back to article Windows 11 still doesn't understand our complex lives – and it hurts

I have been a Linux user for decades. Last week, I bought a Windows computer. It's not that I haven't used Windows – I do, as little as possible, in a VM – but recent problems with Teams persuaded me that repotting it in its own native soil would reduce the pain. And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance. Ho, as …

  1. Elledan

    A prayer for those forced to use Teams

    I do not use Teams, and by the gods I pray that I never have to. I have used Slack on occasion, and it has given me a glimpse into the madness that lies that way.

    Having Teams or Slack or other such tools which essentially just gets forced on you by your employer because of... reasons that may involve kickbacks or glorious ignorance is bad enough. Having every single system out there come with what is a work tool preinstalled and prominently put in a location where you are unlikely to miss it is borderline dystopian.

    Heck, even back when MSN wasn't dead yet didn't MSFT dare to throw it into people's faces like that.

    What's an OS? A Operating System that is application neutral and just happy to accept new drivers and run applications because that makes you happy as the user? Or a cynical intrusion into your private life that requires you to log into the MSFT mainframe using your MSFT-provided ID before logging into your MSFT Teams account for the working day.

    Yes, I am one of those Windows 7 holdouts, why do you ask? :)

    1. spireite Silver badge

      Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

      Teams and Slack are as bad as each other....

      Teams is forced because w use Office 365, so it's part of the corporate sub.

      Slack is used by the devs.

      As I have a foot in both vamps, I have to use both.

      The biggest issue I have is that someimes, the apps startup and the content doesn't load... just a blank window. So I have to do a force refresh.

      The second biggest issue is the god-awful management of previous chats/discussions. It's hard work navigating through it in a bigger corp.

      1. AVee
        Joke

        Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

        A foot in both vamps?

        Well, to each it's own I guess...

        1. James O'Shea

          Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

          it ain't blood that Countess Tepes wants...

        2. jgarbo
          Thumb Up

          Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

          Two feet? Quite a length for one lad...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

      Slack was forced on us. Then it became clear to see all old chat history you needed to pay. They didn't want to pay for it. Eventually it was abandoned.

      Google Hang Outs was used and force on us. It was pointed out "You may want to put chat history on otherwise employees/managers could abuse staff over it with no record". No, was the answer to that. Some months later a request came in "Can you give us the Google chat history of these two employees" (they'd been having an affair, what the fuck that had to do with the company is anyone's guess. We gladly closed the ticket with "No, Google Chat History is off by default at upper management request".

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

      Anonymous for obvious reasons.

      I am seeing this. It's insidious, and flies in the face of what Microsoft say they are now. Partner Of The Year awards so C-suite are "incentivised" to use MS tech and spend lots of money on them. Breathlessly excited MS interviews asking "how MS helped you with your ML challenge".

      The truth is (other than Office365, which is pretty useful), Azure etc is the least exciting platform, and the best use of it is IAAS and a bit of PAAS, and use best of breed tools for everything else.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

        Partner Of The Year awards

        with a silent "toxic" preface

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams

      It also insists on starting whenever I log in to that account, even after I've done things that supposedly should have stopped it doing that. That alone would be enough to make me say "never choose this".

      Then it routinely fails to find my microphone, even when pavucontrol shows that it is working.

      Just rubbish.

  2. MacroRodent Silver badge

    web Teams works on Linux

    I have been the web interface of Teams on Linux all through the pandemic. Works (even camera). There is supposedly a Linux Teams version, which is essentially a web browser running a single app (an Electron monstrosity), and some of my colleagues who have tried seem to have trouble with authentication all the time with it, so I never bothered. Web Teams works for my needs.

    My spouse has tried to work with Teams on Windows, with scarcely less problems (and as the IT support of our house, these immediately are my problems, causing grey hair). Yes, it really has trouble comprehending a user may have to access Teams as a member of different organizations, or as a "consumer" Windows ID user. How can it be so hard?

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: web Teams works on Linux

      The web version (and Linux) is a CPU hog. I've never knew my laptop could spin its fans so loud - and try to talk to people when all they can hear are your laptop fans.

      Teams is not fit for purpose.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        It is the same as the Windows version, more-or-less. Neither is native, they are all Electron apps (macOS as well).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        My Haswell i7 laptop struggles to run Teams (Windows) - in a video call, it uses >50% CPU (just Teams), 1GB RAM, and the fan spins *loudly* ...

        1. Alpine_Hermit

          Re: web Teams works on Linux

          I now run Teams as an app on my iPhone or iPad, it's the simplest way for me, no resource problems...well at least I can't hear any cooler fans whirring away!

      3. Pirate Dave Silver badge
        Pirate

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        Memory hog, as well. I'm forced to use it for work, but usually keep it shut down, as after 4-5 days of it running, unused, in the background, it has somehow gobbled a Gig and a half of RAM. Not sure WHAT it's doing with that much memory, as it's mostly just keeping an icon in the systray, but it really likes it.

    2. bolac

      Re: web Teams works on Linux

      Teams for Windows is also Electron. Electron is owned by Microsoft since the Github takeover. New OneNote and VS Code are Electron, too. The new Outlook One will be electron-based as well.

      Teams on Windows is even worse. It is installed into the home folder. Even if you ask for global install, it will install one copy to Program Files and then one copy to each user's home folder. Including an auto updater which pulls binaries from the Internet and puts them in the home folder, where the versions are accumulating to gigabytes of old Chromium DLLs and what not.

      But the biggest joke is that Microsoft made a tutorial how to improve Teams performance by whitelisting your home folder in the antivirus. You could not make this up.

      https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/OfficeDocs-SkypeForBusiness/blob/9df8f4069848c52ae810719e4baf171014b01452/Teams/teams-files-folders-antivirus-perf.md

      1. romanempire
        Flame

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        <-------- This

        Its a joke to deploy, admin and manage in corp environment. What the hell were they thinking!!!

        Not even any GrpPol for it.

        P.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        There is an enterprise install for Teams which any enterprise should be using (clue may be in the name).

        1. bolac

          Re: web Teams works on Linux

          I was never talking about private PCs. Who even uses Windows on their private PC in 2021?

          In every corporation where I worked (I am consultant) and that had teams (many refuse), thre was a copy in my user folder.. Are you sure that the enterprise install does not do the same thing, copy it to user folder?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: web Teams works on Linux

            You need to install the machine wide msi with the /ALLUSER=1 switch (not ALLUSERS=1 this adds it to add/remove programs, but I use both).

            msiexec /i <path_to_msi> /l*v <install_logfile_name> ALLUSER=1 ALLUSERS=1

            You also have to persuade the machine that it is a VDI by creating this registry key first:

            HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Citrix\PortICA

            Once you do this, it will install once to Program Files and run from there instead of each users profile.

            Pros, save loads of disk space and stop stuff running from user profiles.

            Cons, you have to manually update it and it doesn't update. You have to remove the old one...

            MsiExec.exe /X {731F6BAA-A986-45A4-8936-7C3AAAAA760B} /qn

            ... and install the new version.

            After all this it will still cache an enormous amount of crap in the user profile that you will have to exclude in RDS/VDI environments.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        > But the biggest joke is that Microsoft made a tutorial how to improve Teams performance by whitelisting your home folder in the antivirus. You could not make this up.

        Sadly, Microsoft are far from the only big IT vendor suggesting these work arounds as has been recently seen from yet another big ransomware attack.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: web Teams works on Linux

      some of my colleagues who have tried seem to have trouble with authentication all the time with it

      I previously thought Citrix confrencing was bad...

      So I've got to use teams. I've got a linux desktop and the org I'm at has gsuite as well.

      EVERY day I've got to either clear login cookies (if I want to use the web instance) or delete the teams folder (for the electron app). Otherwise it just gets itself into a cannot login loop.

      As the account is on gsuite I have to type in my email address 3 times, once for teams to throw away and prompt again, a second time in teams for it to use and bounce me to gmail, then into gmail to really log in. Only once I've entered my credentials multiple times do I get to give up a CPU core and a sizable chunk of ram for the "joy" that is Teams.

      Some of my peers have to have the camera off to have teams in anything approaching an almost usable state.

      I swear in my next job interview when they ask "So do you have any questions for us?" I'll be asking if they use MS Teams.

      Anonymous because I don't want any hint of this getting back to the place that currently pays my wages.

      P.S. Can you share / present a window (like in any hangouts, zoom etc) or are you limited to presenting an entire screen ?

      1. Random Task

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        yes you can share individual windows

      2. Denarius Silver badge

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        Odd. Devuan runs M$Team adequately for me with only release version one before current being stuffed. Froze after loading. Rollback fixed that until revision came out. Not all capabilities like background change available that I can see but it has worked for the volunteer organisation I am in. Using old i7 laptop. However, for same regular meetings I am either participant or guest. How that works I dont know. Took a while to stop it autostarting also. The upgrades are big so I assume usual modern approach of avoiding common standard libraries and creating binary blobs is used.

    4. John Sager

      Re: web Teams works on Linux

      I use the Teams app on Linux for one reason only. When we were denied the pub last year one of our Friday night group set up Teams for a weekly online pub session. It's worked fine for me on my laptop though it did choose the onboard camera rather than the USB one last week. One of the group with Windows says Teams messes with his Outlook when both are running.

    5. Ian 55
      Linux

      Re: web Teams works on Linux

      It is great to know that I am not the only one who cannot get Teams to work on Linux properly - it simply will not open links to meetings here.

      I can, if forced, run it in a browser, but it's crap there.

      The Android version at least gets me into meetings, even if it doesn't work well for messages at the same time.

      1. smot

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        It works for me on Ubuntu 20.04, Dell xps13 with 2 extra monitors. Webcam (USB, not the buit-in nosecam) works well. Only problems are: Screen/window share doesn't work with Wayland - only X, and only 4 people on screen although many more people shown as simpl,e icons. No backgrounds.

      2. FatGerman

        Re: web Teams works on Linux

        I installed it on Kubuntu 20.04 via the rather handy apt repository Microsoft have made for it. It works flawlessly. I rather like it as a way of keeping in touch with colleagues while also being able to keep them at arm's length. We also use Zoom and I can't see the need for that when Teams does the same thing, but hey-ho.

  3. andy 103
    WTF?

    Browser sessions don't work as you've described

    "I know of no system that allows different simultaneous workspaces with their own IDs, nor browser that allows the same with tabs"

    How are you expecting that to work in a web browser? Each tab is using the same browser session - they don't have a "separate session per tab" feature, and that would be annoying as hell if they did. Imagine if you'd signed into Gmail and then had to login separately to Google Docs, Google Sheets etc... per tab.

    This is why if, for example, you wanted to login to 2 different Gmail accounts you'd have to do it in 2 separate browsers, or a separate Incognito mode browser window. You can't be logged in with 2 separate accounts under 1 session.

    I'm not sure what you're expecting here but this seems to be a lack of understanding of how sessions work.

    1. MiguelC Silver badge

      Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

      Firefox supports exactly that (allowing several separate workspaces, not forcing you to log in in each tab) through container tabs. Each container (with n open tabs in it) is a separate workspace and you can log into different Google accounts (or Microsoft or anything else) simultaneously

      1. timrichardson

        Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

        Yes, it is a killer feature.

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          Indeed, but somehow it is not improving Firefox market penetration.

          1. gv

            Note that Firefox is not a supported browser for Teams.

            1. Zygous

              Indeed :( Mozilla implemented WebRTC as specified by the W3C, whereas Chromium (and hence Edge) did not, and Teams was built to support the latter. Funnily enough MS doesn't seem to be in a hurry to resolve this.

            2. Denarius Silver badge

              it works though

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

        Exactly. I have mine set up for this very purpose - it lets me log into my employer's system with my employer-issued MS ID, even though I'm using my client-issued system with its client-issued MS ID.

        Now, if only I could convince Office to default to the correct MS ID by default, namely the client one. Always, always it starts up using the employer ID, even though it's on a client computer and I only use the employer ID in Office to check and send mail in Outlook (where the client ID is also used).

      3. NeilPost Silver badge

        Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

        Or even simpler… work stuff in Chrome, what limited personal stuff I do kept partitioned away in Firefox.

    2. sictransit

      Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

      Chrome will let you log in with different Google accounts simultaneously in different tabs.

      1. andy 103

        Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

        @sictransit what steps are you following to do that in Chrome?

        1. Kobus Botes

          Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

          @ady 103, @sictransit

          Firefox on Windows also allows one to log on to different Google accounts simultaneously (though my better half had to show me). Disclaimer: I did not try this in Edge (not my machine - I use linux), but Edge is hidden from sight by design.

          Steps: Open one account

          Click on the Google Account icon (top right corner)

          Click on Add another account (this was where I came short when I tried it before; to me Add another account means I want to create another Google account, but there you have it) and enter the other account's credentials.

          Job done.

    3. thondwe

      Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

      Err not sure it's that bad - Edge (Chromium) has profiles - so I can easily have a work one and a personal one and these operate in separate Windows. Chrome seems to have similar?

      My Windows is hooked up to both Work and Personal Accounts both with separate OneDrive Syncs - so that's workable. (Account - Add Workplace Account)

      Even Teams has me logged in and switchable between orgs (NOT in a nice way with Multiple Windows though - come one MS!!) and my personal account (that is a separate Window).

      I have Admin accounts (Azure etc) so they run in my Windows Sandbox or in private browser sessions...

      Generally I use the multiple virtual desktop feature to keep these worlds organised...

      So it is "doable" - this issue I have is that MS makes it hard to have a separate Admin account (e.g. in Azure) - which should associated with my normal account - so I can share a licence or it gets deleted when I leave and org or change roles...

      1. NetBlackOps

        Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

        Same here. I don't even think about it anymore. 45 years schiznophrenic.

    4. marcellothearcane
      Gimp

      Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described

      Private browsing window?

  4. TheProf
    Facepalm

    And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance.

    Should you then not wait for it to be officially released?

    1. NetBlackOps

      Re: And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance.

      Too late, already baked in. Your Windows 11 Home will demand a single Microsoft approved account. Pro still let's you to have a local account. I've rather liked it so far.

      1. WolfFan Silver badge

        Re: And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance.

        A _single_ account? You won’t be able to have multiple accounts on one machine? Bloody hell, that would be insanely stupid. Not even MS is that stupid… are they?

  5. Robert Grant Silver badge

    It would be easier, one suspects, for Google to implement multi-ID support in Chrome, instead of the global log-out/log-in switch it enforces. Easier, but still not easy.

    Google services already all let you change accounts, some of which you may already be logged in to. Gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

    1. Tomato42
      Mushroom

      linking different profiles is not a good idea; then if your YouTube account gets banned (because the "AI" glitched) you loose access to gmail

      1. snowpages

        Needs tightening??

        "lose" not "loose". That is all.

      2. NetBlackOps

        Stupid AI n8ked YouTube, gmail uneffected.Been supporting women's gymnastics and skating since the early 1960's. Now I do it via Instagram. I give more accurate scores than most judges according to the coaches.

      3. Robert Grant Silver badge

        Is that related to what I said? Are you saying that if my wife logs into my Chrome and her account is an option in the account switcher, that if my Google accounts gets banned for something then hers would be too?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Probably. My kid added his school Google account to my tablet, a few days later Google pops up notifications on my phone wanting to know my date of birth.

          Of course I entered 1/1/1970.

          Looking forward to when their fantastic AI realises that the two generic words found in the dictionary aren't my first name and last name and asks me for my passport.

      4. Gene Cash Silver badge

        > if your YouTube account gets banned (because the "AI" glitched) you lose access to gmail

        Or if Google decides your name is not actually your real name.

        I'm not sending Google my driver's license, birth certificate or any other such private information. Fuck them.

        1. YetAnotherLocksmith

          You might change your mind when you realise that it is just polite ransomware, and that you have no access to videos, bookmarks, music, work or even money unless you go as they demand. :-/

          I have three Google accounts due to weird YouTube vs Google vs company thing. It's a pain, but I rarely use any of them, at least I rarely use any of them *on purpose* - they are always there, watching...

  6. bolac

    Browser Profiles

    With Firefox, you can have multiple browser profiles. They have completely different browsing histories, cookie stores, password stores, proxy settings etc. For example, set up one for work and one for personal use.

    Go to the "about:profiles" page.

    Edit: You can run them at the same time in separate windows (not in tabs of one window though). I also like to put a theme on some so the window has a different color to avoid confusion.

    Also for my main private PC, I just added a completely separate Linux user for work stuff This way, everything contained in a separate home folder and can be easily removed from the private PC. I can use mail programs, contacts, calendars etc. without mixing up the two.

    1. Tomato42

      Re: Browser Profiles

      yeah, running an application (even a GUI one) as a separate user on Linux is relatively simple if you are at least a bit advanced: sudo will handle both

      1. TonyJ

        Re: Browser Profiles

        So will Windows. Runas/Run as different user.

        1. bolac

          Re: Browser Profiles

          Another Pro Tip: Right click an EXE while Shift key pressed.

      2. bolac

        Re: Browser Profiles

        You can also do two full graphical logins at the same time and switch with Alt+Ctrl+F1/F2/etc. Or you switch users using the GUI, but then you always have to unlock your screen.

        Typically tty1 is the login screen and the user screens start from tty2 (modern distros) or from tt7 (traditional distros, because 1-6 were reserved for text console).

    2. Billy Whiz

      Re: Browser Profiles

      With Firefox you don't even need to go to all that effort. Just use "Open In New Container Tab" and select one of the pre-configured ones, Personal;work;banking, etc., or configure your own if you wish. Each container is completely isolated and you can have as many IDs logged in concurrently as you want.

      Simples.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Browser Profiles

      As does Chrome and Edge.

      Really no excuse for an IT pro to not understand you need to set up a separate browser profile if you don't want cookies clobering one another.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Browser Profiles

        Bless you for believing a second Chrome or Edge profile actually means anything as far as privacy is concerned.

    4. Not previously required

      Re: Browser Profiles vs Containers

      I think you can only use one profile at a time, but Firefox has a new feature (via a plugin from Mozilla) called Containers. These are brilliant! Colour coded tabs so you can see which is which, with own cookie store, history etc. I can log into different MS email accounts at once. If you launch Teams from one of these it still gets a little confused sometimes, but luckily I mainly use Zoom.

      And yes, that's Teams in Firefox in Linux.

      The only thing I dislike about containers is that so far you can't associate a container with a url in the bookmark system. Containers can be set for urls, but with MS or gmail its often the same url for multiple accounts.

  7. elsergiovolador Silver badge

    IE6

    Teams is the IE6 of communication apps.

    The only reason I can think of why it is being installed everywhere, are kickbacks that likely managers are getting under the table. If your company gets "infected" by Teams, better look around if managers are talking about buying a new TV set or booking holidays, where you know they wouldn't be able to afford it from their salary.

    Users report tons of issues about this app but they won't even address it anymore, just say "we need to learn to live with the shortcomings of Teams" - as if it was the virus...

    Companies that employ IT crowd that use Linux must often run a secondary communication system, because Teams client on Linux is an abomination.

    1. bolac

      Re: IE6

      That is not surprising since Outlook is the IE6 of Mail User Agents and Excel is the IE6 of spreadsheet applications, it even fails at basic math.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: IE6

      At least it has tabs! Although of course the content reloads each time you switch away and back, so they're useless.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: IE6

      I assume the only reason you said Teams is the IE6 of communication software is you haven't used Lotus Notes before.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: IE6

        I figured Notes would be the Mosaic of communications software...

    4. katrinab Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: IE6

      They use Teams because it comes as part of their Office 356 subscription, and therefore they don't need to pay extra for it.

  8. TonyJ

    I find Teams to be quite clunky and very lacking in the intuitive-use stakes - and the ever changing of bits (moving around parts of the UI for no apparent reason) drive me up the wall.

    MS realised, many years, ago that letting people connect Outlook to multiple organisations (i.e. email addresses) was a good thing. I can see no realistic reason to not allow the same feature within Teams and then to have say different coloured windows to show the differences in accounts.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > I can see no realistic reason to not allow the same feature within Teams

      Quite probably for the same problem Microsoft have long had (it's a little better these days actually but far from perfect) - that they employ lots of smart people straight from collage. People who have been taught cr*p on university courses by people who seem to lack any real-world experience and so end up "reinventing" things that were done better and smarter years ago but ditched because of "innovation".

      Actually, having a proper unified comms tool IS a good innovation. But not much use if the vendor can't make it performant and reliable.

      The basics should indeed have been part of the requirements from the outset instead of seemingly inventing the whole bundle on the fly.

      Rather like Outlook, I find Teams the best of the integrated comms clients by a long way despite its shortcomings. Sadly the bar is rather low. The same is true for Outlook. I keep going back to it on desktop and mobile not because it is fundamentally "good" but because it simply isn't as bad as the competition at doing the complex communications I need it to.

  9. Martin-R

    Browser Profiles

    Chrome supports multiple profiles, they just open in new windows rather than different tabs. Works a treat for keeping all the different O365 accounts separate (and that increasingly includes for voluntary groups as well as work clients)

    The frustration with the Teams client for Windows however is quite justified... Outlook is sitting there quite happily supporting six different Office 365 accounts simultaneously, letting me receive emails from any of them and send with little more fuss than a dropdown to select the account. Teams on the other hand is struggling with my work account and one client 'guest' profile; to support any more requires major logging out and and in again. Ironically the best client I've found for Teams so far is on the iPad...

  10. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    In fairness, simultaneous use of multiple IDs is rarely handled well by modern UI'd desktops and remote services. All systems assume you have one ID, and if you have the temerity to want more, then you must log out and log back in again, an idea unchanged since mainframes stalked the earth.

    KDE has had a "Switch User" option on the Power/Session section of the menu for a long time. Opt for that and whatever's running stays running but you're presented with the login screen which you'd obviously need for the other ID* - there'd be something wrong if you could just waft over into a different ID without presenting any credentials. Log out of the other ID when you've finished and, again, you have to present credentials to get back to your original session but it's still there as you left it. I don't see anything wrong about having to provide ID & password, in fact I'd count it as a problem if you didn't.

    * This is assuming you're not just wanting a terminal session for the other user in which case you can just su.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge

      > KDE has had a "Switch User" option

      IIRC Windows has (had?) the same feature, at least WinXP and Win7 did (I never seriously used any newer Windows). Of course I wouldn't be surprised if they removed that feature since for being too power user friendly...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > Windows has (had?) the same feature

        It still does and it works just fine including with biometric and pin sign-ins. Though it does, of course, get confused if you want to use the same face image for two different accounts on the same device! :-)

    2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      I have no problem using multiple IDs simultaneously. That works just fine in ssh sessions.

  11. NetBlackOps
    Holmes

    Same shit, different millenium.

    I've living this forever, especially as a tester, developer, and consultant for pretty much everyone. Except Oracle. Some I just will not do.

    Seem to recall Trevor Pott complaint. Dabbsy, too.

  12. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Okay but have you seen all the new emojis they added? Or the GIF search? HAVE YOU SEEN THEM?!

    1. NetBlackOps
      Mushroom

      Thankfully only on the Discords I moderate. Otherwise, send me an email, I might get back to you.

      1. YetAnotherLocksmith

        We dropped using Teams and switched to Discord. Ironic since we are now all able to see what we type and send files, etc far better, so actually less discord!

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      I imagine nobody with accessibility problems has seen anything in Teams given the user interface is a fucking abomination.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Yes, but on the other hand it's so slow that you have plenty of time to consider your next move.

  13. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    A RAT not hiding out of sight and mind risks a'morphing into a fancy brick

    The simple abiding mistake made by most possibly nearly all who use a computer operating system is to assume and expect it is designed primarily to help you in your tasks and desires rather than deliver them, lock, stock and barrel, to the computer operating system.

    However, once you realise that, you are better able to groom the system to their liking of your upcoming fare/ware. All it takes are a few exceptional tweaks/critical leading driver changes.

    1. Tail Up

      Re: A RAT not hiding out of sight and mind risks a'morphing into a fancy brick

      >system:

      =tweak(@);

      &agent().

      #do-

      &if_ none=

      1 put_sprite AR GMT, 42000000;

      2 goto >

      #on_cycle(10)

      echo KICKSTARTER, NEED ASSISTANCE!!!11

      begin_proc, would you?

      >end tweak(@)

      /wait for incoming mail

      not connected with binary-hid os, but a great win-win doze

      london royal symphony musicians need for a starting advertising. lots of fun. as real as el reg's comments fcuk why so many anons here must be from MS? ;-)

      wholly a matter of culture. well, you know (-;

  14. Ozan

    Seperate IDs?

    It's hard to implement yes. But they won't. I think they will be more happy when we just use same account for everything you know easier tracking of our work and private life.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Seperate IDs?

      It's very possible, although I think the real explanation is much more simple and even more depressing: They don't care about user experience at all, so who cares what the lusers might want or need...

      For Microsoft, users are captive so you don't really need to seduce them anymore, they will keep paying for your ware no matter how crappy it becomes. Just go through the motions of releasing "new" "fresh" versions, while simplifying the underlying structure and removing complicated features to reduce cost. Still, throw them a small bone from time to time and everybody is happy.

      1. Ozan
        Unhappy

        Re: Seperate IDs?

        That sounds derpressingly true

  15. timrichardson

    Ha!

    I have a domain for my business, mostly linked to Google services. A client added my email address to a Teams project.

    And then ... bad things happened. I could not use this address myself when other clients wanted to invite me to taems. Attempts to set the password to take control of my own email address were pointless, because something at Microsoft at implicitly added my organisation (my domain) as a Teams organisation but it had no actual administrator. You can't reset passwords, only the admin can, but there was no way to become the administrator. The client removed my account from their Teams project, but it made no difference. Eventually, after a few weeks, a Microsoft tech called me and via a phone call, removed my organisation. It was incredible: I never registered my domain with Teams, it was somehow captured by the client innocently adding my email to a Teams project.

    However, being able to call support when I don't pay a cent to Microsoft was actually kind of impressive, but not enough to compensate for such a strange experience.

    The Linux Teams client is fine, and the browser client is acceptable. Electron supports native wayland now, so Teams will presumably get this over the next 12 months. Zoom still has the best Linux support.

    1. AaronCake

      Re: Ha!

      This exact thing happened to a client of mine! Somehow their domain became registered with Microsoft with an Office365 tenancy. It was a 2 week nightmare to fix it and Microsoft could not tell me how it happened. They kept forwarding me around support departments because "you don't have an Office365 subscription" and then "this is an Office365 support issue". I don't recall what the final solution was, but it happened after I told them "You have somehow hijacked my client's domain and claimed to host their services. This can't be legal, can it?"

  16. TeeCee Gold badge

    Surprise surprise.

    Idiot luser blames iffy software on OS.

    Windows has suffered from being slagged off because ${software_package} is a POS since forever. I'd have thought that a professional might have been able to spot the difference, but apparently not. Incidently, didn't notice you ranting about how shit your Linux is because Teams misbehaved there too...(!)

    This is like the key difference between Windows Mobile (the old CE based one) and Android. Google have managed to get the users to blame the supplier when the implementation on Phone X is a heap of shit. MS never managed that trick, so instability (always down to a shoddy third party RIL) was always blamed on the OS.

    Also, on the subject of why multi ID doesn't really exist, you forgot the main reason - Legal. ...I know of no system that allows different simultaneous workspaces with their own IDs.... That'll be because you know most users will log in with both their work and private credentials at the same time and be less than careful about what ends up where, which will land you, not them, in GDPR hot water.

    1. NetBlackOps

      Re: Surprise surprise.

      US Navy, 1979-1991, I had multiple identities according to classification then by project. I wore multiple hats all time, and changing over time. My final title was, amusingly, Special Projects. I was the one to keep track of them. Neverr seen a business get it right, even contracting with DoD.

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: Surprise surprise.

      I disagree.

      First of all, I doubt that the author of the article is an idiot.

      Second, I do believe that he advanced a lot of valid arguments.

      Teams is a nightmare for me and I only use it once a week. Microsoft is increasingly nightmarish and totally overstepping its bounds. Forcing me to log in with a corporate ID just to open Excel ? WTF ? Am I going to have to send a dick pic as well ?

      Thankfully, my Borkzilla ID issues are constrained to an environment where an actual admin is available to solve issues since it is all for customers and I work on their own hardware (sent to me via UPS or whatever else last year).

      I shudder to think of what I would have to go through if I had to deal with that shit on my personal hardware.

      Thank God for Firefox + NoScript + uBlock Unity.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Surprise surprise.

        > Forcing me to log in with a corporate ID just to open Excel

        Have you tried to use Google Sheets without a Google ID?

        What the hell did you expect? If you don't like it, use LibreOffice.

        1. Stoneshop Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: Surprise surprise.

          Have you tried to use Google Sheets without a Google ID?

          No, because I know I would need one. Which I don't have, and won't ever have.

          And LibreOffice does what I need it for.

        2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Surprise surprise.

          What the hell did you expect?

          Perhaps for Excel to work as it has for decades, as a local application where no corporate ID is required to use it?

  17. Andy E
    FAIL

    It really is that bad

    Teams is really just a GUI for SharePoint with some bells and whistles added. The development team appear to be using Agile as new features appear which aren't fully implemented and often don't quite work.

    The group video call is probably the best bit of Teams. Chats are OK but a nightmare if you want to delete something. The Files interface is poor and don't get me started on the appalling MS Office apps integration.

    I have two clients who set out to fully use it and had training days etc. In both organisations its now just used for meetings, chats and a file repository for shared documents. None of the other features get used.

    1. elsergiovolador Silver badge

      Re: It really is that bad

      The Files interface is poor

      Poor? It's a dumpster fire. As far as I remember of many things, the Teams do not strip EXIF metadata from pictures, so if someone shared a photo, you could easily see where they took it. Probably a feature so that your manager could see you are not working in London, but in fact somewhere in Portugal :-)

      1. ThatOne Silver badge

        Re: It really is that bad

        > you are not working in London, but in fact somewhere in Portugal

        If you cheat on your location and haven't disabled EXIF metadata it's your own fault...

        Seriously, I think not modifying the files in any way is The Right Thing to do. I don't want a transport program to make arbitrary changes on the content I ask it to transport. Not only it's not its place to do so, but it would be wrong more often than not.

        If I'm stupid enough to send self-incriminating material, it's not the transporter's place to prevent that.

      2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: It really is that bad

        Bring up Portugal photo on your screen

        Snipping tool

        Paste snipped capture into Teams sans EXIF

    2. Plest Silver badge

      Re: It really is that bad

      Bingo!

      Great for chats and sharing the odd throwaway doc to each other but don't go any deeper down the rabbit hole, just too much pain! Even MS people have slagged off Teams so called "Wiki" notes feature as being the worst collab software feature ever in any MS software.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It really is that bad

        Ah, that "WIKI" that isn't - by far the worst part of Teams, the team that threw that together should have been fired (and probably were since no further development seems to have happened).

      2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: It really is that bad

        "Great for chats?" Teams is hands-down the worst chat software I've ever used. It's abominably slow, often taking 5-10 seconds to catch up with typing or display the text-entry box after clicking "Reply" or "New Conversation". (And, yes, this is the Electron "native" client.) Scrolling is horribly laggy.

        No user option to make Enter behave normally and use Ctrl-Enter in the base editor view. No Markdown support, so if you want formatting you have to use the fancy editor view, and (like all Microsoft editors) that frequently gets confused and fucks up the formatting, particularly if you undo something or, god forbid, backspace into text that's formatted differently.

        Search functionality is abysmal.

        What's better? Oh, Skype was. Lync/SfB was. RocketChat. Any libpurple-based client I've ever seen. The VMS "phone" application. UNIX talk(1). Hell, write(1).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It really is that bad

      > None of the other features get used.

      Not going to disagree that it has some SERIOUS usability and performance issues.

      But really? With Teams, we managed to move over 10,000 people from office-based to home working in a couple of weeks with absolute minimal disruption. Now people have integrated phone, video, room-based VC, advanced call handling, chat, basic file management - all in a single client.

      Our users love it despite its weaknesses.

      1. The Rope

        Re: It really is that bad

        I can live with a lot of Teams lack of usability and odd design decisions. But using it as a company phone system without the ability to have a proper shared contact list is a nightmare.

      2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: It really is that bad

        "Love" might be a tad strong in this case.

        Having used Teams while WFH, I'd say, "accept" might be closer to the mark.

        My biggest complaint with Teams? There's no way to organise chats. And searching isn't much help. MS seems to have decided that using the participants' names is sufficient to ID a chat. No opportunity to tag them with subjects, and when the same participants reconvene for another chat on a different subject, it's appended to any prior chat among the same people. Also, no way to delete chats. So they hang around and clutter up your chat list.

  18. Alan Bourke

    Man confuses 'Teams' with 'Windows'

    film at 10

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Man confuses 'Teams' with 'Windows'

      Microsoft confuses Teams with Windows.

      FTFY.

  19. Swordfish1

    Microsoft can stick windows 11, regarding the TMP saga. Sorry MS - we have a home network of 3 computers, which cost an arm and a leg. Non have TPM, although, 2 could accommodate TPM chips if the correct ones can be found.

    Even if they can be found I'm not paying over £80 for a 20.1, and a 14.1 - no way, without any guarantee, that they'll work with the CPU, or secure boot configs.

    Yes I know you claim to support windows 10 to 2025, but for my wife and I Windows 10 is the end of the line, and we are not going to update our machines, because you assume everyone has a brand new TPM enabled machine.

    I'll just get rid of windows, on the to PC's, and use Linux and run Chrome on the laptop.

    Really taking the piss Microsoft, especially as we pay you a an annual subscription for Office 365, and OneDrive.

    Not a happy customer

    CS

    1. DJV Silver badge

      Fully agree...

      However, it seems that MS haven't baked the TPM/Secure Boot requirements too deeply into the mix and people are very quickly finding ways around them. This one is particularly interesting:

      https://www.xda-developers.com/install-windows-11-unsupported-pc/

      I used method 3 (creating a hybrid W10/W11 insider ISO - not too difficult if you follow the instructions - all it does is replace a single file) and now have W11 running on a 2009-vintage Compaq Presario (no TPM or Secure Boot whatsoever). When it first managed to boot up the Settings app front-end was the W10 version instead of the restyled W11 version but the update to the latest 22000.65 insider fixed that.

      Of course, there's absolutely no guarantee that these bodged versions will keep running but I believe there are FAR more resourceful people outside of MS than within it so I suspect this little cat and mouse game will continue indefinitely!

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Go email yourself

    > Hardware platforms are easy but you end up emailing stuff to yourself. A lot. In 2021. It's crazy.

    What's crazy is an IT professional in 2021 who hasn't researched file-synchronisation tools and discovered SyncThing

    1. karlkarl Silver badge

      Re: Go email yourself

      SyncThing. That's like a consumer version of scp right?

      The fact that Microsoft finally caught up and slapped an SSH server into Windows has been the only move since the 90's that has been an improvement.

      1. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Go email yourself

        More like rsync than scp, to be fair.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Go email yourself

        > The fact that Microsoft finally caught up and slapped an SSH server into Windows has been the only move since the 90's that has been an improvement.

        Don't forget them shoe-horning a fairly full version of Linux into the Windows OS - haha :-)

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    multiple browsers

    This may not work for everyone, but I now use separate browsers for separate IDs, and since you can open outlook and teams in browser windows this might actually work.

    I have edge and IE-whatever, chrome, firefox and Opera GX, I also have regular Opera but have not yet had to resort to that,

    Chrome is used if my wife quickly needs to do something on her online ID and wants to use my PC as it's already on.

    Opera for business / work and IE-whatever for those 2 websites that refuse to work under Opera

    Edge and firefox again for different IDs

    Add a smart proxy switcher to your browsers in case you need to bypass the firewall/work enforced proxy server.

  22. Timmy B

    Jump on the Windows 11 bandwagon...

    ..."Windows 11 still doesn't understand our complex lives"

    This article was about Teams - not Windows 11....

    1. theOtherJT

      Re: Jump on the Windows 11 bandwagon...

      Yeah, I'll be honest the title threw me here too.

      I was expecting the little teams anecdote to be an opener into "How do Microsoft keep dropping balls thrown by other members of their own organization?" (Because they do, all the time) but then the author just sort of wandered off and talked about how bad teams is at dealing with multiple user ID's in a single login session... and... yeah. I mean. It is bad at that, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Windows 11.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There's still hope for Microsoft...

    https://blog.jreypo.io/2021/07/09/a-look-into-cbl-mariner-microsoft-internal-linux-distribution/

    (Now if they would just put Windows as the VM running on Linux the way it should be)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's still hope for Microsoft...

      > Now if they would just put Windows as the VM running on Linux the way it should be

      Haha!! Yes, Linux as host, Windows as the GUI. I could get behind that! (Or probably better to take wind out of Apple's sails by using BSD as the host).

      Linux GUI's are a train-wreck built on an iceberg (could that be a thing?!) :-)

  24. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Coat

    There was no reason my local Windows, where I was running the Teams app under my personal ID, should know about it.

    I think Windows/Microsoft knows more about you than say your Mother knew how your bottom looked when she used to change your nappy

    I had a similar problem due to a company Microsoft id/authentication thinking that I still worked for a company I left months ago.

    1. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Clearly

      Microsoft only thinks it knows more than it actually does, as evidenced by it not knowing about your job change.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Clearly

        Sorry, but no. Microsoft knows where the OP works, it's the OP who's clearly wrong.

  25. This post has been deleted by its author

  26. Liassic

    Teams doesn't work in IE 11, Safari or Firefox

    It took me ages to realise that Teams web doesn't work in Internet Explorer 11, Safari, and Firefox.

    It's not supported in those browsers.

    Can you ever imagine a major IT company developing a core product that doesn't work in those browsers.

    I hate Teams with a passion. And I only have to use it for video calls.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Teams doesn't work in IE 11, Safari or Firefox

      Safari is annoying but why should it work on those other niche browsers? There's a perfectly decent Mac app so why not use that?

      1. WolfFan Silver badge

        Re: Teams doesn't work in IE 11, Safari or Firefox

        Firefox is a “niche browser”? Most intriguing.

  27. Gerlad Dreisewerd

    Get rid of the crapware

    I would be profoundly thankful if Microsoft gave up on uninstallable software like Microsoft Edge, Weather, X-Box support, etc. I don't mind the option but I heartily object to software baked into the OS and cannot be removed.

    1. David 132 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Get rid of the crapware

      Seconded, but pedantry compels me to point out that you probably meant to type “un-uninstallable”.

  28. martinusher Silver badge

    You've stumbled across the dark secret...

    The inconvenient truth is that a lot of applications development is concerned with stopping what should be a straightforward application from working unless the user has the correct credentials to ensure that said application is monetized appropriately. This alone accounts for why Linux programs appear to 'just work' while their Windows equivalents can be just a world of hurt.

    I understand people need to eat but this continual compromising of functionality to suit marketing imperatives (and its close cousin, "security") impacts productivity. Ultimately a program like Teams doesn't do anything that hasn't been done decades ago, its just now in a shiny Office wrapper with all the attendant issues of compatibility, maintainability and usability (and I'm not sure that constant distraction is the key to a productive workday either).

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: You've stumbled across the dark secret...

      Mordac, The Preventer of Information Services is real.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Am I the exception?

    OK, I admit that it is a bit of a hog and I'm not quite sure what is wrong with video, I have to turn it off if I want to do other things while in a Teams call.

    But otherwise, I love that there is a unified comms client that is actually unified across all comms (well not yet quite for email, I have my suspicions that MSFT are working on that).

    And I work with around 5 different logins - it's a bit of a pain to switch that is certainly true and you have to remember which you are logged into. But I use the web version in separate profiles for all but my main login and it all works well.

    From the support issues I've seen it is the users who get confused, not the system!

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Am I the exception?

      "well not yet quite for email, I have my suspicions that MSFT are working on that"

      Judging by the rest of the comments you've now got a lot of people worried.

      "From the support issues I've seen it is the users who get confused, not the system!"

      It may or may not be the users who are getting confused but if they are it appears to be the system that's confusing them. The role of system designers and developers is to produce systems that deliver the services that users need in a form that users need them. If a system results in so much confusion then it's to those designers and developers that you should look to place the blame.

  30. teknopaul Silver badge

    virtualization has not lived up to its promise.

    in all fairness virtualization was never intended for that use case.

    1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: virtualization has not lived up to its promise.

      It was under CP/CMS and VM/CMS.

      And since virtualization was invented for CP, it would be fair to say that was the original promise.

  31. User McUser

    Three Ways to be Multiple people on the same Windows box

    You can use "Switch User" from the CAD menu to change from one login to another without having to log out - bit of a pain and no shared clipboard between them though.

    Or you can hold down Shift and right-click on an icon and choose "Run As Different User" to launch the app in your user-space but with different credentials - permissions may get weird in this case and things like the Desktop and "My Documents" folders are redirected to the executing user's profile. Plus if the application is installed in the User profile (like Teams is) this won't work at all; ditto for any applications that don't use standard .LNK shortcut files (looking at you, Microsoft Office) though you can manually create new shortcuts as needed.

    If you want to get fancy, AND have the "Pro" or Enterprise version of Windows you can use the Remote Application feature with localhost to run with different credentials though this takes a LOT of work to implement correctly. The good news is that you'll have access to your own files and folders through the RDP protocol. Bad news, it uses the RDP protocol. This utility helps a lot by setting up the Remote App settings for you: https://github.com/kimmknight/remoteapptool and providing a handy .RDP file as well.

    1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

      Re: Three Ways to be Multiple people on the same Windows box

      So to sum it up, none of those three ways will do what the author wanted.

  32. Ian Mason
    Joke

    "... whatever Teams calls its sub-Slack group chat system."

    John Wayne ... ? (I suspect only Rupert will get this. Well, him and anyone old enough and imbued with sufficient Slack.)

    I'll get my coat. It's the one with a pipe in the pocket.

    1. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: "... whatever Teams calls its sub-Slack group chat system."

      John Wayne ... ?

      Rough, tough and not taking any shit? But that's about Izal, not Slack.

  33. Dropper

    Multiple Accounts

    If you want to access multiple Microsoft accounts without resorting to multiple vms, make liberal use of incognito browser windows and never save your passwords - unless you have a multi-platform, multi-browser, password manager.

    And no one does this well - as you stated, everything assumes that each user will only have one account. I admin 4 separate Office 365 systems, 2 of which use the "hybrid" combo of an on-prem mail server + Exchange 365. I have migrated users from Google Workspace to Exchange 365 several times - and what I learned is the more forgetful a system is, the better.

    Saving passwords nearly always ends up being more of a hindrance than a help, and even if software says it can handle multiple profiles, usually that's an outright lie if you need to do anything remotely administrative.

  34. Laquey
    Thumb Down

    Pretty much wrong

    So reading through this I only agreed with one item on the list, Teams, and a little bit about AD.

    Pretty much everything else on this opinion piece is wrong, how do I know this? My wife just got a new job which involved an enterprise O365 workplace. She has a phone, a work PC and a personal PC as devices she will use for this job.

    Personal PC:

    Using a local windows non admin account she has mapped a personal microsoft account to it, she has now added the enterprise MS account. Office works with both accounts pretty seemlessly, you choose a default and it will access other resources based on permissions. Edge Chromium is the same, no issue there. Only difference is if you want to sync a profile you can only sync one. Explorer logs the two One drive connections completely separately and you can home them in different directories. First day was working flawlessly.

    Phone is pretty much the same as above.

    Work PC:

    Homed in their AD for internal connections and work.

    AD is an enterprise based management and ownership system, why would you ever want to be managed by two environments, it would be a nightmare. connecting to other AD resources has never really been an issue except multiple accounts to the same servers IPC from one client.

    The only way this would work better on Windows is to craft tab based authorisation in applications like Edge / Firefox / etc al. Credentials tend to be managed and access on a per process level and since tabs are processes now this would work easily. And if the OP is so fussed that they can't manage with just windows run WSL2 and windows terminal + your favorite Unix distro.Proft?

  35. Confuciousmobil

    I like it

    I like Teams (mostly) apart from its lack of multi monitor support.

    But I have a PC for work and iPads for personal use (I do have a laptop but very rarely use it).

    I work with computers all day and have done since the early 80s, I like something I don’t have to worry about for personal use and keep my work and private life separate.

    By the sounds of the posts here, I am in a minority of one.

    1. RaeStr

      Re: I like it

      Have the upvote for the segregation of work and life technologies. Have to disagree about Teams, tho'.

    2. Stoneshop Silver badge

      Re: I like it

      By the sounds of the posts here, I am in a minority of one.

      Work has furnished me with a laptop. Which I use for work and work-adjacent stuff. The other computers (servers, desktops and laptops) are my own, and will NOT be used for work or work-related stuff. Plus, they're all Linux, which just doesn't work that well with the access methods to get into our office environment and from there in our work environment. The only exception is when it's convenient to have one extra screen to display yet one more document when the screens attached to 'the other side' have all their pixels in use already; this is used both ways. But displaying a work document involves a hefty bit of faff and is used only in extreme cases where it would involve actual documents, not just public web pages. Screens, keyboard and trackball are shared via KVM, but that's dictated by the available desk area.

  36. mmonroe

    That syncing feeling

    We foolishly ditched shared drives and had everyone move their files too Teams. Apparently, company hosted shared drives weren't secure enough !?! Now we get regular calls that Teams hasn't synced. "I've put a file on Teams and nobody else can see it" or more inconveniently "I did some work on my home PC and it isn't here in the office". Thankfully, I still use a shared drive and memory sticks and I never have sync problems.

    During lockdown, Team meetings were a nightmare. I couldn't use it on my Linux box (not a fault of Linux - it doesn't have mike or speakers), so I had to take an M$ laptop home. The installed program was unreliable; at least the web version seemed to hold up.

  37. JDX Gold badge

    W11 has already been released?

    Kind of sounds like "person who dislikes Windows deliberately makes using Windows difficult so they can complain about Windows" to me. You see it all the time with various tech, once someone decides X is bad they seem to go out of their way to make it bad so they can get nice and cross about it.

  38. mistersaxon

    Top right corner

    That icon there? The one that, when clicked, shows all the organisations your ID is registered to? The button with the option to add a "personal account"? Is that the button you can't find?

    It's in the top right corner.

    (Yes, yes, I am sure you're all so complex and integrated that it doesn't work for you, and this is, admittedly, the MacOS Teams client, not the Windows one. But still.)

  39. Trollslayer
    Devil

    I have worked it out.

    Windows 11 is being develop to suit schedules for government projects.

  40. groudie

    A Linux users different perspective

    I have slowly but surely taken a less religious approach to my choice of OS. Gone are the days of my proselytizing for any mobile or desktop platform and I now encourage people to use the tools that suits their workflow the best, even if that is Temple OS.

    I have been a Linux user for close to a decade, if not longer. Though no platform is perfect I was very happy with my platform of choice. Up to a week ago, if you told me I would migrate from the stability of Fedora and the sweetness of Gnome 40 to a pre-beta of Windows I would have called you insane. Yet, the unthinkable happened. I went from being a full-time desktop Linux user for many years to a full-time Windows user in the space of days.

    Windows 11 has been a joy to use and is simulating all the right sensations that I felt using Linux for all these years - namely fun, willingness to explore and eagerness to boot and use. Though, as a developer and tinkerer I'm sure I'll learn and grow slower than I would in a Linux environment - I'm okay with that trade off though. Windows is fun and I never thought I'd say that...

    I am praying this preview of W11 doesn't have any show stopping or deal breaking bugs because I would go back to Linux before I have to suffer the indignity of having to use Windows 10 again.

    Just my two cents as a fellow Linux(ex??) user. Your workflow is different to mine. I couldn't care less about Teams since very few things I do require it(I've only used it once ever). I also don't manage or switch accounts so there is that. Windows might not be the right tool for you but for me, with Windows 11, I think it might be for me, even more so than Linux.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A Linux users different perspective

      groudie: "1 post • joined 13 Jul 2021"

      Hi there, astroturf account!

  41. Unicornpiss
    Meh

    Recent experience

    I recently had to assist a contractor that freelances for many companies get on 'our' Teams, and connect to 'our' VPN. Had a lot of fun getting the thing to use the correct Microsoft ID to register his credential for remote access. Just when we thought everything was signed out and we were signing in with the correct ID, it would suddenly choose yet another one that was cached on his machine. Eventually after cleaning his Credential Manager, trying several browsers, deleting everything I could find, and general prayers, it suddenly began working.

    Re. Teams: Like so many Microsoft ideas, it has great potential, and does much of what it's supposed to, but with major quirks and aggravations that get resolved at a snail's pace. And of course the random 'feature updates' that no one wanted or needed. Really, it has problems you expect from freeware, except freeware seems to run better on MS OSes than MS products do. Possibly because they weren't developed by committee with a looming deadline and no one communicating, which is the bane of so many companies, regardless of the industry. (some irony I suppose as it's supposed to be the de facto communications suite) I would just be happy if it was a bit less quirky with the audio settings, when everything else seems to get them right. I will say it's leaps and bounds beyond what Skype for Business was, and the call quality usually rivals my SIP phone on my desk. I fear that MS will abandon it for something else developed with a clean slate just when it hits its sweet spot fro usability and most of the bugs have been quashed.

  42. w4d3

    Does the new(ish) Firefox "tab containers" feature not alleviate this issue, even a little? 'Cause that's what it says it's for - having separate accounts of the same site in different tabs in the same browser session.

  43. ForthIsNotDead

    IR35 has its benefits

    I work as an independent consultant, and I have simply started refusing to deal with any of this stuff! Using company provided IT resources is a tax headache as it makes you appear (in the eyes of HMRC) to be a de-facto employee, so I've simply stopped dealing with all this stuff.

    * "We'll give you an office laptop" - no can't do - it may affect my IR35 status by making me a de-facto employee.

    * "We'll give you a company phone" - hell no - see above.

    * "We'll also set you up on company email" - hell no. That will 100% fuck up my IR35 status. I'm a CONSULTANT, I don't work for you, I work for me.

    * "We'll get you set up on teams" - see above. If you want to contact me, phone me, text me, or email me on MY company email address. I don't work for you.

    I don't even use company networks when I'm on site. I use my own 4G hotspot.

    I know it's arrogant but if you're an independent you have to get your shit together on this stuff. I have good relationships with my clients and they understand the hassle I have to deal with to maintain my independent status.

    Companies have got to start getting their heads around this. The only exception I make is I will accept a network ID/login because I sometimes need one to access source code repos and the like. Same with a VPN account. The payoff is - I don't have all the shit with Teams, Skype, Slack etc. to deal with.

  44. Frank Thynne

    Bad Software is Everywhere Because we Tolerate it.

    ... and we shouldn't

    We tolerate it because the licence terms leave us powerless to resist it. Microsoft isn't the only culprit, but its monopoly position makes the situation dangerous for all of us.

    Most software licences include exclusions of users' claims for loss or damage. They make it possible for the lawyers of "Big IT" (I draw a parallel with "Big Pharma") to laugh at suffering users and competitors. The licence terms should be declared unenforceable, and purchasers should refuse to accept them.

    Only halting the revenue stream of Big IT will cavalier and reckless treatment of customers become a thing of the past.

  45. ReaddyEddy

    Multiple Teams / Permissions

    It’s a mess, can chat in one team can’t in another, ditto document upload. Can’t control who has what role in meeting, presenter speaker or viewer without going back to the invite in outlook or killing the meeting and starting another. In less than 12 months of use I’ve learned to dread Teams in a way I haven’t done since my mid nineties experiences of having to re-install Win-95/98 after every international trip involving multiple hotspot connections.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Multiple IDs A manageable work around

    I have one nice computer having multiple screen. Several re-purposed laptops running, screens closed sitting on a book shelf.

    Remote desktop into them, each are setup independently, for a particular purpose. For example, one machine is work related. Don't type anything on it which is unrelated to work. Work likes to install screen grabbing and monitoring tools.

    Another machine is dedicated to communication: personal email, messengers, etc.

    If I have some tool, like an IDE which requires performance, run it on the nice machine in a hyper-V windows session, one can remote desktop into has well.

    Full screen each remote desktop session on it own screen.

    There is a bit of inconvenience to copy/paste stuff in-between machines but enough to negate the convince of keeping everything separate.

    The nice machine which most browsing is done on, is setup to be disposable. Has nothing of importance on it. Never backed up. If it starts acting dodgy, Wipe the HD and reinstall. Anything of major importance isn't on the nice machine.

    Re-Purposed laptops of decent performance are inexpensive. If it has a decent amount of memory it can run run several hyper-V installs of windows so one doesn't require a load of re-purposed laptops.

    Personal traveling laptop is disposable as well. A few important passwords are kept on person. Can remote desktop in the remote desktop machine from abroad to retrieve other passwords and other files as needed. Having the traveling laptop turn up missing does not result in a heart attack.

    Since the traveling laptop is setup as disposable, it is practically effortless to wipe and reconfigure the laptop when returning from trips.

    This type of setup fixes more than the multiple ID issue*.

    * A remote desktop computer sitting on a bookshelf at home is a cloud computer which is completely under local control. The vexing issue with Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc is should one ever fall afoul of their terms of service by accident or misfortune, everything stored and associated with that account becomes inaccessible and maybe lost for good.

  47. prs

    Container tabs

    Container tabs on firefox solved the issue pretty well. Try it out incase you haven't.

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