back to article Apple delays recalling staff to offices until October as Delta variant romps across US

Apple has pushed back the reopening of its offices to October, allowing staff to work from home for an extra month as coronavirus cases increase across the US. Initially, CEO Tim Cook wanted his techies to return to their iCampuses for three days a week starting from September. However, infectious variants of the COVID-19 bio …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How to hold them

    Hold them too tight (for communications) and they could drop dead. So the best way to hold on to them (the employees)... is not to touch them, yet?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How to hold them

      Hold them too tight (for communications) and they could drop dead.

      I'm confused. Are you talking about hamsters or staff?

      :)

  2. EricB123

    Who Knew?

    "Googlers in California were given the choice to return to the office earlier this month, we're told. They have been advised to wear a mask at all times, regardless of whether they have been vaccinated or not."

    Wow, there is a shred of humanity in Goggle's management after all!

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: Who Knew?

      Not really as no formal scientific proof has ever been released proving that masks actually prevent anything.

      From, what I have see or read the majority of doctors believe that they serve no purpose, especially when you realise how they are used. Taking your masks on and off multiple times a day is an absolute no no. Using home made masks, a no no.

      And before any starts anti vaxxers theories I have both jabs and am happy to do so...

      1. DS999 Silver badge

        Re: Who Knew?

        From, what I have see or read the majority of doctors believe that they serve no purpose

        Maybe you need to quit consuming fake news.

        Because, you know, doctors have worn masks for a long time, so the idea that "a majority" believe they serve no purpose is patently ridiculous. You've been brainwashed by those with an agenda trying to undercut public health measures for their own nefarious reasons.

        1. David Lawton

          Re: Who Knew?

          The masks doctors wear and not the same as the piece of useless cloth people were forced to wear, of which a lot even have a label in saying this is not PPE. Doctors might likely be using N95 grade single use masks and if they touch them, its a bin job and get a fresh, they are completely different to what the public have been putting over their faces.

          When you wear a real mask, one that actually does something you wont smell a thing when wearing it, with what the public have been wearing I could fart the other side of the room and you would be getting a smell of it within seconds.

          1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

            Re: Who Knew?

            sort of, but the facts tell a different story. look at the deaths and cases by country worldwide and relate those numbers to how the different countries approached the use of masks. Russia and the USA are at the top and the UK not far behind. Countries where masks were used are way down the list.

            "When you wear a real mask, one that actually does something you wont smell a thing when wearing it," Bollocks.

            1. Shalghar

              Re: Who Knew?

              When you wear a mask that actually protects against biological agents, you will indeed smell no biological scents anymore. That at least is what i experienced in military service whenever putting on some REAL gas/aerosole protection. I have not seen anyone wearing military grade biochem protection nor civil biochem protective suits or masks anywhere, however.

              The bacteriological masks in the ICU are not to protect the medical staff but to prevent the multitude of aerosoles that human beings naturally exhale from entering wounds or other damaged parts of the body. Same for the mandatory masquerade that cannot "kill the virus" (as there are no active components like active coal or silver inside) but mitigate the spreading of the usual aerosoles - as long as the mask is halfway dry and not already saturated with moisture and anything cought from the air or the lungs and happily breeding in the warmed and moistured cloth.

              With the multitude of differences between countries, mask or not is not and has never been the sole factor of difference in numbers. Germanys RKI refuses to count according to WHO standard and ignores pretty much anything not fitting the lockdown fetish propaganda, too bad the RKI has a veterinary at its media outlet, sadly not a Vetinari or someone likewise competent.

              Sweden has been fakenewsed to be a big country with not so much population density, ignoring the fact that Solna, Malmö and Stockholm are at least as packed as Hamburg, Bremen and Berlin.

              I would suggest to analyse both polarized viewpoints as both sides propagate logical flaws, fakenews (like german portals crowning Lauterbach as full blown epidemiologist for his one semester in that field) or unproven assumptions. Take your pick of whats halfway realistic and please do the work of coming up with thoughts that have not been force fed and pre chewed by interested parties of any kind.

              If in doubt: technics, physics and other laws of nature rarely lie.

              1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

                Re: Who Knew?

                You were good until "Germanys RKI refuses to count according to WHO standard".

                "mask or not is not and has never been the sole factor of difference in numbers." but it is an imprtant one, one denied by idiots.

                UK. 7th for deaths, 4th for new cases. 20th deaths per mn

                Hong Kong 141st total deaths 142nd for new cases. 174th deaths per mn

                Main differences. HK is far, far more densely populated than the UK and has a higher %age of people moving in and out. People understand respiratory diseases and give them the respect they deserve. People wear masks without being forced to.

                Similarities. NHS and HA. Relu on international finance.

                One can carry out this exercise for all countries and the one fact that stands out is that countries where the wearing of masks is accepted as sensible tend to have the lowest numbers of cases and deaths.

                But of course that doesn't suit the agenda of Fox/Mail or similar. and therein lies the problem. The long present woke cancel culture of the religious right.

      2. ILikeDrinkingBeer

        Re: Who Knew?

        It turns out I know someone who produces health research reports for UK governmental use, and he said about the same thing.

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          I really would like some government somewhere to post an official notice on these things.

          I'm tired of hearing "he said" stuff thirdhand.

          1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

            You can skip the political influence, as the original research is out there, and easy to find. It all says the same thing - mask-wearing, and all the other social measures we have been living under for the past 18 months, do very little to control an airbourne respiratory virus.

            1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

              No. The exact opposite is the case. do Fox, the Mail, RT and the Kremlin pay well these days?

              1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                Ok then, find me one published and peer-reviewed paper that says such a thing.

                1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

                  "Ok then, find me one published and peer-reviewed paper that says such a thing." Why didn't/ don't you do that first. You made the claim.

                  Nah, don't bother, you won't, you'll run away, so here are the facts

                  https://pws.byu.edu/covid-19-and-masks

                  https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now/

                  https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-what-does-the-science-actually-say-about-face-masks-12349337

                  1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                    I don't bother, because I'm not the one making a positive statement. Otherwise, I could say something like "wearing a top hat protects others from Covid, and it's up to you to prove otherwise".

                    You're not very good at this, these are the basics for online Covid arguments, from early 2020.

                    None of what you linked are peer-reviewed, published papers, although they themselves reference a few.

                    From your first linked article: "Researchers from hospitals, universities, the private sector, and government agencies have concluded that masks could be one of the most powerful and cost-effective tools to stop COVID-19 and accelerate the economic recovery"

                    That is somewhat hyperbolic, and suggests that if we all wear masks, Covid will die out, and we won't need to bother with vaccines! Which is it? Masks are great, and we don't need vaccines, or vaccines are effective, and we don't need masks? Or neither are great??

                    That article also states "There is now convincing evidence from multiple controlled experiments5–7", while those papers linked are NOT controlled experiments, but literature reviews (which I find to be misleading). One of those papers, has the conclusion "The study suggests that community mask use by well people could be beneficial" (which is from this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/). That's barely a positive statement in support of mask-wearing.

                    I've read all this stuff, buddy. There's a scientific-looking article making all sorts of bold claims (which is what all three of your links are), which is not supported by the research papers that are referenced.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Well, @ILikeDtinkingBeerAndPossiblyALotOfKoolAidToo and friends, this one's for you. Enjoy.

              1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                You missed the point, AC. It's not because I think I'm "individual" or "free". It's because my reading of the available research has told me that most of what we are told to do to protect ourselves and others from Covid is ineffectual, and more of a Covid pantomime. But that should be fairly obvious, as we are talking about a novel respiratory virus, which cannot be seen except with an electron microscope, and is certainly not fooled by some half-hearted plexiglass or strips of cotton.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  No, I didn't.

                  I just happen to have a fairly direct line to research on this topic by people who work in healthcare and research, with extra data coming in from my own kids who happen to be studying molecular biochemistry at the moment. In addition, my own training is in engineering, so I think I am in a position to make a well qualified judgement based on actual facts - and that judgment says you are spreading misinformation.

                  Whether that is wilfully or through ignorance I have no way to asses, but I can tell you that you're 100% wrong.

                  1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                    Well, if you didn't miss my point, don't link to dumb viral videos from the internet that make it look like you did.

                    Ask your molecular biochemistry-studying kids how a piece of cotton stops a viral particle approx. 100nm across, especially when every mask I've ever seen in public is not actually fitted to the face.

                    If you're going to tell me that it doesn't stop viruses, it stops aerosols - cast your mind back to the cold mornings of last winter, and think about just how much vapour was clearly visble exiting everyone's masks.

                    The only thing that stops aerosols and viruses, is a product rated to do so (that is, a fitted respirator). Anything else is just a crutch, or maybe Covid theatre.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      You seem to be confusing what masks do with how some idiots fit them - there is a difference.

                      Also, you really seem to be brutally ignorant as to the nature or the Corona virus we're addressing here. it's carried in colloidal form, which is what a proper mask does filter. Also, KN95/FFP2 masks are not "simple pieces of cotton" which suggests you're not as well informed as you pretend to be. There's a reason these have a CE rating - they're quite involved pieces of PPE that have multiple layers of different materials for a reason.

                      That you can see vapour has zero to do with the efficacy of the mask, or do you think the fact that it allows oxygen to pass too is a sign it isn't working either?

                      Now, if you're willing to go full hazmat to protect yourself I would be in absolute agreement that that would be better (overkill, but it'll work), but using your (incorrect) arguments to simply forego a simple but (proven) effective measure to protect yourself and others is lunacy of the highest order.

                      1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                        I'm well aware of KN95 - rated masks, but that's not the subject under discussion. We are talking about the idea that the general public, putting whatever mask-shaped piece of cloth they can find over their faces, is doing much benefit in stopping transmission.

                        Covid is apparently transmitted as a colloid or suspension in the liquid content of our breath - the vapour seen on a cold day is that very liquid content, so I would indeed expect to see a significant reduction in that. Obviously, if general masks were actaully preventing the emission of droplets and aerosols, all masks would quickly become very wet on the inside, which is also not happening. Oxygen does not carry virus particles, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

          2. gandalfcn Bronze badge

            But would you trust BoJo? Or Trump when he was in? I have never trusted either of them.

        2. gandalfcn Bronze badge

          Re: Who Knew?

          You mean Dave down the pub?

      3. John Sturdy
        Boffin

        Re: Who Knew?

        Well, these doctors seem confident that the right masks do make a significant difference: https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/upgrading-ppe-for-staff-working-on-covid-19-wards-cut-hospital-acquired-infections-dramatically

        1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

          Re: Who Knew?

          That's not surprising. Wearing a mask rated for the job, will indeed protect the wearer. However - the idea under discussion is that wearing any old bit of cloth over your face will protect someone else.

          1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

            Re: Who Knew?

            No it isn't, so stop lying, but then people like you are inveterate liars "Not really as no formal scientific proof has ever been released proving that masks actually prevent anything."

            1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

              Re: Who Knew?

              "Stop lying!!!"

              You realise where in history people who compulsively said such things, usually end up, right?

              It's also not clear which part of my comment you are addressing - am I lying when I say that "the topic under discussion is that wearing any old bit of cloth over your face will protect others?" Because that is the topic under discussion.

              1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

                Re: Who Knew?

                Why are you lying?

                1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                  Re: Who Knew?

                  You would make a good interrogator, sadly you missed the Spanish Inqusition by a few centuries.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Who Knew?

            the idea under discussion is that wearing any old bit of cloth over your face will protect someone else.

            No it isn't. You seem to be the only one changing the argument into "any old bit of cloth" to keep spouting your nonsense.

            1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

              Re: Who Knew?

              Here's a quote from the top level comment, that we are all apparently talking about

              "Googlers in California were given the choice to return to the office earlier this month, we're told. They have been advised to wear a mask at all times, regardless of whether they have been vaccinated or not."

              If we're not talking about the general public wearing masks, then what do you think we are talking about?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Who Knew?

                "masks" has not been equivalent to "any bit of cloth" for a long time, even the dumb ones got that.

                Apparently, with one exception.

                1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

                  Re: Who Knew?

                  What are the masks that we all walk around in, made of? As far as I can tell, they are made of some mystery cloth, manufactured very cheaply in China, and generally in a packet that says "this mask does not provide protection against biological agents". You can even buy masks labelled "fashion masks". How many people are using those?

                  Some people have made their own masks, generally out of some bit of random cloth. Our friends kindly made us a few of those.

                  Apparently, huge numbers of the general public now believe that such things are an effective barrier against viruses.

      4. gandalfcn Bronze badge

        Re: Who Knew?

        You may not be an anti-vaxxer but you aren't too bright.

        Scientific proof? There was one attempt in Denmark but it was a load of bollocks.

        USA. 1st for deaths, rejected masks.

        UK. 7st for deaths, rejected masks.

        HK. 145th or something. Accepted masks, as did Taiwan, Japan etc.

        Presumably the doctors you cite never, ever wear masks. Of course not. most of the studies people cite are taken out of context or wilfully misinterpreted. Do you know the difference between prevent and mitigate or minimise etc?

        1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

          Re: Who Knew?

          Spain had a mask mandate from late May 2020 - they are at 25th in the world for Covid death rate (they also forced everyone to literally stay in their houses for 8 weeks).

          Germany had a mask mandate from April 2020 - their death rate is only 2/3rds of ours

          Chile had a mask mandate from April 2020, and they are 23rd in the world for Covid death rate.

          Cherry-picking countries does not support your hypothesis.

          1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

            Re: Who Knew?

            Cherry-picking countries does not support your hypothesis.

            1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

              Re: Who Knew?

              I have not provided a hypothesis, I am providing counter-examples to *yours*. You really aren't very good at this at all.

              On the topic - yes, you are correct - we cannot support any hypothesis by picking out the various Covid mandates of various contries and attempting to use that as evidence. However, this is bad news for you, not me.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Who Knew?

        Not really as no formal scientific proof has ever been released proving that masks actually prevent anything.

        GIFY* - you're evidently too lazy to spend a few msec searching for it, instead spouting raw bollocks.

        https://evidencebasedliving.human.cornell.edu/2021/01/25/new-evidence-on-face-masks-to-prevent-the-spread-of-covid-19/

        https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/downloads/science-of-masking-full.pdf

        https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

        * It's more DIFY as I prefer DuckDuckGo, but DDGIFY is IMHO too much of a mouthful :)

        1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

          Re: Who Knew?

          None of your links are peer-reviewed papers (one appears to be a powerpoint presentation), so we can already say that you have not refuted the statement "no formal scientific proof has ever been released proving that masks actually prevent anything" (by "anything", I'm assuming the idea here is that wearing any old mask will stop some other person getting ill).

          The first talks about protecting the *wearer*. That's great - if you are worried about viruses and/or Covid, go and wear a mask (ideally, wear one rated for the job in hand). It says nothing about the idea that wearing a bit of cloth over your face will protect others.

          The second has some very circumstantial evidence, including the usual suspects of "measured droplets" (which does not at all measure viral load, or the corresponding change in health outcomes for others), and picking a few jurisdictions that introduced a mask mandate and overlaying a case count (correlation does not prove causation, as I hope you know well). It's also a powerpoint presentation. The key paper that it references, where an actual experiment was set up and measurements taken, in fact confirms that masks don't do very much.

          That paper is here: https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20 Fig. 2 is the most interesting part.

          The third includes the statement "Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive.", and then goes on with a lit review to try and pull something together.

          Maybe you should spend more than a few msec googling things, and take some time to read them.

          1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

            Re: Who Knew?

            https://pws.byu.edu/covid-19-and-masks

            https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now/

            https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-what-does-the-science-actually-say-about-face-masks-12349337

            Maybe you should spend more than a few msec googling things, and take some time to read them. Hypocrisy rules!

            Also try ecosia , it doesn't criminally rip you off.

            1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

              Re: Who Knew?

              I have commented on the articles you linked, on another of your copy-paste replies.

              TL;DR - scientific-looking articles promise evidence of enormous benefits of mask-wearing, but the actual research papers linked within do not actually support that.

      6. gandalfcn Bronze badge

        Re: Who Knew?

        "From, what I have see or read " You do know Fox, the Mail et al are not exactly reliable sources donl't you.

    2. Shalghar

      Re: Who Knew?

      "Wow, there is a shred of humanity in Goggle's management after all!"

      Call me a cynic (i am) but i believe the fear of lawsuits and bad press is the relevant factor for this "beneficial attitude".

      Either way, apart from control fetishes and issues, i really wonder why homeoffice was not already spreading like a wildfire in pre panicdemic times. No more costly rooms and toilets to procure or rent, vastly reduced electricity bills, the workers providing their own workplace and paying all the costs for it....

      With all those "productivity scanners" built into Office (365-downtimedays) and other software basically doing the surveillance creep from other vendors, making sure the workers actually dont nap on the couch the whole day should not be an issue.

      So what apart from "i got the biggest (building?) !!!" could be the issue here ?

      I´ll grab my coat and take a walk down by the watergate.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    On-site work will set the Virus free *

    * no special exemption for the UK, please note Boris Johnson.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    On the topic of mask wearing

    Provided the mask is of KN95/FFP2 grade or better, wearing a well fitted mask does help - it catches outgoing particles as well as incoming (that's why these masks have multiple layers).

    Now, if you're convinced yourself that it's all BS for whatever reasons and not wear one, I have two answers for you:

    1 - do not come near me;

    2 - selfish, ignorant git.

    I like to keep things simple for the people who would never notice brain fog because it's their natural state of mind.

    1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

      Re: On the topic of mask wearing

      Yes, but that's self-evident. A mask rated for the job, will perform the job, and in this case, the job is filtering out virus-sized particles. If you're concerned about Covid, wear a mask rated for the job, and then you don't have to worry!

      1. gandalfcn Bronze badge

        Re: On the topic of mask wearing

        So you agree masks work. OK So all your others comments were lies and bs. Thanks.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: On the topic of mask wearing

          That tends to be the problem with BS, as it's not based on simple, established facts you have to make up something new when challenged, and it is inevitable that you eventually end up contradicting yourself.

          That doesn't happen if you stay with the facts in the first place.

        2. ILikeDrinkingBeer

          Re: On the topic of mask wearing

          Masks rated for the job will protect the person wearing them, yes. That's pretty dang obvious, and if you're worried about Covid or any other virus, that's what I suggest you do.

          A mask-shaped bit of cloth over your face - well, now that's a whole different discussion.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: On the topic of mask wearing

            A mask-shaped bit of cloth over your face - well, now that's a whole different discussion.

            .. which is a topic that only you introduced ..

            Look, I don't care that you apparently don't think masks help, just stop with the BS trying to convince others because you are actively creating a health risk. Feel free to try and walk around without, but kindly do that well away from sane people who do pay attention to medical advice.

            1. ILikeDrinkingBeer

              Re: On the topic of mask wearing

              If you go and look at the top-level comment, you'll see that we are talking about the idea of the general population (in this case, people that work at Google) wearing mask-shaped bits of cloth over their faces. I call them "mask-shaped", because that is exactly what they are. Generally cheap, unbranded, unmarked, and untested bits of mask-shaped cloth bought from China.

              How will we ever go back to normal life, if people like you are convinced that these things are the only thing stopping mass death and destruction from happening, and despite most people being double-vaccinated?

              If you're so worried about what's on other people's breath, go and buy yourself a mask that does work (ie, one that is rated for the job), and then you won't have to go around telling everyone else what to do.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: On the topic of mask wearing

                I get to visit unhealthy places, so I have a large stock of KN95/FFP2 rated masks with proper CE marking and enough Sterilium and even surgical gloves to keep two field surgery posts going for a week.

                I'm only worried about people like you telling others that it's not worth the effort protecting themselves based on pseudo science. That's irresponsible and wrong.

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