Windows
Windows for Workgroups 10.11
Microsoft on Thursday announced Windows 11, or tried to as an uncooperative video stream left many viewers of the virtual event flummoxed by intermittent transmission gaps in the opening minutes. The technical issues proved bad enough that Matt Velloso, Technical Advisor to the CEO at Microsoft, suggested trying the YouTube …
so they don't want anyone running it in a VM, then? At least, not with VirtualBox...
(as far as I can tell VBox does not support TPM emulation, though it appears that VMWare _DOES_)
I guess this means I will NOT be trying out their new OS. Not like I *really* wanted to, though... (the last time around was JUST! TOO! DISAPPOINTING!!!)
Yeah, I don't want that UEFI crap. I have a 3 GHz dual core PC from probably 2008 that I've been using (HP xw4600). Works perfectly fine after all these years. Though probably it doesn't support UEFI, or, at least I don't have the BIOS configured to use it. I think Microsoft just wants me to finally make the switch to Linux. I don't see what the point of all this is. To give me a features such as running Android apps that I have absolutely no need for? Or, once again, needlessly changing the UI around. They haven't even finished cleaning up all the control panels from Windows 2000, and now what, a new annoying UI again? I am sick and tired of this hoop jumping. I think the industry as a whole is completely out of it's mind. I guess I will return to refusing to upgrade for a decade, or, finally just switch over to Linux and be done with it. Something, smart people did 20 years ago. The company looks like a complete joke. They aren't offering any improvements. They are just changing things around for no good reason. And forcing people to upgrade to new hardware when there would otherwise be no need to do so. They are a pretty terrible company, and they did a really horrible job with the transition from .NET Framework to .NET Core. Another complete fiasco. I'm looking forward to retirement as these companies are completely out of their minds and too far gone. I am stick of jumping through their stupid hoops. I can't believe is was so dumb to buy into their marketing BS for as many years as I did.
Windows 11 is explicitly *not* Windows 10 so you won't be pushed to use it. Windows 10 will remain supported for a number of years.
Don't threaten to switch to Linux, simply do it. It's relatively painless, especially if you use Linux Mint Cinnamon. The UI is familiar enough that you won't have a large learning curve.
We're now waiting to discover whether our compatible hardware will be charged to replace Windows 10 with 11 or be a free upgrade as it has been from Windows 7 onwards.
Why does every Linux supporter only discuss - worry about, promote in regards to, and frequently discuss - the UI??!!
For the *vast* majority of people keeping, or from the start choosing, an OS is mostly NOT about the UI!! It's about what programs run on it and what drivers / devices the OS supports.
MacOS was fantastically popular for a long time because of audio device and system-wide color management support, plus the programs that supported those abilities. Re, desktop publishing, still and moving image editing, and audio mixing. That is, creative workflows. The OS supported the abilities that those applications needed for best performance, and creatives therefore flocked to it.
Windows remains the King of desktop OS's because of code and driver support. Period. Both people and businesses use Windows on the desktop because it runs the apps that they need to get their work done, and supports the hardware components that help in that workflow.
Switching to Linux will NEVER bring those abilities - Windows app support is via a subsystem that does not guarantee compatibility, and driver support DEFINITELY has no compatibility.
Please, please, I beg you people. Linux has its place, but after 20+ years the market has shown that said place is not, and will never be, even a modest portion of the desktop market.
Windows OS is the preferred desktop OS all-right. For the cubicle squatting corporate drones with everything centrally managed, and monitored.
For those of us that actually would like the use of computers to be a pleasurable "experience" (to quote MS) Linux is the obvious choice.
Gaming.. Check
Privacy.. Check
Calm and uninterrupting.. Check
Stable.. Check
Powerful.. Check
Not for anyone creative, for a start: I can't run anything Adobe on it. Nor the largest variety of image editing applications, to make a point. Even if you don't want Adobe Photoshop, you can't run DXO either, for example, and therefore also forget about AfterEffects or ANY industry-compatible desktop publishing.
No Photoshop OR InDesign, even after all these years?? Linux can kiss my rear.
Linux can't run any of the dedicated interface programs that all my office CAD printers and 3D mills require. Nor will it run a single one of the custom industry-specific apps that I use daily, except in a compatibility box (WINE).
Again, you won't admit the fundamental limitations of Linux on the desktop, whilst the market is very much aware of them and has therefore prevented Linux from making any inroads in the desktop market.
You are in IT, an area where Linux excels (of course), so the IT developers creating Linux software focus on making IT-centric apps, which you find useful and appealing.
The rest of the desktop market does not; a wonderful Linux IDE does not serve non-IT users.
Linux is actually GREAT for two types of users, NOT the ones that you specify: (a) IT industry / developers, and (B) non-power users who can settle for the standard / available OSS software instead of the more powerful paid alternatives (note: video editing with DaVinci Resolve on Linux is, pretty much, the only exception to this rule).
So, I guess you are fine being smacked around by an authoritarian corporation that does whatever they want regardless of what their customers think. And forces them to dispose of hardware that has nothing wrong with it, other than it doesn't allow Microsoft to inflict its customers with DRM and take away their freedoms. Microsoft doesn't even bother asking their customers what they want. If they did, they wouldn't arbitrarily be forcing UEFI and TPM on them. If you want that, then fine, add support for it, but, don't screw your customers over who don't. They just want people to go out and buy new hardware, that's all. It is obvious that they do not care about security. Look at all the holes in it that they have to constantly patch. And TPM will do nothing to fix that. I want to know why the idiot Store apps open up a million firewall rules even for apps that aren't listening on ports. You can turn all the rules off and on reboot, or when software updates, the come right back again 5 minutes later. That is a flat out broken design. It is gross incompetence that their software does that, and after years, Microsoft has done nothing to fix it. "Secure by default" Yeah right. Their whole "Trusted Security Initiative" is a joke.
Please, let's grow the -f- up for once! I'm going to do some slapping of my own here.
Using our computers is NOT about yelling "Freedom!!" and "But Big Corp!". We use our computers TO GET A JOB DONE.
Period. That personal computer is in front of us to get something accomplished, be that this quarter's reports or a rocking time of shoot-em-up entertainment.
And yet here you are, the typical OSS fanatic. Worrying about OS "Freedom" whilst the REST OF US only care about whether or not it will actually function in the way we need it it - whether it fundamentally provides the functionality to make this computer in front of us worth anything at all.
Why do we 'stand' being 'slapped around' by some big corporation's OS?? BECAUSE YOUR OSS SOFTWARE DOES NOT DO WHAT WE NEED.
I'm getting PAID for my photography work. I'lm getting PAID when I do graphic design work. My co-worker is getting PAID for her 3D CAD design work and subsequent CAM output.
And Linux's tools in ALL those fields?? Amateur level! If they exist at all. GIMP not only doesn't handle adjustment layers, a HUGE negative to any professional photo editing, it doesn't even handle CMYK, meaning that it can't be integrated into a graphics design workflow. Linux can't drive 3 of the 4 CAD/CAM output devices (2 printers and one mill) in our office, never you mind the fact that Linux can't run any CAD software that is normally used in our design industry.
Linux is GREAT with STEM programs but everything else has lagged behind for decades now (except OpenOffice and Resolve).
Linux has now made great inroads into professional video editing thanks to DaVinci Resolve. But, before that?? Not a single professional video technician would even THINK of using Linux, it just didn't have programs with the power level that was necessary.
And that's the secret word for this discussion: NECESSARY. We use Windows and MacOS because they are NECESSARY to run the applications that are NECESSARY for our lives. There's not much choice.
If OSS GAVE us a real choice - pro-level industry apps - then yes, I would indeed probably switch. I tried back on Linux 5.2. And found out that everything ELSE in the OSS ecosystem wasn't to the development level of the OS.
And 20+ years later I'm pretty much STILL waiting (OpenOffice, Resolve and a few others excepted).
This windows 11 nonsense was the final straw for me. I am writing this from my Mint desktop and it is faster and more efficient than windows from what I am finding.
No more Windows for me :) and I can play my games in Steam on Linux without Wine. I am finding no downside to dumping windows.
You might be able to turn on TPM 2.0 by flipping an option in the BIOS settings.
> Android apps is an interesting one
Yes, I really want to see Google and Microsoft code fighting over your private data: "It's mine!" "No, I saw it first!"...
.
Fortunately Microsoft hasn't yet finished turning Linux into a Windows feature, so we still do have some choice in the matter.
(Former Microsoft OS user (from DOS 2 to Win7))
"Just checked around the office. Only half of our PC's can support Windows 11 due to the TPM chip requirement. So that's a no-go."
Denied the 'right' to run a supported Windows OS on your good hardware. Are MS promoting landfill like they did to netbooks when Vista* was launched?
Oh well it's an opportunity in 2025 or even before for the unchosen to choose a genuine KDE-esque experience. Other GUIs are available and so are the distros that support them.
Time now to not get entrapped into the Microsoft Teams ecosystem which may leave you no choice down the line. Unless you believe in a God who chooses who he will let into his particular conception of paradise.
*The inability to run Vista as a supported OS caused us to try and eventually switch to Linux. Some pain in the transition but who is smiling smugly now?
>>Time now to not get entrapped into the Microsoft Teams ecosystem which may leave you no choice down the line.
My Manjaro laptop runs Teams just fine....
OK Microsoft may kill the ability to build Teams for other platforms sometime, but so far so good; the fellas who do that sort of thing for the Arch user repository ecosystem are maintaining a current Teams package.
YMMV of course (depending on your distro of choice)
Another global shortage approaches plus a huge number of perfectly viable devices then being binned.
Is it really that critical for the average consumer? I can see why some commercial outfits may need TPM but to enforce it on everything.....
Yes, I know they can install Linux etc. but many simply don't have the knowledge or cannot be bothered. I have not dabbled with Chrome for a long time, can this just be installed on something that ran Windows as the only OS?
"Just checked around the office. Only half of our PC's can support Windows 11 due to the TPM chip requirement. So that's a no-go."
Way down the comments on this article, someone has suggested that the TPM 2.0 requirement is only confirmed for beta testing release and therefore perhaps not for the final version.
Can anyone pin the TPM 2.0 requirement down? Domestic users only? Beta trial versions only? All installations?
Otherwise I'm thinking of vast waste and extra cost for large IT estates (think NHS, civil service, local authorities and so on) for no special benefit (they sit behind firewalls of various qualities on networks that are monitored in various ways). I feel my once-a-decade letter to my MP coming on.
>Can anyone pin the TPM 2.0 requirement down?
MS have (as of 24-Jun-2021) published the Win11 platform specifications:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
Also as a more detailed document here (TPM isn't the only thing you need to look out for):
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/minimum-hardware-requirements-overview
Additionally, they have published a listing of supported processors:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements
Note you need to have TPM enabled in the BIOS for the Windows 11 compatibility checker to find it. Also, there are debates going on about support for fTPM (firmware TPM) embedded in the CPU compared to a motherboard-based hardware TPM chip, with some recent AMD Ryzen CPU's (with fTPM) not being deemed compatible with Win11.
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Downvote for avoiding a good question with moronic abuse. But on a positive note I'm not calling you a eugenist. They may have been terribly mistaken but they were mostly quite smart ;-)
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I'm not that concerned about various governments looking at my computer use; I am though very concerned about ghastly marketing firms and things like Microsoft reading my data.
Selling someone an operating system does not include the included right to check what the buyer is doing with his computer for ever more.
Microsoft would like to collect info, but they do ask during installation. It's easy to say no to everything apart from basic telemetry, and that's a small price to pay for the extra security that information allows them to provide.
And yes, I know Windows is arguably the least secure mainstream OS, but nevertheless it has improved hugely over the years - and basic telemetry is one of those things that helped bring that about.
If you or I knew the answer to that then we wouldn’t be having this conversation because one of us would be genuinely clairvoyant and along with knowing what the PRC, Russians and NSA have compromised in our software supply chains we’d also know that this conversation was a waste of time with no positive outcome for anyone involved.
The thing is, we know commercial software has been compromised by intelligence agencies in the past, including holding on to vulnerabilities in Windows, so there's no particular use in asserting open source dependencies are compromised in particular (looking forward to bugs: "Regression, remote access exploit no longer works after commit abc123"). If they want to compromise open source they'll at least have to put some effort into maintaining it. MS have been less dislikeable recently, but as with Apple their goal is user lock-in, telemetry and requiring online accounts are moves towards that goal, the best we can hope for is they see utility and interoperability as a better way to achieve customer loyalty.
It may be worth waiting to see what "requiring online accounts" really means.
The mainstream belief for a large number of users/sites/blogs is that an online account is already necessary in Windows 10, but we know that is not the case as there are at least two ways to install without one. That may well be the case with 11 as well, in that generally speaking you need an account but in reality there are workarounds.
No need for whataboutism, just check the MS website:
Windows 11 Home edition requires an Internet connection and a Microsoft Account to complete device setup on first use.
I'm hoping that maybe O&O ShutUp 10 will be turned up to 11 for just that purpose.
Also:
"Chat from Microsoft Teams has been integrated in the taskbar"
...seriously? I really hope I can kill that one with fire. Native(ish) Android apps sounds good though. I have no desire for a smartphone, but people insist on communicating via WhatsApp etc., so I'm running BlueStacks at the moment, which is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. (As an aside, I bet BlueStacks are rather worried about their business model right now...)
"I have no desire for a smartphone"
How do you get around the requirement for a phone number to verify against?
Huh? There are phone numbers for phones which are not smartphones.
(Personally, I find the idea of running Android apps on Windows fairly repulsive; that's something I would only ever want to do in an emulator I control, not Microsoft, and then only for development purposes. That's an attack-surface expansion I can do without. But tastes differ.)
There is a Windows version of the Whatsapp App in the App store, or you can download an installer if you don't like app stores.
There's also web.whatsapp.com if you don't like to, or can't, install software on your computer. Chrome and Edge allow you to install that website as an App without administrator permissions. Basically it is a desktop / start menu shortcut that links to the web page without the UI elements of the browser.
As I discovered, the web/desktop versions only work if you have it also installed on a phone/tablet/emulator. Not only that, said other version must be actually running and currently connected to the web for you to even use the desktop/web client (making it basically useless in my scenario).
"For businesses, it is just another feature update in the annual series of feature updates they have to deal with in the new 'Windows as a Service' world,"
But this Windows 11 feature update will probably come with a financial cost to businesses as no doubt MS will only be offering the free upgrade route to home users, and enterprise customers will need to pay for Windows 11 licenses. And for them this new Windows might be coming only a couple of years after they spent a lot of time and money to migrated to Windows 10 on the MS marketing promise of that was the last ever Windows version.
I've just checked our Microsoft 365 license, and it includes all OS upgrades during the lifetime of our agreement.
If the business does subscribe to Microsoft 365, and there's no reason most should, then we'll just have to wait and see if the 'free' upgrade includes Pro as well as Home licenses.
That's not how Microsoft licensing works in the Enterprise.
No enterprise will be running Windows 10 home and that's the only version which has ever been free.
We already pay for Windows and we have software assurance so we get whatever the latest version is as part of that.
That's exactly how it was going from XP to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 8.1 and 8.1 to 10.
We just download the latest iso from the volume license centre and crack on....
To encourage the purchase of new computers in the absence of large increases in computing power?
tpm.msc
tells me that the perfectly serviceable Thinkpad X230 that my partner uses to run Windows 10, teams, zoom and her basic software has a TPM 1.2 standard chip fitted, and so will not be able to run Windows 11 if we believe the press release.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/switch-pcr-banks-on-tpm-2-0-devices
TPM 2 devices have extra memory locations that can store a set of SHA1 hashes between boots. Perhaps some form of hardware fingerprint?
Free upgrades: anyone taking bets on an auto-upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11 failing to check the TPM standard and refusing to boot once installed?
Free upgrades: anyone taking bets on an auto-upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11 failing to check the TPM standard and refusing to boot once installed?
Nope, but I'll lay good odds that it'll happen for the first week or so of the initial rollout to people living in the Fast Release (or beta build, Insider, or whatever it's called this month) group.
Any my personal workstation is either Not Compatible, or has a TPM module that I've disabled in the BIOS because windows 7 doesn't use it. :(
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Typically useless "Check tool" from Microsoft... run the thing:
This PC can't run Windows 11
While this PC doesn't meet the system requirements to run Windows 11, you'll keep getting Windows 10 updates.
[Learn More]
Does the [Learn More] link tell me what about my PC does not meet the requirements of Windows 11? Like fuck it does. Just a page of requirements.
Typically similar to the all too common moronic "an error has happened" type error response (as in "we know what the error is but we're too lazy or stupid to trap it and to give information").
Eh. MS has spent the last 25 years battling the security holes they themselves put into Windows. Do they really think they can simply wave their magic wand to add Android capability to the mix and it'll all just miraculously work and take us to rainbow-unicorn land? I've got a feeling the dark-underbelly guys are already rubbing their hands together in gleeful anticipation of the coming slaughter.
"The new UX isn't so much of a change that it would require user retraining,"
HA! You want to try working with people who moan that they can't still have XP or Widows 7 and bleat on a regular basis that they can't understand why things have to change. One day I'd love to introduce someone from M$ and the rest to the few thousand OAPs (average age 87!) I have to deal with.
You should carry out a user study one day. You might find that users really are faster with Windows XP.
The interface was simpler, snappier and didn't have slow fades subtly slowing down the users.
Similar user studies did show that the Win9x interface was faster than the older 3.1 interface too showing that the pinnacle was reached in early 2000s and has only been downhill since.
That said, I don't think Microsoft even has the skills to carry out proper usability studies any more.
They also invested millions into user interface metrics and research and produced very good style and usability guides.
These were immediately ignored by other departments within Microsoft such as the department responsible for Microsoft Office.
I suspect they gave up with this investment as it was not generating immediate profit and also was not being used by their own developers.
"That said, I don't think Microsoft even has the skills to carry out proper usability studies any more."
Sure they do. The MS Marketing department asks the Graphics Design department how they expect a Windows computer to work, and, voila, usability study.
That's the only thing that makes sense in explaining everything since Win8...
XP was a piece of crap - buggy and unstable. Even Vista was an improvement - but Win 7 was "Peak Windows". M$ and Apple both are on a smartphone kick - wanting their respective products to mimic the smartphone user experience, removing features and trashing the UI to accomplish that.
I use computers, not smartphones. No thank you.
"You want to try working with people who moan that they can't still have XP or Widows 7 and bleat on a regular basis that they can't understand why things have to change."
You mean like a sizeable percentage of El Reg's commentards? Don't get them started on the ribbon interface, either, or you'll never hear the end of it!
I prefer Win10 to 7 and XP for a variety of reasons but the Ribbon interface can still go to hell, go directly to hell and forget about even looking at that £200.
The only way I've found to live with its existence is to have carefully cultivated a career in which I never need to open an office application. I begrudgingly accept it in pbrush.exe because it seems like an appropriate place for it.
Need a 8th Gen intel or more, tpm.
My top end surface book 1 i7 16Gb can't be upgraded.
The community is going nuts already.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install/windows-11-qa/d3317d2c-d0d2-4ace-8672-a9425fce9124
I still remember VISTA, went out and bought MACs for the whole family.
Except Apple is less viable than before moving to Mx.
With a few tweaks people are running the leaked Windows 11 on all sorts of hardware. On installation there is a window that pops up telling you the hardware is not suitable, however that's really the only problem. There are methods to get past that.
In answer to 2, no, they most certainly will not have all the settings in one place. They are to incompetent to do that. 20 years of not doing it has proven that. Instead, they will add yet another parallel layer of settings to further confuse matters. And yet still probably muck around with the old settings too so that you can't find anything there either (not that you ever could).
From the article :
CEO Satya Nadella concluded the presentation with a statement of purpose that positions Microsoft – the monopolist of decades past – as the champion of openness, at least compared to its rival Apple.
So, Microsoft are not as bad as Apple, so they can claim being open ?. Was he laughing when he said that ?
Microsoft will always be the monopoly for PC's. They know it, and that's why they can pull the crap such as forcing you to purchase a new PC when windows 10 is unsupported.
Unless you move to Linux.
2024, the year of the Linux desktop. Hurrah.
"horse shit". Exactly the word I wanted to use in an earlier comment but feared would be censored. Yes, the closer you get to retirement, the more you realize that you wasted your life on "horse shit" working with this crap day in and day out. A constant rearranging of the chairs on the Titanic while the planet burns.
You jest, but remember that younger adults these days (i.e. the future market) are quite happily moving from phone/tablet/tv-thing/laptop/car and mode-switching amongst the various interfaces.
A generation of *perfectly fine* corporate laptops rendered unsupported and sold to the refurbishers may well end up being deployed with a suitable linux and sold on.
Alternatively, Microsoft may be complaining that businesses are failing to update in a few years (because the businesses don't want to send perfectly usable devices to refurb/landfil)
Businesses generally update to stay out of trouble. They don't want to find no one can support their computers because they are too far out of date. However many will take that risk and stick with what works, never looking to improve what's good enough.
The computer industry on the other hand is always excited about the amazing new things computers can do. In many cases these are worth while but only makes sense if someone is there to applied these new abilities to the business.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications
"Windows 11 Home edition requires internet connectivity and a Microsoft account to complete device setup on first use."
Just no. I won't be 'upgrading'.
Not that I can having either the wrong CPU (works fine with Windows 10 currently) or old TPM version (ditto). Can't tell which as the PC Health Check doesn't give any details.
What a waste for the environment come 2025. Make it an optional Windows 10 feature update instead.
I was going to say that it wouldn't matter if Microsoft Windows could run Android apps, if it isn't licensed for Google Play.
But then I realized that even if Google's web site for apps won't recognize a Windows 11 computer as a 'compatible device', nearly everyone with an Android app they want people to use would of course also submit it to the Microsoft Store.
So this is significant.
How can they seriously make that a requirement? Very few PCs will be upgradeable to 11, so either they will have to support Windows 10 for a decade or Apple will be supporting iPhones longer than Microsoft supports PCs.
What in the world is Microsoft thinking here?
The TPM 2.0 spec was finalized in late 2019, how could you offer TPM 2.0 compliance before the spec is even finalized? You sure you aren't thinking about TPM 1.2 devices, those have been around longer.
Now maybe 2.0 was pretty well set in stone a year or two earlier, there's always a lot of red tape when a standards organization blesses a spec. But I'd be highly skeptical of anything that claims to be TPM 2.0 that was made in say 2016 - there's only so much update via software you can do, particularly of a standard that is supposed to be hardware based. If it is so easily updated via software, what stops malicious actors from "updating" 2.0 devices in a way that totally compromises them?
The reason I think they are insisting on 2.0 is that there are some pretty serious attacks on 1.2, some of which are supposedly unfixable. They have to keep Hollywood happy or they won't let you view their content on Windows 11!
TPM 2 devices pre-date the official spec (Standards always take time) - My kids laptops have it and they hail from 2017 - Google trawl suggests 2014 for first devices?
BTW, Moaning about WIndows 11 Home needing an MS account - anyone got far with an iphone without an apple account or Chromebook/android without a Google account - the world is what it is...
"The TPM 2.0 spec was finalized in late 2019, how could you offer TPM 2.0 compliance before the spec is even finalized? You sure you aren't thinking about TPM 1.2 devices, those have been around longer."
I'm certain. Conversion software for (some) TPM chips to from 1.2 to 2.0 has been available for quite some time from the usual computer manufacturers.
Digging around, it seems that the TPM authority has released the latest revision of TPM 2.0 last year, and the earliest revision there is from 2013.
"If it is so easily updated via software, what stops malicious actors from "updating" 2.0 devices in a way that totally compromises them?"
The TPM chips very likely only accept updates that are cryptographically signed. Just like most BIOS and other firmware updates these days.
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I'm a Windows user, actually. It just seems a bit disappointing for a major new version. So the taskbar is now centred, and you can run Android apps. Is that it? Did Microsoft actually ask Windows users what they wanted, as I can't imagine many saying "Gee, it would be great if I could run Android apps".
There's plenty of software you can install to run an android device virtually on a PC, be it the android dev kit from Google or simple stand alone stuff like Nox, LDPlayer etc. (free & ad infested to monetize aimed at non techy folks who cannot use Googles android dev kit or otherwise set up an android VM)
Back (years ago) when I did some android dev stuff, all my android development was on an emulated android on the PC & it only went on a real mobile device for "real world" testing after it had been fully tested in the virtual environment (which was great as could easily test all sorts of different "phones" - different android versions, screen size, DPI etc - far better than just using a few random "real" phones you had around as allows a real mix of different setups to be tested)
"given they clearly said Windows 10 was the final release"
They kind of never did. Jerry Nixon (a developer evangelist at MS) said "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows." So it's true that he said this. Once. It's also true that when asked about it, MS has never confirmed this to be true. Sure, they didn't deny it either.
This quote is very much over-reported.
"And if you do bring your own commerce engine, you keep 100 per cent of your revenue, we keep zero."
24th June, 2021. Keep the date. This is the kind of promise that will get slowly watered down a bit at a time, until nobody makes a fuss when it is reversed entirely. At least, assuming they're successful in driving more developers to use their "Store". This sounds like Microsoft from the old days, promising vendors everything, then doing the opposite.
I only stopped using Vista 7 months ago. (Despite all the initial furore, once the UAC had been tamed; the services trimmed and few other annoyances defanged, it was a rock solid OS -- my best uptime was 4 1/2 years, ended by a local power cut. Best of all, no tracking and I controlled the updates.)
The need for new hardware finally prompted me to upgrade; but only after I'd spent a year researching the web for how to take control of Windows 10; the final element was the release of the newer versions of the SledgeHammer.
By about 2030, the new generation of keen, young activists will have worked out how to tame MS's desires in treat their users like sheep, and poke their fingers into every orifice and load up MY PC with a bunch of crap I have no use for and wouldn't use if I did; at that point -- assuming I'm still alive and retain the mental faculties and incentive to find and follow the usually baroque sets of instructions and procedures required to take back control, I might consider installing it -- if I need to.
Otherwise, I guess I'll get a chromebook.
That was the disastrous Windows Mobile 8. Mobiles are now powerful enough to run the full OS. Microsoft has a big advantage over Apple in this area in being a software first company. So where Apple would never allow full macOS to run on an iPad, for fear of cannibalising sales in other areas, Microsoft is free to provide a phone or tablet that can be all things to all people*.
* Though they did try and fail with this in the tablet space. Samsung shows the way in this area, with its DEX product.
EVERY APP STORE HAS MALWARE, Be it the one from Apple, Google, Amazon you name it.
Is a growing problem, if not even Apple walled garden can keep malware truly away, what can you expect for Windows? More so as we already had just a few months ago, a case of "Run Android Apps on Windows and Linux" have severe security issues.
Yeah, it's weird, for sure. I can see running Linux stuff on Win Server, not so much on desktop. Not really sure what the Android compatibility brings them long-term - certainly seems a lot of work just to run fart-apps and games and apps that mostly make me wish I was on a full computer.
Maybe MS just wants to finally run a popular phone OS...
Most non-trivial Android apps are compiled to native code. Usually written in C++, but other compiled languages with C bindings are used too.
Part of the reason Microsoft can do this is because Windows 10 already supports OpenGL/OpenGL ES (via ANGLE) and Vulkan.
Every phone app is hardware accelerated as the CPUs aren't great at pushing pixels, so that part is critical to support.
Oh no.
(letting apart the case of native code)
Java as a source language, yes (though you should have a look at Kotlin).
But Android does not run a standard JVM:
Java bytecode is transformed into something very specific to Android before your phone dares to execute application.
You need to know about Microsoft Windows 11. It's the latest thing from a dominant monopoly therefore avoiding it is near impossible and counter-productive unless your mentality is one of "I don't like what I am seeing therefore I am going to shut my eyes and walk around blindly pretending that I didn't see it".
As for what you need to know about Microsoft Windows 11? Largely that it's little more than a minor UI reskin, a further attempt to lock users into Microsoft's online rental ecosystem, all with an extra sprinkling of needless hardware requirements to enforce unnecessary hardware churn.
"As for what you need to know about Microsoft Windows 11? Largely that it's little more than a minor UI reskin, a further attempt to lock users into Microsoft's online rental ecosystem, all with an extra sprinkling of needless hardware requirements to enforce unnecessary hardware churn."
Oh man. You hit the nail on the head on that one. Good comment. Nice and succinct and cuts to the core.
With the TPM and other stupid requirements, this will just be what happened with Windows 7 all over again. Namely, tons of people refusing to upgrade, as well they shouldn't with Microsoft's stupid authoritarian decision making that is based on nothing but making them more $$$$$.
"Personal computing requires choice. We need to nurture and grow our own agency over computing itself. We want to remove the barriers that too often exist today and provide real choice and connection."
Requiring a UEFI bios and TPM 2 (even if not using Bitlocker it sounds like) and forcing people to have a Microsoft account to carry on the install for Windows 11 Home is fucking choice.
I'm an IT engineer by day, but more and more I'm getting dishearted with the way Windows is going. Soon it will be software as a service "No Internet? Tough tits. Move out of the stick or use something else. We don't care, it will be software as a service and you will pay the yearly sub for it".
Its why I'll be keeping hold of my current PC and my spare for years. So if I want to go back to old games and the glory days, I can.
This doesn't even make sense - by the end of W10 support in 2025 there are still going to be millions (hundreds of millions?) of perfectly good PCs and laptops running W10 without TPM2 that can't be upgraded. Are they going to be left without security patches etc after 2025?
Also, I bet they get rid of mspaint leaving only paint3D - a deal breaker for me!
I knew they would disallow a local account even before the announcement - they have been wanting to do this for a long time.
Wonder if they will stop using the HOSTS file, thus removing one way of stopping ads etc?
One thing I predict is that they will remove the various ways we have of stopping automatic windows update eg by making the update and medic services unstappable.
While I understand why Microsoft are insisting on UEFI and TPM this is going to slow down take up massively. Of my machines only one meets the requirements. I don't know why one laptop doesn't as Microsoft's tool helpfully doesn't report why. As I build my my own desktops none has a TPM module. I did consider adding one to my main machine a couple of years back. I have been considering updating my gaming machine and this buts that is now on the backburner until mainboard manufacturers make TPM modules standard not an add on you can plug in if you can track one down. Since all my machines are stable and perform sufficiently for there jobs I don't see me spending money just to make them Windows 11 compatible. Until faced with a hardware failure or performance drops below an acceptable level I shall just keep running Windows 10. And if that takes me past 2025 then reluctantly I shall run Windows 10 unsupported. My personal guess is there are sufficient people in a similar position that like with Windows 7 Microsoft will be forced to extend support
Same. Are charity worked for has a training room with old kit in. Doesn't need to be fancy, its good enough. All upgraded to Windows 10 just fine with SSDs slapped in. However, now, none of them will be able to use Windows 11 if a TPM2 chip is required.
It doesn't appear to be about security in my eyes, more like DRM.
> this is going to slow down take up massively
It occurred to me this morning that perhaps something Microsoft learned from Windows 10 was that a slower take-up can be beneficial for them. Windows 10 as it exists today is very different to the launched version five years ago, it has evolved and changed as the population has grown. And today, they have 1.3 billion live instances, which isn't too shabby.
I wonder if perhaps this has been seen as a good experience for Microsoft?
GJC
Just for a giggle I thought I test my main laptop - its still running W7. FUN - the compatibility tool requites W10 to run. I do have one (old HP laptop) in the house running W10 so I may try it on that later.
Looks like I'll keep on with W7 on the three PCs mainly in use and Mint on my ultraportable.
The complete list of Android applications anyone wants to actually run on Windows?
Yes, there we go, that was a long list. I accept it's a useful capability (sort of) for development reasons. But not that useful. You absolutely will want to test on real hardware. This is a desperation response to the rise of Chromebook; and fails to acknowledge why Chromebook is doing well. Price tag, familiarity, performance adequate for the applications it's needed on.
Regarding the TPM2 requirement. A cursory google suggests most of work supplied tools post 2018 either has, or can be flashed to upgrade to TPM2. If the manufacturer chooses to release such an update. Otherwise, it is an e-waste generator in a time when PC hardware is already in short supply. 2018 isn't old in an era where PC's hardware performs well even if 5 to 10 years old. 2025 might be the 10 retirement date; so at that point 7yr old kit falling out of support is to be expected. Though remember the last 18 months of Win7 support weren't exactly shining lights; enforced obsolescence to motivate sales.
This feels like the manufacturing consortia have pressured MS to put in a requirement to help motivate sales further.
As for the visual fluff - don't care. QOL improvements? Can't see anything.
If anyone asks me for a recommendation - and doesn't know what they are doing - Chromebook or M1 depending on objective. For anyone that does know their way around a computer. Flatten and install BSD or Linux of choice. Come and join us!
Someone asked me for laptop advice for their young child. They had found a Windows 10 machine with 4GB RAM. I assumed that when they said Laptop they wanted Windows so I said that 4GB would be horrible to use. Instead we selected a Chromebook which was cheaper than the Windows 10 machine but worked much better. No complaints that it was not Windows 10, perfectly happy with what the Chromebook does.
I think Windows is only needed for legacy support. If the user does not have prior Windows requirements then they more choices.
Remember: if it's free, you're the product being sold.
* which is not to say that I won't use it in the same way that I use Gmail. Also shiny. And round corners.
** my personal preference is that until all the old Windows 2000 control panel dialogs are gone, you're not allowed to call it Windows 11.
*** actually, I wonder if Windows 2000 still works in 2021?
So, no Android or Tablet for you? Need a Google account
So, no Apple device for you. Needs an Apple account
Yes, lets pelt Microsoft for doing exactly what the other manufacturers do.
I knew this whole thread would be juvenile MS hating.
We even had the proverbial Micro$oft etc.
Still frequented by 11 year olds.
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> lets pelt Microsoft for doing exactly what the other manufacturers do
So what if others do it too? Billions of flies eat crap, does this really mean we should do the same?
Windows was (till recently) the OS you could run without an "account" requirement. You could make one if you needed one (dev or IT guy), but it wasn't mandatory.
You might ask why not have an account, it's not like it costs anything. Well, it does make things more complicated as you need a working internet connection at all times (which is fine if you stay at home, but not guaranteed on the road or in the boonies), not to mention I'm not comfortable handing out my name and address to anybody who asks.
I was a stanch supporter of Microsoft once, I've been using PCs since the original two-floppies "IBM PC" running DOS. I've bought and used Windows 3, 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, XP (32 and 64-bit), 7 (32 and 64-bit), but when Microsoft turned hostile I slammed the door and went Linux. Don't try to sugarcoat me the train wreck that is the current Windows marketing. User experience, the one thing users actually care about, has steadily gone down since WinXP. Win7 was the last palatable Windows from a user point of view, and even then they had already started to hide settings and make changing them harder and harder.
/rant
(Didn't downvote you though.)
1) You don't need a working Internet connection at all times, only when you are initially installing Windows. It works perfectly well off-line with a Microsoft account, even if your files are stored on OneDrive (they can be cached locally and will sync when you next connect);
2) You don't need to give Microsoft anything other than a valid email address to set up a Microsoft account. And that email address can be dedicated purely for use with a single PC if you like.
GJC
That's your choice to make, knock yourself out. But the choice should be made on the basis of actual real facts, rather than rumour and falsehood, yes?
Me, I run a whole range of OSs, for a whole range of tasks. Windows on the desktop, various flavours of Linux and OpenBSD for server and network stuff, VMware hypervisor underpinning a lot of them, Android on phones and tablets. I think there's a couple of VMS machines in the loft, but that's ancient history. It's all good.
GJC
> But the choice should be made on the basis of actual real facts, rather than rumour and falsehood
Agree, and for me the "account" thing isn't the big issue, it's just the last straw which, taken individually, wouldn't bother me more than that.
The real problem is, as I said above, user experience. My experience, actually. In XP I knew where to look for about everything settings-related, and it was cleanly put in obvious categories, with a consistent UI. In Win7 already some of those settings modules had been replaced by "Wizard" type dialogue panels with the pertinence of a drunken Clippy.
The best example of this evolution is the simple disc checking tool (CHKDSK and its descendants): At first you got a nice full, complete report of what it had found and done. By Win7 Microsoft had decided we didn't need to bother our little heads with such technical things, so no result report at all. If you programmed it to run at startup it would write an entry into the system log (you had to stumble upon it to know), but if you did check a disk on the fly - nothing. Seriously, what would it cost to keep showing the old results window CHKDSK used to show since the very beginning? It's clearly a case of regression for regression's sake.
What's going to happen to all those motherboards that self builders and small shops use? There's going to be one almighty stampede for TPM2 modules.
Dell have got a 'sale' on at the moment and I can't find much mention of Win11 or TPM. Some people are going to be upset in 6 months time when they can't upgrade their 'new' computer...
Also, will we be able to run it in a VM? I'm sure some people would like to run various setups in VMs for testing etc...
will we be able to run it in a VM?
VMWare appears to have TPM virtualization. VirtualBox does NOT, as far as I can tell.
In my search on this subject I have run across one or two TPM software solutions, particularly one on github.
I would expect VirtualBox to support this eventually, but it could end up being a PAYED ENHANCEMENT of some kind (and may not be supported on Linux, and PROBABLY NOT on FreeBSD). But we shall see. If the tech needs ilcensing, money will end up changing hands.
needless to say, if TPM 2 is required, and I can't run it in a virtualbox VM, I will NOT be testing it.
hmmm - interesting : "Our commitment to sustainability
We’re building sustainability into everything we do, including our operations, products, and programs."
"Empowering our customers
We are developing and delivering sustainable solutions, tools, and resources to help our customers accelerate their sustainability progress."
Source : https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sustainability/report
I ran the compatibility check but it was not specific. It simply said I could not run Windows 11. I dont have the time to sit down and work out what is not compatible. I am running windows 10 on a modern laptop. It exceeds all the basics such as processor performance, memory size, disk size, screen size (I am running three screens using a Kensington adaptor), so I am just going to skip it. for a few years.
Windows 11 check says no way hosey, so I check the internet on a Dell 5770 . Some says no some say yes its under TPM in the bios on some models of that number.
Check bios no TPM setting but there is a PTT which when enabled passes the Microsoft checks......
Here's my problem with Windows 11: Graphic card, DirectX 12 & WDDM 2.x
I bough components to build a brand new computer in December 2020, except a graphic card, since modern ones were, still are, and will be probably until H2 2022 impossible to purchase.
I installed my old NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970 in my computer.
Hence, it is NOT compatible with Windows 11.
I'm pretty sure I won't be alone with this issue, unless bitcoin value goes to $0.
"...due be officially released around November or December this year..."
The lone man in a booth ordering three pies before his appetizer has even arrived.
The overweight guy walks into the gym for the first time and asks his PT if he can run a marathon next week.
A guy orders some krill eggs online and begins looking into registering as a zoo.
I've got a million metaphors. You can't just drop the cack-smelling heap of Win10 that you made on our shoes and then tell us the next one is worth buying, @holes.
Okay, I'm retired but keep good with a few of my old customers and a while back two of them were given laptops to play with when they first had to work from home.
Just a couple of Thinkpads I had lying around running a latest Cinnamon Mint of some sort with full printer compatibility (a Brother Laser IIRC) and their 'fave' internet thingy (Firefox).
They are not the most IT tech folk (they say that's why they pay me the big bucks 'lol') but both heard about the new Windows 11 and how it probably won't work on their newish work machines.
They want me to install that same motor (OS - they are truckies) I had on the laptops because they never had any problems at all with them and realised that most of their computer stuff was all based online.
Now, if these guys feel comfortable using an alternative to MS because they basically live 'in the Cloud' (for better or worse) then I can see the potential for other smaller businesses looking to do the same.
Certainly in my part of the woods (actually, desert) businesses simply don't have the big bucks to be buying new hardware just to run a new OS even allowing for the continued current Windows 10 support.
Food for thought for some, I suppose.
Still looking in my pocket for the big bucks ---------------------------------------------------------^^
I'm sure this will kickstart the legacy market.
I'm doing a fair amount of work recovering data trapped in older applications and supplying it in the form of an application that will run on older or newer versions of Windows.
Newer apps seem to take a slap-dash approach to accuracy on the basis that quantity of data has ballooned, it is impossible to achieve precision. A good example of that is bank reconciliation apps that take their input from a bank feed and [allegedly] spit out a set of accounts at the other end. This Android trend will accelerate this, people will follow like sheep, sideline their accountants, and get devoured by HMRC. Ok I've digressed from the main point, but you mark my words, what is happening now in the "App" world is really not healthy.
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