“all lawfully owned firearms and shotguns in the UK are stored in hefty police-approved safes”
I think he means “should be”….
Criminals have hacked into a Gumtree-style website used for buying and selling firearms, making off with a 111,000-entry database containing partial information from a CRM product used by gun shops across the UK. The Guntrader breach earlier this week saw the theft of a SQL database powering both the Guntrader.uk buy-and-sell …
Generally the chap from the licensing is unarmed, and mostly visits periodically to see what sort of place you have as filtering out the incredibly stupid is apparently quite easy; they do things like stick up Nazi flags and have leaflets for "do you fancy joining $bannedgroup?" on their coffee table.
If he had a pair of officers turn up, chances are that his neighbours saw him cleaning his and called the police saying "my neighbour is walking around with a gun!" resulting in an armed response unit going to check on him.
And yes, most firearm holders have weapons either out in use, or in the cabinet. You do have a few people who use them and then leave them out of the cabinet to clean for prolonged periods, but these people are definitely in a minority because they are too stupid to own a firearm and tend to get eliminated from firearms ownership in one way or another.
I say "too stupid to own a firearm" because either you are using corrosive primers or propellents in your weapon, in which case you must clean the weapon *immediately* after using it if you don't want to lose measurable amounts of the metal in the barrel on each occasion, or your not using corrosive primers or propellents in which case it doesn't per se require cleaning. In both cases it can go straight back in the cabinet, as the license conditions of holding a weapon in the UK requires.
Some of a previous generation of NI lawyers had, in their younger days, seen active service in WWII, several of them in special forces. I was told of an RUC constable on protection duty for one of them who'd become a judge. The judge made clear that the officer's job, if he thought they were under attack at night, was to wake him up rather than responding himself. When he asked why the judge opened the door of the long case clock in the hall. There was a rifle inside.
Depends who you are as to how likely a surprise visit is, typically rich masonic grouse shoot owning mates of the chief inspector (& their gamekeeper staff with shocking gun security) magically have impeccable gun security on visit days in stark contrast to the rest of the time, almost as if they were tipped a wink.
AC as this was based on actual outcome someone making a whistle blower call to local police about gun storage security issues
Friend of mine with an SGC was a bit concerned by his local firearms officer visit. Said PC was a rather large gentleman, and my mate's gun cabinet was bolted to the chimney breast in the attic. PC barely fit through the loft hatch, and his Glock kept catching on the frame, and my mate was a little concerned there could be an accidental discharge.
gun safes are metal boxes attached to the framework of the building, nothing like a safe in which you would keep valuables.
All guns are stored separately from ammo in different part of the house. I. e. on break in you will lilely not be confronted by an armed gun owner.
A fair few guns are going to find there way into the hands of crims as a result of this.
Ammo is stored separately, but not in another part of the house. A lot of gun safes have secondary, lockable internal ammo compartments. Personally, mine's in my room. A lot of shooters I know have the same storage situation. You can't say that someone won't be confronted with an armed gun owner based on that flawed logic. If someone breaks in, their safety is not guaranteed.
Shotguns do not have to be stored in a Gun Cabinet. There is actually no centrally enforced means of gun storage, rather it is up to the local plod.
Firearms will almost certainly require a gun cabinet, but of the various places I have lived, shotguns are treated radically diffenetly, ranging from a cable through the trigger guard padlocked to an I-bolt through a roof beam in the loft, to a gun clamp with a cabinet only being required if you own more than one shotgun. As a reenactor, the 'shotgun' belonging to my Regiment is actually just kept in a locked storage container. The fact that the barrel from this 'shotgun' weighs around 100kg is a different matter. It's a replica 17th Century cannon.
One place I lived, the reaction to my muzzle loading black powder musket was 'Chuck it in the loft. You're hardly going to walk into a bank, fire a warning shot into the roof and shout "Everybody on the floor for 2 miutes while I reload"'
AC for obvious reasons.
I only own air guns, but all mine are secured in a locked metal office cabinet, in my home attic office, which has a firedoor with a steel reinforced combination lock, guarded by a PIR alarm. This far exceeds any UK legislation, and is for peace of mind when I'm away. I'd hate to get burgled, and what I'd hate even more is listing off what I own to the Police, knowing I'd armed some bad guys.
Ridiculous copyright and trademark laws means you will probably get a higher fine and jail time for using that name than you would be for selling stolen guns on there *
* For joke purposes, I don't think stolen items were sold on this gun site or Gum.....oh wait a minute, i'll get my hat
Just to clarify the "I don't think stolen items were sold on this gun site" issue, whilst obviously a lot of stolen property gets shifted on ebay, gumtree etc all firearms have serial numbers and these are recorded centrally.
It's therefore impossible to shift a stolen weapon in the UK to a legal owner; anybody putting it on their certificate would be providing the serial number to the Police and nobody would be advertising illegal weapons on a legal site; they'd get shopped pretty quickly.
Most traceable stolen property (up to and including cars and many antiques) goes to well known parts of eastern Europe in a shipping container for precisely this reason.
Joking aside, the animal rights activists are going to be jumping on this.
If I were a gun owner who partakes in a bit of the old hunting, I'd be concerned. In terms of threats to gun users, the activists are more of a threat than terrorists. That's not me saying it, that's the view of anti-terror officers.
Not being funny; but if you knew what the police response is to people breaking in to properties that are registered as holding firearms and explosives you'd look up the details specifically to avoid burgling them.
Suffice to say that the police take people attempting to obtain firearms or explosives (aka materials useful for terrorism) really, really seriously and it is one of the few things that will attract a large scale immediate response from the Police these days. Moreover, given it's a terrorism offence they get to hold people for 90 days without charge while their life is forensically dissected. Only an idiot would do it.
Alternatively, that's when the robbers turn up armed and mob-handed, knowing they'll have plenty of time to get away if the alarm's raised, and knowing they'll have time to locate and steal the farm's guns.
For example, https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/liverpool-gang-members-convicted-after-lancashire-farmer-is-shot-twice-in-armed-robbery-3187597
Oh I know! I had the full armed response unit outside the place I worked at because the alarm had been set - and I tripped it by accident.
What I mean though is that there will be people outside of those trying to obtain the firearms that will want their pound of flesh. The police response to that won't be nearly the same as those trying to steal a shotgun.
There was a letter in The Times ages ago recounting an event at a farm.*
The farmer had noticed two people at night trying to break into a shed and called the Police on 999. The response was that no-one was available. He called back a few minutes later and said "there's no hurry, I've shot them".
Less than ten minutes later a full Armed Response Team turned up, plus helicopter overhead with searchlight and arrested the two terrified, bemused, but otherwise unharmed would-be burglars.
The senior police officer angrily confronted the farmer: "I thought you said you'd shot them?"
The farmer replied: "I thought you said no one was available."
*I recall this being read out by Alan Coren on 'The News Quiz' ages ago, so it must be true.
Anti Terror officers have an axe to grind against lots of people.
FFS they would make the middle class climate protestors of ER a terror group if they had their way.
There's a lot more violent cops than violent animal rights activists.
.. I know plenty of wildlife monitors and hunt sabbers, they are all extremely NON violent (it's why I don't hunt sab, local sab group have policy of not retaliating to violence inflicted on them by the hunt / hunt followers - I'm too working class for that, if someone hits me, they get hit back
There's a lot more violent cops than violent animal rights activists.
Which is why the activists wear balaclavas to make it difficult to identify them, assault police ordering them to stop breaking the law, and tend to post seriously edited footage of what happened to build public support for their criminal activities.
This recently resulted in one of them getting jailed when they provided edited footage to the police in the hope of getting him jailed; which backfired when they were done for perverting the course of justice instead.
I thought a shotgun certificate only covered smaller bores - I recall 2 inches being a limit, but even that may only be for muzzle loaders.
Above that you probably need a proper firearms certificate; check with your local FEO prior to purchase, just to be sure.
For example, even if you're only firing blanks, anything above 1 inch requires a full firearms licence. I can't see them allowing a non-deactivated 120mm breech loader on the streets on a shotgun licence.
This'll help someone get their rocks off:
The interior is in overall very good condition. The gunner's controls appear to be complete. A near full load of ammunition is loaded into the ammunition racks
Re: Actual actual reality: nobody cares about his secrets ..... https://xkcd.com/538/
Now that is one very safe and extremely secure space to be in, unhindered as it is by second and third party doubts and worries .... both as real and imagined phantom fears.
And a grand place to be for Further Future Planning ACTivity Secrets to be freely and clearly shared/constantly 0day presented, in order to reach the many and those who may matter and would express a particular interest in such matters, and certainly more than any identifiable as any peculiar Chosen Few Doing God's Work, .... with ambiguity in the task considered and rendered persona non grata and as a perverse friend in league with wannabe foe ..... Mortal Idiots on Stupid Missions .... Cracked Kamikaze Operations.
The kind of people wanting to steal guns aren't going to be too fussy about hurting someone in the process.
The kind of people wanting to steal "guns" don't want either a highly accurate metre plus long single shot rifle, or a double barrel shotgun which is pretty much all that's held by legal firearms owners.
The kind of people wanting "guns" want pistols or sub machine guns that can be concealed in a jacket or down their trousers; and as these are illegal for the last 20+ years they aren't going to get them from legal shooters are they?
The best form of combat usable weapon that your going to find legally in the UK is the .303 Lee Enfield of WW2 vintage; but while that's a perfectly acceptable weapon it's useless to criminals as it's too visible and impossible to hide; if wandering around with a long weapon in the streets your going to get shopped pretty quickly by the public and the police are going to stick a helicopter on top so they don't lose them, while surrounding them with armed response squads. Even in a vehicle there are very limited numbers of places that a meter and a quarter of rifle will go. Many to most car boots won't comfortably hold a rifle and require them to poke through a ski hatch or similar, or lay across the back seats; not exactly useful if your up to something nefarious and want it to be hidden!
Rifles also require a certain level of training to be fired with any accuracy at distance while standing if you have more than an aspiration to hit something, hence the preference for short weapons that facilitate being pulled from a jacket and let shots be liberally sprayed from such a short range that it's impossible to miss by modern gangsters.
The kind of people wanting to steal "guns" don't want either a highly accurate metre plus long single shot rifle, or a double barrel shotgun
Apart from the fact that not everyone looking for an illegal weapon is a regular criminal, they might also steal an angle grinder to go with the shotgun.
"if wandering around with a long weapon in the streets your going to get shopped pretty quickly by the public"
Sometimes, just carrying a table leg at night is enough for a response! Especially if your a Scot in London easily mistaken for being Irish, ie speak English with a funny accent.
>>>Handguns have been banned in the UK for many years. The only people who have them are already criminals.
Careful. You'll have the pistol fetishists up in arms over that comment. (Those Brits who are jealous about Americans' 2nd Amendment rights are easily triggered.)
I thought there was an exemption for 'historical weapons'? Also it is the length of the weapon that matters. I knew someone who legally had a handgun, which had an arm brace fitted so that was over a specific minimum length, and therefore legal. I suspect that it could easily be modified to fit in a large-ish pocket in a jacket.
"If you are law abiding then you won't have that many problems obtaining a firearm for a lawful purpose."
Not many problems being relative in a slow process (according to the guys I used to shoot with anyway) which requires approval from a force not really happy with issuing licenses so will look for any minor problem to delay or reject an application. Assuming things are still as bad as a few years ago. That being for target shooting not shotguns however (which I believe to be a little easier).
The amusing/irritating problem in the UK is the ban on hand guns which makes an olympic sport illegal.
"I have never understood this kneejerk fear and hatred of firearms."
After the Dunblane massacre of schoolchildren*, and other fatal shootings in the UK, people wondered what need there was for handguns in this country, and they were in general banned.
It is a very different culture and environment in the UK compare to the USA. We don't have many dangerous wild animals where a gun would be necessary for self-defence, and hunting is confined to relatively small areas of privately owned land for grouse shooting and deer stalking. Farmers may shoot 'vermin' on their land, or domestic dogs or wild animals that are harassing their sheep or livestock, but generally people in the UK do not need guns for self-defence purposes.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre the tennis player Andy Murray was a pupil there at the time of the shooting.
What annoyed many of us at the time was the kneejerk reactionary banning of handguns that inhibits many people in this country from enjoying a fun hobby (along with the additional complications for other hobbies) when Hamilton shouldn't have been allowed guns under the previous legislation anyway.
I like guns. I grew up in military environments, I know how to handle them, I enjoy shooting them, they offer tremendous tactile feedback and shooting is one of the few sports I'm any good at.
But no, nanny state fears its citizens.
>>I grew up in military environments~
What does that actually mean? You lived on Salisbury Plain?
>>I enjoy shooting them, they offer tremendous tactile feedback~
>>>and shooting is one of the few sports I'm any good at.
Sport without the need for physical fitness. Like bowling? Maybe that's why handguns are do popular in the US!
Why wouldn't you fear your citizens? I've met a few; most are fine but there are enough that aren't to cause a problem. Forcing you to switch to a .177 air pistol for your target shooting - still entirely legal in the UK - to try and save even a few lives from idiots with guns seems a good trade to me.
"Forcing you to switch to a .177 air pistol for your target shooting - still entirely legal in the UK - to try and save even a few lives from idiots with guns seems a good trade to me."
An air pistol .177 or .22 is not the same as firing a live ammunition gun. I have fired a black powder pistol and its still not the same. Why dont we force everyone to drive electric peddle bikes to save a few lives? Seems a stupid trade to me.
>>Why dont we force everyone to drive electric peddle bikes to save a few lives? Seems a stupid trade to me.
Scissors. Peddle(sic) bikes. If you can't understand these are false equivalences then you shouldn't be allowed ANYWHERE near firearms. Perhaps go play soldiers with some airsoft toys to legally quench your desires. Or head over to the US where you can sate your firearms needs very easily without breaking or moaning about our English rules/laws.
"If you can't understand these are false equivalences then you shouldn't be allowed ANYWHERE near firearms"
And isnt this the problem. People making false equivalences such as the comparison of guns to air guns. Yet such false equivalences are accepted while comparing to anything else causes cries from those who dont know the difference, and even worse dont like things compared to what they have in every day life.
"Perhaps go play soldiers with some airsoft toys to legally quench your desires."
Again this is another false equivalence and I can only assume you havnt fired any form of gun toy or otherwise. Yet somehow its ok to compare shooting with 'playing soldiers' and 'air soft'. Entirely different things that you dont seem able to tell the difference. Airsoft is great fun, as is paintball, but only a child thinks its the same as shooting.
"Or head over to the US where you can sate your firearms needs very easily without breaking or moaning about our English rules/laws."
If thats your opinion of debate in the country then maybe you should move to N.Korea where you dont discuss the percieved rights and wrongs of a countries laws.
>>where you dont discuss the percieved rights and wrongs of a countries laws.
Definitely get yourself over to the US. You'd love it. All your firearms fantasies available 24/7. And it's cheap too. (Well the .40 rounds for a Glock 22 are pricey. But hey, it's all about the thrill. Am I right?!)
"Definitely get yourself over to the US. You'd love it."
It is a nice country to visit. I like the UK though so will stay thanks.
"But hey, it's all about the thrill. Am I right?!"
No. Completely wrong. But then you dont seem to know what you are talking about so far so I guess you should call it quits while your behind (not that I expect you will, you seem to think you know something for some reason).
But a gun is designed to kill. That's all it's for, and it's all it does. So in that sense, a gun - or for that matter a tank, or a cluster bomb, or a landmine - is very different to scissors, isn't it? And of all of these machines for efficient killing, only the gun has been turned into an object of worship, so much so that people literally take them to church without even noticing the irony.
I realise it's not the whole country, and I've largely enjoyed my occasional visits. But with people loving their guns and hating tax-funded healthcare and COVID vaccines, there are times that parts of the good old US of A resemble a high-functioning death cult.
Your average gun fan is more about getting excited about having a Glock 22.*
Ooooh I'm gettin' a warm tingly feeling just sayin' the word...
*Other handguns to get off about are available.
I suspect the viewpoint of an "average fan" would be heavily biased towards the viewpoint from countries where gun ownership is widespread and value is predominantly focussed on 'combat' situations - so in that respect your comment might be right. In other places the craftsmanship of a gun and a different set of aesthetics may dominate - and would lead to different preferences.
Behaviours with respect to guns look to vary widely across nationalities. Some countries with widespread gun ownership maintain very low rates of gun violence - others have more of a problem.
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But are we agreed, the Glock and all other similar handguns are popular but were not created out of a need to be cool 'n' sexy, but from a need for "When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfcuker in the room." ? (Or, given the circumstances of the above article link, the violent perps making a murderous getaway.)
I would agree that cool 'n' sexy was probably not the reason for creating the Glock and similar handguns - though they do often incorporate styling that customers often appreciate. I would also agree to it being undesirable for guns to be regarded as a cool 'n' sexy accessory, whilst still acknowledging that styling can be appreciated.
I also find the US's preoccupation with firearms for self-defence bewildering and ultimately self-defeating; but IMO they have got themselves into an awkward spot and there are no easy solutions.
"I have never understood this kneejerk fear and hatred of firearms. You might just as well despise scissors."
Stupidest comment of the week. Go have a beer and think about what you typed. Sidearms are for killing people. No one has killed 16 school children in cold blood with scissors. You utter plonker.
Heck, I don't even have a license. I "just wanted a gun" so I went into the local sporting goods store and bought one. A shitty one. So shitty, I discovered the trigger hits the frame, so you can't actually shoot it without filing things. What do you expect for $110 brand new, though? Apparently Smith & Wesson are the Hewlett-Packard of the gun world. The ammo was so cheap, it was aluminiumium cases instead of brass.
 actually it's for if I ever for an instant suspect I have Alzheimer's or other form of old-age dementia. Terry Pratchett put a steady face up, but I'm not.
"actually it's for if I ever for an instant suspect I have Alzheimer's or other form of old-age dementia. Terry Pratchett put a steady face up, but I'm not."
Steady on, old chap. At least get a second opinion before doing anything irretrievable.
Sir Terry lasted quite a while with his, and still had lots of fun, and Michael J Fox isn't doing too badly with his early onset Parkinsons.
Here in UKia, people realise you're more likely to be targeted by criminals if they know you have a gun.
I'm not anti-gun BTW. I know farmers who have firearms. Our system where you can have a gun if a) you have a reasonable use for one and b) you're not a nutcase, well that seems fair.
Let's wait for a knee jerk reaction from the government.
I bet they'll start with something along the line that websites in the UK will not longer be able to store personal data on in-house databases and they'll have to use new government API that will authenticate and securely keep sensitive info.
This way it for sure will not be hacked and no donor company will make billions implementing that inevitable car crash.
..and Rightly Shared Freely with All
Let's wait for a knee jerk reaction from the government. .... elsergiovolador
Sounds like an excellent plan, elsergiovador, and seconded here.
A responsible government would engage and make contact with perceived drivers .... with Immaculate Source Providers ..... Mined Core Assets ....... akin to an Almighty Tool Kit for Heavenly Use and Hellish Abuse in Service and Surrender and Submission to Heavenly Perfection .......which is only one in a Vast See of Perfecting Drivers for Virtually Advanced IntelAIgent Operating Systems Sparking and Sporting Almighty Interested Attention.
:-) Would you deny that is Heavenly Property Granting GODlike Rights and Adorable Attractions to Beta Test Prime Primordial Primeval Force Responses .....for the Quantum Leap into Novel Greater Virtualised Games Fields Tuned to Perform to XSSXXXX Codes of Endeavour for Immaculate Reward.
I would *love* to see how an iframe running on someone else's site could lead to a database on my site getting leaked all over the net.
The likely explanation is a SQL injection on their own site, as someone viewing it in an iframe should not have any extra privileges on the guntrader's own site where the code runs.
I think an iframe can indeed be employed in certain scenarios to make use of the logged-in user's privileges without their knowledge. But unless that user is an admin, I also don't see how that could lead to the DB getting dumped, at least by itself. There is probably a lot more to this hack that we weren't told about.
There are plenty and sufficient laws for the regulation of gun ownership... but.
Anti gun lobby will rant about those that ignore/circumvent/aren't enforced
Gun owners will point out that they are required to jump through many many hoops to legally enjoy their pastime.
No-one will change their point of view.