chow mein, pizzas. If it was vaguely edible and regular customers wanted it, they'd serve it.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Mars Bar

            As a kid we used to buy our chips from "Pang's Garden - fish and chips, and kebabs"

            (they took over from a Cypriot family but only really changed the name over the door, despite adding a few Chinese offerings to the menu)

        2. Cliffwilliams44 Bronze badge

          Re: Mars Bar

          2 weeks in London for meetings, I only survived due to Fish-n-Chip shops.

    3. AlanS
      Linux

      Re: Mars Bar

      I've even seen one eaten: I was getting a haggis supper from the Hooked & Cooked chippy while waiting for the Brodick-Ardrossan ferry, and the next customer bought a Mars for his young boy. Messy.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Mars Bar

      A couple of months ago a chippy near Glasgow deep fried a Colin the Caterpillar Cake:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56955873

    5. John Sager

      Re: Mars Bar

      A chippy near us (East Anglia), no longer extant, used to do them but it was a bit of a joke. As others have pointed out, disgusting. The ingredients are great in other contexts but not together!

    6. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Mars Bar

      I volunteered taking foreign students on a tour of Edinburgh, and they went on about stupid and unhealthy Scots eating deep fried Mars Bars. I stated we don't, so they went into the nearest chippy about bought one. They loved it and asked if I wanted a taste; I did not.

      They asked me when Edinburgh Castle was built and I didn't know, but they were getting on my tits by then so I made something up. "It was in fact the original Strasbourg Castle, but the Scottish king loved it so much he bought it and had it shipped stone by stone to Edinburgh."

      That'll teach them.

    7. Chris G Silver badge

      Re: Mars Bar

      If you should ever find yourself down and out in Ibiza, go to Kilties Bar in San Antonio, they have a chippy attached to the bar that will provide a range of deep fried items.

      In fact, the only limitation really is if the item is too big to fit in the frier.

      If you turn up after about ten o clock in the evening it can be very entertaining just to people watch but be prepared to run.

      "Wha' you lookin' a'?"

      The boss is a petit Scots lass who is harder than Jimmy Boyle.

    8. Citizen of Nowhere

      Re: Mars Bar

      >I have seen plenty of deep fried pizza, however, and even tried it once. It was truly disgusting.

      No doubt true if you take some shop-bought crap and ram it into a fish fryer. Done right, the Italian way (or more correctly the Pugliese way), fried pizza is delicious:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerotti

      1. lybad

        Re: Mars Bar

        When I worked in Glasgow I used to get deep fried pizza from the chippy on Buchanan Street next to the south entrance to the underground/subway/clockwork Orange. Used to find them really tasty, but you could feel your heart working overtime.

        My daughter used to get deep fried Freddo's after swimming on a Friday. Another part of Scotland though. Look disgusting though.

        1. Franco Silver badge

          Re: Mars Bar

          I was at Uni in St Andrews, the chippy there used to offer deep fried Creme Eggs at Easter. Also used to work with a guy who said his daughter's favourite part of their annual trip to Stonehaven was the chippy there, which would deep fry Tunnock's Tea Cakes.

          1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Mars Bar

            The most important part of Infinity War.

            https://preview.redd.it/yakdl1simqg11.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c04503cefbbc7236c383d4c03cae3fde5ce77c63.

            Icon - Post pint nosh (If that's your preference).

            1. Franco Silver badge

              Re: Mars Bar

              A rumble of laughter did go round the cinema when I saw that, packed cinema on premiere night. We all loved that Marvel had gone to the effort of putting in a local joke.

    9. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: Mars Bar

      Try deep fried ice cream, it might have worked with cleaner oil in the fryer.

      Not Scotland but in the region of 1000 islands in Ontario.

      Icon - Needed to purge the memory of the experience (Unsuccessfully the more observant of you will note).

    10. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Mars Bar

      Local chippy in Poole, Dorset does it.

      Never been in there, rather go to any other chippy

    11. Dagg

      Re: Mars Bar

      Born in the southern part of NZ to Scottish mother. She deep fried everything. The chip pan was permanently on the stove top.

      She couldn't get a mars bar but used moro which is similar. Now on blood pressure and heart meds. Bugger.

    12. DiViDeD Silver badge

      Re: Mars Bar

      I have never in my life eaten a deep fried Mars Bar

      I'm sure there must be a 'no true scotsman' joke in there somewhere, but for the life of me I can't find it.

    13. Malcolm Weir

      Re: Mars Bar

      Re: Deep fried pizza...

      I complete disagree that DFP is "disgusting". Granted, it's not obviously related to any other food named "pizza", but having eaten any number of them while walking through Tollcross en route to Murrayfield, they make a pretty nifty fried-food-on-the-go.

      For those who haven't experienced this thing, the recipe is simple: get the cheapest frozen pizzas you can from the cash-and-carry. Fold frozen thing in half. Fry in hot oil until no longer frozen. Eat.

    14. Havin_it

      Re: Mars Bar

      Oh, it's a thing. My local (in Leith) will do one on request.

      For a while (~20yrs ago) there was a real silly-season where every choccy/confectionery item imaginable was given the treatment in the name of science.

      Nowadays however ... I recently asked the aforementioned local if they'd do me a Crunchie (I remembered hearing these were especially good) but was declined. They told me they only do Mars bars because it is unique among mainstream choccy-bars in being certified nut-free, so on those rare occasions they actually do one it won't contaminate the fryer.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The key bit of information was left out, how many of them were English?

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      They were local loons.

      1. Mark 85 Silver badge

        They were local loons.

        Are you sure? They certainly sounded like some of the nutters here in the States,

  18. heyrick Silver badge

    As a Scot, I say...

    Give that policemen a medal. "Aye okay" (twice) is a brilliantly restrained response to extreme fickwittery.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: As a Scot, I say...

      Agree!

      Instead of whipping out the nightstick/taser/assault rifle (depending on region) and yelling "You feel lucky, punk?", he showed great restraint and avoided confrontation. If only all police officers worldwide could be that level-headed...

    2. Avatar of They
      Thumb Up

      Re: As a Scot, I say...

      Obviously read the situation and summed up exactly what he was dealing with and went for "Mental health issues." So changed to a calming and caring approach instead of riot shields and tear gas.

      Brilliant.

  19. werdsmith Silver badge

    "Aye, OK. No worries at all" is a class response by the policeman. Absolutely brilliant.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    *As a Scot, the author sees it as his right to make fun of Scots.

    As another Scot, damn right - the old rules still apply, you can take the piss out of your own as much as you want but hell mend any outsiders doing the same ;)

    1. Hazmoid

      Re: *As a Scot, the author sees it as his right to make fun of Scots.

      As an Aussie, that attitude must have come from the old country, i.e. as an Aussie I reserve the right to rip my fellow countrymen when ever they screw up but am willing to defend them if someone outside the country tries it on.

    2. Toolman83

      Re: *As a Scot, the author sees it as his right to make fun of Scots.

      In nobody going to post the Skinner - Groundskeeper Wullie interaction "you Scots sure a contentious bunch" meme???

  21. Mike Richards Silver badge

    Edinburgh Castle

    I assume they thought that's where the BBC was based?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/09/confused-anti-vaccine-protesters-storm-bbc-hq-years-after-moved-out

    Facebook really is doing wonders for the intelligence of the public - just not in the right way.

  22. Floydian Slip
    Facepalm

    Isn't the castle also a garrison for some 600 of the UK's finest fighting chaps?

    Would have been interesting to see what might have happened should things have escalated. And if so, it's no wonder the copper was so chilled

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Devil

      > should things have escalated

      You mean, if the attackers had threatened to unfriend the cop on Facebook?

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sounds like SovCits/Freemen

    Probably all whacked on Spice?

    CUAnon?

  24. Herring`

    Did she die in vain?

    Disappointed that nobody has referenced the Hancock.

  25. Triggerfish

    So its war then!

    I'm just curious but if they really want to be sovereign citizens, then why not? They can be if they like, should be fun playing you and whose army considering they have now tried to seize Edinburgh castle, 20 idiots vs the Black Watch should be fun.

    We can send the army round and plant flags in their gardens, go all colonial on them.

  26. Bogle

    Bampots

    Only 20 o' these bampots? Where were the rest? We all know there are moar and moar of these emboldened eejits about.

    Probably a case of "The People's Front of Judea" hating other lunatic fringe groups' conspiracy theories. Romans Go Home, indeed.

    1. Paul Herber Silver badge

      Re: Bampots

      Bidh an fheadhainn ris an canar na romansan a ’dol chun taigh

      1. First Light Silver badge

        Re: Bampots

        Téigí abhaile, a Rómhánaigh!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bampots

      These are obviously your elite of elite bampots!

      Bet David Icke turned down their invite to join in

  27. Mike 137 Silver badge

    "Edinburgh Castle now belongs to we the people."

    Lessons in law are obviously needed as Magna Carta applied only to England and in any case its provisions have been largely overridden by successions of subsequent legislation, but lessons in grammar are clearly also needed.

    Surely - "belongs to us"?

    1. First Light Silver badge

      Re: "Edinburgh Castle now belongs to we the people."

      No it's correct, as in:

      "All your castle are belong to us"

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Edinburgh Castle now belongs to we the people."

      "Wee the people"?

  28. John Savard Silver badge

    Problems

    I don't have a problem with the notion that the Magna Carta lays out fundamental human rights which now apply to all citizens of the United Kingdom, not just Englishmen.

    I do have a problem with kooks who are against taking precautions against the spread of COVID-19, though.

    So to me this article seemed to have the wrong angle.

    1. The Indomitable Gall

      Re: Problems

      Well you're clearly not particularly concerned with actual law, because it's a matter of basic fact that it doesn't apply in Scotland. Whether you have a "problem" with this or not, it's just how the law works.

  29. Franco Silver badge

    Kevin Bridges

    I feel a quote coming on. What's the difference between Edinburgh and Glasgow? If a gun goes off in Edinburgh, it's one o'clock.

  30. Anonymous South African Coward Silver badge

    I AM DEMANDING FREE HAGGIS-BASED MEALS EVERY DAY FOR ALL CITIZENS, IN PERPETUITY, UNDER ARTICLE 61 OF THE MAGNA CARTA WHICH IS TOTALLY A REAL THING THAT GENUINELY APPLIES HERE

    *shudder* if that happens, I'm off to Mars on the first available transport option...

    1. Robert Moore
      Joke

      I believe if you read it carefully. You will find that ARTICLE 61 OF THE MAGNA CARTA, equally applies to Mars and to all spacecraft heading to or from Mars.

      Do you even read!?!???!!????!?

      1. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Pint

        The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one.

        1. Robert Moore
          Pint

          > The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one.

          Yeah, but those million to 1 chances happen 9 times out of 10.

          1. anonymousI
            Coat

            Didn't your parents tell you a million times not to exaggerate?

    2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Deep fried Mars?

      Icon - Chip pan fire!

  31. DS999 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Soverign citizens

    I see you have an equivalent to the "sovereign citizen" movement in the US, with the same brand of right wing loonies to boot!

  32. Ace2

    Lost me right at the start

    “Exactly what the problem was remains unclear”

    The problem is that the average human is unbelievably stupid…

  33. martinusher Silver badge

    Flattering, but still nonsensical

    This type of sovereign citizen nonsense is a direct import from the US, a country that claims its constitution and legal traditions are ultimately based on documents like the Magna Carta. So these people are just demonstrating a profound ignorance of just about everything (which I suspect is par for the course these days).

    Sovereign citizen types need to bear in mind what could be called Political Rule Zero -- "Political Power Grows Out Of the Barrel Of a Gun". Or, in the immortal (and Scottish accented) words of Shrek, "You and whose army?". In the US we have the much abused Second Amendment which allows the citizens to own all sorts of (militarily speaking) relatively harmless weaponry which allows these sorts of people to fantasize about directly confronting the government but the reality is that their notions of dragging legislators and judges to jail are going to run headlong into the Deep State (aka "The Rest Of Us"). (Meanwhile our country is littered with militarily useless, but still lethal, weaponry which invariably gets used against family members and random strangers.)

    1. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

      Militarily useless? And the US military just got their ass handed to them by a bunch of 7th century savages with AK's

    2. Cliffwilliams44 Bronze badge

      Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

      "(Meanwhile our country is littered with militarily useless, but still lethal, weaponry which invariably gets used against family members and random strangers.)"

      Again, as is always the case with the "Gun control brainwashed class", you are wrong!

      A very small number of killings in the US are committed by "legal" gun owners, an even smaller number are committed with rifles, and an even "very" smaller number are committed using what are "erroneously" classified as Assault Rifles (do you even know what AR stands for? ... No, it does not, again you are wrong!")

      The majority of killings in America are committed by repeat criminals using illegally obtained "handguns"!

      In the 1990's in NYC and other cities across the US the policies of "Stop and frisk" and "Broken Windows" (arresting people for minor crimes BEFORE they could become career criminals) were implemented and crime rates and murders dropped exponentially. Unfortunately these policies were labeled racist by the Leftist activist not because they actually were but because they were making minority communities safer. The Left just can't have minorities living a decent life in America! The Left knows the truth but will never admit it. The reason most of the people arrested by these laws are black is not because they are black, it is because they are black criminals!

      I could go on about how the Left in America destroyed functioning black society, that thrived even under the yoke of segregation, with their "so called" compassionate social programs but your mind is too corrupted to ever understand anyway!

      1. flayman

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        Do fuck off.

      2. flayman

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        I feel the need to say more.

        You: The majority of killings in America are committed by repeat criminals using illegally obtained "handguns"!

        Yeah, that's a great claim for which you provide no statistical evidence but it's beside the point. I'll make a similar claim which I do not back up with evidence. Nearly all of the atrocities committed with guns in America are done with legally obtained weapons. You could argue that any murder is an atrocity, but of course there are degrees. And there is fear of random acts of violence resulting from, well, random acts of violence. Guy shoots up a school. Hell, kid shoots up a school. That's happened so many times. In every case I can think of, the weapons were legally obtained. Guy shoots into a music festival from a hotel room in Las Vegas for ten minutes before he did everyone a favour and gave himself one. Weapons legally obtained and converted to nearly fully automatic with a bump stock that was also legal. 60 people killed, 411 wounded, and a further 867 injured in the ensuing panic.

        Over the weekend in Britain there was a random act of violence with a shotgun by an incel freak who had an argument with his mother. 6 people were killed, including the shooter, his mother, and four strangers who were in the wrong place. That's the first time such a shooting has occurred in nearly a decade. He had a license, as it's permitted to own certain classes of firearms for hunting. We've had exactly one school shooting here back when Andy Murray was a kid. Gun ownership laws were swiftly changed thereafter and it actually worked. The reason is that career criminals don't tend to go around shooting up schools or strangers. They use guns for their criminal enterprises, and the guns they use are illegal. It probably goes without saying that if it's hard to get guns legally, it's harder for the average person to obtain them illegally. And it is the average loser down on his luck and feeling sorry for himself who commits gun atrocities before turning the gun on himself (I have no information about women going on shooting sprees).

        There is talk in Britain of tightening up licensing laws to require a basic fitness test. Hopefully that will happen. It's not really controversial, is it? It may be true, I honestly don't know, that the majority of gun murders in the US are with unlicensed weapons. The trouble is that there are just so damned many of these every single day. The ones that make it into the newspapers are not. By the way, I grew up in America and have lived in Britain for over 20 years. I've seen the difference. And the numbers are clear.

        1. Adelio Silver badge

          Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

          I have no problem in principle with some gun ownership. and in the UK that is heavily restricted and the rules for owning firearms mean that we do not normally get too many issues. (even one is bad)

          In America there appears (at least in some states) a free for all. People can get as many guns as they want and there are almost NO rules about the suitability of a person to own firearms.

          There is not even a federal list of firearms owners. Each state seems to have it own set of rules (or none at all) about gun registration, and it appears that there is NO appetite for a federal list of gun owners. Not sure why?

          The fact that there are so many legitimate firearm owners means that the availability of firearms to criminals is great.

          Why are you so fascinated by firearms? it is almost like a kid who likes fire and just wants to keep lighting them.

          Guns are dangerous, and that is in the hand of a professional, but in the hands of anyone else is just frightening. And the fact that so many people seem to think that owning more and more guns will make them safer is just palin stupid. Just have a look at the UK gun deaths compares to America. The difference is NOT small, but HUGE.... UK 60+ deaths a YEAR, USA over 38,000 deaths a year (2019).

      3. The Indomitable Gall

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        " The majority of killings in America are committed by repeat criminals using illegally obtained "handguns"! "

        My understanding is that the majority of these illegally-obtained handguns were legally sold into private ownership and were subsequently traded on illegally, often via gunshows where ownership registration can be legally ignored.

        Not only is the USA's legal gun trade the source of most illegal guns in the US, it's also the source of most illegal guns in Canada.

        So while your argument may be strictly correct, it doesn't prove what you want it to prove.

      4. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        "The majority of killings in America are"

        Some dickwad shot six people in Plymouth recently and we're all losing our shit over it, and somebody's head had better roll.

        Meanwhile, on your side of the ocean (from Wikipedia): As of July 31, 411 mass shootings fit the Mass Shooting Tracker project criterion, leaving 437 people dead and 1,688 injured, for a total of 2,125 total victims, some including the shooter(s).

        Whether it's the loony left or the (self-)righteous right, gun owners, or recidivist criminals doesn't really matter. There are too many guns around, making it far too easy for deranged people to get hold of them. I'll stop here as the numbers pretty much speak for themselves.

      5. Malcolm Weir

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        @Cliffwilliams44 is gibbering.

        The "Broken Windows" stuff in NYC was indeed coincident with a drop in crime, but since every other major city in the US _also_ saw a simultaneous drop in crime _without_ the racist "Broken Windows" policies that Cliffy loves, smart people would realize the lack of causality.

        Based on grown-up, big boy statistics, Cliffy's spew is demonstrably inaccurate.

        Cliffy.... correlation is not causation. Make a friend and have them explain that to you.

      6. Adelio Silver badge

        Re: Flattering, but still nonsensical

        You forgot the number of suicides committed with Guns, I presume almost all legal.

        America has a huge problem with firearms. Over 30,000 deaths a year, for a comparison the UK has about SIXTY, that right (60) gun deaths a year. The number of firearms in America is truly frightening, even the sanest person can turn and then BAM, more gun deaths. The fact that criminals are the source or a large number of gun deaths/crimes is NOT a reason to have almost ZERO gun controls. The NRA is a curse on America!.

        Assault rifles. I understand your point but any weapon that allows continuous firing can ONLY have single purpose (aside from in films) and that is to KILL people, lots of people quickly. It is not going to be much use when defending yourself as the potential collateral damage to "inocent's" is too large.

        So stop nit picking that these are NOT "true" Assault rifles".

        Fireams are dangerous, very dangerous and I doubt there are many Americans that can truly handle them well in "hostile" situations. After all how many people do police shoot accidentally every year? And they are supposed to have proper training.

        The main training with firearms should be to learn when NOT to fire.

        Man is a brutal creature and anyone that comes near you with a firearm is NOT to be trusted.

  34. Gazman

    Magna Carta is largely defunct

    In the UK, Magna Carta is subject to amendment and/or repeal by Acts of Parliament like any other law. As such, today, only four clauses remain in force: 1 (part of), 13, 39 and 40. The rest still looks very pretty on the parchment but has precisely zero legal effect.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Stay in school guys

    At least until you finish primary school.

  36. kirk_augustin@yahoo.com

    The article is incorrect. The Magna Charta is a principle that applies everywhere and at all times. Sure it was the Barons who forced it on the King, but the point is the Kings is not the ultimate source of authority. That same principle applies against the Barons as well. And whether or not article 61 gets repealed, the principle still exists as an abstract truth, which hopefully is then encompassed by additional articles and we do not just backslide.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Most specifically Magna Carta was a peace deal between a King and his barons, who he was unable to dominate militarily or politically - because he wasn't rich enough to outspend them on troops or able enough to divide them against each other.

      It was an expression of what was considered at the time "fair play" - but was not supposed to be a statement of universal human rights, a concept I doubt you'd have been able to explain to either King John or his barons given a year and an infinite amount of Power Point slides.

      What outraged them was the King fucking with their inheritances (and sometimes their daughters), so their sons could not take over their titles and lands without paying huge taxes that might break up the holdings. A certain amount of arbitrary taxation from a king was find, so long as they didn't take the piss. If you were competent, like say Henry VII - you could get away with fleecing most of your nobles most of the time - but John wasn't.

      However, the barons still had their own local courts. Dispensing "justice" upon their own people - and making damned sure that the King's justice didn't come anywhere near protecting them. In the charter it even specifies the independence of the church - who also had their own courts. Notorious for being completely unjust, when any outsider complained about some abuse of church privilege that fell under their jurisdiction.

      1. Sanguma

        .What outraged them was the King fucking with their inheritances (and sometimes their daughters)

        Kings is basterds!

    2. flayman

      Magna Carta is significant, but did not represent a serious curtailment of the Royal Prerogative.

      Following its swift annulment and through its subsequent reissues, it was mainly a symbolic tool for winning baronial support for unpopular policies. For example, Henry III reissued parts of it in 1225 in exchange for a grant of new taxes. This was the second time that particular monarch reissued the charter, which goes to show how easily its covenants were able to go unenforced.

      It is historically significant for the influence it had on Sir Edward Coke, who was Chief Justice and lead author of the legal opinion in the 1610 Case of Proclamations, which for the first time set limitations on the Royal Prerogative and established that only Parliament could alter the law of the land. The extent of the Royal Prerogative continued to be in dispute until the Glorious Revolution and the 1689 Bill of Rights resolved the matter once and for all. It was also influential to the drafters of the United States Constitution and has remained iconic as a symbol of liberty despite having been almost entirely repealed.

      But none of the above is of particular concern to angry morons who think they know a thing or two because they saw something on Facebook.

  37. Andy3

    Ferking idiot teens. Nothing new there.

  38. Skyeman

    Quality writing

    What stands out for me is the quality of journalism - head and shoulders above the mainstream press, who always have an angle (i.e. a "readership" to indulge). Journalists elsewhere should feel embarrassed that an IT industry title covers stories better than they do. If The Register covered general news, I would read it in favour of any other paper.

  39. Edwin

    Another comedy of errors taken down...

    't seems Janie's gone and removed the video. So much for my lunchtime entertainment...

  40. Aussie Doc Bronze badge
    Pint

    Optional sensible title here

    As an Aussie I have nothing of real value to contribute here except to say that the title "Procurator Fiscal" is fucking awesome.

    May the force be with you.

  41. Richard Cranium

    There's a broader problem relating to documents originating centuries or millennia ago.

    They were addressing a very different world. Population has increased tenfold since the US constitution, twenty-fold since Magna Carter, 50 fold since the New Testament. Most of the "authoritative" historic texts were written in different languages, addressed different life circumstances, have been subject to difficulties in translation. Few have been subject of revision and updates. They were, broadly speaking, attempts to improve the lot of the general populace in the context of the pertinent risk factors at that time. Literal interpretation a few hundred or thousand years later is as misguided as adhering to the UK laws of a couple of centuries ago.

    Take the London Hackney Carriage act of the 1800s with its requirement that London Cabs carry a bale of hay to feed the horses (that requirement was abolished in 1976). The act's regulations relating to not ripping-off passengers or driving while intoxicated are still broadly applicable although superseded by UK wide legislation which usefully includes piloting an aircraft and while impaired by a wider range of substances and conditions than alcohol way beyond the perception of legislators 2 centuries ago.

    That doesn't mean the older sources are irrelevant, most religions have a set of core guidelines comparable with the Judaeo-Christian Ten commandments or seven deadly sins. Even with those common short-lists, interpretation is where things go awry. Take the old testament "thou shalt not kill". Irrespective of religious or other context few would take exception to that "command" but we do interpret it. Most of us take it as only applicable to humans and regard killing in self-defence as a valid exception.

    The serious imbeciles can always find a questionable translation and out-of-context interpretation of some obscure clause in whichever historic document suits their purpose to give false "authority" to their deranged agenda.

  42. This post has been deleted by its author

  43. disgruntled yank Silver badge

    We the People

    The expression, "We the People" seems appropriate to the United States Constitution, framed as it was by a convention that could make a plausible case that it represented the people of the United States. But the "we"s in the Magna Carta all seem to be the "royal we".

  44. AnOwlCalledSage

    Practical Lawful (sic) Dissent

    Note: they aren't Sovereign citizens, they are the quaint British variant Freeman on the Land. Storming the castle was organised in the Practical Lawful Dissent Facebook group. Currently "led" by Jacquie "Phoenix" Robinson, a Canadian national, who appears to have overstayed her 6 month visitor visa.

    Most media haven't joined the dots, but they also tried to take over Chester Crown Court, but were told they couldn't take their sleeping bags and food in by court security, and left after the cleaners had finished.

    And what will be the fate of dear Janie after her failed putsch? It's not looking good. She's has been outed as a traitor by the Supreme Leader of Practical Lawful Dissent. (She is in the habit of deleting posts and removing the comments of non-believers, but luckily this one was saved for posterity):

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ⚠ WARNING

    Janie Ofthefamily Walsh is a Trator to Scotland ! And the Entire Commonwealth !

    She has violated her Oath of Article 61 !

    She has no Clue how to Hold a proper Court De Jure to seek Remedy for the People

    Only 1 person knew my location and Janie was desperate to find out where I was ! And She was Presuring that person for information even going so far as to tell them to ignore me and tell her anyway "F***what Jacquie says" was the exact quote

    She is Currently on a Man Hunt Searching for me to get a hold of David's Evidence the ONLY Thing that connects the dots to Hang the Criminals in Government !

    The ONLY reason she would have for starting a Man Hunt for me to get her hands on David's Evidence when she has no Clue how to Use it is BLATENTLY Obvious !

    The Regime wants it Gone and SHE is on the WRONG SIDE !

    William Wallace is rolling over in his grave

    She is A Traitor to Scotland ! A Traitor to Humanity and Traitor to her Own Son !

    Take Her Into Custody So She Can Stand Trial with the Rest of The Lucifarian Scum Trying to Enslave us All.

    Let me know once she has been taken into custody we have to get on with Redress and end this War !

    On a plus side this shows how close we are to the finish line so stay positive and don't worry I am safe and so is David's Evidence and that means your Children's Futures are Safe too

  45. The Indomitable Gall
    Joke

    Ah, but...

    " *As a Scot, the author sees it as his right to make fun of Scots. No genuine offence is intended, he knows how sensitive you can be. "

    Ah, but no true Scotsman... (you know the rest!)

  46. Kev99

    As a lineal descendant of Rchard deClare, 3rd Earl of Hertford, 6th Earl of Clare, of one of the sureties of the Magna Carta, I say this to those Scots and other gits.

    Yer bums oot the windae.

  47. nijam Silver badge

    > ... repeatedly spouted phrases like "we the people" and "sovereign" as though she didn't really know what any of it meant.

    It's really quite difficult to avoid uttering the phrase "Nicola Sturgeon".

  48. Ian Reissmann

    As Tony Hancock said "What about Magna Carta ? Did she die in vain ?"

  49. Sanguma
    Coat

    I am shocked!!!

    Shocked, I tell you, shocked to the bone!!!

    They neglected to quote Article 33:

    (33) All fish-weirs shall be removed from the Thames, the Medway, and throughout the whole of England, except on the sea coast.

    and Article 59:

    (50) We will remove completely from their offices the kinsmen of Gerard de Athée, and in future they shall hold no offices in England. The people in question are Engelard de Cigogné, Peter, Guy, and Andrew de Chanceaux, Guy de Cigogné, Geoffrey de Martigny and his brothers, Philip Marc and his brothers, with Geoffrey his nephew, and all their followers.

    Remove those, and their whole case falls apart! /rant

    Very, very, very stable geniuses, obviously.

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