back to article EU court rules in Telenet copyright case: ISPs can be forced to hand over some customer data use details

Europe’s top court has ruled ISPs can be forced to hand over the details of customers who are alleged to have downloaded material illegally online - but only if they meet certain criteria. That’s the latest judgement in another case involving Cyprus-based Mircom International Content Management Consulting, and Belgian ISP …

  1. This post has been deleted by its author

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Has nobody mentioned the existence of VPN's or guest WiFi options?

  3. FuzzyTheBear

    the what ?

    the " Ondernemingsrechtbank Antwerpen." yeah .. i can see a bunch of you guys ( including me ) trying to pronounce that

    over and over again ..desperately trying to get it right :D

    1. That Badger

      Re: the what ?

      "Enterprise Court". It really sounds like a fake thing, but then again, so is Belgium.

      1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

        Re: the what ?

        It really sounds like a fake thing, but then again, so is Belgium.

        You are Otto von Bismark and I claim my five gold marks.

    2. vektorweg

      Re: the what ?

      How can you tell you pronounce it wrong? x)

      Its just like German, but most stuff is written and spoken soft. Business rights bank or Unternehmensrechtsbank (German).

      1. Ordinary Donkey

        Re: the what ?

        And just to anglicise it a bit more, Business in this case is written as Undertaking.

        Undertakings' rights bank. The only part that isn't like English is the verb to take. Think of taking as nomming and you're there.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: the what ?

          Undertaking or not, I'm pretty sure most business owners would object to being called undertakers.

          Even those who make a killing :)

  4. vektorweg

    Intellectual Property is a deceptive misnomer

    Intellectual Property is an umbrella term for patents, copyright and trademarks. Each of these categories describe very different concepts. Mixing them together will only cause confusion and giving it a right's owner's favorable spin in name slants a discussion.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    I bet that Mircom, bought the rights *based* on the infringement.

    i.e. they searched for suitable infringement FIRST, then bought the rights SECOND, so they could make a business model of pursuing that infringement. The EU law in this case creates the business model.

    It maybe even didn't buy the rights, the contract may just give them a part share in any profits they can make from the shakedown. Why pay for the rights to a speculative business model for stuff that is shovelware?

    They likely pick the intersection {kinky} & {widely shared} & {embarrasing}, and now get the private details from IP addresses, file civil lawsuits, run publicity emphasizing the {kinky/embarrasing} nature of the lawsuit, get a cash settlement. Investors happy! IPO, riches! Yachts etc. A shakedown business model, then give lobby money to EU for lowering the barrier to enforcement. More profits! More yachts!

    Once they've got the business model working, obviously, you could automate it, send out automated threatening letters. Why bother writing *individual* targetted letters, just write carefully crafted ones, letters know to elicit payment quickly, bulk automated letters instead making generic threats: "Someone in your household downloaded porn from one or more of the following list of {super nasty, fairly nasty, pervert, sick, borderline illegal, kardasian sex tape...}. To avoid a public legal enforcement action against your household, pay us our danegeld. You have 7 days to comply.

    Of course they won't know if their teenage boy or husband or grandad did, and they'll pay. And they'll wonder..... Did Gramps download a Kardasian sex tape? Ewwww, yuck, sicko..... Can I trust him around the family poodle? Just pay it off and hope it doesn't happen again!

    Danegeld, of course, you're an easy mark, so the next threatening letter arrives quicker as the business model requires growth in profits!

    Thank you EU! How did that "IP economy" thing work out for you? Did rights holders use it to dodge tax licensing those IP assets from tax havens? Did they establish monopolies by blocking competitors using specious IP claims? Did they grab other companies assets by surrounded their markets with land mine patent? EU, Are you the baddies?

    Are you the baddies?

  6. Evil Genius

    Just look up ASC:Law, Golden Eye international, Davenport Lyons and their speculative invoicing scam.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      For those not understanding your reference, here is a summary article on ACS:Law

      And the matching Hitler rant for Andrew Crossley's downfall:

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Add Prenda Law to that list.

  7. Ashto5

    Very apt

    Bunch of w@@@@@s prosecuted by bunch of w@@@@@s for another bunch of w@@@@@s.

    It just sort of writes itself.

  8. YetAnotherJoeBlow


    If I was an ISP, I would set very short leases and rhen randomly issue a new lease - all running in memory only.

    1. JimboSmith Silver badge

      Re: Leases

      I worked during the dialup years for a firm with an internet forum on one of their websites. A member of this forum was giving away the endings and major rug pulls to films. Think along the lines of who Kevin Spacey actually was in the Usual Suspects or Bruce Willis in 6th sense etc. However the day of or day after release not 6 months later when most people who wanted to would have seen the film. One studio complained and asked for this users IP address. Some forum members also complained.

      The company checked with the ISP and they assigned IP addresses dynamically against a customer number. If the customer logged out a new Address was assigned even if they'd been gone a minute or so. This meant in theory they could identify the user but the bloke I spoke to said they would want a court order before doing the work to find out who it was and release it. We relayed this back to the UK arm of the studio concerned. To keep them happy we banned or blocked the user concerned and deleted their posts.

      Studio lawyer said he was quite relieved as he had no idea what arguments he could take to court to convince a judge to issue an order. Not the crime of the century.

    2. Potemkine! Silver badge

      Re: Leases

      In some countries there are laws against that. They have to keep records for a certain duration or face punishment.

  9. tiggity Silver badge

    IP address is a bit meaningless

    I have a "guest" wifi network (no password as its simpler for visitors & live in a rural area so only a handful of neighbours or their visitors could jump on it anyway) in addition to main one, so visitors can get their social media fix, check emails or whatever. Its separate (& locked down) from "main" network so visitors cannot do any harm, but as only have one IP address from ISP will send any visitor outgoing messages from same IP address when it goes out. So IP address would not even be from a "household member" if a visitor did a torrent (though if they did, it would be painful for them, copper only in the sticks so although unlimited download / upload limits from ISP, if a visitor wants to download anything a long old wait compared to fibre)

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: IP address is a bit meaningless

      This is a legal defence in some countries: the ip address itself does not necessarily tie the infringement to a particular device and, hence, user. However, it can also be argued that providing wifi access, without any kind of precautions, could make you an accessory. This certainly was the case until a few years ago in Germany but was revised, I think, for being too broad.

      Still, even with guest networks, it's worth taking a few precautions such as ensuring devices are isolated from each other by default, because you don't want to be accused of letting people hack each other…

    2. adam 40 Silver badge

      Re: IP address is a bit meaningless

      Same here, but I'm NOT in a rural setting, so people passing the house can use it any time.

      Another thing worth pointing out is if you use bittorrent for copyrighted material, turn off the upload option for those files. If you need to build up 'points' then share stuff like open source software only.

      THat was you can't even be (rightly) accused of sharing the copyrighted stuff.

    3. Velv

      Re: IP address is a bit meaningless

      This is a scenario that has not been tested in Court. Does the Account Holder bear responsibility for what is done on their ISP connection?

      A car can be caught on camera speeding. DVLA write to the Registered Keeper asking who was driving, and the law requires the Registered Keeper to identify the driver. A similar law does not exist for Internet accounts

    4. tip pc Silver badge

      Re: IP address is a bit meaningless

      “ Its separate (& locked down) from "main" network so visitors cannot do any harm,”

      In what way is it locked down if visitors can do what they want, like torrent?

      What’s your definition of doing harm?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmmm. The Remain camp are noticable by their silence on this one.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Only cos I'm having lunch.


    Porn - is it not free to watch ?

    These are porn films? There is so much free porn, why would you steal it?

    Or is the "free" on well known sites also stolen?

    Is it safe to watch because you watch online and do not download the whole thing. When you not actually watching, there is no copy on your hard disk to give to someone else.

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