Re: Good for HMRC
"If you pay a lower percentage of your income as tax than anyone else earning the same amount you are a tax dodger, says everyone who pays their fair share!"
>> But its the right amount as per the law, and that's what matters really.
"Contractor pay is inflated to begin with, don't give me some nonsense about how it works out the same, the same work I do goes for 400 or more a day as a contractor, I get a lot less that that"
>> I can see where the animosity is coming from now.
"but pay a higher total percentage in tax than a contractor doing the same,"
>> You pay a higher % (Marginally) but a significantly lower ££ amount.
I think you need to decide if the problem is that HMRC don't get enough tax ££
Or just that we get paid more in general.
IR35 only addresses one of these, you need to take the other one up with your employer.
My tax in my last perm role was < £10k a year, its consistently £20-30k a year as a contractor, So if I stop contracting HMRC lose money.
"I contribute my fair share, they don't, end of."
>> I love the "fair share" argument, you don't get to decide what my fair share is, HMRC do, I pay *exactly* as much as I have to and not a penny more, my accountant checks that its all within the current laws and regulations.
"So what I get one day off in 14"
>> Your working conditions are between you and your employer, if your employer is that bad change jobs.. You could even have a go at contracting, Apparently it pays really well and is very easy to do.
Of course, should you try your hand at contracting you wont have any issues, because even if the client determines that you are outside IR35 you will still put the whole lot through PAYE and pay 40p+ on every quid you earn?
"that doesn't make up for the contractors getting paid twice and taxed half as much as I do"
>> Its much less than twice and much more than half.
Once you take into account the total cost of employment of a permanent member of staff, even just the pension contributions Employers NI & Tax" employing a permanent member of staff is more expensive than just the Gross figure you see on your pay slip.
As for the tax, Ive never cared to work out what my overall % is, Its difficult because I dont take all of the money that my company gets paid out all at once.. but its probably somewhere between 20-30% of my gross (Thats a proper finger in the air guess) Assuming that you are in the lower tax bracket and have the normal £12k allowance Ill bet your overall tax % is ~19% Maybe a bit less depending if you offload money into a pension (Salary sacrificed and tax free of course).
"If that contractor wage was taxed with PAYE they would pay more tax, so compared to me and other employees they are reducing contributions, regardless of how much more in total they get paid than me. Where does the extra money go? In their pocket, not to the NHS not the police or to fight covid,"
>> In their pocket and then it gets circulated around the local economy as it is spent, We're not Scrooge McDuck, We're not just hoarding all the cash ffs.
"but to your second home and Tesla payments, grubby thieves!"
>> There's that green eyed monster again, I thought we'd seen the last of him.
Seriously though, I don't have a second home, I don't know a contractor who does, and Teslas are hardly the height of luxurious expense... I know permie staff who are driving round in significantly more expensive cars provided by their employers.. Again Speak to HR if you're not happy with your working conditions.
I have to admit I did once look at the cost of chartering a helicopter into the office once when I found out that my client had a helipad on the roof... but the cost was (shock) prohibitively expensive :)
"You are either directly benefiting from this clearly unfair situation, or you are not very bright,"
>> And we're into the personal attacks, that took longer than expected.
Bright enough to recognise a shitty employer and leave for something better...
"To give a specific example based on ability and contribution to the business: SW tester contractors get paid more than SW developers, which proves that skill and responsibility have less of an impact on pay than whether you a contactor or employed, how is that right?"
>> I'm not sure I follow your logic here, permanent software testers get paid about the same as
permanent software developers, its a skilled job, most of the testers I know ARE developers, they have different tools and goals but they write code just the same as the rest of us.
Even if they were inside IR35, they would still earn more than a permie they'd just pay more tax, We're getting back to the uncertainty about what you're really annoyed with.
Again, If you're not happy with your salary, I cant help you, speak to HR.
"It's either you get paid more OR you pay less tax for losing 1/14 days now both, contractors make a free choice to get both and still cry all over the internet about it."
>> Its not just paid holidays we lose, we also get no sick pay, no paid bank holidays, pretty much enforced unpaid leave over xmas, no pension contributions, no redundancy, no notice period, no job security, (Ive started work at 9 one morning and been sent home by 10 because the project has been cancelled, when was the last time that happened to a permie?)... We also have to pay for accountants & insurance, save enough to cover potential sickness & holidays. I think that list is long enough but its by no means exhaustive.
Like I said, I'm unclear if your complaint is that we don't pay enough tax of just that we earn more than you, you seem to swing from one to the other but mainly focus on the latter, so I guess your main problem is that you're not happy with your working conditions, I sympathise, I have definitely been there.
If you want to have a bash at contracting I'd be happy to give advice and details of agents and accountants, I don't hold a grudge because someone has a different opinion than me :)
As a bonus, if you do start contracting you will likely be forced inside IR35 now anyway so you wont have to worry about any of this (And you will *STILL* take home more than a permie).
Well, this has been a bit more of an essay than expected.. I'd better get back to counting that hoard of krugerrands I've been keeping in my swimming pool sized vault. :)
Have a good one.